Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #441 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 441 Saturday, 6 December 1997 Today's Topics: Re: Zappa and Crimson Adrian belew RE: From left field....... Info Request for Fripp at Painted Bride, Dec 12 and 13 KC remasters (again) Birchmere Sleepless on PA The Noise a response Re: Zappa and Crimson Fireballet Feels good to him! Academian Broo-Ha-Ha Zappa / Crimson Revisited Hackett & Improv a riddle Re: Comparing members & Bootlegging Re: Elephant Talk Digest #440 Sluggo Thank you's x2 for Thursday's ProjeKt One Lady or the Tiger LP... Enhanced "Night Watch"? ProjecKt Uno, serialism, other stuff zappa/crimson ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Clive Backham Subject: Re: Zappa and Crimson Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:40:01 -0000 In ET #440, CWA notes that many Crimson fans have 10 or more Zappa albums, and makes the connection that many Crimson fans are also Zappa fans. I suppose in general this is probably true, but the evidence does not necessarily support such a conclusion. There is more than one reason for owning alot of a particular artist's work. I have lots of Crimson albums because the vast majority of the band's output is of a high standard and worth listening to. I have lots of Zappa albums because he occasionally dishes up some phenomenal music that I can't be without, but you need to trawl through a lot of dreck to find it. Clive Backham Capita Business Services Ltd. (+44) 1442 872121 clive at capita dot nildram dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 14:30:15 -0800 From: fgiuffre at mbox dot vol dot it Organization: ANIE TLC Subject: Adrian belew Hi elephnts! I have an Umplayed copy ( because I received it wrongly two times)of ADRIAN BELEW - THE ACOUSTIC ADRIAN BELEW 1993 DGM white pictured CD with white plastic case. I will sell it for 30.000 italian lire, 30 DM or =A310 (incl. p&p for Europe), or I can swap it ( + some money) for Jethro Tull - Watchers on the storm. Bye Franco Giuffr=E8 - Italy ------------------------------ From: Curt Salada Subject: RE: From left field....... Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:49:38 -0500 Selections from ET #440 ... > From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:10:40 -0500 > Subject: From left field....... > > I often find that some of the people who shout the loudest don't > listen > very well. > Really? I often find that some of the people who shout the loudest have little to say. On that note ... > As someone from a family of pro musicians in NYC, I've > had the chance to hear types of music on a regular basis that i bet > few > others get a chance to hear (I mean, how may time have YOU seen the > opera > Wozzeck performed?) Make no mistake: I value my own opinion when it > comes > to music and sound. > Hey, no mistake made. You're coming through loud and clear. > Quit having > such a shitfit every time someone writes something you think you > disagree > with. Let's face it. It really ain't all that important, after all! > res ipsa loquitur -- it speaks for itself Curt Salada ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 17:37:58 -0500 (EST) From: Karl Myers Subject: Info Request for Fripp at Painted Bride, Dec 12 and 13 Hello- I am writing the list with a request for information about Robert Fripp's performances at the Painted Bride Arts Centre in Philadelphia on December 12 and 13. I would like to know: a) What is the number to call for ticket ordering/information? b) What is/are the ticket price(s)? c) Where is the Painted Bride? d) How many seats are in the Centre? Any and all information would be very helpful. Personal replies please, don't want to clog the list. Thanks- Karl Myers ------------------------------ From: David MacLennan Subject: KC remasters (again) Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:50:19 +1300 In ET#438, Scaarge at aol dot com argued that the proposed '98 KC remasters should not include bonus tracks because "these albums have held up as well as they have because they are not simply collections of songs, but organic wholes." I find this argument a weak one, and the analogy of adding "bonus Apostles" to The Last Supper specious. While I would definitely agree that the albums are organic wholes, the addition of extra tracks would not change this. If you didn't want to hear the extra tracks when you listened to the album, all you would have to do is NOT PLAY THEM! Simple, huh? All I want is to be given the option of hearing the extra tracks. Whether or not I chose to listen to them every time I play the album would be my decision at the time. (BTW, I agree with the comment about the Epitaph painting reminding one of early Genesis covers. That's the first thing that struck me when I saw it.) David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:31:42 -0800 From: Mark Chapman Subject: Birchmere Hope this post gets published in time...anyone interested in meeting up early to converse about 'Things KC/Fripp' at the Birchmere/Alexandria concert, please feel free to contact me. Thanks. Chaps ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 97 08:06:38 UT From: "Jonathan Korein" Subject: Sleepless on PA At a Medeski, Martin and Wood show, which I recently saw, what should play during the intermission but Sleepless and a fragment of Industry? If only they could have picked better KC... but beggars can't be choosers. MMW was good. I couldn't see the whole show, Unfortunately, because it was a school night. MMW are like Jazz-Funk-Freeform. I personally didn't like the spastic freeform Stuff but if you like ThrakAttak you'd probably like that aspect of the Multi-faceted gem which is MMW. The line-up is bass, drums and keyboard. The keyboardist has an organ, a piano, a rhodes, a really-ugly-sounding-wah-distorted thing, and the KC favorite, the mellotron. Now and then he sounds a little like Emerson, which is good news for all you ELP nuts. I highly recommend the album "Shack-man". Killer grooves. These guys are so tight. They slip in and out of sync beautifully on "Henduck" and change the tempo with complete control on "Bubblehouse". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:37:25 -0500 From: Darren Franck Subject: The Noise I am relatively new to ET and this is my first post, but I know enough to refrain from listing my favorite bands/tingles/etc. I would like to know how to get a hold of KC's VHS release of "The Noise (Las Frejas)" and also "Bruford and the Beat". I'm an intense KC fan and a novice drummer, which explains why I'm searching for these two. I have two different record stores (who claim they can get a hold of anything) searching for it, but I'm afraid their efforts will fall short. Could anyone enlighten me to the status/availability of these videos? Suzanne from Philadelphia (ET 438): >Anyways, I love the album. Bruford never disappoints me, be it electric >drumming with Earthworks or acoustic drumming with this album. Towner and >Gomez are equally enjoyable. I look forward to hearing any one else's >comments. I too loved this album...a truly great listen. But I think it lacks the qualities that will make it a classic. In other words, it lacks the emotional intensity of SABB, Miles in the Sky, Thrak, or The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. Still, BB, Gomez, and Towner kick all kinds of ass. An ET virgin no more, Darren ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 13:41:12 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: a response Emory wrote in ET 440 > I often find that some of the people who shout the loudest don't listen > very well. Daniel is no exception here: then wrote: > One thing that i think has become more or less clear is that we probably > can not stop bootlegging. Unfortunately, Daniel seems to picture > bootleggers as only members of the audience who sneak in taperecorders. A > lot of bootlegging is done by the in-house sound guys or others with > high-access Had you been reading, you would have noted that I did mention bootlegging by the sound crew several digests back. > As for overestimating my position as a fan, I would like to point out that > Thrakattak was itself in part a response to requests made here. Fripp seems > to listen at times. Conceded. My post, the one to which you respond here, made it to ET a couple of digests late, and my notion that DGM is unconcerned was sufficiently squelched by others before my original post ever made it to the digest readers. > As someone from a family of pro musicians in NYC, Not just musicians, but PRO musicians, and not just anywhere, but in NYC. Color me impressed. Now serving NYC pro musician # 264,956. > I've > had the chance to hear types of music on a regular basis that i bet few > others get a chance to hear (I mean, how may time have YOU seen the opera > Wozzeck performed?) Yes, but how many times have you performed it? And as long as we are comparing the sizes of our members, how many times have you recorded Charles Dodge, the Tibetan Monks of the Drepung Monastery, Orpheus, Kronos, Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra, etc.? The musical experience of ET readers varies widely and nearly everyone has a meaningful contribution to make, so lets not make any further issue of that. > Quit having > such a shitfit every time someone writes something you think you disagree > with. Let's face it. It really ain't all that important, after all! > -Emory I would agree that my posts ain't important at all, but the issue of bootlegging is important in spite of the fact that bootleg listeners on this list seem to be impervious to reason and ethics. Nevertheless, consider my extended rant on bootlegging concluded. Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham AL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:45:23 -0500 From: jmc at sdr dot utias dot utoronto dot ca (James MacKenzie Crawford) Subject: Re: Zappa and Crimson This message caught my eye in the latest E-T from Chris (CWA ): > The recent "more than 10 copies thread", as brief as it was (thanks > so much Toby...that one could have been a nightmare) more or less confirmed > something that I'd suspected for a long time: namely, King Crimson fans (or > at least ET'ers) tend in a large proportion to be Frank Zappa fans as well. I too have noticed this, particularly since I exhibit the same traits as far as musical preferences go. Further, imagine my surprise when one the the big guitar magazines published an article about a year ago which focused on the "Outsiders" of the world of guitar. The actual publication escapes me, but if you would like the reference information, contact me privately because I still have it at home. It has also been mentioned here on ET. The three main foci were Fripp, Zappa, and Branca - all favourites of mine. Included in subarticles