Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #433 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 433 Thursday, 6 November 1997 Today's Topics: A close encounter of the....? MarkJ's Reply By Request Speculation The Bottom Line is age discrimination Jazz Cafe gig Fripp's (non) encounter PLEASE HELP ME!!! I'M LOOKING FOR KING CRIMSON BOOTLEGS!!! Hello Crimson Fans Re: Earthboud Trade bootlegging Exposure Haley Barbour a Crimson fan? Pete Sinfield : "STILL" Bozzio, Levin, Stevens The correct "Crimson King" tree KC Video suggestion 1. The discussions concerning Adrian are ridiculous; 2. KC Bootlegs & Apocalypse London shows; Sinfield KC and the Chicago Tribune Remasters - Gems not Gyps USA on CD (WARNING!) '73-74 KC Concert Recordings Amy X Neuburg & Men NW tour ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: anon01 at mlode dot com (Anonymous01 Anon1) Subject: A close encounter of the....? Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:00:48 -0800 Soundman kind, I'm surmising, from Mark's post in ET 431. Apparently Mr. F misread, but I get the feeling I'm not the only one who noticed, and I don't wanna get flamed, so...Cheerio! AA1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:06:12 -0500 (EST) From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: MarkJ's Reply By Request Hi ET'ers! As Robert has requested, "Would Mark be kind enough to reply to these questions", I will do so. The answers may not be as revealing as the questions. Firstly, and most importantly, I was NOT referring to Robert, but to his sound man in my comments. I apologize if my text was confusing, but upon further review, this may become apparent. BTW, the sound man did also reply to me via personal email, indicating that he was sorry that I was "pissed off", but that he neither heard nor saw me. Should this be the case, then I too would (and did, via return private email) apologize for my hastiness in assuming that I was agressive enough to be heard by him. Simply put; I called. He dashed past. I could not have known why. I was curious as to what he had been up to, whether he had maintained his exercises while on the road, and whether he had been to the Seattle Guitar Circling Weekend the previous weekend, or was planning to attend the upcoming Level One. That said, then predicated on the (incorrect, in this case) assumption that I was heard and not acknowledged, the answer I offer in response to Robert's general question is; Based on the mores and social climate in which I was raised, it is considered common courtesy to respond with acknowledgement, however succinct, to a call for attention from someone familiar, even a brief acquaintance, and in many cases, even to *polite* strangers. To be ignored under such circumstances could be considered a personal affront, which would generally result in feelings of anger (being pissed off) and/or rejection. I hope to behave in accordance with this conditioning throughout my years. If you catch me in a crowd, by all means, call to me if you're so inclined! Again, I apologize for any possible confusion I may have caused. Maybe others that have had "close encounters of the Fripp kind" could better answer Robert's queries. Now.......let's discuss The Nightwatch and the upcoming Proje**ts! Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Nov 97 16:57:45 -0500 From: "Marc I Roemer" Subject: Speculation Heilbronner, Michael writes, Subject: The Bottom Line is age discrimination After reading Mr. Fripp's post at a computer terminal in my happy little college library, I drove home, ran to the phone, and got the number for the Bottom Line, hoping for some info on the Dec 13th show. After finding out the ticket price, which I must say was quite reasonable, I asked a question out of formality on whether or not there was an age restriction, and alas, it is twenty-one. Of course, this puts me at distinct disadvantage, because by the 13th I'll still be 6 months shy of my 21st birthday. I do not possess a fake ID, and will not spend the necessary money to get one with so few days between now and my "legality". I'm not quite sure whether this has to do with some alcohol restriction (which wouldn't affect me since as a college student living in NY I couldn't afford a drink if I wanted one); or some presumed immaturity level of those under twenty-one. If it is the second one, I dare say that I at my "immature age" of 20 I possess more maturity than the mudslingers who fought for public office in yesterday's elections. It seems necessary that this post should have some sort of coherent message aside from my raving indignation at the age