Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #439 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 439 Saturday, 29 November 1997 Today's Topics: Possible Possible Productions #ElephantTalk IRC Chat Upcoming Submitting content for ET Web Fripp's nonencounter Eno+Byrne, and enhanced NightWatch 1980s videos out? Feedback, Fans & Sleevenotes Earthbound, 80s production, etc Earthbound Bashing - USA Up For Grabs A blind date with ProjeKCt One King Crimson posters and other things Elephant Talkie? Hall,McDonald,YPG on CD/the other LOG KC Videos *Not* recording PROJEkCT ONE in London Fripp in NYC Projekt(X) Quasi-official Bootlegs? Fripp is as Fripp does. OpTIoN 3 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl IRC: Regular get-togethers at #ElephantTalk on Undernet Sundays at Noon PST / 3pm EST / 8pm GMT Mondays at 6pm PST / 9pm EST / 2am GMT THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- ********************************************************************** TOP TIP: Send your posts *only* to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. Posts sent to any other address will never make it to ET! ********************************************************************** Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:02:07 -0500 (EST) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Possible Possible Productions #ElephantTalk IRC Chat Upcoming Amy from Possible Productions has agreed to join us in an upcoming IRC chat on the #ElephantTalk channel (tentatively for Monday Dec 8th). If you are interested in asking questions concerning the PossProd/DGM catalog or upcoming releases this should be a great time to do so. If you are not familiar with IRC hurl your url to http://www.mirc.co.uk/ where you can get all the info you need plus free software to access the IRC servers. ET chat times and server details can be found at ET Web. Note: we are doing this PossProd chat not as an endorsement for DGM, although we are obviously big supporters, but because we think ETers would be interested. As soon as we finalize the chat date (remember the 8th is only tentative), I will post it to ET. Cheers, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:10:31 -0500 (EST) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Submitting content for ET Web Dear ETers, Due to time constraints I generally don't have time to scan the ET newsletter for items that relate to new content for the ET Web site. So if you have something you'd like me to add or update at ET Web, please email me directly to insure I get the info. Thanks! Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:40:59 -0800 From: Herb Heinz Subject: Fripp's nonencounter Responding to Auntie Gail's post about Fripp/artist encounters. I too have been thinking about this a lot, both as a fan and as an artist. I can think of a few reasons why I am interested in interacting with artists whose work I admire. Once reason is to try to impress them. This is an attempt at ego gratification on my part - I want this person whom I admire to think I'm smart of talented or thoughtful. Another reason is to find out more about the person, the gawk factor. Like a movie star or any famous person, we feel we have a relationship with the artists we admire. But we only see a part of their personality, the part they present publicly. It can be fascinating to find out how they behave "behind the scenes." Another reason is to learn something, with the artist functioning esssentially as a teacher. Well thought out questions posed to someone weadmire can often yield informative responses. Another, perhaps more positive reason is to give the artist feedback - essentially to try to influence them or their future work. We all suport the work we think is good, but there is only so much input an audience member can have by buying a record or clapping at a concert. It's like the difference between just voting and writing your politician. (I would never expect to tell an artist what to do - but I value an opportunity to tell them what I find interesting in their work, partially in the hopes of encouraging them to do more of the work I appreciate.) As an artist I certainly value thoughtful feedback of this kind. So this type of interaction could potentially be "good" for the artist as well as for the audience member. I would appreciate Fripp's comments on this. What does Fripp expect or wish for in an encounter with an audience member? Does he wish to avoid these entirely or does he see positive aspect to them? -- Herb Heinz herb at isproductions dot com http://www.isproductions.com/herb ------------------------------ From: Tim Meadowcroft Subject: Eno+Byrne, and enhanced NightWatch Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:18:00 -0000 >8) Around 1981 a buddy of mine recorded me a song with RF that had the >singer/talker doing an exorcism. Was this with ENO ? It's from Eno+David Byrne, "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" - just buy it !! >heard the bootlegs, only S&BB), I was very surprised to learn that the >second CD is "enhanced" - it has basically the same material as the DGM web [snip] > I have