Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #428 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 428 Thursday, 16 October 1997 Today's Topics: Re:G3 Video Re: G3 Video sans Fripp? Providence, USA Re: G3 Video sans Fripp? Tinkering with art Fripp&sensehumor/RF&space Mellotron Rock A discovered Fripp announcement on CD Announcing a web page of the Night Watch playback event G3 Show Colorado Re: Elephant Talk Digest #426 Bowie and Reeves Gabrels for your earsake Fripp On G3 Video Les Cowboys allemands + varia Re: Robert Fripp & Van der Graff Generator my little findings Re: theoretical bootlegging Couple o' thoughts Mr.D; Sleepless 12"; Emmanuelle; Eccentric; Adrian Make your own USA from TGD bass solos USA Curtis Franks post Robert Fripp - From King Crimson to Guitar Craft I talk to the wind/Los Gauchos Alemanes Eric Tamm RF book available in UK Schizoid Dimension -- new KC covers ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: "Andrew Fignar Jr." Subject: Re:G3 Video Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:13:12 -0400 Quoting Mr. Craig... >So ... did he exclude himself entirely from this document? Does he play on >the tape's version of Red House, and just got neglected on the packaging? >Frankly, I don't have the slightest interest in this unless I get to hear >Robert Fripp play some of my *other* favorite guitarist's tunes. Fripp is a late comer to G3, the video was made from the first tour in 96, same with the CD. Fripp is such a small part of this tour, even if he was on it, 2 or 3 minutes of his soloing would not be worth it. Get Fripp Live In Japan or one of the many videos that exist w/ Fripp. What I find interesting is Fripp keeps playing with Ex-Zappa Alumni guitarists! Three to date... Adrian Belew, Steve Vai, Mike Keneally. Zappa trained them well! Of course they had to be near genius just to get in the band! Frank had a knack for getting great talent in his band. I really like Robert's guitar playing! The soundscapes at G3 were great, but yet the crowd didn't appreciate it. I sure would love to hear more of these G3 soundscapes (hint). I'm getting tired of hearing the Detroit one over and over. Another ET'er wrote....... >Kenny Wayne Shepherd was a pretty damnned good guitarist. I like blues, >and he does them well. However, Vai and Satriani did their typical >wank-fest solos at the end. Compared to RF and KWS, these guys have >one-tenth the soulfulness in their playing. Shepherd played nothing that hasn't been done before, (YAWN), all I saw was a mimic of real blues. Sorry I'm biased living in Detroit, and so near Chicago, you hear real blues here all the time. But he is young, he will develop, and he is going in a good direction! Vai can put a lot of soul in his music, he has great skill, and is athletic at playing, but hey different strums for different bums man! He is one of the rare people who can play by ear I.e. can tell what notes are played, and has transcribed Zappa's Guitar solos by ear (his first job w/ FZ) Has had his classical works performed. The man has many talents. I myself would rather hear Fripp, Zappa, or Belew, but this is just taste. I love guitar music, doesn't matter what style, if it's performed well I'm impressed. Something I would like to point out too is RF approached G3 to join, he wasn't asked. Tells you something of his opinion of these gentleman. >If you're looking for music >though...I'd leave after the opening act. Not true! Plus you missed the opening act! How can you give a review of an event you were not even present at, or even hear. You have the making of most rock critics (G)! Go for it! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:53:42 -0500 From: "Chris 'Coz' Costello" Subject: Re: G3 Video sans Fripp? > Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:04:02 -0600 (MDT) > From: david craig > Subject: G3 Video sans Fripp? > > Just saw a G3 video in a store up here, which promises on the box a CD as > well. It has the "Red House" closer, but none of the pictures on the box > show Fripp, nor is there any mention of him in print that I could find. > > So ... did he exclude himself entirely from this document? Does he play on > the tape's version of Red House, and just got neglected on the packaging? Fripp didn't join G3 until the second go-round. The first tour, which featured Eric Johnson instead of the really lame Kenny Wayne Sheppard, was the origin of the CD and video. Later, COZ -- +-- | Chris 'Coz' Costello / "Hipness is transient. You have to | http://www.tezcat.com/~coz / change in order to be continually | coz at tezcat dot com / hip." - Vinnie Colaiuta | ---+ ------------------------------ From: "Dave Lane" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:18:49 -0400 Subject: Providence, USA I think either Lorie Campos or Rajeev wrote: > One of the best performances by King Crimson is the version of Easy > Money found on USA. [...] Unfortunately, on USA the piece fades out right in the middle of the > instrumental. I have long hoped that the full version would some day > come out if USA is ever rereleased. I was therefore surprised to read > that all of USA actually is available between The Great Deceiver and > Frame By Frame. Actually, this turns out not to be true. None of the > versions of Easy Money on GD is the same as the USA version. I think I've written to ET a couple of times already on this issue, going back to roughly the time when The Great Deceiver box was first issued. There was also a thread going on the same topic in rec.music.progressive, though it preceded services such as DejaNews. If you don't want to see a relatively small subject discussed in excruciating detail, skip the rest of this article. > While most > of USA may have been recorded at Providence (6/30/74), the Providence > Easy Money is clearly not the USA version. (The same holds true for the > Providence Exiles and Schizoid Man) This is not entirely true IMO. My ears tell me that, with the obvious exception of Asbury Park, all of the tracks on USA are based on the