requirements of some nightclubs, so as a public service anouncement... For those ET readers under the age of 21 and living in the NYC area, I'd advise you make other plans for the night of December 13th. Mr. Fripp, I in no way blame you for this. If the spirit moves you, please let me know some magical word to tell the bouncers to overlook the shortfall in my age, and possibly that of my friend who is a fellow ET reader, and who will be graduating from college this spring, two months prior to his twenty-first birthday. Respectfully, Vincent W. Ciaccio -Any private responses should be sent to Do21 at iona dot edu or blaubas at erols dot com or both- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 17:29:14 -0500 From: bru bilford Organization: i was naked Subject: Jazz Cafe gig i will be flying into London for the Monday and Tuesday night shows. I'd love to hang out with some ETers before and after the gigs! any takers? Toby? please reply to Chris Trionfo at the following addresses: triumph19 at sprynet dot com infidel at mailexcite dot com See you all there. Bill! Bill! Bill! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 19:02:17 CST From: "Eric Anderson" Subject: Fripp's (non) encounter In ET 432 Fripp writes: >In ET 431 Mark J. writes of his close encounter of the Fripp kind. Fripp then goes on to analyze Mark J's post. I could be mistaken, but I thought that in Mark's post Mark was talking about a soundboard man who behaved in a manner SIMILAR to Fripp's, not Fripp himself. It seems as though Fripp may have misread Mark's post thinking that it was aimed at Fripp. Unless, Fripp was just defending the soundman's behavior (or apparent behavior from Mark's point of view). Either way the analysis would prove more illuminating if Fripp could clarify who he is defending, or just questioning. Too da loo, Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 03:38:24 -0800 From: Mark Platts Organization: Slippery Rock Univeristy Subject: PLEASE HELP ME!!! I'M LOOKING FOR KING CRIMSON BOOTLEGS!!! I am looking for decent quality or better KC bootlegs from 1969-75. If you would like to dub yours for me for blanks and postage, PLEASE e-mail me! Do NOT e-mail me if you want to sell me tapes or if you want me to send you extra tapes or pay you for dubbing them!!! Thank you very much, Mark map4381 at sru dot edu ------------------------------ From: "Rich Malitz" Subject: Hello Crimson Fans Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 23:22:31 PST Hello fellow Crimson fans, this is my first attempt at writing ET. I am writing in response to a few things, though I admit I have no outline as to what I am going to now write about! Regarding the upcoming live releases: The Longacre shows on CD? More THRAK tour on CD, I am all for that! I can understand this release completely. The B'boom Cd is wonderful on it's own, but how many groups release a live album of a warm-up tour?! Deja Vrooom (as I believe it is to be called) captures the double trio at their peak over a year later. I know it will contain a bunch of songs we don't have on CD live from the new lineup(Thela Hun Ginjeet,Dinosaur,Prism,Neurotia etc.)as well as more improved versions or I could say, different, of our favorites, I and my friends, welcome this release with open arms, and I wouldn't mind one from the 1996 leg! Compare this, if you can, to having only a early 1973 show and then getting a Providence or Amsterdam gem later. You'd want them all!! I also have heard the mention of a 1984 live album and that is one that is overdue. Since there are no live cds of the 1981-84 period, I can't wait to get that one! But will it be a 2 cd set? Who knows! If USA is rereleased in an expanded form, I will be surprised as well as happy once again! I must admit it is becoming quite nice to see all these live recordings seeing the light of day! I have thought I saw mention of a LTIA tour live cd with Muir?! I would like some elaboration on this! I don't believe Earthbound is as welcome as the rest! Don't hold any ill will towards me please! I do feel it deserves a release for the same greedy reasons I want the other cds, just may be another fan's nectar. As far as the reissues go for next year, well I guess I would surender to Fripp and buy them, but I agree with the suggestion of bonus tracks, either studio or live, being added on for a special treat. The Who and Queen are two other bands that have reissued their catalogs in this matter which was happily accepted by the fans. If anyone would like to discuss any of this with me, please email me. A final note to Mr. Fripp, Mr. Singleton, and all at DGM: The only way