Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #480 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 480 Monday, 30 March 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Soul and Yes threads time out NEWS: Tony Levin on Magna Carta NEWS: Date and venue changed NEWS: Tony Levin Interview on "The Daily Vault" Fripp/soul, Levin/bass whore Re: Une Reve Sans Consequence Speciale slapping or the fun-king crimson fingers Fripp and VH III Crimson Questions Fripp got soul! and he's super bad! In Defense of Islands Sorry, but I have to defend Yes here There is no ernst in space Re: intriguing discipline cover Re: Classical vs Romantic Lawson's ugly voice KcNBC Doctor D/Failures Re: Fun with WAV files KC on eMpTV Lions and tigers and fractals, oh my Ian Wallace Fripp & Eno Bits Re: "Discipline" album cover Classic/Romantic - Persig NEW RECRUITS TO KC? IMPOSSIBLE Re: bambi The Great Deceiver in Denver Lyrics change in "The Great Deceiver" Oh my! TELETUBBIES TO INVADE COLONIES! Not Exactly..... classical vs. romantic--oh really? ELP classicists? The New York Fripp GIG REVIEW: HOB Los Angeles 3/24/98 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1998 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: Soul and Yes threads time out Hi everyone. The "Fripp has no soul" and "Yes do/do not suck" threads are now off-limits. For a while at least. Threads on the subject of "Yes has no soul" and "Fripp does/does not suck" will meet a similar fate. :-) Hope this meets with your approval. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:34:53 +0100 From: UMrosek at t-online dot de (Ulrich Mrosek) Subject: NEWS: Tony Levin on Magna Carta Hello ETers, it might be of interest for you that Tony Levin participated in two projects, recently released by the NY-based label MAGNA CARTA. One of them is BLACK LIGHT SYNDROME with Terry Bozzio (drums), Tony Levin (bass & stick) and Steve Stevens (guitars) and the other one is called LIQUID TENSION EXPERIMENT with Tony Levin (bass, stick & upright el. bass) John Petrucci (guitars) Mike Portnoy (drums) Jordan Rudess (keyboards) Both of them are highly recommendable not only for every fan of Tony Levin bur for every KC-follower; especially LTE is outrageous (to my humble opinion)... But watch out if you're going to buy LTE because there was some trouble with the european pressings. I already sent mine back to Magna Carta. Here's what they answered: We have had a major problem with Liquid Tension from our German pressing plant.They remastered the CD when they made the Glass Master for pressing. This has resulted in a complete disruption of the music on the disc. A new version is on its way out.This corrected version will have the matrix number MAXX9023 on the CD itself.To make sure this is the correct master, either play the CD, there should be no gaps or pauses (especially not in "Three Minute Warning").Or check the CD itself for the number (the mismastered Cds will have MAX9023, the correct will have a double X, MAXX9023) The only way to see this number is to flip the CD over, look at the playing side.Toward the center of the CD you will see a series of numbers and letters.We are attempting to solve this horrible situation in regards to our European distributors, but this may take some time. In the meantime, if you send me your CD (just the CD (no jewel case or book) in an envelope is fine) to me, I will send out a corrected disc.Magna Carta feels terrible that the fans had to get caught in the middle of this situation. We will make sure that everyone gets the corrected CD. Address the envelope: Magna Carta "Liquid Tension" CD 208 East 51st St, Ste 1820 New York, NY 10022 If you already bought the "ill-fated" first issue go and do the same but it might be a good idea to contact MC first; you'll find their e-mail adress on the CD-booklet... Uli ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:47:29 -0800 From: PT Subject: NEWS: Date and venue changed Hello everyone, the date and venue have changed for the previously announced Kevin Ayers & Mushroom show. The new date is one day later: Sunday May 24th 1998 and the new venue is the site of the recent Projekct Two shows: The Great American Music Hall in San Francisco www.musichallsf.com Hope to see you there. thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:45:37 -0600 From: "Robert A. Pierce" Subject: NEWS: Tony Levin Interview on "The Daily Vault" My music review site, "The Daily Vault," (URL below) will be running an interview with Tony Levin starting Tuesday 3/31. The interview focuses more on Tony's recent side projects, but I think your readers would enjoy the piece. Tony was a truly nice guy to talk to, something I think will come out in the piece. Best Regards, Bob Pierce "The Daily Vault": http://www.dailyvault.com E-mail: daily-vault at megsinet dot net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:41:43 -0500 From: David Steimling Subject: Fripp/soul, Levin/bass whore Hello, I am new to the ET Digest. I think it's fantastic that enough people wish to share ideas and comments about this (these) fabulous band(s) that a newsletter like this was formed & is maintained. Now, as for the question about whether Fripp has soul seemes to be getting intertwined with whether he plays blues (as in soul music). 1) If your looking for blues, there's plenty out there. 