Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #482 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 482 Saturday, 4 April 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: The April Fools issue (ET481) NEWS: Baltimore P2 show cancelled? NEWS: Tony Geballe in Boston NEWS: Hackett, The Tokyo Tapes NEWS: News from Belew GIG BIZ: BLUE ticket GIG BIZ: tickets Pat Mastelotto - What's he been up to? 8 Pieces of Mish Mosh. Is there a connection? New Mike Giles' CD ?? Fripp on "The Big One" fripp, was the future, now what? Discipline Cover / Oscillography Crimson / members mentioned on MTV? In The Wake Of Posiedon Discipline symbol No news, no gig review Robert Fripp and Drum & Bass ET: Classic/Romantic Fripp's spelling Have an Open Mind, please! Central Park '74/Going far in #481 sleepless yet again Mutron effects Re: Heptaparaparshinokh MTV News - not so shocking Sounds familiar In defence of Spice Girls B.L.U.E / Projekct 2 on MTV Funky Sleeples Fingers my prog classifications seeking Get Crafty ProjeKct 2 CD's, ET 481, two basses ProjeKCt Two Live Envy ETers at HoB The Great Deceiver April Fools Digest? RF&LCG transcriptions 10+ survey results Belew or Sylvian FOR TREY: that lost mytical P2 track Another clue for the bagel references "Discipline" cover art GIG REVIEW: House of BLUES Projekct TWO ReVIEW ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Saturday, 4 April 1998, 12.24pm From: Toby Howard (ET Moderaotr) Subject: NEWS: The April Fools issue (ET481) Well, it's time to spill the beans. The previous issue, ET #481, was an April Fool. It was a complete hoax from beginning to end, with all the posts written by Dan Kirkdorffer (ETWeb), Mike Dickson (ET distribution) and myself. I hope everyone enjoyed it. Thanks for all the mail about it -- I'm sorry I can't reply to everyone individually. The original idea came form the "Elephant Dung" posts on rec.music.progressive, by tkozal at well dot com. Thanks to him for the idea, and to regular poster Eb (gondola at deltanet dot com), who passed it onto me many months ago. And for those who replied in good faith to the posts, I hope you'll forgive us. Your replies are safely locked away in the ET archives, to avoid any embarrassment! Now, back to normal business ... did I say say "normal"? :-) Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 14:24:58 -0500 (EST) From: jack badger Subject: NEWS: Baltimore P2 show cancelled? The May 2 P2 show at Daytona's in Baltimore is canceled according to Daytona's. They seemed to think the show had been moved, but I have been unable to verify this. Does anyone know about this? -- that is, has it been moved or completely erased from the itinerary? jb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 04:11:04 GMT From: strthry at afm dot org Subject: NEWS: Tony Geballe in Boston Hello all, Tony Geballe, DGM recording artist and guitarist with the Trey Gunn Band, will be performing on solo 12-string guitar in Boston, Friday and Saturday April 10-11, at the Charles Playhouse Bar. Also playing those nights will be a band featuring Stick player Victor McSurely. Tony will also be appearing in Baltimore at Orion Sound Studios on May 8, opening for Annie Haslam. Best, String Theory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:06:27 -0500 From: Kudos Management Subject: NEWS: Hackett, The Tokyo Tapes STEVE HACKETT THE TOKYO TAPES 2-CD/VHS Video/Laserdisc Release date 27 April Camino Records CAMCD15 Encouraged by the renewed clamour of interest in classic rock material Steve Hackett, the inspirational musician and writer, is releasing a 2-CD set of concert recordings made with such highly regarded contemporaries as John Wetton, Ian McDonald and Chester Thompson. "One of our fans observed", says Hackett, that "great music is timeless and not affected by changes of style, haircuts or even revolutions. We wondered what it would be like if occasional members of bands like Frank Zappa's, Genesis, King Crimson, Asia, and Weather Report all got together for one night!" That one night became a Japanese adventure when Hackett, hailed as one of the most original and prolific composers of his own generation, assembled this diverse and musically gifted band. It's fair to say that a Rock Family Tree of this line-up would cover a whole forest! Messrs. Hackett, Wetton, McDonald, Thompson & Colbeck have a whale of a time storming through a selection of 20th Century classics from their collective back catalogues. "Watcher of the Skies", "The Court of the Crimson King", "Los Endos", "In The Heat of the Moment" and "Firth of Fifth" are all given the Tokyo treatment. Hackett remarks ... "Each one of these guys has literally stunned me by his brilliance and versatility over the years ... I always wanted musicians who felt at home no matter how far from their original routes they strayed. We tried to cover the more salubrious moments of the chaps' history - Ian with Talk To The Wind and Court of the Crimson King - plus Genesis Revisited favourites such as Watcher etc. and John Wetton's gorgeous acoustic version of Heat of the Moment which I think allows the song to speak so much more eloquently than the blockbuster original." The Tokyo Tapes also includes two brand new studio recordings by Hackett. When CHESTER THOMPSON was playing with Weather Report (over 20 years ago) little did he suspect he would be trading his coveted place with that much loved jazz - based experimental outfit for the shores of England and the Genesis crowd, hailing from a totally different background. You just couldn't get two more diametrically opposed approaches & cultures - the slow, considered European versus the spontaneous cool American. Yet Chester came, saw and conquered - always affirming that a simple religious faith merely made him a willing instrument in the hands of a greater power. JOHN WETTON, by comparison, had served a long and distinguished apprenticeship in so many British bands, quickly transforming them. Eventually he got his chance to front an early Crimson line up and just about killed the audience with the power of every bass note, turning it into a lead instrument and quite literally stealing the thunder from a generation of bass players. Then there was that enormous voice which had such soul and heart! Nobody sounds like John, his vocal and bass sound are equally individual. He recorded 'Larks' Tongues In Aspic', 'Starless and Bible Black' and 'Red' with the legendary King Crimson line-up of himself, Robert Fripp and Bill Bruford before moving on to form UK with Bruford, Eddie Jobson and Allan Holdsworth and then the all-conquering Asia whose first record was the biggest selling pop album in the world in 1982. IAN McDONALD similarly spent time with King Crimson - inventing them in fact - and