performances from Providence that is included in The Great Deceiver. Before you go dismissing me as a lunatic, try listening closely to the recordings yourself. In the most recent ET, Paul M. Davies tells us that David Singleton ("the horse's mouth") claimed that all of USA save for Schizoid is from Asbury Park. I would respectfully have to say that either Paul or David is mistaken, and that the only way my ears would allow me to believe that statement would be if I found that the Providence set on The Great Deceiver was actually a mislabeled Asbury Park show. On this subject, I would only characterize as "the horse's mouth" someone who had a hand in the compiling of USA. Don't go digging around for other people's opinions one way or the other, just listen for yourself. Remember, I wrote that they are *based* on the Providence recordings; I didn't claim that they were the same versions. Here is how I came to this conclusion: If you don't have one already, make yourself a cassette dub of USA, to allow yourself to easily cue up to specific sections of the album to allow closer repeated listenings. The main thing to keep in mind when comparing the tracks from TGD & USA is to pay very close attention to one specific aspect of the track as a point of reference; on most tracks this would mean focusing on Wetton's vocals, where there are any. I found that playing the CD and the cassette simultaneously, with one of them running about 5 seconds ahead of the other, allowed an easy means of a/b comparison by simply switching the receiver between Tape and CD. Now, to the individual tracks: LTIA2: It is readily apparent that there is violin playing on the USA version that you can't hear on TGD--a no-brainer; Jobson's violin overdubs are mentioned in the credits. You'll also notice that the crowd noises are different between the two versions at the same points in the performance. So what? Disregard this. These are different mixes of the same performance. Don't believe me? Focus in on Fripp's playing. I am not a musician, but I can tell there are little nuances to his playing that appear in both versions that could not possibly come from different performances even if he, as an imperfect human despite all evidence to the contrary, tried to duplicate the performance exactly. LAMENT: Much of what I just wrote about LTIA2 holds true for this track, except for the overdubs. Again, we have slightly different mixes of the same performance. The easiest way to tell is to focus on Wetton's vocal inflections and apply the "human" test described above. EXILES: Same as LAMENT. EASY MONEY: Here is where things really get confusing, but again, the basic recording is from Providence, despite a lot of evidence that might lead one to conclude otherwise. A cursory listen, or even a focused listen homing in on the wrong details would lead you to believe that these are from totally different performances. I thought so myself, but investigated further when someone claimed that Tamm's book (whose release preceded TGD) was correct in saying that the bulk of USA was from Providence. I found that there were a lot of differences: 1 - You might say that the vocals on USA's EASY MONEY are very different from the ones on TGD's, and you'd be right. They are, but they're the same performance, only on USA the vocals have been put through some sort of electronic processing to make them sound fuzzy. If you pay close attention to Wetton's vocal inflections, you'll find that they're from the same performance. 2 - The guitar tracks are totally different. But they are different even while backing vocal parts that are identical in both recordings. IMO the only way to explain this is to assume there were overdubs. 3 - The drums are different. See (2). 4 - All of the instrumental tracks in the solo section are different. The USA version fades out, omitting the final outro verse from TGD. Here it would seem that Fripp spliced in a section from at least one other performance. This is certainly not without precedent; Frank Zappa started doing this in the sixties (King Kong on Uncle Meat, for an example), and both TGD and Epitaph have examples of this phenomenon which might have gone unnoticed were they not mentioned in the liner notes. I'd guess that the front end of the song is the Providence version with overdubs, and from the solo onward, including the last verse and fade out, it's from a different concert, perhaps also with overdubs. > My guess is that the USA Easy Money was recorded at Asbury > Park on 6/28/74. This would make sense since Asbury Park > was the day before Penn State. Perhaps the 2nd half of Easy Money if from Asbury Park. Someone with a substantial tape collection might be able to identify its origin. Anyone with a tape of Asbury Park out there? SCHIZOID: Here, as with LTIA2, we have violin overdubs courtesy of Jobson, and some fuzzed vocals, but the Fripp and Cross solos are identical, and if you ignore the fuzz, the vocal tracks are the same. Conclusion: Aside from Asbury Park, every track on USA is substantially based on the same recordings represented by the Providence set included in the Great Deceiver. It would be nice if Fripp would comment on this issue sometime; it comes up frequently. --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:50:09 -0400 From: jmc at sdr dot utias dot utoronto dot ca (James MacKenzie Crawford) Subject: Re: G3 Video sans Fripp? The G3 video and CD set documents the first G3 tour, with Eric Johnson, Steve Vai, and Joe Satriani. This was before RF had anything to do with the project. I think the only reason I'd buy this would be for Keneally, but I already have Soap Scum Remover (which is a pure joy to watch - plug, plug) so thare you are. Cheers, James C. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 15:21:24 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Tinkering with art It's been interesting to read the reactions to the post awhile back (sorry, I forget who sent it) about creating a collage of KC music a la "Grey Folded". The question of whether or not it is acceptable to tinker with someone else's work of art seems to have no simple answer. One extreme view is that art is sacrosanct and you shouldn't mess with it. But if this is true, then works such as side 2 of Eno's "Discreet Music" and all of Tom Phillips' work (he created the cover for "Starless & Bible Black") are sinful, because they are based on the concept of taking someone else's creation and tweaking it in a way that produces new effects unintended by the creator. (For that matter, jazz originated when musicians took standards and "ragged" them -- who thinks that shouldn't have happened?) As another example, in college I was a DJ, and I always derived enjoyment from assembling cuts that fit together well -- the juxtaposition itself produced an effect that did not exist in any individual piece. Now I do the same thing by creating compilation tapes for my own personal enjoyment. Occasionally I even tinker with a song in a very simplistic way, e.g., fading it in late or out early. I don't consider myself an amoral person, but I honestly don't see the harm in this. Is that so different from the proposed collage? Curtis Franks in #427 proposed that the primary criterion is to respect the wishes of the artist -- if he/she doesn't want you to mess with his/her work, don't. This makes sense in theory, but in practice, I would say that the vast majority of records I own are by artists whose views on the subject are not made explicit (although I take it as axiomatic that most artists don't want other people to make money off their work without permission). And even if you know the artist's wishes, how far are you obligated to go? If an artist conceived an album to be experienced as an integrated whole, is it a sin if I listen only to cut 5? I'm not saying that it's OK for anybody to do anything they want with another person's art, just that it's tricky to specify the line between acceptable and unacceptable tinkering. My own criteria seem to be that an "authorized" copy of an artwork (e.g., a CD, book, or print), legitimately purchased, becomes the property of the purchaser, and said purchaser has the right to tinker with it to his or her little heart's content -- at least, as long as the tinkering remains private and not-for-profit. -- Chris Jepson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:05:38 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Fripp&sensehumor/RF&space Hi,HO;Michael Flatherey's post is a thread that interests me.I to get a kick out of Bopin Bobbie's sense of humor.During the VH1/New Visons TV program I talked about last posting,before commercial,RF; "I'm not going to thank you!"" Thankyou." Remember it is a SENSE of humor!I do admire his wit.Also most of the Eters' wit I find humorous,intentional or not. Grant Colburn's post was also of interest.I also wondered if just RF and Bill/Tony would be a better Crimson? But I trust Robert on this one ,he knows best!He knows what Crimson needs at this point in time better than anyone. IMHO I feel giving up space is one of several reasons RF is a world class master musician!On American TV 60 minutes Mike Wallace asked Lenord Bernstien,"What is the hardest instrument to play?" Bernstein's reply was" second fiddle!" RF is the Jack Benny of space and time[admirable restraints and all]!! Buffy, I do remember your article,and it was very insightful....What have you written lately that may peak my curiosity, besides your usual good ET banter. Warmly, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 16:37:45 CDT From: "Eric Anderson" Subject: Mellotron Rock In ET #426 William Jacobson wrote: If the thread isn't dead yet, my tinglers are typically Fripp's fuzz tone and his Frippian Hi-Watt crunch playing, and practically any Mellotron sound. "Starless" has that achingly beautiful melody played by Fripp over a wash of Mellotronic glory. The Great Deceiver album's version on the third CD with David Cross playing the melody on violin doesn't move me the way Fripp's playing on Red does. A great example of Frippian crunch with Mellotron is in "Sailor's Tale" from Islands. Your comparison of Fripp and Cross's mellotron ability aren't fair since all of Red's mellotron parts (save Providence) were recorded in the studio, while most of the S&BB album (referred to as the Great Deceiver album, just clarifying your point as I understand it) were recorded live. Fripp has admitted that playing the mellotron live isn't (to paraphrase Frippian). Many of the tracks you mentioned as representing Fripp's proficiency with the mellotron over Cross's proficiency were recorded in the studio, where Fripp had the chance to balance levels, mic carefully, and do different takes if he had too. Cross, on the other hand, only had one chance in dim lighting, with Wetton's stack two feet away from him. Granted these are the same conditions that Fripp had to play mellotron under, but there are also plenty of examples on TGD which show Fripp struggling with the same elements as Cross. Essentially, I feel that Cross's studio contributions on mellotron are equal to Fripp's, and that Cross himself was able extend his mellotron ability beyond most of his contemporaries. Eric Anderson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:56:57 +0100 From: Gudrun Mas Subject: A discovered Fripp announcement on CD Dear readers Those who have the Thrang Thrang Gozinbulx CD of the League of the Gentlemen should chenck track 13 out. Long after the song finishes, around minute 13 of that track we hear Fripp talking to the crowd. He is reminding the audience that this is a dance band and people should dance. Take a listen. -- Orn Orrason Dipl.Ing. (Communication Engineer) Email : ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is Tel : (Univ.) (354) 525 4699 (PTI) (354) 589 9111 Homepage: http://www.kerfi.hi.is/~ossi ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 00:00:52 +0100 From: Gudrun Mas Subject: Announcing a web page of the Night Watch playback event Dear readers. I have composed a multimedia web page of