Elephant Talk #432 (as text)

4 November 1997



Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997
From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator)
Hi everyone.

First an apology for the lateness of this edition of ET. I've had flu, plus
our recent move of house has brought with it all kinds of fun that has
soaked up my time and energy. But we're on the home straight now (pun
intended).

Second: many, many, warm thanks to everyone who has responded with offers
of help and advice for re-hosting ETWeb at a new site. I hope everyone has
had a personal response from either myself or Dan the WebMaster. If not,
please forgive us. We're very grateful for your input. When we have
something to announce, we will.

Cheers to everyone

Toby

Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:59:15 -0500
From: Discipline Global Mobile <73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com>
Subject: News update from Fripp, shameless marketing weasel that he is...
DGM World Central,
PO Box 1533,
SALISBURY,
Wiltshire, SP5 5ER.
UK.
(44)1722 781042: fax
73064 dot 1470 at compusserve dot com

November 3rd. 1997.

Dear Team,

I

        News update from Fripp, shameless marketing weasel that he is...

PROJEkCT ONE

Bill Bruford
Robert Fripp
Trey Gunn
Tony Levin

        PROJEkCT ONE, at the Jazz Cafe, London, Monday - Thursday 1-4th.
December 1997, is the first King Crimson sub-group project of several
planned. The music is improvised and there are no prior rehearsals,
although we plan to meet the afternoon before and see if the equipment
works after being flown in from the US.

        projeKct two is rehearsing at Adrian's in Nashville beginning
November 20th. It is likely to make its debut in Nashville in the second
half of February 1998. The personnel is Adrian, Fripp & Gunn.

        PROJECkT THREE has begun by Pat Mastelotto sending me a CD of his
rhythmic suggestions. (Very interesting is the dance version of "Pie
Jesu"). The personel is Fripp, Gunn & Mastelotto.

        On the afternoon of Saturday 6th. December (14.30 - 17.00) there is
a Soundscapes performance in Newlyn Church, Cornwall, with artwork by John
Miller and Peter Willis, to benefit a local special needs learning group
which has had its funding cut. The group will perform following the
Soundscapes.

        The following day John Sinks, FOH and equipment tech, and myself
fly to Alexandria, Virginia, for a short tour of Soundscapes on the East
Coast. These are billed as:

Fripp Alone - An Evening of Space Music

The confirmed dates are:

        Wed. 10 Dec.    Alexandria, VA   Birchmere
        Thur. 11 Dec.   Philadelphia, PA  Painted Bride Arts Center
        Fri. 12 Dec.    Philadelphia, PA  Painted Bride Arts Center
        Sat. 13 Dec.    New York, NY    Bottom Line

        It is likely that Boston will be added shortly.

II

        In ET 431 Mark J. writes of his close encounter of the Fripp kind.
Mark writes:

        "After the set was over, I called to (Fripp), but, like RF is want
(sic) to do he ran off. Now I don't even know if he heard me (but how could
be not) but it did piss me off a little. After all, he was someone that I
had spoken with before. I didn't want an autograph or to tell him how great
his soundboard work was, nor that it has changed my life. Aim or no Aim,
I'd rather he acknowledged me by saying that he needed to rush off or even
telling me to get lost. I sincerely hope I never behave like that".

         This is an informative and revealing posting which usefully
contributes to the ongoing subject of performer / audience relations and,
in my view, merits attention and discussion.

        Would Mark be kind enough to reply to these questions:

Mark J: Now I don't even know if he heard me (but how could be not) but it
did piss me off a little.
RF:             Why was Mark's 'tude a little pissy?

Mark J: After all, he was someone that I had spoken with before.
RF:             What bearing does this have on our (non) encounter?

Mark J: I didn't want an autograph or to tell him how great his soundboard
work was, nor that it has changed my life.
RF:             What did Mark intend to say?

Mark J: Aim or no Aim, I'd rather he acknowledged me by saying that he
needed to rush off or even telling me to get lost.
RF:             Why did Mark require acknowledgement?

Mark:   I sincerely hope I never behave like that.
RF:             How is "that"?

        Best wishes,

        Robert.

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:38:45 -0500 (EST)
From: DanKirkd at aol dot com
Subject: #ElephantTalk IRC Chat Channel on Undernet
Well I think I've worked out some of the details I wanted thanks to
some help from interested ETers.

I'd like to set the following schedule for now:

WHEN:
Sunday 3pm EST/ 8pm GMT
Monday 9pm EST/ 2am GMT

WHERE:
Server: Undernet (connect to any Undernet server)
Channel: #ElephantTalk   (no spaces)

There is nothing to stop people from meeting there at other times, but the
above times should help more of us come together at one time.

The idea is that this can be a place to chat about issues that have been
banned in ET, or are better addressed in open discussion, or whatever.  We
could have specific debates about digital/analog, or bootlegging for
example.  We might also try to get a few guest attendees like the Artist
Shop has done (once we get a hang of things better).

I suggest that anyone not familiar with IRC go to http://www.mirc.co.uk/
and download the mIRC program.  With a little playing around you will
sonn get the hang of it.  We can always spend some time helping newbies
out online as well (learn as you go).  I suggest you look into the basic IRC
commands and into creating "aliases" to speed up typing them in (although
the mIRC tool helps a lot with commands too.)

Anyway, hopefully we'll see some more ETers at subsequent gatherings.

Cheers!

Dan
ET Web

From: "Douglas Robillard" <drobillard at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Slouching Towards Apocalypse
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:35:32 PDT
Dear ET,

It was with great interest that I read Eric J. Thorson's explication of
Peter Gabriel's "Here Comes the Flood" in ET #429.  After all, flood is a
traditional symbol of the End of the Civilization (as we know it)--one need
look no further than the story of Noah in Genesis. And don't forget Louis
XIV's famous remark, "Apres moi, le deluge!" which foreshadowed the French
Revolution.  So floods--whether of telepathy, water, or political
upheaval--are fitting images for the destruction and dislocation associated
with apocalypse.  Don't forget that the Book of Daniel and the Book of
Revelation contain images of floods.