was largely responsible for writing and producing their debut album 'In The Court of the Crimson King'. A young Hackett was stunned at Ian's versatility and vision with every instrument he breathed on, not to mention what an incredible songwriter had emerged as early as '69. Ian was equally at home with the darker material as with the pastoral. He was a classical musician, a jazz musician, a rocker - all the contradictions resolved into one powerful package of influences - transforming and reconciling the differences ... a complete original! In 1976 he moved to New York where he still lives today and formed the band Foreigner who defined the emerging sound of American FM Rock, co-producing and arranging their first three hit albums. JULIAN COLBECK shares Steve's passion for Bach and is no mean improviser himself; incredibly articulate - a writer of the occasional best selling book - and at times the one man orchestra, others simply the meanest ivory-tinkler alive. A veteran of projects with Jon Anderson, Bill Bruford and Steve Howe and the Yes offshoot ABWH, Julian has proved a great friend and foil to Hackett in the "Many Sides"/Sicilian period where the two man team showed that "music without props" could still be uniquely visual by internalising that vision. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:45:52 -0800 From: "Andy Gower" Subject: NEWS: News from Belew For all Crim fans out there, please look at Adrian's corner at Rob Murphee's excellent web site. Very important info. http://web.dbtech.net/~rhino/corner.htm ProjeKct 2 is coming to Canada!!! (I hope this isn't a tease. Vancouver is the most beautiful city Bobby!) Andy Gower http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Arena/2763/index.html ------------------------------ From: marc_i_roemer_at_hhes at ccMail dot Census dot GOV Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 08:27:47 -0500 Subject: GIG BIZ: BLUE ticket I have an extra ticket to the BLUE show at the Birchmere April 15th. I do not know if the show has sold out, so I offer the inticement of no service charges and free delivery (if you're in the DC area of course). Email me. Marc marc dot i dot roemer at ccmail dot census dot gov "It's all Folk Music...you ever hear a horse play music?"...Doc Watson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:07:32 -0500 (EST) From: Jefferson Marker Lawrence Subject: GIG BIZ: tickets i am looking for tickets to either show for B.L.U.E. show in Baltimore. Please let me know if and how many you have available. Send personally ... i will miss it if posted to the group. thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:09:29 -0500 From: Tom Kelley Subject: Pat Mastelotto - What's he been up to? Just curious, with all the talk about the various ProjeKcts, I noticed that Pat Mastelotto has not been involved (so far), though I understand that he will be a part of a future ProjeKct. What I'm really wondering is what has Pat been up to all this time? I have been enjoying "Damage" (Fripp/Sylvian) with Pat on drums, which I thought I would never find, but it popped up used in a local store. Will we be seeing any new, non-Crim releases with Pat behind the kit? Tom Kelley tkelley at nyrrc dot org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:07:55 -0500 From: John Barnas Subject: 8 Pieces of Mish Mosh. Hello spaceboys and spacegirls, Quickly now, 1) JB's entry for the title of the new KC Tribute: Elephant's Memory Lane. 2) I think ProjeKCt 2 is the coolest music happening on the planet right now. To those of you who do not like P2 for whatever the reason: I'm sorry. I am truly, truly sorry. That stuff just zaps my spine every time! As all the kind Crimfolk have been saying, "...to each his/her own...". I just wish you could share the vibe. It makes me feel great. Words came to mind: Sonic Smorgasbord!? Can't wait for Time Grooves ... 3) Hey Robert, Trey and Adrian: Although I don't think it needs it, would you change the current P2 playing because the audience has a (constructive) suggestion? Are we a part of it to that extent? 4) ET'ers gotta check out Elephant Walk. It's neato! 5) Got an intuition-type flash thing hit me - it could have been the calzone- that it will be very worthwhile to be at the P2 Frippadelphia show. 6) Are there any Crimfolk gatherings planned for Frippadelphia? Can any ET'ers give us info on the Bellevue Ballroom? Please private Email or announce according to Toby's wishes, of course. 7) Does anyone find any resemblances on P2Live to Eno's stuff in The Drop, particularly #9,10,13,16? It's only talk. 8) In my other vision - maybe it was the kielbasa - I'm unclear if it was a Fripp or KC album, but the title of it was: "INTEGRITY" Sweet dreams, John p.s. Max fom Italy is hilarious! Don't you think? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:48:44 -0500 From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: Is there a connection? It can not be mere coincidence that both King Crimson and Monty Python will be celebrating their 30th anniversaries next year, can it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:27:07 -0500 From: Claude Girard Subject: New Mike Giles' CD ?? A friend of mine, working at HMV, stumbled on a line of their CD database listing : "Departure" by Mike Giles on Windsong, 1997 (European import). Could it be.........Satan....:-). No, could it be OUR Micheal Giles, drummer par excellence?. Anybody know anything about this release? Claude ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:31:24 EST From: Biffyshrew Subject: Fripp on "The Big One" Jonathan Korein wrote: >Matthias Miller says that Fripp takes a wicked blues solo >in Peter Gabriel's "Waiting for the Big One", but I >stronglh suspect he is mistaken. I believe Fripp plays >rhythm guitar on that album while Dick Hunter (I might have >gotten the name wrong) gets to do the leads. >From an article by Barbara Charone on the recording >sessions for Gabriel's first album in _Circus_ magazine: "On a blues tune called 'Waiting For The Big One,' Fripp is having as much fun as Gabriel, returning to his forgotten roots. 'You should have seen him the other night,' Peter said radiating pride and confidence. 'We got him drunk and he was playin' *blues* guitar! "Fuckin' good" he kept saying!'" Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html (...and Trey's display said "In space there is no EAST.") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 08:48:20 -0800 (PST) From: noel swasta Subject: fripp, was the future, now what? What was going through Mr. Fripps mind in the 70's. Was he thinking about playing what he is now? Was his mind so creative that even while they pumped out the greatest tunes like "One more red nightmare" etc. was he thinking about THRAK and his Projekcts? If he was WOW. I make myself believe, seeing as how i really have no clue, that he was bored with his sound so instead of going with the flow, he actually participated in the creation of NEW MUSIC. That is probably one of the hardest things to do in the entire universe, create a style of music that will not be taken mainstream. Very difficult. There is one problem though, I miss the crazy distorted notes and exciting creations that the old KC had. I know times change and so do ideas and styles, but am i the only one in the world that loves crimson but wants them to stop for a moment and realize that they are bleeding this space/futuristic improv thing a little. Mr. Fripp and the rest of KC , please write just one song, just one that rocks the way you use too!! NOEL SWASTA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:48:45 -0600 From: daniel farris Subject: Discipline Cover / Oscillography In #479, krowan at aibs dot org (Kevin Rowan) wrote: > Does anyone know what, if anything, the figure on the cover > of Disipline is? and, in #480, Malhomme Olivier wrote: > it is -at least , and to my knowledge- a sign you find on > the book of kells (sp?). We know Mr. Fripp was quite involve > at a time in some form of esoterism (still to remain > prudent). I certainly wouldn't pretend to know exactly what this means, but I'm almost certain that the fact that it is one unbroken line is significant to its meaning. Also, I don't know if Fripp does oscillography intentionally, but Frippertronics is strikingly coherent on an oscilloscope. In fact, oscillography is something I have, in the past, spent a lot of time doing and I have seen shapes in my own music that were so similar to this symbol that it couldn't be ignored. It is likely that the similarity between this symbol and those seen in oscillography is entirely coincidental and that Robert has a very sensible music-related explanation for what it really means. Also, Darren Franck wrote (about Islands): > Definitely a > headphone kind of album...can't hear most of the sounds when > playing it on the stereo. It might be time to invest in a really great pair of speakers. Forgive me, but I will always choose a great pair of speakers over even the finest headphones. And on the subject of speakers (at Toby's indulgence, I'm sure), Robert mentions in the liner notes to a few DGM releases that the records are mastered on Truth monitors. I must admit, I'm intrigued. Have any UK ET readers had the opportunity to hear these? I use Genelecs, but I'm always on the lookout for other top-notch speakers. I'd love to hear them. Anyone? Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham Alabama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 98 11:09:00 PST From: Matt Walsh Subject: Crimson / members mentioned on MTV? One of those things that makes you wonder if certain things happen on purpose... I left something at home yesterday when I went to work, so I went back home for my lunch break. Turned on the TV, and MTV just happened to be on. They originally talked about how some song on the new Pearl Jam album sounds like Led Zeppelin's "Going To California", they then when on to mention that another recently released album is under scrutiny for "borrowing" off Led Zeppelin. The album? Bruford Levin Upper Extremeties. In one of the songs, Levin sounds like he's playing the riff from Kashmir. (and yes, it sounds awfully close). When they asked Levin about it, his response (paraphrasing) was "I didn't think I'd get caught, if they [Led Zeppelin] want the writing credits for it, what little there is, there more than welcome to have it". They then, in typical MTV fashion, botched the next news item as they announced that Levin & Bruford would be joining Fripp & Belew for ProjeKct 2 for a small tour. Someone didn't do their homework, as obviously the 2 of them are not in P2. They did show the cover of the "Space Grooves" album, which is blue with a white border and a red arch up top. (reminds me a little of 3oaPP). It's a shame that this is the only way that these guys can get coverage on MTV, but at least they played a small piece of B.L.U.E. and gave out Papa Bear Records phone number. Just thought I'd mention that little tidbit of info in case anyone was interested. Oh, to the person who mentioned a similarity between King Crimson and Faith No More... you're talking about 2 of my all-time favorite bands here, but I really don't see any connection between the 2, apart from both bands doing something different and unique (and both being amazing bands). Could you imagine Mike Patton as KC's vocalist? That would just be too good to be true (sorry Adrian)... the man's range and ability to sing in ANY music style is unparalleled. Later, Matthew Walsh Software Engineer - Strategic Management Group mattw at smginc dot com mattmonkw at aol dot com Matt's personal CD jukebox - Currently playing and annoying co-workers with: Paradise Lost - "One Second" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:50:31 PST From: "Alfred Dodson" Subject: In The Wake Of Posiedon To those that own the Definitive Edition Remasters of "In The Wake of Posiedon". 1. On track 3-Cadence And Cascade about 4min. 5sec. into the song it sounds like it skips. I cannot fully tell since my CD player doesn't register any skip on its time counter or is this a bad edit job done at time of the original recording in 1970.If anyone can tell me please E-Mail me. Review: I just recently purchased this CD and being an avid 80's crimhead I found it a refreshing audio feeling. You can definitely hear how ITCOTCK and 21stCSM are used as an arrangement base.However, it does also show the growing fascination with instrumental texture and dynamics (ex. The DEVIL's TRIANGLE) I also found the snippet of background voice from the song ITCOTCK tucked away inside this piece near the end.Overall, a fantastic sequel to the first album as well as an artistic breakthrough of what was to become the Robert FRipp version of King Crimson for the '70s.