Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #443 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 443 Thursday, 11 December 1997 Today's Topics: Not so enhanced ?? King Crimson MP3 bite me bagel boy G3 Gig 26Sep97 Vancouver, BC. Re: hm FOR SALE: Fripp Photos Re: Bite me bagel boy Re: Not so enhanced ?? Re: Not so enhanced ?? King Crimson Puzzle... gold cd's, bootlegging, 80's music and other horrible nightmares photos and Zappa Re: Enhanced "Night Watch"? (Steve Smith) Re: Bite Me Bagel Boy - last night of Projekt One NYC NIGHT WATCH playback Projekt reflections I can write, honest! Night On Bald Mountain/Ian MacDonald Observations Zappa/Crimson & Screensaver Tabulature and Frank and Robert IRC Chat with PossProd re-scheduled for Mon, Dec 15 Re: Fripp contributions to ET KC desktop theme notes Coherence 'EXPOSURE' for sale Can't resist posting any longer re: Enhanced "Night Watch" Experimentation in pop-music KC, Zappa, and the New Direction My journey to London EXCLUSIVE PREVIEW OF THE NEW KC STUDIO ALBUM Being There..... Music & Monologue Fripp,Boston, HOB, 12/16/97 Mr. Fripp at the Birchmere To trade: LoG/Fripp & KC 7" ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Tim Meadowcroft Subject: Not so enhanced ?? Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:57:57 -0000 >Subject: Enhanced "Night Watch"? > >I've *got* a PC with a CD-ROM drive. I've *got* Windows 95. And I've >*got* a European copy of "The Night Watch" thanks to a friend in Wales. >And I'm *relatively* bright, to boot. So why can't I figure out how to >access these multimedia files on my computer? The only thing that happens >when I stick disc 2 in the CD-ROM drive is it plays the music. And when I >check in Windows Explorer, all it shows me is the music tracks. Help! >Private responses welcome if Toby prefers it that way. Ok, I promise, last time I'll plug my wife's work on ET (for a while), but you're probably not the only one to suffer from this, so with Toby's indulgence... Unfortunately the enhanced CD "standard" isn't quite - the best approach still doesn't offer 100% compatibility, but you may find success with a real mode (DOS) CD-ROM driver, or if you're already using one try removing it and using the built-in 95 drivers. And yes, I know PC's/Windows suck, but so do Macs, Unix (esp Suns), Next, Linux, even PDP-11, Sinclair Spectrums, bozos with flash guns and petulent guitar gods (well, sometimes). I've CC'ed the Abbey Road crew, but she who must be obeyed tends to automatically delete any mail from me though (starting to sound like the newsgroup alt.2eggs.sausage.beans.tomatoes.2toast.largetea.cheerslove) , so I'd recommend you try emailing her direct too !! Hope you have some joy Tim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:38:28 -0500 From: Bartek Boryczko Subject: King Crimson MP3 Organization: SUNY at Albany Any idea where I can find some mp3's of king crimson's music...especially Elephant Talk and such. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:26:20 -0500 From: bru bilford Organization: i was naked Subject: bite me bagel boy apparently this is an inside joke amongst the band, as Trey has chosen to inscribe this on the scrolling screen of his main effects device in his rack.(Eventide Harmonizer, model 3000, i believe). Standing in the doorway on Monday night waiting to pick up my tickets, i was stunned to see Bill bop in. the only thing i could think of saying was "Hello, William." apparently either thinking i was part of the security staff, or totally playing with my head, he replied, "I'm with the band." hysterically, i said " I'm well aware of that"; he smiled, and off he went. man, would i love to talk to him for an hour or two. Tony, who i talked to after the show, was the sweetest guy one could hope to meet. Telling him that i lived an hour or so south of him, he went on to ask me how my flight was, which airline i flew, etc., etc. i never even got a chance to talk music with him. what a pleasant man.i was so caught off guard that i never even asked him to sign the cd that i had in my pocket. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 17:58:34 -0800 From: Mike McCartney Subject: G3 Gig 26Sep97 Vancouver, BC. Hello, I have been subscribed to the list a few times for a total of a year. This is my first post so bear with me. I attended the G3 show, which incidentally opened the second leg of their current tour, in Vancouver on Friday September 26th. Mr. Fripp opened for G3 with some spectacular Soundscapes. I really love the Soundscape albums but I didn't appreicate the grandure of Soundscapes until hearing them up close in person. Unfortuanately on this beautiful Fall night in Vancouver the audience at the show was less then respectable. All parties were quiet and attentive for the beginning of the Soundscapes. However, as the daylight faded the audience grew restless. Soon enough after that people began jeering and heckling Mr. Fripp. My hope, as one of the few at the show who specifically came to see Mr. Fripp and not those other 3 guys, is that (a) Mr. Fripp didn't see this poor display of courtesy, and/or, (b) Mr. Fripp's opinion of Vancouver hasn't changed for the worse after this display. After witnessing this lack of courtesy I asked myself, "Why this would happen?". I came up with several reasons. The first, and most likely, is that the majority of the audience was at the show in question to see Shepherd, Vai, or Satriani and therefore their style of music. I know that many at that show didn't even know who Mr. Fripp was, so it is understandable that they figured him to be the same style. When Mr. Fripp didn't start out with some 1980's influenced Jimi Hendrix tune they didn't know what to think and began the jeer-fest. The second reason I thought of was due to the fact that Mr. Fripp's equipment seemed to be playing havoc with the speakers in the Plaza of Nations. Therefore, he was often getting off of his stool and checking with the roadies to see if he should continue or not. This, however, does not seem reason enough to me to justify the jeering and heckling that ensued near the end of Mr. Fripp's performance. As a resident of Vancouver and a huge fan of Mr. Fripp & King Crimson I am going to apologize to Mr. Fripp on behalf of the unruley attendees of the Vancouver G3 show. I hope that Mr Fripp's opinion of Vancouver as a city was not disuaded by that show and that he will accept my apology on behalf of the unruley at the show. Thanks, Mike McCartney PS: As a side not to this spectacle. I had a few choice words to the several hecklers around myself in the audience. Needless to say these people stopped their jeering at my request. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:07:31 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: hm >From: Tomas Howie > >if the readers of ET are anything, >they are...people who recognize and patronize brilliance >regardless of the genre. We must be reading different lists. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 00:34:23 -0800 From: Wade Naveja Subject: FOR SALE: Fripp Photos A friend of mine emailed me with the news that he wishes to part with much of his Fripp/King Crimson memorabilia. He has a couple of FANTASTIC pictures of Mr. Fripp he would like to sell. Below, I've pasted the relevant portion of his message: > The Fripp photos are 16x20" (B&W), from the 1979 > Frippertronincs Tour; taken during the downtown Seattle Tower Records > in-store appearance. I'll sell the pair for $60 (will settle for fifty, > however). My phone number (if they want to call direct) is (206) > 322-2755; they can leave a msg anytime... He can also be emailed at bk499 at scn dot org Regards, Wade Naveja ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:47:31 +0100 From: Roger Espel Llima Subject: Re: Bite me bagel boy > One last point, > one of the effects units had the message "Bite Me Bagel Boy" (or maybe > "Bite Die Bagel Boy") scrolling across its display most of the night, is > this the name of the album or is it a new RF aphorism ? Anyone care to > explain ? It had the same message on wednesday and thursday, and that unit was part of Trey's equipment. I'm as clueless as anyone else as to why the message was there... -- Roger Espel Llima espel at llaic dot u-clermont1 dot fr, espel at unix dot bigots dot org http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html ------------------------------ From: sam dot harvey at abbey-road dot com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:23:17 +0000 Subject: Re: Not so enhanced ?? >From the evil woman who allegedly deletes emails with intent... The standard technical response is that your CD-ROM drive is not 100% multisession. When NEC and Tosh (and a few others) first made multisession drives there was a bug in the firmware which for some reason noone has ever been able to explain to me meant that they can probably read photoCDs but no other multisession discs. If you are running 95 this is most likely to be the problem, as the 95 drivers are pretty much up to speed with this format now, although it is worth making sure that you have the most up-to-date version. You can try contacting the manufacturer of your CD-ROM drive who will if pushed give you the firmware upgrade, but the simplest solution is to get a new drive. Sorry! Sam ------------------------------ From: sam dot harvey at abbey-road dot com Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:25:14 +0000 Subject: Re: Not so enhanced ?? The other and more simple answer may be that you have an unenhanced version of The Nightwatch. Those which were available at the playback were not enhanced. Have a look on the back of the packaging. If there is an abbey road logo in the far left corner it is enhanced, if not your problem is more easily solved. Sam ------------------------------ From: "Jefferson Marker Lawrence" Subject: King Crimson Puzzle... Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:54:54 -0500 Take a look at the puzzle for December 8th om the Dilbert's Daily Mental Workout. The address is: http://umweb1.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert/ddmw/archive/ it mentions many great bands in a mental puzzle. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 14:10:15 +0000 From: kate Subject: gold cd's, bootlegging, 80's music and other horrible nightmares g'day. a few points. (I) a few years ago there was a series of posts originating from one "bow ceaver" on the subject of painting records and cd's gold for improved aural pleasure (a total piss-take), i've been trying to find these posts recently but have been unable to do so, could someone point me to the correct digest#? (II) i think it's been highlighted (for looong enough) that bootlegs are both a menace and (at least for the audient) a godsend, i personally never allow my albums to be recorded by anyone for any reason yet i admit to owning a few boots, i wouldn't swap my copies of unpronouncable or absent lovers for anything (the former being the perfect end to the 80's trilogy, a live album, like a full stop).i suspect we could all assume that it's a topic that has been thrashed about for longer than THIS forum has been around and no-one will ever devise an absolute solution to it, it's like war, you can jump up and down about it, but it's never gonna stop it. i, for one, am bored to death hearing psuedo-moralists doing their air-guitar moralising about it (from both sides). (III) certain et'ers have recently made comments about "that 80's sound" of which i concur, it's a whole-heartedly disgusting technique that IMHO seems to have been perpetrated by producers and engineers, more than the actual musicians, although certain instrument fads are also to blame, i admit. However King Crimson seems to have been the white light, as they are in the 90's,at the end of the tunnel. personally, i find it difficult to see any valid music that has taken place in the last 15-20 years, my prejudice, i know, but KC shone like a lighthouse in the middle of a sargasso sea full of crud. i enjoy the sounds and feel they used the technology of the time to fit their needs, as opposed to fitting the demands of the technology. a relative newcomer to KC i have found that every album is a joy, even earthbound, in it's own right. (IV) there is an intangible relationship between Zappa & crim/fripp i dunno what it is, for those of us that detest 4/4 we can see it, we can't always describe it. i had a really REALLY cool boss in my last job who GAVE me 20 zappa albums all mint...most of em pretty rare, i have since discovered that zappa is far cooler than i originally suspected.also zappa was more of an intellectual than he liked to admit. that's my rant. ashley ##==OO ************************************************************************************************************** "if it's got a good beat "what's the point of tooting your horn and you can dance to it when someone's cut you off you're doing it wrong" they've already done it" -me -my mate loxley ************************************************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:20:04 -0500 (EST) From: Damon Mahon Subject: photos and Zappa First of all, to respond to any who would disapprove of Fripp's conduct over the two photographs at the Jazz cafe gigs: according to those who were there, there were "no photography" signs clearly marked. Flash photography is extremely distracting to a performer; I have had band directors much more crowd-friendly than Fripp stop a piece in the middle of a concert because somebody took a flash photograph. What I'm trying to say is: while some of us may view some of Fripp's behavior towards crowds in general as excessively reclusive, I believe that he was acting as any