Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #473 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 473 Thursday, 12 March 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: ET KC Tribute Questionairre/Survey now online. NEWS: P2 dates and introverts NEWS: Satriani, Fripp, May NEWS: Re: Tony Levin Photo Exhibit NEWS: PROJEckT 2: only ONE date at Jazz Cafe, London. NEWS: Tony Geballe in NYC Who wants some Great Deceivers? Sheltering Sky/Thela Hun Jin Jeet TAB Projeckt 2 re: Bolero TAB REQUEST Robert Fripp: A Question of Soul Surveys, the K in ProjeKct, Absent Lovers, the Blues, Levin and Morse Bootsy Collins/Brand X One more thread nightmare Re: Exiles Mr. Mister / PROJEckT sponsorship? Ten Seconds & other DGM bands mho&soundscapes /steams&lent/Blues&Ferry&Trower/10sec. re: Is King Crimson Still A Band? Pete Sinfield Stands Firm / Palmer-James' exit from Supertramp KC difficult? (Re: ET #472) New Sealed Copy of Great Deceiver Box Set Spotted for sale! Boz Introvert vs. Extrovert - the ABBA connection. Wettons' Bass Technique Re: Is Crimson Still a Band? Derek Bailey 2 Giles the drummer Roxy thread fripp and silvin(sp?) on MTV KC's Live songs in Studio Albums and more Who's recording Sinfield Levin & Van Halen Re: Derek Bailey KC Giving Up the Funk Levin and Van Halen-Found It!! THE FAN....KING CRIMSON IS ALL THERE IS! fripp's music doesn't scream reality loud enough to some. Opinions ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWEB: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 04:26:00 PST From: Matt Walsh Subject: NEWS: ET KC Tribute Questionairre/Survey now online. Hello ETers, Just wanted to let everyone know that I (with much help from Dan Kirkdorffer) have set up a questionnaire for the upcoming Elephant Talk King Crimson "Tribute" and have put it on the ETWeb. The purpose of the Questionnaire is to gather information as to what the members of ET want for the tribute, so I'll have an idea what the final product should be when I take everything to the manufacturers. A few questions ask about money. Please remember that this is being sold at cost and whatever money is being put into the tribute is what will come out of it. I would ask if everyone could visit the site and fill out the questionnaire (PLEASE only fill out one per person/e-mail address). The more information, the better. I would also like to have all questionnaires in by the end of this month (March 31st). Hopefully by that time another survey-thingy will be up on the web as you will be able to vote on the artwork for the project. I have received a few pieces of artwork so far, and hope to have some more by the end of the month. Once again, artwork submissions are due to me by the end of the month as well. As I knew would happen, I made a minor mistake in the questionnaire once we finished it. I, being the selfish American bastard I am, made general remarks to monetary amounts which I of course meant American Dollars, not thinking there is the rest of the world to consider. So, for those questions, if you are not familiar with exchange rates to American Dollars for your country, please fill in monetary amounts in your currency and please note this in the comment box. If I think of any other things I missed, I'll let you know. Thanks to everyone for their interest and help in the project, and hopefully we will have a finished product out in the not-so-distant future. Once again my immense thanks to Dan Kirkdorffer for all his help. Of course, the ET website is at http://www.elephant-talk.com/ . There is a page with info on the tribute as well if you haven't the faintest idea what the hell I'm talking about. Any other questions, please feel free to contact me. Later, Matthew Walsh Software Engineer - Strategic Management Group mattw at smginc dot com mattmonkw at aol dot com Matt's personal CD jukebox - Currently playing and annoying co-workers with: Moonspell - "Irreligious" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 18:41:34 -0800 From: Kathy Ottersten Subject: NEWS: P2 dates and introverts Hi Crimpersons, Firstly, I have not seen it noted at ET, so I just want people to know that updated P2 dates are on the DGM site for the US east coast. They include one date at the IMAC in Huntington, NY (on Long Island). IMAC is a pretty neat little venue, and hosts alot of jazz artists. The IMAC has a web site (http://www.huntingtonli.org/imac/) with info on ordering tix, and is pretty limited in seating; so run, don't walk if you want to go. In regards to Marc Roemer's post: Crimpersons, sitting in their rooms, wearing headphones, staring at computer screens? Perish the thought... Kathy Ottersten "They come better looking, But they don't come mannered." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 01:16:39 -0800 (PST) From: Waldo Subject: NEWS: Satriani, Fripp, May Robert Fripp will be touring Europe with Satriani and May. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:31:24 -0000 From: "JP Jacob" Subject: NEWS: Re: Tony Levin Photo Exhibit Hello- I apologize to all who were unable to reach the Tony Levin photo show at the truncated web address that appeared in Elephant Talk #472. The correct address is: http://www.bu.edu/PRC/Oar/Exhibitions/Levin/tl-promo-1.htm John -------------- jpjacob at bu dot edu Photographic Resource Center at Boston University http://web.bu.edu/PRC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:42:06 -0000 From: "Brian Thomson, London UK" Subject: NEWS: PROJEckT 2: only ONE date at Jazz Cafe, London. I've been to the venue to buy tickets, and there will only be ONE night of PROJEckT-ing - on Thursday 16 April. They said "we heard that two nights have been advertised, but we don't know why". On their schedule, the Wednesday isn't booked for anyone else. Maybe the venue and DGM are waiting to see how well-subscribed the Thursday would be... The booking line is 0171 344 0044 (+44 171 ...). I've secured a 6-seat table above stage right above the downstairs bar that could be extended - if you'd like to join in, let me know, but expect to spend minimum 12 pounds on food, more likely 20 pounds on food and drink, if you do. See 'ya. Brian Thomson, London UK bnt at ibm dot net "If you view England from other cultures, you have to think of these Africans with the colours they are wearing on stage - the bright colours of the sea and the sun and