a burning question, though. What is the piece of music that is >sampled on the opening screen? It almost sounds like new, unreleased >improv-style Crimson, but perhaps not. It doesn't seem to be duplicated as >a sample from any of the other items in the catalog. Any ideas? > I asked the wife (who did the DGM web site and the enhanced CDs - have you looked at Tony Levin's "From the Caves of The Iron Mountain" with your computer), and she says: "The opening sound is a random track from the other samples on the disk. The albums in the catalogue have a number of sampled sounds look at the track numbers, if they're coloured (red or blue, but the colour's quite subtle) there's a sample. Click on the number to play the sample." Mail her if you want, she, and her team, are usually happy to get feedback sam dot harvey at abbey-road dot com See you all at the Jazz Cafe... Tim // tim at compansr dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ From: David MacLennan Subject: 1980s videos out? Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:56:26 +1300 Someone in a recent post wrote that he/she had read on the DGM website that the two 1980s-era KC videos have now been re-released by DGM. I knew they were scheduled, but have heard nothing more. Would someone in the know (e.g. at DGM) care to confirm or deny this? Re the thread about ETers who have more than ten albums by other artists, my list of such artists would include Peter Hammill, Yes, Keith Jarrett, Miles Davis, Soft Machine, David Bowie, Gentle Giant, Cabaret Voltaire, Can, Eno, Lou Reed/VU, Pink Floyd, Wire. And I would like to leap to the defence of the much-maligned "Earthbound". Sure, the recording quality is pretty bad, but there's some amazing playing on this, and the version of "Schizoid Man" is my favourite extant version. I really do hope the once-promised "Earthbound 2" sees the light of day. And a better record for clearing a party of unwanted guests in under five minutes has yet to be made! When "Earthbound" his the shops here in NZ in 1973 I had the proprietor of the record shop I frequented play the thing in the shop on a busy Thursday night. After about five minutes he was begging me to buy it so he could take it off!! Finally, I agree with the sentiments one poster expressed re the "Genesis Revisited" album. I had a listen to this and was very disappointed. The "new" versions add little, if anything, to the originals, and Hackett is one lousy singer, even if he is a fine guitarist. When it comes to Hackett albums I'll stick with "Voyage of the Acolyte", one of my ten all-time favourite prog releases. David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:14:32 +0000 From: Sid Smith Subject: Feedback, Fans & Sleevenotes In et 438 Daniel Farris said "First, I do not get the impression that DGM and Fripp are interested in feedback or advice from the fan base." Well, I can't really agree with you Daniel. Remember Thrakattak came into being in part from comments from fans expressing the view that the world could take a little more KC improv. I would also say that at all three of the playback events I've been lucky enough to attend this year, DGM staff have been very interested in the comments and views that fans have about potential releases. Not only was a questionnaire circulated asking people what kinds of things they would be interested in seeing released but we were encouraged by RF to complete this form so that they could gauge what kinds of things people were interested in. Regarding Daniel's general point about the excesses of fandom, I would say that all of us are guilty of hubris from time to time. Our enthusiasm clouds our judgement and we get arrogant and possibly insolent (re Fripp's 'tude). These things happen. We have to be big enough to make allowances. I wouldn't presume to think that KC / RF / DGM have to listen to anything I have to say. However, I've a right to express an opinion and a view and as long as this is done politely and considerately (i.e. the right place at the right time and in an appropriate way) then everyone's happy. No ? Finally on the topic of Remasters, earlier this year I put a post on Et which suggested an idea for some kind of definitive edition sleeve notes to accompany the existing KC EG / Virgin back catalogue at least from 69' - 74 initially. At the time of writing the idea of remasters (with or without bonus tracks) wasn't in the air. It seems to me that if DGM do remaster without updating sleeve notes or adding bonus tracks then they could release a compromise booklet or series of inserts. If kept to a gatefold CD booklet gatefold, it could easily slip into the existing cases. However a more deluxe package could offer a slipover case for the entire CD ala the early editions of The First Day by Fripp and Sylvian. The Definitive Editions Collectors Sleeve Notes Series could consist of some or all of the following; 1. Extracts of Fripp's journal of the day providing some pointers as to how the music had come together. (Here I'm thinking of Fripp's comments regarding the Discipline rehearsals) 2. A list of the order in which recording took place - times, dates who did what, etc. (This could done in the style of Mark Lewisohn's superb "Complete Beatles Recordings" book albeit in a much truncated form) 3. Some indication as to which takes were finally used on the finished albums. Any other interesting points of trivia, humour (i.e. Boz Burrell singing into a fire bucket) or any salient points about the recording process from others involved such as studio engineers and other band members. 