Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #468 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 468 Sunday, 1 March 1998 Today's Topics: NEWS: Changes at ET NEWS: Fripp, Lake and Giles on McDonald's solo album? NEWS: ProjeKt 2 date NEWS: PROJEkCT 2 coming to Philly NEWS: Philadelphia NEWS: ET KC tribute reminder Nashville paper proves "to each his own". Pat Metheny/Robert Fripp Connection Rock & Roll Hall of Fame re: nightwatch running time The Big Six and Gary Lucas New Island edition Bass equipment in old King Crimson Women and KC Ophelia's Shadow Crimson jukebox Re: Peter Sinfield what e-talk is NOT for Memories of ProjeKct 2 in Nashville Re: Two basses before KC Calling All Music Writers Re: Recommending Stanely Jordan, Metheny... Just Crimwomen Stereotyping ET'ers Double-bass/Night Watch/Metheny/VROOOM crimson & juggling B.L.U.E. Re: Has anyone heard Adrian's new album? ET #467 - Peter Sinfield "Still" Skipping Crimson Frippocrite? Peter Sinfield / Progressive Rock Re: Elephant Talk Digest #467 Questions of a First-Timer progressive Responses to posts The Nightwatch: In praise of "LTiA, Part Two" ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWEB: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 1 March 1998 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: NEWS: Changes at ET Thank you to everyone who has so far replied with constructive criticisms of ET. There are some good ideas for making ET a better resource for everyone -- more on this in a later issue. I'll be making some changes as and when time permits. As for now, I'm going to loosely divide posts into the categories of "news" (tour dates, releases, rumours, or any other things that seem to merit prominence) and "comment" (Fripp's playing does/does not suck, etc). All the "news" posts will appear together at the start of each edition of ET, and will have "NEWS:" at the start of their subject line. So, it would be a help if posters could keep posts in one of the two categories, even if this means making a double post. I will endeavour to add the "NEWS:" tag, but it would be extra-helpful if posters could do this already. You know, I'm a kinda lazy guy... Anyway, let's see how it goes. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:19:28 +0100 From: Marco Passarello Subject: NEWS: Fripp, Lake and Giles on McDonald's solo album? Interesting news surfaced from Paperlate, the Genesis' Mailing List. It seems that Ian McDonald is working to his first solo album, and that the other musicians should be Robert Fripp, Greg Lake and Mike Giles, plus Steve Hackett and John Wetton! These informations should be on the japanese liner notes of the "Steve Hackett Live in Japan" video. Of course I got no means to verify this, but seems believable. This could be the reunion that we all spoke about when "Epitaph" came out! Bye! Marco Passarello ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:40:21 -0500 From: Rich Williams Subject: NEWS: ProjeKt 2 date Greetings, My local trendy nite-club; Toad's Place, New Haven Ct, will be hosting mssrs Frip,Gunn & Belew on May 4th. It will be sixteen years since the Discipline-era crimson last played at Toads. If anyone needs info on how to get there by car, train or plane, you can e-mail me privatly. And if anyone has the rest of the dates for this tour, please post them. Rich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 22:31:00 PST From: Matt Walsh Subject: NEWS: PROJEkCT 2 coming to Philly I'm not sure if this was sent out already, but I thought I'd let everyone know in case it hasn't. PROJEkCT 2 will be playing in Philadelphia on May 3rd at the Ballroom At The Bellevue. Show starts at 8pm and will just be Belew, Fripp, and Gunn (I guess Levin and Bruford will be touring with Upper Extremities?) Tickets go on sale tommorrow (Feb 27th) WOOHOO!!!!! Matt Walsh mattw at smginc dot com mattmonkw at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 98 12:47:58 EST From: c62op27 at ibx dot com (Victor Fiorillo) Subject: NEWS: Philadelphia Projeckt II: Belew, Fripp & Gunn will play the new Bellevue Hotel concert room on May 3rd. BLUE (Bruford Levin Upper Extremeties) will play the TLA on April 16th. Both shows in Philadelphia. Projeckt II is an all reserved seating show. BLUE is standing room only, general admission. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 22:51:00 PST From: Matt Walsh Subject: NEWS: ET KC tribute reminder Just a few reminders concerning the ET KC tribute... Artwork submissions are due by March 31st. I prefer to have them sent to me via bmp file e-mail attachment, or other picture file. If you are unable to send your submission through e-mail, please let me know. After March 31st, when we get everything set up, all submissions will be placed on the ET Web and voted upon by members of ET, the artwork with the most votes will be the album cover for the tribute. I've already gotten a few artwork submissions, and am anxiously awaiting the creative visuals of other ETers. Also, if you plan on attending the Philadelphia listening session where we will hack out the final tracks, please e-mail me ASAP. After trying to plan everything out, I realized that people might not be trusting of sending money to me... I'm trying to think of an alternative way of handling money, as I have never done anything like this before. I don't know who on ET would be considered trustworthy (other than Toby, and I'm sure he has plenty to do already!!!), so if anyone who has done stuff like this before can send me any alternative suggestions for handling money, and/or can even help set this up for me, it would be greatly appreciated. I have gotten numerous e-mails from people stating "why don't you have DGM... etc." Please realize that this project has absolutely nothing to do with DGM. Robert Fripp stated around a year ago that DGM would only review the final product for possible DGM release (or to be the main course