serious performer would when those photographs were taken and I see no problem with his conduct in this instance whatsoever. So a note to all ETers: PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE in future leave the cameras at home! For those who would say stopping a piece due to the behavior of a few audience members is excessive, how about an entire concert? Listen to "Geneva Farewell," the last track of Disc 2 of Zappa's You Can't Do That on Satge Anymore Volume 5 for a good example of this. And speaking of Zappa, a connection with Fripp nobody has picked up on. Both had/have great difficulties promoting their own rights as musicians, both with record companies and with other people (the famous "The crown vs. Zappa" case comes to mind). One merely needs to read the liner notes to Intergalactic Boogie Express and any biography of Zappa to see this... hence the invention of DGM and of Barking Pumpkin. Perhaps ETers as a whole are drawn to performers who "fight the system" in order to secure their own rights and the rights of those like them. This could mean one of 2 things: 1) we're a bunch of liberty-lovin' freedom fighers or 2) we're a bunch of outcast zealots. You decide. ;) By the way, while we may have lots of enthusiasm for Zappa, a large chunk of Zappa fans could care less about KC; has anyone noticed this? -Damon ------------------------------ From: Camzone Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:24:50 EST Subject: Re: Enhanced "Night Watch"? (Steve Smith) Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Well, they said that every CD that they produce now will be enhanced in just the same way. Artist bios etc. Just put it on the ET thingy. ------------------------------ From: Camzone Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:40:39 EST Subject: Re: Bite Me Bagel Boy - last night of Projekt One Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) "Bite Me Bagel Boy". This was scrolling along Trey Gunn's amplifier (and what an amplifer). No it isn't the name of the new album (I think it was DejaVrooom last time I asked) and it's nothing to do with RF. As far as I can tell, it's a reference to Tony Levin. "Tony is Jewish and so are bagels" is the only link I have. Prince Scarlet Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:35:12 -0500 (EST) From: Andy Acunzo Subject: NYC NIGHT WATCH playback Hello, I haven't seen any mention of this yet, so here goes: According to John Wetton's official home page, there will be a NIGHT WATCH playback/signing in New York City on January 17, 1998. No location is listed yet. Oh boy! Us New Yorkers are getting almost as spoiled as you Londoners, although you got Projeckt One... :) ttyl, Andy Acunzo aacunzo at sbchem dot sunysb dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 17:37:55 +0000 From: Tony Brown Subject: Projekt reflections Hello all I won't add to the reviews of the Projekt One gigs down so far (largely because I couldn't review my way out of a paper bag), but thought I might share some (random) impressions with the rest of you. I was lucky enough to be able to make both the Monday and Thursday shows, both standing downstairs. I think Thursday just about edged Monday, although to me both were just about as special as they come. Anyway, here we go.... 1. Why on earth don't King Crimson sound like this?. They sounded better (more alive, vibrant, inspired) than Crimson have done since they reformed the last time. On reflection ThrakAttak just sounds plain dull and well, tedious (aghast readers should note I was never very taken by TA) 2. Is Trey Gunn the sorcerors apprentice?. I was really, really surprised by his playing. Even after seeing KC live I could never quite work out what he did and (sorry if this sounds harsh) why he was in the band. But now...its all clear. On the Monday he took the lead so much, and sounded so Fripp-like, that I thought that perhaps it was a 'told you so' from RF, or perhaps he was being groomed to take over when RF is ready to pass the KC thing on. Thursday made things clearer. He's just _bloody_ good, and is totally wasted sitting in the background as much as he did on Vroom through to TA. If ever you're looking to move to Swindon, Trey, there's a place in a band waiting for you :) 3. Aren't KC audiences polite?. The friend I was with was completely amazed that people were saying 'excuse me' as they passed through the crowd... 4. Amazingly, I completely missed the flash that caused RF to break off his chat and go and start playing. Although I was hanging on every word, the first thing I noticed was the 'oooooo' from the crowd (which sounded like a sarcastic dig at RF rather than at the photographer). 5. DGM, release as many versions of these shows as you want. I'll buy the lot! (unlike the November Suuite, which I wanted to buy on Monday but got a (gorgeous) soundscapes calender instead because you said you'd still have it Thursday and had sold out by then...damn!). Largely inconsequential I know. To paraphrase RF, now, ignore most of this. Cheers Tony ------------------------------ From: JRHARTLEY1 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:56:00 EST Subject: I can write, honest! Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) >From JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com 9thDecember '97 Hello. I refer to my recent posting to ET. Robert and Trey 'WORKED' well together. They did not 'WOK' well together. There were no woks in sight. No cooking and no woks. Rember, boys and girls. Drinking too much beer and then writing to ET is a silly thing to do! Simon of the South. ------------------------------ From: "Stafford, Dave" Subject: Night On Bald Mountain/Ian MacDonald Date: Tue, 09 Dec 97 12:52:00 PST In ET 439 >-- Erwin Bush adds: >P.S. In the 2+ years I've been silently lurking in the background here I >don't remember anyone mentioning Ian McDonald's involvement in producing >and playing on Fireballet's "Night on Bald Mountain" album. Is anyone else >familiar with them? I've had a cassette of this (made from a friends album some twenty years ago (?) for ages. It's a very cool record, probably my favourite non-Crimson MacDonald performance besides MacDonald & Giles. If ANYONE knows of a CD release of this, PLEASE let me know! And thanks to Erwin for reminding me of it. It *IS* a bit obscure isn't it? that's it... dave at studio seventeen ------------------------------ From: Dave Goldsmith Subject: Observations Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:03:30 -0000 >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:15:34 -0600 >From: Antarctica Media >Subject: RF / Photographer > >If the posts are correct about the Jazz Cafe gig it seems Robert stopped >playing and left the stage after a person in the audience snapped a >photograph. This reaction seems to say that the entire audience was >punished because of actions