It is interesting to note that there is a long-standing apocalyptic strain
in King Crimson's music.  We need look no further than the doomy lyrics of
"Epitaph" and "In the Wake of Poseidon."  The music reinforces the
impression made by Sinfield's lyrics.

Robert Fripp's own utterances also reveal a concern with apocalypse.  I've
long been interested in the predictions for the 1990s he made back in 1974,
as an explanation for breaking up the band.  Consequently, I'm glad to see
that the complete 1974 Melody Maker interview with Fripp recently turned up
on the ET website; hitherto, I'd only read the excerpts published in the
YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE booklet.

I think it's possible to see Fripp as a latter-day apocalyptic when he
discusses the transition from the "old world to the new."  Consider his
statement from 1974: "The transition will reach it's [sic] most marked
point in the years 1990 to 1999.  Within that period, there will be the
greatest friction and, unless there are people with a certain education,
we could see the complete collapse of civilisation as we know it and a
period of devastation which could last, maybe, 300 years."  He concedes
that if the world readies itself for this transition, "there will be a
period of 30 or 40 years which will make the Depression of the Thirties
look like it was a Sunday outing."

Fripp's remarks of twenty years ago are worth reconsidering, not just
because we are currently living through this dire decade, but because
millennial thinking has become a growth industry; this is a response to the
approach of January 1, 2000 (or, more properly, January 1, 2001, the real
beginning of the next millennium).  This week's "Chronicle of Higher
Education" contains a fascinating article on the recent spate of college
textbooks and courses devoted to the End of Time.  Boston University has
even established a Center for Millennial Studies!  And, just in the last
month, Stephen Jay Gould has published his own contribution to contemporary
apocalyptic literature, QUESTIONING THE MILLENNIUM.  (Haven't see it, but I
gather that Dr. Gould roundly debunks the notion of apocalypse.)

I think Fripp has proven to be a fairly good prognosticator.  I don't think
we've witnessed quite the level of devastation he predicted, but this
decade has brought about great change and a certain amount of dislocation:
consider the dissolution of the Soviet Union, for instance, or the
world-wide economic disruption caused by that Neeson chap in Hong Kong.
These events might perhaps be construed as the death-throes of the
"dinosaur civilization" that Fripp envisioned.

During this decade, we have seen our share of apocalyptic figures here in
the U.S.: the self-immolation of the Branch Davidians, the mass suicide of
the Heaven's Gate cult, and the bombing in Oklahoma City by Timothy
McVeigh, a man who certainly views himself as an agent of violent,
destructive change.

And lo and behold, recently President Clinton has urged public concern
over global warming, with its consequent threat of rising sea levels:
it's none other than our old nemesis, the Flood, returning to haunt us.
Think about that as you listen again to the excerpt from J.G. Bennett
that prefaces the version of "Here Comes the Flood" on Fripp's EXPOSURE
album.

No, I am not claiming that Fripp is a divinely-inspired prophet.  He
strikes me as a bright, perspicacious fellow who is capable of looking
beyond the present moment and extrapolating present trends into the future.
One of Robert A. Heinlein's story titles perfectly captures this
speculative tendency: "If This Goes On. . ."

I'll leave the final word to W.B. Yeats:

     And what rough beast,its hour come round at last,
     Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

All the best,  Doug

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (Grant Colburn)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 23:33:19 -0500
Subject: Bootlegging... Classical vs. Rock
        I'd like to offer a quick thought about this subject that I don't
think has been mentioned in earlier posts. To me the real reason rock
musicians worry about bootlegging more than classical ones is because the
writers of the classical music are......dead, dead, DEAD!!!!  When you go
to a King Crimson show the composer of "Red" is present and playing and
ALIVE! There are no decendents of J.S. Bach or Mozart getting royalties
from a performance of their works. Like Frank Zappa said in his
autobiography the problem with classical orchestras playing new
compositions is that living composers expect to be PAID. If you bootleg
Beethoven's 5th, Beethoven ain'ta gittin' nuttin' anyway. Living composers
live on the music they write, and in rock more importantly on what they
record. Unlike classical most rock music is not written down, it only
exists in live and recorded performance.

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:25:26 -0400
From: bullj1 at Westat dot com (BULLJ1)
Subject: Smith, Tamm & technique
     In ET427, Alfred Smith asks where to get a copy of the Tamm book in
     order to work on his guitar playing technique.  Remember, Robert asked
     Tamm not to write that book ... AS would be much better off actually
     attending a Guitar Craft course.  Not only would he get information
     from the horse's mouth, there is some information that can only be
     transmitted in person.  If AS cannot attend a GC course, I'd next
     recommend Robert's series of ('94?) articles in Guitar Player.

     Joan Bull     bullj1 at westat dot com

     P.S.  To add my personal emphasis: for god's sake, use a metronome!

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:12:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com
Subject: David, not Bill; prog fruit
I previously wrote:

>It seems safe to assume at this point that Bill Singleton's info on the
source of the _USA_ performances is correct.

Apologies to *David* Singleton for crediting his remarks to someone named
Bill!

Meanwhile, Ken Lacouture wrote:

>"Crimson King Motel" The logo above the name was a red maple
>leaf, so apparently they were thinking more of atumnal splendor than the
>Prince of Darkness.

I was once shown a wooden fruit crate which had contained "Crimson King"
brand strawberries.  (Or was it tomatoes?  Or...?)

Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew     @}-`--}----
Visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html

From: "Heilbronner, Michael" <mheilbronner at kilstock dot com>
Subject: Belew Wordplay and Speculation
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:53:00 -0400
"Marc I Roemer"<marc_i_roemer_at_dsd at ccMail dot Census dot GOV> wrote . . .

    > With all due respect to Adrian the guitarist, I'm still hoping for
    > Peter Hammill to take over the vocalist job some day. Apparently
Fripp
     >has some reservations about Adrian too; he asked David Sylvian to
join
     >the 90s Crimson before asking Adrian.