of the next DGM Turkey Roast). While I think it would be great if DGM released the final product, I am not planning, and do not expect DGM to release this. This is a tribute by ETers, for ETers. I don't plan on it being any more than that. Sorry if I seem rude, people just seem to thow DGM's name around like the label has all the free time in the world, just thought I'd let remind everyone of the project's aim. I'm waiting on a few more e-mails from submitting members, after which I will send a questionairre to be posted on the ET Web. I will send an e-mail to the list when it is up and ready. Thanks, and any questions/suggestions/etc., let me know. Matt Walsh mattw at smginc dot ocm mattmonkw at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:08:46 -0600 From: Antarctica Media Subject: Nashville paper proves "to each his own". Apparently not everyone shared the enthusiasm toward Projeckt2 that we have seen here on ET. On 2/23/98, in the Nashville Tennessean newspaper, Rick de Yampert stated in his "Rick 'n' Roll" column: "Even Robert Fripp, a truly innovative guitarist who helped found art rock back in the 1970s, seemed oddly, disappointingly retro when his current band, PROJEkCT2, plodded through a set of jazz-rock fusion at The Cannery" John A. Trevethan Antarctica Media "Music, art, and creativity without restriction" http://www.telalink.net/~antarct ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:26:55 PST From: "Super Fan" Subject: Pat Metheny/Robert Fripp Connection The comment about Pat Metheny's "damn synth guitar" is somewhat ironic because both Pat and Robert use the same model - the Roland GR300 guitar synth/hex fuzz unit with the companion Roland GR303 guitar controller (a sort of Les-Paul body style electric guitar with the built-in electronics for controlling the synth). Which brings me to a recent Pat Metheny Group concert that I attended. There is one heavy piece off the _Imaginary Day_ album entitled "The Roots Of Coincidence", which in live form includes a lot of distorted guitar jamming not unlike "Thrak". The live rendition that I witnessed even had a section where bassist Steve Rodby boomed out long, menacing bowed bass rumbles a la Tony Levin on his electric upright bass. :) I agree with the comment that Pat has explored so many different musical spheres that you'd have to be extremely open-minded to like everything. His work has ranged from the radio-friendly jazz of the Pat Metheny Group (well, at least in the early days - much of Imaginary Day is more daring that their earlier albums), pop (as sideman with Bruce Hornsby, Joni Mitchell, and a few others), jazz standards (with Gary Thomas, Michael Brecker, and others), to free jazz (with Ornette Coleman, on the few experimental tracks the PMG always sneaks into every album, on solo albums), to free nonidiomatic improv (most notoriously with Derek Bailey, Gregg Bendian, and Paul Wertico on The Sign Of Four). Paolo ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:21:18 PST From: "Joseph Basile" Subject: Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Hi, Ho, There has been mention in resent weeks of RF and / or King Crimson in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in ET. Personally, I think I will never live to see this for numerous reasons. IMHO , I feel they should have been in on the first wave. MAIN REASON-Either GUITAR Magazine or GUITAR PLAYER had DAVID TORN as best experimental guitarist last year,Robert finished second in the readers poll . Robert was first a few years back when ADRIAN BELEW won for the fifth year and was now deemed into their HALL OF FAME . Now, I love TORN . And if your a reader of ET, you know I am a BELEW advocate from the get go ! If a guitar magazine is 30 years to late in having RF in their HALL of FAME, how can I expect a more less informed, more commercial, voter like The RR Hall Of Fame to have Fripp in ? I hope I am wrong .Most of us won't lose sleep over this one. Staying home with young Joey today ,I listen to a LCG tape that I bought at a Pittsburgh show in the late 80's. I remember being slightly disappointed because they didn't have it on CD. Many of the songs were played by the Crafties on THE NEW VISIONS t.v.program I wrote about last fall . The tape was a studio tape,Singelton may have engineered this,it was that good ! Others songs were released on later Crafty CDs'. Is this a jem or are there many of these out there ? At the same show I bought a tape interview titled;RF, HOW I BECAME A PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN. I know this one is a JEM. It is a late 80's radio interview at the Crafties mansion. Humorous ,touching, and informative ! ( A college station ?) THE SHOW ? IT was awesome ! Thus being only the second time seeing Fripp,,chills ! Being a high school baseball coach at the time, my brother-in- law and I arrived later than I wanted to because of a game. (Us Eter want that rabid fan early time !) We had middle seat ,which is great at the Syria Mosque.Well when Tom went to get me a beer,he spied two seats...front and center!! We were inches away ! Being a STEELER football fan, I like my beer,and had my share. You've been there. When you got to go you got to go ! In the middle of a favorite song;THE CORD THAT BINDS,I couldn't hold it any more, so I left for the can. Well guess who gave me a moody stare ! It was almost as bad as the one I got from Mrs. Cropp in third grade for cheating ! I thought I may have imagined this, being a paranoid and all . But my brother- in- law said he had to go, but didn't dare after my scowl . The whole show was magical ! When those Crafties pass those notes around like Crafties do, Tom's jaw bounced of the stage a few times, it was magic! Robert did talk to the audience and looked back at the nice crowd . He smiled,and" welcome "d us all . OK I was star struck. But this did make a fan of my brother-in- law ,Tom . Since then we have