Errors-To: admin at elephant-talk dot com Reply-To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Sender: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Precedence: bulk From: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To: newsletter at elephant-talk dot com Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #467 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 467 Thursday, 26 February 1998 Today's Topics: Your views about ET? Prog recommendations Larks' Tongues in Aspic Suite? Earthbound on CD & other stuff Sound of Summer Running Elephant Stuff Where's Mastelotto? Mr. Thomson's Metheny recommendation Re: Regarding female Crimpersons 10+ survey Two basses before KC New Papa Bear release? Addendum Epitaph length, fear of flying, Pat Metheny Re: Mike Giles double bass drum "I think Adrian's groovy!" Peter Sinfield Live Recordings & Does "The Nightwatch" Suck? Women listening Crimson.. Re: nightwatch running time About Soundscapes... Great Deceiver? Lizard; This Night Wounds Time Help I'm an idiot CR-Rom problems and DGM(UK) news.... ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to newsletter at elephant-talk dot com To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to admin at elephant-talk dot com, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.elephant-talk.com/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: help at elephant-talk dot com ETWEB: http://www.elephant-talk.com/ You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.elephant-talk.com/cgi-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: 22.08 pm, 26 February 1998 From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: Your views about ET? Hi everyone. I hope you'll enjoy the latest issue. As we continue into our eighth year, I'd like to canvas your views about ET. I know many people value ET as a resource, and as your Smiling Moderator (check those caps) I'd like to make it as good as I can for you. So, if you feel so inclined, please email me (toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk) your responses to the following (all emails considered private and will not be included in ET): - Is there anything you'd like to see change in the ET newsletter? - What do you dislike about ET? What bugs you? - What do you like about ET? What are we doing right? - Tech: can we format the ET newsletter better? - Tech: is the HTML Web version OK for you? - What about ET Web itself? Any comments? Ideas? Suggestions? Want to volunteer to do something cool? - Any other comments you'd like to make? I feel the urge to make some public thanks: * to Mike Dickson, our Subscriptions Supremo and Mellotron Master; * to Dan Kirkdorffer, our Web Wizard and Ideas Initiator; * and to John Relph, the Chalkhills Champion, the Digest Doctor, for his Perfect Perl. Without their help, kindness, friendship and support, I would have thrown in the towel years ago. And thanks to all ETers for the burble. Long may it continue. Cheers Toby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:43:49 +0100 From: Thomas Olsson Subject: Prog recommendations Jon Swinghammer wrote: >Anyhoo...what I would appreciate is some good recommendations for >progressive rock I have heard YES and hate them so please don't recommend >them :) I would appreciate it. Apart from the obvious bands which I'm sure others will mention, I recommend Isildurs Bane from Sweden. Depending on your other prog preferences you may want to check out either the bans earlier output or their later. Personally, I can heartily recommend their latest albums, "The Voyage - A Trip to Elsewhere" and "MIND Volume 1" which are progressive in the true sense of the word (i e not recycling old Genesis/Crimson/Yes/ELP material). Check out their homepage http://www.isildursbane.se , where you can hear some songs from all their albums. Good luck, Thomas. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:51:32 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Larks' Tongues in Aspic Suite? >I believe it would be interesting to hear a combination of titles that >could be known as the "Larks' Tongues in Aspic Suite"... Not only does it sound like a great idea but I believe that KC's 21stCSM CD single already establishes a precedent of sorts for this--this could be another release in the so-called "collectors' series". Kevin Holm-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:46:53 +0100 From: asn at www dot asso dot com (Antonio Rampini) Subject: Earthbound on CD & other stuff Hello friends, it's been a year (circa) since I wrote my first mail to ET, and I just would like to let you know some of the things & stuff I am working at, or just hoping to see realized "one time", plus some comments. I also apologize for