Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #431 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 431 Thursday, 23 October 1997 Today's Topics: USA - The true story ? re: Providence, USA Re: Providence, USA Epitaph: The 90 min version Red in Chicago Trib Gobbledygook of Saturday Fripp ought to check out NPR Re: Any more Islands Earthbound? ETers in Portland, OR ETcetera Tamm book on Eno: updated! Add two Floridians to Projeckt One!!!! Possible Productions phone # Re: How Fripp got on G3 What I meant was... Sampling, Bootlegging, Cultural Assimilation Response to Theoretical Bootlegging Flaws Advice? Tamm/Eno Book Bruford CD-Rom the final word Eric Tamm's Eno book Re: Eric Tamm, Brian Eno; the vertical color of sound Distorted Def Eds Mellotrons & NPR Eric Tamm's Eno Book Second printing of Tamm's Eno book out already Tamm Fripp book for sale Re: "Red" live 1974? The Natural Life Cycle Of Mailing Lists Probably an obvious answer... Bootlegging Paranoia King Crimson On The Yes Video. Ease up Ken RF & TLoCG on VH1 After The Flood In the Motor Court of the Crimson King King Crimson Tribute CD on E Tape Re: Bruford CD-rom (and other interesting ones) "Red" live in '74 wordplay ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: The ongoing USA discussion, plus a few other things Hi everyone. The first few posts in this issue of ET concern the origin of the tracks on the USA album. We begin with a message from David Singleton, (thanks for that, David) who sets the record straight. Then a few more posts which discuss when/where USA was recorded. These will be the last posts on the subject in ET for some time. I am wielding the editorial knife, rusty as it is. I'd also like to thank everyone who responded to the plea in the last issue for help establishing a new Web site for ET. We'll reply to everyone individually, of course, but it will take a little while. One other point: posters, please don't send your posts as mime encodings, or other base64 weirdness. Currently, we can only handle plain ASCII text, so if you are posting from a browser (like... Netscape specifically), please check the appropriate mailing options. Meanwhile, I'll simply recommend a great new CD to you: "Shleep" by Robert Wyatt. How's that for off-topic-self-indulgent-ism? Moderator's perks, you know. :-) Best wishes to you all Toby --------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:20:55 -0400 From: Discipline Global Mobile <73064 dot 1470 at compuserve dot com> Subject: USA - The true story ? I was recently handed a copy of ET, with a reference to the question "Where was USA recorded ? ". Apparently, I have answered this question, and my answer has been reported. I have no copy of what I was reported to say, but as there is still some confusion, I can hopefully put matters to rest. USA, with one exception, was recorded at ASBURY PARK, and NONE of this show appears on The Great Deceiver. The final 21st Century Schizoid Man on USA is however from PROVIDENCE, and is the opening piece of the second CD of the Great Deceiver. The majority of the pieces on USA have been overdubbed ( which is not true of the versions on The Great Deceiver ), although very few, if any of them, have been edited. The version of 21st Century Schizoid man that was played at ASBURY PARK appears on the SCHIZOID MAN single, and will appear on the new CD version of USA when it is completed. The liner notes to SCHIZOID MAN suggested that there would be an album USA II. This is not the case. There will simply be a new, longer version of USA, which will be released by Virgin next year. Of course Discipline is just about to release THE NIGHT WATCH....... David Singleton. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:44:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: re: Providence, USA Dave Lane challenged the team: >My ears tell me that, with the obvious >exception of Asbury Park, all of the tracks on USA are based on the >performances from Providence that is included in The Great Deceiver. ... >Don't go digging around for other people's opinions one way or the other, >just listen for yourself. I did just that, and I'm sorry to say that I concluded beyond doubt that Dave is in error. (Actually I'm not sorry at all--the more different Crimson performances there are to be heard, the better, as far as I'm concerned!) I focused in particular on the drums and vocals, believing that in composed passages this is where the most scope for deviation between performances of the same material would lie. I found that every one of the disputed tracks on _USA_ has obviously different drumming from its Providence counterpart. The vocal inflections are indeed remarkably similar between the two performances, but there are still tell-tale differences. Here are a few "signposts": LARKS' TONGUES: The drumming is clearly different. Compare the two loud cymbal strokes at the beginning of the _USA_ version with the *three* cymbal strokes at the same point in the Providence version. Also note that Bruford's re-entry during the bridge, 55 seconds in, begins with a roll on _USA_ but not in the Providence performance. LAMENT: The Providence performance begins "Guess I tried...," while on _USA_ Wetton clearly sings "*I* guess I tried..." He then laughs during the words "with my" in the Providence show, but not in the _USA_ performance. As for the instrumental tracks, note the bridge (starting at 1:21): Bruford plays more ratchet in the Providence version than in the _USA_ version, while Wetton muffs a note at the end of his fourth phrase in Providence (at 1:32), which he plays cleanly on _USA_. Wetton's volume setting also seems to be different; note the completely different distortion effects in this very exposed passage. (And I'm *not* talking about the kind of distortion that could be applied at the mixing stage; I'm talking about the response of the instrument/amp setup to the volume of Wetton's picking.) EXILES: Come on now, this isn't even close! EASY MONEY: Dave recognizes that the guitar and drum tracks, as well as the entire solo section, are not from Providence, but he insists: >1 - You might say that the vocals on USA's EASY MONEY are very different >from the ones on TGD's, and you'd be right. They are, but they're the same >performance, only on USA the vocals have been put through some sort of >electronic processing to make them sound fuzzy. If you pay close >attention to Wetton's vocal inflections, you'll find that they're from the >same performance. On _USA_ Wetton's voice cracks on the word "suspenders" and he holds the last syllable of the word "almighty" for several beats. The Providence performance doesn't have these characteristics, but it does have Wetton laughing after the first vocal line--undoubtedly in response to the incredibly silly guitar fill Fripp has just perpetrated. It seems safe to assume at this point that Bill Singleton's info on the source of the _USA_ performances is correct. Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- ...visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html "Reality: what a gyp."--Dogbert ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 04:24:10 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Re: Providence, USA In 428, Dave Lane says: >> This is not entirely true IMO. My ears tell me that, with the obvious >> exception of Asbury Park, all of the tracks on USA are based on the >> performances from Providence that is included in The Great Deceiver. >> Before you go dismissing me as a lunatic, try listening closely to the >> recordings yourself. In the most recent ET, Paul M. Davies tells us that >> David Singleton ("the horse's mouth") claimed that all of USA save for >> Schizoid is from Asbury Park. I would respectfully have to say that either >> Paul or David is mistaken, and that the only way my ears would allow me to >> believe that statement would be if I found that the Providence set on The >> Great Deceiver was actually a mislabeled Asbury Park show. On this >> subject, I would only characterize as "the horse's mouth" someone who had a >> hand in the compiling of USA. Dave then gives a number of tips on how to compare various versions, and concludes: >> It would be nice if Fripp would comment on this issue sometime; it comes up >> frequently. Actually, Fripp already has: in the booklet for "The Young Person's Guide to KC" Fripp writes "June 30: "Providence" and most of "USA" recorded at the Palace Theatre, Providence, R.I." It would seem someone in the chain has it bass-akward. ------------------------------ From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Epitaph: The 90 min version Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:38:31 -0700 As promised, here's a recipe for a 90 mins. Epitaph (not affiliated with 10 Minute Rice) Side One 21st Century Schizoid Man (disc 1) Drop In (disc 4) In The Court Of The Crimson King (disc 1) Epitaph (disc 1) Get Thy Bearings (disc 4) Side Two A Man A City (disc 2) Mantra (disc 3) Travel Weary Capricorn (disc 3) Improv (disc 3) Mars (disc 2) Comments welcome. Email me privately. Andy Gower ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:34:26 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Red in Chicago Trib The Chicago Tribune of 19 October 1997 includes a listing of "essential" rock recordings. The list includes KC's (a small surprise) "Red" (a big surprise). The recording is hailed as "progressive rock's finest hour." It's funny how much smarter rock critics seem when they say something you agree with--especially something as unexpected as a daily paper praising "Red". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 04:32:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Boobird at aol dot com Subject: Gobbledygook of Saturday Dear Folks, Some more odd lines of thought after watching too many Saturday cartoons and listening to one too many CDs, all without the help of illicit drugs. At the risk of getting severely poked with pointy sticks, here goes... 1) What with all the odd musings of Mr. Fripp's demeanor, a grand idea for post-KC Fripp came to light; that of pro wrestler or manager. Imagine our hero dressed in full dark regalia, entering and exiting to appropriate Soundscapes. In between, he would finish off his hated rivals with his patented move (insert appropriate KC title here, eg "The "Mincer." Or the "Sunset Fripp"), which consists of... A) Appropriately placed and timed spit B) A jab to the throat with the Tokai Les Paul (of course when the ref wasn't looking) C) A whack to the forehead with the stool (ditto) D) As the opponent collapses in a heap, our hero sits on the stool, feet on the fallen's shoulders, for the 1-2-3. Of course our hero would be a "bad guy" in this scenario. His main interview line would be "Well, the moves existed before I put them to practice." Which strangely segues to the next thought... 2) In the grand theory of things, KC music is out there to be played. This implies that KC music has always been there. The question then becomes, what was the first "KC music" ever done? Was it Gregorian chant? Was it some unrecorded primal grunting and groaning? I feel that "KC folk music" (very unexplored territory) was first hinted at by King Stontrio, oops, sorry, Kingston Trio with their "Coo Coo U." Which, incredibly enough, segues to 3A)Six steps from Kingston Trio to King Crimson (OH NO, IT'S TOBY RUNNING WITH SCISSORS!!!!) ? 3B)If "Doctor Diamond" is about a notorious drug distributor, then is "MTA" about a hapless drug user? After all, "Charlie couldn't get off of that train..." 4) Notice lack of segue, because this is totally unrelated to the above. But someone mentioned in a previous post that the "Inner Garden" series from THRAK must be a tribute to Greg Lake's early KC ballads. I must say I concur with this line of thought; after all, the Moonchild is "gathering the flowers in 'er garden." Ouch!!! Hey, watch where you're jabbin' those thangs... Boo ------------------------------ Organization: Visidyne Inc. Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:50:27 -0400 From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: Fripp ought to check out NPR Douglas Robillard wrote >As a regular National Public Radio listener myself, I second Sanjay >Krishnaswamy's suggestion in ET #429 that Fripp & Co. might consent to >an NPR interview or profile. NPR is the only place on the dial I hear >KC music, although only in short snippets. I agree that they might find >a sympathetic audient at NPR. And imagine KC performing "Dig Me" on the >CarTalk program! Tom and Ray, the "Tappet Brothers," could supply >appropriate automotive percussion, methinks. I was thinking more, "Neal and Jack and Me." ("I am a 1957 Starlight Coupe!") Or I suppose, VROOOM. ("Our chief mechanic in charge of brake services is A Drum Belew.") SK ____________________________________________________________________________ Sanjay Krishnaswamy sanjay at visidyne dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:51:24 +0200 From: Paul M Davies Organization: SunSoft ICNC Subject: Re: Any more Islands Earthbound? At the Nightwatch playback, I also heard David Singleton say that the following were planned: * CD-release of the 1971-1972 line-up live (Fripp/Burrel/Wallace/Collins, who produced Islands and Earthbound) * A CD of the 1972-1973 quintet line-up live (Cross/Fripp/Wetton/Bruford/Muir) * CD-release of the 1980s line-up live * A video release of the 1973-74 quartet line-up (Cross/Fripp/Wetton/Bruford) taken from a French TV broadcast.