the air, and the drumming ... and then you've got to think of this sodden little menopausal, miserable island in the northwest of Europe somewhere..." -- Bill Bruford, Guildford ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:03:24 -0800 (PST) From: diagonal flying Subject: NEWS: Tony Geballe in NYC I received the newsletter form the Downtown Music gallery here in NYC. They have a series of free concerts on Sunday evenings at 7PM. The concerts are in the store, which is a small store in the East Village. Anyway, Tony Geballe will be appearing Sunday, March 22 at 7. He is billed as a member of Trey Gunn's band. Downtown Music gallery (DMG) is a wonderful store with lots of CD's from the downtown New York scene, Canterbury, other UK and Euro avant/jazz/prog. The address is: DMG 211 E. 5th St. New York, New York, 10003 The email address is DMG at Panix dot com. You can subscribe to their newsletter via this address, I believe.. I picked up Tony Geballe's CD at J&R Music downtown NYC, it was part of a Rykodisc back catalog sale at $8.99. I also picked up several Bowie 70's releases, with much guitar from Fripp (Heroes, Scary Monsters) and Belew (Lodger). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:14:33 -0800 From: "Mr. Sparkle" Subject: Who wants some Great Deceivers? I am the manager of the local branch of a large, soulless music store. When I'm not eating caviar out of the pumps of this year's Rose Bowl queen in the back of my limo with the devil, I make good and damned sure that we have plenty of Crimson product. The result? Two copies of Great Deceiver, never opened. I have pulled them off the shelf, and are holding them for any ETers who want them. Here's the deal: It's 64.99 (list price), minus 10% discount, so @ 58.50, plus sales tax (6%), so @ 62.01; then I'll airborne it to you for 4.95, so total @ 66.96 delivered to your door in 2 days. I have 2, so it's first come first served. The best way to do this is to call me at work- I'm there plenty, at 919 489 3012- ask for Randy. You can read me a credit card number and it's yours. Don't miss this opportunity to line the pockets of corporate america! Mr. Sparkle You may remember me from such medical films as "Alice Doesn't Live Anymore" and "Mommy, What's Wrong With That Man's Face?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:17:49 -0500 From: "Wilmoth, Jim" Subject: Sheltering Sky/Thela Hun Jin Jeet TAB Anyone thought of writing TAB for Sheltering Sky or the Intro to Thela Hun Jin Jeet? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:16:55 -0500 From: "Mario Casella" Subject: Projeckt 2 Does adrian sing at all for the Projeckt 2 group? Also, does he exclusively play drums? Mario ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 03:02:53 EST From: Mikewyz Subject: re: Bolero peteward at nildram dot co dot uk spaketh: <> I think I see where he's coming from. I played in an orchestra that did it last year, and I admit I found it dull, when I had enjoyed it previously. And not just because I was in the bass section, where we have about SIX different notes for the whole piece. But in listening to it, the piece seemed very flat. There are only 2 different melodies that are played and the only thing that develops, until the end, is the orchestration. I think Ravel may have been referring to the lack of thematic development when he said it had "no music." Sheesh, the harmony doesn't even change till the end, all C major until the last 30 seconds or so.... I don't see such parallels between Bolero and LTiA2. LTiA2 "goes more places" to my ears, Bolero just stays in one place and changes color. Then at the end it gets up and walks out the door. Maybe a better comparison can be made w/ Bolero and Talking Drum, but that's closest that KC comes to it to me. /\/\ \/\/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 07:47:02 -0800 From: Amy Speak <"rspeak"@erols.com> Subject: TAB REQUEST I have tried other sources,but with no luck. Could someone send me or point me to the bass tab for Thela Hun Ginjeet? Thanks in advance. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:17:02 -0600 From: "Ced" Subject: Robert Fripp: A Question of Soul Greetings All: I've been a fan of our beloved KC for some 13 years now. Naturally, I try to spread this joy to other fellow music lovers who may otherwise have never noticed the band. I tend to meet with more failure than success, I'm afraid. But I keep trying. Since starting to play guitar a little over a year ago, I have worked hard at getting the members of my future band to appreciate Crimson as well. So that we may experience the joy of doing a cover or two. Here, I have been successful. With one exception. My bassist just doesn't see the point. I've played him many Crimson cuts. "Dinosaur," "Red," "Vroom," "The Talking Drum/Larks Tongues II," and several others. And at the end of each song, he says the same thing. "I just don't like Robert Fripp." "Why not?" I ask. "He's just too technically precise," he replied. "And?" "Well, there's just no soul in his playing," my bassist said. I was a bit dumbfounded by this. But after a great deal of thought, I understood what he was trying to say. We grew up in an age where "soul" was defined by r & b, jazz, and blues. The guitarists we loved (Eddie Hazel, Jimmy Page, Hendrix, etc.) were all good, but more than a little sloppy at times. Face it, you can play the wrong note in "Red House," or "Hootchie Kootchie Man," or "Dazed and Confused," or "Maggot Brain" and get away with it. As long as you were playing with "soul," it didn't matter if you hit the wrong note now and then. The feeling was there. You cannot, however, b.s. your way through "Lark's Tongues." If you play it wrong, fans of the song will know in an instant. Fripp's lack of facial expression and/or stage prescence didn't help my argument. Yet I argued as best as I could. Perhaps, I suggested, Fripp's "soul" lies completely in his hands. The precision could be (and in my mind is) the sign of an artist connected to a higher form of self. To compose music of this nature is no small feat. To be able to reproduce it on a consistent basis can be equally awe inspiring. One does not need to grimace in order to play the perfect note. Why not just do it? "Still," my bassist said, "I'd like to hear him improvise more." (It should be understood that Soundscaping, while