_Assuming_ arguendo that Fripp asked Sylvian to joing the 90s Crimson
before asking Adrian, what makes you think that means Fripp has or had any
reservations about Belew?  It could mean a number of things, or it may mean
nothing.  Perhaps Fripp intended to invite both into the band.  Perhaps he
had a different conception of the then-fledgling version of the band at the
time, and that conception entailed a Sylvian instead of a Belew.  Perhaps
we have no idea why Fripp did what he did (assuming he did it).

How do you know what Fripp was thinking and why he thought it?  This is
the kind of nonsense that leads to unfounded rumors; mundane arguments
about Adrian's appropriateness in the band; and other speculation.

From: "Rob Taylor-Manning" <robtayman at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Tamm/Eno
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:08:33 PDT
For those interested in the reprinted Tamm/Eno book, I saw it for sale on
the Powell's (Portlnd, OR) website.  They only had one copy, but if it
sells i'm sure they will obtain more.  It also seems you could get it from
amazon.com if it is in print.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From: "Stevenson; David A" <STEVENDA at Cobleskill dot edu>
Subject: Jon Anderson: Prince Rupert Awakes
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:18:09 -0400
	On 10/21 I got a chance to see Jon Anderson perform and answer
questions at Border's Books and Music in Albany, New York.  Jon was
promoting his new solo album while touring with Yes.  He showed up with his
wife and talked about how his new album was made and inspired.  After a
song, Jon asked if there were any questions.  I asked about Jon's guest on
Prince Rupert Awakes off of Crimso's Lizard, and if Fripp courted him to
join the Crimson King (excuse the pun).  Jon answered no (I know Yes
courted Fripp), and then explained why he sang on Lizard.  Jon said that he
used to wait for the train to school, and either the train or the conductor
was named Prince Rupert.  When he was asked to lend vocals, he readily
agreed.
	There were at least 100 people in a very crowded area, and Jon was very
patient, amicable, and full of humor.  That night, needless to say, I
saw an excellent show by Yes at the Palace Theatre.  See Notes From The
Edge for the setlist and reviews.  If anyone has a chance to see Yes
this tour I highly recommend it.
	By the way, there are lots of Crimson fans here in the Albany area, and
it makes me wonder if Crimson could stop at the Palace Theatre.  Good
sound, 2000+ seater, and near Tony's house (approx. 2 hrs.)

David Stevenson

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:19:56 -0400
From: alan s cohen <i000371 at disch3 dot disc dot dla dot mil>
Subject: Can you help me??
Hopefully someone out there can help me. I'm travelling from the U.S. to
see ProjeKct One, and I figured as long as I was in the neighbourhood, I
may as well see the Soundscapes show in Cornwall. It turns out that
Cornwall is a 5 hour train ride from London, and the only night that
British Rail doesn't run sleeping cars back to London is Saturday. And I
leave for home on Sunday. So I was wondering if there were any Londoners
going to the concert heading back that same night. I'd be willing to help
out with expenses, of course.

Or perhaps someone can tell me how long it would take to drive, in case I
decide to rent a car.

Thanks a lot.

Oh boy...

Alan

*-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i000371 sends (alan cohen)...

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:41:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: KnKreutzer at aol dot com
Subject: Was that Adrian Belew or Adrienne Barbeau?
In ET #431, Marc I. Roemer writes of Adrian Belew:

"I think since around the time of 'Oh Daddy,' he's had it in his head to
become a big star, and to that end, he's been writing lyrics he thinks are
more mainstream."

Hmmm...let's see...would this be the same Adrian Belew whose most recent
releases include *The Guitar as Orchestra* and *Op Zop Too Wah*?

If what the chap's really interested in is being a "big star," then he's in
need of some *serious* advice!

Kenneth Kreutzer     Kent, Ohio
http://members.aol.com/knkreutzer/home.htm

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:30:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Damon Mahon <damon dot mahon at yale dot edu>
Subject: Red + newspapers
>The Chicago Tribune of 19 October 1997 includes a listing of "essential"
>rock recordings.  The list includes KC's (a small surprise) "Red" (a big
>surprise).  The recording is hailed as "progressive rock's finest hour."
>It's funny how much smarter rock critics seem when they say something you
>agree with--especially something as unexpected as a daily paper praising
>"Red".
>

This is interesting.  In a May Bergen (County, NJ) Record article, they
were reviewing "the 200 most overrated rock albums of all time" (a
counterpart to the 200 greatest list from Rolling Stone.)  To my great
annoyance, Red was one of the 200 listed ("pretentious riffs" were cited)
along with (among others, some of which were deserving, others not) Captain
Beefheart's Trout Mask Replica, and Zappa's Shut Up and Play Yer Guitar
(the reviewer's comment: "On second thought, just shut up.")

Cheers.  Here's to all those new releases mentioned inn the last ET.

-Damon

From: "Andy Gower" <agower at netcom dot ca>
Subject: Singleton/Night Watch/Releases/Eno book/Complaint
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 19:16:24 -0700
Numerous short commentaries for short attention spans.

1. Thanks to David Singleton for clarifying the USA debate. I was querying
the pending release of USA, becuase Fripp had already declared that the
whole album (save Asbury Park) was available on The Great Deceiver. Why
rerelease it? Now it all seems to make sense. Fripp has stated before that
he thought the Asbury Park show was a historical event and obviously he
made false proclamations about USA to throw people off the
scent. Unfortunately, ETers are too smart for that as the previous weeks of
discussion indicate.

2. Why do North Americans have to wait till January 4th for The Night
Watch?  US dollars not good enough for ya, Bobby! But seriously, can anyone
think of a reason for the delay? Speculation: he wants to get online
ordering in North America set up before putting it on sale, the packaging
is expensive and requires months of preparation and they didn't print a
large enough run the first time, or Fripp wants to make us sweat a little.

