Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #434 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 434 Tuesday, 18 November 1997 Today's Topics: From the moderator There Will Come Soft Drumming Re: Indigo Girls Trey & LCG CDs, John Cage Book Ban Crimson in the NewWorld ? Classical music and bootlegging Album artwork and other thoughts Ades' wordplay Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 73/74 Recordings Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 Like Frankenstein's Monster, Earthbound won't die. Reserch and Development ( in the wind) Belew interview, 11/6/97 Sylvian / Fripp live in Japan boot vid Bootlegging Opera Re: Dendro-Thread Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 Fripps Comments On USA/TGD Grunt on Exposure Bootlegging Object Re-issues - audio and video Dgm Releases...ok by me. Warning! Warning! Analysis KC reissues ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET moderator) Subject: From the moderator Hi everyone. Recently, I seem to have begun too many editions of ET with an apology for their lateness, and this edition is no exception. I'd like to apologise for that too. So this is a meta-apology, or something. Seriously, you deserve better from me, and I'm sorry to have let the side down. I've had a few problems recently, but I'm back together again. From now on, future editions of ET will appear as regularly as they should. And if you haven't yet heard Robert Wyatt's "Shleep", you should do immediately. His tribute to "Subterranean Homesick Blues" is a masterpiece. It would make a great Crimson track. No, only joking. OR AM I....? Best wishes to everyone. Toby ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 10:43:51 +0200 From: Adam Klin Subject: There Will Come Soft Drumming Ho. Good music, you hear. Excellent music, you feel. There is music that falls on you gentlly, like soft rains. There is music that engulfes you completely, like floating in warm oil. There is music that attacks you from all sides, like a hail of needles. There is music that makes love to you, music that beats its fists against your chest, music that kicks you in the balls, music that pats you on the head, music that is like a warm explosion in your gut, music that's a lump in your throat... What I like about King Crimson, more than anything else, is that they not only make amazing music, that you can feel and taste, but they also CHANGE - in one album, their music will fondle and caress you. In another, it'll throw you into deep thought, causing you to walk with a wrinkled brow and to bump into things. In yet another, screaming guitars will cut through your tissues and penetrate to the marrow. 'Tis a Sweet Life Indeed! P.S. - I got 'Discipline'. Hear it, ye guitarists, and despair! Be Seeing You, Adam Klin adam at forum2 dot org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 06:42:47 +0000 From: Jay Nittoli Subject: Re: Indigo Girls I saw Indigo Girls on 11/3, and to my pleasant surprise two of our old friends were in the rhythm section: Jerry Marotta and Sara Lee! The four of them were great. ------------------------------ From: btomko at glasscity dot net Subject: Trey & LCG CDs, John Cage Book Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:10:25 -0500 My favorite Rf & the LCG's CD is by far, Intergalactic Boogie Express. Show of Hands just doesn't compare. With Trey, go with The Third Star first...I like it a lot better than 1000 Years. Has anyone read the book "Conversations With Cage"? It's a compilation of interviews with John Cage. I read about it in a list University of Michigan gave me for suggested summer reading. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:08:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Markus Schneemann Subject: Ban Crimson in the NewWorld ? As an OldWorld ET/KC-enthusiast who just has 'inhaled' 10 days in Massachussetts (motto: 'the spirit of america') while the death penalty was proposed (and accepted, 81:79 votes) to be reintroduced (sounds like taking seriously the NewHampshire-motto: live free or die) I have to react to the post from: Vincent Ciaccio on the age limit of 21 (ET 433, Nov 6th) for concerts that are apparently linked to the likely concurrent use of alcoholics - 'the bottom line is age discrimination'. I think it goes further than that: Life is dangerous for you and some Americans (politicians only ?) want to make you/us believe that by avoiding some ptentially dangerous aspects of life it will not be dangerous any more. If that's the case then ban KC and other enlightening music for people under 21 - it's too dangerous !! Cheers - and have a pint (it could smooth your coronary arteries, but harden your liver) Markus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 12:19:18 -0500 From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: Classical music and bootlegging Just a note in reply to a comment in ET#433: Daniel Farris gives as a possible reason for the absence of bootlegging of "classical music": >Personally, I suspect the reason for a lack of classical bootlegs to be the >remarkably tedious adherence of classical performers to the score, a >tradition which, coincidentally, is about as old as the first classical >recordings. (twenty-five page essay about the negative effects of recording >technology on music as a whole deleted here) Whereas in jazz, rock or pop, >an audient might hope to hear a different solo or a slight variation on >this or that drum fill, what have you. This is actually quite untrue -- Gunter Schuller has just written an excellent text bemoaning, actually, the extreme liberties orchestas are taking with scores. It is interesting to obtain some of the recordings he discusses and check them out --- there are variations in different performances of Beethoven's Fifth which are quite in excess of the night-to-night variation Crimson may place in "Vrooom" (and, in much worse taste. Crimson, perhaps because it is their piece, are more consistent with the original "feel" of the piece, than some of Schuller's examplars.) Incidentally, I do not particularly like the Bozzio/Levin/Stevens album (and I do like, for example, Polytown). I find Mr. Stevens a bit too flashy. Less Fripp than DiMeola, louder than either. But of course he is excellent at what he does I think; just it might seem sort of unsubtle to the Crimson listener. SK ____________________________________________________________________________ Sanjay Krishnaswamy sanjay at visidyne dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:51:16 -0600 From: Philip Patston Subject: Album artwork and other thoughts Dear ETers, 1. Do you think that there a significance, or relationship to the music, of the artwork on the record sleeves and CD inserts of the KC albums? 2. Who are all the people on the cover of Lizard...and why? I can see the Beatles, Cream and Hendrix. 3. The cover of the 'Sunday All Over The World' CD has similar artwork to the 'Heartbeat' KC compilation. Was this just to save money, or is it telling us that SAOTW was really KC in disguise. Of all the RF work outside of KC, this one seems closest in sound and sprit to KC. and on a different topic, 4. If the much talked about movie based on 'The Prisoner' TV series ever is made, then KC would be perfect for providing the soundtrack. Phil. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:37:30 -0500 (EST) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: Ades' wordplay Hello, No! No! No! I beg to differ: Adrian has become a lean concise poet because he has maturity as an artist! This has nothing whatsoever to do with him becoming less of a clever lyrisist because of great big gigantic ego! People grow up and get better at there craft ,you know! Wordsmithy becomes more exact. He hasn't lost his creative homour either. So there! The snow is melting. Love and light, Your crazy Auntie Gail ------------------------------ From: "Stephen P. Goodman" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:28:08 -0800 Vincent Ciaccio intoned in #433 that The Bottom Line was descriminating on the basis of age in their admissions policy. Actually, the Bottom Line in this case has to cover their butts primarily because of the anti-alcohol movement; mostly this can be laid at the feet of M.A.D.D. Because of lobby groups like this there are statutes regarding bartenders and party hosts being liable for the amount their customers and guests drink (which generally killed the idea of having any house parties at all when I lived in NJ), as well as the insurance and other legal problems associated with admitting anyone under Drinking Age to an establishment that serves alcohol. While there used to be laws about the Drinking Age alone, mostly tied to revocation of liquor licenses, now there are guaranteed lawsuits in addition to this. I always find it a bit puzzling that, at 18, one may vote, and die for one's country, but not drink. It's a bit hypocritical, don't you think? If not also just one indication of the absence of trust shown by 'our' governments in our own ability to make decisions, while meting out the ability to keep them in power. Stephen Goodman * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios EarthLight Productions * Get the Loop Of The Week Free! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 16:07:17 -0500 From: Jon Quint Subject: 73/74 Recordings I agree wholeheartedly with Donald Chin. I would love to be able to *buy* any and all available (decent quality) video recordings of the LTIA period! Is anybody listening? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 21:41:31 GMT From: rtf_pjm at shsu dot edu Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 >Bootlegs: Anyone who thinks classical music hasn't been bootlegged is Subject: Reserch and Development ( in the wind) Hello ETers, Research and development have always played an important role in King Crimson. Look back on the demo of I TALK TO THE WIND on YPG and compare that to I TALK TO THE WIND on ITCOTCK. Especially in the drum department, Gilles' work here really shines. In Talking Drums magazine Adrian Belew responded: TD: What do you look for in a drummer? AB: "Beyond the obvious mechanics of knowing how to play well and getting great drum tones and having good chops - and all the drummers I've worked with have had that for days - what I really like most in a drummer is a sense of arrangement and dynamics. When a drummer really has that inner sense of where the song is going and not just concentrating on the drumming and the ability to propel the band foward, he's also concentrating on the dynamics of the song and the actual arrangement. Drummers who have a sense of that are my favorite drummers, and they can be as simple in their approach as Ringo or as complex as Bill Bruford." Michael Giles demonstrates what Adrian was talking about on I TALK TO THE WIND. If you think of the composition as a house, not only did he learn the blue print but developed a 3D vision of that house...the textures of the walls, the furniture placement, the feng shui of every room... and then he laid the drums in with the finesse of the spirit of a gentle breeze moving through that house. Soft and swift. Giles' drumming amazes me still after all these years. It's good to see that he's popping up here and there on the outer fringe of the inside. Would be really cool to see him play live some day! Long live ET, Dick Ross "Be sure you're right, then go ahead." - Davy Crockett ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 19:18:52 -0600 (CST) From: ewaldja at ctrvax dot Vanderbilt dot Edu (Jonathan A. Ewald) Subject: Belew interview, 11/6/97 Hi all. This is my first post to ET. Living in Nashville can be country-music hell, but I was pleasantly surprised this morning as I got into work with a phone call from a friend to tell me that Adrian Belew was being interviewed on one of our local stations (Lightning 100.1, a kind of adult-alternative station). I caught about the last half. At any rate, in the interview, he discussed some of the new "projects" that are being spawned from Crimson and mentioned specifically Projekt Two (however the hell you capitalize it), consisting of himself, Gunn and Fripp. He went on to say that he would be mostly playing drums in this sub-group. When I heard this, I was absolutely railed! I wanted to know what anyone/everyone else thought of this. Am I ignorant in not at all expecting Adrian to play drums in performance? He also mentioned that RF (didn't mention Gunn, that I heard) was coming to Nashville next Wednesday to begin planning and practicing. Just info I thought everyone would enjoy. Hoping to catch a glimpse, possibly, of the two at some bar in town (dreaming, actually), Jonathan ps. I'm all for any disc of live Crim from 73- onwards (to touch on that thread). *************************************************** Jonathan A Ewald Graduate Student/Dept. of Molecular Biology Vanderbilt University email: ewaldja at ctrvax dot vanderbilt dot edu jonathan dot a dot ewald at vanderbilt dot edu "The poet presents his thoughts festively, on the carriage of rhythm: usually because they could not walk." ---Nietzsche ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 17:18:08 -0500 From: "Taylor K. Sherman" Organization: By Myself Subject: Sylvian / Fripp live in Japan boot vid Greetings all. The other day I was perusing the ailes of Easy Street Records in West Seattle, and saw that they have a rather large selection of suspicious looking videos. (You know the kind, color-ink-jet-titles, handwritten labels). Anyways, they had one there which called itself: "Robert Fripp: Live, Tokyo, 1993". So I though, "You know, this sounds more like Sylvian/Fripp than just Fripp. In fact, this could be a copy of the laserdisc." Price was $25. So I took a chance and bought it. Sure enough, it's a fairly good copy of the japanese-only laserdisc from Nakano Sun Hall in Tokyo. So this raises several points. * Of course, I'm overjoyed to now own a copy of this release, which is very good and very interesting (especially with 3.5 guitarists in the lineup). * I bought a bootleg, plain and simple. No money from this purchase went to any of the performers. :( * Worse, this wasn't just a bootleg recording, it was a bootleg COPY of a commercially-released recording. * BUT: This commercially-released recording is available only in Japan, and only on laserdisc. * Now, Seattle may be closer to Japan than, oh, NYC or London, but it most definitely is not next door. I have no trips to Japan scheduled for the near future. * Also, I do not have a laser disc player. Now, say someone had no cd player, and they used this to justify getting taped copies of KC albums. Well, cds have been the main medium for audio for 10 years or so, and although LDs have been around even longer, they are _not_ the main media for video, not to mention the fact that they will soon be / already are obsolete due to DVDs etc. Even if I chose to purchase a LDP, don't forget that if I could find this LD it would run me about $75+, so the total outlay for this performance would be, oh, at least $300. * So: I feel no real guilt for purchasing this item. I've purchased other KC-related videos straight from DGM, with great delight upon their delivery, but this particular performance has been previously unavailable to me. * One last thing: If this performance was released by DGM in the US sometime (in a format which my equipment supported at that time), I would most likely purchase it, and eat the $25 that I spent on the boot. Ok, I've exceeded my 20-line limit by quite alot, so I'll be done now. Taylor ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:39:37 -0700 (MST) From: david craig Subject: Bootlegging Opera > True, there is no money to be made bootlegging classical music. Actually, I believe there is quite a vibrant community of folks trading, and possibly buying, bootleg recordings of Opera. These folks love their live music at least as much as we do, kids! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 20:48:21 -0500 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: Re: Dendro-Thread "Stevenson; David A" wrote: > The tree known as Crimson King is a cultivar of a Norway Maple. The leaves are > purplish, hence the name Crimson. The correct latin name of the tree is Acer > platanoides 'Crimson King' ... Hopefully that will end this thread. Don't count on it -- doubtless a thread on landscape architecture (In the Court of ...) is right around the corner. :-) Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 21:17:15 -0500 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 Ted White wrote: > As a creative artist, I am morally opposed to bootlegs. (It's exactly as if a > publisher put out one of my books without paying me - which has happened to me > twice.) But as a fan and collector, I prize those bootlegs which document > important (to me) performances - and it would appear that some of those > "documents" have been of major use to Fripp & Co - like those used for > EPITAPH. So I find myself in a quandary - like many of us here, I suspect. Maybe it's the old "information wants to be free" problem. I've found it odd that recordings in a record shop generally are all of a price (or more accurately, a narrow selection of "price points") -- regardless of the actual production cost. (Yes, this is also true of other entertainments as well.) Where was it written that a product with a substantially lower cost of production (say, a straight soundboard mix) must sell for the the same price as a record that took half a year to prepare in a full-service commercial studio? It seems there's a thousand and one ways for artists to "harvest" the intellectual property of their concerts to the benefit of all today (and not to have to wait 22 years for the pay-off). Perhaps there's a market out there for "official" ET-related bootlegs, done at dirt-cheap costs, that most anyone can afford. Perhaps performers could offer them in sets, or through a prepaid subscription, in order to achieve volume effects. Perhaps they could be offered as premiums to induce buyers to purchase other works, or sample new artists. Increasing the scope of available (and affordable) *legitimate* material might help foster a far more active after-market in trading and collecting -- good news for spreading the word about ET-related artists, and their formal studio work, or for building relations between fans. Surely the enthusiasm Fripp et al see here at ET should persuade them that commercial sales of their own inexpensive bootlegs would not seriously jeopardize their concert ticket sales -- while offering the opportunity for thousands of enthusiasts to "attend" concerts which would otherwise have been inaccessible. (Such goodwill would also go a long way towards addressing the ongoing Marketing Weaseldom thread.) Fripp also says he doesn't necessarily view the release of any given recording as a "final" edition, so along this line of thinking, releasing a bare-bones straight-to-disc recording should not jeopardize the proceeds from future products using the same raw materials, but enhanced, consolidated, edited, etc. Enjoying profits both today and tomorrow from elements of the same content sounds like a smart annuity to me. Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 02:06:22 -0500 (EST) From: Dinosaur Bob Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #433 Damn, I've been gone too long. :) Some things about which I'm curious, since I've been off the list for a few months now (and if any of this has already been covered recently, I'd appreciate if someone could just email me at satori at intac dot com with the details): A short time ago, in one of the guitar magazines I peruse every so often to see what Fripp's up to, RF mentioned working on a project with Ministry/KMFDM/Ten Seconds drummer Bill Rieflin and Trey Gunn. I also saw Bill listed as a contributor to the Level One being held in Seattle... First off, how'd this combination come about? And second, when can we expect the album? Is anything expected from the California Guitar Trio in the near future? Finally, I've seen RF refer in a few instances to the thriving Argentinian rock scene as being similar in spirit to--for one example--the New York scene of the late '70's and early 80's. As