the Night Watch playback event. This page is full og JPEGs, MPEGs (high quality ones) and Real Audio samples. Please take a virtual tour to he playback on http://www.verk.hi.is/~ossi/playback/playback.html Have fun and patience.. regards p.s. the Night Watch CD sounds suberb. May the next Live release not be USA however, some new music please. -- Orn Orrason Dipl.Ing. (Communication Engineer) Email : ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is (w) ossi at isholf dot is (h) Tel : (Univ.) (354) 525 4699 (PTI) (354) 589 9111 Homepage: http://www.kerfi.hi.is/~ossi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:45:11 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: G3 Show Colorado Greetings Talkers, It has been three days since seeing the G3 show at the Mammoth Gardens in Denver. There are no Gardens, and the event had a surealistic feel to it. I am not going to comment of the G3 part of the night, they are not really my cuppa tea, and I knew that walking in the door. Fripp was his usual self, altho much more relaxed. He wore his usual Black and White. Playing when we got there. It was very demanding for the audient to be there in the noisy rude sticky, atmosphere, and to be THERE with the music. Quite a Discipline, and it really has me wondering just what Fripp was getting at. I think he was playing peices from Pie Jesu. The music was wonderful, moving, all the things those of us who love Fripp like. The audience was something else, really hard, diffucult, and full of the kinda ego I can't stand to be around. A woman was shoveling Coke up her nose in the Ladies Powder room, and I haven't seen that since the early 80's. Some joker behind me seemed more intent on insutling me the more I got into it, even wondering out very loudly what sort of thing I was tripping on, when in reality I was totaly drug free except for a wee sip of foam off my pals beer. So this is what sort of shit RF is up against night after night thought I. Mammoth itself was rotten, the worst sound since the JR. High School stage in the caffeteria......painfuly compressed and flat with no place to really go,just distorts and bounces back. But, the music was so compelling,RF played about an hour and a half and it seemed like just a few minutes. O, to have had 5 hours of Soundscapes! My friend Wrnhawk who had never been exposed to RF live,accompanied me, and it was fun to see her catch the germ and did she ever catch it! It's been cool watching her walk around with that dazzeled tingled and bemused look us Fripp vets have, she loved it!And to quote her reaction "Damn!I wish her would have played longer. It took me to Jupiter, and I could have gotten to Pluto if it had lasted longer!" (she's an astrologer) Since I live on Pluto I just second the Damn! (I wish it had lasted an eternity)and guess what? He played Skysaw Guitar! Really! The Encore was fun, Satriani was a little more sedate and less reptilian, some kid in the front row got to play Steve Vais' guitar, I think his name was Brad, and he gave it his best shot. and it was so weird to see RF play Blues licks!! The brain is not prepared for what the senses took in. Amazing, one of the strangest rock shows I have ever been at.I'd pretty much go see RF under any cicumstance, but I don't want to repete this one! Even if he did have a good laugh or two. And at the concessions stand they were selling DGM, both Sometimes God Hides and Pie Jesu ( which is what I bought and why I think i know what he played) for 5$. I was a happy fan to get a copy of Pie Jesu....and for those of you out there who use RF music to meditate ( and I know you are out there!) Wow! The title track is incedible!!What an adventure thru color. Basicaly, Robert was a doll (can I say that about the team leader?) the music was heaven sent, and Fripp generated, the show package was horrible, the crowd worse, and the venue even worse than that......next time Robert, you darling odd person, I hope to hear your creative inspiring Soundscapes played at a Bookstore, Coffee Shop, Park, Mountain Top or Church. (the latter would be the best!) Love, Auntie Gail PS Fisher King is my favorite movie , Brazil is right up there, and another fav not mentioned before is Fanny and Alexander, but the American dub is awful. PPS Yes! isuspect many of us are eccentric as can be, am one of the stranger people I know, but long ago decided to be comfortable with myself. PPSS. Here Comes the Flood could cetainly be about the Necula threat,it's a part of the Dark Night of humanity to be sure. And it's something that has crossed my mind ,too, about those lyrics. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:48:08 +0100 From: Dave Bradshaw Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #426 > >you've probably had this before,but...is it true that sinfield wrote the >lyrics to the buck's fizz hit "land of make believe" - the lyrics being a >comment on thatcherism?!any info. (or the lyrics!)would be welcome... > Yes it is true. It is on "Are You Ready" , my wife's record collection. And here are the lyrics. I copied them out from listening to it, so I hope you appreciate it, and there are no guarantees of accuracy: Stars in your eyes, little one Where do you go to dream To a place we all know The land of make believe Shadows, tapping at your window Ghostly voices whisper will you come and play Not for all the tea in China All the corn in Carolina Never, never ever They're running after you Run for the sun, little one You're an outlaw once again Time to change, Superman We'll be where the smile began The land of make believe Something nasty in your garden Waiting patiently til it can have your heart Try to go but it won't let you Don't you know it's out to get you Running, keep on running (chorus) Your world is turning, from night to day Your feast(?) is burning, fire(?) Fly(?) to the moon, you and I To the circus in the sky Captain Kidd, from the sand With the Treasure close at hand In the land of make believe I haven't heard that the lyrics are a comment on Thatcherism, if