Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #427 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 427 Friday, 10 October 1997 Today's Topics: Bruford/Levin Collaboration Live & Let Live--And Keep It Lively Putting Thrak to work, & some fripperies Old Melody Maker stuff ethics Theoretical Bootlegging BasilePT2/Bowie Guitarists/UK Crimson lyrics on TV! Maybe you can helpl me find a book. Monty Python Fripp's writings: The definitive word the Trower/Fripp Connection Adrian bumheads SABB tracks from "Nightwatch" concert New '95 live KC? Re: Thrak Attacks Class! Re: Lizard's tongue Last Words on USA from the Horse's Mouth Fripp, eccentric? Dancing with Mr. D. Wayne Shorter Bass solos and contacting Bruford USA, Projeckt One Re: M. C. Crimson ? / Neuromancer Movie Trivia HERE COMES THE FLOOD Frippertronics for Patrick USA & Dots and Loops. NY Times Bootlegging Article Gong You Remix CD Eric Tamm's Book On Fripp/Guitar Craft Fripp Video Re: Another G3 review Whining about the Artist Shop ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: Bruford/Levin Collaboration Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:09:00 -0400 >During the 11 year gap between Crimson we all had to find our Crimso >thrills in other places, and I'm sure a lot of others like myself greatly >enjoyed Tony Levin's presence touring with Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, >Howe, the highlight being Tony's great back and forth with Bruford. BY FAR, AND BY A LONG, LONG WAY, this was the highlight of these excellent shows. My bootleg video of the Jones Beach show, which I attended, has a nice version of this "duet" >Well, just had a stop by Tony's site and he lists an upcoming project with >Bruford for next year - about time! Album name (I believe) will be >"Bruford Levin Upper Extremeties". YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!! Now, if Fripp would only find a way to release Moraz/Bruford "Music for Piano & Drums" on CD. That one's a masterpiece. Mark Perry once told me that MfP&D was a potential release of DGM, but apparently that's been shelved or put on the back burner or Mark had no clue what he was talking about. ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Live & Let Live--And Keep It Lively Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:29:24 -0400 In #424 "dumela" (or "tj") suggests "the thread as a person in the form of one known to us and himself as Eb should be seriously considered for curtailment." I strongly disagree with the sentiments behind that remarkably convoluted statement. I've had my disagreements with Eb, as who among us has not, but I do not find him disagreeable and I would miss him were he "curtailed." Why, in this very ET, only a few posts further along, here is Eb asking, "Why is Fripp pictured/acknowledged on the Damned's Light at the End of the Tunnel compilation?" That's not only a good question, it illustrates the depth of Eb's attention to and interest in an obscure detail such as that. Obviously Eb's interests are wide-ranging and diverse (musically; I know nothing else about him) and I think he brings that as an asset to this group and should be valued for it. The fact that he doesn't fawn upon the fatuous among us is a plus in my book; his attitude might be called "Zappaesque," but his posts are usually short and I view even his most acerbic remarks as needed seasoning for our discussions. Surely we can tolerate, maybe even enjoy such diversity of opinions. "Dumela"'s remark seems to come close to a demand for censorship; I hope that will never occur here. On another topic entirely, I recently picked up the CD, WOULDN'T IT BE NICE, "a jazz portrait of Brian Wilson," on Blue Note - and I'd like to warn Brian Wilson fans (of whom there are a number lurking here) against the album. The first clue is that this is a "Blue Note Contemporary" release. The music, with one exception, is basically of the easy-listening-quasi-jazz sort. It is bland and faithless to the music, and unless you're a fan of Don Grusin, the Yellowjackets, et al, and the interface between jazz and new age music, you'll probably find much of the album boring. The "one exception" is the five very short tracks by the Clark Burroughs Group that interleave the album. Burroughs was the original tenor in The Hi-Lows, a fifties vocal group with jazz leanings (a bit like the Four Freshmen - who were influences on the Beach Boys - but vocally more exhibitionistic), and his Group here is all-voices, accapella. They create some rich sounds that augment Brian's own vocal arrangements admirably. But they are only a small fraction of the hour-long CD. Buyer beware. --TW (Dr. P) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:00:57 -0400 From: James Bailey Organization: Southam Inc. Subject: Putting Thrak to work, & some fripperies Greetings