(since Greg Lake was quoted as saying that KC didn't exist after he left the band) Alfred Dodson adodson19 at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:05:36 +0100 From: Vince Millett Subject: Discipline symbol > Does anyone know what, if anything, the figure on the cover > of Disipline is? Kevin Rowan The symbol comes from either the Book of Kells or the Lindisfarne Gospel, both of which are pre-medieval Celtic Christian manuscripts. I found the symbol in a a book I have called "Celtic Art, the method of construction" by George Bain. It is vague about which of the two manuscripts it came from. Suffice it to say there is nothing Satanic about it- on the contrary it is from a decidedly Christian source. Vince Millett Secret Archives of the Vatican ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:06:52 EST From: KB 305 Subject: No news, no gig review Thanks for the best ET in recent memory. I was watching my VHS of Live in Japan again last night, and wondering exactly how Adrian manages to dance in 4/4 regardless of the meter of the song he's playing, and now I think I know: he's not listening to anyone else. K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:26:51 -0500 From: "Pat and Julian" Subject: Robert Fripp and Drum & Bass Hello Groons! Well..., I'm just sitting around listening to Bark Psychosis' "Game Over" CD. All you Crimheads should own this piece of aluminum. :) The track "Murder City" rawks!!! Anyway, I just followed up this CD with PLUG(Luke Vibert)-"Drum & Bass For Papa". While listening to this, Robert Fripp popped up in my mind. I'm thinking: "Wow! What would Drum & Bass sound like with Robert Fripp as a participant?" I'm really getting off on this idea. I mean, the man has collaborated with The Orb, Future Sound Of London, No-Man, and the like..., and R.F. is pretty much an innovator within this genre(the ambient electronic). Drum & Bass is fairly new, uncharted territory. How about a collaboration With Robert Fripp and SQUAREPUSHER. Woohoo! Or, just Robert Fripp with drum samples of Bill Bruford, while Bill B. drums over his own sampled drums beats, and Fripp shreds and soundscapes away. This idea sounds like one wild affair to me. Derek Bailey's doing it, and so is Bill Laswell. Next thing you know..., David Torn will be doing it. Hop on the wagon Mr. Fripp!!! There's money to be made my man!!! :) You do want my money, don't you? Ciao, JULIAN "The Ranting Man" BELANGER (Chatham, Ontario, Canada) Host of "Out-Bloody-Rageous!", CJAM 91.5 FM, University Of Windsor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:38:53 -0800 From: Nic dot Roozeboom at sv dot sc dot philips dot com (Nic Roozeboom) Subject: ET: Classic/Romantic Dear Fellow Reader-Contributors, Thank you to Bill Heinrichs for expanding on the notion that the classical vs romantic allusion in Tamm's book should be interpreted in terms developed by Robert Pirsig. Delighted that it did strike a note, I'd like to add some further perspectives. First of all, in an attempt to prevent flaring, I'd like to point out that the terms classical and romantic describe dimensions of a personality, not a categorisation. If a person would be referred to as classically oriented, this simply means that the romantic dimension is latent, not recognized, or underdeveloped ;-) (Mirror this phrase where applicable...) Apart from the different "motivators" for either the person with classical perception, respectively romantic perception, Pirsig also illustrates the "demotivators" of either mode of perception. Without bothering to check, I notably remember reading the parts about "fear of technology" or perhaps "fear of design" on the part of the romantically oriented. People do tend to disengage as soon as their relationship with technology and design requires active involvement on their part. (The classical counterpart to this would be, I guess, a disinterest for beauty, or a lack of understanding for any greater compelling ethical force that propels one beyond the governance of mere rules or construct.) I think a lot of people turn off to Crimson because of its greater involvement with design and intricacy - relatively so, compared to say Savage Garden or Spice Girls at one extreme, but also more so than Yes or certainly ELP. Most people who do enjoy Crimson's music have an appreciation of its Quality (whether conscious or not) - seldom just for its sounding different than most any other music (the romantic, insustainable perception), nor just for its robust design (the sordidly classical perception). Both characteristics in themselves can be gratifying of themselves, but it's something beyond and encompassing these that makes Crimson worth listening to over and over again (well, except for perhaps ... see ET's 1 thru 479 ...) Quality, Design, Appearance - Three of a Perfect Pair? (No matter how closely you study it, it remains consistent...) Regards, Nic Roozeboom PS I guess Crimson's Quality lies not just in its being able to kick butt, it's in the ability to keep doing so while seeming to add a new perspective with every impact. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:18:53 -0500 From: "earthblind, starbound" Subject: Fripp's spelling >I do find myself baffled by Fripp's, shall we say, >IDIOSYNCRATIC usage of spelling and capitalization when >titling his projects. I wonder if he's been drawing his >linguistic inspiration from random posts to Usenet. So what do you expect the new album to be called? +#\/\/^/\/\? 8|0\/\/!3? $+^|?|3$$ 2? -=- I know a monster when I see one in the mirror. --------------------==== Broken via True Love ====------------------- http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 Butcher, Rape, Smash to Pieces ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:24:51 -0800 From: "Robert Miyares" Subject: Have an Open Mind, please! Long time browser, first time submitter... I saw Projekct 2 at the House of Blues in Hollywood last week. I loved it. I have been a fan of Sr. Fripp and KC since 1975 and had I been older and my mother more lenient would have been able to witness the Fripp, Wetton, Bruford crew. Alas, I was only priveledged enough to begin my live experience with them beginning with the Savoy shows in NYC in the early 80s and have yet to miss a show in my immediate area. (I first saw Fripp in '78 sitting in with Hall & Oates at Avery Fisher Hall performing a blazing version of You Burn Me Up I'm a Cigarette during an encore--does anyone have a tape?) I read this newsletter with interest for reviews and info and am often alarmed at the attitude and opinions of the submitters. I saw the League of Gentleman at Irving Plaza before the album was released--never heard a note before the show, did not expect a version of Schizoid Man and was totally blown away. Anyone who endeavors to appreciate Fripp and CO. should never have any expectations as to what they will hear. That is part of the thrill. Before the Projekct 2 show, I had no idea what the experience would be. All I knew was that it would be improvised. I knew that Fripp could improvise so I trusted my instincts. What I got was some of the freest, uplifting and most intense (prog word) solos I have ever heard from him or any other guitar player. In fact I was heartened by the thought Projekct 2 was r&d for KC because I hoped that Fripp would get the idea that he should play more. Anyway, for anyone going to the NY shows, beware. This is not King Crimson. This is what King Crimson lacked during their last tour. Fresh, blow-out, crazy, wild soloing that at times teetered on the brink of collapse and frequently soared to heights not often reached in this retched musical world. Thank you, Mr. Fripp. Rob M. P.S. The Projekct 2 double cd (reasonably priced at the show--no tax or handling fees--is fantastic. I was amazed at how different it sounded from the show I attended. I figured that they would have had a few riffs or jams down. I figured wrong. These shows were very improvised. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:07:45 +0300 From: Selinsky Subject: Central Park '74/Going far in #481 Hi, I first wish to ask, was the last Crimson concert in Central Park, June 1, 1974, ever recorded in the way the other shows on "The Great Deciever" and "the Nightwatch" were (in otherwords, legitimate professional recording versus bootleg)? There are glowing reviews of this concert, but Fripp never mentions why it was never on TGD. All he allows, inside the 1st CD sleeve of TGD, is something like "playing live outdoors is an entirely different experience". This doesn't indicate whether it was actually recorded or not. There is also a hint in the scrapbook, where in the road diary, right before the NY concert he mentions something like "Trouser Press & Tapes, pledges not to." This sounds like an allusion to the fact that the concert would be taped for radio broadcast, or perhaps even filmed, but a promise is made not to bootleg the concert or release it "unauthorized". -George. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:03:32 EST From: Mikewyz Subject: sleepless yet again Edward said: > I think funk fingers are used on Sleepless, too. I > picture this happening as I listen, anyway. Could it be > true? I don't think so. I haven't watched it in a while, but I do remember seeing Tony slap the line on the Live in Japan ToaPP video. also, I've duplicated it w/ my thumb and Delay pedal. listen close, Funk Fingers sound slightly different.... cute April fools digest.... /\/\ \/\/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:06:46 +0900 From: drizzle Subject: Mutron effects Did Robert Fripp ever use Mutron effects? If the answer is yes,when and how? Also,what gears were used when Mr Fripp provided his sound to The Grid? Tell me please.I'll be waiting for the answer! e-mail:drizzle at ibm dot net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:22:36 -0500 From: "Taylor K. Sherman" Subject: Re: Heptaparaparshinokh Seems to me like this is the name of some dead Egyptian so-and-so. Or maybe one of their gods. Sounds right, and it rang a bell the first time I saw it in this context. Speaking of which, anyone out there remember the name of one of the new songs Trey Gunn played on his last tour? The best I can do is: "Heirarchigigtithafloptical" I remember the take on "heirarchical", and several references to computer stuff ("giga" and "floptical"), and some fuzzy "ff" or "th" sounds in the middle, but that's about it. :) I also wonder if the song "Arrakis" on t3rdS is inspired by Dune, or if he just thought the word was cool. :) Some of the other titles sound Dune-familiar, but I don't know. Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 00:34:15 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: MTV News - not so shocking > From: Jared M Rodecker > Subject: KC on eMpTV > > If anyone was watching eMpTV Tuesday night, March 24, at > about midnight cst USA, there was a news bit about the new > Bruford/Levin project and they even mentioned a PROJEKT 2 > gig. That's because the chief news editor for MTV News is the same Michael Shore whose lengthy essay can be found in the book for "The Great Deceiver" boxset. He might not be able to change the face of the network, but he fires his shots where he's able. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:32:18 -0500 From: Kevin Rowan Subject: Sounds familiar Forgive me if this has been brought up before, but I read in interview with Yes once and they said when they heard the opening to 21st Century Schizoid Man that they loved it so much they pretty much plagarized it for the beginning of Heart of the Sunrise. They were amazed that nobody called them on it. I never really noticed the similarity until I read that. Has anyone else noticed that? Also, just to put my two cents in about the Bruford question and drummers in general, I think that art rock drummers are the superior drummers in rock: Nick Mason, Carl Palmer, Neil Peart, and even Phil Collins on albums like Nursery Crime and Foxtrot. And Mr. Bruford would definately be in there. But I still have to do with Michael Giles as KCs best. The drumming on ITCOTCK is an artform all by its self. Kevin J. Rowan Office Manager/Project Associate AIBS - SPARS (703) 834-0812 x100 krowan at aibs dot org All you touch and All you see is All your life Will every be. -Pink Floyd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 18:07:27 +0100 (BST) From: "A. De Wailly" Subject: In defence of Spice Girls I think that many ETers are very proud of listening to KC and so they keep on criticizing the Spice Girls.They won't get it when Fripp will play soundscapes (or whatever he will have invented then) on Ginger's seventh solo album of 2013. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 19:17:02 -0800 From: Christian Stroucken Subject: B.L.U.E / Projekct 2 on MTV Ok, my student life is pathetic enough so that I can spend time watching MTV (it's not worth listening to anymore...). Oh well, enough of that - The story was initially about Pearl Jam ripping a melody off of Led Zeppelin and then moseyed into Tony Levin playing Kashmir on his bass during a B.L.U.E. jam. They quoted him saying, "If they want my publishing rights on that, they can have it - it won't add up to much anyway." I don't think Page/Plant care... Then, they mentioned Projekct 2 coming out soon including the "guitar wizard" Robert Fripp. The cover art looked a little boring (pronounced a square and a line), but that's just an opinion. Well, back to work..... Yes, I'm Ready to Rock Christian Stroucken ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 19:57:39 -0500 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Funky Sleeples Fingers In ET 480 Edward Banatt queried the following: >Hey ET, >Sleepless was recorded around the time TLevin was with >PGabriel recording SO? This is the spot on your King >Crimson timeline where you can find the invention by Messrs Levin >Marotta and Gabriel of the "funk fingers." >I think funk fingers are used on Sleepless, too. I picture this >happening as I listen, anyway. >Could it be true? >EB Ed; I have not seen the Sleeples video in quite some time, but I remember seeing Tony using his funk-fingers in this video. Is this just a trick of my mind? Maybe another ET'r will chime in on this one. Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 19:20:23 UT From: "Jonathan Korein" Subject: my prog classifications People talk about romantic and classicist. I don't know what they're talking about, but here is how I break down prog: ELP and Yes are dead center. I don't particularly like them, but I would say that they are undisputedly, the definition of progressive rock: complicated, long-form music which bridges classical and rock and a few other genres. Rush and Dream Theater epitomize a kind of prog which is Metal-influenced, particularly Dream Theater. I haven't really heard much Genesis or Jethro Tull, so I don't Know how they fit in, but people say they are prog. Crim 72-74 is a kind of dark, heavy prog. I would say that the Band Laundry fits in this category. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:13:56 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Pinke Subject: seeking Get Crafty I'm hoping someone can help me help a friend. He's looking for a copy of the League of Crafty Guitarists' album entitled Get Crafty. His copy got lost and my copy is buried in my parents' attic, several states away. Anyone know where he can get a replacement? Private email to me please -- bpinke at indiana dot edu. I'd also greatly appreciate any help obtaining a copy of Damage for me! Thanks, Brian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 08:48:25 PST From: "James Hogard" Subject: ProjeKct 2 CD's, ET 481, two basses A few observations (and if I'm lucky, a point or two): The comments of many ETers attest that the live ProjeKct 2 is very different from _Space_Groove_. I understand that Mr. Fripp and his cohorts were in a high state of excitement when they recorded the CD, but IMO it might have been a better representation of the unit had they played a few shows (or rehearsed, even) before putting out product. With _Space_Groove_ and now _Time_Groove_ in imminent release, Mr. Fripp once again runs the risk of disparagement as a money-grubber, and it seems to me that the two albums are not a true portrait of the band. I would prefer to hear P2 as I'd be likely to hear them were I to attend a show. ET staff: great job on the 4/1 issue! I'm red-faced to admit that I read four articles before I realized something was up (8-tracks, indeed!). I shudder to imagine the possible responses to some of those entries. What kind of music requires two basses? (I know, that wasn't actually posed as such, but bear with me.) If you subscribe to Mr. Fripp's interesting idea that music comes into one from an exterior source (I don't think he's being literal, but I hestitate to state that with certainty), then some specific musics would require the addition of multiple low-end guys to the performance. This seems to happen (in a more general, and more mundane, sense) in the "music industry"; rock or country or blues bands have a specified palette of instruments with which to work (Out on the fringes, though, it has been my experience that the group writes the music and not the other way around (preferable, IMO). There have been two bassists in my band just because, well, there were two bassists in the band. The sound we made was a product of the band members). That's the main reason that "unusual" instrument combinations are uncommon (especially in these times of _wonderful_ musical electronics); it's very difficult to attain monetary success in this business by being completely original. By and large, corporate music is looking for bands that fit pre-set guidelines. hogard ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 00:21:01 +0200 From: Massimo Bracco Subject: ProjeKCt Two Live Envy Damn Yankees ! Please stop torturing us poor Europeans with enthusiastic reviews of Projeckt Two concerts, since you know sadistically we won't have them here... The only place for live Space Groove here in Europe seems to be London, but why not some France or ITALY ??? Okay we know that Japan is a huge record market, but.... dear ROBERT and ADRIAN do you remember what great time and enthusiastic audiences you had here in Italy ? Come here to play and we'll GROOVE for real ! Instead, you lucky Americans, please specify more precisely why ProjeKCt 2 concerts are so better than their CD, and what further goals have these Space Captains now reached. Are they tighter now, or wilder, or bravest or rockier ? Your full of envy MAX from ITALY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 18:13:42 EST From: Mikewyz Subject: ETers at HoB Gig reviews on the House of Blues show have already been posted, and I can't think of anything I'd like to add to them except for the fact that a few of us ETers did indeed hang out there. Standing right up against the stage immediately in front of Bob were Christie, Abhi, his friend (whose name escapes me, my apologies), Matt, and myself. I know I speak for the rest of them when I say it was a pleasure to meet and talk w/ them. Perhaps next time more ETers will join us. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 19:56:04 -0800 From: Family at a-o dot com (Frank Verhaeghe) Subject: The Great Deceiver How can I get a hold of the 'Great Deceiver' box set? It is no longer isted in the Caroline Records catalogue. Can anyone help me? I find it ard to believe it has simply 'vanished' and can no longer be purchased! Can anyone help me? Please? Thanks. Frank V. [Attachment omitted, unknown MIME type or encoding (text/html)] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 05:25:03 +0000 From: good1 at pacbell dot net Subject: April Fools Digest? Hi all. Been a lurker for a few months, and after this post may retreat back into my hole, but I must thank you for the great April Fool Edition. (Or am I reading into it a bit too much?) I won't point out any specifics (you know who you are-or maybe not...) but I had several good laughs at somebody's expense (as I imagine somebody else will at mine). OK, so I'm not making a lot of sense either. My excuse-it's almost 5 in the morning and I need some sleep (I should have left in the typos I'm correcting so as not to sound like a complete idiot.) While I'm at it, I may as well add a better late than never comment about the HOBLA show. Upon reflection after the passage of some time, I just had the thought that the show flew by so f-ing fast that I must have been transported to wherever it is that they transport you when time flies by that fast because, well, you know what I mean if you've been at any of these P2 shows. Anybody out there who missed it-I wish there was some mind-meld reality I could use to help y'all out, and anybody who still has the chance to experience this wonderful privilege (don't know if I spelled that one right, but it's even later now) RUN! GET THERE! And now, something