seen Crimson at The HORDE Concert, and last years soundscape in the Burg ! We loved those CHILLS ! Thanks for bearing through all this...it is good therapy for me . Warmly, Joe Basile By The Three Rivers 2/26/98 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:25:04 -0600 From: "Damon C Capehart" Subject: re: nightwatch running time Andrew Hathikhanavala wrote: >ok, nightwatch is incredible...we all know that. has anyone noticed that >most stores are selling it for around nineteen dollars? the running time >is somewhere around 82 minutes. the capacity for a single cd is somewhere >around 78 minutes? couldnt fripp have cut four minutes and saved us all a >few bucks? this would have fixed the problem of continuity mentioned in >someone else's post that i just read, and it would have been more practical >in manufacturing. Yes, but then they wouldn't have been able to fit the interactive portion of the 2nd CD anywhere. I know, they might have given up on that, but I really don't think it's a big deal either way. Whatever, Damon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:57:31 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: The Big Six and Gary Lucas > From: larry buchalter > who are the "big 6 recording business monopolies? > i know of CBS, POLYGRAM,WARNER,EMI, who am i missing please? BMG (Bertelsmann Music Group, German owners of the RCA catalog) and MCA/UNI, owned last time I check by the Seagram Family (though that may have changed recently). > From: ecerb at indra dot com (Elaine C. Erb) > > And lastly, a question about another guitar hero of mine - Gary Lucas. I > think he's put out one album I've seen since the 1992 release Gods and > Monsters but I haven't heard anything very recent. This features a killer > cover of Astronomy Domine as well as some interesting originals. Any one > else familiar with Lucas and know what he is up to now? Yup. Check out http://www.garylucas.com --- ridiculously complete and *very* up-to-date. He has a release coming soon on John Zorn's Tzadik label, as well as at least two new discs since the one you mention, "Bad Boys of the Arctic" and "Evangeline." Bonus question: How are the above two questions related? [Answer: Gary was an A&R man for Columbia in the '80s] Bonus question no. 2: How are the above related to King Crimson? [Answer: Gary Lucas -> Tim Berne -> Django Bates -> Bill Bruford -> KC Oh, but that only works if you accept a link from A&R signer (Lucas) to signee (Berne). Oh, wait, Lucas -> Captain Beefheart -> Frank Zappa -> Eddie Jobson -> John Wetton -> KC.] Stopping this now before I'm condemned to "Six Degrees of Bill Bruford" on RMB, Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:46:48 -0400 (GMT-0400) From: "Rafael E. Zamora G." Subject: New Island edition Hi, I have just known that there is a new edition of ISLANDS in the european market. It is the catalog number P-7867742 and is of date february 1998. It is possible to get it with CHEAP OR WHAT (an british on line store). I have no more information about it. It would be good to know about this edition when some people got it. Rafael Zamora ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:52:36 -0400 (GMT-0400) From: "Rafael E. Zamora G." Subject: Bass equipment in old King Crimson I would like to know about the Bass equipment used by the former members of Crimson: GREG LAKE, PETER GILES, GORDON HASKELL, BOZZ BURRELL and JOHN WETTON The basses that they used, their amps and their effects, in those former albumws because Crimson always had a gresat bass sound in all of them (apart of many another things) Thanks for your help [ Replies by private email to Rafael please -- Toby ] Rafael ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:03:49 CET From: "The Scop" Subject: Women and KC Just for the record: In a recent interview the (female) guitarist of the German band 'Final Virus' cited KC's Islands as one or her top 3 records. Cheers, Johannes nashorn at hotmail dot com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:06:35 -0500 (EST) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Ophelia's Shadow A few folks asked for details on Toyah's _Ophelia's Shadow_, which I mentioned in a recent post. I found the album at a used CD store (Planet Records) in Boston last year. It was released in 1991 on EG Records, number EGCD78. In the states it was distributed by Caroline Records. It also may be distributed by Virgin. The lineup is Toyah Wilcox, Tony Geballe, Trey Gunn, and Paul Beavis. The music, for the most part, is mellower and not as intense as the music on the Sunday All Over The World album. But it is very similar in style. So you have Toyah singing in much the same way she does on _Kneeling at the Shrine_, though at times in a more melodic, conventional way. Most of the songs were written by Geballe and Wilcox, or by them and Gunn and Beavis. Fripp co-wrote two tracks, but as far as I know does not play on the album. The first two tracks are relaxed (Gordon Haskell contributes some keyboard work to the first track), while the next two are more upbeat, and would not be out of place on the SAOTW album. The fifth track has a Peter Gabriel feel to it--it is quite good. That track and the next two would sound at home on the SAOTW album, too. After that, we get a track that begins with Toyah reciting from Shakespeare and winds up as a poppy tune in seven. The penultimate track reminds me of "Storm Angel" or "Transient Joy." The last song has a march-like feel to it--overall I don't care for it, even though it has a fancy & fast (and then slow) piano solo in it performed by Keith Tippett. There are 10 tracks altogether, and the total running time is 47.28. Anyone who really likes SAOTW would probably like this as well. Justin (p.s. to Margus: my private mail to you kept bouncing back.