someone with a more than passing interest in Argentinian rock, I'm curious as to who he had in mind, and if KC has taken any musical or stylistic cues from any of what they've heard there. Soda Stereo (unfortunately now defunct) comes to mind as a band that would've been at home next to Crimson... Finally, if anyone would be so kind as to forward the ET in which Mr. Fripp's message appears, I'd be thankful. Enough outta me. :) Paul ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 18:52:06 -0500 Subject: Fripps Comments On USA/TGD In ET 432 Andy Gower mentioned the following: AG>> 1. Thanks to David Singleton for clarifying the USA debate. I was querying AG>> the pending release of USA, becuase Fripp had already declared that the AG>> whole album (save Asbury Park) was available on The Great Deceiver. Why AG>> rerelease it? Now it all seems to make sense. Fripp has stated before that AG>> he thought the Asbury Park show was a historical event and obviously he AG>> made false proclamations about USA to throw people off the AG>> scent. Unfortunately, ETers are too smart for that as the previous weeks of AG>> discussion indicate. Actually when I read Mr. Fripps comments on USA being available on TGD I believed he was refering to the same "SHOW/CONCERT/SET LIST" was availbe on TGD. It seemed to me he was same show, but was a better performance. Kind of like if you saw them two nights in a row, without no difference in the set list, but the second night was better than the first. Did anyone else feel the same about his comments? Les B. Labbauf http://home.ptd.net/~leslabb "It's always better to regret something you have done then to regret something you haven't done!" - Anonymous "Something Unknown Is Doing Something We Don't Know What." Sir Arthur Eddington "What Me Worry?" Alfred E. Newman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:01:23 -0800 From: Frank Pfau Subject: Grunt on Exposure Hello ETer's, I recently posted regarding edits in the remixed Esposure. Namely the cutting of the final grunt at the end of the title track. Brian Arnold wrote: >I have to say I am very pleased with the remixed version of Exposure and >I don't miss the vinyl version, but to each their own. >Regarding the loss of the grunt, who friggin' cares? Go re-tape your >vinyl. Brian, I agree that the sound quality is much improved. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. As for the grunt; I just liked it. It was a nice exclamation point. That's all. I'm not saying RF had no right to take it out; of course he did. I was just wondering what his reasoning was. As for the laughing attack; it's not the one you were describing at the end. It's a definate LAUGHING ATTACK. The kind that has you on the floor. And it's participants are a male and a female and at the very end you can hear the man faintly say "oh dear, oh dear", and you can just see him wiping his eyes. It was an amusing, refreshing break in the course of listening to the album. Perhaps that's why RF took it out; it didn't flow. One can only guess. > Is the point of musical performance, or music recording, There is no one single "point" to music. It's an art form. There is no one single "point' to theatre, painting, sculpture or any medium. To say there is is extremely narrow and limiting. >to breathe and reach out to a broader audience, or to fulfill the >expectations > of the audience? If the former, then who friggin' cares about a grunt > being on every official studio recording of a piece. I care about the grunt. I bought the cd because I like MANY things about the release. The grunt, NY3 etc... Are you telling me you wouldn't be dissapointed if RF excluded Here Come The Flood in order to "breathe and reach out to a broader audience", as you say? Come on! Of course you would. Why? Because you had "expectations" that weren't fullfilled. As did I. Frank ------------------------------ From: benbow at midwest dot net (Jim Benbow) Subject: Bootlegging Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 17:02:31 GMT Organization: * In ET Digest #433 daniel farris wrote: >But I believe that all of the bootleggers on ET claim they are = bootlegging >Crimson, Fripp and others in order to have a 'keepsake' or 'memento' of >the occasion. (As an aside, I maintain that this is foolishness because >1.) a concert ticket is for a concert, not a recording session, and 2.) >what is essentially compelling about actually attending a concert is not >something that can be recorded completely, so why replace a proper and >pure recollection of the real thing with an inaccurate or fundamentally >incomplete recording of it?)