folks. Sighted in (and cited from) MIX magazine, Aug. '97, review of Spendor SA300 near-field speakers by Barry Cleveland: "I did my most critical listening using five particularly dynamic and/or complex CDs, and five DATs of my own mixes. The CDs were Olivier Messiaen's _Couleurs de la Cite Celeste_ ...; Joe Zawinul's _My People_; King Crimson's _Thrak_; ... And now the fripperies (note the lower case f): 1/ An alternate reply to "Does Eb also go by D#?". Only if he was the drummer in Carla Bley's band in the late '70s and early '80s. 2/ Regarding Mel Collins credit on Milli Vanilli: But was he actually playing? ;-> 3/ One way of cutting down on the size of some posts is to EDIT OUT unnecessary parts of posts being replied to. Hey folks, these are COMPUTERS we're using here. We can remove things without having to use that messy white stuff that Mike Nesmith's mummy invented. Most people seem to realize this, but there are still a few who think it necessary to leave in everything including the kitchen sink (i.e. long sig's). 'Bye for now. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:23:34 -0400 From: James Bailey Organization: Southam Inc. Subject: Old Melody Maker stuff Hello again. Due to a bit of bad timing, here I am again with a second posting, mere moments after the last one. Originally, I was going to just submit a transcript of the Oct. 5th, 1974 article "Why I killed the King" to Dan (stand by Danny boy)for the interviews page, but looking through the Oct. 26th, 1974 issue from which an Eno interview was to be submitted to the Eno Web page, I noticed the following in their "Raver's Hot Licks" column: ... Odd rumour being put about by Tamla Motown;s UK office suggesting that Emerson, Lake, & Palmer are switching US distribution of their Manticore label from Atlantic to Motown since Herb Belkin joined Motown as creative director. LIGGERS Aquiline Eno plans (a) series of solo concerts in the New Year and hopes to use many of the liggers who play(ed) at the Ayers, Nico, Cale, Eno Rainbow concert on June 1. Eno hopes to do one half of the show as a duo with Bob Fripp, providing the apocalypse hasn't swept the Wimbourne Wizard away, and the second half will feature hopefully, Fripp, Cale, Phil Manzanera, Paul Thompson, Winkies bassist Brian Turrington and zooming Robert Wyatt. If the whole shamozzle comes together, the Fripp-Eno segments would be recorded for a live album. Four or five nights at Drury Lane's Theatre Royal or the Rainbow are mooted. ... just another bit of history. Also in the same issue; a review of Santana's Borboletta by Bill Bruford! Jim Bailey p.s. Yikes! There's a coincidence. As I type this the radio is playing "Radar Love" by Golden Earring who opened for KC in Toronto in....1974! ------------------------------ From: "Curtis Franks" Subject: ethics Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:58:10 -0500 In reply to the great number of postings concerning bootlegging, musical collage formation, etc.: The reason not to compile nonconsensual recordings of art is not (though should be) an issue of one's personal views, but an issue of the artist's views of his work. When a performer expresses that certain performances are so experience specific that a portion of the art itself lies in the experience and any extraction from the experience is a misrepresentation of art, an audient's position is not to disagree and make the extraction in reference to her differing morals. Moreover, the issue is not about money--neither is it about the distribution of such artistic extractions. Reading liner notes in the consensual recordings of an artist is a magnificent way to make certain of the artist's position on the issue. While I generally sift through the weaker postings in this newsletter, I cannot allow such a gross affront to Mr. Fripp go unnoticed, so often. Upon reading the scarcely denumerable recent posts with claims of nonconsensual recordings and reproduction which do not have as their purpose an economic or distributive motive, I felt a need to remind our circle that a personal justification of such breaches of contract does not suffice in overriding the expressed views of the artist concerning his art. As a general rule, one should consider why it is that she must justify her views. If any among you still feel strongly that your views on the matter force those of the artist to subserve, I pity you but do not apologize on your behalf. Likewise I feel that a great number of ET subscribers are equally unwilling to apologize on your behalf and would like to keep this newsletter clean of such personal attacks at the views of the artist, whose interests this newsletter was created to uphold. The simpler defense of this argument may very well lie in Mr. Fripp's own words on the matter: "Any act which violates the integrity of the performance punctures the atmosphere and prevents the performance from achieving its potential. In our performance culture many violations . . . --such as unauthorized photography and recording--are widespread and common place" (Robert Fripp, liner notes in "Radiophonics", Aug. 1995). This statement, saying nothing on whether the extractions are marketed or strictly private, is irrefutable by an audient. Sad that so many people do not have an innate moral understanding of such matters that I must appeal to scripting a doctrine of sorts, sad that Mr. Fripp must do the same. End. ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:17:56 -0400 Subject: Theoretical Bootlegging The blasphemer had the nerve to disagree with sometimes wrathful-diety Fripp: >I'm creating my vision of what King Crimson sounds like to me in >those moments when I don't have the CDs and a CD player nearby but I'm >thinking of their music. It is what I hear in my head from memory. Actually, this nears one aspect of bootlegging I've often thought about. I mean, imagine that we can know for sure that a bootlegger will not be selling this boot, and for argument's sake let's assume no one else will ever even hear it. I wonder, then: if i choose to use a taperecorder to "capture" my experience of a musical event, why should I not be able to (theoretically)? What if I have a medically defective memory, and that i use a taperecorder as some kind of theraputic tool? What I'm driving at is, doesn't the idea that a bootleg is inherently wrong interfere with my soveriegnty as an individual, to control my experiences, my memory, my hearing? I remember getting frisked at some Fripp events and being rather pissed at this, I considered it a violation of sorts (and couldn't help thinking i've never been frisked at a sold-out classical event). At the same time, I DO understand and sympathise with Fripp's own "demand", if you will, that the audience "be there". As has been discussed before, our society has caused as false dichotmy between the "entertainers", and us unwashed masses that "consume" the entertainment product. In a REAL musical event, the audience in part makes the event. So I guess I can't disagree with fripp's desire to sort of force the audience to "be there" by wishing away the taperecorders, but I also think that perhaps interfering with our internal mechanisms for absorbing/integrating the experience is misguided. (And of course, the reality is that if you allow taperecording, the artist looses the legal control over his work, but that's a whole different issue.) So as I said before, I theoretically don't necessarily disagree with the idea of bootlegging, but practically is a different story. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:43:47 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: BasilePT2/Bowie Guitarists/UK Hi Again; Listen to FASHION on the radio today,I wondered why I didn't love all of Bowie's work like SCARY MONSTERS,and other less recent Bowie works. TIN MAN cd I bought for a dollar and gave away,I didn't love one song, were as MAN WHO SOLD THE WORLD I loved from cover to cover. IMHO,it seems David needs a strong guitarist to inspire him,motivate him or what ever.Most of the songs with the late Mick Ronson I love,WIDTH OF A CIRCLE being my favorite.All of Roberts efforts I crave.Even the SRV playing was exceptional,as well as Townshend guest spots from time to time.Well if there is something I am missing, please let me know,because I am inclined to agree with a previous ETer that said the popish LET'S DANCE album with SRV, was the last solid Bowie album. While on guitarist theme, on my above post on the UK web site,I learned that when Alan Holdsworth left the band they asked Gary Moore of Thin Lizzy,BBM, and another favorite of mine who was their opening act...Eric Johnson to join UK. Both managers wanted them to continue there solo work.I did like the popish Danger Money, but could you Imagine if any of these two guitarist did this gig...powerful food for thought... IMHO,Bruford and Holdsworth edge was a nice edge to the pop/Asia blend of the others.Losing both created to much of a whole to fill as a three piece,no edge.Now with Johnson or Moore this would have been tighter and more balanced.Again IMHO.Oh, I read in a Fripp interview that Bill asked Robert to be in the first UK,Imagine that!