4. An alternative track listing which may have been under consideration. (see The CD booklet which goes with Sgt Pepper's) and some indication as to which takes were finally used on the finished albums. 5. Unpublished photo's from the period in question or renditions of any alternative cover art work would also add to the collectability. And so on. At the Soundscapes playback in June this year I asked RF a question about the recording of Islands. His answer (which included some witty stories about the band, the pressure of recording and the circumstances around the recording of the solo in Sailor's Tale) seemed to me to be exactly the kind of thing that could go into the sleevenotes. Based on discussions with a few dozen participants at those playbacks, I reckon the sleevenotes would be a popular item of merchandise with KC enthusiasts. PS Counting off the days until I can get to London on Dec 4th to see Fripp and co. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:27:30 GMT From: Graeme & Cherry Subject: Earthbound, 80s production, etc (1) With all due respect to those critics of Earthbound: the recording quality is indeed appalling but it is actually the first KC I heard - some 12 years ago - my uncle had a copy of it he'd bought in South Africa when it came out and it got me hooked. The piercing tones on Schizoid Man are difficult to say the least. By contrast, though, Mel Collins' work on the jazzy impromptu Peoria is quite a gem. There again I haven't heard it for nigh on ten years so I could be wrong - though I doubt it cos I can still sing it in my head... Is it possible to release some cleaned up stuff from these shows? (2) As a slight indulgence: by way of a late reply to Mr Fripp a propos a somewhat philosophical conversation we were having in Astrix (aka Veritable) creperie on London's Kings Road nearly ten years ago (he may recall a misplaced dish-washer trying to place himself within some context and inquiring about Guitar Craft), I subsequently found the I with my own pair. Incidentally, I don't know if Mr Fripp has tried to sample Astrix's fine delights recently but George R has since sold up shop and the place has very much fallen into decline. (3) Word of warning - There's a nasty live Stranglers recording doing the rounds. Don't be fooled by its markdown price and guest-list including likes of Mr Fripp, Toyah and even the actor Phil Daniels. I quite like early Stranglers for a bit of fun but the performance is very flat. Basically, the problem is that Hugh Cornwell was in jail and couldn't make the gig... (4) Speaking of possible mis-rememberings in (1), I recently bought Zoolook by Jean Michel Jarre. I hadn't heard it for about ten years and remembered it as being very powerful. I was even more encouraged to find from the sleeve that Adrian Belew, Laurie Anderson and Marcus Miller played on it... I had to take it back though. Why? Some of the tunes were staggeringly inventive. The problem, though, was all too clear... eighties production! The trouble with working with synthetic instruments is that the sounds are giong to date very badly. A problem for any synth-fiend like Jarre. Allan Holdsworth nearly fell into the trap with some of his eighties synthaxe forays. In fact, there are few bands which managed to avoid making that instantly datable eighties nightmare. KC is one of those rare bands, I am pleased to say. Other examples of eighties nightmares: Jethro Tull's Under Wraps, Robert Plant's Sixes & Sevens, Clapton's August (most horrendous of all, perhaps), Neil Young's Landing on Water, CSN's Live It Up, Al Di Meola's S(n)oaring Through a Dream, and Yes's 90125 (although it's a cracking album anyway!). Sorry to whinge. More examples of eighties nightmares welcome... people should know what to avoid! Best wishes Graeme ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:57:32 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Earthbound Bashing - USA Up For Grabs Christopher A. Jepson wrote... > 1. I second Ralph Jessie's opinion that "Earthbound" is highly > disappointing -- primarily of historical interest. Ooohh...I have to balance this Earthbound-bashing that I hear going on. Am I alone in actually quite liking this record? (Cries of 'yes' from the peanut gallery...) Okay, so Boz was no bassist and maybe not a great singer. (Sorry, but 'dat-dood-n-dat-doody-dat-dat' doesn't make it jazz, however hard it might sound) However, in redemption we have a totally *monstrous* version of 21CSM quite unlike any other I've ever heard, not a bad rendition of part of 'The Sailor's Tale' and a fair to middling jam on side two. Fripp's playing throughout is beyond reproach and although the sound quality is abominable it