=20 I would like to address your aside. It seems to me that in some sense a concert has similarities to a recording session, as does any listening experience. We record the experience in our memories as you suggest in your second point. What, to me, primarily differentiates a concert from sitting at home listening to a CD is that a concert has (presumably) a "value added" to the recording in that the personal experience of artist and audience with one's own reactions adds an emotional element to the simple sound aspect. However, the linking ofemotions to music is not restricted to concerts. (i.e. the music playing during one's first date with their spouse or music experienced at a great [or awful] party) The external recording can be used to rekindle those original emotions in a way that simple recollection cannot. A personal bootleg might not be used to replace the experience of the concert but to relive it. I make these points because I have a very undependable memory and often need some trigger (sound, smell, sight) to bring back the past. I have never done any bootlegging but would like to hear again concerts I have attended to help bring back the emotions I felt. This does not, however, address what I see as Mr. Fripp's objection to mechanical recording of concerts: That the act of recording robs one of the best experience possible at the concert. Perhaps this is what you wanted to get at in your second point. Jim Benbow benbow at midwest dot net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 14:55:57 -0500 From: jason or melissa or tyler Organization: lucidchromapsychobabble un-incorporated Subject: Object I haven't read one of these newsletters in almost a year. I am somewhat surprised that the dominant threads haven't changed. Adrian Belew is STILL being scrutinized (and defended) and bootlegs are STILL being scrutinized (and weakly defended). I'm aware of Fripp's view of unauthorized recordings of an artist's performance. Mr. Fripp seems to have a very rigid and intolerant philosophy toward them, in my opinion. Now, before I'm cast aside like a piece of old fruit by you odd and repetitive people, let me explain something. In interviews with Fripp it becomes apparent that he also bows to the inherent truth in music: Musicians do not create music; musicians interpret the impulses that Music (as an intangible entity) offers them. Sound is Sound. Whether it comes from a Warr guitar or an upset stomach. It may seem a absurdly inappropriate comparison, but it is a relevant one. There is only one form of appreciation that I can offer to ANY "artist" or "musician" justifiably and that is an obscure manipulation of Sound. The particular sound itself is irrelevant. Eno has, I'm certain, selected a grouping of sound sources on any given piece that would cause the less-"open-minded" artist to balk. A musician's task is simply to produce an interpretation of what Sound offers (which, I'm sure any honest musician will admit, is almost always a grossly inaccurate representation of the original thought). If any "artist" claims or implies a certain proprietorship over the results, then that artist is delusional. We all draw from the same well, brothers. Music is simply information taken to an aesthetic plane. If you can make money off of it, you are either exceptionally business- minded or you are simply the temporary butt of some sadistic record company's joke and will soon be discarded for another dupe. Either way, the sounds you transmit are far from yours. Any notion that you might have concerning "rightful ownership" or "monetary obligations" is far too worldly to be realistic and is sadly lacking in humility. So, in much much shorter terms, I disagree with Fripp and the majority of you who discuss bootlegs as if they were false idols or graven images unordained. Sound is sound, information is information. Any sense you might entertain of Dominion over these is existent within your ego only. This brings me to my final point: I have just presented my view on "ownership of music" and, more specifically, bootlegs. Observe! Now I will detach myself from expressing it (on THIS forum) completely. The only further words from me concerning this subject will be as a reply to someone else's response (if any). I will not proliferate this senseless thread any more than I have to. Indeed, perhaps even this one statement lends itself towards hypocrisy. But, I was actually astonished that the humble art of interpreting and arranging sound was being brutally reduced to monetary levels. I'd like to convey my utmost respect to Robert Fripp, however. He is, and will forever be, regarded very highly in my mind as a particularly clever manipulator of sounds. Somewhat likened unto thy Great Deceiver. Anomalai 11-7-97 ------------------------------ From: Tim Meadowcroft Subject: Re-issues - audio and video Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:29:47 -0000 >> I agree with the suggestion to add value by including extra tracks Please _no_, too many re-issues are spoiled by "bonus tracks" that un-balance the rest of the album (have you heard what has been tacked on to the end of Bowie's Scary Monsters, I have to leap up and turn it off quick) . If you must have them, put them at the start, not the end, so I can skip them when I want, or put them on another disk (free with 3 tokens maybe ??). >> Apparently Bill did a movie called "Bruford and the Beat" where he >> discusses his styles, background and equipment and performs the track A drummer friend had this (as a drumming