2) Im not sure how this thread was introduced, but Im under the impression it had more to do with " a willful and conscious decision to spend time on something not rendered requisite" and "Dedication is devotion, which entails consigning oneself to something greater than their own being. It also entails passion/enthusiasm/love" and things of this nature. I dont believe anyone can question Fripp's "soul" when it comes to how much of it he puts into his music. I believe the emotion that he brings forth in his compositions is often breath taking. Not to mention what he's done for other musicians & bands like the League of Crafties spawning bands like CGT, etc. And the time, energy and reality he's put into DGM, etc. I think his obvious love for the depth of the music that he brings to us all speaks for itself. His soulfullness is undeniable. And those who think Levin is a bass whore should realize he may just be. If I had that much talent & someone wanted me to play on thier album, if the feel is right, why not? How many people eat only one type of food because its thier favorite? Variety is the spice of life. I certainly dont restrict my listening to only KC related recordings or my computing to ET Digest. Just because what you may like & what he might play may not always agree, he is probably not on this planet to make you or I happy. He's most likely doing his thing for his reasons. Who are we to question that? Does he tell you where to hold a part time job? I think not. C U @ P2 in Baltimore!!!!!!!! Dave Steimling ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 18:05:50 -0500 From: C Gribbin Subject: Re: Une Reve Sans Consequence Speciale > Subject: The Night Watch - Une Reve sans Consequence > Speciale > I understand the Night Watch is a performance from > Amsterdam in early '74. The Mincer, of the bootleg, is a > different performance than the corresponding cut on the > cd, the Fright Watch. I haven't checked any of the other > tracks yet. Indeed....in addition, my version opens with LTA I, which, based on the shows that I saw around that time, was standard opening fare, as I recall. I understand that David Singleton was not in fact sure if the concert actually did open that way. It seems to me that someone must remember(?) If so, there were plenty of versions of that opening track (which was excellent, if poorly recorded) around...I wonder if one might have been acceptable for inclusion on the album? Best, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 20:36:12 -0500 From: Edward Banatt Subject: slapping or the fun-king crimson fingers Hey ET, Sleepless was recorded around the time TLevin was with PGabriel recording SO? This is the spot on your King Crimson timeline where you can find the invention by Messrs Levin Marotta and Gabriel of the "funk fingers." I think funk fingers are used on Sleepless, too. I picture this happening as I listen, anyway. Could it be true? EB ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:54:10 -0500 From: "Robert C. Parducci" Subject: Fripp and VH III I just wanted to pass along this reference to Robert's guitar work in a recent review of Van Halen's latest release by the New York Daily News' (Fripp-friendly) Jim Farber. < snip > For fans of such things, the axman [Eddie Van Halen] contributes some impressively complex instrumental parts. To accommodate them, most songs last longer than usual, ramming through a dizzying number of riffs. In one track, Eddie starts a solo by dragging behind the beat, setting a great syncopation in motion before sliding into a rash of double-timed fingerings and finally escalating to graceful long notes as majestic as the peak work of Robert Fripp. It's amazing that after two decades of plucking, Van Halen can keep coming up with new ways to bend notes, structure solos and hammer a whammy bar. Not that it's deep stuff, mind you. Eddie plays guitar the way a teenager rides a dirt bike, peeling out as many aural wheelies as possible. His latest work achieves a maturity in technical innovation, not emotion. LEGEND: In Our Own Time http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rcp/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 22:17:18 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Bauer Subject: Crimson Questions I've been reading this newsletter for a couple months now, and have contributed an occassional posting. However, and maybe this is because I've only entered the picture recently, but there are some things about Fripp's music that I don't understand, and would appreciate it if someone could help me out...? [ Please, all answers by private email to Jim. -- Toby ] 1) What are soundscapes? I first wondered that when I saw the liner notes on THRAK. Is it some kind of keyboard/synthesizer sound? I know the album credits him with mellotron (which produces string sounds, in case there's somebody else out there almost as confused as I am), but I also hear some non-mellotron sounding, apparently keyboard, sounds. 2) What is "Frippertronics?" Someone once told me it's simply a guitar and a tape loop. If this is true, how does it relate to soundscapes? Are the two at all related? 3) Now that I've finally figured out who's in ProjeKct 2 (Fripp, Gunn, and Belew on V-drums), and knowing that ProjeKct 1 is equally a fractal of King Crimson, who's in ProjeKct 1? Finally... on the "double bass" thread, jazz saxophonist used this setup on his LIVE AT THE EAST record. The two bassists were Stanley Clarke and Cecil McBee. I don't know if he used the same sound elsewhere, though I have a lot of his albums, seeing as how they were all worth the money, as I got them out of cut-out bins. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 01:09:12 -0500 From: "Jonathan Korein" To: Subject: Fripp got soul! and he's super bad! Matthias Miller says that Fripp takes a wicked blues solo in Peter Gabriel's "Waiting for the Big One", but I strongly suspect he is mistaken. I believe Fripp plays rhythm guitar on that album while Dick Hunter (I might have gotten the name=20 wrong) gets to do the leads. Fripp, soul? Hmmm... I guess soul means emotion. I think that Fripp's playing frequently has emotion. I would say that the melody in the beginning of Starless carries sadness. I would say that Fracture carries some kind of terror or hatred or anger or something. Songs like Discipline are what makes people accuse Fripp of being devoid of emotion: they seem emotionally ambigous. But it sort of has an emotion -- a sort of medititative thing. His soundscapes are often really sad sounding. But I must say, when I hear the word soulful, Fripp does not come to mind. I think of David Gilmour solos, or James Brown's funky grooves. Good gawd! "I got something that makes me wanna shout! I got something that tells me what it's all about. I got SOUL! and I'm super bad! -James Brown ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:22:33 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Andrew Marek Subject: In Defense of Islands Somebody out there asked if they were the only one who enjoyed Islands. Actually, my girlfriend and I both love that album (my girlfriend loves Crimso, just in case you were also wondering about the old "is Crimso a guy thing only?" question)... yes, Sinfield's lyrics kinda suck in parts, but the music is always fantastic. I like to catch the vibes off albums that succesfully come together as a cohesive whole, and I think of Islands as being a sadly beautiful lament of world-weariness (probably suggestive of Fripp's state of mind at that time)... the title track is one of those gorgeous pieces of music that brings the goosebumps to my flesh, makes the little hairs on the back of my neck stand up, and causes my eyes to well up with tears. If that makes me a sentimental wuss, so be it. BaM ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:21:14 -0800 (PST) From: winds at sprynet dot com (Wind) Subject: Sorry, but I have to defend Yes here >From: Lewis Southers Subject: Yes? >No! >My own personal anti-Yes bias started in the 80's when i >realised that they were no longer a band, just a commercial >venture. Their music really suffered because of this ... An anti-Yes bias is an anti-Life bias. There, I've said it. Either get in or get out. I certainly do not wish to quibble about such things as personal taste, because no one can be right...or wrong. But let's get with it. We like KC because it is rock music. Yes is rock music and so is Spice Girls (maybe rock music for girls...14 and under). I don't think we should pretend to know what is going on with these people. You don't know Bill Bruford. Yes is a complex topic. In their defense, I could say Chris Squire and Trevor Rabin became best friends and didn't want that stage relationship to end and that it wasn't all about money. But what do I know? The fact is that I'm sure Bill Bruford doesn't get his Yes check every year and then tear it up. He got rich off of Yes. Did Crimson stay more progressive than Yes through the '80s? Sure they did. Who can touch KC? But if you had to compare the genius of an ELP to an extant Yes, well ELP and creativity parted ways in 1978, didn't they? I don't mind throwing money at KC, ProjeKct, or B.L.U.E. or Yes. In fact, I'll get tickets to whatever seats are left (I'm lucky, for me it is all converging in the next month or so). Even Spice Girls if necessary. My point is simply this: You don't know anything about Yes. Why do you so condescend to tell us that they are not a band? Of course they are a band. They are on tour right now in Europe. Right this minute they are on stage playing the most progressive sort of rock ever written. There is nothing wrong with discriminating musically, just keep a kind thought in your heart and a kind word on your lips. Your son may marry a Spice Girl. Wind Mythic Guitar Co. at http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/winds ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 02:42:07 -0500 From: Web Maestro Subject: There is no ernst in space in ET # 479, Robert dot Cambra at harpercollins dot com (Robert Cambra) wrote... << Scrolling across Treys rack display now is the enigmatic: There is no ernst in space. >> enigmatic indeed ... unless you're like me and your last name happens to be Ernst. It's a German name wich means "serieux" (serious) in french, it can also mean "gravite" wich is an adjective in french that could be translated to "gravity" in english... so my guess is, it means "there is no gravity in space" -- . . . Web Evolution . . . Email: webmaestro at bigfoot dot com . . . Web Site: http://www.neurotica.dynip.com . . . IRC Dalnet nickname John-Drake ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:41:30 +0000 From: Malhomme Olivier Subject: Re: intriguing discipline cover it is -at least , and to my knowledge- a sign you find on the book of kells (sp?). We know Mr. Fripp was quite involve at a time in some form of esoterism (still to remain prudent). Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 21:08:44 +1100 From: "Warwick Allison" Subject: Re: Classical vs Romantic Replying to "Classical vs Romantic" article's last few words: >.......As for personal preference . . . ho hum . . . >You say tomato, I say to-MAH-to . . . I would say "You say tomato, I say tormato," but then again I am also a Yes fan! Stu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:48:06 -0000 From: "b" Subject: Lawson's ugly voice >This Greenslade talk is refreshing. I'm one of the few that >doesn't mind his voice. Ever heard David Surkamp/Pavlov's >Dog lead vox, 'nuff said. Just want you to know that you are NOT alone in liking the voice adopted from the Greenslade band. When I first got into them I thought it was a bit "different" than what I was hoping for. After becoming very acquainted with the band over many years, I learned to LOVE his unique voice. I wouldn't have it any other way. Actually, the first experience when I realized his voice has grown to my satisfaction occurred when I was wearing headphones during my listening. His voice had a way "tickling" my sides. Oh, and to make this KC related, Andrew has always been a great drummer in my book. b ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 01:41:06 -0500 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: KcNBC In ET 479 Bayard Mentioned: >Hadn't seen this odd little nugget o' trivia yet, so for >the record: NBC Sports' coverage of the Ironman triathalon >in Hawaii prominently and frequently featured selections >from The Third Star, plus the middle section of "The >Sheltering Sky." Bayard: I seem to remember reading in an earlier ET that the music director at NBC Sports was a KC fan. KC/Fripp/RFSQ were featured during the 1996 Summer Olympics, specifically the Track and Field events. Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:24:18 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Lynch Subject: Doctor D/Failures In ET 479 someone mentioned that Doctor D was premiered at the Zoom Club on October 13, 1972. This is not to the best of my knowledge true, as the extant tapes of that set seem to consist of Larks' Tongues and a great deal of ripping improvisational material (including a preliminary riff from "Fallen Angel"). And now, back to the present day. I personally am pleased that Crimson continues to seek new methods of expressing their music, even if those attempts are not always entirely successful. At this point I find myself disappointed with "Thrak"; it sounds sterile and lacking compared to my ears, compared to the phenomenal music the constituent parts of Crimson have been making over the past few years. Even Vrooom to my ears seems to have much more energy. In fact, I would say that the "Double Trio" concept is one of those ideas that failed in practice, and that when/if Crimson reforms it will be with revised aims. Without actually having heard any of the music from the projekCts yet, I'm encouraged by the apparent goals of more successful improvisation. While I quite enjoy Thrakattak, I find that it is (quite naturally, given the context) lacking a sense of development, and I hope that the constituent parts of Crimson are finding a means of expression for that development. I do find myself baffled by Fripp's, shall we say, IDIOSYNCRATIC usage of spelling and capitalization when titling his projects. I wonder if he's been drawing his linguistic inspiration from random posts to Usenet. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:56:41 +0100 From: Sergi Puertas Subject: Re: Fun with WAV files Hi, At 00:45 28/03/98 GMT, BRZZF at CCMAIL dot CECO dot COM (REX W. FERMIER) wrote: >I am picking other bits off of my collection of >King Crimson and Fripp CDs for other WAV files. Has anyone >else been doing this? I'm curious as to what other people >are doing. In my previous job as a computer technician, I had to configure a brand new powerbook for some boss I hated, so after installing everything, I sampled a few seconds of "21st century schizoid man" and chosed it as Win 95 start sound. I gave him the computer and, soon, he asked me to remove that sound of a guy screaming 21st century schizoid man. I replied that the sound came with the operating system as default. I also told him that it was really hard to remove it and that we'd better not mess with operating system. So, probably the bastard is still listening Crimson calling him "21st century schizoid man" every time his computer starts. Later, Sergi "The sooner you open your eyes to the truth The sooner you wanna jump off the roof." -James G. Thirlwell- * -----------------------------------------------------------------------\ Sergi Puertas | "Nothing matters but flopping on a mattress| V 4 Vendetta | http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/5855 | Indiscipline Global Mobile| With cheap dreams and a beer." -Bukowski- | * -----------------------------------------------------------------------/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 16:32:16 CST From: Jared M Rodecker Subject: KC on eMpTV If anyone was watching eMpTV Tuesday night, March 24, at about midnight cst USA, there was a news bit about the new Bruford/Levin project and they even mentioned a PROJEKT 2 gig. What's next, a live performance from Spring Break in Panama City? I would like to see Mr. Fripp in a pair of swimming trunks... Jared ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:15:29 CST From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" Subject: Lions and tigers and fractals, oh my The thought of having Crim alumni playing in fractals is tantalizing, to say the least. Wetton, M. Giles, Belew? Ian, Levin, Muir, Cross? Fripp, Gunn, Giles? Fripp, Wetton, Belew, Mastelotto? The possibilities are beyond endless. And the potential for some interesting music exists as well. I can't see Fripp participating in any geriatric greatest hits show, a la what ELP and Yes are doing. (And if Fripp doesn't go along with it I don't think any of the others would.) On a totally unrelated note, in the last few weeks I have had a gradual epiphany (is that an oxymoron?) regarding the double trio....for whatever reason, THRAK and THRaKaTTaK make perfect sense to me now. Makes me want to go out and get B'Boom. They've both been in my CD player quite a bit lately. I had a similar experience with LTIA (the first time I was ever exposed to KC....I just went out and bought it on a whim). I didn't understand it for almost six months after I bought it, but now I consider it one of my favorite albums. I'll stop rambling now. =) Still waiting for the all-percussion Projekct--Bruford, Mastelotto, and Belew. Heh heh. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:16:20 -0500 (EST) From: JohnSmallwood at santafehotels dot com (John Smallwood) Subject: Ian Wallace Thanks for your e-mails both private and public regarding Ian Wallace's projects after King Crimson. Ian does not subscribe to ET, so I've forwarded all postings to him and he is pleased that so many are familiar with his career. Ian has been based in the US for quite a few years, and because he was not involved with the "progressive" scene for much of that time it's understandable that ETers have missed many of the interesting artists he's played with. Within the next week I'll organize the postings I've received, add a few artists he's played with to the list, and give everyone an update. Perhaps we can fill in a few more gaps before I ask Ian to help us out. Thanks. John Smallwood ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 08:59:12 EST From: JRHARTLEY1 Subject: Fripp & Eno I went to jolly Croydon yesterday and bought some stuff from Beanos second hand record store. They had quite a lot of Eno records. As the only Eno record I have is his and Fripp's 'No Pussyfooting' I had no idea what to get. In the end I chose 'Another Green World'. This is a fantastic record and I recomend it to anyone who likes listening to lots of different and assorted sounds - in an thought musical way, of course. Robert plays on three tracks but this is not a full on Fripp and Eno collabaration. It includes loads of other bods including Phil Collins. Thankfully, he does not sing. Simon of the South. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:35:17 +0000 From: Ed Mayall Subject: Bits Hello, A boring Saturday morning, so I thought I'd join in with a few ongoing irrelevant threads. Firstly, whoever suggested that Toyah does one of the voices for one of the Teletubbies should be excommunicated as an evil blasphemer. This is almost as bad as the heathen suggestion made in some quarters that Tinky Winky, Dipsy, Laa-Laa and Po are nothing but actors in costumes. They all have their own voices and use them to full effect. Come the Day of the Windmill you will all be struck down! It is true, however, that Ms Wilcox-Fripp does provide some narration for the TT experience: she says "Over the Hills and Far-Away, Teletubbies come to play" at the beginning and "The Sun is setting in the sky, Teletubbies say goodbye" at the end, but I've never noticed any further evidence of her endearing voice so far. I really need to get out more. I know nothing of Greenslade other than those Shiva-esque posters that everyone had on their walls in the '70s, but I do remember seeing a more recent CD (last five years-ish) of music based on Terry Prattchet's Discworld books with a picture of the turtle Great a'Tuin on the cover. I don't think I've seen any mention of that here. I always thought it was Adrian Baloo, as he was one of The Bears. And is again it seems. Now back to your regular programme. Ed ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:45:44 +0100 From: "Brian Thomson, London UK" Subject: Re: "Discipline" album cover krowan at aibs dot org (Kevin Rowan) asked: "Does anyone know what, if anything, the figure on the cover of Discipline is? " Now, I'm not sure what it means in the context of King Crimson, but when I first saw it, I was reminded of the Greek myth of the Gordian knot. In short, Gordius, king of Phrygia (a Phrygian genius) created this immensely tangled and complex knot of rope (, and defied anybody to unravel it. A legend gradually arose that whoever unravelled it would become the ruler of Asia. Eventually someone called Alexander turned up. He couldn't untangle it, so he drew his sword and sliced straight through it. He later became ruler of large chunks of Asia as Alexander the Great. Could the knot be a metaphor for the complex, intertwined nature of the musicianship on Discipline? Is it an example of lateral thinking, or the ability to overcome obstacles by the intelligent application of force? I hope this doesn't become a topic for contention..! Cheers - see you at the Jazz Cafe on 16 April. Brian Thomson, London UK bnt at ibm dot net "" -- John Cage, 4'33" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 10:00:38 -0800 From: W M Heinrichs Subject: Classic/Romantic - Persig Hello, I believe that Eric Tamms(?) comments about classic/romantic split in Prog-Rock has less to do with historical music styles and is more in line with Robert Persig's interpretation. This was mentioned in an earlier ET and I would like to expand on this thought a bit. Persig would say that one with a classic perception is intrigued with the underlying complexity and connectivity of how something is designed. Where-as a romantic is intrigued with the appearance and beauty of how something looks. I realize this is a gross injustice, but bear with me, please. Obviously, an object can look very nice, but be designed poorly. Once the object breaks, it is thrown away and replaced by something new. In music, I would liken this to some Pop songs. A song may sound nice and catchy, but just be a variation of many other pop songs that had come before. Once it no longer sounds nice and catchy, it is discarded for a new song. This I would call a purely romantic view. The opposite can also happen. An object can be butt ugly, and have a very solid, intricate, and