the lenght of this mail... 1) Earthbound on CD!! Well,...wait...I...uhmm... I have not found some special javaneese bootleg, neither I am announcing a new DGM re-release "ad hoc" for the north italian market: simply, having bought some weeks ago a CD-Rom Recorder - and, most of all, being a lucky owner of a still pretty untouched vinyle copy of Earthbound, last weekend I tried to import and digitalize the music from my turntable onto my Crimson HD- of course it's a Mac. And I got it! The results: wonderfull!, maybe a *bit* (eh eh) lacky on dynamics, but what a pleasure indeed not to be scared anymore (Earthbound, in spite of the sound quality, has become year after year one of my favourite crimso albums) of listening to it. You know, vinyle is so easy to be damaged, and all these years through I have only being listening to a Earthbound copy on cassette I made the same day I bought the disk (ergo, I have played Earthbound on my turntable only two times!). I absolutely love the energy of Boz singing Schizoid Man, the most anguished version of 21st I ever heard; yes, probably Ian's drumming is quite "linear", if compared to any other crimso drummer-or any other drummer at all... but if you like crimson improvisation, well the whole album IMHO sounds more a strange session than a settled work, if you know what I mean, sort of "ProieKCt 0" never developed. Great document, a must and worth buy for every one of us. I have ended MY CD with another precious and until-now-only-edit-on-vinyle song, Judy Dyble's "I talk to the wind" folk version, from TYPGTKC. 2) ToaPP as a seed for 1995? In ET #461, Neal Brown Patrick wrote: Me, for example. I absolutely agree with Neal - and let me explain it. The 80's Crimson remain my favorite one amongst all the other King incarnations, and Discipline my KC favourite album, with Beat on the same line, but... ToaPP... well, I have always thought there was an abyss between the third 80s' KC work and the previous two, with ToaPP playing the worst part of the three. Also Damon C Capehart (ET 464) says: <"Nuages" and "No Warning" ain't my thing. I skip them. (Come to think of it, I haven't listened to 3oaPP in about 2 years!)> Exactly, that has been also my position for about 10 years or more. I skip those tracks, simply! Better, this is what I have been thinking of ToaPP from 1985 to 1995. I have never been able to listen to ToaPP untill THRAk - and then THRaKaTTaK - were edited: ToaPP was too much different from Discipline, those "sounds" were disturbing me to panic, and then... Then here They come again with VROOOM and THRAk, so new but at the same time so similar to something from the past! After THRAk I spent some time making comparisons between various KC albums, and thanks to these I have to say I have definetely rediscovered the sound of ToaPP. I spent an entire week just listening to Dig Me, No Warning, Industry, Nuages etc., "the dark part of ToaPP", to become finally conscious of the similarities between the atmospheres and the sounds of the last 80s' and the 90s' crimsons. It was only after THRAk I realized how deeping KC were forerunners with ToaPP. How they were anticipating the sound of the 90s'. And what was quite indigestible to my ears, now (ten and more years after also "my way to listen to music" has changed) it is joyly accepted by me - and not only philologically! BTW, that music has been definetely named today "industrial sounds" (Industry?). My idea: KC was too much ahead (ten years ahead) in 1984 with its idea of music, but without a ToaPP IMHO even the 1995 Great Crim would have been different. 3) New Releases. I was in London the 13th of september (my birthday!) for the NigthWatch playback, but for working problems I was forced not to be there for the ProjeKCts Nights. sic :-( So I am really glad to see that both the ProjeKCts are going to be published. In addition, rumours have been circulating, also on ET, about Fripp intents for new "old line-up live" releases. "Absent Lovers" from KC last Montreal concert (but I know we have already a fantastic bootleg of that gig...ahem, forget it Robert), someone said; or another 1994/5 concert. Well, there are so many live crimson periods that have always remained uncovered that, if asked for, I would REALLY vote for something different (of course praying at the same time for a 1998 NEW KC record to be released): sait a dire something from "the Muir period", for example, or the Lizard/Island one - we have Earthbound (and I got it on CD!), but nothing else of the Robert/Boz/Ian/Mel line-up playing Lizard and Island live. And if the idea was to give us another 1994(5) "unofficial/official bootleg", I have to say I would be disappointed as well, and with me a lot of italian friends I have discussed of it with. I'll go beyond the fact we do actually have audio&video documents on that period; but I was in Rome for the 1996 crimso gig, so let me tell you all: why thinking again about 1994/5, since there is definetely so much to listen about the 96 tournee (and I mean not "only" the new Schizoid Man, but also tons of other excellent songs re-performed a la double trio - of course a more *mature* double trio...)