of a single person. Just a few points about the post I made, RF (in my humble opinion) was about to put something together, maybe just another small loop? (it was getting a bit repetitive) or maybe a few other sounds to start the evening along? Who knows, we never will know what RF's intentions were, but whatever they were it was bloody discourteous in the extreme to start snapping as soon as he appears. I know I would be well p----d off if it happened to me. Anyway he showed considerable annoyance (my observation) and yanked (sorry to USA ETers :-)) his lead from guitar and would I'm sure have dropped his guitar if he did have less respect for it. And finally apologies for the terrible spelling on my last post it just kinda crept out (perhaps Toby could spell check for us ;-)) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:39:38 +0100 Subject: Zappa/Crimson & Screensaver From: UMrosek at t-online dot de (Ulrich Mrosek) 1.In hope not to be boring I want to add to the Zappa/Crimson debate that I am a die-hard fan of both: Zappa AND Crimson, but I never ever had the idea to compare one to the other because to me these are two totally different worlds with no conjunction whatsoever. Of course this might derive from the fact that I'm neither a musician nor able to read or play music; (By the way: I even heard Woyzeck not more than once...) I'm just a music consumer and make my musical judgements whether something is worth to listen to or not right from the simple question: do I like it or not ? Maybe Adrian Belew - the only existing living link between the two - is able to answer the question... By the way: I remember a radio phone-in interview of Zappa where he has been asked about Robert Fripp's work. As far as I remember the answer was something like "I never heard of this guy...."Hmmmm! Has Fripp ever made a statement about Zappa's work ??? 2. I heard a rumour that there should exist a Crimson-screensaver ?? If so, is it still available (and where can I get it from ?) and even more important: is it available for MacOs-user ? Feel free to contact me directly! Speaking of that: For all the friends of Frank Zappa and the artwork of the great Cal Schenkel - you can download your personal screensaver (for free) - Mac and Windows - from the net. Try it out; it's funny! It's available at http://www.rykodisc.com/3/central/fzscrn.html - Uli ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 10:01:37 PST Subject: Tabulature and Frank and Robert TAB vs STAFF In ET442 G. Randolph Maruschock writes "As much as i want to learn from KC songs (i play guitar), i hold a permenant grudge against tablature based on my encounters with it and staff paper." Why is this G. Randolph Maruschock? Did the tabulature jump off your desk and try to hump your leg? Tabulature has existed a long time. It was in fact in existence before staff notation (I think I read somewhere that the first music notation was tab for lute). Personally I find it able to express the intricacies of the guitar better than staff notation ever can. However Tab is much harder to express time with. Staff beats it hands down for this. A combination of the two is the best. Don't let supposed "correct" means stifle your creativity or learning experience. FRIPP and ZAPPA I personally have a huge amount of each these artists recorded output. I also have a large amount of other artists I have felt have pushed the boundaries modern music whilst including phenominal musicianmanship. This has mostly encompassed what is termed Progressive Rock, Jazz/Jazz Rock Fusion and some Heavy Metal/Rock. This is pretty much true of most of my aquaintences with similar tastes. Many of these people have also been musicians. A lot of other people that I have tried unsuccessfully to introduce to these various styles have found the music to be "too busy" or "too noisy" or have complained because "they are playing out of tune" which I interpreted as not following standard structure such as I-IV-V. There was one person that became a convert to Progressive and Jazz styles after I played Allan Holdsworth to him and his comment was "The changes don't go where you expect them to but still sound right, It's fantastic" Enough rambling "I love it. It's a way of life" FZ Regards to all Mark Jordan ------------------------------ From: DanKirkd Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:05:27 EST Subject: IRC Chat with PossProd re-scheduled for Mon, Dec 15 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) The Possible Productions chat that was supposed to happen December 8th, but didn't, is now scheduled for next Monday, December 15th. Once again, we'll be on Undernet at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern, 2am GMT on the #ElephantTalk channel. Amy apologizes for not being able to participate this past Monday, but she promises to be there Dec 15th. Meanwhile she's been working at getting the Night Watch CDs and The Noise and Live in Japan TOaPP videos ready for release. Speaking of which, I better get my order right now! ------------------------------ From: DanKirkd Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:18:19 EST Subject: Re: Fripp contributions to ET Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Mikewyz did a great job compiling a list of past contributions by the Frippster to ET, but he missed a few. In digest 111 Toby posted Fripp's Eulogy to his mother Edith Fripp, and in digest 120 we had Fripps "The Road to Graceland" article. Also, the digest 145 contribution was followed up by another in digest 147. Cheers! Dan ET Web ------------------------------ From: "Stephen L Arnold" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 21:46:50 +0800 Subject: KC desktop theme notes Howdy Folks: If anyone is interested in trying the KC theme (or themes in general) at: http://home.interlink.or.jp/~t-yasuda/_private/King_Crimson.zip you can do it without buying the extra MS Plus crap. Just grab the Plus demo at: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/thirdparty/plus/theme.htm There's also a short FAQ on Dale's theme page: http://209.8.76.171/index.htm I haven't tried the KC theme yet (downloading it now) but I found a cool FZ theme, Babylon 5, etc. Themes are one of the few things that make win95 worthwhile (as opposed to linux :-) Back to lurk-mode... ************************************************************* Steve Arnold sarnold at earthling dot net http://www.rain.org/~sarnold Fatal error 95: MS Windows detected, deleting DOS partition... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 10:09 GMT0 From: elmactimw at cix dot compulink dot co dot uk (T Williams Elmac Services) Subject: Coherence > I'm glad it was mentioned too. Both Bennett and Gurdjieff are examples of > hybrid pseudo-mystics who have (wittingly or unwittingly) drawn from > several sources to propagate their charlatanism. [etc., snipped] Well, I knew Gurdjieff was contentious, but I am mightily impressed that the mere mention of his name is able to press such a deeply felt button in someone. A professional philosopher too! Did the Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy ever make it across the pond? Remember Vroomfondel and Majikthise - "We want that machine off and we want it off now"? No? Oh well... About the only point which I can sensibly debate in that diatribe is the statement 'his "system" of "The Work" is entirely incoherent and unqualified'. On the contrary, the system laid out by Bennett in "The Sevenfold Work" is highly coherent and contains advice not only about a system of philosophy but, more important, about a method of implementing that philosophy in real life. And a method which, to get back to the subject of this newsletter, we can see being acted out in front of our eyes and ears. Sometimes, I fear, rather imperfectly. I was at Tuesday's ProjeKCt One and have read the ensuing reactions with interest. I came away from the gig with very mixed emotions. On the one hand I was dead chuffed to have most of my favourite musicians in the room all at once and within a few feet, almost touchable. On the other hand, at the end I'd come to the conclusion that hearing four of the best musicians in the world having an extended thrash (they used to be called jam sessions) on stage without a tune in sight, was not so much different from hearing any other four musicians equipped with the same technology having an extended thrash on stage. The tune's the thing; without it the music is barren. The published purpose of ProjeKCt One was "R & D for the Greater Crim". This presumably means that the band will be trawling through the tapes of the four nights, alert for any snatches which are suitable to work up into a real piece of work which can stand for posterity. Here's hoping. But such a piece must have structure and melody, as well as being composed of raw material. All we had on Tuesday was raw material. There were indeed flashes of brilliance. Bruford was undeniably the leader almost throughout. His ability to set a context and then elaborate it is infinite. For my money the best guitar playing came from Trey Gunn. There was a piece about halfway through the first set - without drums, Bruford standing motionless behind his kit - when Fripp and Levin gave him an extended backdrop over which to solo, which came across as pure magic; whereas his technique and melodic approach were less suited to the directionless thrashing of some of the other pieces. And he has the gentlest smile you will ever see on a rock stage. But it was his stack across which the message "Bite me bagel boy" was scrolling. Esoteric philosophy or evidence of a darker side to his personality? There are no bagels in Camden Town. Fripp seems to be preoccupied with using his guitar synthesiser to the limits of its capability. This is a shame; he is such a consummate guitarist and so capable of making his guitar sing its own song, that to mask it with technology seems a waste. On "Adrian's Corner" Belew remarks that "Robert and I both have started at ground zero with our guitar equipment in an effort to inspire new sounds". One might suppose that the Roland will be an integral part of these new sounds, but for myself, I'd rather it was used more sparingly. So, it's probably obvious that I'm not one of those clamouring for the four gigs to be rushed out on CD as soon as possible. Being in the same room as those people was just fine; and I'd like to hear them play some real music sometime soon. One last thought: what is the origin of Fripp's evidently powerful aversion to cameras? Does he, with the North American Indians, believe that a photograph takes away a part of your soul? Or is it that he's hyper-sensitive to bright flashes? Anyone know? Tim W ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:25:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Markus Schneemann Subject: 'EXPOSURE' for sale I've got a spare, new 'Exposure' (Fripp 1979) CD, definite edition. Those interested, email me privately; schneem at icrf dot icnet dot uk 9-10 pounds / 11/12 $. Markus ------------------------------ From: Brad Davison Subject: Can't resist posting any longer Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:41:29 -0500 I'm new to ET, but I'm thrilled to find such a forum. I don't want to clutter; I just wish to weigh in. Is anyone able to inform me as to location of Guitarcraft? I've had friends of friend who participated while it was in West Virginia; any hopes of ever finding it in or near the state of Virginia again? Now, I'm going to start typing out of the side of my head, and it could get ugly and disjointed, thought-wise. I'm having trouble with some issues being discussed lately; issues which I feel are not entirely separate. I'm referring to the thread regarding how much artist accessibility audiences desire and the photographic event that occured at PROJEkT ONE (sp?). First, I'm very troubled by this photographer. The music is the currency that an audience member is dealing in and, to me, it's a gift, for it goes beyond the price of a ticket. Whatever makes an artist whom I want to see and study as a musician get on stage and expose themselves is their business. But in such a situation, I am a fortunate recipient of a priceless gift. If that person will verbalize thoughts about the music or production or future plansand goals, that's just more of the same. Trying to take something from an artist, be it a photo or trying to solicit conversation about music thoughts, when that artist has just communicated to the audience in full, in musical terms, may alter what they are willing to give. I'm going to try a secure tickets for a Soundscapes show tonight @ the Birchmere. I can't say I wouldn't like a photo of him, but not if he doesn't want to be photographed. That defeats the purpose. I can't say I won't try and get his attention to express my gratitude and awe in a fuller manner than applause. But forget trying to talk music or production. He will have just talked music with me via guitar. There's enough machinery in place to find out where I can get such-and-such a recording of This-and-that Live. If I want to talk music with him, it involves me going home, shutting up, and finding those chat rooms with my instrument. Any thoughts or am I beating a dead horse? My mind's made of grey matter, not stone. Brad D. 12/10/97 Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:00:48 +0100 Subject: re: Enhanced "Night Watch" From: Wolfgang Armbruster Organization: Schroeder Edition Dachtel <> ..I'm using a multi-session CD-ROMdrive but the drive doesn't "see" anything else but audio files... Is it for sure, that there are data files on the second CD? I got my copy directly from DGM and even the DGM-catalog doesn't indicate