Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #472 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 472 Monday, 9 March 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Tony Levin Photo Exhibit NEWS: DC - ET local chapter NEWS: Complete Soundscape Reviews on ET WEB PROJEkcT 2 in London / Synergetics ratiocination "Red" blues and Palmer(-James) Exiles / R.A.Wilson different ax, same grinding wheel housewives against Crimson Frippin Funk! Is King Crimson Still A Band? Projekct Two - Possible Meaning Sinfield and "Still" The Crimson experience, Giles the drummer, Ravel's Bolero Richard Palmer-James Problems with Audio Re: Roxy One More Thread Nightmare... Belew and NIN Re: Fripp & the Blues TL & "Selling Your Music" Screaming REALITY One more P2/Nashville note: STEREO tony and eddie Dumb Question of the Day Muir, Giles, Tippett Support for Ten Seconds DON'T DISS SEELY! Another Blues Reference, and Wetton's Technique, TL "Whoring"? Derek Bailey USA What's better, what's best, who cares Fripp vocal King Crimson & Jethro Tull ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWEB: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:15:01 -0000 From: "JP Jacob" Subject: NEWS: Tony Levin Photo Exhibit Hello- You may be interested to know that I have finally got Tony Levin's photo exhibit online. Extended Play, an exhibit of visual art by musicians, was originally presented at the Photographic Resource Center in Boston last summer. The address is: http://www.bu.edu/PRC/Oar/Exhibitions/Levin/tl-promo-1.htm Let me know if you encounter any problems. Enjoy! John ------ http://web.bu.edu/PRC ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:28:04 -0500 From: "dumela" Subject: NEWS: DC - ET local chapter There is now a site for Washington, DC - ET. You can read about the DC - ET cosmic connection there and confirm dates for local events. Many hands arose at the Birchmere soundscape show when Robert asked for a show of ETer's hands. So a few of us decided there was a need. For now it's only flyer like so suggested improvements are welcome. tj dumela at nicom dot com http://www.tidalwave.net/~dumela/index~1.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:12:23 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: NEWS: Complete Soundscape Reviews on ET WEB From time to time there are questions in these pages as to which Soundscapes readers may recommend, or even as to why anyone would listen to this "terrible music". I would like to direct readers who are interested in such questions to the "Robert Fripp Releases" section of ET Web where, after considerable effort, I have managed to write descriptive reviews of all of the major Soundscape releases (thanks to Dan, the hardest working man on the Web!). My purpose in writing the reviews is primarily personal: they forced me to listen more attentively to the Soundscapes, and to attempt to put what I react to into words. The resulting writings are attempts to, in a fairly objective manner, describe each recording to the reader. This attempt is, of course, certain to fail, what is a beautiful casacade to me may be noise to you, but it is often when we attempt to do what we cannot that we achieve something we may find of value, if not for others than at least for ourselves. Personal note (if I may be allowed): I make no claim for the value of these reviews, which are my opinion and, unlike some other writers in these pages, I do not view my opinions or tastes as facts. However, the reviews do represent the opinions of one who has put a good deal of thought and time into his reactions to Mr. Fripp's project. (A more subjective reaction can be seen in my "gig" reviews of the recent Milwaukee and Chicago performances.) For me, Soundscapes (which did not save my life) are among the most interesting things being done in music today, and are a high point in Mr. Fripp's career, but they are clearly not for everyone and I cannot promise you will have the same reaction (standard disclaimer). Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:25:00 -0000 From: "Brian Thomson, London UK" Subject: PROJEkcT 2 in London / Synergetics OK: in the next few days I'm going to go and book tables at the Jazz Cafe for PROJEkcT 2 on 15 / 16 April. If anybody would like to join an Elephant Table on the upper floor on either night, and you haven't written to me yet, let me know! I don't believe there's any extra charge for a seat as such, so no absolute obligation to turn up, but there is a minimum charge on food - at least UKP10, probably more. I'll let those involved know the exact details when I get them. I need to know how many people, on each night, are interested. Cheers, Brian Thomson, London UK bnt at ibm dot net 'The music of John Cage is preoccupied with the silent intervals; his growing audience constitutes the dawning of the transition of all humanity into synchronization with the metaphysical rather than the physical. The decibel amplification of youth's "rock" music has switched its physical beat into the old