?!? 4) Finally, I would like to say a big "GRAZIE" to Toby, for his time, patience (after a mail like this, for example...) and efforts. Grazie mille, Toby, I hope the fun of making it could always exceed the troubles... [ It does, antonio, and thanks for your kind words. -- Toby ] antonio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:59:58 -0500 (EST) From: Damon Mahon Subject: Sound of Summer Running Hi all, Sorry for the low King Crimson content, Toby, but it won't be a thread, and it concerns a previous post. A few weeks ago here I noticed a very favorable review of a demo of the new Mark Johnson album "The Sound of Summer Running". However, when I went into my record store and saw the price ($17!) I chickened out because they wouldn't open a CD up and play it for me so I could decide. Now, I'm not asking for a good/bad review. But can somebody who bought the album tell me what KIND of music it is? Is it Discipline style 80's KC-like stuff? Is it soft and ambient jazz? Is it mixed meter LTIA style, or straight 4/4 stuff, or what? Private responses ONLY please, I would think. -Damon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:29:26 PST From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" Subject: Elephant Stuff >From: "Joseph Basile" >8)Love the Elephant Tapes! It is so cool to put on THE JUKE BOX and >read ET....love it .(have UP NORTH running in my mind...) Again >another way ET amazes me.I feel instead of a cover album ,original >works like these should be released. Glad you tried the new AutoPlay Jukebox. The AutoPlay feature can be accessed from the main page at ET Web, and also from the E Tape page. The AutoPlayer currently holds about four hours of music, and we still have room for more. So write for submission information if you'd like your music to appear on ET. It is quite possible that some of the better original compositions by ETers may appear on an "Elephant Tape" CD. Just added to E Tape is a new release sent in by Magna Carta Records, Liquid Tension Experiment,which features Tony Levin, John Petrucci, Mike Portnoy, and Jordan Rudess. --Jeffrey Weinberger http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:40:41 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Heilbronner Subject: Where's Mastelotto? Greetings: Sorry if I spelled Pat's name wrong. I don't recall any mention of the fact that Mastelotto is not in either Project, nor has he been mentioned in the subgroups of the latest Crimson that have gathered to write and experiment with new ideas. I really dislike much of the basless speculation that occurs on this list (e.g., Robert doesn't like X or thinks Y can't play drums even though he's included Y in his band for 20 years). However, I think Mastelotto's apparent absence raises some interesting questions. I'll leave it to you to fill in the blanks b/c I am reluctant to do so. Bye Mike Heilbronner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:01:28 -0500 From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: Mr. Thomson's Metheny recommendation Oh, yeah, Metheny's something else and I also really enjoy "Imaginary Day." (Hey, Mr. Thomson -- check out Joe Zawinul's "My People" -- from what you say about "Imaginary Day" I think you'll dig it.) But it's worth pointing out he's hot and cold -- I really _don't_ like the PMG's "We Live Here" or Metheny's work with Brecker on "Tales from the Hudson." (Unfamiliar readers note there is a very big distinction between "Pat Metheny" and the "Pat Metheny Group" or PMG -- keyboardist Lyle Mays is an equal partner there and the other players contribute a lot too). Metheny's work with DeJohnette and Hancock ("Parallel Realities") is also a blast. But he became famous quite young (with Gary Burton) and has experimented a LOT, and has a prodigious output -- given the breadth of things he tries, it is not surprising that some stuff seems great (to me) and some mediocre (to me). I guess I also really hate when Metheny plays the damn synth guitar -- it really hides his feel. Not that it _has_ to -- Chick Corea and Joe Zawinul are both really recognizable when playing a synth -- it just does. Metheny sounds like his brother the winds player, when he plays the damn synth guitar. The fretless classical, on the other hand -- I think that's the only