still gives you a good idea just how powerful a band this version of Crimso actually were. Mel Collins blows up a storm all over the place and the drumming is simply wild, even though it all outstays its welcome just a tad on the interminable version of 'Groon'. Regretably the only bootlegs I have from this era sound like they were recorded from the back of the hall on a Sony (further cries of 'so does Earthbound' resound from the peanut gallery) so a definitive live recording from this band would have been nice, but 'Earthbound' is certainly *musically* a solid enough statement. On the same subject, I was fortunate to trip over a vinyl copy of 'USA' the other day. Being the philanthropist that I am, I'm prepared to give it away to a good home. First come (by e-mail!) first served. Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Fax 0131-653-6124 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Columnated Ruins Domino ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:35:42 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Cebola Subject: A blind date with ProjeKCt One At 05:50 26-11-1997 GMT, you wrote: >Recently there has been a lot of talk among us ETers about how much we >would like DGM to record and release an album of the music to be presented >for ProjecKt One. Here is my thought on that: > Aren't we being a bit hasty? We have no idea what the music will be >like for those shows. We could guess, but what's the use of that? Who >knows? The music might turn out to be completely unsuitable for a DGM >album. Then again it might turn out to be a brilliant choice of music >to be put on CD. It's too early to be thinking about it. > > Sincerely, > *Douglas Wright* We know this man's work. From Giles, Giles and Fripp to Pie Jesu, from Get Crafty to Centipede, from The Roches to FFWD, we have always been (and still are) suprised by his work. And that=B4s what keeps our interest alive. But never, ever, have I been disappointed by "unsuitable" music (whatever that means) from him. (Well, Brian Eno's Music for The White Cube is rather unsuitable to be put on 'one' CD, now that I think about it :)) So, instead of hunting for bootlegs from these sessions, I suggest DGM releases it oficially. And they should start thinking about it right now. Antonio Cebola ------------------------------ From: swinghammer at mindspring dot com Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:31:11 -0500 Subject: King Crimson posters and other things Hello all I was wondering if anyone knows where to get good King Crimson posters or if there are any to begin with. I have the ThraxAttak one and well I want more!!! Robert Fripp posters would be ok too. I would like some to hear some of Robert Fripp's solo work but am confused as to what to try out...I only really listen to like the early KC like In the Court..., In the Wake..., Islands, Larks Tongue..., and Red those are my personal favorites although I do enjoy Lizard and Starless very much. I'm also a big fan of John Cale's solo work if that helps you any. But I am more concerned with finding any good KC posters. Thanks for the help if you can provide any but whatever information any of you have for me would be great. Thanks! Jon Swinghammer +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. *----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Usual Suspects +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ And from these ending days Shall come a broader sympathy And though I count the hours To be alone's no injury... *----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exiles, King Crimson +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:35:29 +0000 From: Tim Salmon Organization: ucsf Subject: Elephant Talkie? Elephant Talkie? Earlier this evening I caught the end of a documentary about elephants called "Daphne & Eleanor" on PBS. As the credits rolled, I noticed that it was produced by NHK of Japan. The majority of the names involved with the production of course were Japanese, with one notable exception. The person identified as being responsible for the "English script" was Robert Fripp. Could this be the same man? -- TiM SaLMoN, San Francisco. ------------------------------ Subject: Hall,McDonald,YPG on CD/the other LOG Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 14:18:03 GMT From: brevoort at worldaccess dot nl (brevoort) Hello fellow Et'ers, from time to time the question arises if a certain album is out on CD. On three of those albums, I can give you the answer. The good news is that Daryl Hall's Sacred Songs, McDonald and Giles and KC's Young Person's Guide have been released on CD. The bad news is they're all japanese, expensive and extremely hard to find. In fact the only copies of all three I've ever seen, are the ones I picked up (in Amsterdam). Nevertheless, for all you tenacious fans out there -and aren't we all- here are some specifics: Daryll Hall-Sacred Songs: 1992 RCA/BMG BVCP-2091, McDonald and Giles: 1989 Atlantic 18P2-2852, KC-A young person's guide: 1990 Virgin Japan VJCP-3001~2. The YPG is a double CD (although it would have fitted easily on 1 disc) and comes complete with the original book (in CD size!) and a Pete Frame-type family tree. The family tree starts earlier than the one in Pete Frame's book and begins life as we know it with, yes there it is: the "other" League of Gentlemen. It is supposed to have existed from spring 1965 till spring 1966 and consisted of Fripp (guitar), Gordon Haskell (vocals), and Tino Lucinio, Stan Levy, Reg Matthews and Tony Head (instuments unknown). It also states that Fripp and Haskell had been in a band called The Revens (Ravens?). Can you imagine, Fripp a raver? Or is it rever (what the hell is a rever?). Best wishes to all, Rob van Brevoort ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:03:54 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ant=F3nio?