3. Impending releases:

Fripp/Collins/Burrell/Wallace live - Fripp has said many good things about
Mel's sax work on Earthbound. I have never heard it, so I'll take his word
for it. It's going to be neat hearing Fripp work with a band that really
seemed to have it in for him afterwards. Happy artists are rarely inventive
artists.

Fripp/Cross/Wetton/Bruford/Muir - Muir's percussion doesn't really make a
dent on me with his LTIA recordings so hopeully this album would shine some
more light on his contributions to KC.

Fripp/Cross/Wetton/Bruford - No rush. We got plenty of this already.

Fripp/Belew/Levin/Bruford - I look forward to this very much. I find KC's
80s work a little restrained so this should prove me wrong.

Fripp/Belew/Gunn/Levin/Bruford/Mastelotto - Suggestion: release a new studio
album before releasing this live album. If I hear anymore versions of THRaK,
I may be sick.

Fripp/Lydon/Strummer/Ramone/Gotobed - Hah! You guys actually thought KC
wasn't active during the punk era in the late 70s. Shame on you!

4. Thanks to those who provided info on Tamm's Eno book. Eno's Year Of
Swollen Appendices was throughly interesting. I can't believe how damn
creative he his. His weak ideas kick the ass of my great ones.

5. Would people please try and keep their posts short? Some of us don't
have all day to sit in front of the computer. ;-)

[ Re point number 5: Andy bravely says what your smiling moderator would  
  never dare to. :-) Posts of twenty words or less are
  especially welcome  -- Toby ]  


Andy Gower
Doin' everything the hard way.

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 04:04:55 BST
From: rtf_pjm at shsu dot edu
Subject: Re: Frisk Me
>>Bootlegging is clearly not a problem in classical music, therefore
>>there is
>>no need to frisk the audience. Bootlegging is clearly a big problem in
>>rock, therefore you get frisked. Want to stop the frisking? Eliminate
>>bootlegging.

>If relative financial effects are supposedly the motivation, this causal
>relationship breaks down quickly.

>The classical music market (performance and ancillaries) is and has been
>in a deep recession for quite a few years...Therefore, bootlegging the
>>relatively smaller number of classical artists in that field to an even
>smaller >market would suggest you'd end up with greater relative negative
>market effects >for any given
>classical artist or label. So, if money really was the reason, wouldn't
>search-and-seizure at the opera house door actually be *more* likely
>than at the arena?

No. There is no money to made bootlegging classical music.  If there was,
then your theory might hold up. But, when the demand for a classical
bootleg is virtually nonexistent, there is no desire to fulfill the demand
and therefore bootleggers are not enticed by classical music concerts
because there is no money in it.  Symphony Orchestras across the U.S.
haven't been shutting down because of the high profit margin.

Secondly, frisking is not solely the result of audio bootleggers.  Security
tends to look for other contraban as well... which you are even less likely
to find at a classical concert (in part because they serve alcohol at the
wet bar befroe the concert and during intermission - and because many of
the patrons have legal perscription drugs).

- Paul

----------------

Album of the Week: RENAISSANCE @ THE ROYAL ALBERT HALL PART I (King Biscuit)
He Would Have Turned 80 This Week: Dizzy Gillespie
Rest In Peace: Brian Pillman

"People don't just bump into each other and have sex.  This isn't Cinemax."
- Jerry Seinfeld

"I am still stuck on the idea and belief that prison is a place for
punishment, not for a new start.  We should not be giving them resources to
better themselves.  They need to better their own self (sic) after they are
out of prison." - A newspaper editorial written by a Sam Houston State
University student reinforcing the Texas stereotype.

---------------

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:33:08 -0600
From: daniel farris <vividindex at earthlink dot net>
Organization: denial recording
Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #431
Emory wrote:

> Waitaminute, it's not even that good: he is saying
> that because SOME people
> may bootleg, they have the right to frisk everyone.
> Surely Daniel can do
> better than this!

I definitely can. They have the right to frisk everyone at any time they
like for whatever reason they like, bootlegging or not.

No one is required to be frisked; one can always leave. I don't exactly
enjoy being frisked at concerts either. For this and other reasons, I
rarely attend concerts. However, when frisked I tend to blame
bootlegging. So I find it curious that you can half-heartedly defend
bootlegging and, in the same breath, complain about being frisked.

Daniel Farris
denial recording
Birmingham Alabama

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 00:14:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com
Subject: '74 Concert Video?
Hey, all
	While watching my copy of "Careful With That Axe," in the sequence
where it shows all the Crimson albums through Red, I noticed a bunch of
footage shown from what looks to be a '73/'74 concert.  The audio from this
tape is not presented, but the video seems to be good quality black and
white.  The only other footage from that KC period I've seen is the
horrible quality (audio and video) version of Easy Money from Black Oak
Arkansas.  Because this looks to be of good quality, I'm very interested in
where it came from and if it is available for purchase.  Please! Help me
find a copy!  If anyone knows where to find this tape please email me at
WrongWayCM at aol dot com

Thanks,
-Colin

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:29:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: Robert Hampton LeGrand III <rhl0940 at cs dot tamu dot edu>
Subject: finding TGD, others
Howdy!  I'm having trouble finding the following CDs:

Gryphon - Red Queen to Gryphon Three
King Crimson - The Great Deceiver: Live 1973-74
Renaissance - Scheherazade and Other Stories
Peter Hammill - Fools Mate
Steve Hillage - Fish Rising
Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom
Univers Zero - UZED

If anyone knows how I could find a new copy of any of these CDs, please let
me know.  Also, feel free to warn me against any of them that isn't worth
the search.  Thanks!