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:08:10 -0600 (CST) From: vince Subject: Crimson jukebox I like to buy cds for the jukebox at my local(Waterloo Brewing Co. in Austin). Well, I took the plunge and purchased "The Concise King Crimson", which should be in the jukebox in a week or so. For some reason, I feel nervous about this. I fear the bartenders might strangle me after listening to 21stCSM 100 times. vince ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:32:28 -0500 From: Gary Davis Subject: Re: Peter Sinfield At 07:42 AM 2/27/98 GMT, Rob Hults wrote: >Many years ago, 1976 I think, Peter Sinfield released a solo album The album was called "Still." It is available on Voiceprint with the new title, "Stillusion." Peter has rearranged the tracks and added a few more. You'll find it listed on my Voiceprint page in The Artist Shop at . Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com artshop at artist-shop dot com phone: 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:44:59 -0500 (EST) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: what e-talk is NOT for Elephant Talk is NOT the forum for promoting or selling your favorite artists to other readers. This is not to say that recommendations shouldn't be made, reviews written, or artists suggested. But there is a difference between making such a recommendation and doing the work of a record label's promotional team. Remember: Elephant Talk exists to serve OUR interests-- interests in the music, the musicians, the equipment, the performances, each other, our tastes, and so on. It should not be seen primarily as a platform to advance the interests of the musicians we happen to like. The importance of seeing ET in this light is made topical by the recent postings regarding the new Johnson/Metheny/ Frisell/Baron release, _The Sound of Summer Running_. Sanjay's initial post on this release (a demo at the time) was an incredibly exagerated, unrestrained and fawning endorsement comparing this album to 80's King Crimson. An adman hired by Polydor couldn't have written a better, more accurately-targeted advertisement. But the truth of the matter is--and this is not intended as a criticism of the album--_The Sound of Summer_ sounds nothing like any version of King Crimson, neither in style, tone, nor mood. I had the chance to hear this album, and the only similarity it has with 80's KC is that four good musicians are playing drums, bass, and 2 guitars (mostly acoustic, though). If I had to pigeonhole it in a genre, I'd call it sophisticated "light" jazz. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I like to hear about new music from other KC fans. But taking seriously the suggestions of E-talkers depends on us being able to trust each other. And we won't be able to trust each other if we are constantly suspicious that recommendations are being made first and foremost to expand an artists' or album's market share, and only derivatively, if at all, to enrich our musical lives. Thanks for reading. Justin Weinberg P.S. This post should not be construed as an attempt to (a) read Sanjay's mind, (b) criticize Metheny et al, nor (c) decry capitalism. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:44:52 -0500 From: John Barnas Subject: Memories of ProjeKct 2 in Nashville It's been a week since P2 at Nashville. Whew! I still am in pieces. Refelecting back, I thought I'd offer a few quick (yeah right) expressions. First of all- On the one musical piece with the words coming from Trey's guitar: That piece was "a moment". That "song" made me so overcome with emotion I started crying and laughing at the same time. I was crying, I guess, because it was something so beautiful and new and unique from ANYTHING I've EVER heard and/or felt. I was also crying because I thought this would be the one and only time I might ever hear that piece if it is not released on a P2 record, and I was crying because I know I probably can't make the S.F. performances. Anyways that piece was so awesome that words can't describe it. Something was birthed there and then. I do think it is interesting that Rob Murpree and others who tried to describe the event/song called the sound's from Trey's guitar (the spoken words following a bass-like line) "demonic", or similar. Demonic? I guess it's hard to describe that sound but I'd say simply that those words were "intense" or "from the cosmos" but Demonic? Mr.D never created anything, let alone such delicate beauty. That whole composition was as good or better than any of the greatest passionate moments I have heard from Crim. (me is a listener since 1976). I'm sorry I can't stop talking about it. Help me. Secondly, before the performance, on my way out the Cannery door for some fresh air I came face to face with Robert coming up the front steps to the entrance. Here it is: I was momentarily surprised and managed to babble "hello Robert" and instinctively offered my hand, as if to only communicate "thanks". He did a neat flip up and wave with a smile and zipped on in the door. Yes, he managed to "not shake" my hand but it was in no way rude. His hands are pretty precious so its cool. I still felt silly. Robert also stood in the crowd during the band before P2. People seemed to leave him alone. I do think Robert really tries to get in-tune with the energy of the scene. What a neat guy. One last memory. When P2 was performing- each piece went on at least ten minutes (or was it ten hours, or ten years, or ten seconds). At times the "heightened flow" of the jam would subside. They would be at a relative lull in the energy. Suddenly Robert would turn knobs, hit switches, then ZOOOOOOM, off they'd go again. Robert is the commander. I'll stop now. Love to Crimland. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:46:06 -0800 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: Two basses before KC Louis Courteau wrote: >Neal Patrick Brown got a load of answers in ET466 as two pioneers of the >double bass drum, but nobody could "really think of any music that would >have called for 2 basses before Crimson". I certainly can. How about Henry Threadgill's X75 experimental jazz ensemble from the 70's, which featured four bass players? The Tone Dogs featured two basses regularly in the 80's (usually overdubbed, though), and Caveman Hughscore often had two or three basses going at once. Eric D. Dixon http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6072/ "A first rate soup is better than a second rate painting." -- Abraham Maslow ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:12:37 GMT From: rtf_pjm at shsu dot edu Subject: Calling All Music Writers I am looking for experienced music writers for a project I will be starting this summer. If you are a SOLID writer please contact me OFF-LIST for details. I am interested in writers who specialize in one or more of the following genres: rock, pop, jazz, folk, country, r&b, lounge, classical, new age. Historical knowledge is a necessity!!! Thanks. - Paul ---------- Album of the Week: Beach Boys HOLLAND RIP: Carl Dean Wilson (1946-1998) ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:13:18 GMT From: rtf_pjm at shsu dot edu Subject: Re: Recommending Stanely Jordan, Metheny... >Anyway, that's my two cents. God help us if somebody now comes on >recommending Russ Freeman or Stanley Jordan ... this can get ugly fast! I have NO problem recommending Stanely Jorday. His STANDARDS VOLUME I disc is one of the best solo guitar works of the 80s. Having seen Jordan live several times, I have to say anyone who concentrates on the gimmick (two hand tapping technique) is missing the fact that he has some great ideas and is solid improvisor. Yeah, he's done some crap. But, he's also done some great stuff. The Jordan discs worth pursuing are: Magic Touch Standards Volume I Stolen Moments: Live @ The Blue Note Flying Home and Bolero are too commercially oriented, but both have their moments (his version of Stairway To Heaven w/ Larry Graham doing the slap bass is cool). Russ Freeman? Well calculated, commercial, banal, blah, blah, blah. Metheny? Always interesting. An experimenter. IMGAINARY DAY will get some reaction out of KC fans. Of course, so should AS FALLS WICHITA SO FALL WICHITA FALLS. A tremendous piece in '79 and still a great way to introduce progressive heads to Metheny. - Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:33:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Zornitsa Dimova Subject: Just Crimwomen Hello everybody, I don't know what is this nonsense about women not liking KC, and how did you jump to that conclusion - not everybody who listens to KC is subscribed to the newsletter, and even if she is, she might not write to it. It is funny to talk about 'all' women disliking loud and discordant music - I am a woman, and I liked 'Discipline' immensely; and I also liked 'THrak' a lot; and I do not at all think that KC are all that loud or discordant. Certainly a lot of their things are even rather melodic; play 'Matte Kudasai' or 'Formentera Lady', or most of the early stuff to your wives and see. And anyway, discordant music can be said to be quite feminine; I'd have you know that of all my KC-liking friends, only one is male. So, guys, be careful with big judgements. Yours, Zornitsa P.S. Do any of you listen to 'Gentle Giant'? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:35:33 -0500 From: Jeff Drobits Subject: Stereotyping ET'ers After lurking on ET for a couple of years, I felt compelled to comment on a statement from Sanjay Krishnaswamy. Sanjay wrote in ET#467: > On the other hand I'd be surprised to find most ETers really dig > Metheny -- I don't see most ELP and Yes fans seeing Metheny as their > kind of thing, generally. They might have an album or two, but, > well, it's just not Metheny's thing. Where on earth did the idea come from that ET'ers tastes are limited to rock groups that haven't put out anything worth listening to in over 20 years? Give us a little more credit, please. I have found that ETers are not a homogenous bunch at all, but have musical tastes that are all over the map. IMHO, the reason that KC remains vital today is that they shed the prog rock image long ago, and show no signs of slowing down. I've seen everything from Frisell to Funkadilic to Sonic Youth discussed in ET, and the musical diversity is one of the reasons I continue to subscribe. ET'ers really aren't that closed-minded, are we? And many thanks to Toby for making this possible. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:54:28 CST From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" Subject: Double-bass/Night Watch/Metheny/VROOOM I talked with my drums professor Wednesday morning, and Louie Bellson indeed was the 1st to use two bass drums at a time. Apparently, Louie was also a tap dancer, and would even use three basses sometimes, just literally tap dancing on the pedals. I'm going to find some of that stuff, because I can't imagine what it sounds like in a jazz setting (from the 40s!!). Anyway, my first taste of double bass drumming was Metallica...Lars Ulrich and Louie Bellson are probably somehwat divergent in style ;) when I made the comment about not being able to think of any bands that had music "heavy" enough to call for two bass drums, that's because I grew up with Metallica (oh, how the mighty have fallen) and Slayer and other speed metal bands...(and I was referring to two bass drums, not two bass players, like the guy who mentioned Mingues thought...sorry about that.) Just received VROOOM and Night Watch from DGM today....funny how the production on VROOOM is *so* clear and clean, but the music seems dead compared to THRAK. When I Stop Continue is a gem, of course, but the other tracks don't have the polyphony of their THRAK counterparts to me...for example, the second half of VROOOM from VROOOM doesn't have the swirling guitar leads that Marine 475 does. Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream isn't as...shocking...as it is on THRAK. I still say that if more of THRAK had been like SSEDD--clear, with purpose, chaotic, ear-splitting--as opposed to the THRaKaTTak stuff, which never seems to go anywhere, that perhaps KC wouldn't be "fractalizing" right now...The Night Watch is spellbinding. Everyone told me how the sound was better than The Great Deceiver, which has incredible sound to begin with. They were right...it's incredible. I was sorta typing a paper while listening to it the first time, so I didn't notice the infamous dying mellotron in the title track, although it did seem a little empty to me ;) I've got to say that the only thing SABB (the album) has on these performances is Bruford beating the crap out of that gong at the end of Fracture. Other than that, all of Cross' parts that were dubbed out (like on Providence!!) really fit well with the music. Also, re Metheny...I have Imaginary Day and love it...someone posted that it was a bit like light to KC's dark. Interesting comparison, although I'm not sure I agree, based on that one album. The PMG is very positive and upbeat, but the music doesn't have that kind of antithetical feel to KC for me. (The Mahavishnu Orchestra is more of KC's antithesis...compare Inner Mounting Flame and Red...definitely the extreme case but worth pointing out.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:25:06 -0700 From: "Graham Irvine" Subject: crimson & juggling Hello all, I was wondering if any one else noticed the few juggling refrances in some KC songs. "plate spinning statesmen, Acrobatically juggling." CIRKUS - Lizard "the pattern juggler lifts his hands" ItCotCK - ItCotCK I wonder if these few lines were all from Sinfield or if RF had some say in them. Fripp seems like the kind of perfectionist that would make a great juggler. I wondered if there were anyother Crimsonites who were jugglers as well. I find the music hypnotizing when I practice, and am able to really focus on my patterns. My all time faves have to be SaBB, Red, and LtiA. Another question, on the Great Deciever set there is a great song, "Dr. Diamond". Does anyone know the story on this song? I haven't seen it on any album, was it ever recorded other than live? Is there any talk on the grapevine as to when Crimson might refrom and tour. I saw two shows the last time they were around, one in San Diego, the other in Pheonix. They were mind altering experiences and I am craving another Crimson show. I recently saw YES and was totally blown away. I was prepared for alot of new age cheese, but they really put on a high class show. Granted, Anderson looked a little like Richard Simmons. Steve Howe on the other had was really on the ball, and played a picture perfect show. I was completely overwhelmed. Graham Irvine gei at u dot arizona dot edu "I might be vile and pernicious but you cant look away, I make you think I delicious with the stuff that I say, I'm the best you can get have you guessed me yet I'm the slime oozin' out of your T.V. set." ...FZ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 23:54:30 -0700 From: ecerb at indra dot com (Elaine C. Erb) Subject: B.L.U.E. Andy and some others have been asking where and how I got my copy of Upper Extremities. I was lucky enough to get an advance release for the radio station I work for. As far as I know it is only available through Papabear records and should be shipping in April (papabear.com or in US (800) 688-2227 .) I was lucky enough to get an advance release for the radio station I work for. At least it is worth the wait! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 02:29:36 -0600 From: "Rob Murphree" Subject: Re: Has anyone heard Adrian's new album? In ET#467, "Eric Henry Wynter Best" asked: > Has anyone yet heard Adrian's new album? -Eric, In four words: Yes, and it's incredible. Adrian's forthcoming release, BELEWPRINTS is a back-to-the-basics Acoustic release done in a way only Adrian can do. Acoustic guitar, drums, bass, strings, and voice. Although it's only available in Japan at this time, it's scheduled for release in the States and elsewhere very soon. Adrian covers many of his solo classics as well as CAGE, Dinosaur, and the (written for KC, but reclaimed), "I Remember How To Forget". They're all unbelievably amazing on acoustic guitar as only Adrian can do. I believe CDNow has the Japanese release in their catalog as I type this. The one favorite song of the few who have heard it, is his new version of Men In Helicopters. The Eleanor Rigby-styled strings accompaniment alone is worth the purchase of BELEWPRINTS. And although, the Lennon-esque "Free As A Bird" from a live King Crimson show adds to the value of this release, it's his recap of the (should've been radio hit) "Never Enough" that stands out the most. For a collection of BELEWPRINTS soundbytes, check out the BELEWPRINTS page on the Adrian Belew WWW Site. http://web.dbtech.net/~rhino/bprints1.htm -Rob Rob Murphree's Adrian Belew WWW Site http://web.dbtech.net/~rhino ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:52:31 -0500 From: CHRIS_ROSELLE at qvc dot com Subject: ET #467 - Peter Sinfield "Still" The album was called "Still"(Manticore #MC-66667) I have a copy of the original vinyl released in 1973. Tracks included: The Song of the Seagoat; Under the Sky; Will it be you; Wholefood Boogie; Still; Envelopes of Yesterday; The Piper; A House of Hopes & Dreams; & The Night People. Greg Lake plays electric guitar on "Hopes & Dreams". Backing vocals on Wholefood Boogie & joint lead vocals on the title track "Still" He also produced the vocals & had a hand in the mixing. Haven't seen in the record shop in years. The album has a pink jacket. There is a painting "The Big Friend" by Sulamith Wulfing on the cover. There is a photo of Peter on the back of the jacket. To quote the liner notes: "Roll the credits....pass me a Guinness" croselle at qvc dot com, ------------------------------ Subject: Skipping Crimson Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 08:50:12 -0800 From: Lewis Southers >King Crimson are not gods, nor is their music holy scripture. Blasphemy, >then, is not an appropriate word, even as an exaggeration. While skipping tracks may not be blasphemous, I personally try not to do it. In my experience of listen to quality music I find that there are way too many songs that I did not initially like, but over repeated listenings "get". This leads me to the realization that if I'm listening to a quality band they very well may create a bad song, but more than likely I just don't fully understand the song I'm hearing. For that reason I do not skip tracks especially when our friend Bob is factored into the mix. -Lewis FUGAZI / Television / Talking Heads / Sonic Youth / Everclear / Television Personalities / Bob Mould, etc. / Soul Coughing / Lloyd Cole / Afghan Whigs **************************** GO BOLTS!!!!! **************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 98 08:50:10 -0800 From: Lewis Southers Subject: Frippocrite? >That's fascinating advice coming from the man who always complaining >bitterly about how he was financially ripped off by his former >company...and for the past five years or so has been relentlessly cranking >out PRODUCT AFTER PRODUCT for us to BUY. Of course, Gurdjieff was a >big-time hypocrite too... So what is Robert to do in order to avoid hypocricy? He could either not release this "product", or give it away for free. I'd prefer the former did not happen, and I seriously doubt the latter would ever come to pass. If releasing stuff that the fans want to hear is hypocrisy then I'm glad that Mr. Fripp has this all to human frailty Rush / King Crimson / Marillion / Black Sabbath / Pink Floyd / Echolyn / Eloy / Vangelis / Yes / Gentle Giant / Camel / Stravinsky / Boccherini **************************** GO BOLTS!!!!! **************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:47:06 -0500 From: "c. scott roundell" Subject: Peter Sinfield / Progressive Rock The last couple editions of ET, I've noticed a few postings regarding Peter Sinfield's 'solo' work and also people wanting suggestions for other good progressive stuff. Hope I can be of assistance. Peter Sinfield released a very good solo album in 1973 called "Still" (Manitcore MC-66667), which features many of KC alumni including Greg Lake, Ian McDonald (who c0-wrote many of the songs), John Wetton, Boz, Mel Collins, Keith Tippet and Robin Millar. I do not know if it is still in print or available as an import...perhaps Atlantic Records could answer that one for you. As for other good progressive rock from the same era, try checking out an Italian band called Prematia Forneir Marconi (P.F.N for short). Their music is similar to early Genesis, Yes, and E.L.P. and Peter Sinfield and also (I believe) Richard Palmer-James co-wrote many of their songs. They sing in English, and the lead vocalist sounds strikingly similar to Peter Gabriel. I know they released a number of albums on the Manticore label, but unfortunately do not know if they are still available. One last thing.....can anyone possibly give me more information on a Robert Fripp project from 1971 called "Centipede". It was a studio only jazz-rock band with over fifty members and included Ian McDonald, Boz, and Keith Tippet. They only released one album called "Septober Energy" and was only available as a British import. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:13:45 GMT-3 From: "Fabricio Mendonca de Carvalho" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #467 Somebody told me that Ian McDonald lives in Sao Paulo Brazil... If someone knows more about it please contact me... Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 02:51:06 -0600 From: "Ced" Subject: Questions of a First-Timer Greetings All: As this is my first contibution to ET, and I'm also relatively new to the internet, please bear with me if I trod over a little familiar ground. I must say that I've really enjoyed reading the contributions of KC fans around the world. It's always good to know that you're not alone when you proclaim these gentlemen to be the driving force behind your musical ambitions. Well, just a couple of things that I'd like to ask. Please feel free to go a step beyond posting your answer here, and feel free to contact me at cirdec at fastrans dot net. I'm always up for a little chit-chat with a fellow Crimhead! :) *I'm sure there is more than one aspiring guitarist out there. Have any of you actually tried to play in the new standard tuning? I'd like to learn some of Fripp's parts, but as I've been playing less than two years, I find standard tuning challenging enough. Has anyone tried to transpose from one to the other? *What do you think the new record (whenever it surfaces) will sound like? On a player-by-player basis, this band is probably my favorite, with the 80s band in close second. Is KC going industrial? Or will Belew manage to maintain a little (challenging) pop sensibility? And when in blue blazes are we going to see the new disc? *People often ask me why I love this band so much. I tell them that mainly, it's because they don't pander to me. That is, they don't make the music easier, so that I may understand it faster. I have to earn it. I love that. And they seldom repeat themselves. What are some of your reasons? *Does anyone out there know the exact specs of Adrian Belew's Fender Stratocaster? I have my e-mail friend Rob Murphee working on it. But as he is a busy person, if someone else could help me, I would really appreciate it. Well, just a couple of other random thoughts: I thoroughly enjoyed "The Nightwatch." It definitely DOES NOT suck. What I find that I'm really looking forward to is the Longacre Theatre '96 releases. And am I to understand that a Monteal '84 record is also in the works? Mr. Fripp (I feel I owe him that) may not like this statement, but