such guitar in the world right now, and it suits him. On the other hand I'd be surprised to find most ETers really dig Metheny -- I don't see most ELP and Yes fans seeing Metheny as their kind of thing, generally. They might have an album or two, but, well, it's just not Metheny's thing. Bill Frisell is probably a better fit. Before the mid-80's Frisell was something of the classic ECM guitarist (e.g. Abercrombie, Scofield) -- atmospheric, sort of academic stuff. But he's just exploded somehow, and I think everything he's done -- with Paul Motian, on his own, with John Zorn --has been great in the past decade, and he seems more versatile than even Metheny -- I could really see ETers digging "gone, just like a train" or "Live" or either Ginger Baker Trio album. Many ETers probably won't, on the other hand, like "This Land" though I think it's Frisell's best work myself. Both men are, like Robert Fripp, masters of electronics, feedback, and distortion. I also suspect ETers would like Ben Monder's "Flux" or "Dust," which, though undistorted, really remind me of "Starless and Bible Black" era Crimson. Actually yesterday "The Sound of Summer Running" was released -- Pat Metheny AND Bill Frisell, Joey Baron (truly an astounding drummer -- I listened to his "Down Home" a lot, appreciating the nice bluesy feel, a lot of times before realizing how incredibly polyrhythmic that stuff was), and Marc Johnson (also an incredible bassist. I usually find him to have too heavy a "footprint" -- like Charlie Haden -- but he seems to restrain it a lot here.) It is, frankly, just great -- the four players are in complete sync, and Metheny and Frisell have sufficiently different styles that the interplay between them feels a lot better than the Frisell/Scofield stuff. Any one of the players has greater mastery of his instrument, than the comparable player in the '80s Crimson (with the possible exception of Levin) (please note that I think Fripp, Belew, Bruford and Levin are all noticeably more powerful players today, than they were twelve years ago; I wouldn't make a comparison between Frisell and Metheny and 1990s Fripp or Belew; all these guys seem to have had various sorts of "breakthrough" in the past decade). Anyway -- if the Johnson/Baron/Frisell/Metheny lineup actually _tours_ -- well, wow. Anyway, that's my two cents. God help us if somebody now comes on recommending Russ Freeman or Stanley Jordan ... this can get ugly fast! SK ____________________________________________________________________________ Sanjay Krishnaswamy sanjay at visidyne dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 01:37:14 +1100 From: "Eric Henry Wynter Best" Subject: Re: Regarding female Crimpersons Hear! Hear! for Kathy. Has it occurred to anyone that in order to say that women, as a population, dislike KC more than men, one would have to compare KC fans with all the listening population- male and female- who do not like KC? If this were done I expect that one would find that the ratio of male KC fans to female fans would be statistically insignificant. Furthermore, if, for arguments sake, there were a significant difference between the sexes on the appeal of KC, this result could well have nothing to do with the quality of their music but with aspects of their style, which might be shared across other bands of lesser quality, such as the amount of their music that is loud and discordant. Neither of these qualities are good [or bad] in themselves. Compared to KC, neither Bach nor Beethoven are loud or discordant, yet I can guess which music will best stand the test of time! Reality does not need to screem at us; it can tap us on the shoulder and it can be as silent as the moon reflected on a pond. For me KC are, much of the time a truly great band but they do not cater for everyone's tastes. That is OK, there is a lot of great music out there! Yours, Eric. PS. Has anyone yet heard Adrian's new album? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:10:30 -0500 From: "Louis Courteau" Subject: 10+ survey Dear Fellow ETers, Answers to the survey proposed in ET465 are flooding in. Thanks to all participants. So a two-man team ("kate.d" being Ashley's friend) has been formed to take care of the bundle. Some questions were raised about the fine points behind the survey question. Please don't worry too much about these. Suffice it to say that "(any kind)" means any kind. 8-track cassettes, whatever, even a concert ticket or a tee-shirt may be a "recording" to you. Feel free to interpret the question to suit your taste. However, please do not expect too much statistical density from the results, although we never know. So far, we are glad to announce that everybody who wrote back had good answers. Keep