to make all of "us" happy, you must release "everything!" Let the anti-THRAKers complain about another THRAK live cd, or the anti-73-74 lineup people whining about another live cd. Put it out and (hopefully) it will sell itself! Good night from the Chicago Suburbs! Rich Malitz ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 11:18:37 +0100 From: pmdavies Organization: Sun Microsystems Subject: Re: Earthboud Trade To Dominick: I can help. Email me if interested. (To Toby: Apologies for posting to the list, but my email reply could not be delivered - host unkown.) Regards, Paul Davies (Paul-Martin dot Davies at France dot Sun dot Com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 04:37:55 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: bootlegging GRANTCO at webtv dot net (Grant Colburn) wrote: > I'd like to offer a quick thought about this subject that I don't > think has been mentioned in earlier posts. To me the real reason rock > musicians worry about bootlegging more than classical ones is because the > writers of the classical music are......dead, dead, DEAD!!!! When you go > to a King Crimson show the composer of "Red" is present and playing and > ALIVE! There are no decendents of J.S. Bach or Mozart getting royalties > from a performance of their works. Like Frank Zappa said in his > autobiography the problem with classical orchestras playing new > compositions is that living composers expect to be PAID. If you bootleg > Beethoven's 5th, Beethoven ain'ta gittin' nuttin' anyway. Living composers > live on the music they write, and in rock more importantly on what they > record. Unlike classical most rock music is not written down, it only > exists in live and recorded performance. You make a valid point, but you have missed something. First, I should clarify/correct what I wrote about bootlegging in classical music. While classical performers don't normally worry about audience bootlegging and therefore don't frisk the audience, they do worry about sound engineers bootlegging and very nearly do frisk them sometimes. I've had symphony managers ask me for the tape I was hired to make and then, after having been given the tape, demand that I hand over the backup copy they are sure I made to keep for myself- and then proceed to look for additional tape recorders I might have brought for this purpose. Obviously no backup existed, and I had no intention of keeping any of it for myself. I only mention this to clarify that bootlegging does occur in classical music, but it is most likely done by a dishonest audio engineer. In any case, what you miss is that to record a musician without paying them, regardless of who the composer might be, is both illegal and unethical. When a session player turns up to play on a recording of a piece of music which they did not write, they expect a wage. They are also legally entitled to one. If you don't believe me, try airing an unauthorized recording of, say, Kronos playing Hendrix and see who shows up to sue you first, Kronos or Hendrix's estate attorney. So, 1.) classical musicians do worry about bootlegging, and 2.) bootlegging the public domain works of a dead composer with no living heirs is an ethical and legal violation of the rights of the performer(s). rtf_pjm at shsu dot edu (Paul) wrote: > No. There is no money to made bootlegging classical music. If there was, > then your theory might hold up. But, when the demand for a classical > bootleg is virtually nonexistent, there is no desire to fulfill the demand > and therefore bootleggers are not enticed by classical music concerts > because there is no money in it. Symphony Orchestras across the U.S. > haven't been shutting down because of the high profit margin. True, there is no money to be made bootlegging classical music. But I believe that all of the bootleggers on ET claim they are bootlegging Crimson, Fripp and others in order to have a 'keepsake' or 'memento' of the occasion. (As an aside, I maintain that this is foolishness because 1.) a concert ticket is for a concert, not a recording session, and 2.) what is essentially compelling about actually attending a concert is not something that can be recorded completely, so why replace a proper and pure recollection of the real thing with an inaccurate or fundamentally incomplete recording of it?) So, if, in popular music, the audience is passionate enough about a performance to stoop to theft in order to have it on tape, it seems that would be sufficient motivation for a passionate classical audience to do the same. Unless, of course, one assumes a fundamental difference between the pop and classical