completely improvised, does not count in this debate. We're talking strictly KC here.) And so I pose the question to my fellow fans out there: Does Fripp have soul? And how would you define it? As much as I think he has it, I'm having a great deal of trouble defining it. It's a question I would love to pose to the man himself. "Do you think you have soul? If so, where does it come from?" Hopefully, he would tell me, and not crack me over the head with a Fernandes. :) I'd like to know what you folks think. Until we meet again ... Peace, Ced St. Louis, MO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:22:19 -0600 From: "Dan Kirkdorffer" Subject: Surveys, the K in ProjeKct, Absent Lovers, the Blues, Levin and Morse In ET #472 TJ asked: >So to what degree are male ETers single? I suppose any demographic >questions on a list are rather rather (uh what is that French term for >contrary?), heck I would misspell it anyhow. Contraire? Oppose? Whatever. Actually my interest in TJ's post is that I am planning on creating a page at ET Web dedicated to ET surveys. We've had a number of surveys performed in the past, but what I'd like to do is have a weekly or monthly survey that ETers can respond to and view results of. The page would have the current survey and provide access to the results of previous ones. Suggestions for surveys are welcome. I'd like to keep them short and focused. I think this will enable us to cater to those interested in such things without cluttering the digest with them. Also in ET #472 Les discovered: >Maybe this was mentioned in ET and I missed it but I was thinking >about the name PROJEKCT TWO, and why the K. It did not take me >long to realize that the K was before the C, KC :) Along with Mastelotto and VROOOM, the spelling of ProjeKct (as used in the fractal KC groupings) has got to rank at the top of most often misspelled words in this digest. Of course this is just another test by the Frippster to see how attentive we all are, with the added twist of special capitalization (as seen in THRaKaTTaCK as well). Most of us seem to fail miserably in that regard. Anyway thanks Les for being brave enough to point out what seemed to me quite obvious long ago, although I'm sure a few digests from now someone will still ask why there is a K in ProjeKct! Further along in ET #472 Ashley said: >I read with interest ET 471 and was puzzled but delighted to read >that the soon to be released Absent Lovers album is to be a double >cd. I'm wondering whether this release will include tracks not >included on the original bootleg I must be missing something here. Ashley is not the first to make the assumption that the upcoming "Absent Lovers" Official DGM Bootleg will be based on the bootleg recording by the same name. I have yet to read anywhere that this link exists. If indeed the DGM release will be based on the same show that the bootleg was, I find it strange that the name of the official release was chosen to be the same of the bootleg release (although I find it strange anyway, regardless of the association). Maybe someone can clarify this? Confusion will be my epitaph! Even further along in ET #472 Paul wrote: >I now recall Fripp's response to a question about the blues during an >appearance on the 2nd Frippertronics tour (in Guelph, Ontario I think >it was) and he made a joke about the cliched lyrics like "my domestic >partner has absconded with my wages and taken up with the butcher". >"What happens if you play blues music backwards? Your wife returns to >you, your dog comes back to life, and you get out of prison .... " Now I know the Blues got its name for a reason, but I tend to associate such musical tragi-comedy more with Country music, often described as the easiest music to write lyrics to. Finally, Wade asked in ET #472: >Did Tony Levin spend some time playing with Steve Morris and "The Dixie >Dreggs"? I seem to remember his name with Peter Gabriel too.... That would be Steve Morse. I don't know of an association with Morse or Dixie Dregs, but Tony has been Gabriel's bassist since the beginning of time! Well almost that long :^) Toodles, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:45:27 -0500 (EST) From: the ugly truth Subject: Bootsy Collins/Brand X > Mike I was listening to some Parliment Funkadelic the other night and I was > suprised to see how much it reminded me of Percy Jones (Brand-X). There is > something to be said about the sound of a "Funky Bass". I wonder whom > Bootsy would consider his influences? > > Les B. Labbauf I'll try to get a bit of info in before Toby clips this thread short. While I can't speak for Bootsy (I've been waffling on what Parliament or Funkadelic album I should start with, as what I've heard was uneven), Percey Jones of Brand X is very similar to--sometimes, as on "Masques," the long lost twin of--you guessed it, Stanley Clarke, who comes from the band of a completely separate musical mastermind (with philosophical difficulties). Stanley Clarke is widely known as the man who "invented" the slap bass technique which can be found occasionally in Tony Levin's playing. -=- I know a monster when I see one in the mirror. --------------------==== Broken via True Love ====------------------- http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 Butcher, Rape, Smash to Pieces ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:45:44 -0700 From: Eb Subject: One more thread nightmare >From: kate dot d at virgin dot net > >Regarding the 10+ list...god, it's huge, nearly 600 artists on it so far >with nearly 60 contributors, we'd like more though, so anyone who wishes to >do so, do. It's become not so much 10+ but "who do you love?" so even if >you have one album, but ya reeeeaaallllyy like it send us your choice. Well, jeez...it sounds like the list has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever, then. Either it's "10+" or it isn't. A mere "Who do you love?" poll is of no interest to me. Oh...and as for people wondering about Greg Lake's work on the Pete Sinfield album Still, remember that there's a track from this album on the new double-disc Lake compilation on Rhino. You know, the album with the worst cover artwork in the history of mankind.... Eb Date: 10 Mar 1998 17:58:13 -0500 ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Exiles From: dfan at harmonixmusic dot com (Dan Schmidt) Christopher