those bytes rolling! But first, read the question once again: Which musicians do you appreciate enough to have collected at least ten recordings (any kind) or (if 10+ doesn't apply) all of their available production? Your 10+ discographers, louis and ashley loco at caractera dot com kate dot d at virgin dot net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:51:51 -0500 From: "Louis Courteau" Subject: Two basses before KC Hello again. Neal Patrick Brown got a load of answers in ET466 as two pioneers of the double bass drum, but nobody could "really think of any music that would have called for 2 basses before Crimson". I certainly can. Let's forget about symphonic music. That would simply not be fair. Nevertheless, Charles Mingus often used a second bass player in his groups in the fifties and sixties; I have heard and seen an Ornette Coleman live album with two basses and a drummer; and I have seen guitarist Terje Rypdal in concert in 1975 or 76 with one electric bass, one double bass, and that underrated magician of the drums, Jon Christensen. Sorry I don't have the names of all those bassists, though. Keep on keeping on, louis courteau loco at caractera dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:06:45 CST From: Andy Dean Subject: New Papa Bear release? Hello ... I have a question for Elaine Erb, and I chose to post to ET rather than use private e-mail because I thought it would be of interest to others. Ms. Erb, in your previous post, you mentioned having a hard time keeping Upper Extremities out of your CD player. As an avid enthusiast of both of Papa Bear's releases so far, I was curious to know how you came across a copy of this CD. The last time I checked PB's website, the packaging hadn't been completed and release was scheduled for April. Is it available now someplace? Just curious ... thank you. --Andy Dean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:01:01 -0500 From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: Addendum I should add, by the way, that, even when very informed by "world" music, both Metheny and Frisell do things which are very distinctly "American." You Old Worlders won't get it ;-) SK ____________________________________________________________________________ Sanjay Krishnaswamy sanjay at visidyne dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:30:00 +0100 From: removed at users dot request (GW) Subject: Epitaph length, fear of flying, Pat Metheny *---------------------------------------------- Andrew Hathikhanavala wrote about the 'Epitaph' set: > the running time is somewhere around 82 minutes. the capacity for a > single cd is somewhere around > 78 minutes? couldnt fripp have cut four > minutes and saved us all a few bucks? And what about the enhanced (CD-ROM) track ? You have to add it to the running time of the audio tracks. BTW: the enhanced track of 'The Nightwatch' and the Quicktime-Video on Tony's 'Caves' - CDs are running very well on my computer ... maybe _all_ ETers should use a Mac ;-) *---------------------------------------------- Taylor K. Sherman wrote: > John Wetton wrote the lyrics to "One More Red Nightmare," I believe. > The song is about a fear of flying, right? Not only this one ... Adrian Belew's 'Fly' (from 'Here') is also about the fear of flying. Maybe it's a KC-singer's syndrome ... *---------------------------------------------- Jim Bricker wrote: > Have you heard Pat Metheny? I think this jazz guitarist shares many > commonalities with Fripp: > virtuosity, a passion to expand the pallet of their music, > and associations with the top players in their field. Yes !!!! For me PM's music is the warm and 'sunny' counterpart to KC's dark harmonies. I love them both. Give the Pat Metheny Groups's latest album 'Imaginary Day' a try and tell me what you think about 'The Roots Of Coincidence' ... ;-) BTW: any ETer attending the PM-gigs in Germany this spring ? I'll be in Duesseldorf, Frankfurt and (hopefully) Cologne. *---------------------------------------------- Thanks to Toby, you're doing a great job ! ET is so much better than all the other lists I read. I wish the Pat Metheny Group had a list like this ... [ Again, thanks for your kind words. -- Toby ] Ciao Gerd *---------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:38:10 -0500 From: Chris Calabrese Subject: Re: Mike Giles double bass drum > From: Chris Mills > Subject: mike giles double bass drum > > re: pushing back the fossil record on the use of double bass drums, i > believe that clive bunker from jethro tull was using such a setup back > in > 1968. This may be true, but what about "Giles, Giles, and Fripp"??? I remember listening to it a couple times, but I can quite remember if he was using a double