                                                        _ _
Rob LeGrand III      Texas A&M      computer science   | | |
robl at tamu dot edu        Zips 1998      progressive rock   | | |   cricket
http://http.tamu.edu/~rhl0940/      Republican Party   | | |

Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 20:17:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Mikewyz at aol dot com
Subject: things
Possible Productions' phone number in America is 213-937-3194.
fax # 213-937-9102.  ah, if only they'd open a retail store in Hollywood....

re: sampling
<<Consider sampling (particularly as extensively used in Rap). At its worst,
its pretty much a rip off (MC Hammer?) >>

actually, Hammer gave people he sampled from, such as Rick James, cowriting
credits.  This gives them more $$ than the usual practice, which is a flat
fee.  I think we can give (currently bankrupt horse owner) Hammer some
credit for sharing like that.  but not much else credit.

re: Definitive editions in the software industry, there's a saying that
bugs aren't bugs if you put them in the instruction manual.  Then, they
become "features."  perhaps the changes in the Definitive Editions are
things that Fripp now wants.  Or maybe he'd say that to cover his booty.
but aren't these start up notes are only "bad" because they weren't heard
that way originally?  to me, perfection isn't always "good."  (hm, lo-fi
Crim?)

re: record club crim Methinks there aren't any Crim albums in the record
clubs because artists recieve ZERO royalties from those sales.  How else do
you think they can afford to sell 12 for a penny or whatever?  leave Top 40
albums for record clubs.

/\/\
    \/\/

From: "Gustavo Enriquez." <pcgeonline at houseware dot com dot ar>
Subject: CDs on sale from Argentina
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 07:00:52 -0300
Fellow ETers:

I'm putting on sale my following CDs:

1 PROMETHEUS (Steve Ball / Pat Mastellotto + others)

2 B'Boom - KING CRIMSON (Live in Argentina - Double CD)

3 Ghost Dance - GILES.MUIR.CUNNINGHAM

4 Last day on earth - JOHN CALE

5 Canaxis - HOLGER CZUKAY ( His 1st. Solo Release)

6 2nd. Edition - P.I.L.

7 Monster - REM

8 12 Picks - ACE FREHLEY

If you're interested, please contact pcgeonline at houseware dot com dot ar  . I'm
hearing your offers

Gustavo Enriquez
Buenos Aires - Argentina.

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 11:30:08 -0500
From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen)
Subject: Spotted: USA on CD
Hi all

Spotted a CD of USA in the East Village in NYC. It had the 6 tracks from
the original but the cover had a diagonal banner in the corner announced,
"contains 4 bonus tracks". The cover was a rather faithful recreation of
the original(good color reproduction; clean print job), but nowhere on the
case was any indication of who released this(maybe Japanese?). The only
info provided is that the four bonus tracks are from the Pittsburgh show
(that are on the TGD box set). Night Watch; Great Deceiver; don't remember
the other 2. The price tag: FIFTY BUCKS!!! Too rich for my blood. Went back
the next day(not to buy, but to clarify my info)...GONE! Ah, what a
desperate bunch we Crimheads are!

CV(who now need The Night Watch more than ever!)

If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people
this is no obstacle to work. -- J.G. Bennett

Catch "Forever Knight" on the Sci-Fi Channel every
Mon-Thurs at 9PM and 1AM EDT. -- Lucien LaCroix

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 15:00:11 CST
From: "Eric Anderson" <eric1 at carthage dot edu>
Subject: Easy Money footage
In response to Jonathan Casey's post in ET #431:
>At one point, they
>are discussing Bill Bruford's departure from the band, and a clip of >King
Crimson playing Easy Money is shown.
<snip>
>I wonder how much footage
>was on the original promotional film, does anyone know that sort of >thing,
or does anyone have it ?

I believe that this is the same footage that appears at the end of the
Robert Fripp String Quintet LaserDisc/Video. The sound isn't that great,
but leaves you thirsting for more video footage of that group. It would be
wonderful if DGM did actually have some French TV footage that they could
release of that group, outside of Muir's live contributions, it's about all
they have left to document, from the Wetton/Cross era.

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 15:12:59 CST
From: "Eric Anderson" <eric1 at carthage dot edu>
Subject: Belew or Sylvian?
In ET #431 Marc Roemer wrote:

>With all due respect to Adrian the guitarist, I'm still hoping for Peter
>Hammill to take over the vocalist job some day. Apparently Fripp has 
>some reservations about Adrian too; he asked David Sylvian to join the 
>90s Crimson before asking Adrian.

Are you sure about Sylvian being asked before Adrian? Where did you
read/hear about this? I think that Sylvian was considered in addition to
Belew, not as a replacement, but Trey Gunn was eventually invited/accepted
because of his versatility and musical range.

Personally, I don't see anyone taking Adrian's place unless Adrian wants to
leave it. And I hope he doesn't. His contrast to Fripp's guitaring, and his
versatile writing and immaculate singing make him more than perfect for the
job. Plus, he's a terrific frontman, he does the little things that make a
concert an enjoyable visual experience as well as auditory.

Continue THRaKKiNG and projecKting,
Eric

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:55:53 -0500
From: "Robert L. LaDuca" <rlladuca at rs01 dot kings dot edu>
Organization: King's College
Subject: KC signed CD auction to benefit ProgDay
I have in my hands a copy of King Crimson's "B-Boom" double live CD,
autographed by all 6 band members: Robert Fripp, Bill Bruford, Tony Levin,
Adrian Belew, Trey Gunn, Pat Mastelloto.  The auction of this item will
benefit next year's ProgDay.  (In case you're not aware, ProgDay is a two
day outdoor festival of progressive rock held over the Labor Day weekend
near Chapel Hill, North Carolina).

The current high bid is $30.  The auction will run until Monday 11/10/97
at 5 pm EST.

Please respond via email with your bids.
Long live progressive rock!
Support ProgDay and keep live prog alive!

Peace, Rob

ProgDay Fund
c/o Robert La Duca
58 East Center St.
Shavertown, PA 18708

total received to date:  $360

Subject: PossProd corrections: phone and fax number
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 17:03:47 -0700
From: Brian Arnold <arnold at batnet dot com>
Amy at Possible Productions says:

Our phone number is (213) 937 3194, and our fax number is (213) 937 9102.

- Brian

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:35:49 -0400
From: Matt Thallmayer <mthallmayer at flpsys dot library dot phila dot gov>
Subject: Tamm's book on Eno is available.
I saw the Tamm book on Eno at Tower Records book store here in Philadelphia
not more than a month ago.

