Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #475 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 475 Monday, 16 March 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Saro Cosentino: "Ones and Zeros" NEWS: Stereo Review Article Bruford's Knowledge! The Flaming Thread Ravel's Bolero - Mars? Tony slaps! Was the Lizard King a spyglass guest at the feast of friends? Definition? ProjeKct 2 tickets re: Slapping misinformation Re: Elephant Talk Digest #473 Double basses Exiles Ian Wallace Tony Slapping, Fripp "Soulless"(?) gates of paradise Giles, Muir, Cunningham/Camera Obscura why no tours in the midwst RE: Slapping, popping, etc. Re: Ian McDonald P2 at Irving Plaza A young person's guide re: whimper Soundscape Reviews - We'll Let You Know Fripp soulless?? B.L.U.E. R.E.V.I.E.W. revised FS: ProjeKct Two ticket for 4/21 in SF, USA RE: Elephant Talk Digest #474 Re: ProjeKct 2 in Frisco Adrian's BelewPrints On Sale Upper Extremities & ProjecKt 2 Larks' Tongues in Aspic ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWeb: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest system v3.5b (relph at sgi dot com). ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 14:34:48 +0100 From: Marco Passarello Subject: NEWS: Saro Cosentino: "Ones and Zeros" I want to signal to the ET readers a new CD recently released in Italy. It's by Saro Cosentino, a musician and producer very active on the international scene. For his first solo record, recorded in Peter Gabriel's Real World studios, he assembled an amazing cast of musicians from the whole world: Peter Hammill, Tim Bowness (No-Man), John Giblin, David Rhodes, Shankar, Jakko Jakszyk, and a lot of others, including Trey Gunn from KC! The disc is titled "Ones and Zeros" (shouldn't be "Ones and ZeroEs"? Oh, well...), and is a collection of melodic songs, with very good vocals and nice arrangements. It was released by the italian label Consorzio Produttori Indipendenti (http://www.cpi.it), distributed by Mercury/PolyGram. Most interesting for ET readers should be the last track, "9:47 -p.m. eastern time", a long instrumental piece co-written by Trey Gunn, with a lot of loops and soundscapes. Bye! Marco Passarello ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 02:09:35 EST From: SMcmil6360 Subject: NEWS: Stereo Review Article The April issue of Stereo Review has a small feature article on the recent crop of releases coming from Crimson. Most of the information ET readers will already know about, but how about this - It says to expect something special around January 1999 for the thirtieth anniversary of King Crimson, but gives no details. What is the author, Ken Richardson talking about? Sounds very interesting... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 14:12:27 +0000 From: kate dot d at virgin dot net Subject: g'day all, I may not be the only one to mention this but Toyah Wilcox appeared as a guest on "never mind the Buzzcocks" friday night last, it was interesting in that in the last segment "what's the next line?" or some such ingeneous title, the line Toyah was given was "nothing he's got he really needs" to which she looked totally perplexed. The host urged by saying "you're married to a member of the band" This mystified her. she shook her head The host then stated "21st century schizoid man is the name of the song", not mentioning the name of the band who did it, the only band ommission of the evening i think. Mrs Wilcox is apparently also a teletubby voice. She wasn't quite as funny as Lemmy last week. wu wrote in #474: >> And so I pose the question to my fellow fans out there: Does >> Fripp have soul? And how would you define it? > >I would say no. My favorite guitarist is Pink Floyd's David Gilmour; his >bluesy, emotional style is at complete odds with Fripp's mathematical >precision. But even though Fripp may not play a warm, fuzzy style, he's >still a great musician. I don't think "soul" is a requirement for a good >guitarist. There is room in the music world for more than one type of >quality guitar music. > >At a risk of going off on a tangent, I'll add this: As for a definition of >"soul", one of the things about it is that it probably can't really be >defined. But I don't agree that instrumental sloppiness, or fudging, or >whatever can be considered an essential element. I think the big thing is >feeling - emotion. On the issue of "soul", I hold the opinion that, if it exists at all, it's only a word we've given to an individually perceived inner-self sense of being that one can sense when one becomes completely intoverted. It comes when nothing exists but the event of the moment, the audience is not there, nor concern, nor ego. When the moment is achieved and the audient attentive and receptive, some of them will percieve this "soul" too. Often, unfortunately, the word "soul" is misapplied to the act of performance. I also believe that the very act of creative experimental