that this is in enhanced format...!? Who knows for sure? - - - - - - - - - - Wolfgang Armbruster wolffsed at Calw dot netsurf dot de ------------------------------ From: "Denis Robitaille" , ca at bach dot videotron dot net Subject: Experimentation in pop-music Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:09:29 -0500 I just read a review of 'Epitaph' wich made me jump in my seat! It seems that most old-style prog fans are blind to much of what is going on in today's music business. When I read something about the "good old days when bands were allowed to experiment", I wonder if the writer has heard of Nine Inch Nails or Portish Head. Not that I like them, but we cannot escape the fact that some bands DO get the freedom to try different things AND they get published. The point is that most of the so-called 'prog-bands' of recent years have not published much original material; why write something that has already been written? I will not give names of bands,but I find a lot of ' 90s prog to be trash. Of course this is debatable...I think it SHOULD be debated. Opinions? ------------------------------ From: "eraser head" Subject: KC, Zappa, and the New Direction Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 07:07:11 PST Grettings all! This being my first post to ET, I'll just say real quick that I've been a huge KC fan for the past 10 years, and the boys have been a huge inspiration for me as a musician (I'm primarily a bassist, but I also play guitar and keyboards.) The Zappa/KC discussion interests me. Fripp and Zappa are two of my biggest influences and I feel strongly about the vast majority of BOTH of their respective catalogs. My feeling is that surface differences don't really change the fact that both men were aiming for very similar goals, just coming at it from a different perspective. I think the whole "intellectual" thing about their music (and progressive rock in general) has been played up a bit much. I sense a lot of intelligence and fun in both Frank's work and Uncle Bob's. There is very little in either musician's catalog that I don't hugely enjoy. I suppose my favorite KC would be the 73-74 period, and my fave Frank would be between Uncle Meat and Apostrophe. But that's leaving out an awful lot. Oh, and to the person who bought up Keneally's "Sluggo", thank you. I'm a big MK fan as well, and am ordering my copy from Immune Records this week. They have been quite good to me in the last couple weeks, and I recommend Mike's work to any and all FZ and KC fans. On another note, I'm very excited about the "new direction" of KC, whatever it may be. I couldn't go to London for Projekt One, but I'm hoping to see P2 in Nashville (I'm in Indiana). The reviews of P1 have fascinated me, and the quote ascribed to Belew about the band aiming for a leap forward comprable to that of Discipline thrills me. I'm starting to be optomistic about the future of rock again, God forbid! :-) Well, I'm off. I'm listening to a bootleg (horrible unethical individual that I am) of Hendrix from '69. Now, what would it sound like to have a cross between Hendrix, Bartok and Zappa? Hmmm.... :-) Have a great day! Doug Boucher AKA Eraserhead667 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:54:45 -0500 From: alan s cohen Subject: My journey to London I won't review the ProjeKcts One concerts, as it's been very well covered here already. But let me say that I was surprised at just how many of the pieces worked. Given the nature of free improv, some of it would inevitably lay there. But not that much. I walked in thinking that a CD of the best of the shows is inevitable. Now I wonder how the lads will whittle it down to 2 CDs. And so far no one has mentioned seeing Mike Giles in the audience on Thursday. I wasn't 2 feet away from him in the lobby. Dressed in a jacket and tie, looking every bit the English country gentleman. But now for the personal bits. Like when I got to the Cafe on Wednesday, and who did I see walking out but Mr. Bruford. I froze for a second, then yelled "Bill!". He stopped and we spoke for a couple of minutes, and I can only confirm that he is as nice as everyone says. So at the end of the show, Bill was thanking everyone for showing up, then made special mention of the people who came in from the States, "like Philadelphia (me!!), Chicago, Orlando..." Needless to say, I floated back to my hotel. I was talking to the man selling the merchandise (did anyone else think that he sounded like English comedian Alexi Sayle?) about the John Miller calender. He pulled out a catalog he had picked up from an art gallery on Cork Street and told me where to get it. So I went the next day (amazing street for us art lovers- each gallery sold books of works by whomever they were exhibiting; I bought 3). When I mentioned to a rather conservative looking Englishman that I knew of Millers work through the Fripp covers, he got this big smile on his face and offered me his hand for a handshake. "Do you work with him" he asked. No, just a fanatic. He told me that Fripp had been in there before and that he was very nice. I let him know of the ongoing debate here. He also told me that he heard that Fripp would be in Japan next year, and of course Fripp announced that ProjeKct One may be there next year, before he was interupted by a flash. And meeting fellow ETers (in chronological order) Brian Thompson, Ed Mayall, and Marcus Reuter. What a week!! And let me mention that I almost got killed the night before the shows began. I discovered that a band called "Timescales" was playing on Sunday November 30. This was a free improv group featuring Fred Frith. So I was late getting there, and was rushing. So I looked to cross the street, and it looked clear. So I started to cross, then almost immediately heard BBEEEEEEEP!! In my haste, I had looked the wrong way (ignorant Yank). Then I got there and it was sold out. Finally, let me also say how angering it is to have the photographers ruin things for the rest of us. We were denied 2 of the 4 evenings because of a flash. The photographers took something for themselves and took something from the rest of us. Perhaps they'll look at their pictures and think about how it killed a moment. Perhaps, but probably not. Anyway, I'm still on a high from last week. And I still have 2 Soundscapes concerts to look forward to! After that.... Alan *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000371 sends (alan cohen)... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:45:30 -0800 From: massimo bracco Subject: EXCLUSIVE PREVIEW OF THE NEW KC STUDIO ALBUM Dear ETers, the great moment is arrived ! The brand new album by KC 97line-up is going to land into our ears ! It's gonna be a 6 CD BOX, entitled "CRASHMUZAK" : the cover is made of sand (and I don't mean a photograph portraing sand, but real SAND constantly moving and changing shapes in a transparent plastic clepsydra). Each CD is symbolically devoted to a different instrument in the band, but non in the sense that the music is played in turns as solo performances ; rather every instrument plays a specific character in a sort of passion drama. Specially effective is "On the Rhino side", in which Belew's guitar snorts and growls chasing the other instruments who portrait the Black Hunters. Trey Gunn chose to represent "The Forgotten Prince", the story of mysterious magical sounds born from an hermaphrodite instrument neither masculine bass, nor feminine guitar but kind of elf called Warr. Mr. Fripp plays the devilshly Hannibal the Cannibal, stomping hard on killer fuzzbox after all these years of technological prison : the suite is ironically entitled "Escape from Miditraz" The main surprise of the album is "Drumscapes rage" , in which all six members play percussive sounds/ instruments filtered thru the Frippertronics board : it's a maze of bouncing incredible sounds, that will put in discussion many known rules of the present century drumming. Another shocking experience is "Strangled by strings" , a furious monster aggression in which all six KCers play only string instruments, wailing with long distorted sustained high notes (oh boys, Bruford and Mastellotto on electric drill guitars are really dangerous !) When you think there couldn't be a higher climax, then comes "BLaSTaFaQ" : a suite in six parts at the end of every CD. The different sections were recorded in the various venues of PRoJeKT One, Two, Three, Four , Five and Six (London, NY, Nashville, San Francisco, La Havana and Peking), the notorius improvised sessions that drove crazy many KC fans around the world (mainly the ones who couldn't be there). In spite of the completely different environments and line-ups (my favorite is Fripp-Bruf-Mastellotto) the music is surprisingly a continuous crescendo of unbelievable rage and shows new unpredictable directions for the band. As a bonus, the "CRaSHMuZaK" box hosts three very special-special guests. MEL COLLINS burns hot on tenor sax in the metal-funk "Godzilla's Revenge", featuring also Adrian's best vocal performance ever. DAVID CROSS burts on violin in an extremely wild solo on "One more camel nightmare", over the diabolical 31/47th rhythm interlocked by Bruford on tuned metals and Fripp on metal tunings. Mrs. TOYAH FRIPP WILCOX shines in the magnum opus "Darker than starless", an epic ballad crescendo sang in duo with Adrian including the most touching instrumental coda of the last 20 years (Tony's Stick solo over the twin-guitars chorus theme will drive you to tears). Soon to become the major hit among all KC fans (prepare your handkerchiefs or joints, as you prefere) ; it will probably be also the next single in DGM intentions, if only Singleton manages to edit it short from the original 37 minutes (a hard task David, since every single moment of that immense song is fully essential !) This track only may be enough to deliver orgasm and hours of spirited discussion to all KC fans and ETers in particular. But the whole 6 hours and 25 minutes of music portrayed in this album sound subversive and revolutionary from first minute to end. Seems like many wellknown musicians and competitor record executives, who have heard only tiny bits of this album, are really frightened by the nuclear impact it will cause to the entire music business. DGM guarantees the 6CD box will be released directly in a Definitive-Undefinite-High Definition Multi Session CD Rom format, capable of emitting images and perfumes as well from any computer (both MAC and PC will be delighted). I tried to be the most objective that I could, but I admit I was overflown by the tremendous energy that radiates from this music. Sorry if I seemed excessive, but you should hear it to believe it. I SWEAR EVERYTHING I TOLD YOU IS TOTALLY TRUE.... ...or at least was very realistic in my dream last night. And I guarantee that I only drank a couple of white wine glasses for dinner. Maybe it's my huge hunger for brand new KC music, that made me feel this premonition. Something tells me this magical 6-BOX will not be among this Christmas presents. Maybe will be for the next year, or maybe for the next Century... Anyway, I wish to hear soon on my CD player what sometimes I hear in my head. Sorry folks, this was my way to send wishes of Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all ETers , with a special hurray for Toby the web warrior, all people at DGM and of course.... the 6 magical KC Knights of the Round Tone. THRaKByes MAX from ITALY P.S. - I add my vote for an instant release of a special priced live CD, featuring the highlights of the Projekt One improvs. (This is serious, my friends). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 08:36:54 -0500 From: Bob Sullivan Subject: Being There..... Hello ET'ers, this is my first post. Thanks 21 who cares... I remember a line from that movie where Peter Sellers as Chauncey Gardiner tells the Shirley Maclaine Character "... Eve, I like to watch...." which is what I have been doing for sometime. When I was 15 years old in 1975, I was introduced to King Crimson's Music. I tend toward going on at great length, so I will practice brevity. I will also try not to pontificate. I find it interesting to note how so many contributors emulate Mr. Fripp's writing style, wit, sarcasm, and intellect. I am no intellectual giant, and admit to also having my personality "shaped" by great, influential people, like Robert. It is good to aim high. So many things I have read in ET made me laugh and also at times get angry. I am glad to know I am not alone when it comes to "paying more than usual attention" to the music that has meant so much to me for all these years. It took several listenings to each of the first few Crimson albums I heard before the music began to grow on me. By the time I was 16, I was an avid listener and wannabe guitarist. ( I am still both.) At that time, Robert released "The Young Persons Guide to King Crimson", which was (of course) made with me in mind. I "lamented" the fact that I would never be able to see Crimson, since they had, of course, ceased to exist in 1974. I remember cursing my parents for having me in 1960. Today I feel differently, but still wish I would have been at Central Park for a performance of RED. I read the Booklet included with that album probably a dozen times. Of course I also love Genesis (1970-1976) and YES (1970-1977). Recently, I have been listening to the 4 Brian Eno albums that really matter to me AGW, HCTWJ, TTMBS and my favourite: Before and After Science. I am like a little kid: I listen over and over again for months at a time and swear I still hear new things/textures/methods. People do not understand me because of this, and I cannot explain it to them. You either get it or you dont. Or maybe I am just