bass drum. I can't remember the year...but it's before In the Court, so we're talking '67 or '68. Chris -- "Watch religion come and go, Watch corruption on their shows. Buy your silence money for blood, Out of the ark and into the flood..." - Bruce Dickinson "Lickin' the Gun" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 18:14:34 -0600 From: "Michael Sheehan" Subject: "I think Adrian's groovy!" >>> RANDOM POCKET NOTES 1)High school males Eters in Michigan, there is a high school ETer named Stephenie.She has kept me into ET's twice now. She likes Robert and the drummers. <<< For whatever reason this made me wonder how "17" or "Tiger Beat" might do a cover story on King Crimson. "WIn a Dream Date with Robert!" "Dreamy Bill says, 'I like a girl who can keep time with me.'" "Hunky Trey has more than just one oddly-shaped instrument." Aside pimple adverts and feminine hygiene sprays. Tony could do an ad for hair products. And so on. No disrespect to Stephenie intended! I just had the idea in my mind's eye, and... Very well. I personally auto-censor this before it even thinks about becoming a thread. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:17:18 -0500 From: Robin & Rob Hults Subject: Peter Sinfield Many years ago, 1976 I think, Peter Sinfield released a solo album, and on that album did at least on song with Greg Lake. I had the album but loaned it out and never saw it again. I thought I would appeal to fellow ETers and ask two questions: 1.) What was the name of that album? and, 2.) Is it by any chance in print either in the states or as an import? I would appreciate any information anyone could send. Thank you. Rob Hults/ Jazzman at warwick dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:12:15 -0600 From: david suman Subject: Live Recordings & Does "The Nightwatch" Suck? Given Robert Fripp's overall ambivalence towards concert performance recordings and their effect upon the artist/audience relationship, once would assume that this must have been a pretty special event for RF to countenance this release. Given nearly 25 years of musical hindsight, it stands up pretty well, regardless of its relationship to the original release of the "Starless and Bible Black" lp (one that I don't have). Having listened to the entire set 4-5 times in the two weeks since purchasing it, my own opinion is that is is indeed something special. I read RF's liner notes on the circumstance of the concert and his less than sanguine opinion of the ensemble as a musically balanced unit and I find that all of his observations are dead on from a musical standpoint. However, the fact that this was a less than ideal line up has nothing to do with the overall quality of this concert. The sound of this set is marvelous, in large part due to the acoustic excellence of the venue-well known to lovers of classical music. Matching the rich clarity of the sound is a performance that is suffused with many moments of transparent delicacy. The improvisations are spacious marvels of clarity, even those sections that venture far from comfortable structure into considerably more amorphous sonic territory. Overall this is a tremendous show that ranges from prog-rock swagger to moments of tranquil beauty that hang together as a consistent whole. The members of the band knew how to give each other sufficient space in the musical fabric to make such textures possible. So far as RF's diffidence about live recordings is concerned, his qualms about the effect of imposed permanence on the act of performance is as accurate as it is idealistic in a world so addicted documenting everything for the information glut. It really is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle applied to human endeavor. The act of observing (taping) an event alters the event itself at the subatomic level. The knowledge of being taped is certainly going to effect the musician's attitude towards the act of performance as well as the specific performance. I agree with him on a strictly philosophical level, but you're going to have to pry my copies of "The Nightwatch" and "B'Boom" from my cold dead fingers. David R. Suman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:42:40 +0200 From: "Jari Schroderus" Subject: Women listening Crimson.. Yes there are women listenign Crimson. Just the other day I came home from work and I heared through the front door Crimson's Starless and Bible Black.. and it was loud! I gues my wife likes it the best of Crimson albums. My other favourite band is Jethro Tull, but my wife doesn't realy care much for it. Liking and listening to music has absolutely NOTHING to do with sex or age, so PLEASE stop this.. but then again, I'm going on about it my self, aren't I.. Jari