improv is "fudging" probably the only decent use for the act. come on mate, ya gotta believe somethin' in ya life ashley ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 07:19:23 -0800 (PST) From: syd at intergate dot bc dot ca (Chris Trinidad) Subject: Bruford's Knowledge! Just wondering if anybody out there (is there anybody... out there?...) knows where Bruford got his knowledge of theory. The compositions on his Bruford/Towner/Gomez disc are great and seem sophisticated. On the video, "Bruford and the Beat", he explains that he has this rudimentary knowledge, but it seems to exceed what most "normal" drummers would know. (Flames by private email, plz..) In the liner notes he explains that he has a somewhat "incomplete" understanding of harmony that is "somewhat skewed".. but this still intrigues me. Could he perhaps have picked it up along the way? Learning from all the groups he's been in? I mean, he can read manuscript notation and claims to "see and monitor the notes going by, in (his) brain's eye.." In any case, Bruford, to me, is a musician playing drums, and not just a drummer? Or maybe he's an alien out to get us all.. oh well, things to ponder... In Bass we trust, Chris Trinidad ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:28:34 -0600 From: Wade_L_Viland/Systems/TFT at thin-film dot com Subject: The Flaming Thread > Let's abolish first names for a gender neutral ET! >gender issues are very important, and at first thought I'd say that's a >good idea in the name of civility, but it may actually protect idiocy. What started as a friendly discussion "Why women don't like KC" wasn't intended to insult the female gender. It was mearly to help some understand why there significant (female) other would refuse an invitation to enjoy this art either live or recorded. I have attended concerts by Yanni, Chicago, The B-52's and others by my wife's request. Yet she refused to attend Crafty with me because Robert makes her uptight. I've listened to a lot of music and can appreciate something in most types. My particular taste classes Robert Fripp and KC as a reference in music art. "Lets see....Honey!, What should we listen to now?" "I want something that's Elegant, yet Exciting." "Something Colorful and Technical." "Something to give me an Edge,... and then take it off." "Something REALy good." "NO! NOT CELINE DION AGAIN!!!!!!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 98 20:14:33 -0500 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Ravel's Bolero - Mars? Previously Peter Ward Mentioned The Following Concerning Ravel's Bolero: >I don't see such parallels between Bolero and LTiA2. LTiA2 "goes more >places" to my ears, Bolero just stays in one place and changes color. >Then at the end it gets up and walks out the door. Maybe a better >comparison can be made w/ Bolero and Talking Drum, but that's closest >that KC comes to it to me. I had a friend over for dinner one night, and whilst we were listening to disc two of EPITAPH (Which she thought was really cool) she commented on how MARS reminded her of Ravel's Bolero. Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:57:51 EST From: Mikewyz Subject: Tony slaps! Tony Levin can be heard slapping his bass on "Thela Hun Ginjeet" and especially "Sleepless" (w/ a delay effect in the latter). Remember, he's a session player in the NY area, it's sort of a requirement. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:47:39 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Bauer Subject: Was the Lizard King a spyglass guest at the feast of friends? I was digging around thru my stacks of vinyl the other day, and came up with a Crimson Connection which, to my knowledge, has never before been mentioned on this page: specifically, the Andrew MacColloch, the drummer on Lizard, also played on SPYGLASS GUEST with a band called Greenslade. Whether or not they put out any more releases is something I don't know; the album I have I found in a cut-out bin. Greenslade was a VERY talented keyboardist in a keyboard band: two keyboards, bass and drums, no guitar. He was trying to market his stuff to Yes fans and the cover art is by the guy who did CLOSE TO THE EDGE, Roger Dean. The main problem with the album I have is that he let the other keyboardist write half the songs and didn't even play on them himself. These songs are terribly mediocre and bring the whole album down. Does anyone know if Andy MacColloch did anything after this band? Nicotine-free Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 14:09:47 -0800 From: "Eric A. Hall" Subject: Definition? Hi, Do any of you know exactly what the phrase "Elephant Talk" means? I know about the song on Discipline, but I'm looking for where KC got the phrase from originally, and what it means. I publish a newsletter that goes to folks in the computer networking industry, and want to use "Elephant Talk" as the title and theme of my next editorial, which happens to be on newsletters, dicsussion lists, on-line forums and other forms of communication. However, I'm afraid it will be too obscure for many of my readers, and would like to have a secondary reference. Thanks for any help! -- Eric A. Hall +1-650-685-0557 ehall at ehsco dot com http://www.ehsco.