I don't think King Crimson was really King Crimson until Bill Bruford took his place on the drum riser. Is there another drummer out there that could handle the gig? I can't think of one. Well, enough for today. Look forward to reading your thoughts. So Long, Cedric Hendrix (no relation) St. Louis, MO USA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 07:52:58 EST From: Miles Tee Subject: progressive Listening to "Islands" (tape off a well used album) on my train commute then mile walk to work Friday I realized, as I know I already knew, that King Crimson & Company (off shoots, projects, otherwork works, solos etc.) comprise 85% of my musical collection. "Lizard" was my first kiss in 1970, taken in by the progressive jazz sound layered into progressive rock for no other category to place this fine piece of work in my limited musical vocabulary. Bruford's new CD with Towner & Gomez provided for nice dinner music & chat two nights ago. Sometime soon I'll have to put on the headphones and really listen to this piece of art. Most bands have their sound or tardemark, and yes I can hear Fripp's guitar at least a mile away, but King Crimson & Company moves "progressively" in all their compilations. I slide in a little Stanley Clarke (have tickets to HOB 3/11), Chick Corea (have tickets @ Orchestra Hall 3/30) and ever favorite Jorma Kaukonen/Hot Tuna (seen every time he is around) and my palette is more than complete & satisfied. Of course I search music, old & new, for the right sound/feel yet 99.9% of the time come up dry and I will continue to search until King Crimson & Company comes out with something new. For those of you who may like to search and seek variety, my fourteen year old son/musician has taken to two interesting bands - Skinny Puppy & Wumpscut (one person band) - and I highly recommend an ear or two to this sound. Well - maybe some "stick music" in this early AM & some nice acoustic tonight ("Bridge Between" & "Intergalactic Boogie") with some rousing "B'Boom" & "Vroooom" based compilations throughout the day to get and keep those engines running. Have fun & enjoy, Tom PS My opinion: "Great Deceiver" is a classic piece and recommended to anyone who wants to experience King Crimson for the first time - "Night Watch" is a nice addendum to "Great Deceiver" - Whatever the artists would like to play and record is just fine with me, and now a selfish side - please or please consider Chicago in all your tours as we receive you well and it's a good town. Cheers!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 10:30:55 +0000 From: Michael Bennett Subject: Responses to posts Just a few responses to posts of late in E.T. In regards to pricing for Nightwatch, I paid $13.00 for it, new at my local record store. I thought this was an exceptional price, and don't know why it is being sold at upwards of $20.00 elsewhere. Pete Sinfield's first solo album was called "Still". While I no longer own it, and wish I did, I distictly remember at least two of the tracks. One was the last song on side one, which did indeed have Greg Lake's vocals. Near the end of the song, Sinfield's vocals faded out as Lakes faded in, and it made such an impression I remember it even though I haven't heard it in 15 years. The other song I recall had something to do with a philosopher-type being called the Sea-Goat. I did a painting of him, with runic symbols on the hem of his robe that translated the title and the author's names. One question concerning Fripp's influences. Lots of sixties British rockers site American blues artists as a major influence. Has Robert ever commented if this applies to him as well? On the subject of blues, if anyone is a John Lee Hooker fan, please e-mail me privately. Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:58:20 -0500 (EST) From: Bob VanDyne Subject: The Nightwatch: In praise of "LTiA, Part Two" Yet another reformed lurker here. My first posting regards "The Nightwatch" (just picked it up last night; $16.99 at Media Play). I echo other posts in that a lot of this seems superfluous, considering how much has already been released (the S&BB material of course, but I somehow missed the fact that much of "Fright Watch/Talking Drum" is the same recording featured on "Frame by Frame"; so we've already heard most of the improv). But there are pleasures to be found in these versions of the composed tunes, that makes this release worthwhile. Others have commented on the killer "Schizoid Man," and I agree. Overall this is my favorite of the live "Schizoid Mans" (Schizoid Men?), though I still prefer the Bozzy Osbourne vocal on "Earthbound." But a particular highlight here is LTiA, Part Two. I've always preferred the mechanistic "factory production line" studio version over the "freight train threatening to jump the tracks" sound of the various live versions (haven't heard B'Boom). The latter have their appeal, but always sounded a bit rushed to me. But this version is a different animal. The tempo is good, providing ample exploratory space for Bruford. Wetton's bass line is nearly as intricate as the original, yet packs a bigger wallop. And Fripp and Cross sail through/get tossed about nicely by the thunder. All in all, a good compromise, featuring the careful performance of the studio version, but with the immediacy and power that live performance provides. If I may, a bit of non-KC content: I also picked up Joni Mitchell's "Shadows and Light" last night. The complete recording released for the first time on a two CD set (at least in the US). This is not only my favorite Joni Mitchell record but my favorite Jaco Pastorius as well. Superior material can bring out the best in a superior musician. What an immense loss... Thanks to this list and its moderator for indulging those like myself in these forays into minutiae. Enough already. Bob ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #468 ********************************