complex design. This is an object that will last forever, but is difficult to appreciate due to its outward appearance. In music, I would liken this to some Prog-Rock. A song may be harsh to listen to but has a depth and complexity that is intriguing. You will have to listen to the song a few times before you can really appreciate it. Persig would say that quality exists between classicality and romanticism. Basically, something that is both classically and romantically oriented is of the highest quality. In music, this is what I (and most other ETers) look for. I believe I have found such quality in King Crimson's works. Sure I like some songs more than others, as do you all. In fact, some of my favorite songs are probably different than yours too. That just means my classic/romantic ideals are not the same as yours. Not that my choice of songs (bands) are any better or worse than your choices. Going out on a limb... I would argue that classic/romantic differences in KC band members has been a cause in KC's volatility over the years. Specifically, the ITCOTCK line up. Personally my favorite KC work, and one of the highest quality. ITCOTCK was created by a group of talented musicians to obtain a depth and pleasantry (Classic/Romantic) that will stand the test of time and never lack luster. I believe that this group of talented musicians, all having different classic/romantic ideals, were all trying to pull KC in a direction of the highest quality. But, since they all had a different view of this quality, it caused dissension. (BTW, I also believe this is an underlying reason for Frank Zappa leaving the MOI.) It is time to get down from my soap box and find my flame retardant clothing. _Bill PS. P2 in HOB Rocked! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:19:18 -0500 From: "R.R. Rossi" Subject: NEW RECRUITS TO KC? IMPOSSIBLE As I near a major milestone, the big FOUR-OH, in just 8 weeks, I look back fondly on my musical interests and find that KC and KC-related music has always been at the top of my list. In my high school days I was part of a select group (totaling 5!) who were into the band. We came from different backgrounds, but immediately meshed when we slapped the vinyl on the turntable and blasted Starless, Red, USA or even the older stuff. Myself and two others had developed some musical talent, me on drums, the other two on bass and guitar. We never played as a trio, but each of them took turns jamming with me as a duo in the garage. I tried to style myself after Mr. Bruford, and could play along pretty well to Red, Fracture, Fallen Angel, even LTIA II from USA (which still gives me goose bumps to this day!) When I did get into a "potentially big-deal" band (circa 1978) and mentioned doing some of the above songs, I was greeted with raised eyebrows and "yeah, right". Shortly after that, I made a life-changing decision to drop the quest for musical fame and glory and concentrate on a proper career (jolly good choice, old man!). Moving ahead to the present, while chatting with a new co-worker who is 8 years younger, he mentioned that he and a friend were looking for a drummer to play various types of music, and when I reminisced on my drumming days he invited me to sit in, using an old kit the friend had. Well, it was a lot of fun, we've practiced a few times now, and we'll probably try to hit the local bars this summer in order to act out this rock-and-roll fantasy. When they asked me what bands I was into, I immediately went into the mantra about KC, UK, BLUE, etc. Once again I got the raised eyebrows and "yeah, right", but they also said "They're still around?" and "I think I heard a song by them way, way back - In the Court of Some King, or something like that." I informed them that KC was alive and well and living in the ProjeKCts. I've offered many a time to play something from Thrak or BLUE, but they just hold up wooden crosses and necklaces of garlic. At least they haven't thrown me out of the band.........................yet. RRR ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 15:16:21 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: bambi >From: wviland at thin-film dot com > >for other reasons. Robert Fripp possesses an unmatched >talent for connecting with his listeners, captivating them, >leaving them searching desperately for every word. Damn! Did I leave that blasted Fawn Filter turned off again? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 98 10:44:13 MST From: Arthur Krause 548-3106 DTN = 522-3106 Subject: The Great Deceiver in Denver Hi, Just to let you know, if you live in Denver and need a copy of The Great Deceiver, I was in a place called "Cheapo Discs" in Denver yesterday and I saw a used copy for $32.00. I do not live in Denver (1 hour away) so I can't help anyone outside of Denver in a timely manner. Arthur ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:14:07 +0100 From: "Anne Bailey - (student errors)" Subject: Lyrics change in "The Great Deceiver" What does John Wetton say in the live versions of "Easy Money" and "Starless " ? OK,I'm French,but I don't get it.Isn't it something about a rape,and a "judge" who is a "bastard" in "Easy Money" ? And "win your bitch and your soul you lose" in "Starless" ? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 19:00:39 -0500 From: "JP Murphy" Subject: Oh my! I just finished reading Ade's latest installment to 'The Corner';by the end of it I needed to have my son's help to lift my jaw off the floor...I've said it before, we live in a wonderful time for music, because I don't think it can get much better than what we have on our plates for the next ??? Oh well, I just ordered Belewprints and B.L.U.E. and can't wait for Space Groove and now Time Groove by the ProjeKct...again, what a time we live in... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:45:50 -0500 From: "R.R. Rossi" Subject: TELETUBBIES TO INVADE COLONIES! My wife was reading the April edition of Parenting Magazine when she ran across the following article: ***** Teletubbies, a toddler hit in Britain, debuts in the States on PBS this month, drawing the wrath of critics. The show, which features main characters who only babble in baby talk, could delay a toddler's language development, some argue. Other experts disagree, saying that young children will be able to relate to the Teletubbies, four brightly colored creatures with TV screens in their tummies who periodically play videos of real kids riding their bikes or playing with friends. The show does everything at an extra-slow pace, a toddler-friendly style. "It's a safe world that combines fantasy and action and enhances imaginative play," says Michael Cohen, a developmental psychologist in New York City who specializes in children's media. Will the Teletubbies replace Barney in the hearts of American kids? Maybe not-but there are already plans afoot to unleash Teletubby toys. ***** As soon as she said the T-word I exclaimed "One of the characters' voices belongs to Robert Fripp's wife! MY wife, who is somewhat of a Crim-fan, was sufficiently impressed. Our children, ages 5 and 3, walked away with their hands over their ears................... Attention those attending BLUE and ProjeKCt Two in NYC: maybe we can wear Teletubby t-shirts to the shows to identify ourselves as ET-ers!?! RRR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:25:47 EST From: MarkJX Subject: Not Exactly..... >From: Robert dot Cambra at harpercollins dot com (Robert Cambra) >Subject: GIG REVIEW: P2 in SF, 21 & 22 March 1998 >P.S. No bitting bagel boys in sight. Scrolling across Treys >rack display now is the enigmatic: There is no ernst in >space. Close, but no cigar! Scrolling across Trey's miniaturized tribute to Times Square: "In Space, there is no Yeast, therefore no Bagels" Also overheard at the SF show: AB: Robert! Check this out! I can make my VDRUM sound like a car horn! RF: So What! Hey Trey! I can make my guitar sound like a vibraphone! TG: Big Deal! Listen Adrian! I can make my Warr Guitar sound like Jack Kerouac! P2. Pan it. Praise it. Whatever you like. It warmed my heart and restored my faith to see three professional musicians simply ENJOY playing so much. Y'all Thrak On, y'hear! Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:44:30 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: classical vs. romantic--oh really? Carl F Rudorf writes: >Michael Flaherty's reference to Mr Tamm's book is >interesting. However I believe Mr Tamm's categorization of >"prog rock" as being either classical or romantic is >arbitrary and absurd. The categorization, if one must exist >at all, is "prog rock". It was, I believe, foisted on this >type of music decades ago by an unwitting musical press. >And, for better or worse it groups combos as diverse as >Crimso and Yes with the likes of Roxy Music, Genesis, Gentle >Giant, Greenslade(!), Caravan, Soft Machine, Henry Cow, >Strawbs, and so on. [You, gentle reader may add your own >personal faves as they come to mind.] What in my view is >"progressive" in "progressive rock" is an effective use of >the LP (long playing) format. That seems too broad a factor. If we use "effective use of the LP format" as a criteria, albums such as the Beach Boys' "Pet Sounds" (a great album, but prog??), Lindsay Buckingham's "Go Insane" (which featured a really annoying riff repeating in perfect tempo in the wind-off grooves of side 1, only to have the riff resume at the beginning of side 2), and Monty Python's "Matching Tie and Handkerchief" (with its indeterminate second side; what you got depended on which groove the needle landed in) would be prog albums. In my view, the "progressive" element amounts to expanding the formal and harmonic structure of rock music beyond its blues-rooted origins; this resulted in not only "classical" and "folk" style borrowing (a process begun by the Beatles or even the Yardbirds, IMO), but suite-like "pieces" (are they even songs anymore?) demanding a longer attention span and the kind of quality listening to which Fripp sometimes alludes. For those academically inclined, John Covach has edited an interesting collection of essays on the music theory of rock (_Understanding Rock_, published by Oxford Univ. Press), which includes his own excellent essay on Yes's "Close to the Edge" in the wider context of prog rock. Kevin Holm-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:50:52 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: ELP classicists? Neal Patrick Brown writes: >In comparing these bands to art music periods, I'd have to >say that ELP represents the classicists, Yes the >romanticists, and Crimson the modernists. ELP = Mozart, Yes >= Chopin or Debussy, and Crimson = Bartok or Stravinsky. Are you sure that Emerson's synth work on, say, "Toccata" (which admittedly is a Ginastera cover) is Mozart-like??? Yeesh! What I think the classicist link with Crimson is is that the pattern-oriented playing of Fripp in the 1980s does tend to emphasize structure over self-expression (notice no mention of "soul" or lack thereof here!), and hence tends to be more "classic" in *character* (not harmony) than ELP or Yes. Kevin Holm-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:15:10 PST From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: The New York Fripp Dear ET, Had an