Carl Heckman writes: | Included at the end of this e-mail are the chords I've worked out | for "Exiles". The middle section is a bit iffy, but in any case, if | anyone wants to add to or modify what I've done, they are of course | welcome. I'm kind of confused by your chords, to the point that I wonder if we are hearing the same song :) [Christopher's chords elided - they mainly go back and forth between Am and Em] Here are the chords I hear: Intro: Drone on Em, then C Bm Am D C D C Bm Am Verse: D C D C Bm Am. Wetton sometimes plays an A underneath either one of the C chords. Intro, Verse, Verse Bridge: D C#m G F#m Bm Am Gm F# F#dim7 G F# Bb Verse Verse x4 (instrumental) End: D C D C B Em I don't have my copy of Larks' Tongues on me, so I jotted this down from the version on The Nightwatch, but it should be basically the same except for maybe more or fewer instrumental verses. Dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:07:38 -0000 From: "Brian Thomson, London UK" Subject: Mr. Mister / PROJEckT sponsorship? Someone mentioned Mr. Mister on list a few issues ago, and I dug out my copies of "Welcome To The New World" and "go on". The latter brought back all kinds of memories - it was one of the inspirations for my switching to a 5-string bass. Of course, I later discovered that Richard Page was playing a top-of-the-line Steinberger M-series bass, with Carbon Composite neck and all that stuff. The drumming, while loud and 80s, is definitely something worthwhile to listen to - try "The Tube" from "go on" for a taste. All-in-all, Mr. Mister IMHO doesn't deserve the negative comments I've seen here on ET. One surprise I found in the Mr. Mister Biography (at http://www.itv.se/~va106/mrpages/index.html) was that Mr. Mister recorded a whole album, "Pull", in 1988, which was never released since they broke up. If it's as much of an improvement over "go on" as that was over "Real World", I want to hear it! Something was bothering me about the way the word "PROJEckT" has been spelt - the way the "ck" is in lower case. I was also wondering (aloud on ET a while ago) whether Robert or Trey were enjoying sponsorship from t.c. electronics of Denmark, since they use so much of their gear... I should have been thinking in bigger terms. After all, the Rolling Stones and Pink Floyd can be sponsored by VW ... "ck" ... perhaps KC is sponsored by CK - Calvin Klein! (Would a whiff of "Eternity" perfume go well with Soundscapes? Ask Brian Eno, the perfume expert...) Brian Thomson, London UK bnt at ibm dot net PS: Toby: have you tried Deep Heat on that Elephant's Foot? [ Brings me out in a rash, unfortunately. -- Toby ] PPS: Happy Birthday: Sharon Stone - 40 today! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 20:08:24 -0500 Subject: Ten Seconds & other DGM bands From: nightstryke at juno dot com (Brandon C Wu) >consider to be, besides KC, the premier group on DGM. It would be a true >shame if Ten Seconds' debut album was also its last. I'd have to agree, but from what little I've heard I doubt they'll release another. For one thing, take a look at the credits on the album - two people in the actual band, with the rest listed as "contributors". That indicates an unstable at best relationship between the musicians. Plus, I heard a rumor that Fayman, Ten Seconds' keyboardist and the second member of the band, backed out of the project, leaving... Bill Forth. Someone with a more solid knowledge of the situation might want to comment; most of my info is based on rumor and educated guessing. Speaking of other DGM artists, though, I can't wait for California Guitar Trio's new one. On the same vein of thought, I'd like to hear some opinions on Tony Geballe's acoustic 12-string release ("Native of the Rain"), as well as Levin et.al.'s "From the Caves of the Iron Mountain" (?). Also, has anyone heard Los Gauchos Alemanes' album? One of the tracks ("Voices of Ancient Children" - a really cool piece) is on the DGM sampler CD but the CD seems to be released by a separate label. Brandon Wu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 19:56:14 PST From: "Joseph Basile" Subject: mho&soundscapes /steams&lent/Blues&Ferry&Trower/10sec. As a teen I remember telling my brother he would buy anything by Jimi Hendrix and love it...as a slap to my brother,not JiMi. Well now he tells me the same thing about Fripp. Michael Flaherty last post on soundscapes were awesome to me. Maybe my bro was right,Idon't know,but many eters postings have keyed me into many parts of soundscapes, parts that I never realised were there.I could be one of those lambs the press talkabout,but I do get chills listening to many.Especially live!The web page review has many insiteful reviews on this subject, that I used. . But I feel one contributor to ET is too modest to put his reviews on to the web page. Neil Talbot has written a few soundscape reviews of live concerts that put you there, or wish you were! As a true rabid crimson fan & RF man, Neil I feel you should put these on the review page for all to learn and and enjoy. Even his short reviews of soundscape cds' have great points of reference and seem to describe the sounds so brilliantly! LOVE THE ET STREAMS...DARK CORNERS, OSMOSIS,UPNORTH,ALL IS FORGIVEN, PRIMED31+,and more! Et you amze me! It would be hard to give up you for lent! Know I saw a Trower article back in the 80's. Robin said he gave Robert the guitar for Matte Kuduisa as a gift. Trower also said that he tried to get Boppin Bobby into the blues, but Bobby thought the blues were to limiting. On the Trower thread ,or Roxy Music thread...Taxi is a favorite CD of mine. One because of Ferry ! Two because Trower produced it,and plays all over this...super!!! Blaine Arnold, I agree! I am very much looking forward to the next TEN SECONDS CD! I swear I saw a video of them , before I knew it was them. I think it was an MTV buzz clip. Help me. The Bill Forth article ET posted was excellent. (Toby what issue was this...triva train?)Forth even emailed me once over Christmas ! Bill Forth and Trio.I think? Don't Drink To Much Green Ale, Joe [ Finding Bill Forth's post is a perfect application for the incredible ET Archives search engine, accessible via ETWeb -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:52:28 -0600 From: "KEVIN O'CONNOR" Subject: re: Is King Crimson Still A Band? In ET#472, Les asked: > "Supposedly