were features on guitarists who have worked with and been influenced by the big three. For Crimson, the CGT trio were featured, and Adrian Belew was cast as a product of the Zappa and Fripp schools. This magazine put the whole question in perspective for me - ie, the appoach of setting aside all the standards and reinventing from a more primative level. I think this is the crux of the matter. If executed well (and few have that ability), it leaves more to digest for the listener, and thus for those of us who actually listen and strive to understand, is more fulfilling. For any of those who expressed a keen interest in Fripp and Zappa from that ill-fated top 10 thread, if you find any Glenn Branca on discount somewhere, especially Symphonies No. 6 or 9, these are good starting points and might be of interest. Best to do some reading on his work first (search the web) just to be prepared for what awaits you. It is not conventional. Of the three "Outsiders", Glenn Branca is by far the furthest removed from commercial relevance, so sometimes one needs that extra push to discover what one seeks. Peace, James C. ------------------------------ From: "Christopher A. Jepson" Subject: Fireballet Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:14:03 -0500 (EST) Erwin Bush in #440 mentioned Fireballet's _Night on Bald Mountain_ ... Yes, I remember that. I got a cutout copy sometime in the mid-70's, when I was a callow college youth just starting my LP collection... the Ian McDonald connection was one factor that led me to give it a try. I found it rather on the insipid side ... sold it years ago. -- CJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 15:39:36 -0500 From: Marc Galarneau Subject: Feels good to him! Hello ETers, i just baught recently the first Bruford solo record +Feels Good To Me;. Maybe it feels good to him but it sounds good to me! I wanted your attention, because i was woundering if there was other Bruford records that i should not miss? Sure i could go crazy and buy any of his records but i would prefer some advice from people who really know music!! If you know what i mean? There is so many crap these days! I dont understand how people cant get bored of hearing the same 4/4 songs with the same chords played over and over again. Thank god there is progressive rock! Anyway please give me some suggestions!! Thanks Marc Galarneau fz2000 at usa dot net ------------------------------ From: "Stephen P. Goodman" Subject: Academian Broo-Ha-Ha Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:39:40 -0800 >tim w wrote: >>Lastly, as a relative newbie to this list, I :have been mildly surprised to >>see so little discussion of the body of :Gurdjieffian work which has so >>clearly influenced Mr Fripp, presumably :since his days at Sherborne. "Matt George" opined: >I'm glad it was mentioned too. Both Bennett and Gurdjieff are examples of >hybrid pseudo-mystics who have (wittingly or unwittingly) drawn from >several sources to propagate their charlatanism. I can only imagine that the alleged Mr. George either intended to start a firefight with such critical (yet unsubstantive) prose, or perhaps follows one of those 3rd generation 'systems' that heavily borrows from Gurdjieff and other 'Western philosophers', or perhaps has succumbed to the trap of 'modern' psychology. To address a specific statement, though, it's not been such a 'long time since Sherborne', as evidenced by the ongoing relationship RF has had with them. Second, given that the chief efforts of those who study Gurdjieff/Bennett/et. al. are NOT to convert others to their belief system, it is not an ongoing activity to "witness" such belief, but rather apply it as one goes. The medium - the Work - would be the message, for those requiring one. And of course there is the numbers of books, wrongly assigned to the Occult section in your library, but also available through a number of sources now. (I've got some links to such publications on my web page, via Amazon actually, if you care to look). I don't think vomiting on anyone's belief process helps anyone, especially the one doing the 'power booting'. Stephen Goodman * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios EarthLight Productions * Get the Loop Of The Week Free! ------------------------------ From: Keith Messier Subject: Zappa / Crimson Revisited Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:06:46 -0500 Organization: Putnam Investments I'd like to respond to Chris' post in ET440 regarding the Zappa / Crimson fan topic. I am a fan of both artists' music, and I have been for years. I don't know Frank or Robert well enough to make a statement regarding their musical philosophies; my intention here is only to offer a critical listener's perspective. I think of music as a language, an art form capable of expressing the otherwise inexpressible and communicating that to the listener. As listeners, we pick up those musical dialogues which resonate within us, which move us, which we understand or appreciate. In some cases it's easy to point out what moves us - we like the sound of a harpsichord or the tone of a tube-amplified guitar. In fact, it's probably safe to go further and say that we like what's done with those instruments. You may like Led Zeppelin but hate Nirvana, or vise-versa. Same instruments (guitar, bass, drums and vocals), different approach. As Chris points out, Frank Zappa and Robert Fripp - and I'll go further