they are, they aren't very hard hitting. Much better "Stand Down Margaret" by the Beat. Peter Sinfield wrote on some of the other tracks on the LP, including one called "Twentieth Century Hero". It sounds nothing like TCSM. Fast and Bulbous ------------------------------ From: "Rex Jackson" Subject: Bowie and Reeves Gabrels Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:56:16 -0400 Inspiration Jones: http://home.att.net/~rexjackson From: djdowling at earthlink dot net Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 19:27:36 -0400 Subject: Bowie in Boston >I had the pleasure of seeing Bowie at the Orpheum in Boston on Sept. 30 and >it was so good that I went back the next night.The band was amazing: All >you Fripp fanatics who are not familiar with the work of Reeves Gabrels >(guitarist) should get acquainted. His superb command of the instrument >coupled with outrageously and expertly utilized effects make his music a >joy and terror to hear. It's worth mentioning that Bowie and Reeves were in the historic Sigma studios on Thursday, 2 October. This studio is owned by someone I feel lucky to call a friend of mine and it's where Bowie cut Young Americans. I think Bowie and Reeves have been on a real roll since they hooked up with each other in the late 80's. Last year I saw the Bowie/NIN tour on it's stop at the Lakewood Amphitheatre in Atlanta and Reeves opened the show with a solo set. For those of you who missed the tour, Nine Inch Nails played a full set and then they were joined by Bowie and Reeves. Bowie sang several songs of his own and songs by Nine Inch Nails while backed by Nine Inch Nails. Then Bowie's band took the stage and Trent remained to sing a couple of Bowie tunes before turning the rest of the night over to David and his band. Classic. -Rex ------------------------------ Date: 10 Oct 1997 20:10:42 -0700 From: "Carmen Breslin" Subject: for your earsake Hello. I am writing in response to this post: >Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:08 +0100 (BST) >From: Alan dot Maguire at mercer dot ie >Subject: Adrian Belews day job. >I picked up a copy of Adrian Belews Acoustic album the other day and > noticed theres a version of Crying (the Roy Orbison tune)on it. But > the liner notes say Adrian wrote all the songs on the album. Am I > missing something here? In fact you ARE missing something. A closer read of said liner notes reveals the following: All songs written by Adrian Belew and published by Saiko Music Co. (ASCAP) EXCEPT "If I Fell" by Lennon/McCartney... "Matte Kudasai" by Belew/Bruford/Fripp/Levin... "Old Fat Cadillac" published by Carb Music (ASCAP) "Crying" by ORBISON/MELSON published by Acuff Rose/R.Key Darkus/Orbi Lee (BMI). -- TiM SaLMoN, San Francisco. ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Fri, 10 Oct 97 23:08:52 -0400 Subject: Fripp On G3 Video In ET 426 Dave Craig Inquired The Following: DC>> Just saw a G3 video in a store up here, which promises on the box a CD as DC>> Just saw a G3 video in a store up here, which promises on the box a CD as DC>> well. It has the "Red House" closer, but none of the pictures on the box DC>> show Fripp, nor is there any mention of him in print that I could find. Dave; This video was recorded on the 1996 G3 tour. It includes Eric Johnson, Steve Vai, and Joe Satriani, so no Fripp. Les B. Labbauf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:40:06 -0400 From: louis courteau Subject: Les Cowboys allemands + varia To DuB Alemanes is Spanish for German (allemands in francese) and Los Gauchos Alemanes is all plain Spanish for The German Gauchos. As there was quite a load of rich German immigrant arrivals in the South American pampa after WWII, I suggest this refers to Aryan South American ranchers. I don't know that much about Spanish, but in French a cowboy is said cowboy and a gaucho gaucho, and they're not the same. BTW, who the beep are they? Re: Vai it's just too sad if you can't enjoy watching a clown play gnat notes on a guitar. Cause if you can, you're having much more fun than if you can't. Re: tingles Three. Chronologically: Keith Tippet's first swing accent on the Bolero, four bars before the oboe is overriden by the trombone. That's the section d'or of the whole Lizard concept album, my all-time favorite no. 2. The studio Sailor's Tale guitar solo. The chords... the a-rhythmatic sound. My first hearing of Discipline, my all-time favorite no. 1, and the same on the Palais Montcalm stage 2-3 weeks later. louis courteau loco at caractera dot com If you think you are free, do not attach publicity to your mail. ------------------------------ From: "=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Micha=B3_Kopczak?=" Subject: Re: Robert Fripp & Van der Graff Generator Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 09:34:09 +0100 HI ETER'S :))))) Robert Fripp's most important records with VDGG & Peter Hammill are: "H to He, Am I the Only One?" 1970 (one or two tracks) "Pawn Hearts" 1971 (Really, really great album. One of the best progressive productions of '70's. Interesting, it seems, that most of them are withthe Robert the Great as a guitarist....). Peter Hammill: "Fool's Mate" - first LP of Peter Hammill . Acoustic solo in the end of album is totally destructing. You can find RF occasionally on few other releases of PH. = KEEP THRAKKED ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 06:31:05 -0400 (EDT) From: skantere Subject: my little findings Dear Friends, I've always marveled how seemingly unrelated posts, juxtaposed in ET, can fit each other like bits of a jigsaw puzzle and help to unveil secret episodes of Fripp/KC history. Consider this: >> From: "Rob and Diane" >> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:33:12 -0400 >> ... >> On 1 May, 1974 at the Felt Forum in New York City >> ... >> Fripp after a few tunes adressed the audience about some groupies >> wanting to "make a plaster casting of my genital member" >> ... A rather odd announcement, isn't it? Not quite as modest as we came to expect from Mr. Fripp. And