--
Mathias Iconoclast

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:39:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: ROBERTP81E at aol dot com
Subject: Books by Eric Tamm
Hi to all,

This is in regards to the recent postings about the two books written by
Eric Tamm.

1) "Robert Fripp - From King Crimson To Guitar Craft" (ISBN 0-571-16289-4)

As far as I know, this book is no longer in the US. However, it is still
available in the UK.

A couple of months ago, John Stevens has kindly shared with all of us ETers
(.... thanks a bunch again John ....) that he was able to get this book from
Faber & Faber in London. I would like to confirm that this is indeed the case
since I was able to get a copy this past August.

The person to contact at Faber & Faber in London is as follows. You can also
reach him by e-mail at steveb at faber dot co dot uk.

Steve Blackburn
Faber & Faber Ltd.
Sales Department
3 Queen Square
London WC1N 3AV
ENGLAND

By the way, the price of the book is UK Pounds 9.99 plus UK Pounds 2.00 for
the Airmail postage fees (to the US). In my opinion, it's a fascinating book.

2) "Brian Eno - His Music And The Vertical Color Of Sound" (ISBN
0-306-80649-5)

As far as I know, the original version of this book by Faber & Faber is no
longer available worldwide. However there is no need to sign a petition
requesting a reprint from Faber & Faber, since this book has been re-edited
in the US by Da Capo Press!

Please note that this new edition is the unabridged republication of the
original edition to which Eric Tamm has added a new epilog, a section on
"Eno on the Internet", and an updated discography/biography. The new
version was edited in 1995 and has the ISBN indicated above.

The price of this book is US$ 14.95. As a side note, I saw a copy of this
excellent book the last time I went to Border Books....

I hope that the above information will be of some help. Have a good read!

Aloha, Robert.

P.S. The address of Da Capo Press, Inc. is:

233 Spring Street
New York, NY 10013
USA

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: DanKirkd at aol dot com
Subject: Possible Productions phone number correction
I'm sorry but I gave out an old PossProd phone number in my ET #430 post.
The correct number is (213) 937 3194

Dan
ET Web

From: David MacLennan <David dot Maclennan at moc dot govt dot nz>
Subject: KC 1998 remasters: a value-adding suggestion
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 15:42:59 +1300
Robert Fripp's announcement that the KC Virgin back catalogue would be
remastered again next year has predictably split ETers into two camps:
those who welcome it (and I count myself among them) and those who think
it's a rip-off.

I agree with the suggestion to add value by including extra tracks.  For
example, a forthcoming Adrian Belew compilation (a 5-CD set?) will include
outtakes from "Beat" and another studio jam from about the same time.  As I
have no real desire to shell out for a Belew box set, why not append these
tracks to their respective KC albums as well?  Then there's the dance mix
of "Sleepless", and the Judy Dyble version of "I Talk to the Wind", both
long unavailable since the respective vinyl versions were deleted.  And you
could stick the studio version of "Groon" on the end of "Poseidon".  There
may well be other outtakes around, and it sounds like there are plenty of
live tapes in Robert's personal collection, so maybe a few selections from
these could be included too, e.g. a live version of "Doctor Diamond" on the
end of "LTiA" or "S&BB".

Many reissue programmes have done this, for example David Bowie and
Miles Davis.  In the case of Miles, they have not only added extra
tracks to the latest SBM remasters but further added value by including
excellent new liner notes and photos, while still managing to retail
them at mid-price.

I would strongly urge Robert Fripp and Virgin/EMI to do the same with the
next-generation KC remasters.  It might stifle some of the complaints from
fans unwilling to shell out for a third round of remasters, as well as
offering a real incentive to buy them for both hardened Crimheads and
newbies alike.

Any supporters for such an idea?

David Maclennan

Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:05:06 -0400
From: "Robert C. Parducci" <rcp at compuserve dot com>
Subject: King Crimson Desktop Theme
Windows 95 users will want to grab the King Crimson Desktop Theme created
by Takao Yasuda <t-yasuda at interlink dot or dot jp>.  You will need Windows 95 Plus!
and WinZip or PKUnzip to extract the files.

It features great KC wallpaper and excellent use of audio clips.  The file
is located at:

http://home.interlink.or.jp/~t-yasuda/_private/King_Crimson.zip

This Desktop Themes are made by Cursors, Icons and Great Sound of Big
Progressive Band King Crimson.

YASU no HEYA
http://home.interlink.or.jp/~t-yasuda/

Robert C. Parducci

Email:  legend at popstar dot com
        rcp at compuserve dot com

LEGEND: In Our Own Time
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rcp/

From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" <jweinberger at hotmail dot com>
Subject: King Crimson Tribute CD on E Tape
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:09:18 PDT
Purple Pyramid Records sent a copy of their new "Schizoid Dimensions, A
Tribute to King Crimson" CD to Elephant Tape, and gave permission for
some clips to be posted.  The clips should be up very soon.
   E Tape can be found at:
          http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/
   So far, we have been able to post tracks from all the ETers and
Guitar Craft students who have sent in their music.  If you would like
to appear on E Tape, write for submission information.
--Jeffrey Weinberger
  jweinberger at hotmail dot com

 .

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" <jweinberger at hotmail dot com>
Subject: Tony Levin project, KC tribute on E Tape
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:14:48 PST
  Magna Carta Records sent Elephant Tape a new CD by a trio comprised of
Terry Bozzio, Tony Levin, and Steve Stevens.  You can hear a Real Audio
clip from their "Black Light Syndrome" CD at Elephant Tape:
http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/
    The clips from the new "Schizoid Dimension, A tribute to King
Crimson" are now up at E Tape.  These are clips from a new CD released
by Purple Pyramid Records.
    Those ETers who are involved in the ET KC tribute project were informed
two months ago of an offer to post tribute submissions on E Tape.  This
would provide ETers around the globe with an opportunity to hear the
submissions; and offer their comments regarding the selection, refinement,
and sequencing of tracks.  Several of the tribute participants have
contacted me and indicated that they thought posting the tribute
submissions on Elephant Tape was a good idea.  That offer is still open,
but the tribute clips that are currently posted on E Tape are from a
commercial release, and are in no way related to the ET tribute.
   Write for submission information if you would like your music to
appear on Elephant Tape.