by including their respective bands on the whole - also share some fundamental elements. Each band is led by a virtuoso guitarist and uses similar instrumentation (for the most part), each recorded during the same time frame (1960's to 1990's), and each can be found in the same section of your friendly neighborhood record store. On the surface it seems that's where the similarities end. But I'd be willing to bet that there's something about Zappa's drive to write zany, off-beat music which is also driving Fripp to create his more serious and thoughtful music. I think there's something similar in their philosophies or motivations that listeners unconsciously pick up. If you thrive off of their motivations, if you connect with their ideology in some way, chances are that you're going to be moved by their music. What I find most moving about their music is that each has brought to my ears a sound and style that is original, unpredictable and challenging. By original I mean that it is useless to describe either artist in terms of other artists - you have to hear it to know it. By unpredictable I mean that no one song follow a standard formula; or if it does, there is something fresh added to it to make it personal - a musical fingerprint, so to speak. And by challenging I mean that it refuses to accept tradition as anything more than a jumping off point (e.g., Why not play a Stairway to Heaven solo on horns?). Oh, and there's something else: Level of Musicianship. One thing you can always expect from Frank Zappa and King Crimson is a consistently high-quality performance, in the studio and on the stage. These are musicians' musicians you're hearing; there's nothing second-rate. These people know exactly what they're doing, right down to every string squeak and every tambourine rattle. (Well, maybe not EVERY string squeak, but let's not split hairs.) Like Chris, I am also interested in hearing what others think about this. I'd love to hear from others either through this newsletter or by email (Keith_Messier at putnaminv dot com). ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Hackett & Improv Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:01:20 -0500 I can't entirely agree with those who found Steve Hackett's WATCHER OF THE SKIES/GENESIS REVISITED unworthy. The title track itself is well worth listening to - true to the spirit of the original - and hearing John Wetton doing Peter's vocals is rewarding. The selection of material is uneven (but tells us something about Hackett, I guess), and anyone expecting to hear anything memorable from Ian McDonald (who appears all but anonymously on one track) will be disappointed. But, hey, it cuts all the post-Hackett Genesis releases! In 440, Daniel Farris agrees with James Beard that "recording it and boshing it out on a CD kind of takes away from the unique experience of actually being there." I find it impossible to agree with or even empathize with this point of view - especially when it is being applied to a unique improvisitatory performance like ProjeKCt One (or Two). The idea that if you're there a recording released later will detract from the experience (rather than augmenting or restimulating it) is one I don't understand or agree with - but is, I guess, a subjective thing. But the idea of denying the experience (vicarious) to all those who weren't there is selfish at best. I certainly hope it was/will be recorded - if, for no other reason, to give those who performed the music a chance to hear it more objectively and sort out their own reactions to it. (After all, new directions are being sought through these performances.) As someone who has performed a lot of completely improvised music over the past couple of decades (some "jams," some more ambitious), I know that I always look forward to the playback afterwards. I want to hear how it "objectively" sounded, rather than the perspective I had during the performance. Then, I was concentrating on what I was doing and what I was hearing at the time from the others. In playback, I can hear how it all fit together (or failed to), and I often hear bits (from others) that I missed at the time. "Wow! Was that you?" It's usually a good time. Daniel also brings up a point I was asking about (unsuccessfully) last summer: the nature of the improvisation in the Crimson group(s). His conversation with Davey Williams concerning "a lot of improv players [who] had a few (or even many) signature licks on the menu and were lofting them out, as rehearsed, where appropriate" strikes a familiar chord with me. (Not me, though - I haven't enough "rehearsed licks" to matter.) This is a good description of the way many jazz musicians work. Indeed, it's inevitable when you play the same (general) material every night, with the same improv solos. Is this in fact "the true nature of improvisation"? It is for some, I'm sure. (I've met musicians who play brilliantly - from written music. And can't improvise at all.) I'd like to see more discussion here about the nature of improvisation - and I'd love to see what Mr. Fripp has to say on the subject! (But I'm unwilling to provoke him with something obnoxious....) --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 17:07:58 -0500 From: "Marc I Roemer" Subject: a riddle 1. As a philosopher, Gurdjieff was unthinkabley bad. 2. As a poet, Matt George is even worse. ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:14:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Comparing members & Bootlegging Although you seemed to have missed my point here, I would say that if you're getting these kinds of gigs, then you've got ears. Your opinion, therefore, requires at least some respect: Yes, but how many times have you performed it? And as long as we are comparing the sizes of our members, how many times have you recorded Charles Dodge, the Tibetan Monks of the Drepung Monastery, Orpheus, Kronos, Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra, etc.? Actually, my father is a musician at the metropolitan opera, and the brothers are Jazz musicians. My mother (trained at eastman) was a trumpet player. I say this not to (necessarily) compare members, but to point out that my opinion, like yours, matters (in my case, because I believe i have really learned to listen). I do not kid myself about it being import to KC, however (thank God--I doubt I could improve either their music or other processes in any real way). But as for the bootleg comments, i feel like you misunderstood me. Actually, what i really felt was that you were using my posts to make more general statements about bootlegging, but in the process rendered the post in a light in which it was not intended (nor belonged, i don't think). Basically, I agree with the strong sentiments you have expressed concerning the economics of bootlegging. I did, however, want to point out that bootlegging does not always seem to be inherently evil in its intent, and at times seems to have performed important functions (such as in the case of Pandit Pran Nath). Those things being said, it would seem reasonable to yes continue to pursue the worst offenders and at least try to stop bootleggers (though I think frisking is probably going too far), but also to realize that these efforts can probably only do so much (kind of like the illegalization of prositution). If these realities are accepted, then some new approaches are probably in order. The recent multiple live releases are clearly in part a response to this. Another is to periodically make some quasi-official releases available. This approach has the two-fold benefit of taking a lot of the profit out of bootlegging, as well as removing the temptation for some to try to catch the experience in a taperecorder ("hey...why bother. King crimson eventually releases all this stuff"). Respectfully, -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:30:48 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #440 >From: "Fred Rogers" >Subject: k.c. collectables (Mr.) Fred Rogers listening to King Crimson? Boy, do I have a weird image in my head right now.... >From: Erwin Bush > >Now if I can only find that half-remembered interview with Peter Gabriel >(made during the GENESIS Foxtrot era) it which he identified ITCOTCK as the >reason for the radical change in GENESIS between "From Genesis to >Revelations" and "Trespass", and called the album a logical evolution from >"Sgt. Pepper..." >From Armando Gallo's "Genesis: I Know What I Like": [Quote from some promoter named David Stopps] "...I remember talking to them [Genesis] about King Crimson, because they were a big influence for Genesis. I remember them saying that they had the album [ITCOTCK], and would listen to it all together, over and over again for about six hours in the cottage, they couldn't believe how good it was." "Richard [McPhail, early Genesis crony] was the first person we had known who had a stereo set, and the first person who played us Family and King Crimson, so they were a big influence," confirms Peter [Gabriel]. "Also people like Procul [sic] Harum, an American band called SRC, Jeff Beck...these were all Richard's taste." "'Certainly," Ant [Phillips] told me, "I will always remember listening to the first King Crimson album. It was pinned against the wall at the cottage for months." "After we moved to the cottage, we became very insular," said Tony [Banks]. "I would say that Court of the Crimson King was the last album that we really listened to, because after that period we were playing on the road, and we didn't listen to anyone, really...." Thought the above might be illuminating. As for the Crimson/Zappa intersection, is that so surprising?? However, I wouldn't be surprised if KC fans strongly favor a certain subset of Zappa's massive catalog, i.e. the instrumental-dazzle albums and not so much the satirical/lyric-focused albums. Personally, I guess I'm in both camps. I like most everything between Freak Out and The Grand Wazoo (often satirical, usually songwriting-focused) and little except the "composed," instrumental-based ensemble stuff from then on (the symphonic records, Sleep Dirt, Studio Tan, etc.). Zappa's guitar-solo sorts of albums don't interest me much, yet I have a feeling this is where a lot of ETers focus their attention. And there probably aren't too many people here deeply into the wacky, Dr. Demento-type releases, I suspect. I'm not sure this paragraph really went anywhere. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 18:04:16 -0600 (CST) From: cain joren reid Subject: Sluggo Anyone who was interested with Mike Keneally's playing with Fripp on the G3 tour may like to know that his latest album, "Sluggo!" has just been released. It's extremely good-I'd recommend it to any Crimson fan (although it doesn't sound like them-just go check it out). He's got a web page: moosenet.com (I believe), and it's available there, as well as his G3 tour diaries!! Very cool. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:02:24 +0000 From: "paulp at porkpie dot demon dot co dot uk" Subject: Thank you's x2 for Thursday's ProjeKt One First thank you to Robert, Tony, Bill and Trey for a great evening of cool music last night. Others have already posted "reviews" so there's no need for me to do the same. I tried to describe the gig to work colleagues (some of whom have even heard of KC) and I guess Roberts description of the "ProjeKt" series of /groups/ as Krimson's R&D department fitted the bill. As with any R&D department there bits which left you cold and others which just took your breath away. If you hadn't guessed from the above Robert spoke to us from the stage last night, which was his own admission the first time he had done so for thirteen and a half years. Which brings me to the second thank you of this posting. Having been warned over the PA that photgraphy was forbidden some complete cretin took it upon themself to take Roberts picture while he was talking to us. Which was a pity as Robert stopped immediately and returned to his seat. Double pity because he was being witty, informative and a congenial host. SO therefore a BIG thank you to the papparazi bigot who took the photo. I hope you feel really good about it. Thanks. And apologies to Robert from the /ordinary/ audient who wanted you to carry on speaking but appreciated why you couldn't. There is a coherent plan in the universe, though I don't know what it is a plan for. - Fred Hoyle ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:33:18 -0500 (EST) From: Martin Kennedy Subject: Lady or the Tiger LP... I have an LP copy of Lady or the Tiger that I need to sell, if anyone out there is interested. Please reply to me privately through e-mail... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 01:06:23 -0500 From: Steve Smith Subject: Enhanced "Night Watch"? I've *got* a PC with a CD-ROM drive. I've *got* Windows 95. And I've *got* a European copy of "The Night Watch" thanks to a friend in Wales. And I'm *relatively* bright, to boot. So why can't I figure out how to access these multimedia files on my computer? The only thing that happens when I stick disc 2 in the CD-ROM drive is it plays the music. And when I check in Windows Explorer, all it shows me is the music tracks. Help! Private responses welcome if Toby prefers it that way. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 01:31:37 CST From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" Subject: ProjecKt Uno, serialism, other stuff Still dripping with envy at those damn Brits....heh heh. Anyway, after reading the initial reviews of the Jazz Cafe gigs I am more interested than ever in hearing this stuff. Maybe DGM can select some highlights from the various ProjeKts after they've all run their course and stick thoseon a CD or three. I'd buy before they put it in the trucks, I think ;) Anyway, there was some speculation that the ProjeKts, when playing compositions (as opposed to pure improv) would use 20th century classical techniques, in particular serialism. Any comments? At Toby's recommendation I meandered over to http://web.dbtech.net/~rhino/corner.htm....Adrian mentions PROJEkT Two...apparently they'll play as both a string trio AND as a "traditional" power trio? (i.e., drums-bass-guitar)...that should be interesting. When Adrian's on drums, Fripp will get to go nuts apparently, by the way Adrain describes it...Fripp's kind of been in the background with KC since Discipline; maybe this mode of PROJEkT Two will feature Fripp wailing away like he did with the 73-74 band. Wouldn't that be fun? What's this Nashville Extravaganza by the way? Sounds like fun, especially since I live in St. Louis so I can actually go to it. =) Speaking of Belew's site....he mentions that the Red Monarch "is working towards a new record but is going at it in a different way. The concern is that the band take a giant step forward as we did with the 1981 band." Whoa....this is the first I've heard of this....so as I understand it, once the ProjeKts have run their course (how many are planned so far?) the entire sextet (sextet? maybe they'll shuffle the lineup around again) will come back together and initiate what is apparently KC's fifth main phase? (69-72, 73-74, 81-84, 95-96) What do the assembled masses think here? This could be a distinct break, as with the '74 to '81 transition, or it could be an important refinement within a larger phase, such as from LTIA to SABB, or Poseidon to Lizard....food for thought. Bon appetit. ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 00:03:43 -0800 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: zappa/crimson The similarity (I think) has to do with the overall "cerebral" nature of the music. In fact, Yes, Genesis, KC, Zappa...all could be said to be cerebral in nature. There are many types of music fans, and even more types of music consumers...however, most people I know who have had difficulty enjoying Zappa, KC, Genesis, etc. felt that way because of this intellectualized approach. I can certainly understand this. I would say it's inarguable that Zappa/KC are more cerebral than emotional (soulful). This is not to say their music doesn't have soul, but it's shrouded in musical intricacy and complexity. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #441 ********************************