tutorial rather than fan's video/movie) and it was very good, but I seem to remember it was quite short. The drum pattern behind Discipline was fascinating (and did my friend's head in). Quote: "... and then I put a 4/4 beat on the bass drum underneath the 17/16 pattern, so people can still dance to it ..." >> Recent posts regarding KC video appearences made me realize something I'd >> really love to see available: a compilation tape of historical KC clips But VHS would be poor for this, whereas DVD would be ideal (nice menus, immediate seek and search), and the people who did the DGM web site can do that too (OK, declare an interest - not me but my wife). If the powers that be ever define the audio standard, and make it like the video, DVD should allow us a single disc with the original, the enhanced, and the director's cut all in one, play whichever version you want ! >> Adrian is ... Can we sometime forget this, or any chance of filtering it out and into another mailing list, Bollocks-Talk maybe ?? I'll write you a Perl filter to remove them if you want. [ Bollocks-Talk might just be the saviour of the Internet. -- Toby ] Tim ------------------------------ From: djdowling at earthlink dot net Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 20:10:33 -0500 Subject: Dgm Releases...ok by me. James, I am very pleased with Both of Trey's albums and the 2 LCG albums you inquire about. I would recommend buying 3rd star and Boogie xpress first, if money is an object. Note; I am now dedicated Trey Gunn fan as aresult of these albums and his live performance in Boston last summer. Keep cranking Trey. Dave ------------------------------ From: "Dan Wasser" Subject: Warning! Warning! Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 22:31:12 -0500 Sorry to disagree, HF, but all ETers should be warned: Black Light Syndrome is BOOOOOOORING. You can definitely tell that there was practically no practice sessions and that it was recorded in four days. There's one song on there that SHOULD be called "Shades of One More Red Nightmare." But even that title gives it too much credit. Bozzio can't hold a drum stick to Bruford. Dan >From ET 433: >Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:21:34 -0500 (EST) >From: HFHIFI at aol dot com >Subject: Bozzio, Levin, Stevens > >Unless I haven't noticed, there seems to have been little mention of "Black >Light Syndrome" which features Tony Levin. For any Crimheads, this is an >absolute "must have" CD!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:45:45 -0500 (EST) From: MilesTee at aol dot com Subject: Analysis Realizing that ET is the forum to analyse King Crimson and its parts, I have no problem skimming through "posts" that many times beat the already dead horse about the head and shoulders. As ET is this forum, then so be it ~ Enjoy! I am having trouble with analysis of the people, particularly Robert Fripp. RF is an artist. He has brought me, and at times my loved ones, truly fresh innovative complex yet simple (oh that single note & acoustic sound) art through music since 1970. I continue to expand and grow with each new piece and new listen. At the same time, RF is human, entitled to human emotions that should not be subject of our scutiny. RF should not be required to come to his own defense or that of those around him. Perhaps those of us who place the other is this position should stop ... listen ... and look in the mirror ... We should always be thankful for what we have & share with those less fortunate around us. On this note, a mere $15.70 helps feed ten homeless people in the fine City of Chicago. Send the same to "Olive Branch Mission, 6310 South Claremont, Dept s7T-43289, Chicago, Illinois 60636-2427" or your local affiliation not only in this Thanksgiving Season, but at all times. Best Regards, Tom Miles (Miles Tee at AOL dot com) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:57:19 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: KC reissues In response to the idea of adding bonus tracks to the KC release, I would like to point out that this would do EXACTLY what Mr. Fripp does not want to do: push people into buying albums that they already own. For those of us who remain happy (even if in ignorance) with our current collection, new issues with one or two extra tracks are simply a tease; they make a perfectly good collection seem useless. This does not mean that I would not welcome outtakes (any and all) from the KC archives. What I would suggest is that such collections be released with all new material--somewhat like The Beatles "Anthology" collections. By the way, if this ever happens I hope the "Beat" sessions that are being included in the Belew box will be included in the KC collection. Note to Robert and DGM: I realize that KC sells better than solo Fripp, but I hope someday you will consider releasing more of Mr. Fripp's solo work. The solo "Frippertronic" tour and outtakes from "Let the Powers Fall" etc. would be particularly welcome. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #434 ********************************