(I think that's what he said, but I may be confusing it in my memory with something else). So start saving now! ------------------------------ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: ETers in Portland, OR Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:11:00 -0400 Please respond privately if you are an ETer in Portland, OR. A new job is bringing me there in December, and I'd appreciate any insight you might have on neighborhoods, etc. Thanks. Mike Heilbronner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:30:48 -0400 (EDT) From: MarkJX at aol dot com Subject: ETcetera Just lots of notes: From: "\"UNPLUGGED\" in L.A." Subject: Exposure LP I have what I believe is an original pressing of the Exposure LP. I'm interested in selling it . Can you suggest it's value, and furthermore an audience to solicit the sale. I've seen several of these in Denver for $3.99. You've got the right audience though. From: Close2Edge at aol dot com Subject: League Live? Sound quality is not the greatest, but if you're a GC fan, this is a good one. From: Bungale at aol dot com Subject: zappa Lather and/or Jazz from Hell (sorry Toby) From: "Marc I Roemer" Subject: compositions The "completely new direction" from Adrian's post holds promise; I just hope he's referring to his lyrics as well as the music. What in the world...has happened to wordplay? People bitch...People whine....People bore...All the time... Finally, My G3 impressions (Denver 10/7): Wasn't sure I could go until last minute. Lots of tickets still available (did this happen on other dates?) Was told Doors at 6. Doubted it so showed up at 5. Doors at 6. Fripp was, well... Fripp. Personally, I found the soundscapes uninteresting. I much preferred my only other live soundscapes experience (RFH in London). The crowd was more polite in the UK (even though it was Free and in the Lobby!). I felt that the music lacked dynamic (HERETIC! BURN HIM! BETTER YET! FLAME HIM!....save it for personal email). I was also interested in hearing Mike Keneally play and was not disappointed, however, again, I found his playing well beneath him this go around and thought his contribution was little more than noodling with a volume pedal. Of course, I only dream that I could be 1/2 the player that either of these gentlemen are, but simply put, I expected better. This did not prevent me from purchasing Pie Jesu and an extra DGM sampler. KWS was straight on Blues. Good for a teenager, but he's going to need to develop his own style a bit more for a sustained career. Steve Vai was a very pleasant (and LOUD) surprise, possibly the best part of the night. Simply put, he put EXPRESSION (eyebrows, as Frank Zappa says) into everything he played, even if it was simple 4/4 blues, or Van Halen-esque noodling. Mike K was a pleasure to watch in this set. Joe Satriani was flawless as always, but hadn't progressed in his set beyond G3-96. Stu Hamm was the highlight with his Abbey Road Inspired bass solo. At least he progressed since last year (though to cut Satch some slack, he did have to produce last year's G3 CD and Video AND organize this year's G3, including an unexpected break to allow KWS to finish his CD). The jam was fun, but I'M SORRY, I could NOT hear RF's solos at all over the din. I guess you need to bring a gun to a gunfight, regardless whether or not you could slice enneagrams into the other fellow with your knife. Straight on rock was the order of the day for the Jam. On a further note, while I was listening to RF, I looked back at the soundboard and recognized the soundman as someone that I had met at the March Guitar Circling in Seattle. I wanted to say HI and BS a little, but I knew he was working and didn't want to disturb. After the set was over, I called to him, but, like RF is want to do, he ran off. Now I don't even know if he heard me (but how could he not) but it did piss me off a little. After all, he was someone that I had spoken with before. I didn't want an autograph or to tell him how great his soundboard work was, nor that it has changed my life. Aim or no Aim, I'd rather he'd acknowledged me by saying that he needed to rush off or even telling me to get lost. I sincerely hope I never behave like that. Thrak On! Mark J. ------------------------------ Subject: Tamm book on Eno: updated! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 18:40:57 GMT From: brevoort at worldaccess dot nl (brevoort) Regarding the remarks about the Eric Tamm book on Brian Eno, there is an updated version! Published in 1995 by Da Capo Press (New York), and, as it says, reprinted by arrangement with Faber and Faber, Inc. The ISBN number is 0-306-80649-5. As Faber & Faber have a settlement in the USA themselves, does this mean they were not interested to do it? Furthermore, if Tamm has updated his earlier (Eno) book, can it possibly mean he is now updating his later (Fripp) book. And if so, why isn't he doing it faster. About the server Toby, have you considered approaching Fripp/DGM? Is this a possibility at all? Anyway, thanks for all the splendid work so far; you moderate with great moderation (the great M, or just the Magnificent T?) [ No, ET wishes to remain quite separate from Robert Fripp and DGM. -- Toby ] Best wishes to all. Rob van Brevoort ------------------------------ From: Erik Varga Subject: Add two Floridians to Projeckt One!!!! Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:13:53 -0400 Hello ETer's: My wife and I are from Orlando, Florida and we have just confirmed our travel arrangements & Jazz Cafe tickets to the Projeckt One shows. YEAH!!!! Is anyone traveling from farther away than us to go see Projeckt One? The excitement and anticipation of Projeckt One makes me want to do backflips! We can't wait... Erik V ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:37:11 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Possible Productions phone # FYI: Those who call the Possible Productions # recently posted in ET will be told that the area code has changed. If you change the area code you will dial the number of a woman who cannot put two thoughts together (call during the cheap rate time). If you call directory assistance in Long Beach you will be given a new #. If you dial that # you will be told it is not in service. Trust me: I've been through the process twice. If you E-Mail the company you will wait awhile, but eventually you will get through. At least these are my experiences--if yours are different, good for you. By the way, USA Discipline has no phone listed and does not answer E-mail. I'm not trying to start a war with anyone (and I certainly don't want my shoes spat upon), I'm just trying to inform readers: Sometimes the Record Company Hides. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:05:12 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Re: How Fripp got on G3 In 428 Andrew Fignar Jr. comments: >> I would like to point out too is RF approached G3 to join, he wasn't >> asked. Tells you something of his opinion of these gentleman. Not what I heard. If I remember correctly, Fripp was asked about his involvement in G3 in a recent Guitar Magazine interview. Fripp said that he was approached by the G3 organizers, and he asked them if they were ready to accept what he was going to do and they said yes. The interviewer asked if he thought any of the G3er's were familiar with the soundscapes, and Fripp said he had heard that Satriani had said, "Well how is this going to affect the jam at the end?" indicating he knew what the soundscapes were like. Tells you something about these gentlemen's opinion of Fripp. Ken Lacouture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 97 16:58:08 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: What I meant was... In response to Michael W. Flaherty's post in #430: Let me make one more attempt to clarify what in the world I was talking about, anyway. From what I know about Robert Fripp, I get the impression that he has a marked interest in things that some people (not everybody, but some people) might consider "mystical" or even "occult"... I guess that was what I was mainly thinking of when I wrote my original post about "eccentricity," although I myself don't separate those things from other views and actions of his that are idiosyncratic but not in the "mystical" category. I detected a certain adversarial tone to your post, which puzzles me somewhat since I see no really substantial disagreement between our views -- mainly just the semantic one of how to define the term "eccentric." I speculate that you may have felt that I was finding fault with you for "misunderstanding" my earlier post. If so, I'm sorry. Perhaps my definition of "eccentric" is somewhat eccentric. -- CJ ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:56:51 -0400 Subject: Sampling, Bootlegging, Cultural Assimilation Ken Lacoutre said.... >Money is not the issue here. I am taking issue with a very specific aspect > of you post - the statement that you "do not care" what the artists think > about a substantial remanipulation of their work. I am not meaning to argue with Ken's main piont here: that we should at least consider the feelings of the artist that created the work, whether we choose ultimately to ignore them or not. This brings up an interesting point that ties this issue with bootlegging. Consider sampling (particularly as extensively used in Rap). At its worst, its pretty much a rip off (MC Hammer?) At its best, however, it is an activity of cultural assimilation (Public Enemy?). My comment here is that as either music or commercials or whatever else are assimilated, via sampling or not, I don't think the artist should ultimately have the final say or control over how a work is assimilated by culture as a whole. (This, of course, is totally besides the point of an artists right to the income generated by his work.) The kind of musical collage that originally inspired Ken's reaction is to some extent a personaliztion of commercial product, and from that standpoint perhaps the artist's orignal intent IS almost irrelevant. Consider some smarmy work of popular junk. Years later, the same piece of popular junk-music may seem almost like some form of agit-prop from a bygone era: it's right and good to sample or quote some works, putting a modern "spin" that reveals its true empty nature. This will probably piss of the "artist" greatly, but tough. Maybe bootlegging then is in part a sort of unconcious reaction to the forces in modern society that would tell us that the musical experience is not ours, we just are passive observers. At its best it may be an attempt to re-assert control over the process of assimilation. Commercial society has tried to turn us into drones that will accept the latest Disney movie push as if it were a spontaneous movement of popular culture. Although as the son and brother to pro musicians I too am wary of the economic consequences of bootlegging, at the same time I would not attempt to stop or correct those who are developing firewall-like systems of controlled assimilation. -Emory ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 17:03:28 -0400 Subject: Response to Theoretical Bootlegging Daniel Farris said... >Bootlegging is clearly a big problem in >rock, therefore you get frisked. Want to stop the >frisking? Eliminate bootlegging. I would just like to point out the almost obvious speciousness of this thought: his argument boils down to the ends justifying the means. Waitaminute, it's not even that good: he is saying that because SOME people may bootleg, they have the right to frisk everyone. Surely Daniel can do better than this! -Emory ------------------------------ From: Steve Parker Subject: Flaws Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:46:46 -0500 (CDT) In the last exciting (really!) issue of ET, Ken Lacouture had this to say about my "Remasters" post: > I also wish to add some perspective to Steve Parker's comments about "flaws" > in the various reissues of the early KC catalog. > > It is always hazardous to compare the finer qualities of vinyl and CD > releases. Agreed. However, my comparisons were mostly of the first issue CD's vs. the Definitive Edition remasters, with one or two exceptions. > Hazarding a potential insult to Steve's sound system, the audio detective in > me can't help but suspect that there may be something up with his CD player. > > Steve, have you tried borrowing a different player and swapping cables to > confirm that it's the media and not the messenger? (Hope there's no > condescension taken here - for all I know you may be an audiophile.) No offense taken, Ken. I anticipated someone asking this question. I have sampled these discs on not one, not two, but four different high-end audio systems. All of the problems I mentioned were apparent in each demo. Fellow list member Biffy replied privately that the left channel distortion problem had been cited in the 'CD Watchdog' column of 'Ice' prior to the release of the DE's. I am tempted to say "Wish I'd known then...", but I'm sure I'd still have bought the DE's. There are improvements...just not as many as there should have been to earn the "Definitive" moniker. > In the case of the 70's titles that have been remixed... Which none of them have, except for two songs on the Frame by Frame box... > In cases such as this, the differences can't really be considered "flaws", > just differences which one can subjectively find better or worse than the > original, but which are an unavoidable consequence of the undertaking. Can't