there is another live CD from 1995 ready for release. Plus > Space Grooves from Projekct Two. What more can a Crimson fan ask for?" > How about some new music and a tour from the Double Trio? Regards, Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 02:12:42 -0500 From: Dwight Hodge Subject: Pete Sinfield Stands Firm / Palmer-James' exit from Supertramp "Douglas Robillard" wrote: >Subject: Sinfield and "Still" > >"The Song of the Seagoat," the opening track, had a melody taken from a >guitar concerto in D minor by Vivaldi. I haven't heard "Stillusion"; how >does it differ from the original album? It's the same album with a different track order and 2 songs from an uncompleted follow-up thrown in. >Is Sinfield still writing lyrics? Who's recording his songs these days? Indeed he is, and this reminded me of an article I saw in the Toronto Globe and Mail (February 20 1998) called 'Songwriters bow to dion's tune'. The gist of the article is that Celine Dion demands (and gets) a cut of her songwriters' royalties, essentially in return for doing them the honour of recording their songs. The interesting bit: "...Pete Sinfield is the type of songwriter who can't easily be squeezed. 'It'll come back to her' Sinfield predicts. But he chuckles gently. He has, he remarks, bought a new apartment with the proceeds of Think Twice, Dion's first major English hit. 'They didn't ask for publishing for Think Twice, but for the next album they wanted 10 or 20 per cent of another of our songs, which we refused. They finally decided it wouldn't look good for her to be taking a percentage from the people who wrote the song which broke her all over the world.' " So there you go. No doubt Mr Fripp would have a few reasoned words for Mrs Dion and her manager on the subject of copyright, and Sinfield appears to have a very good relationship with his bank manager. Kevin Holm-Hudson wrote: >As for Richard Palmer-James and why he left Supertramp, my 1977 Harmony >Illustrated Encyclopedia of Rock tells me that he stuck around for their >second album _Indelibly Stamped_ (by which time their first drummer had a >nervous breakdown and they had to audition 200 others before finding a >replacement!), but the band then broke apart after a disasterous Norwegian >tour. Sounds like he wasn't one to throw in the towel so early. Palmer-James did not appear on Indelibly Stamped. In 'The Supertramp Book', a biography of the band, the authors state that Richard never got along with Roger Hodgeson and Rick Davies. Curiously, the man who was financing the group at the time, Sam, made the decision to keep Roger (by buying Roger's contract to a music company he was working for at the time) and ditch Richard. Palmer apparently wrote the following note to Sam: "And the Devil he said 'Sit down! Sit down, you're rocking the boat!' Okay, I'll sit down. Apologies and love, Richard." His note to the band is said to have been simply "Fuck you!". In short, I think it was that catch-all, musical and personality differences. Dwight Hodge www.magmacom.com/~ddhodge ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:52:34 +0000 From: Andreas Schoter Subject: KC difficult? (Re: ET #472) Hi folk... In ET #472 Peter Ward continued: >In ET 470, Darren Frank vouchsafed: >>> In ET #468, Cedric says: <...snip...> >> I totally agree....KC has never been an easy listen, but if you're >> willing >> to give it a few (dozen) listens, it'll definitely grow on you > >For me, this has been true for _every_ King Crimson album, most especially >the first and Lizard, which I really struggled with initially. The *first* time I heard Discipline (I'd guess in '82) it blew me away! This was really my intro to KC - I'd not been aware of them before this. Stockhausen is difficult, Ligeti is difficult. Sure, KC aren't "easy listening" (bleuch!), but I don't see them as "difficult". Yes, there's a complexity to their music that rewards repeated listening, and reveals itself over time, but this doesn't stop me (generally) getting a pretty quick "in" to the music on some level. The exception to this is the extended improv on THRaKaTTaCK. Here's a contentious statement: I'm not sure these people are particularly exceptional improvisors. Some of the jazz improv I've heard is truely brilliant and puts the scripted music in the shade. But with KC I always feel that the scripted music outshines the improv. But then, perhaps I just don't understand exactly what they're up to with this stuff yet... >... I think I would now find it strange >if I played a new Crimson album and immediately liked it as much as the >others. That always comes after several plays. Nothing that I heard after listening to Discipline really grabbed me like that immediately, so yes, I guess the rest have grown more over time. Until I heard Thrak... >> Anyone want to back me up that Thrak could be the best KC album ever? ...yep - I reckon so. Andreas ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:34:19 -0500 From: "RAYMOND J RAUPERS JR." Subject: New Sealed Copy of Great Deceiver Box Set Spotted for sale! On Sunday March 8, 1998 I spotted a new sealed copy of the box set "The Great Deceiver" for sale at one of my favorite record shops. I believe the price is $58.99 (A bargain). Pertinent info is as follows: AREA Records & Music, PO Box 949, 74 Seneca Street, Geneva, NY 14456-0949 Tel# (315) 789-9131 The owners name is "MIKE" They do of course take credit cards. Please let Mike know that Raymond J. Raupers Jr. from 22 Pine Street, Waverly, NY 14892 (607) 565-3638 sent you. My e-mail is RayRaupersJr dot at prodigy dot net Hope you enjoy your copy as much as I enjoy mine. PS: I am willing to help anyone overseas procure this particular copy if shipping etc. is a problem. Also please explain to "Mike" the fever in which ET'rs need Crimsoid releases as his is a college town operation and doesn't feel KC is of high interest to his major market. A very reasonable gentleman and excellent salesperson he may need very little encouragement to stock more DGM releases and encourage me to travel the 120 miles round trip to his establishment more often. Thanks! Ray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 8:47:29 -0500 From: DAN at ELIZPL dot ORG Subject: Boz Todays stupid question is: On the Islands recording, why is Boz credited with "choreography"? Now, I seem to remember a very old video clip of Boz with Bad Co. where Boz can be seen stumbling around the stage like some sort of bass playing Frankenstein... Was the choreography credit just a goof on Boz's stage presence??? +peace+ DanC. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan dot Maguire at CERT dot IE Subject: Introvert vs. Extrovert - the ABBA connection. Ctao wrote: >In responding to what I assume was a tongue in cheek reference to >Tony as a "bass whore", Ryan S. stated that "agreeing to play on just >anybody's album is really giving away your artistic integrity".And >which >sessions is Ryan referring to? Gabriel? Torn? Armatrading? The >Roches? Andy Summers? Maybe Paul Simon, Yes, and >post-Waters Pink Floyd, but one could certainly do worse. Well how about Agnetha Whatsername from Abba, is that worse enough for you? And while we're on the subject, Anderson Bruford Wakeman and Howe...Uuugghh!!! All excellent musicians, no doubt about it, but that album is awful (in my opinion), and the Bass adds nothing to it, if you ask me. marc_i_roemer_at_dsd at ccMail dot Census dot GOV Wrote: >Since the "women and KC" thread may be dying a slow yet predictably >temporary death, may I suggest a more compelling distinction between >listeners: introverts and extroverts. I get the impression that >introverts are overrepresented among Fripp- and KC- listeners, >relative to the general population. Fripp's description >of us as holed up in our bedrooms with the headphones on also fits. >Robert has assessed himself an introvert, and I wonder if extroverts >in the audience really hear the same thing as us. I think this is an excellent point. Party Animal types rarely connect with what KC has to offer, in my experience. But heres my quandry: Fripp admits to being introverted himself, yet he still seems disdainful of the fact that his audience is made up of Sincere young men, litening to KC on headphones in our bedrooms. Well Robert, ever heard the expression You reap what you sow? Perhaps Fripp should be the one doing albums with ex-Abba members, if he wants to connect with a hipper audience. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 06:28:49 -0800 (PST) From: diagonal flying Subject: Wettons' Bass Technique I confess, I spent much of the 80's playing around Pittsburgh in various situations heavily influenced by 70's Crimson, Eno, Bowie, etcc. People used to ask me about my sound, which would be familiar to most of you reading this. When asked about my sound, I would simply respond: "John Wetton, King Crimson, 1973". Slapping and popping like Larry Graham or Bootsy is not it, folks. But if you play loud enough, through the right equipment, such as a Fender Precision Bass with 70's amps, you can get a "sticky" sound that can be confused with the slap sound. Much of this comes from the P-Bass, and the amp overdrive... The "Flicking " technique likely involves (as it does for me) the use of one finger, rapidly over the string. The string is flicked around the tip of the finger, often using part of the fingernail. You can get real fast with this, often faster than with the typical two-finger playing style, moving across strings can be more difficult, however... And Tony Levin, God who walks as bass player on earth? He can play anything, (well almost, I suppose) ------------------------------ Date: 11 Mar 98 10:19:00 -0500 From: Greg Bastug Subject: Re: Is Crimson Still a Band? >>Well since 1994 we have had: VROOM - EP THRAK - Full Lenght Studio CD. B'BOOM - 2CD Live Set THRaKaTTaCK - Dangerous Live Improv Supposedly there is another live CD from 1995 ready for release. Plus Space Grooves from Projekct Two. What more can a Crimson fan ask for?<< Hmmm - more new material for one. I know that good things take time, but it seems that Crimson as a full, six-member active band is not visible on the horizon. Is it economics, personalities, schedules, Guitar Craft, or the ongoing search for musical reinvention? Whatever - four years is a wee bit of time... I thought I read here a year ago that Crimson would conduct some preliminary touring in late '97, in preparation for a Spring '98 release, followed by a full-fledged tour in the summer and fall. Now, we have the muscial version of beta tests, which, while I'll support, does not promise what a completed release of new work would. If just about any other band released four or five CD's, all fundamentally the same material, they'd have a tough time refuting the accusation that they were simply milking their fan base. I'm a great admirer of Fripp and KC, so it's with some difficulty that I say: I get the feeling that RF feels (rightly) supremely screwed by his past contractual relationships, and seems highly determined to make his money back through reissues of the catalog and archived live performances. This he has every right to do, but if such a focus is at the detriment of new work, then admirers of Fripp and KC, who have been elevated to high levels of expecations by the quality of past work, will be left wanting. Of course, all this is my (our) problem, not theirs. I'd be quite happy to be torn down and ripped to shreds with a response of a new album release date, tour schedule, the master plan, blah blah blah.... Thanks Greg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:23:31 -0000 From: "Nick Smith" Subject: Derek Bailey 2 In the cold light of day, I thought my previous posting (ET#472) seemed to smack of a kind of cultural elitism I normally find unpalatable and petty. The implication before seemed to be that improvised music represents some kind of intellectual 'secret society'. This is patently bunk. I hope that anyone interested in following the thread will investigate the two CD's mentioned as I'm sure they will be greatly rewarded. I admit that stylistically the leap from Fripp to Metheny is a pretty big one, and then onto Bailey is even bigger. However that's no reason not to follow the music and make the jump in the first place. Also the comparison I made between these two discs and "THRaKaTTaK" is a bit dubious and misplaced. Apart from being entirely improvised there is no real comparison, seeing as they were conceived and recorded in totally different circumstances. "THRaKaTTaK" undoubtedly contains some absolutely stunning music. We should be glad that Crimson were brave enough to dump the script and attempt to leave the venue via