as everything emitted by him, it ought to have served some Aim. In this case, one important enough to justify the controversy. So what was it? Even an occasional ET reader will have read enough trustworthy evidences of Fripp's undebatable and overpowering greed to guess right away: it was the camouflaged market probe for a then-planned Fripp merchandise item. Once again Robert has proved himself a relentless innovator, and not just in music. The response, however, was apparently less than owherwhelming. No "I want it too, Bob!" shouts are reported, although I can attribute this to the faulty phrasing. Fripp's mention of groupies wanting to "make a casting" unintentionally suggests that it's the process of actually MAKING it that is valuable, rather than the POSSESSION of one. In this reading, the hidden offer must have sounded too compelling to be possible to one part of the audience, and somewhat hairy to the other. Undoubtedly, Fripp should have used another verb here - his talent and ambition notwithstanding, some marketing experience could help! However, at least one sample WAS built, which becomes clear from the following: >> Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 22:20:16 -0800 >> From: rtc at sirius dot com (Robert Cambra) >> >> Melody Maker requested that Eno keep a diary for them for a week and >> the results of this request were published in their 29 January 1977 >> edition. This bit from the Monday entry may be of interest to ET >> readers: >> >> I receive a letter from Fripp, a reply to the one I wrote to him >> suggesting that we get together again soon. He says, "I am prepared to >> work with you only if you buy from me a brand-new dildo..." 2 years and 8 months old dildo, to be exact. >> He goes on to describe its sophistication and versatility... And suspiciously doesn't mention the material (more on this later). >> ...and requests that I send him #28 immediately "before your career >> suffers further by delay." Wonderful example of Fripp's very special sense of humor! Make no mistake - the request for money is serious. >> He signs himself Meanie Mouth. Well, THIS is a clear reference to the marketing mistake he has made orally back in 1974. It's fascinating to think that if not for this little slip of the tongue, we would all now probably have Meanie's ..er.. partial likenesses in our homes. What they would be made of, is another question. Of course, plaster is not sturdy enough to endure years of usage as an argument in family quarrels over listening levels. Also, it's a rather grainy material, which would result in less-than-perfect definition and considerable distortion. Remember, there were lots of more suitable materials available, even in 1974. So why plaster? The recent information "leakage" from DGM just affirmed my suspicions. Of course, treacherous Fripp was making a reservation for himself to come up with bronze, digitally remastered Definitive Edition a few years later (not counting numerous vinyl half-speeds and what not). And by now, we would surely have been made to part with our miserable earnings several times: couple of more years, and he makes the aluminum, re-remastered Ultimate Edition; then he admits there were overdubs by some porn-star and removes them, and so on... We should all be grateful to wise Eno, who couldn't have the silly penis replica stand in the way of the Music. The fact that his next collaboration with Fripp ("Before And After Science") came out within a year from the incident, tells us that he has promptly relieved Fripp of the artifact. I wonder if he then backfired, subtracting #28 from Fripp's proceeds? Even if not, I'm sure he does not regret this purchase, since the item should have immensely grown (in value) over these 20 years. Thanks to fellow ETers for insightful posts. I hope this modest research will be added to ET FAQ. Love - and usual disclaimer :) - Sergei Kantere Moscow, Russia ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 05:40:26 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: Re: theoretical bootlegging Emory (ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com) wrote: > I remember getting frisked at some Fripp events and being rather > pissed at this, I considered it a violation of sorts (and couldn't help > thinking i've never been frisked at a sold-out classical event). Perhaps you should take it upon yourself to start bootlegging and releasing every classical concert you can- enough to make it an industry-wide problem where the lost revenues actually make up a double digit percentage of legitimate sales. The frisking at classical concerts would soon begin. With Fripp's going on about the performer not being able to choose the audience, I sometimes wonder if the classical audience would be preferable for him- no bootlegging and no need for frisking. Bootlegging is clearly not a problem in classical music, therefore there is no need to frisk the audience. Bootlegging is clearly a big problem in rock, therefore you get frisked. Want to stop the frisking? Eliminate bootlegging. If you had to constantly see stolen recordings of your music in stores or read email from people discussing their personal tapes or proudly announcing their intention to make a tape or otherwise steal your music, you'd be frisking your audience reliably every night- twice even. I know I would. If you could 1.) be frisked, and then 2.) have your music stolen, I wonder which you would consider a greater violation. Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham, Alabama ------------------------------ From: Jeff Liss Subject: Couple o' thoughts Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 19:31:12 +-900 I'm excited about the new releases Adrian talked about. I don't think that 1984 shows are representative of the 80's band, but I think that with the release of the Night Watch we can see that the archival releases are not strictly box set by box set ... we'll probably see other 80's releases. At least I hope so. BTW, I saw Earthbound on CD here in Tokyo; the price was about $100 US. Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:21:36 -0500 (CDT) From: flaherty michael w Subject: Mr.D; Sleepless 12"; Emmanuelle; Eccentric; Adrian Just my two cents worth, for anyone who cares, on recent issues 1) "Dancing With Mr. D" is indeed on "Goat's Head Soup." It's a piece of Alice Cooper style B-movie horror that has more in common with "Monster Mash" than with K.C. 2) I have, tucked away with the rest of my records, the 12" of "Sleepless". I doubt that it's on CD: if it is it's very rare--CDs were just taking off at that time. I would describe it as very ... well,, 80s. 3) I have a bootleg of an early 80s KC concert that, on the back cover, reprints an article Mr. Fripp wrote about bootlegs. He refers to the use of "Lark's Toungue" in a "pornographic film." It may be the one you mention. He was less than happy about the situation, but he says that they did come to an agreement of some type. 4) Robert Fripp is not an eccentric, unless you define eccentric as "an original thinker who refuses to follow popular trends." That is not my definition of an eccentric, but of an interesting person. 5) I like Adrian as a member of KC: he fulfills a valuable function within that contexts. I am not interested (for reasons that have nothing to so with anything but my personal tastes) in his solo work, which is why I am very unhappy to learn that in order to get the "Beat" outtakes (my favorite 80s KC) I will need to buy a five CD set of Mr. Belew's. Perhaps these tracks can be made available seperately? Please? Toby: Your work on this page is essential. Thank you. If this is too long or boring (or, particularly, if 20 people are giving the same info) feel free to cut it up. ------------------------------ From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Make your own USA from TGD Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:39:22 -0700 Some people seem to be really obsessing about the loss or supposed disappearance of USA. I have never heard this album, but I do enjoy TGD. Here's a little recipe for turning a 4 CD set into a kick ass 90 minute tape. It won't replace USA but it sure rocks. Side One Sharks' Lungs In Lemsip (disc 2) Larks' Tongues In Aspic One (disc 4) Lament (disc 1) Exiles (disc 3) Fracture (disc 4) Starless (disc 1) Side Two Book Of Saturday (disc 2) Easy Money (disc 4) We'll Let You Know (disc 2) The Night Watch (disc 3) Wilton Carpet (disc 3) The Talking Drum (disc 4) Larks' Tongues In Aspic Two (disc 1) 21st Century Schizoid Man (disc 2) Suggestions & commentary are welcome. Epitaph 90 minutes condensation coming soon. Andy Gower ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:26:46 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: bass solos >That would be the lovely, the talented, Mr. Stu Hamm. Over time, however, I >actually *have* heard better bass solos, particularly Victor Wooten (Bela >Fleck & the Flecktones), Oteil Burbridge (Col. Bruce Hampton & the >Aquarium Rescue Unit), and Victor Bailey (Steps Ahead). Stu's is still >pretty damn good, far and away the high point of both of the Satriani shows >that I've seen. Not to horn in, but as a jazz listener I have to say that sometimes the talk of great solos doesn't include jazz artists and it should. Yes, Stu Hamm played a cool solo. However, there is more to playing well solo than riffing and popping. Some great solo bass can be heard by Dave Holland (who has two whole albums of it, and one album of solo cello), or how about Foley McCreary? An unbelievable bass player who played with Miles Davis in the 80's. Jaco Pastorius is another giant on bass. Some of his solos are truly unbelievable. Get any of the bootlegs of Jaco (he's dead now, so I don't think he'll mind) at Tower Records and you will see what I mean. David Friesen is a great jazz bassist out of Portland that does some incredible work. Charles Mingus, another great bass player, Ron Carter, Ray Brown. Really, to me rock and jazz are two different worlds. I like a little bit of rock and lots of jazz. Once you've seen great jazz players, you see how much different their musical ability is from rock players. ================== "Morality is an outcome of the perception of the unity of all things." - Guitar Craft Monograph III ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:31:10 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: USA >Loire Campos wrote in ET#425 that the wonderful guitar solo on Easy Money >on USA does not appear on Great Deceiver. I reckon he's right. Whether >this justifies rereleasing USA (given the fact that the 1974 band is >well-served by live releases) I do not know, but it is a nice piece of >playing and one of my favourite Fripp solos. (Presumably, Loire, it ends >in the middle for a good reason: tape glitch, descent into mundanity, >mistake, etc.). >I spoke to David Singleton about USA at the "Nightwatch" playback. This >is what he told me: > >* All of USA, except Schizoid Man, was recorded at Asbury Park. I was pleased to see that USA was indeed performed in Asbury Park. Seeing all these posts suggesting that the stuff on USA was also on Great Deceiver was starting to make me sore. I have both, listened to both, and was saying "these people are crazy". They really don't sound alike at all. ================== "Morality is an outcome of the perception of the unity of all things." - Guitar Craft Monograph III ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:05:50 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: Curtis Franks post >Likewise I feel that a great number of ET subscribers are equally >unwilling to apologize on your behalf and would like to keep this >newsletter clean of such personal attacks at the views of the artist, whose >interests this newsletter was created to uphold. Now wait a minute here, I don't recall seeing in the description of ET that it was created to uphold the interests of RF. If you really feel that way, then why aren't you complaining about posts regarding ELP? Indeed, if this discussion group is about