agree with you here. When you have bass distortion where there was none before, that's a flaw. When you have bad start up notes, or pitch wobbles, or whatever you want to call them, where they didn't exist before, those are flaws. > I'm one of those who gets attached to the originals, and usually finds any > alterations "wrong". I like to think that once something's done, it's done. Ditto. Hence, my criticism of someone's decision to roll off the high end to (apparently) mask the tape hiss on some cuts from the DE ITWOP. I didn't have to put up with that before. Why now, and have it called Definitive? Hardly, I say. My dissatisfaction with the Def. Ed's does not lie in the differences between digital vs. analog technology. What happened in these remasterings is, at least to some degree, the result of carelessness and, perhaps, undetected faults in the equipment used. How else do you explain the bass distortion? By calling these flawed editions "Definitive", Mr. Fripp essentially promised us audio haute cuisine, but instead served us turkeys to be roasted. Steve p.s. I concur with the list member who expressed the hope that Fripp's settlement with EG will net him the original 2 track masters for titles that were previously remastered from copies. That alone would be reason enough for remastering those titles, for my money. ------------------------------ From: "Dave Goldsmith" Subject: Advice? Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:47:52 +0100 Hi all, sorry about the Tele-Tubbies thing I hope this is a bit more interesting. Can anyone help with advice on a THRAK CDR that has been offered for sale, is it true that it is a private pressing by RF and signed by same along with a different sleeve, Is it true only 100 were made??? ABSENT LOVERS (Canadian boot) 1984 Montreal is it worth buying I am told it has a good sound quality, but is it a good gig? ROBERT FRIPP 1999 soundscapes in Argentina, any ideas? Can someone recommend somewhere to buy Epitaph and Nightwatch in the UK, I hate going to the big chains who have to order everything... Thanks in advance DG (any tickets available yet for Project in Dec.?) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Oct 97 19:52:53 -0400 From: Greg Bastug Subject: Tamm/Eno Book I'm 97.456% certain that I saw a whole shelf full of the Eno/Tamm book at Tower Records in Northern NJ a few months ago. If so, it seems it has been reissued... Greg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 20:28:52 -0400 From: Ken Mistove Subject: Bruford CD-Rom the final word For those interested: >From http://quparts.com/bruford.htm - mailto:sounds at quparts dot com Bill Bruford Packet of 3 Unique tri-format CD audio / CD-ROM/ MIDI drum loops and samples. Drawing from his vast work with Yes, King Crimson, to Earthworks, Bill Bruford offers samples and looping ranging from in-your-face Industrial Funk to the silken transparency of Starbells, plus an exhaustive catalog of rhythms, fills and flourishes. Full kit to tuned percussion, acoustic items were meticulously recorded using a wide variety of sticks, beaters, spaces and tempi. Pricing & Available Formats Bill Bruford 3-Pack CD-AUDIO $99.00 Bill Bruford 3-Pack Akai CD-AUDIO only $249.00 Bill Bruford 3-Pack MIDI FILES (PC or MAC) $39.95 Bill Bruford 3-Pack 3 Products in 1 $333.33 I've used some of Q Up Arts products. I've found them to be very useful and well done. Your mileage my vary. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 18:53:59 -0700 (PDT) From: J Young Subject: Eric Tamm's Eno book Alex Brugger and Toby were getting ready to fight the man: >sorry to tell you this, Stewart, but I've been trying to order this book >in British bookshops since, yes, 1992, and ever since then its status was >"reprint under consideration". well, it seems that some people do need >quite a bit of time to make up their minds.... >what about the idea of asking Faber and Faber directly and getting LOADS >of fellow ETers to sign the letter, to show them there actually _is_ a >demand for a reprint? hey, I'm serious about this.... >[ I have the book already, and it's fascinating. Start the petition, I'll > sign -- Toby ] No need to petition, the eno book is in print. It seems as if they reprinted it in 1995. Amazon's got it. Amazon has kind of high shipping rates, that can be avoided if you order from a local bookseller. Unless I missed a trade war over biographies of english musicians, you should be able to. here's the info from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0306806495/9508-0916514-372557 Brian Eno : His Music and the Vertical Color of Sound by Eric Tamm List: $14.95 Our Price: $14.95 Availability: On Order; usually ships within 1-2 weeks. Updated Paperback Published by Da Capo Pr Publication date: September 1, 1995 Dimensions (in inches): 8.95 x 5.90 x .53 ISBN: 0306806495 Table of Contents Acknowledgments 1. Eno's Work in Perspective 2. Background and Influences 3. On Other Music: Eno as Critic 4. The Ear of the Non-Musician 5. Listeners and Aims 6. The Compositional Process 7. The Musician as Philosopher 8. Taking Rock to the Limit 9. Eno's Progressive Rock: The Music 10. The Ambient Sound 11. Collaborations 12. Essence, History, and Beauty Epilog - 1989-1995 Eno on the Internet Notes Glossary Bibliography Eno Discography Other Music Cited sorry about the formatting on some of that. Fripp isn't currently available, though. Hopefully it will be updated as well. shamus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:31:42 -0400 From: simon beauchemin Subject: Re: Eric Tamm, Brian Eno; the vertical color of sound Quote: sorry to tell you this, Stewart, but I've been trying to order this book in British bookshops since, yes, 1992, and ever since then its status was "reprint under consideration". I ordered this book at corner library last year for 14.95$ US. Faber&Faber had a republication arrangement with Da capo press, a subsidiary of: Plenum Publishing corporation 233 Spring Street, New York, NY, 10013 The book is interesting, covering all era and aspects of Eno's musician and non-musician career. glad to help :) simon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:34:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Distorted Def Eds Ken Lacouture wrote: >I also wish to add some perspective to Steve Parker's comments about >"flaws" in the various reissues of the early KC catalog. > >Hazarding a potential insult to Steve's sound system, the audio >detective in me can't help but suspect that there may be something up >with his CD player. He identifies problems with the left channel >repeatedly; in this case the play-back unit joins Fripp and Arnold on >the list of common denominators. I can hear the distortion Steve wrote about, and although my