Schroderus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:03:46 -0800 From: abhiman at juno dot com Subject: Re: nightwatch running time hello ETers: Regarding 'The Nightwatch', Andrew H. wrote: "has anyone noticed that most stores are selling it for around nineteen dollars?" Circuit City (in the United States) sells the album for $16.99, regularly priced. an excellent bargain for two stellar CDs in my opinion. "the running time is somewhere around 82 minutes. the capacity for a single cd is somewhere around 78 minutes? couldnt fripp have cut four minutes and saved us all a few bucks? this would have fixed the problem of continuity mentioned in someone else's post that i just read, and it would have been more practical in manufacturing. i dont mind paying a little extra for phenomenal music, and double cds are always cooler than singles, but wouldnt it have been more practical?" I think the most important reason for the existence of 'The Nightwatch' is this: a complete, true-to-spirit King Crimson performance. Singleton and Fripp have obviously worked hard to put this performance (without most of the overdubs on SaBB) onto CD, so kudos to them! This is easily my favourite King Crimson release. Perhaps it may have been more practical to release a single CD minus Fripp's spoken comments and the "walk-off" frippscapes, but it would have completely defeated the purpose of this release. This is the most authentic official reproduction of a concert that i have ever heard or heard of. See you at the Los Angeles ProjeKct Two show!!! shine on, Abhi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:13:21 -0500 From: Tommy Kochel Subject: About Soundscapes... Marco Severiens wrote > >I'm very interested in what people find good about Fripp's 'soundscapes'. I >listened to two soundscapes albums very carefully, but it was a great >disappointment to me. I love KC compositions of RF, 'Fracture' from SABB >for example is one of my favorite compositions. How can this man make such >crap nowadays? The only answer to this is that there is probably something >I don't understand about 'soundscapes', or that my musical taste has >stopped developping, something like that. So I would be grateful if someone >could explain what he/she likes about 'soundscapes'. Marco, Naturally, I can only give you one person's opinion. But for me, at this point in my life, I'm very much drawn to the soundscapes recordings. First, I am intrigued by the improvisational, live, for-the-moment nature of most of these releases (most of them being live). Fripp prepares himself to allow the music through him and then focuses his attention for part of the time (the time that he is walking about "not playing") upon the audience (their reactions, intent, level of acceptance - Fripp might well say I'm "all wrong" and want to spit upon my shoe, but again, this is my impression) in order to produce music that is truly for that moment. That is a more meaningful way to make music than I'd commonly heard. Second, the organized, incredibly well-thought out nature of each scape is very interesting for me. A revelation I made by "accident" was just how intricately planned (for the moment) and executed each scape is (as an experiment, pop a disc in and while it is playing, hit fast-forward - listen). There are so many patterns to listen to. The music occupies my mind. Third, Fripp's non-avoidance of dissonant intervals has been mind-opening for me. When I think of music as a deck of cards (and truly I'd need a much larger symbol for a successful comparison), playing the way most folks play music - only with consonant intervals - is essentially stripping out three of the suits and possibly even the face cards of the remaining suit. There are many more combinations available when leaving in the possibility of dissonance. I have come to actually enjoy (and prefer) dissonance at this point, though I am working towards a non-preference. But regardless of whether I _liked_ a particular dissonant interval, I found that when I actively listened, I was able to gain some meaning (a feeling, thought, association) out of these new (for me) relationships. The "game" one could play with that deck of cards would be perhaps short and uninteresting. I've found that I don't even necessarily "like" _all_ of the soundscapes (at least not in the way that I "like" a Stick Bass groove by Tony Levin), but after careful (and repeated) listening, I do appreciate _all_ of them in a way that is meaningful to me. My brother once told me that if he could only have one album for the rest of his life, it would be a jazz album (I believe he was specifically refering to something by Chick Corea) because of all the layers of notes, rhythms, and relationships which require repeated listenings to discover. This is the way I feel about Soundscapes. Tommy Kochel Chapman Grand Stick [teak] #1325 "Entertainment is about telling everybody that everything's alright but music is on the side of the upsetters and that's where I'm at." - Bill Bruford, April 10, 1976, Sounds. "I find it hard to take offense at, or be insulted by, a commentary which demonstrates that life without sentience is not only possible but ongoing." - Robert Fripp, 1997, Epitaph boxed set booklet. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:17:51 -0500 From: Richard Cook Subject: Great Deceiver? Does anyone have a complete discography online with purchase info links? I've been searching around, and have yet to find The Great Deceiver offered anywhere. E.g., I've been to: http://www.discipline.co.uk/ http://www.artist-shop.com/discipln/index.htm http://www.musicblvd.com/cgi-bin/tw/727530888499444_42_38988 The Great Deceiver -- Live 1973-1974 . . . . . . . . . box set 1992 Nov Four Volume Compact Disc Set. Includes 70 page booklet. CDx4: 92.11 US Discipline (Caroline) KC DIS1 (0777 7 86543 2 2) (also CAROL 1597-2 / 0170 4 61597 2 2) Any suggestions? -- _____________________________ Richard S. COOK, Jr. 32 Sterling St. Somerville, MA USA 02144-1117 mailto:rscook at world dot std dot com http://world.std.com/~rscook/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:55:37 PST From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: Lizard; This Night Wounds Time Dear Elephant Talk, I applaud Claire St. Jacques' idea for documenting the "Lizard" period (ET #465). My understanding is that KC existed only in the studio at this stage. I recall Mr. Fripp's comment that Mel Collins was frustrated at this time because he'd been in KC for a year and still had yet to play a gig! I agree that it would be nice to have a live document of the Fripp/Haskell/ Collins/ McCullough edition of KC, but obviously this is not possible. Still, like Ms. St. Jacques, I would welcome the release any studio treasures that may lurk in the Crimso archives from this era, in lieu of live documentation. Please pardon my ignorance, but can anyone clue me into the internal dynamics of the "Lizard" band, and why it split up after recording this remarkable album? There's no accounting for taste of course, but next to ITCOTCK, "Lizard" is my favorite Sinfield-era album. I've always thought it was a shame that this particular incarnation didn't do more. Kudos to Biffy and Kevin Holm-Hudson for their comments on Tom Phillips' artwork. I have long wondered about the origin of "this night wounds time." It seems to me that if you combine the Dylan Thomas quotation with the "illuminated" phrase from Phillips, you arrive at an interesting, allusive(not to mention elusive!), sentence: "Starless and bible black, this night wounds time." Could this perhaps refer to the night of November 23, 1973, when KC delivered the stunning performance at the Concertgebouw that comprises so much of SABB? (I don't yet own "The Night Watch," so perhaps this question is already accounted for. . .) Last week, while teaching two short stories by Nathaniel Hawthorne, I referred to the gloomy, sin-haunted Puritan ethos as "starless and bible black." Not only is it a poetic phrase (naturally!) that rolls off the tongue with great ease, I also thought it neatly captured the general tenor of "The Minister's Black Veil" and "Young Goodman Brown." All the best, Doug ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 98 18:37:38 PST From: Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au Subject: Help I'm an idiot Hi All I wasn't paying attention and I need some information. There was some talk a while ago of a KC tribute CD that featured John Goodsall (of Brand X) on one of the tracks. Would some-one please send me the details of this CD (a mini review would be helpful. Also I need some info on the Levin, Bozzio, Stevens CD. Please email me offline. Thanks Regards Mark Jordan Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:53:44 EST From: NProc35042 Subject: CR-Rom problems and DGM(UK) news.... If you are still having trouble accessing the enhanced section of CD's such as "From the Caves of the Iron Mountain" suggest you try this: go to CD-Rom control panel (such as CD-Rom Tool Kit) and select ".....allow mounting of ISO9660 volumes on dual-format HFS CD Roms": restart and voila! you should have full access to the treasures within. Just received latest mail shot from DGM (UK) and PROJEkCT TWO:Space Groove is listed for April release, with KING CRIMSON 80's: Absent lovers and BRUFORD/LEVIN: Upper Extremities listed for May. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #467 ********************************