audiences. Hmmm... Personally, I suspect the reason for a lack of classical bootlegs to be the remarkably tedious adherence of classical performers to the score, a tradition which, coincidentally, is about as old as the first classical recordings. (twenty-five page essay about the negative effects of recording technology on music as a whole deleted here) Whereas in jazz, rock or pop, an audient might hope to hear a different solo or a slight variation on this or that drum fill, what have you. > Secondly, frisking is not solely the result of audio bootleggers. Security > tends to look for other contraban as well... which you are even less likely > to find at a classical concert (in part because they serve alcohol at the > wet bar befroe the concert and during intermission - and because many of > the patrons have legal perscription drugs). This reminds me of Spalding Gray's story about sneaking vodka miniatures into the Rainbow Room. Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham Alabama ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 09:30:01 -0800 From: Frank Pfau Subject: Exposure Hello ET'ers, This is my first post. About ten years ago, I made a tape of Exposure from vinyl. I misplaced the tape a few years ago and recently bought it on cd. However, to my disapointment, I've noticed a couple of edits; namely, at the end of the title track, when the woman is fantasticly screeming her head off, I seem to remember there being a final "grunt" after her last screem. It's missing. Also, the laughing attack is also missing. "Oh dear, oh dear". I'm not pleased! There very well may be more changes that I haven't noticed yet. Anyone know what's up? Why the changes RF? Oh, one more thing; does anyone know where the "vocals" on (I forget the name of the song- "Well, get out! There's the door") are from? Or were they performed exclusevly for the song? I thank whomever in advance for any assistance! BTW, on that juvinile "is Adrian worthy" thread; he's not only worthy, he COMPLETES King Crimson. He facilitates them to come full circle. Frank ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:49:36 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Haley Barbour a Crimson fan? This may be old news to ETers, but it shocked me--doing a casual search of "Elephant Talk" on the web, I found out that "Elephant Talk" is also the title of an online newsletter put out by the Republican Party! To me, this is just another example of Republicans sloppily appropriating rock lyrics in an effort to be "hip" (Bob Dole's "Dole Man," anyone? or Ronald Reagan's misinterpretation of "Born in the USA"?), but I wonder what Fripp et al. make of this... then again, it's only talk. Anyone interested in checking it out (and maybe spamming the webmaster ;-) ) can point their browser to http://qc-republicans.org/issues.htm. Kevin Holm-Hudson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 18:07:53 +0100 From: Thierry Wyss Subject: Pete Sinfield : "STILL" Hello, I have just received the Elephant Talk Digest #432. Thank you. I will go through the newsletter tonight ! I am looking for Pete Sinfield LP called "Still" on Manticore Records Ltd 1973. I had the tape and still could find the cover but not the content ! Can anyone give some advice how to get in contact or to get this record Best Regards and Thanks in advance Thierry Wyss ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:21:34 -0500 (EST) From: HFHIFI at aol dot com Subject: Bozzio, Levin, Stevens Unless I haven't noticed, there seems to have been little mention of "Black Light Syndrome" which features Tony Levin. For any Crimheads, this is an absolute "must have" CD!!! Bozzio spearheaded this project, which was recorded in a mere 4 days. It is entirely instrumental and mostly improvisational. Steve Stevens, heretofore unknown to me, is an incredibly versatile guitar player. There are a number of tracks clearly penned by Levin which have a very KC feel, and Stevens does his best to emulate Fripp. The problem is, it is better than most of what Fripp has done in the past few years!!! Stevens straps on a set of brass ones, where as Fripp seems to have lost his. I found my copy at Newbury Comics in the Boston area. I urge any of you to get it. Now we must pray for a tour. ------------------------------ From: "Stevenson; David A" Subject: The correct "Crimson King" tree Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:44:06 -0500 The tree known as Crimson King is a cultivar of a Norway Maple. The leaves are purplish, hence the name Crimson. The correct latin name of the tree is Acer platanoides 'Crimson King' The only reason