silent intervals and is inducing metaphysical preoccupation in its listeners. ' - "Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking" by R. Buckminster Fuller (http://www.servtech.com/public/rwgray/synergetics/synergetics.html) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 13:53:00 -0500 From: "dumela" Subject: ratiocination >From: KenLac at aol dot com >I knew it was too good to be original. As the saying goes, "Great minds >think alike... and our's do too." A weak quote methinks. I much prefer "great minds think," but the grain is small in that I don't posses one. So to what degree are male ETers single? I suppose any demographic questions on a list are rather rather (uh what is that French term for contrary?), heck I would misspell it anyhow. tj ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:21:53 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: "Red" blues and Palmer(-James) Two bits of two cents: First, it seems to me that with a bit of (admittedly generous) chord substitutions, "Red" is a kind of warped blues. If you take the "standard" 12-bar blues (whatever that may be) you get, in the key of E: E E E E A A E E B A E E So in the second line one departs to a second chord, coming back to the tonic after two bars. In the third line we go to a third chord, back to the second, and back to the tonic again. In the second and third "chorus" of "Red" we see the following chord pattern (Fripp's guitar line is merely sequenced over the bass progression): E E E E F# F# E E Bb Bb E E Bb Bb E E (the B-flat measures are in some kind of 7/8) We can see that the last line is repeated, but otherwise this conforms remarkably with a 12-bar blues that happens to have F# substituted for A (a "II" for a "IV") and Bb (a "flat V") substituted for the "V" B. Whether or not Mr. Fripp would think of this as a blues, however, is anyone's guess (I'm not betting he would). But doesn't it make the title a delightfully sardonic pun? (Isn't red a complementary color of blue?) By the way, 12-bar structures with repeated phrases are not that uncommon in pop music--for example, U2's "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" (the only time I'll mention *that* group on this list, I promise). As for Richard Palmer-James and why he left Supertramp, my 1977 Harmony Illustrated Encyclopedia of Rock tells me that he stuck around for their second album _Indelibly Stamped_ (by which time their first drummer had a nervous breakdown and they had to audition 200 others before finding a replacement!), but the band then broke apart after a disasterous Norwegian tour. Sounds like he wasn't one to throw in the towel so early. Kevin Holm-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 15:38:23 -0500 From: Christopher Carl Heckman Subject: Exiles / R.A.Wilson Included at the end of this e-mail are the chords I've worked out for "Exiles". The middle section is a bit iffy, but in any case, if anyone wants to add to or modify what I've done, they are of course welcome. I was reading Robert Anton Wilson's _Masks of the Illuminati_ and realized that the rhythm of the frequently-reappearing poem "The Devil's Masquerade" fits the melody line of "In The Court of the Crimson King". Wherever I've looked, the poem is credited to Wilson, so it seems unlikely that Fripp/Sinfield heard it and "stole" the rhythm, since the book was published in the mid 70s. It's got to be one of those synchronicities, but every now and then I wonder ... (I asked a similar question to the Webmaster at the Wilson Webpage, and I couldn't get a decent answer there, either.) -- Christopher Heckman, checkman at math dot gatech dot edu Internet: http://www.math.gatech.edu/~checkman "There is no surer sign of all-round success than [the] ability to put the whole of one's powers at the service of any type of task." -- Aleister Crowley *----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exiles Written by Cross, Fripp, Palmer-Jones. Tabbed by checkman at math dot gatech dot edu Intro: lots of weird noises, (some neighing?), then a mellotron starts playing the following line: G-------------------------- D-------------------------- A-----------7-------------- E--0--5--7-----0--5--7--0-- then, when the acoustic guitar enters, there are the chords (note that the last Am(sus2) is a quick alternation between Am and Asus2): Am Em Am Em Am Em Am Em Bm Am(sus2) Am Em Am Em Now ... in this faraway land, strange ... that the palms of my hands Bm Am(sus2) Em Should be damp with expectancy Introduction all over again, a bit shorter this time Am Em Am Spring ... and the air's turning mild, city lights ... Em Bm Am(sus2) And the glimpse of a child of the alleyway infantry Am Em Am Em Friends ... do they know what I mean, rain ... and the gathering green Bm Am(sus2) Of an afternoon out-of-town Interlude, slower tempo: Em Am But Lord, I had to go, my trail was laid too slow behind me Em Am To face the call of fame, or make a drunkard's name for me Em Am But now this bitter life has brought a different understanding Em Am And from these endless days shall come a broader sympathy Em Am And though I count the hours, to be alone's no injury ... Bm Am Em Am Em My home ... was a place near the sand, cliffs ... and a military band Bm Am(sus2) Blew and air of normality. Now, repeat the verse progression (Am Em Am Em Bm Am(sus2)) twice, whereupon the electric guitar enters with a solo that sounds tonal; the verse is repeated twice more. Then the coda follows the Am Em Am Em Am Am(sus2)(sus4?) pattern. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 16:58:44 -0500 From: marc_i_roemer_at_dsd at ccMail dot Census dot GOV Subject: different ax, same grinding wheel Since the "women and KC" thread may be dying a slow yet predictably temporary death, may I suggest a more compelling distinction between listeners: introverts and extroverts (introverts being those who require little external stimulation to be energize themselves and whose focus is primarily inward, extroverts being those who require a lot of stimulation and focus their attention primarily outward). I get the impression that introverts are overrepresented among Fripp- and KC- listeners, relative to the general population. I've really been surprised at the number of audients at the Soundscapes shows who arrive alone (maybe I should've taken a poll when I had the chance!), and most enthusiasts I've met seem to be the introverted type. Fripp's description of us as holed up in our bedrooms with the headphones on also fits. Anyway, I also get the impression that the introverts have a sense of where the music comes from, and what it points to, that extroverts seem to lack. Robert has assessed himself an introvert, and I wonder if extroverts in the audience really hear the same thing as us. They certainly appreciate the skill of the musician and the aesthetics of the music, but it doesn't seem they relate to it as the voice of a kindred soul like introverts seem to. Should we keep going boys against girls, or are there opinions on this? Is anyone out there psychologically-minded? Marc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 98 22:22:36 +0000 From: gomez Subject: housewives against Crimson Just an amusing reality I thought I'd post. My wife suggested to me today in all seriousness that I should try to give up Robert Fripp for Lent. She was, of course, convinced that I could not do it because, as she stated, I 'had no will...' how can one reply to that? Jim Gomez, London p.s. is Projekt Two going to play two nightsat the Jazz Cafe in London, or just one? Is this confirmed yet? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 23:08:06 -0500 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Frippin Funk! in ET 470 Mike Tanigawa mentioned: >Now here's a question I have. I seem to remember an early 1974 article >in Circus or some similar magazine (long before they sold out and went >heavy metal). John Wetton states, "I play very hard and break a lot of >strings" and mentions a "flicking technique that seems to come >naturally". > >Does anyone know what this technique could be? For years I have always >supposed that it was the Larry Graham style of playing that had so many >proponents in the disco era. Indeed some of the bass playing on the >live KC from 1973-74 does sound similar. Mike I was listening to some Parliment Funkadelic the other night and I was suprised to see how much it reminded me of Percy Jones (Brand-X). There is something to be said about the sound of a "Funky Bass". I wonder whom Bootsy would consider his influences? Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 23:49:02 -0500 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Is King Crimson Still A Band? in ET 470 Jon Wondered The Following: >The subject says it all really but seriously are they ever going to >decide what they are going to do for their next album it's been almost 4 >years or something since a studio album's release (ThraX). I know they >are going to reinvent themselves musically or something but jesus christ >this has been awhile I mean in the 70s and early 80s they were pumping >out albums like Catholics have babies ;) Just a monty python reference >no offense intended. Anyone have any thoughts on this? >Jon Well since 1994 we have had: VROOM - EP THRAK - Full Lenght Studio CD. B'BOOM - 2CD Live Set THRaKaTTaCK - Dangerous Live Improv Supposedly there is another live CD from 1995 ready for release. Plus Space Grooves from Projekct Two. What more can a Crimson fan ask for? Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 22:59:20 -0500 From: leslabb at ptd dot net Subject: Projekct Two - Possible Meaning Maybe this was mentioned in ET and I missed it but I was thinking about the name PROJEKCT TWO, and why the K. It did not take me long to realize that the K was before the C, KC :) Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 14:29:59 PST From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: Sinfield and "Still" Dear ET, Just a brief contribution to the thread on Pete Sinfield's 1973 recording, "Still." I haven't owned the vinyl in years, but I recall liking the album pretty well. As I recall, Greg Lake contributed some vocals to the title song and Mel Collins and Ian McDonald contributed horns to the final song, "The Night People," which was reminiscent of "Pictures of a City." "The Song of the Seagoat," the opening track, had a melody taken from a guitar concerto in D minor by Vivaldi. I haven't heard "Stillusion"; how does it differ from the original album? Is Sinfield still writing lyrics? Who's recording his songs these days? Best, Doug ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 00:28:18 -0000 From: "Peter Ward" Subject: The Crimson experience, Giles the drummer, Ravel's Bolero Hello ET, In ET 470, Darren Frank vouchsafed: >> In ET #468, Cedric says: >> *People often ask me why I love this band so much. I tell them that >>mainly, it's because they don't pander to me. That is, they don't make the >>music easier, so that I may understand it faster. I have to earn it. I love >>that. And they seldom repeat themselves. What are some of your reasons? > > I totally agree....KC has never been an easy listen, but if you're > willing > to give it a few (dozen) listens, it'll definitely grow on you For me, this has been true for _every_ King Crimson album, most especially the first and Lizard, which I really struggled with initially. After Larks' Tongues I got used to this, and I think I would now find it strange if I played a new Crimson album and immediately liked it as much as the others. That always comes after several plays. > Anyone want to back me up that Thrak could be the best KC album ever? > I'm sure this could be a very annoying thread. I'd have to vote for Lizard. Well, I was writing this anyway.... Mind you Thrak's still isn't over its probationary period yet, give it another ten years or so . > in ET 470 Mickael Vedrine had this to say: > In ET 468, Cedric Hendrix wrote > >> Mr. Fripp (I feel I owe him that) may not like this statement, but >> I don't think King Crimson was really King Crimson until Bill Bruford >> took his place on the drum riser. Is there another drummer out there that >> could handle the gig? I can't think of one. > > Sorry to start my ET contributions with a contradiction, but I can think of > at list one drummer who could "handle the gig" : didn't you hear Michael > Giles' work on ITCOTCK and Epitaph? I agree with this and the rest of your comments about Michael Giles (I get the bonus of starting with agreement). Don't forget McDonald and Giles. It took me a while to realise that the opening section of "Tomorrow's People - The Children of Today" is a drum solo! By the way, does anyone know if this album is available on CD? On another tack, here has been a lot of talk about Holst's Mars, which reminded me about another classical piece which I believe has influenced some of Crimson's music, and that is Ravel's Bolero. This is a marvellous twist on theme and development which Crimson seems to appreciate as Larks' Tongues part 2 is built in much the same manner, to my ear, while different enough not to sound derivative. See also: Red, The Talking Drum (but not, oddly enough, Bolero - The Peacock's Tale, which shares only the rhythm). I believe Ravel once said about the Bolero, "I have written only one masterpiece, unfortunately it contains no music". Masterpiece? Yes. Contains no music? Nonsense. NP: Ravel's Bolero! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:38:32 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Richard Palmer-James >Does anyone know why Palmer-James left Supertramp? IIRC, about the time of Indelibly Stamped Supertramp left Wales to bas themselves elsewhere (in the states, I think). It could have been that RPJ was unwilling to relocate. James ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 21:14:36 -0800 From: "Brian T. Perkins" Subject: Problems with Audio Hello all, I purchased the remake of the video "3 of a Perfect Pair-Live in Japan" from PossProd and I discovered a series of audio dropouts in the right channel all through the tape. Was this a problem with the source tape or do I have grounds for getting a new copy? Has anyone else had this problem? Any response would be great, thanks!! Brian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:08:45 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Roxy >From: Jim Bauer > >Another thing... to continue the Roxy Music thread I started, I don't see >Siren as "most hated." To me, it'll always be Country Life, though The >Thrill of it All ranks as one of Ferry's best. It's simply that the rest >of the material sucks. Do we own the same Country Life? "Out of the Blue"? "Casanova"? "Prairie Rose"? Great! I'd rank Country Life in the top three Roxy albums, myself. In any case: Country Life, worse than Flesh & Blood or Manifesto? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 11:40:44 +0000 From: kate dot d at virgin dot net Subject: One More Thread Nightmare... Greetings Fellow Eters, I read with interest ET 471 and was puzzled but delighted to read that the soon to be released Absent Lovers album is to be a double cd. I'm wondering whether this release will include tracks not included on the original bootleg (if so, this decision is brilliant, as it pretty well guarantees that anyone who already has the boot, will buy the official release) if the track listing is exactly the same as the boot, is it like TNW where it's just been dragged out a bit for the whizz bang whoopdy doo computer stuff on disc two? either way, i'll be purchasing the official release but still cherish my bootleg. I'd also like to remind my fellow crimheads that bbc2 is currently replaying the "old grey whistle test" on saturday mornings, i can't recomend it enough...as someone who has always sneered at genesis, i must admit i was impressed with their early 70's performance on last weeks episode, i actually liked it and can now see what the fuss is about. (they also played john martyn doing "i'd rather be the devil" solo, which nearly made me cry) this show is superb, i only saw it as a small child in the 70's and have wanted to see it again ever since. I'd also like to agree with the chap who was critical of sanjay's fawning post a few issues ago, as much as i love frisell et al, it's a far cry from crimson in any sense. I'd like to add that ET should be "for" whatever interests the WHOLE, which obviously is impossible, but it should NOT be an outlet for cd distributors JUNK MAIL, if ET now has a classified section, which it seemed like in #471, may i assume that i can submit all items i have for sale? Regarding the 10+ list...god, it's huge, nearly 600 artists on it so far with nearly 60 contributors, we'd like more though, so anyone who wishes to do so, do. It's become not so much 10+ but "who do you love?" so even if you have one album, but ya reeeeaaallllyy like it send us your choice. that's it. Toby accept my usual apologies etc. ashley hazelwood. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 14:03:32 +0100 From: tpoisson at atelier dot fr (BQUEDIRECTE Poisson) Subject: Belew and NIN Last week Ryan wrote: >but some just have horrible taste. I >would never not like a band because he played with some terrible people >(ala Belew with NIN and worse Pat M with MR.MR.) but I have to admit I >think differently about them. Personnaly, I find the idea of our dear sweet Mr Belew playing with ugly and noisy NIN rather exciting, and dare ask for more (Fripp did indeed have a project with Ministry drummer Bill Rieflin, didn't he ?) Cheers Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:51:03 -0500 From: Paul Adams Subject: Re: Fripp & the Blues I now recall Fripp's response to a question about the blues during an appearance on the 2nd Frippertronics tour (in Guelph, Ontario I think it was) and he made a joke about the cliched lyrics like "my domestic partner has absconded with my wages and taken up with the butcher". "What happens if you play blues music backwards? Your wife returns to you, your dog comes back to life, and you get out of prison .... " Something of interest to Eno/Fripp appreciators is a new cover of "St Elmos Fire" (which featured a great solo by Fripp) by Stereolab and Ui, under the name Uilab. The single Fires features 4 versions and a cover of a Sun Ra tune. They don't reproduce Fripp's solo but the versions are very good contemporary feel, with the first having a nice Philip Glass' Northstar-styled vocal part from Stereolab's singer. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:47:34 -0500 From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Subject: TL & "Selling Your Music" Ryan said.... Maybe I'm young and can afford to have high ideals, but I would never accept money to add my bass lines to a crappy band. Granted, I'm not a professional bassist, but my music means too much to me to sell it. High ideals indeed. The fact is that many acomplished, pro musicians have a hard time making ends meet, so they certainly welcome the chance to pay bills using their skills. Let's face it: if you've spent hours each day for 20 years studying and practicing, and you are now faced with working in a McDonalds or playing an uninteresting commercial gig, which would you choose? At least playing the junk you can keep up your skills for when you are offered something of actual substance. In Tony levin's case I would say he doesn't even fit into the category you mentioned. Every time i have ever heard him play, he's playing something that is clearly "Tony Levin": you can tell he's playing just what he wants, so what's wrong if he makes a coupla' bucks in the process? Hell, he effectively writes a lot of the songs he's on, simply by virtue of the power of his playing (frankly, a lot of the Peter Gabriel tunes he's "on" are really just Levin's playing with keyboards added). One thing i am finding as i age, is that life rarely boils down to a series of clear, unambiguous "ideals". In the end, it's an engineering decision, full of compromises. This is why i applaud people like Fripp, who have stared some of these realities in the face and did not become paralyzed by what they saw. Let's face it--it's easy to live according to your ideals if you never really do anything, and if you do make a real-world decision (eg, re-releasing your music), you can be sure that someone's "ideals" will be offended! I guess the hard part is keeping your musical vision alive in the face of these realities. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 19:01:51 +0100 From: hecker Subject: Screaming REALITY >Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:15:29 -0600 >From: Wade_L_Viland/Systems/TFT at thin-film dot com >Subject: Regarding women and Fripp/Crimson... > >Women do tend to fanticise about a perfect world, and a perfect life >brimming with soft passion. Not necessarily a bad dream but not very >realistic. Fripp screams 'REALITY' in the listeners face (i.e. Exposure) >which at least temporarily extinguishes their eternal dream. 70's and 80's >King Crimson is great dance music. DON'T BE SO DAMN >UPTIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to say I strongly agree with this statement. While I would not like to enter discussion on whether it is in fact a suitable argument about the issue that gave rise to it (RE: women and Fripp/Crimson), I would rather like to elaborate the same statement more towards the musical side. We all know (and it has often been discussed in ET) that Fripp shows a preference for the Tritone interval (i.e., the interval consisting of three major seconds, see discussions about the "devilish element" in Crimson music, the medieval =84Diabolus in Musica", and so on). And this may substantiate a case where Fripp actually does scream =84REALITY" in the listener's face. Why is this so? - My impression is that Fripp uses the Tritone interval not so much in the sense of an accidental sharpening or climactic intensifying (although this IS sometimes the case), but more as an integral element within the overall structure of sound. And this is significant because it keeps pieces based on such sound from eventually finding a tonal dissolution into one simple minor or major chord. Now, it seems to me that unmodified major and minor chords, i.e., the stuff that all tonal music basically relies on, assume different significance throughout historical times. While a simple cadence I - IV - V - I still was able to have an enormous impact on the listener at Beethoven=92s and Schubert's times, Maybe one could even say a moral or philosophical impact, it very much ceased to do so in more modern music (see Wagner or, later, Mahler), until the tonal system was completely abandoned by some people like Schonberg and others around the turn of the century. Dissonance and undissolved (in the sense of classical cadenca) sounds received much greater significance. Today's industrially manufactured Pop and entertainment music, however, returns to (or maybe never stopped) making extensive use of very simple Major/Minor cadencas and chords, obviously in an attempt to make music more amenable to commercial use and to make for all-time easy listening in support of messages completely unrelated to music at all. In contrast, in pieces based on (or heavily influenced by) the Tritone interval, tonality in the Major/Minor sense is "pending". If, for example, you do not use the F sharp - C interval for dissolving it into a G major chord (or g minor, for that sake), but let it influence the harmonic grounding without ever reaching G major at all, you have a chance to escape the same hopelessly overused harmonic tendencies that are presently called for in most commercial pieces that have to sell. By doing so, you may place yourself on the side of reality simply by avoiding the illusions of false sentimentalism and romanticism. And it was, after all, Alban Berg, who, quite some decades earlier in this century, used the unaltered, unsharpened, "pure", nonchromatic C major chord in exactly one place within his "Lulu" opera. Commenting on it, he said that this sound might symbolize the decadence and the rotten state of the monetary world. Now, whereas Berg seemed to scream "REALITY" by making ironic use of a tension-free major chord, Fripp appears to make a further step against tonal dependency by escaping the dissolution forces that used to be inherent to the Tritone interval. Thus he has sort of "redefined" its meaning, as he has also redefined some aspects of guitar tuning. Ulrich von Hecker Haeselerstr. 