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 14:20:59 PST From: "Christopher Brugger" Subject: ProjeKct 2 tickets I have ProjeKct 2 tickets for the May 3 show at the Ballroom at the Bellevue. I know that it is in Phila., but where in Phila. If any one can help with a phone number or directions that would be great, thanks in advance. Chris thungary at hotmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:41:32 EST From: Biffyshrew Subject: re: Slapping misinformation Gabe Camacho >Where/when have you seen Tony slap his bass with KC? >I've never seen him do that in KC. Tony used thumb-slapping on "Sleepless" in '84. First time I ever actually saw the technique used, in fact. Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...info on THE BRANDNEWBUG CONCERTOS at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 01:32:51 +0000 From: "Andrew Hathikhanavala" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #473 this is a reply to the devil's interval matter...ill make it quick... if fripp has shown tendencies toward vague occultic influences, he has also shown apprecitation for christianity, to a certain extent. has anyone heard of the band called Iona? they are a Celtic group from the british isles. they are on the forefront label, and have been described as dream theater without the metal. they are strong christian musicians and are utterly amazing both on recordings and live. on their last album, journey into the morn, robert fripp is cited as doing guitar synth and frippertronics (still not sure what these are...) on two songs. anyone who was not aware of this group NEEDS to go out of their way to get it. their recordings can be obtained through the forefront records website or at any well-stocked christian bookstore. the king crimson fan is guaranteed by myself that they will love this group if they like groups like clannad and deep forest and enya, although iona blows away all said artists. thanks, andrew- hathia at ccaa dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 13:36:42 EST From: Win Boogie Subject: Double basses >From a previous post>>>How about Henry Threadgill's X75 experimental jazz ensemble from the 70's, which featured four bass players? The Tone Dogs featured two basses regularly in the 80's (usually overdubbed, though), and Caveman Hughscore often had two or three basses going at once. John Coltrane used two bass players often, first appearring on record on Ole. Art Davis and Reggie Workman were the players. Coltrane expressed his interest in this experiment as a way to get the type of tonal drone created in ragas and other Indian music. Robert WinBoogie at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 14:19:21 -0500 From: oracular at webtv dot net (David Denis) Subject: Exiles Just listened to David Cross "Exiles" which came in the mail yesterday. Excellent!!!! Highly recommend!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:15:34 -0500 (EST) From: JohnSmallwood at santafehotels dot com (John Smallwood) Subject: Ian Wallace Doug Robillard recently wrote: > While skimming through a biography of Bob Dylan, I came across references > to the activities of ISLANDS-era personnel. In the same time period, Ian > Wallace, the ISLANDS drummer, toured with Dylan. In fact, he plays on the > "Dylan Live at Budokkhan" album. I'd imagine that working with Robert > Fripp is good training; some KC alumni obviously land prestigious gigs. After reading this posting it an idea occurred to me. I called Ian Wallace (a close friend of mine) and I suggested to him that just for fun I might ask ETers to construct a list of all the bands that Ian has played with to the best of everyone's collective knowledge. Ian will help us to complete the list, and hopefully Toby will grant us the kiss of life. This list will astound many of you, and will really cement Doug's opinion that some KC alumni land prestigious gigs. I'll start things off. Ian's first band was The Warriors, with Jon Anderson, and he sat in with Yes for one of their first gigs. Chris Squire asked him if he wanted to join and he politely declined (in a recent Pete Frame diagram, Ian is listed as Yes's first drummer). Other early bands: Bonzo Dog Doo-dah Band Viv Stanshall The World (with Neil Innes - on the LP "Lucky Planet", which I know many of you would really like) King Crimson then.....?? And a flash into the future, to give you an idea of Ian's versatility and where this is headed. In 1995, at Don Henley's wedding, Ian was the drummer in the house band for the occasion, playing for Don Henley, Sting, Billy Joel, John Fogerty, Jackson Browne, JD Souther, and Sheryl