that I know this off the top of my head is because I am taking a class here at SUNY Cobleskill called "Woody Plants". Hopefully that will end this thread. [ Oh I don't know. I was rather getting into this dendro-thread -- Toby ] Dave Stevenson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:13:14 -0500 (EST) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: KC Video suggestion Recent posts regarding KC video appearences made me realize something I'd really love to see available: a compilation tape of historical KC clips throughout the ages, sort of like a video companion to "The Compact KC" or "The Young Persons's Guide". Probably more difficult for DMG to put together due to individual clip ownership and research concerns. However, I would undoubtedly line up to get my hands on such a document, and I'll bet others would too. What KC fan wouldn't want, say, "Cat Food" from "The Top of the Pops" in '70, that "Yes" clip Jonathan Casey refered to, the "Beat Club" clip of "Lark's Tongues", the Midnight Special apperance in '73, the "Fridays" apperance in '80 (killer!), etc., all on one tape? Your friendly KC market advisior, Ken Lacouture ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:10:38 -0500 Subject: 1. The discussions concerning Adrian are ridiculous; 2. KC YAH! I'm getting tired of hearing the "is Adrian good for King Crimson" discussions. This whole discussion presupposes that Adrian's contribution amounts to the "popular parts, vocals, and guitar licks", and that hence his contribution can be easily mentally subtracted. I would guess that most people would concieve of a Adrian-less KC as consisting of tunes like Thrak, Vroom, B'Boom, and whatever else, but I would suggest that even these tunes would be entirely different (or nonexistent) without him. At this point, that's kind of like saying "The beatles would have been better band without McCartney. Oh yeah, if they had had Max Roach as drummer instead of Ringo it would be even better. And while we're at it, replace Harrison with Les Paul, and Lennon with Cole Porter. Then the beatles would have been a REALLY great band." As for Bootlegging, I would point out that all of the arguments for/against the practice when it comes to king Crimson are quickly becomming moot! I guess Fripp, et al have decided to tackle the problem by releasing whatever they've got! I look forward to the Longacre stuff, and hope for Savoy '81 as a representation of the 80s band. -Emory ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Bootlegs & Apocalypse Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:04:30 -0500 Condolences to Toby; a move is enough - throwing flu on top of it would exhaust most people with the sturdiest of constitutions. (And, if it's anything like one of my moves, it results in stacks of boxes that remain unopened for months, if not years....) It's always a pleasure to hear directly from Mr. Fripp, and I shall make a point of being at the Birchmere (Alexandria, VA) the night of December 10th. But I wonder why, aside from the informative portion of his post, Robert responds only to those who manage in some fashion to tick him off. I mean, I can understand his not responding to speculation over his "eccentricity" - I doubt I would either, were I in his shoes (and such speculation over personal aspects of the man made me a bit uncomfortable myself, since, as has been pointed out, what's "eccentric" to one person may seem only sensible to another). But what about other questions and issues? I asked one, last summer, about the nature of improvisation as practiced by K.C. I, for one, would enjoy a stimulating intellectual conversation with Mr. Fripp (such as we had almost twenty years ago, in a Georgetown hotel) rather than these confrontations with Eters based at least on occasion on misunderstandings on one side or the other. Be that as it may, I'm glad to see him participating occasionally here. Doug Robillard brings up the 1974 MM interview and thinks "Fripp has proven to be a fairly good prognosticator." I don't really agree. Nothing even approaching the apocalyptic view expressed in the interview has occurred, and the trend-lines point in the opposite direction. In science fiction the point of view expressed in that 1974 interview was commonly expressed from the mid-sixties on for the next decade or so. I personally believed then that we'd not survive to the Millennium (2001) - biological catastrophe was what I thought would get us (a manufactured virus either getting loose accidentally, or being used in war). I was wrong; many of us were. The problem with "extrapolating present trends into