idea for a compilation album to document Robert Fripp's years in New York City. For instance, it would be nice to compile rarities like the version of Bowie's "Heroes," performed live with Blondie. Such a compilation could also include work with the Roches and Daryl Hall. I wonder if such an album could include the "outtakes" for EXPOSURE detailed on the Exposure Pages--the songs that dinosaur record companies refused to release for commercial and contractural reasons. I'd love to hear the Fripp rendition of Donna Summer's "I Feel Love" (one of the greatest psychedelic songs of all time, IMHO)with Deborah Harry on vocals. Has this recording ever been released? It seems to me that the 1978-80 New York period was a particularly fruitful one in Mr. Fripp's career, in which he worked extensively with a number of American musicians, including, of course, Tony Levin. I think this period may have served as R & D to prepare for the rebirth of the Greater Crim in 1981 even as the current ProjeKcts are laying the groundwork for Crim 1999 (excused my metaphor-mixing). 'Nuff said. Best, Doug ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:19:42 -0800 From: access1 at earthlink dot net Subject: GIG REVIEW: HOB Los Angeles 3/24/98 This gig has been pretty well covered, so I'll just throw in a few personal observations/comments: I arrived to the House of Blues at a little after 7:00 to get my tix from will call; it was pretty early so my three friends and I decided to have dinner upstairs. I got a lousy "Blues Burger" which cost $8.95. The House of Blues has no soul, and Fripp has played there for Soundscapes, Crimson and now ProjeKct Two shows, so maybe Fripp really doesn't have any soul! I'm just kidding, but next time I suggest the El Rey theatre, a much better venue that would be perfect for the next ProjeKct to come through town. By the way, Toby, I think it may be time to kill the soul thread! Anyone who thinks Fripp doesn't have soul needs to buy David Sylvian's Gone to Earth and Bowie's Heroes immediately, and that ends that. Back to the show: Trey was incredible, and Robert soared on some searing runs. Adrian had more fun than probably anyone else in the place, as usual. I think Roland, etc. have given the boys so many cool new toys to play with that they are getting a little too carried away with their sounds and not involved enough in creating lasting music outside of the improvisational context, in the sense of R&D for the greater Crim. I thought some of the improvs sounded like thrAkAttAk with a repetitive techno-ish beat instead of Bruford improv. Some of the songs actually sounded like David Sylvian quite a bit in a way (again, Gone to Earth or Damage -just the sound, not what was played so much). The triggering was cool in the live context, such as Trey's vocal samples through his Warr guitar. I turned to my friend who used to play bass in my band and said, "How come your shit never talked?" which cracked him up. We also thought Adrian triggering the bass line through his kick drum was cool. Who needs Tony the bass whore, anyway? :^) Fripp and Gunn were also both making incredibly low bass sounds that shook the whole hall as well as giving my internal organs a nice massage. Overall we were quite pleased with the show, although I thought standing around for twenty minutes between sets was kind of a drag. Here's where the problem lies. I bought the ProjeKct Two CD on the way out of the show, and put both discs into my 6-disc changer in my car (along with Night Watch, of course). I drove around listening to the ProjeKct discs since the show, and I am really disappointed with them. The reason? That stupid kick drum trigger of that bass line! Wow, it's through most of the songs on the entire 2 hour CD! It's the same six or so note sequence being repeated, with the only variation being dependent on when Adrian hits his bass drum. To me it quickly became an enourmous distraction to the otherwise wonderful improv of Robert and Trey. I think this triggering effect would have worked for a song or maybe two, but it is WAY distracting to hear through the entire CD, not to mention the evil fact that I could not get the sound out of my head for the last three days, even after only one listening! I like what Adrian is playing otherwise on the disc, and it would be fine if the trigger was only on one or two tracks at the most, but I'm not sure I can really listen to this much more! Anyone else agree? So I guess the standard ProjeKct caveat applies if you go into it expecting Crim. I won't mind if some techno-y elements show up in the next go round, as long as they don't get too caught up in skronking noises, and come up with more cool tunes like Darshan (again with the Sylvian, sorry!). Improv can only get Crimso so far, although of course I look forward to more. By the way, someone said they were all wearing black clothes. Actually I was very close to the stage, and Adrian was wearing a black jacket which he took off after the first song, over a brown t-shirt, black jeans and bright red tennis shoes. Trey was wearing a dark blue velvety looking shirt over black jeans. Mr. Blackwell would have been pleased, although Derek Smalls probably would have recommended a foil-wrapped cucumber for Mr. Gunn, who surely was the focal point for the three or four women in the audience. Again, my silliness is getting the better of me, so I will depart with the report of an awesome show by Tool on Thursday at the Hollywood Palladium, only two days after the ProjeKct show, so a great week for live music. Matthew Mahler ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #480 ********************************