Crowe. Any one interested in making a addition to the list? John Smallwood ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:26:14 EST From: Ctao Subject: Tony Slapping, Fripp "Soulless"(?) Tony's first slapping, as far as I'm aware, can be heard on ToaPP, most notably on "Sleepless" (processed through delay, etc), and on "Man With an Open Heart", where he uses the technique as more of an accent. On his trusty Stingray, no less (on tour, this was a way cool yellow bass with the album graphic on it). As far as Fripp being soulless is concerned, I'm dumbfounded by the very notion. He does seem to have too distinct "sides" to his playing, one of which is more modally based, diatonically phrased (solos on "The Nightwatch", "Exiles", "Book of Saturdays", "Matte Kudasai"), the other being more chromatically based, abstracted, and a bit "headier" (think of the intro to "LTiA III", "Requiem", "TheSheltering Sky", and most of his recent soloing w the double trio). "Soulfulness" is a pretty vague notion. Can one be "emotional" without being "soulful"? I think "soulful" is often used to imply a whole set of harmonic, melodic and cultural baggage. Pentatonic, blues-based players (90% of all rockers) are usually touted as being soulful. Fripp's playing seem to me to stem much more from the Western Classical /Modern music traditions, with some distinct ethnic influences (diatonicism, chromaticism, whole tone scales, altered scales, and an Eastern sort of chromatic modality). Does this basis make it "soulless"? Hell no. If one can't hear the "soul" in Early Music, Bartok, Stravinsky, Turkish music, Balinese gamelan, or even Webern, one is unlikely to hear much soul in Fripp's playing. Where does this "soul" reside? In the musical emanations of the artist? Or in the ear of the listener? A Kantian question of perception... Tx, C Dowling P.S. - How about that solo on "Exiles"? Even as a youngster, I it pretty damn soulful. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:23:22 +1100 From: j dot keens at rmit dot EDU dot AU (Jeremy Keens) Subject: gates of paradise shortened repost re gates for person asking [perhaps an FAQ topic]: when i heard the rumour of the paring back of gates, i emailed DGM, who informed me that the change was made due to logistics - too much to do (probably with the latest craze - projeckts). this is a pity as far as i am concerned - the gate we have is a precursor to 1999, and is interesting as a document of robert in the studio making early soundscapes. but it would be great to hear more (than just the sometimes god hides track) of the soundscape which moved robert so much that he felt the gate had opened. as far as soundbites go, my understanding is that the _november suite_ 'replaces' it as the final soundscape in the series. ah well - DGM must move on, as must we - its not as if we are hard up for soundscape albums. jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:45:46 -0500 From: Guido Hoerster Subject: Giles, Muir, Cunningham/Camera Obscura Hi, You all, as I'm new here and just looking through the old issues (please forgive my bad English) I'd like to contribute two things which are at least important to me (the moderator may feel free to drop this out if not required): 1. I found a CD entitled "Ghost Dance" by Michael Giles, Jamie Muir and David Cunningham. It has a recording date of May 1983, mixed and reworked September 1983 and finally released on Piano as number 502 in 1995 ! For those who do not know: Cunningham was a member of "The Flying Lizards" who made a very "Residents-like" cover version of Eddie Cochran's "Summertime Blues". A list of Fripp collaborations I found in one of the old elephant-talk issues states that Fripp collaborated on at least one album with this group. The music on "Ghost Dance" has a lot of guitar loops performed by Cunningham and uses the kazoo which made the "Flying Lizards" sound so unique. 2. In the early 80s I heard a German band/project called "Camera Obscura" on the radio. They released a LP entitled "Die Reise" or "Alle Zeit der Welt" (I don't know which one was the title, but there appeare= d two songs with these titles on that LP) which contained a dedication to Peter Gabriel and has a very frippy guitar sound (a crossing of the endless sustain sound we all love in "Starless" and the "modern" sounds like on the "I advance masked" LP). As there remained only a very bad tape copy from the radio,I'd be delighted if anyone knows if this LP is available somewhere or re-released on CD. Greetings, Guido --=20 _______ / \ / \ Guido Hoerster | _ _ | Muehlenpfordtstrasse 5 /\|-(O)-(O)-|/\ D-38106 Braunschweig \/| ~ ~ |\/ Tel.: 0531-346491 (privat) | > | 0531-243090 (gesch.) | \___/ | \ / \_______/ ~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:40:14 -0600 From: ENTRERI121 at webtv dot net Subject: why no tours in the midwst i was at sandstone screaming my nuts off too thela hun gin jeet....selfish