the future," a la "If This Goes On...", is that complex matters get oversimplified. There is never just one (or one set) of trends; it's impossible to know the twists and turns these trends will take, or how they will interact. And unexpected developments (social, technological) keep turning up to confound the prognosticators. Science fiction rarely offers accurate predictions; it's much better at warnings about trends to be avoided (like 1984). Bootlegs: Anyone who thinks classical music hasn't been bootlegged is ignorant of the facts. A friend of mine (Steve Smolian) compiled a massive list of bootleg recordings for the Library of Congress at least ten years ago (maybe longer), the vast majority of which were in fact classical. Classical music was the first music to be bootlegged, and the most commonly bootlegged were radio broadcasts of orchestras in live performance - something less common now (outside NYC), but very common from the 20's through the 60's. Many classical bootlegs are of incredible historical importance, especially those of early-20th Century opera singers who were never (or rarely) legitimately recorded, or whose legitimately recorded work did not overlap that which was bootlegged. In addition to performance boots, there were (and perhaps still are) small collector labels devoted to putting on LP (and maybe now on CD) long out-of-print recordings (cylinders, 78's) ignored by the major labels who hold the rights - sometimes legally, and sometimes not. (Another friend of mine, Les Gerber, owns one such label, Parnasis Records [which I think I just misspelled], operating it out of his home in Woodstock, the house known as Big Pink....) The point in all this is not the composers, who may well be centuries dead, but the performers. They are the ones who lose out to bootlegs, gaining no royalties. Classical musicians are not well-paid, and need those royalties. (Classical music is not dying, either in composition or performance, and living composers need to eat too.) I might add that jazz has also been bootlegged. Radio broadcasts (from Birdland, in the sixties, on AM radio) have been bootlegged, and so have many concert performances. (Charles Mingus' 1964 European tour - with Eric Dolphy - has been exhaustive documented with unauthorized recordings. Like Zappa and KC, Mingus' estate - in the person of his last wife, Sue Graham Mingus - has started appropriating these boots and reissuing them.) There is a subgroup of boot labels devoted to issuing the radio broadcasts of 30's and 40's Big Bands (jazz and sweet) for the collectors' market. Many of these operate in the "gray area" of public domain recordings, and appear in large record stores (Tower, Planet Music/Borders). As a creative artist, I am morally opposed to bootlegs. (It's exactly as if a publisher put out one of my books without paying me - which has happened to me twice.) But as a fan and collector, I prize those bootlegs which document important (to me) performances - and it would appear that some of those "documents" have been of major use to Fripp & Co - like those used for EPITAPH. So I find myself in a quandary - like many of us here, I suspect. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:48:19 -0600 (CST) From: flaherty michael w Subject: London shows; Sinfield 1. Like Bill Benett, I cannot possibly be in London in December and would love to hear these shows. I hope some recordings of the different groups that Mr. Fripp has listed are made available. Those of you who don't like improvisational music could, believe it or not, simply decline to purchase them. One becomes a collector through one's own choice. In the meantime, I look forward to reading ETer reviews of these shows. 2. Yes, it's the same Peter Sinfield. As most of you know, Bryan Ferry was once considered for KC, and of course this album features a guy named Eno. (How's that for Fripp connections?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 17:11:29 -0600 From: "Chris 'Coz' Costello" Subject: KC and the Chicago Tribune Someone brought this up a couple of ET's ago... > >The Chicago Tribune of 19 October 1997 includes a listing of "essential" > >rock recordings. The list includes KC's (a small surprise) "Red" (a big > >surprise). The recording is hailed as "progressive rock's finest hour." > >It's funny how much smarter rock critics seem when they say something you > >agree with--especially something as unexpected as a daily paper praising > >"Red". If you read the Trib regularly, you may notice that their main rock critic, Greg Kot, is definitely a Crimson fan. He wrote an absolutely *gushing* review of their