pretending to myself that theres more to this... Anyway, I will "close" by saying I am glad I did not meet an early demise, since I have been privileged to witness phenomenal performances by Mr. Fripp and many talented others since 1977. I have gone thru periods of idiocy, ecstasy, retardation and exponential growth. The only constant has been this music. Brevity calls...perhaps if anyone dares care (and the moderator does not see fit to filter) I will relate my personal experiences and encounters of the Fripp kind in a future post. I did want to mention though that I am one of those listeners who gets the tingling sensation on the hairs of the back of the neck during certain pieces (Starless, Epitaph, Exiles, The Night Watch as examples). I also have a story about getting whacked by Mr. Fripp on two separate occasion's 15 years apart... I am not so naieve to think that Robert would remember these encounters, but they were humorous. On the more recent, He was Disciplining me on plectrum grasping (or in my case plectrum groping) technique. The former story would take a few more lines...Thank you for your patience, and oh yeah, I will be at the 7:30 pm Soundscapes performance at NYC's "Bottom Line" this Sat 12/13/97. I will (hopefully) be at a front table with 2 ladies I love. Remind me to mention that Vinyl was magic because....(Fill in the Blank). Peace. (Or not, if you are so disposed.). -The not so Young Person. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 23:15:31 -0500 (EST) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Music & Monologue "I would prefer it if Elephant Talk did not exist" was only one of the many interesting things Mr. Fripp said during his nearly one hour impromptu monologue that closed his solo performance at the Birchmere this evening. Overall, an enjoyable evening. Fripp's production of soundscapes is fascinating, and it is always a treat to hear a "classic" Frippian guitar line inserted into the newer washes of sounds he creates with all of his equipment. I'm sure others will fill in the details. Folks at other stops on the tour might want to wish for a technical difficulty, since it was the failure of some of Fripp's equipment that led to so much talking in the first place. Justin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:46:53 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: Fripp,Boston, HOB, 12/16/97 Dave Dowling says: >I emailed DMG to see what was up with the Fripp Boston date, here's the >deal: >12/16 9pm House of Blues, Cambridge $15 >I've got my tickets. >Shall we have an Elephant Party? There you have it the New England ET's (NEET) are trying to: 1. Organize a contingent of people to gather for a sitting before the show. 2. The intent of this is to provide some time to "do nothing" in preparation for the show so as to enhance the possibility of "being there" during the show. 3. Possibly meet after the show for disccusion/socializing. If people wish to commit to meeting and sitting prior to the show, I'll try to suss out a locations where that can happen. Please email me with your responses ASAP. If anyone knows of a location (college,church, some place not to busy) near HOB then please mail me or call 401-392-0463. Tickets may be aquired from the HOB box office 617-497-2229 - Martin PS: Anyone interested in becoming a NEET member may also respond. <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> Martin G. Bradburn Heartlab Inc <> <> Senior Database Engineer 101 Airport Rd <> <> mgb at heartlab dot com Westerly, RI 02891<> <> mgb at brainiac dot com(home) (401) 596-0592 <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> 'Music is the architecture of silence' <> <> - Guitar Craft Aphorism <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:51:54 EST From: "Kevin Rowan" Subject: Mr. Fripp at the Birchmere Hello all. There are three things I'd like to touch on and I'll make all as brief as possible. 1) I recently picked up Brian Eno's Another Green World and found it thoroughly enjoying. Mr. Fripp plays guitar on a few of the tracks including one called St. Elmo's Fire. Mr. Fripp is masterful in this song. His playing is some of the best I've ever heard. I'm sure many of you already know this but for those of you who don't you really owe it to yourself to pick up this excellent piece of music. 2) I too have had strange looks from people wondering who King Crimson was. And most of the people who do know are men. So imagine my surprise when I mentioned to a female coworker of mine that Mr. Fripp was going to play at the Birchmere in Arlington, VA. Not only had she heard of him but she knew what Frippertronics was. Wow! So we went last night (12/10) and... 3)...were treated to a show that I will never forget. The show was scheduled to start at 7:30, but when we got there at 6:50 he had already started. At 7:30 he stopped briefly to introduce his sister who was in the audience. "Gosh," I thought, "he spoke to the audience and even made a few jokes". Not his usual way of doing things (I saw him a few years ago for a similar performance and he said nothing which I was expecting and which is definitely his prerogative). He did his soundscapes for about and hour and a half then, a guess because he enjoyed the enthusiasm of the audience, stopped, set up a mic, and took questions from the audience and talked to us for about an hour! He talked about his G3 performance in San Antonio, which he said was the most rewarding concert performance of his career, read a review of it from a Dallas paper; told of the improve he, Levin, Bruford, and Trey Gunn did at the Jazz Club in London, and read a review of that from the London Times. The audience hung on his every word. He is extremely eloquent and surprisingly humble at times. He makes no apologies for the way he is as for as refusing photos and autographs and gave a very sound reason why. I was exhilarated by the whole performance as was my friend. I also feel a wall has been knocked down as far as his stage presence goes. It's hard to put into words. I hope he continues this trend with the audience. Maybe then you'll feel the way I do. Kevin Rowan Washington, DC ------------------------------ From: "Bill duhigg" Subject: To trade: LoG/Fripp & KC 7" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:31:35 -0500 Anyone interested in the following? --The League of Gentlemen: Heptaparaparshinokh(2:06)/Robert Fripp: Marriagemuzik (11:45) Editions EG 7" EGEDS1, No PS Ex condition, more noise on the b-side because it is rather compactly mastered. --King Crimson: Heartbeat(3:54)/(Excerpt from) Requiem(2:32) EG 7" EGO 6, PS Disc & PS in Ex condition Will make them the core of a trade for a US copy of "Night Watch" when it is released. Thanks, Bill in Ohio duhigg at worldnet dot att dot net ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #443 ********************************