blokes...come back to kansas city again..ican,t afford plane tickets ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:30 -0800 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: RE: Slapping, popping, etc. >Actually It was Larry Graham while playing with Sly and the Family Stone >that came up with slap bass. I believe that. The idea is so firmly entrenched that it must be true. An article in Musician sometime around 1981-82 refers to Graham as "the poppa of popping". >Where/when have you seen Tony slap his bass with KC? Sometime in 1981, KC appeared on the ABC show "Fridays". On "Thela Hun Ginjeet" Tony appears to be thumb-slapping a Music Man stingray. Mike Tanigawa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:52:57 -0600 From: Phoenix Subject: Re: Ian McDonald First off, thanks for all of your help about the biography of Ian Mcdonald! Several KC fans contacted me to help me. Now I have a very complete document. His biography is already posted, if you wanna see it go to: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/8471/imcdonald.htm Well, thanks again! Cya.. -- Phoenix * ----------------------------------------- FOREIGNER Rock Band Page http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/8471 mailto:celestialways at geocities dot com * ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 23:51:06 -0800 From: Kathryn Ottersten Subject: P2 at Irving Plaza Hi Crimpersons, For anybody who wants tickets to the P2 show at Irving Plaza in NYC on May 7th, I called Ticketmaster a few times on Saturday, (I just wanted to be sure!) and each time they told me that the May 7th date would not go on sale until the May 6th date had sold out. So for anybody interested in the 7th we just have to keep calling back. Also, the May 6th date is for sale online at Ticketmaster's website (www.ticketmaster.com). See ya'll in New York. Kathy Ottersten "They come better looking, But they don't come mannered." ------------------------------ Date: ma, 16 mrt 98 13:53:46 PST From: jos leenknegt Subject: A young person's guide Hi, Could someone tell me where (on line shops) I can find A young person's Guide to KC (CD) ? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:07:13 -0500 From: jmooney at bigyellow dot com Subject: Subject: re: whimper >Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 04:15:19 -0700 >From: Eb > > And since when is Yes/ELP's music so different from King Crimson's? I > mean,if you get down to nitty-gritty details, sure, it's different. Precisely. For the sake of discussion, let's line up KC, Yes, and the Spice Girls. Two of the three groups attempt (or have recently attempted) to create interesting music, ideas which thrive outside the boundaries which cripple most musical efforts. The third group looks much better in short skirts than the other two. Fellow ETer's, why the anti-Yes bias ? I just see Yes as a different face on the same die. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:03:18 +0000 From: Neil Talbott Subject: Soundscape Reviews - We'll Let You Know A long time since I wrote to these hallowed pages, but one thing provoked me to comment again and that was a letter from Joe Basile, when he mentioned I had done a few soundscape reviews, which is indeed correct. However, just to set the record straight, the aforementioned writings were originally published in the Fripp/KC fanzine WE'LL LET YOU KNOW, which is unmissable for any serious fan. Recent issues have covered - apart from reviews of recent KC related releases, the interesting career of Gordon Haskell, ProjeKct 1 in London, Dec 1997, a fascinating overview of Mike Kenneally. For a sample issue email darren dot woolsey at virgin dot com or mike dot madden at virgin dot com I was flattered by Joe's comments but feel that my soundscape musings are probably best read in the context of the magazine. Maybe someday I might do a website so people can browse my writings at leisure, but it's not high on my current priorities ... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Part II A few other comments while I'm here. 1) Reissues I'd most long for ... a) USA - with the 21st Century Schizoid man from Ashbury Park featured on the Maxi single, and if possible a full length EASY MONEY. The version of EASY MONEY on this album is way ahead my favourite but it fades tantalisingly too soon. Incidentally I have the 'bootleg' CD of this which cost me the same as a full price Discipline release, and I'm quite happy with it until the digitally remixed re-issue comes along b) The League of Gentlemen - I was able to hear this again recently (I only have the vinyl and no equipment to play it on) and it blew my socks off so much I thought it begged comparison with EXPOSURE. ENO VIDEO _ some issues ago someone was enquiring if there was an ENO video in circulation. Well I don't know of one in general circulation but I have certainly seen a video of ENO working and talking in