   Jeffrey Weinberger
   http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/

Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:14:28 -0800
From: Michael McGrath <frippless at earthlink dot net>
Subject: Tamm's RF book out of stock
In ET #428, Stewart Murrell & Stuart Nind each make reference to Tamm's
book on Fripp, stating they believed it easily available. According to
Amazon Books, the publisher states it is "out of stock" (out of
print??). Wanted to pass this on. Mike

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:30:19 -0500
From: WILLIAM BANATT F <wbanatt at elux3 dot cs dot umass dot edu>
Subject: PROJEkCT ONE
Dear ET,

I regret to inform you that I will not be able to attend Project One.
Don't let me stop you, though. :)

Are there a lot of crimheads who just can't travel to London for the
December performances? You're not alone.

Why is such cool music happening so far away? I feel teased.

Here's an idea: What if KC released an official bootleg of the
performances?

I'd buy it. We'd all live happily ever after. The End.

	Best Wishes,
	Bill Banatt

Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:42:00 -0800
From: "Dominick_J_DePaolo" <dominick_j_depaolo at parsons dot com>
Subject: Earthbound trade
     Hello Fellow ETers,

     This is Dominick DePaolo from Concord NH USA again.
     This time I'm looking for someone who owns a good copy
     of the "Earthbound" LP who would be willing to make a
     tape trade. I have to hear what that 15 min. version
     of "Groon" sounds like and since I was only 5 yrs. old
     when the album was released, I never got a chance to
     go out and buy it. Thank You
     Please E-mail me at dominick_j_depaolo at parsons dot com

Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:58:11 +0200
From: Angelo Machils <bytor at snowdog dot cuci dot nl>
Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #430
Hiyo!

>I saw a CD in a shop today by a group called Psychomuzak.  It had a big red
>sticker on it that said "Features ex-members of King Crimson!" The shop
>wouldn't let me have a look at the booklet or hear it, so I have no idea
>what this is or who's involved. The disc is a 1997 release on Delerium
>Records I believe.
>Can someone fill me in please?

1997? Must be an re-issue because my copy is from '94.... Anyway, the
line-up consists of:
* Dean Carter
* Cliff Stapleton (only electric hurdy gurdy on one track.
* Steve Wilson (production, programming (on one track) & treatments
Recorded jan 29-31, feb 28-29 1994

Feel Greeted, Angelo			bytor at snowdog dot cuci dot nl

The Light You See At The End Of The Tunnel ...
	... Is The Headlight Of A Fast Approaching Train.

From: Terry Coatta <coatta at acm dot org>
Subject: RE: Vancouver G3 Show
Date: 	Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:11:25 -0800
> From: "dumela" <dumela at nicom dot com>
> Subject: FW: Fripp makes metalheads squirm
> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:45:54 -0400
>
> FWDed gig review from Vancouver:
>
> Fripp does his Frippertroncis thing - play a couple note, twiddle a few
> nobs, turn occasionally to press a peddle, play a few more notes, never
> look at the audience or change facial expressions, occasionally stand
> and walk over to the side of the stage and let the music play by itself.

I was also at the G3 concert in Vancouver. I arrived a bit late (one of the
troubles associated with having a 2 1/2 year old) and so ended up off at
the side of the stage. This turned out to be quite beneficial as far as
watching Mr. Fripp was concerned because it turned out that was the
direction he was facing most of the time.

I have to say that "never...change[ing] facial expressions" is not what I
observed. Although Mr. Fripp cannot be accused of Jim Carrey-like facial
extravaganzas, I did see many different expressions cross his face as he
played. This made the event quite wondrous for me. I'm not much for
concerts, in general, but when I do venture out, I *really* want to see the
artist. I play a bit myself, and I certainly find that my own experience of
the music I am playing is reflected in the way that I look/act. Being able
to see the performer "enlarges" the experience of the music for me.

I stayed through the entire show, so I was able to see Mr. Fripp jamming
with the other players at the end of the evening. It was interesting. He
did solo during two of the pieces. The first was a cover of the Kinks "You
Really Got Me". A Fripp solo for this particular piece of music was both
incongruous and delightful. The second piece was a standard-sounding blues
number. Again, it was fascinating to hear "standard" blues licks rendered
by Mr. Fripp into something familiar but somewhat "out there".

Interestingly, during the jam sessions neither Steve Vai nor Kenny Wayne
Sheppard seemed to pay any attention to Mr. Fripp at all. Joe Satriani came
over and talked to him a number of times though, and the conversations
looked quite amiable. It lead me to wonder if they have ever worked
together?

Terry Coatta
coatta at acm dot org

From: John Paar <Paar at mail dot dec dot com>
Subject: ONEENO Video
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:57:35 -0500
After recently enjoying a pub crawl in the Temple Bar of Dublin Ireland a
few weeks ago, I happened to come across an exhibit at the Multimedia Arts
Center of new Brian Eno music entitled "Music for White Cube." Apparently
this was an example of Eno's new interest in self generating music.

Aside from this, playing on a stack of huge 21" RGB monitors was a French
made commercial video entitled "ONE ENO" in which Eno's work and
collaborations including work with Robert Fripp are documented. There were
a couple of ENO-FRIPP jam sessions on the video probably from the Nerve Net
sessions in 1992. The graphics and visual content of the tape were
excellent.  I have no other details on the video and would like to know if
any ET's might no of a way of obtain a copy .

regards, JP John Paar Workstation Account Manager 408-748-4165 FAX 408
748-4022 NEW E MAIL Address :Paar at Mail dot DEC dot COM

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:50:34 +0000
From: Michael Madden <"michael dot madden at virgin dot net"@virgin.net>
Organization: 4 Hoopers Close Landrake
Subject: We`ll Let You Know...latest issue available now...
Dear ETer`s
                      The next Issue of the Crimson Newsletter We`ll Let
You Know is now available, featuring reviews and comment on all things
Crimson.