stereo system is far from high end, it seems unlikely that it would have the same defect in one channel as Steve's--one which manifests itself on only three of the ten Definitive Edition KC CDs! (Can I be an "audio detective" too? How about a Junior G-Man?) More tellingly, I knew to expect this distortion before the discs even hit the store shelves. The "CD Watchdog" column of the December 1989 issue of ICE included a "sneak preview" of the Def Eds from an unidentified source who describes exactly the same problem on _Court_, _Lizard_ and _Islands_ that Steve noticed: "But three of the CDs have a common defect: a harmonic distortion in the left channel that seems to coincide with a certain bass frequency. It's only really evident when the bass plays solo--but there are several cases where that occurs." It is to Steve's great credit that he did some research before posting his comments about the sound quality of the Def Ed CDs precisely so he *could* be sure that what he was hearing was not just an artifact of his own perception or his own sound system. (I know this because I was one of the people he contacted, and I informed him of the ICE article.) Your pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html "...these insufferable Fripps, men who ought never to be trusted..."--P.G. Wodehouse ------------------------------ From: "Chris Berg" Subject: Mellotrons & NPR Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:42:28 -0500 My apologies for posting the link to the Real Audio broadcast of All Things Considered from 10/14 before checking to be sure that it would actually be there. It appears that they were unable to get permission from the artists whose music was featured in the story (KC, Moody Blues, and Julian Cope among them), so they were unable to post a replay on the web. Tapes or transcripts may be available if you check NPR's website at www.npr.org. Chris ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (Grant Colburn) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:18:40 -0500 Subject: Eric Tamm's Eno Book Forgive me if this has been mentioned already but Eric Tamm's Eno book HAS been reprinted! I got it last year at Barnes and Noble. It contains a chapter on Nerve Net, Shutov Assembly and Neroli, all Eno releases from the last few years. And not to tease anyone dying to find this book but I think there is still an extra copy sitting there. You must be able to order it from them. Also worth checking out is Eno's diary called A Year With Swollen Appendices. Fripp is mentioned in a couple of places. On the subject of Eno may I mention if there are those out there who just can't convince some metal-head friend of theirs of the blinding speed and chops Fripp has when he chooses to show it to check out Fripp's solo on Distributed Being from Nerve Net. It has to rank as of of Fripp's fastest and most mind blowing solos! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:21:36 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Second printing of Tamm's Eno book out already > From: Alex Brugger > Subject: Eric Tamm - Brian Eno > > sorry to tell you this, Stewart, but I've been trying to order this > book in > British bookshops since, yes, 1992, and ever since then its status was > > "reprint under consideration". well, it seems that some people do need > > quite a bit of time to make up their minds.... Don't know about Faber and Faber, but Da Capo in New York (233 Spring Street, New York, NY 10013) published an updated version of Tamm's Eno book - including a new epilogue, a section on Eno on the internet, and updates to the bibliography and discography - in 1995. I feel reasonably sure they'd be happy to deal with international mailorder. If not, you can order it on the net via Amazon.com - info on this specific book is posted at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0306806495/7490-4208809-747749and they say they can generally deliver within 2-4 weeks. (Hi Alex!) Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:26:47 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Tamm Fripp book for sale Robert Fripp - From King Crimson to Guitar Craft, by Eric Tamm, for sale to good home. Yes, you read right. I'd be happy to part with this book to anyone who wants it. I'm asking only the cover price of $12.95 U.S., as I feel that the price of postage is offset by the natural wear on the book. Be aware, however, that I'm a particularly fastidious reader and thus you'll find not a crease in the book's spine. First bid of $12.95 U.S. takes the book. Reponse by private e-mail, not to ET. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:00:55 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Re: "Red" live 1974? In issue #430 Steve Smith wrote, in regard to a KC boot offered for sale: >Sorry, Stephen, I really don't mean to screw up your sales pitch, but I >truly have it in for this particular release, because I spent a LOT of >money on it before I realized that I'd been screwed. Oh, make no mistake, >the material here is fine. But it does NOT feature a live version of "Red" >from the 1974 lineup, which was my sole reason for buying this disc. The >track labeled "Red" is actually the final section from "Fracture." Did the 1974 line-up in fact ever perform "Red" live? I seem to recall a Fripp interview from ca. 1981 (perhaps in _Trouser Press_?) that one of his regrets at the time he dissolved the 73-74 line-up was that they never got to do "Red" live (this, to me anyway, explained why the 1981 line-up took up the tune!). Does anyone know of *any* bootlegs from '74 with a live "Red"? Just curious... Kevin Holm-Hudson It is a curse [having hip parents]. It means you have to veer off and find something that's really horrible and despicable that your parents are not gonna like. It may end up that you're determined to like the Spice Girls precisely because your parents don't like them. -- David Byrne It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. -- The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: The Natural Life Cycle Of Mailing Lists Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:03:24 -0400 (seen posted anonymously on several other lists) The Natural Life Cycle Of Mailing Lists Every list seems to go through the same cycle: 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush a lot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies). 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up). 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone -newbie and expert alike-feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions). 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed). 6. Finally: 1. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list). OR 2. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after). ------------------------------ From: "Vinny C" Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:38:41 +0000 Subject: Probably an obvious answer... Anyone know why there are no Crimson album available on services like Columbia House or BMG Music Service? Seems like if they were available through these distributers more people might be able to afford the music. Hey Ho, Vinny C. -Something that I would find very interesting: Robert Fripp as a participant on Politically Incorrect with Bill Mahr (sp?) Lest the mirror stop turning - King Crimson, Cirkus ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:09:00 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: Bootlegging Paranoia Daniel Farris said: >Bootlegging is clearly not a problem in classical music, therefore >there is >no need to frisk the audience. Bootlegging is clearly a big problem in >rock, therefore you get frisked. Want to stop the frisking? Eliminate >bootlegging. If relative financial effects are supposedly the motivation, this causal relationship breaks down quickly. The classical music market (performance and ancillaries) is and has been in a deep recession for quite a few years, and for at least a generation has fared far more poorly along any significant productivity measure than pop music. Therefore, bootlegging the relatively smaller number of classical artists in that field to an even smaller market would suggest you'd end up with greater relative negative market effects for any given classical artist or label. So, if money really was the reason, wouldn't search-and-seizure at the opera house door actually be *more* likely than at the arena? I think it's much more likely that socioeconomic differences between classical and pop music consumers make it comparative more ruinous for orchestra and chamber ensembles to feel up their audiences. What cardiologist or bank executive is likely to volunteer for that pleasure? Or to subsequently renew their concert seat? And if that's true, it's quite an indictment of what pop concert producers and performers think of their audience -- cattle waiting to be prodded, with only the occasional complaint, and almost never a refusal. Not exactly the kind of "respect" I keep hearing from Robert Fripp. Want to stop bootlegging? Stop penalizing your audience. Start penalizing your bootleggers ... [1] Release soundboard mixes of *every* concert you do. (Several local bands here have done this for over a decade.) Do it inexpensively (with generic packaging, on a direct marketing basis -- to reduce inventory requirements and provide a loss leader for your label) and quickly (within weeks of each event). Do this, and there's no economic incentive for the bootlegger to risk legal action. Do it right (subscriptions? tie-ins to other products? send in your concert stub and get X off the cost?) and you might even make money, instead of spending it one way or another on hired goons under your marquee, and bad karma among your fans. [2] Use electronic countermeasures in the hall. I vaguely recall having read about a number of spook-quality devices available to reduce the likelihood of an illicit recording, which can be countermanded within your own house system with matching hardware. If they exist, the cost might well be in the relative range of an internationally touring company. Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ From: "Jonathan Casey" Subject: King Crimson On The Yes Video. Date: Wed, 22 Oct 97 16:58:55 PDT Greetings ETers. This is my first posting, so I decided I would aim low, and just mention a piece of information you may not have come across. There is a video on sale called "Yesyears", a rockumentary if you will, concerning those unusually-dressed individuals, "Yes". At one point, they are discussing Bill Bruford's departure from the band, and a clip of King Crimson playing Easy Money is shown. This was apparently a promotional film that was shot at the time. A classic moment then occurs (beware, it is an obvious jibe at KC, but I have to admit, it's a good one). Bruford basically says, "I left Yes to join King Crimson for good musical reasons." Then another clip is shown, obviously taken from an improv, where Fripp is playing so fast that the notes are practically indiscernable, and behind him, Bruford is bashing something like hub-caps. The clip then fades to black. I know it isn't fair they picked that short clip, but it is funny to see. I think Yes shoot themselves in the foot later on though, by showing some 80's live footage of Jon Anderson wearing what can best be described as a girl's tracksuit, specifically a girl who has recently been attacked with a scythe. You may all know about KC's appearance on this video but if you haven't seen it, they are there to be seen. I wonder how much footage was on the original promotional film, does anyone know that sort of thing, or does anyone have it ? Cheers for now, Jonathan. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:33:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Goodcraker at aol dot com Subject: Ease up Ken Hello fellow ETers, Just thought Id drop a line. Small complaint and then I will shut up. Ken Lacouture, easy guy. Enough of the rants. It aint much fun when it takes a half hour to download the newsletter beacause youve decided to go on a 10,000 word tirade. It seems there are two camps of ETers. Those that have been fans, true fans that are always open to another fans opinions and ideas, and those that are so hard core and serious about all things KC and Fripp that ya better not cross them, or they will let you know they are not pleased. Cmon. Lets all lighten up a bit. I am not a musician. I dont understand the mechanics of the guitar, the stick or the mellotron. But I, like many of you, have been deeply moved and always entertained by RF and KCs music. I was an ELP fan many years ago. That came and went as I matured. But KC always stayed with me. And I have always felt KC and RF fans are the most intelligent and insightful fans on earth.....and thats my rant. One mo thang......Anyone ever hear of a KC release called Celebration of the Lizard? Its a live release from 1972 featuring RF,Mel Collins,Boz Burrell and Ian Wallace. Bad quality ( listed as import from Italy) but fascinating to hear live versions of Cirkus and Formentera Lady. Anyone ever hear of it? Let me know kids! know this will sound stupid and probably earn me the wrath of the hardcores (cant we all just get along?) but does anyone know of KC tattoos? I have the cover of LTIA ( moon in sun) on my left calf. I brought in the album some years ago to a tattoo shop and they were able to transfer a copy to trace on my leg. 3 painful hours later, there it was. Im the only one I know who has