his studio (Called EPV _Eno's Promotional Video, I assume), and it features a few seconds of Robert Fripp, as well as a few lileky lads like U2. BRUFORD - ASSAULT AND BATTERIE. There have been a few comments recently on Bruford's stature as a drummer. I'm not particularly interested on whether he's technically one-sided, or flawed, or whether he can lay down a basic beat, but I do know that his work over the years both with major bands like KC and YES and his own work with BRUFORD, and Earthworks has given me an immense amount of pleasure because I delight in his musicality. My favourite CDs of the moment are OK COMPUTER - RADIOHEAD, GYORGY LIGETI - piano studies (particularly the Devil's Staircase), and HEAVENLY BODIES the EARTHWORKS compilation. "Despite all attempts to constrain the power of music, the act of music is always remarkable." ROBERT FRIPP, AUGUST 10TH 1993. -- Neil Talbott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:59:04 -0600 From: "Ott, John" Subject: Fripp soulless?? >>> quote >> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:21:22 -0500 From: nightstryke at juno dot com (Brandon C Wu) Subject: Fripp and soul: so what? > And so I pose the question to my fellow fans out there: Does > Fripp have soul? And how would you define it? I would say no. My favorite guitarist is Pink Floyd's David Gilmour; his bluesy, emotional style is at complete odds with Fripp's mathematical precision. But even though Fripp may not play a warm, fuzzy style, he's still a great musician. I don't think "soul" is a requirement for a good guitarist. There is room in the music world for more than one type of quality guitar music. << Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:06:19 -0800 Subject: RE: Elephant Talk Digest #474 > > Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:21:22 -0500 > From: nightstryke at juno dot com (Brandon C Wu) > Subject: Fripp and soul: so what? > > > And so I pose the question to my fellow fans out there: Does > > Fripp have soul? And how would you define it? > [Greg Meredith] In _Languages of Art_, Nelson Goodman argues for a distinction between analogue and digital representation schemes. The basic distinction boils down to information content of the pair of closed feedback loops 1. going from performance to score to performance; 2. going from score to performance to score. A representation scheme is digital if no information is lost (in principle) in either loop. A representation scheme is analogue if information is necessarily lost in either loop. It should be understood that 'performance' and 'score' have more abstract or technical meanings in this context than their everyday English language meanings. Here a score may be thought of as any prescriptive representation of the "piece" (including an internal mental representation), and a performance is any faithful decoding of the prescriptive representation. My tentative claim is that the concept of "soul" being discussed here may be defined entirely in terms of analogue representation schemes. More specifically, Mr. Wu argues for undefinability. My claim is that his intuition is on the money, but his expression of the idea is a bit off. It's not undefinability, but *unrepeatability*. i would claim that performances of a "piece" that simply cannot be repeated, or that always seem a bit different are experienced by the audience as having more "soul". To anyone following the abstract definitions of score and performance above it should be clear that a representation scheme which is analogue will, when run through either feedback loop, give rise to differences from performance to performance, because information contained either in the score or the performance will be lost. My claim is that the only essential way in which nonrepeatability arises in humans performing music (and arts in general) is through one of the possible feedback loops not preserving total information content.When total information content is not preserved chaotic, or non-linear behavior may arise. This apparently "undefinable" behavior is what i would claim we associate with "soul". Common everyday sort of evidence for this claim arises from the western classical tradition of musical notation. The notation is entirely digital as a representation scheme. Programs like cakewalk, etc., make this perfectly clear. From score to midi-driven synthesizer performance to score will lose no information (in principle). But, if you give the same score to a human, the human will add information (small hesitations, slight emphasis, little irregularities), and if the human plays it back to some score transcribing program, many of the little irregularities will be lost. Indeed, this is why some human performers of Bach are considered wonderful, and others not so. Even negative evidence counts for this claim. Imagine if Mr. Gilmour's solos were exactly the same every night. Not a jot different. All the