I'm very proud to say. I was lucky enough to play some keyboards with Ian Wallace a few years ago for a couple days with Bob Dylan. (Sorry to name-drop.) Doubt that he'd remember. That's OK. I noticed that this period of time for him was omitted in this list (unless I missed it -can't read every word, you know), so if this has already been mentioned, sorry for the redundency. Anyway, I had a great time. And now, to bed. Thanks for a frequently wonderful and revelatory newsletter and website Toby et. al.. I'll try and keep up with it. I don't know how you do. Goody (Marc J Goodman) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:28:46 +0400 From: "Volguine, Maxim" Subject: RF&LCG transcriptions Does anybody have tracks from "RF&LCG Intergalactic Boogie Express - Live In Europe 1991" transcribed into tabs, midi, etc... ? -- Maxim Volgin multimedia programmer ParaGraph, Moscow, Russia e-mail: maxv at paragraph dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:04:39 -0500 From: "Louis Courteau" Subject: 10+ survey results Louis: Salut tout le monde, Ashley: G'day all, Louis: Well, I was right in assuming that there were quite a few record collectors out there: 102 ETers, among whom many well known posters, were proud enough of their collection to take the pains of going through hundreds to thousands of records to make up their 10+ list. Others drew it up from memory, which is less scientific but good enough for me. Ashley: Instead of the Top 10 artists that made the list, we present here all the artists that were nominated 10+ times (it makes for marginally more interesting reading...). Just over 800 different artists were listed. The full list is saved as an MSWORD doc and it includes a field " who and what" which has the initials of those that responded next to the artists they nominated. A key to participants gives the email addresses for 99.99% of everyone that got involved, the idea being that if only two people voted for ...say...Duran Duran (actually only one did...not the same person who mentioned Barbara Streisand) they would be able to contact each other to discuss rarities...you get my drift. The full list can be obtained by emailing me at: kate dot d at virgin dot net with the subject header: "full list". I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all who responded, Louis and I have had great fun doing this, and we've met some great people who have shared some great insights. Also my thanks go out to Louis who was the originator of this thread and through this project has become a good and dear penpal, which for me is the most rewarding aspect of this whole thing. Louis: We're using up bandwith here... thanks anyway. I would like to point out the extraordinary responsiveness of everyone I bugged with my "Could you tell me more about So & So" queries. I have accumulated a load of information about several musicians I had never heard about. Special thanks to Steve Smith and Lewis Southers who ended up writing whole encyclopedias. Unfortunately, the low KC content makes most of that info unpublishable in ET. I'm keeping it for anyone interested (loco at caractera dot com). Ashley: Regarding the "Guess who the top 10 are" competition, I've been absolutely overwhelmed and flooded with responses from 2 people. They win. The runner-up, who receives a free subscription to ET valued at bugger all is Nick Douglas... congrats, and may you find endless hours of idleness in the deep world of this esteemed organ. But the winner (bass drum triggered thunder roll if you please...) is graeme and cherry. ta da! (if you would like to email your address to me i will post your prize out to you asap). Thank god that's all over. (funnily enough i had to retrieve them from my "compfail" mailbox as they were both off the mark, but i guess they were both as close as anyone got..?). And to think i hassled RF for a prize...*cringe* (i can almost feel his smirk as he reads this...) And for those of you who participated that have a penchant for obscure Russian composers with virtually ASCII names... may the fleas from a thousand camels infest your armpits... i'm joining the CIA as a codebreaker! Louis: I'll take good care to send Ashley a Stravinsky compilation tape so he knows what he's been missing! OK, I hear scissors... so here we go: A tout seigneur, tout honneur: King Crimson is first by far with 80 entries. The Beatles have been a good second all the way and total 43. Pink Floyd and Frank Zappa are tied for third at 40, followed closely by Yes (39) and Robert Fripp (38). These top 6 artists' works are collected by at least a third of respondents. One more reason to keep "Yes sucks" (or "anybody sucks", for that matter, IMO) posts out of this forum. Positions 7 to 13 are quite revealing of trends in ETers' tastes. Brian Eno (33), Genesis (30), Neil Young and Miles Davis (27 each), Peter Gabriel, Jethro Tull and David Bowie (25 each) were quoted by 25-33% of respondents. The Neil Young - Miles Davis tie for 9th place is one major surprise to me. About 20 artists were quoted between 10 and 20 times. Here are their names and scores without further comment: Led Zeppelin (Page/Plant) and John Coltrane, 19; Rush, 17; Emerson, Lake and Palmer and Jimi Hendrix, 16 each; Roxy Music, Rolling Stones and Grateful Dead, 15; Adrian Belew and Talking Heads, 13 each; John McLaughlin, The Who, R.E.M., 12 each; Gentle Giant, 11; Cream, Elvis Costello, Bob Dylan, Steely Dan, and Eric Clapton, 10 each. My final word is a big THANK YOU to all participants, to Master Compiler Ashley Hazelwood, and to Toby for bearing with all this. Ashley: Get a mullet up ya. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:42:04 -0500 From: Paul Kosens Subject: Belew or Sylvian I haven't seen this thread in a while, but I feel recent developments (i.e. the Projekcts) make it relevant again. David Sylvian would be an outstanding addition to KC. I much prefer his deeper, more serious vocal style and lyrics to Belew's lighthearted style. I've always thought that Belew's lyrics and singing took too much of the edge off of King Crimson. Belew's playing, however, more than makes up for this. He is so incredibly talented that his absence would definately be missed. I don't see why there has to be one or the other, why not both. Sinc KC is now 6 people, and since Fripp has broken the group down into various sub-groups (Projekct 1,2, 3?), Sylvian could easily be added without stepping on anyones toes. In Projekct2, Belew plays drums with Fripp and Gunn. In Projekct 1, Fripp Gunn, Levin, and Bruford play w/o Belew. Sylvian could sing with either Projekct. It seems clear that KC is abandoning the idea of all six members playing at once and instead emphasizing these different pairings (small mobile inteligent units). In this structure, there is room for both. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:25:30 +0200 From: Massimo Bracco Subject: FOR TREY : that lost mytical P2 track Dear ETers, but especially TREY on your Road Diary page you mention : "Robert, as well, has taken on a whole new approach to his playing. He has made a type of leap that I have not witnessed, since the leap he made during the Brian Eno "Nerve Net" sessions. This was the first time that I had ever heard Robert play a solo un-like anything he had ever done in the past. David Singleton and I were absolutely speechless. (This track, incidentally, didn't make it on to the record!)" Could you plese tell us more about this phantom track ? Why wasn't included in the CD ? And what kind of wild solo did Robert rage ? An answer coming directly from Trey on ET would be the best, but also contributions by fellow ETers knowing something about this subject, (or having heard this track in P2 live concerts) would be welcome Thank you ThrakByes MAX from ITALY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:36:45 -0800 From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Another clue for the bagel references Well, I'm not sure if people have figured this out yet or what. I kept reading about the bagel references on Trey's gear during the current ProjeKct 2 tour and I found the following on Tony Levin's Papa Bear Site, a page with sample band names for people to have includes one: Bite The Bagel Check it out at http://www.papabear.com/bandname.htm. Andy Gower http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Arena/2763/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 08:01:08 From: doryan at usa dot net Subject: "Discipline" cover art This is in response to the chap who was curious about the enigmatic graphic design gracing the cover of "Discipline" (I would have responded alot sooner but I was sure someone would have beaten me to the punch by now); I think it can be safely assumed that it isn't demonic in nature (Fripp never being in the habit of biting off bat's heads on stage as far as I know) but I definitely DO believe it is based on Celtic knotwork. The ancient Celts incorporated these winding patterns into their decor, art, pottery, etc. and I believe that the various designs used have symbolic meanings, although I don't know off the top of my head what they are in "Discipline"'s case. A friend of mine has a book on the subject so if the topic is still unresolved by that time I will return in a week or two to post my findings. Till then, here's to you all--Tyson. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:38:29 -0800 (PST) From: CBYUN at ucrac1 dot ucr dot edu Subject: GIG REVIEW: House of BLUES Projekct TWO ReVIEW Hi Everyone, Here's my latebreaking summary on the March 24 show. I had issued a general invitation for ETers to meet before the show, at 6:00, but I was about 15 minutes late, so my apologies to anyone I might have missed. I did meet up with two others, though-- Abhi and Kevin. So we had dinner together and they told me about their two (yes, two!) encounters with Robert. I'm hoping Abhi will post an in-depth summary, so I won't go into details. So we're sitting there, eating and conversing, and they point out a guy at the bar and tell me that it's Robert's assistant. Naturally, I flip out a little (hey, this is only the second concert of my life), and I decide to go over and talk to him. Fortunately, Chris wasn't put off by a complete stranger coming up and asking him naff questions. He was nice--he gave me a compact summary of Robert's views on the relationship between musician and listener and how things like the signing of autographs distorts it, the fractalization of KC and the recombination for the album, and what Robert's really like (what, is he cranky in the morning?). Very nice, terrific sense of humor, and very noble. Anyway...what else. Oh yeah, the show! We went over to the doors at 7:30 and while we waited, another ETer showed up--Matt. You know, it was great to meet actual people who share your enthusiasm for a particular thing and actually know what you're talking about when you say that _Discipline_ is the greatest album ever. ET is a great forum for us, but meeting the actual people behind the email addresses was even better. So anyway, the doors open at 8 and we all charge down in a thundering herd. We end up right up in front of the stage, I was near dead center. Amazing. While we wait, yet another ETer shows up--Mike--and we all sit around and exchange war stories and what's your favorite album, what concerts have you been to, and so forth. The show starts a bit late, at 9:30. I can't even begin to describe the music, since it's nothing like I've ever heard, nothing like KC, although there were things that reminded me a bit of Crimson. It was a lot to absorb all at once, kind of like getting a drink out of a firehose or taking a Jim Pitman probability class. My god. But I liked it, it was fascinating to hear, although when I think about it now, I can't remember any of the music, save the rendition of "Vrooom" they performed for the second encore. It seemed like forever waiting for the show to start, and once it did, it was over in a flash. Aside from the fascinating music, I enjoyed the entire spectacle of the event. I was maybe 5 or 6 feet away from Robert, and he was in plain view. He might have even looked at me; that was terrifying, I expected deathbeams from his eyes to vaporize me on the spot. In reality, he was probably thinking, "for god's sake, close your mouth or flies will get in". :) And I really liked the controlled, yet slightly manic performance of "Vrooom" in the encore. In the middle of it, Adrian blew out what I can only describe as a drum explosion. And Robert got up and started waving at us, gesturing for us to cheer him on. That was cool. And the great thing was that after Adrian was done, they cut right back into that controlled, almost prim, but slightly warped version of the tune. That was great. Anyway, a splendid time was had by all. Robert, et al., please come back to LA and grace us with your presence soon. It may be very well to prefer being with your girlfriend over looking at a picture of her, but if you only see her once every two years, well, the lungfish gets restless. Finally, a special thanks to: All the Bobs in the world, particularly Messrs. Robert Fripp and Robert Steven Belew Trey Gunn Robert's assistant Chris The participants of the ETers mini-convention: Abhi, Kevin, Matt, Mike, and Stephen (even though I didn't catch you there) Everyone else on ET, you're like a support group Thank you and goodnight. Christie ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #482 ********************************