something like this, wondering if anyone has ever done something similar? Well I will shut up now. ..........PPS.. I think I talked the wife into getting one on her upper thigh. Maybe ITCOTCK on the right leg?.....Thrakk on kids!...T Murphy from Chi-Town ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 14:18:43 -0400 From: bullj1 at Westat dot com (BULLJ1) Subject: RF & TLoCG on VH1 To Joe who asked if I was the blonde appearing with TLoCG on the Easter 1985 New Visions program: No. That amazing guitarist-singer-character is Debra Kahan/Debra Gavalas. I was on a Level III Guitar Craft course with the people on that show, but was not on the show. As I recall, Robert didn't pick every video they showed. Also, while Ken Mistove and Jeff Weinberger were kind enough to put a couple of my songs up on Elephant Tape (http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/), I, owner of a mere 386S, have no website. Joan Bull bullj1 at westat dot com ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: After The Flood Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:26:35 -0400 Here's a quote from the November issue of ICE ("The CD News Authority"): "LA-based indie World Domination has a November 18 date set for After the Flood, a various-artists collection featuring Robert Fripp and Warren Defever from His Name Is Alive. The disc will initially appear as a deluxe two-CD set with special packaging, but will revert to a single disc once the limited editions are sold out." The Flood continues.... --TW (Dr. P) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:04:53 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: In the Motor Court of the Crimson King Couldn't resist sharing this one: during my recent foliage trip to Vermont a sign for a roadside motel made me do a double-take. I actually turned around and drove back just to confirm I had seen what I thought I saw. Yup, there it was: "Crimson King Motel" The logo above the name was a red maple leaf, so apparently they were thinking more of atumnal splendor than the Prince of Darkness. Still considering the recent thread about the etymology of the KC name, it gives one pause for thought: are the owners of this establishment King Crimson fans who are unaware of the darker side of the phrase? Is the KC name actually a more common phrase that goes back further than the ledgend of Sinfield's alleged creation of it (alleged by other, not necc. Sinfield himself)? If Sinfield created it, has it now spread subtly through western culture enough to be divorced from its original evil connotations? Is it just an odd coincidence? For those of a research driven bent, The Crimson King Motel is on Rt. 100 in Vermont, somewhere north of Stowe and south of Johnson. Look for it on the left as you drive North. Ken ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" Subject: King Crimson Tribute CD on E Tape Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:09:18 PDT Purple Pyramid Records sent a copy of their new "Schizoid Dimensions, A Tribute to King Crimson" CD to Elephant Tape, and gave permission for some clips to be posted. The clips should be up very soon. E Tape can be found at: http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/ So far, we have been able to post tracks from all the ETers and Guitar Craft students who have sent in their music. If you would like to appear on E Tape, write for submission information. --Jeffrey Weinberger jweinberger at hotmail dot com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:32:43 -0400 From: Lobotomy Software Organization: Lobotomy Software Subject: Re: Bruford CD-rom (and other interesting ones) Haven't checked the addresses recently, but here goes some interesting "sample" CD-ROMs: Bill Bruford --- Packet of 3 http://www.quparts.com/bruford.htm Mike Pinder's Mellotron --- All the Mellotron sounds put together by this Moody Bluer http://www.cybersound.com/catalogue/mello.html David Torn - Tonal Textures (While waiting for Chuckles' to appear) - Pandora's Tool Box http://www.quparts.com/tonal.htm (and pandora.htm) Keith Emerson --- Lucky Man (lot's of Moog and Hammond) http://www.cybersound.com/catalogue/emmerson.htm (double m is what I have) Just think of the "band" you can put together on your computer! Now if only Tony L. will put one out. BTW, I don't have any of these, but if anyone does, please send me a private email, as I have some questions before I go out and spend $150-$250 each on these. Another BTW, I don't have any affiliation with any of the above companies. bocephus at sprintmail dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:52:30 -0700 From: Josh Emery Organization: Emery Distributors, Inc. Subject: "Red" live in '74 > But it does NOT feature a live version of "Red" > from the 1974 lineup, which was my sole reason for buying this disc. The > track labeled "Red" is actually the final section from "Fracture." > Don't buy anything that claims to have "Red" on it (other than Red of course) from the 70s. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't exist. When KC played "Red" on the Discipline tour Fripp said one of the main reasons for this was that "Red" had never been performed live by the old band so it was sort of like a new song for them. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 97 13:23:31 -0500 From: "Marc I Roemer" Subject: wordplay Dan wrote: >>> If you are implying that Adrian's lyrics lack wordplay I'd have to strongly dissagree with you. In fact Adrian probably incorporates more wordplay in his lyrics than any other KC lyricist has. All the same, I think the biggest challenge for the new KC sound will be the lyrics. If the sound is to change, then surely the lyrics will have to be different in some way too. I trust Adrian will come through on that >>> score. I was implying that his lyrics since joining the 90s Crimson lack the wordplay of what he did in the early 80s. It seems like he's lost the goofiness and whimsy he used to have in lyricizing, both in his solo work and in Crimson. I think since around the time of "Oh Daddy," he's had it in his head to become a big star, and to that end, he's been writing lyrics he thinks are more mainstream. But the wacky stuff of his earlier days, like Adidas in Heat and Thela Hun Jinjeet is much more entertaining to me. I don't mean to poop the party here, but this trend makes me skeptical that he'll really go nuts with lyrics any time soon. With all due respect to Adrian the guitarist, I'm still hoping for Peter Hammill to take over the vocalist job some day. Apparently Fripp has some reservations about Adrian too; he asked David Sylvian to join the 90s Crimson before asking Adrian. Marc ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #431 ********************************