= Cebola Subject: KC Videos Hello, According to an ad on The Wire (Dec 97), the Three of a Perfect Pair and The Frejus videos are available from DGM, at GBP 12.00 each. Just thought you would like to know. Antonio Cebola ------------------------------ From: dinosaur Subject: *Not* recording PROJEkCT ONE in London Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:17:30 +0000 (GMT) Hi there. What with all this ravenous debate going on regarding the issue of recording of the PROJEkCT ONE (how come practically everyone gets the spelling of this wrong?) gigs in London, I thought I'd add my 2 cents (although I'm probably biased 'cos I'll be attending the one next Tuesday). Although some people obviously won't be able to make it to the performances, I think recording it and boshing it out on a CD kind of takes away from the unique experience of actually being there. Just think, 4 nights of totally exclusive, never-heard-before Crimso music. Once the performance is over, that's it. It just lives on in peoples' memories. I think that's kind of cool, really. Isn't that the point of live gigs - *the moment*. Also, how come everyone is so keen on getting the recordings put into an X-CD box set when they haven't a clue what the music will sound like. It may be excruciating! I'm expecting it to be a bit weird, although I sincerely hope that we don't just get an hour and a half of THRaKaTTaK (another one that some have trouble spelling - just remember that there are no C's, and the A's are lower case!). Enough balderdash for now, James. +---------------------------------------------------------+ | jAMES bEARD - http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ | | It's only talk. | +---------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:41:30 +0000 From: This Strange e-mail Subject: Fripp in NYC Organization: internetMCI Would someone be kind enough to tell me what kind of concert Mr. Fripp will be performing on Dec. 13 at the bottom line in NYC? I'm going anyway, but I'm just interested if anyone knows if it will be a soundscapes thing or something else. Thanks! --John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:36:18 +0000 From: "paulp at porkpie dot demon dot co dot uk" Subject: Projekt(X) Quasi-official Bootlegs? >This sounds like a good idea.... To avoid paying RF and co. royalties >>What response would we get from DGM if we sent them the name of all the >>list members that would like to have the complete Jazz Cafe sessions (in >>glorious Audio Verite ;-)) released in a "n"-CD box? A happy yes please ! >Even if Fripp & Co. have no immediate plans to release Projekt recordings, >you can bet there'll be bootlegs. Bootlegs will exist while people are happy to pay for them. What makes you think these will be offered for free? Whether they're free (or not) is irrelevant. Bootlegging is theft. Theft of copyright. Theft of income for RF and KC. How would you feel if someone came and took your pay cheque? That's what bootlegging is at the end of the day. Theft. Pure and simple. Don't encourage the bootleggers. If you see someone recording the gigs tell someone - preferably someone in the band..... Regards Paul (porkpie) Parkinson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:28:06 +0000 From: Tim Salmon Organization: ucsf Subject: Fripp is as Fripp does. Fripp is as Fripp does. I just wanted to say that the "ROBERT FRIPP: THE MOTION PICTURE" post to ET#436 by KB305 at aol dot com was by far the most enjoyable ElephantTalkBit to date. -- TiM SaLMoN, San Francisco. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:14:43 -0500 From: James Bailey Organization: Southam Inc. Subject: OpTIoN 3 So far there appears to be two viewpoints: 1/ The next release of the KC catalogue should have unreleased or rare tracks included. 2/ The next release of the KC catalogue should NOT have unreleased or rare tracks included. Well, folks, there IS a third option: 3/ Include the rare/unreleased tracks on the new issues, but also release a separate disk with ALL of the extra material. This would mean that people who don't want to fork out for the new discs just to get the added stuff can just buy the separate album, and those who will be buying for the first time, or who DO want to upgrade can forego the extra disc. Sound reasonable? Just thought it might help. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #439 ********************************