THRAK show at the Bismarck Theater. He also seems to appreciate Zappa more than I would have figured. I've only met him once, but he seems like a nice enough guy. Obviously, he's the one who wrote the "essentials" article as well. I think _Red_ also has a certain amount of "indie cred" in alt-rock circles. I seem to remember the late Kurt Cobain mentioning it as an album that he liked a lot. Later, COZ -- +-- | Chris 'Coz' Costello / "Hipness is transient. You have to | http://www.tezcat.com/~coz / change in order to be continually | coz at tezcat dot com / hip." - Vinnie Colaiuta | ---+ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 23:27:01 UT From: "William Hearne" Subject: Remasters - Gems not Gyps David MacLennan's post in ET #432 is a subject I addressed a few issues ago [ET# 425 -' Re-Remasters - make them worth the money!' ] I suggested that the next generation of remasters include informative, lengthy liner notes. I was dazed and delighted when my comments coaxed a private e-mail from RF who was not exactly enthralled by my comments. RF asked 'on what basis' I assumed he wanted me to buy the KC catalogue again, and informed me that it is a more intelligent assumption that the catalogue is being prepared for a new generation of listeners ('different level of expectation and listening experience; changing level of technology & listening practice') rather than to entice current listeners to do something 'dopey' like buy albums we already own. [Note: this was not RF's entire response, but I believe an accurate description of it] I. My initial reaction (to use RF's own phrase) was, 'Why was Robert's 'tude a little pissy?' [ RF's post in ET#432]. I responded to RF's questions, and received a few additional comments which did not altogether address my request for value-adding 'goodies' other than to point out that the KC catalog is owned by Virgin/EMI. It is my impression that like most reasonable people, RF does not appreciate erroneous assumptions about his motives, particularly where there is no real basis in fact. II. I am not sure RF's aim includes expending too much time 'stifling complaints,' but perhaps he will speak on the subject at some point. RF tends to be laconic, but not uncommunicative. I found that answering RF's questions posed to me was probably more informative than getting direct answers to my questions. Have I experienced first hand RF's 'devilishly clever use of the Socractic Dialectic'?! III. I never assumed the upcoming remasters were a Virgin-RF ruse to get my money. As a consumer /enthusiast / fan I simply want more Crimso information, and I am certainly willing to pay for it. If the mere act of expressing my wants is arrogance, then I'm guilty. IV. I believe I read in 'Stereo Review' magazine that when the Definitive Editions were being released years ago, RF was charged by the 'real record company' with the cost of improving the original releases. The sonic improvements inured to the customers' benefit. To me that suggests RF was not motivated to simply 'cash in' last time. RF still does not own these titles - why would his motives differ now? V. I understand RF's position to be that with the exception of sonic improvement, demands for 'value adding' are demands he is 'not prepared to meet.' Thus, Virgin/EMI - not Fripp/DGM - are the ones we consumers should badger. The stuff I am after, liner notes, etc., are not to my knowledge exclusively controlled by RF. In any event, I am reasonably certain RF can't be badgered. Given the right time, place and person, and subject to necessity, RF might make concessions, but the chances of ET posters' desires filling that bill are remote. VI. DGM (as opposed to Virgin/EMI) releases typically are 'value-packed,'- 'Epitaph' is an example, particularly for the surprisingly low price. Again, why impute the contrary to RF? VII. Unless you subscribe to the theory that RF has enervated our souls by means of the Cosmic Musical Force channeled through the invocation of white-magic, in theory the next generation of remasters will not be a rip-off, if for no other reason than the fact that we are under no external compulsion to buy them. VIII. The next generation of remasters might be a rip-off if something promised is not delivered - but that can only be evaluated post-release. However, history would suggest that the next generation of remasters will be gems, not gyps. p.s. David, you referred to us as 'hardened Crimheads.' I would prefer to be referred to as a die-hard Crimhead, notwithstanding that I might be hard-heade d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:55:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: USA on CD (WARNING!) vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) wrote in issue #432 that he had spotted USA already on CD with bonus tracks. Bear in mind that that is a BOOTLEG version of the album, and has nothing to do with DGM. Part of the reason the album is to be released is to thwart bootleggers like the one CD mentioned. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 04:03:44 UT From: "donald chin" Subject: '73-74 KC Concert Recordings After reading what seems like one too many postings from ETers who feel that there is a more than desirable amount of concert recordings from the '73-'74 lineup recently released, I felt compelled to write and present a view from a Crimhead at the other end of the spectrum, lest Messrs. Fripp and Singleton get the idea that we all feel this way. As a Crimhead living in New York who probably has more of an opportunity to acquire KC boots (and has) I say 'MORE MORE MORE!' Just as I feel that "Epitaph" makes up for there not being a second LP from the '69 band, concert tapes from the "73 band make up in a way for there only being 3 studio albums. This may sound crazy, but I really would like to possess a recording of every show the LTIA band did. Each show that I have heard is different. A while back I mentioned discussing the 'Manhattan' improv from the '74 Central Park show with Mr. Fripp at the Epitaph playback. This piece is simply stunning, and I wonder how many other improvisational gems there are from that period waiting to see the light of day. To those who say we have been given enough material from this period, I can only think that if you could hear "Manhattan" and other improvs (not to mention the shows in their entirety) you would surely change your minds. Imagine if DGM announced that they had unearthed a long-lost album from Messrs Fripp, Wetton, Bruford, Cross & Muir that had never been released. That is exactly what I feel is out there with '73 KC tapes, currently available only as bootlegs (and a Crimhead's only avenue of slaking their thirst - hint hint to somebody...). I eagerly await the 'Night Watch' release and hope that there is more to come ( yeah USA!) For me the Holy Grail would be rehearsal tapes from the "Red" sessions when Ian McDonald was about to rejoin the band. If these don't exist, then Steve Hackett's Japan shows will have to do, I suppose. Okay, enough for now from this admitted lunatic. Any comments? Donald Chin dc at msn dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 22:47:17 -0700 From: Herb Heinz Subject: Amy X Neuburg & Men NW tour A very unusual band which features Chapman Stick (and some even more bizarre instruments), which promises to play their infamous *King Crimson cover* at each show. Check it out. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > AMY X NEUBURG & MEN http://www.isproductions.com/amy/band.shtml > electronic cabaret art-rock > > play in Seattle and Portland > > ************************* > > TUES NOV 11 -- OK HOTEL -- 212 Alaskan Way -- Seattle -- 10 pm (2 > sets) > > WED NOV 12 -- BORDER BOOKS & MUSIC -- 1501 4th Ave -- Seattle -- call > (206) 622-6799 for time > > FRI NOV 14 -- BERBATI=92S PAN -- 231 SW Ankeny -- Portland -- 10 pm > > SAT NOV 15 -- THE BEAN -- 1720 12th -- Portland -- 9 pm (2 sets) > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > A Manly Mayhem of Many Musics performed on bizarre electronic > instruments, with Lots of Lordly Leaping about and Thilly Theatrics. > > starring, in order of altitude: > > Herb Heinz -- guitar, vocals > JT Quillan III -- vocals, antics, hair > Micah Ball -- Chapman stick, vocals > Joel Davel -- electronic mallets and Lightning motion sensor, vocals > Amy X Neuburg -- lead vocals, electronic drums > > ++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Real actual quotes, to entice you further: > > > ...music whose intensity, complexity and accessibility are matched by > > few...begin with Frank Zappa... Laurie Anderson would be proud.- > Musician > > Try putting ketchup, bananas, fruit loops and cream cheese on your > next hamburger...Gosh, I think this was _Art_ - Addicted to Noise > > ...could be the soundtrack to an as-yet-unmade film from the next > millennium...downright out there. - East Bay Express > > [Neuburg is] America's answer to Kate Bush. - Keyboard > > ...a Sheila E. for the digital age. - BAM > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > TO BE UNMISSED!!!! __________ Herb Heinz herb at isproductions dot com http://www.isproductions.com ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #433 ********************************