the balconies when performing live, and that DGM had the iron will to put the disc out. It's only occasionally the music sounds almost like non-committal twiddling and therefore not great improvisation. However this is in the very nature of the music and is part & parcel of the process that allows us to enjoy and wonder at six such talented and individual musicians roaring with one voice 'in the moment' as it were. If this seems a mite contradictory, the point I'm trying to make is that not all King Crimson improv is great, and not all non King Crimson improv is garbage. Nick Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:58:52 -0400 (GMT-0400) From: "Rafael E. Zamora G." Subject: Giles the drummer The McDonald and Giles cd exists in a japanese version. I got it from cduniverse as an imported album. I suppose that many cds stores on line can offer it. Rafael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:22:35 -0700 (MST) From: Jim Bauer Subject: Roxy thread Maybe it's time to just let the Roxy theme die, save for the Sinfield/first Roxy album connection and the Wetton conection mentioned here, leave that for a Roxy newsletter, if there is one (anyone with a URL there, forward it to me.) Seems a couple people were ticked off by my naming COUNTRY LIFE as the "worst" Roxy Music album. In my post I mentioned the admittedly brilliant Thrill of it All, but was cussed out by some guy for neglecting "Casanova" and "Prairie Rose." Casanova was done better on the solo LP LET'S STICK TOGETHER, which had Wetton on bass, as did the live Roxy Music album--another Crimson connection. Anyway, the only reason I chose COUNTRY LIFE as weakest is because every OTHER song is weak, and those particular weak songs bring down the whole album. When I said that the rest of the album sucked, this is what I was referring to, not condemning the songs I do like. As far as listening to the words goes, I'm a published author and I always listen to words more closely to music since I'm a poet. No, I'm about as big a Ferry fanatic as I am a KC fan and feel that ALL KC is good, ALL Roxy is good. It's just that, if I had to pick a "worst" album for Roxy, it'd be COUNTRY LIFE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:25:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ryan S Subject: fripp and silvin(sp?) on MTV While watching the "real world" in the background I KNOW I heard a part of "Jean the Birdman" from the First Day CD. What gives? I would love to see Fripp as a member of the cast. How long would it take him to be ostracized from the others? RS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:32:34 +0100 From: Giuseppe Rallo Subject: KC's Live songs in Studio Albums and more Hi Eters, I'd need some informations I'm sure you debated a lot HERE. Where gigs have been taken the live songs in SatBB and Red from ? And which concerts concerning the songs in U.S.A. ? I know, it's a boring question for you. Thanks for any private e-mail that will answer me. Giuseppe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:23:09 -0000 From: "Ballentyne" Subject: Who's recording Sinfield In ET Digest #472, Doug Robillard asked, "Is Sinfield still writing lyrics? Who's recording his songs these days?" Of all possible spooky answers to that question ... he penned the lyrics to Celine Dion's number one hit, "Think Twice". I did find that rather hard to believe, and went to my local record store to check it out, and there it is in the CD booklet (unless there are two lyricists of the same name!) Yeah, I know, I know ... I felt just the same when I found out! Must have earned him a few bob though! George M. Ballentyne, Oakham, England ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:56:44 -0500 From: M & M Subject: Levin & Van Halen jb asks: "I swear to god this really happened (not part of the "dream" thread) ... I was watching tv about 1986...some awards show....Eddie Van Halen comes onstage and starts playing the intro from "hot for teacher"...just at the climax of the riff, a 6- foot-tall bald-man playing a fender bass lunges out of nowhere to complete the blistering head...guess who? papa bear I know I was not seeing things...please someone help me confirm this" No, you weren't dreaming. This was a TV special honoring Les Paul. It can be rented or bought on videotape as (I believe) "Les Paul And Friends". The TLev/Van Halen thing is nothing great, but it is a fun little jam. Les Paul steals the show. Even in his later years, he still wails on guitar. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:24:02 -0500 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi?= Bissonnette Subject: Re: Derek Bailey Nick Smith wrote: "So Darren Franck found the Bailey/Metheny "Sign Of 4" a bit difficult to swallow? I suggest he goes to great lengths to avoid the recently released ( hats off to Organ Of Corti) CD reissue of the old Incus LP "Selections From Live Performances At Veritys Place", with Bailey in the saddle with Dutch drummer and madman Han Bennink. Recorded in glorious lo-fi in 1972 and once among Bill Bruford's Top 10 albums, surely two men have never made so much noise. He probably wouldn't therefore give houseroom to the Incus CD reissue of "Dart Drug" with Bailey in duet with former Crimson percussionist Jamie Muir recorded some eleven years later. Two extraordinary and different examples of living, breathing improvisation at it's best, against which "THRaTTaK" seems rather limp and inconsequential." And I must add to that: very well said. To hear more of Bailey, I suggest the recent Arcana: The Last Wave, which features Derek on electric guitar, Tony Williams (one of his very last recordings) on drums, and Bill Laswell on 8-string bass. Totally improvised, it is the result of only one meeting of these three monsters and is great nonetheless. BTW, I still think that King Crimson is a great band (especially when it comes to composed material). Bruno Bissonnette Remi Bissonnette Ph.D. Professeur titulaire Faculte d'Education physique et sportive Universite de Sherbrooke Sherbrooke, Quebec J1K 2R1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:53:15 -0800 From: Nate Olmos Subject: KC Giving Up the Funk Hello There, Fellow ET Readers: Reading (as is my usual habit) my "Rolling Stone Album Guide", I looked up the section reserved for King Crimson. The essay about the group