upholding the interests of RF only, then maybe we oughtn't discuss KC as well, since that is a collaborative project. I doubt that RF would claim to speak for Pat Mastelotto. This is a newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts. Whether you like it or not, there are going to be listeneres out there who listen to bootlegs. When Andy Warhol wrote his diaries, he obviously didn't expect that they would be made public. Undoubtedly the student works and sketches from the formative years of artists such as Picasso or Cezanne were not necessarily meant for public consumption. Letters between individuals are often sold at auction, containing material not meant for the public. The point is that the artist cannot always expect to be able to control their work as they would like. You are entitled to your opinion about bootleg recordings, but you cannot control the actions of other people. This is a free discussion group. ================== "Morality is an outcome of the perception of the unity of all things." - Guitar Craft Monograph III ------------------------------ From: groucho at thefree dot net (Stuart Nind) Subject: Robert Fripp - From King Crimson to Guitar Craft Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 20:20:59 +0100 Re Douglas Wrights request in issue #425 of Elephant Talk: The author of this book is Eric Tamm, it was published by Faber and Faber in 1990. I bought a copy from a bookshop in Cardiff ( it cost #9.99) about a year ago, so with any luck it should still be in print. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 16:33:44 +1300 (NZDT) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: I talk to the wind/Los Gauchos Alemanes Gustavo Enriquez asked: >I have a cover tecno-dance version from Crimson's "I talk to the wind " . >It's very interesting. The band includes a female vocalist, but I ignore >the name of this band. Does any ETer know it ? It is by British group Opus III, off their album "Mind fruit", and was released as a single. It's not too bad, but not as good as the original :) DuB queried: >Switching gears...has anyone been able to properly translate the group >name "Los Gauchos Alemanes"? Meaning, is it a mixture of Spanish and >French? Here's what I *think* I know: "los" in Spanish is "the" in >English; "gauchos" in Spanish is "cowboys" in English; "alemanes" in >French is...dunno. Any insights? It is Spanish for "The German cowboys". No French. James (favourite movies, 2001 - A space odyssey; Wings of desire; A fish called Wanda) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 04:09:09 -0400 From: Stewart Murrell Subject: Eric Tamm RF book available in UK Saw the messages in ET427 about getting hold of Eric Tamm's book "Robert Fripp -- From King Crimson to Guitar Craft". In case this information helps anyone, I bought a copy here in the UK about three months ago without any difficulty. Just asked my local book to order a copy from the publisher (Faber and Faber) and it took just over a week for it to arrive at the shop. ISBN is 0-571-16289-4. Marked price is US$13.95, UKL9.99. At the time, I also ordered Eric Tamm's book on Brian Eno, but it turned out to be out of print -- although the publisher was reportedly considering another print run if there was sufficient demand. (Just how they'd assess demand, I don't know...) Regards, Stewart. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 03:03:30 -0700 From: Robert Cervero Subject: Schizoid Dimension -- new KC covers The newly released CD of King Crimson covers, Schizoid Dimension, is, all in all, good stuff. At times it comes across as early Crimson meets celestial soundscapes. To hear the new Cross-Wetton version of Exiles (definitely the highlight) is worth the CD. It's a bit more jazzy than the original version of Exiles, with a more contemporary sound. The acoustic guitar in the middle passage (which I would guess is Wetton's playing) is a nice touch, as are the background harmonies toward the end. Wetton's vocals are powerful, as always. Other highlights are Talking Drum (Controlled Bleeding -- Frippertronics influence), A Sailor's Tale (Alein Planetscapes -- jamming alto sax spree, though the synth doesn't do justice to Fripp's guitar licks), and In the Wake of Poseidon (Solid Space -- the only mellotron on the whole CD, with a pronounced Giles-inspired percussion). There are two versions of Red (Brand X and Spirits Burning -- both guitarists clone Fripp riffs). All tunes are from the 69-74 period except one -- Neal and Jack and Me (Brand X do a splendid soulful version of this). Though all the artists are to be applauded for their contributions, I personally found the remaining covers to be either too tame (LTiA-I, by Melting Euphoria), spacey (Schizoid Man, by Pressurehed), flat (Moonchild, by Chrome), or techno (I Talk to the Wind, by Astralasia -- all female vocal that's strangely similar to the Opus II cover a few years earlier). What detracts from several other tunes is misplaced instrumentation: the substitution of a music machine for Fripp's signature guitar (Cirkus, by Architectural Metaphor -- also featuring a female vocalist) and the substitution of a guitar for vTippett's signature piano chops (Catfood, by Xcranium). The CD cover depicts a newly drawn, though near replica, of Schizoid Man and the Crimson King, both with large round dark-black eyes. Now talking about copyright infringement.....I rather doubt Barry Godber hiers will receive compense. It's unclear whether this venture has Fripp's blessing....or whether royalties with find their way to Robert's bank account. The liner notes give a thoughtful tribute to Fripp and his many versions of the Crimson King. I would rather suspect that if these covers cut the muster on copyright laws, then E.T.'s planned fan tribute of Crimson covers will be on safe ground. Schizoid Dimension is produced by Purple Pyramid, based in Marina Del Rey, CA. It's a must buy for any enthusiasts of early Crimson. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #428 ********************************