pauses, hesitations, emphasis, etc. was just the same. What would happen to one's experience of the "soul" in Mr. Gilmour's playing? This venue is not the place for more detailed discussion, but i would ask others to consider the definitions and proposal and see if they match up with intuition and experience. For those interested, it turns out that this notion of analogue and digital can be relativized. It is simply information loss that matters because that is what introduces non-linear dynamics which, for whatever reason, we humans tend to crave and associate with soul. Finally, to tie it back into Fripp's music, having recently spent a small amount of time in the Seattle Guitar Craft learning from Fripp face-to-face, i would argue that Fripp has spent a lot of time factoring aspects of music into the parts that can be controlled and reproduced at will (the digital parts) and the parts that apparently cannot be controlled and reproduced at will (the analogue parts). It would appear to me that in Fripp's music and, more importantly, in Fripp's approach to music, the non-linear dynamics come, predominantly, from the information the audience brings to the performance, and what the performer does by way of interpretation of that information. The digital dynamics come from the score and one's ability to faithfully render the score in performance (this is the discipline part of Fripp's approach to music). By separating these two aspects of the dynamics of a performance, Fripp has set up a framework in which the performer then has the possibility of introducing non-linear dynamics by being sensitized to the information available in the performance situation coming from anything other than the score. This allows the performer more control without losing that essential quality of unrepeatability. It is, essentially, a "soul" machine. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:37:31 EST From: CMakarov66 Subject: Re: ProjeKct 2 in Frisco Anybody has an extra ticket for the 22snd (Sunday night) in Great American Music Hall? CMakarov66 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:41:25 -0600 From: "Rob Murphree" Subject: Adrian's BelewPrints On Sale Hello All, Just a quick note concerning Adrian Belew's new release. Adrian Belew's new acoustic release, Belewprints, will be available on March 23rd through his management. Or if you are one of the fortunate who will make it to a ProjeKct 2 show, you will also be able to buy it there as well. It contains his acoustic versions of Cage, Dinosaur, Free As A Bird (The LIVE pre-KC show) and numerous songs from his solo career. To order, call or write: Adrian Belew Fan Club P.O. Box 8385 Cincinnati, OH 45208 U.S.A. 1 (513) 871-1500 U.S. I should have an order form from Adrian's management available on Adrian Belew's website within the next few days. They WILL ship overseas. However, additional postage rates will apply. The CD is $16.00. Or $25.00 if you would like the Collector's Edition (signed and numbered by Adrian). For more information, please visit the Adrian Belew WWW Site at: http://web.dbtech.net/~rhino Thank you! Rob Murphree ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:39:51 EST From: Matekudesy Subject: Upper Extremities & ProjecKt 2 Fellow Crimsonites: I just bought four tickets to go see Mssrs. Levin and Bruford: Upper Extremities at the Knitting Factory in NYC on April 18th, 1998. I think I paid 15 bucks for each ticket. I'm totally pumped. Additionally, I picked up two tickets to go check out Crimson's ProjecKt 2 on May 6th at Irving Plaza, New York City. I got the information from ET's website which listed two diffrent dates for the ProjecKt 2 performance (May 6th and 7th) but when I tried to buy tickets for the second night, the dude on the phone told me that no such date was available. Is there a second date? Be well, and keep rockin'. Aus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:01:38 -0500 From: Katherine Preston Subject: Larks' Tongues in Aspic This will probably sound rather bizarre, but... I'm an English Professor of Music, presently teaching at The College of William and Mary in Virginia. At both my home institution (Keele) and here, I've been teaching courses in British rock (specifically, the Beatles through progressive rock of the late 1970s). I've been surprised at how little serious writing there is about this music, with the notable exceptions of Edward Macan's book and a few other books. Do you know of any serious study of the two title tracks of "Larks' Tongues..."? I'm increasingly interested by the depth of musical inventiveness of these pieces, but also the apparent references to Vaughan Williams' "The Lark Ascending." Any information--or directions as to where to look within the ET list, or whatever, would be gratefully received. David Nicholls drnich at facstaff dot wm dot edu ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #475 ********************************