mentioned something about "Three of a Perfect Pair" introducing funk elements to the group's sound. I have to dispute the essay's statement. For all you who happen to own "Discipline" and "Beat" along with "Three of a Perfect Pair", the funk elements are already apparent in the group's music. Just listen to tracks like "Elephant Talk", "Discipline" and "Thela Hun Ginjeet". Bassist Tony Levin and drummer Bill Bruford are locked tight (essential for "funking") into creating some dazzling grooves (regardless of whether Levin is playing bass or Chapman Stick). They may have been composed in irregular meters, but they still groove! I will admit, I have yet to listen to "Beat" and "Three of a Perfect Pair", but I have listened to "Discipline" (the album) and to me, I can already detect the funk elements within the music. Feel free to dispute me on this point, but the funkiness of KC might have been evident in the 1973-1974 incarnation. On which tracks I cannot recall, but it might be evident in some of their recordings. Sincerely, Nate ------------------------------ From: "Rich Malitz" Subject: Levin and Van Halen-Found It!! Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:57:38 PST Greetings ETers, I believe in Post #472, Jonathon Benfield said he remembers seeing an awards show circa 1986 which had Eddie Van Halen performing "Hot For Teacher" with papa bear Tony Levin. My friends, I have arrived for clarification. This awards show was not an awards show, but a tribute in 1988 to Les Paul himself which featured many guitar greats. Being an old Van Halen freak for many years (until I found KC :)! ) I had this on a compilation of VH stuff. If a Crimson fan didn't have it, wouldn't a VH fan? Besides, it features Ed. Anyway, Tony appears for about 4 minutes solid, jamming along with Eddie, an unknown drummer, and, very out of place, Jan Hammer on a keytar. They do a little mix of "Hot For Teacher" and what sounds a little like VH's "Man On A Mission", and this is a rehearsed jam, so it does change around quickly. Let me tell you it is hard rock and fast! Tony cooks! This video may be available at your local outlet friend, and check out Les Paul, he blows them all away!!! I believe it is called "Les Paul and Friends." Where was Fripp by the way? :) Take care and goodbye from Chicago, Rich Malitz P.S. - You may recall my "graphic" review of Projekct 2 in Nashville a few ETs ago. One more thing-- SEE IT!!! :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:50:46 -0800 From: "Shane & May Beck" Subject: THE FAN....KING CRIMSON IS ALL THERE IS! HELLO THERE, I HOPE YOU DONT THINK I AM NUTS, BUT I TRIED EVERY THING ELSE....I AM THE BIGGEST KING CRIMSON FAN AROUND, ALL I HAVE EVER WANTED IS TO ONE DAY GET AN AUTOGRAPHED PHOTO OF KING CRIMSON....I REALIZE THAT IS SCARY, BUT NONE THE LESS....IT IS MY DREAM. IF THERE IS ANY WAY YOU CAN HELP ME OUT, PLEASE DO SO, IT WOULD MEAN THE WORLD TO ME . THE FAN....ALWAYS. SHANE BECK 3435 ARTESIA BLVD #30 TORRANCE, CA 90504 USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:50:57 +0100 From: "napier's bones" Subject: fripp's music doesn't scream reality loud enough to some. > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:39:32 EST > From: Ctao > > Let's abolish first names for a gender neutral ET! gender issues are very important, and at first thought i'd say that's a good idea in the name of civility, but it may actually protect idiocy. those who can't deal with the fact that there are two genders with a relationship that, while steeped in a history of misunderstanding, is much more complex than what any number of stereotypes can describe will probably not progress from a state of ignorance unless they are persistently confronted with REALiTY. (the small i is for irony) i may be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time), as what might protect idiocy in this case would definitely protect those who are confronted most unkindly with it (why is it so seldom that the idiots themselves are confronted with it?). the question is which is more important? how much are idiotically-acting people bound to learn? everyone has potential. gender stereotyping, like ethnic, racial, religious, political, sexuality, or other stereotyping seems to me to surely require one basic thing: lack of imagination. it would appear that people who indulge in stereotyping and especially its more aggressive forms, prejudice and bigotry, have rarely, if ever, truly tried to imagine what it is like to be the object of such misunderstanding. the question is why? is it so difficult? have they ever tried? did it ever even occur to them? it is true that stereotypes are often somehow anchored in fact, but that is practically irrelevant to the more interesting questions of how and why stereotypes are employed and propigated, or whether there can be any use for stereotypes besides simplification of thought processes. my post is not a challenge to the above-offered solution but is merely a contribution to an issue that is not dead, even if the thread is killed (which would be very convenient for idiocy). it seems that many crimson fans consider themselves (often loudly) to be somewhat intelligent and perceptive. few of the loudest seem to interested in proving it outside of tiny technical realms. discussion? tony may not be conducive, but private debate is welcomed. guess my gender. better still, guess what? for the purposes of elephant talk and robert fripp it shouldn't matter. anyone who says differently isn't impressing me with their intellect or their view of reality. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:55:40 -0500 (EST) From: "William T. Wallace" Subject: Opinions It amazes me how unaccepting some ETers are of the music of everyone else but KC or what Fripp seems to like. I've been reading this post for almost a year and have noticed countless derogatory remarks concerning Yes, ELP, and others. While the music of these bands may be different from KC and may not be to your taste, what gives you the right to put it down? If not for Yes, I would have never been exposed to KC or many other "progressive" bands. We all have opinions, but not everybody needs to hear them. Billy Wallace "Those frogs are gonna pay..."-Louie "Louie, you are one sick lizard."-Frankie ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #473 ********************************