14 c D-14050 Berlin GERMANY fone: +49 +30 301 4913 Email: hecker at rz dot uni-potsdam dot de hecker at zedat dot fu-berlin dot de fax: +49 +331 977 2795 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 14:28:53 -0500 From: John Barnas Subject: One more P2/Nashville note: STEREO Perfectly Pleasant Kind Crimfolk, - It has been two weeks since the PROJEkCT 2 show in Nashville. I'm slowly becoming able to get back to "normal" life. Thanks for all the private E-mail from those who also were thrilled at that performance. -Just so I'm not mistaken, I want to assure everyone that I wasn't trying to shake RF's hand, or after any kind of response from him. It was just that suddenly I was face to face with the man. And although I am supposed to be responsible for my reaction(s), I kind of turned into a dumb numb jellyfish and my hand went out. That's why I felt silly. I really wouldn't care if KC musicians performed behind a curtain. Personally I don't need to see the musicians' fingers moving or their facial expressions, etc. The sounds coming out of the speakers is what really matters! And so, finally, here is the reason for my post: (Probably (thanks, toby) my last memory post on that show) - I just recalled how excellent the sound system quality was. The musicians evidently have built in outputs to matter where STEREO is concerned. The stereo effect of P2 live, or sounds swishing from left to right and everywhere in between, was astounding! So, if you are going to a gen. admission show where there are no seats, you may want to get in the middle, between the speakers, to experience this enhancement. Get ready! Your Crimpal forever, John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 15:57:02 -0500 (EST) From: Jonathan F Benfield Subject: tony and eddie fellow ocd'ers, I swear to god this really happened (not part of the "dream" thread) ... I was watching tv about 1986...some awards show....Eddie Van Halen comes onstage and starts playing the intro from "hot for teacher"...just at the climax of the riff, a 6- foot-tall bald-man playing a fender bass lunges out of nowhere to complete the blistering head...guess who? papa bear I know I was not seeing things...please someone help me confirm this...someone has got to have a copy somewhere....like ELP's rendition of "Miami vs San Diego" to the tune iof "touch and Go"...its everywhere on the net. thanks, jb ps hey all you Tony bashers...leave the guy alone. until you can do what he does. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:10:03 -0600 From: Wade_L_Viland/Systems/TFT at thin-film dot com Subject: Dumb Question of the Day Did Tony Levin spend some time playing with Steve Morris and "The Dixie Dreggs"? I seem to remember his name with Peter Gabriel too.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:54:28 GMT From: Mickael Vedrine Subject: Muir, Giles, Tippett Hi ETers, I just had a look at the artist shop catalog and found surprising recordings by (ex-)members of KC : Dean, Dunmall, Levin, Rogers, Rudd, Tippett/Bladik Giles, Muir, Cunningham/Ghost Dance Hopper , Dean, Tippett, Gallivan/ Cruel But Fair Does anyone know something about these recordings? Replies by private e-mail, please! Mickael Vedrine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 08:06:44 -0600 From: jessica Subject: Support for Ten Seconds Dear ETers, Let's cut to the chase. It's been about two years since that most powerful of DGM bands, Ten Seconds, released an album. Their debut was a truly stunning affair! From the crushing power of "No Way To Paradise" to the sinister beauty of "The Last Three Minutes,2" it is a consistantly first-rate production. They could also be both "symphonic" as in "Worlds Beyond Worlds" or even catchy in the least commercial way on "Can't Hold Back The Dawn". Bottom line, let's see if ET can muster support for what I consider to be, besides KC, the premier group on DGM. It would be a true shame if Ten Seconds' debut album was also its last. Thanks so much, Blaine D. Arnold ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:12:11 EST From: Nel3 Subject: DON'T DISS SEELY! Doug Liles snide comments about the snide remark made by Seely's bass player (2/23 post to ET) shouldn't stop anyone from checking out this excellent band. I'd also recommend looking into two other John McIntyre-produced bands Tortoise and The Sea and Cake (both of whom JM plays drums for). The Sea and Cake's album The Fawn has become a favorite of mine. Approach these groups gently - they're obviously NOT as "regal" as KC - but worh appreciating for their subtle "indie" pleasures.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:39:32 EST From: Ctao Subject: Another Blues Reference, and Wetton's Technique, TL "Whoring"? The 80's band used a classic I-IV-V blues progression as the basis for the verse section of the much mailigned "Three Of A Perfect Pair". Artfully obscured, perhaps, but harmony's harmony. Regarding Wetton's playing style, I specifically remember an interview from the early 80's (Guitar Player, perhaps?) in which the interviewer asked himif he slapped and popped a la Larry Graham. To paraphrase, he said he didn't, and preferred to leave that technique to people who were better at it. In responding to what I assume was a tongue in cheek reference to Tony as a "bass whore", Ryan S. stated that "agreeing to play on just anybody's album is really giving away your artistic integrity". Pu-leez. How about the fact that survival necessitates certain sessions for a player like Tony, freeing him up for non-lucrative gigs like his solo stuff, B.L.U.E., and even (gasp!) K.C. And which sessions is Ryan referring to? Gabriel? Torn? Armatrading? The Roches? Andy Summers? Maybe Paul Simon, Yes, and post-Waters Pink Floyd, but one could certainly do worse. It's pretty clear his artistic integrity is holding up well, despite the necessary evils of commerce... Now Bruford, THERE'S a whore (kidding, folks)... Tx, C Dowling Let's abolish first names for a gender neutral ET! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:54:29 -0000 From: "Nick Smith" Subject: Derek Bailey So Darren Franck found the Bailey/Metheny "Sign Of 4" a bit difficult to swallow? I suggest he goes to great lengths to avoid the recently released ( hats off to Organ Of Corti) CD reissue of the old Incus LP "Selections From Live Performances At Veritys Place", with Bailey in the saddle with Dutch drummer and madman Han Bennink. Recorded in glorious lo-fi in 1972 and once among Bill Bruford's Top 10 albums, surely two men have never made so much noise. He probably wouldn't therefore give houseroom to the Incus CD reissue of "Dart Drug" with Bailey in duet with former Crimson percussionist Jamie Muir recorded some eleven years later. Two extraordinary and different examples of living, breathing improvisation at it's best, against which "THRaTTaK" seems rather limp and inconsequential. Nick Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 19:20:26 EST From: DanKirkd Subject: USA In ET 469 SMcmil6360 wrote: >I also noticed what may be a discrepancy in the FAQ that says Where was USA >recorded? In the Eric Tamm book, page 74, he states that the single song >Asbury Park was recorded in Asbury Park, and that the rest of the LP was >recorded at Providence. This is the opposite of what is said in your FAQ. >Here's the complete quote from page 74: "The live album USA, released >around April 1975, was recorded toward the end of this final U.S. tour: the >song "Asbury Park" at the Asbury Park (New Jersey) Casino on June 28, and >the rest two days later at the Palace Theater in Providence, Rhode Island." >Thought you'd want to know... Thanks for letting us know. This has been an issue of great debate, but I think we are better off believing David Singleton on this matter than Eric Tamm, so what is in the FAQ will stand: "According to David Singleton, USA was recorded at Asbury Park, except for Schizoid Man, which was recorded at Providence." I'll trust Toby to cut short any new debate on this that may ensue. [ Try and stop me! -- Toby ] Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:55:22 -0500 From: Kevin Rowan Subject: What's better, what's best, who cares In response to the gentleman who suggested (in et 671) what the best/ worst KC album is I ask why does there have to be one or another? KC has always defied the traditional rock and roll definitions that say the Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin or even someone a little more art rockish like Genesis (espesially after Gabriel left) conjure up. Some say Islands is pretty bad but you're not going to find a more bluesy KC song than Ladies of the Road. And Song of the Gulls is pretty damn nice too. And as far as Roxy Music goes, my screen almost melted when I read Country Life was, in this man's opinion, their worst album. Excuse me?! Roxy's first five albums are all gems, especially Country Life. How can you dismiss the power of Out of the Blue or All I Want is You? Listen to the album again, please, and this time listen to the words. And last, anyone interested in getting a group together for the April 15 show of Bruford and Levin at the Birchmere? I'm away from the 11th to the 24th of this month but will respond to those who express interest when I get back. Kevin Rowan Washington, DC krowan at aibs dot org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:50:08 +1200 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Fripp vocal Here's something I haven't seen mentioned here before... on Toyah's 1988 album "Prostitute", there is a weird little track called "Hello", which revolves around a doctor-patient fantasy. Guess whose delightful Dorset tones can be heard playing the part of the doctor? James ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:09:28 +0200 From: "Jari Schroderus" Subject: King Crimson & Jethro Tull Hi there! I'm a big fan of both Jethro Tull and King Crimson and I've found a couple of connections between the two. First there's Eddie Jobson. He played violin and keyboards in Jethro Tull in 1980 on the "A" tour. This connection I've known for a while, but the other one I noticed justa a couple of days ago. I listened to Tull guitarist Martin Barre's first solo album A Trick of Memory. I went through the lists of people who played on that album and I foun one Mel Collins playin saxophone on several (six, if I my memory serves me well) tracks. The album is propably not a must for Crimson fans but I thought it's worth a mention. THRaK on, friends! Jari Schroderus ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #472 ********************************