Fripps week long Soundscape performances from Salisbury Cathedral, The
Nightwatch playback and reviews from readers, Epitaph, G3 tour, Sid and his
diary of Crimson past, how to get hold of that elusive Eric Tam book,
Michael Brook, Gordon Haskell and no-man featured in the review section and
lots of news and discussion from readers.

#2.00 an Issue,

If you would like a copy of the newsletter, please email Darren or
myself.

Darren Woolsely the Editor, e-mail: darrenwlyk at compuserve dot com

Michael Madden, e-mail michael dot madden at virgin dot net

Next issue due in December it will feature the start of a 2 part look at
John Wetton, Mike Keneally will come under the Spotlight, other features of
the issue: Crimsons December London Gigs, the Editor will be there for all
four nights and Fripps Soundscapes from Cornwall will also be a main
feature of the newsletter.

Anyone who would like to contribute material to  the Newsletter would be
most welcome, it is the Newsletters aim to publish everything which is
submitted if possible.

Not everyone has e-mail, news and views expressed in ET are not common
knowledge to many of the none net surfing Crimson fans which are out there,
so if you do have any Crimson Talk of interest don't just post it to ET
send it on also to We`ll Let you Know, see e-mail addresses above.

Thanks for your time, look forward to hearing from many of you in the
near future.

Best Wishes
Michael Madden

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:15:03 -0500
From: James Bailey <jbailey at southam dot ca>
Organization: Southam Inc.
Subject: RE: In the Motor Court of the Crimson King
Ken:

   Yes, there really is a Crimson King variety of maple tree. I tried to
send a picture I'd taken of one planted in a local park here in Toronto,
but apparently it did not translate well enough for Dan to use. I've taken
some new ones, which I'll send in when they are developed. In the meantime
I will also try to dig up some dirt (pun intended) on the origins of this
particular name from a local nursery and send it along also. Look for it in
the "Sightings" section soon.

Jim Bailey

Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:02:51 +0100
From: delta <dgalii at hotmail dot com>
Subject: aphorism
Some time ago I've downloaded a file called "Aphorism".Due to hard disk
problems I've lost it.Any help?
Keep on Thraking!

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 02:43:03 -0500
From: Stewart Murrell <Stewart_Murrell at compuserve dot com>
Subject: Old SInfield/Roxy Connection
Here's one that had passed me by until now... I just dug out the first Roxy
Music album for a listen, and the cover says "Produced by Peter Sinfield
for E.G. Records P 1972". The same Peter SInfield, presumably?

From: jwb2 <jwb2 at ukc dot ac dot uk>
Subject: Advice on DGM releases
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:38:35 +0000 (GMT)
Hi there.

I was just listening through my "Sometimes God Hides" sampler cd yesterday
evening, and am interested in possibly buying a couple of the albums. I was
wondering if anybody already has any of these albums, and would like to let
me know what they are like - either by email or on ET:

Trey Gunn - A Thousand Years
            The Third Star

Robert Fripp and the LoG - Intergalactic Boogie Express
                           (also I'm interested in Show of
                            Hands and Live!)

Gitbox - (can't remember the name of this one!)

Many thanks,

James.

Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:56:43 +0000
From: johnpellerito <johnp at nshs dot edu>
Subject: NY shows at Longacre
> While I'm sure the NY shows were great (I would've loved to have seen a
> show that started with "B'Boom"/"THRAK"), I can't help but think about this
> release (DEJA VROOOM?) as a "been there, done that."

Jim, these shows were unbelievable.  I have seen great KC shows over the
last 25 years but these shows were as good or better than any of them.  I
am overjoyed at the prospect of hearing this music again and expect they
will blow away the B'Boom discs.

You will not be disappointed.

John

From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 13:28:42 PST
Subject: Bill Bruford - Sampling - Tatoos - Adrian - Tribute Tape
     G'day all Eters

     Bill Bruford
     Apparently Bill did a movie called "Bruford and the Beat" where he
     discusses his styles, background and equipment and performs the track
     Discipline. Does anybody have this/seen this. the web site I found it
     at is http://www.videoflicks.com/VF/02/002441.Htm.

     Does anybody have the midi files from q-arts. If so maybe we could
     trade for these or you could send me your review. I wonder if Bill
     gets any royalties from these. Did bill play these in or were they
     programmed in by someone else.

     Sampling
     My view is that sampling is probably worse than Bootlegging. At least
     with Boots it is known who the artist is even though this is an
     unauthorized release and the artist has no control/earnings. With
     Sampling of loops etc. then one artist is passing off someone else's
     work as his own which is outright fraud. The only good sample is one
     that has been used as the basis for a new sound. i.e. one that has
     been changed enough for it's source to be inaudible.

     Tattoos
     I had heard that one of the members of L7 had the symbol from the
     cover of discipline tattooed on her shoulder. Maybe someone else has
     heard this story. I have been tossing around the idea of getting the
     sun/moon symbol as a tattoo for years. Still can't decide whether I
     want a permanent reminder. I'm sure I was talking to an fellow eter
     from Queensland Australia who had this as a tattoo.

     Adrian
     I firmly believe Adrian to be a valued member of the band. His
     fabulous musicality and sense of humor would be sorely missed. And as
     for his lyrics, I think Dinosaur is not that far away from any of the
     other quirky lyrics from the earlier lyrics.

     Tribute Tape
     As there seems to be a few musicians out there in ET land, maybe some
     would be interested in putting together an ET members Tribute Tape/CD.
     This could possibly contain cover version of KC tunes or original
     music in the KC vein. Those interested may like to email me direct to
     discuss. I hope Bob & co. would not be adverse to this.

     Regards to All
     Mark Jordan
     Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au


Mike Stok