["Imagine That!", a favorite saying of baseball great Pittsburghs' own Honus Wagner. ] Finally, being a former baseball coach/teacher,I would skip lunch to do my coaching work.Now out of coaching, ET has kept me thin and trim.Maybe I should start eating again.... Warmly, Joe ------------------------------ From: llarsen at sco dot com (Lance F. Larsen) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 18:09 EDT Subject: Crimson lyrics on TV! I've seen a lot of posts about Crimso music appearing in various movies and TV shows, but I think this a new twist! In a recent episode of the sitcom "Due South" one of the characters borrowed a bit of dialogue from Crimso. While interrogating a suspect, Det. Ray Vecchio says "I repeat myself when under stress. I repeat myself when under stresss." I had recovered enough by the time the credits rolled at the end of the show, but I didn't see any mention of Crimson. o --- ---- | / / Lance F. Larsen | / / |/ / llarsen at sco dot com o | / o |/ (908)790-2335 | --- o ------------------------------ From: "Alfred Smith" Subject: Maybe you can helpl me find a book. Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 14:14:48 PDT Hi, my name is Alfred and I've been a Crimson/Fripp fan for some time now. I think that Fripp has been the number one influence in music the last three years of my life (saying much because I've only been playing for 5 years). The problem is my technique. I've heard and seen the book entitled - Robert Fripp: From King Crimson to Guitar Craft by Eric Tamm, but I know that it is our of print and there was only a limited number of copies. The question is how can I obtain a copy. I know that it would be a definitive source for my technique. I've read the Brian Eno book by Tamm and it is incredible. I was hoping maybe you had heard of the Fripp book or perhaps had a copy. I'll do almost anything to get a copy or copies of pages from the book. Could you help me? I'd appreciate it. Thank you, Fellow Fripptologist, Alfred L. Smith PS: Please respond to maidus at innocent dot com not to hotmail. I barely check the hotmail account. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:50:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Hampton LeGrand III Subject: Monty Python Howdy! Where in Exposure is a Monty Python bit sampled? Which is it? Please respond to robl at tamu dot edu, as I don't always have time to read all of ET. Thanks! _ _ Rob LeGrand III Texas A&M computer science | | | robl at tamu dot edu Zips 1998 progressive rock | | | cricket http://http.tamu.edu/~rhl0940/ Republican Party | | | ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 19:35:11 -0400 From: Baobab Computing Organization: Baobab Computing Subject: Fripp's writings: The definitive word Concerning the discussion about Fripp's writings and the online reproduction thereof.... A few weeks ago, after reading the voluminous correspondence between Fripp and ET, I decided to finally act on an idea I've had for years: design a web site solely devoted to Fripp's philosophy/ideas/rantings. I was motivated solely by the desire to disseminate original, lucid thinking, of which, I'm sure you'd all agree, there is a severe paucity in our age. Knowing Fripp's concerns with copyrighting, I contacted him and presented the idea. To my surprise, he hand-wrote a response which partially reads as follows: "This is not proper work for you. If it falls to anyone, it falls to me (the DGM website, for example). But there are other issues involved in this which needn't concern you. What does concern you is what is the proper forms for Tim's energies?" I will respect his desires and I think we all should. Tim DiChiara Baobab Computing http://baobabcomputing.com/ ------------------------------ From: "Rob and Diane" Subject: the Trower/Fripp Connection Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:33:12 -0400 Some Eter of the recent past inquired about where the Fripp/Trower connection began and I may have the answer....On 1 May, 1974 at the Felt Forum in New York City, King Crimson headlined a show that was opened by Robin Trower shortly after the release of "Bridge of Sighs"...Robin was billed as "the new Hendrix" and although he did achieve some of Jimi's sound, he certainly did not have his soul or passion. I became bored with Robins set quite quickly...Did they make friends that evening I wonder? It was quite by chance that I did see Crimson that evening as when I went to purchase tickets it was originally for Johnny Winter at Madison Square Garden. When I saw Crimson tkts on sale I decided to purchase them and of course changed the course of my musical tastes...As I watched in utter amazement, rack after rack of Brufords percussives were rolled onto stage joined by one Black and one White Mellotron. I did not know what to expect...As the band came onstage I was struck by thier relatively conservative look measured by the rockers of the day..It was quite clear to me as they blazed into Great Deceiver that Crimson were somthing special...Bill couldnt seem to stay seated as he hit every percussive on his rack and Fripps sound was so unique, so awe inspiring, as to leave me completely blown away...Tingles? ahh the thought.. Fripp after a few tunes adressed the audience about some groupies wanting to "make a plaster casting of my genital member" and then "took a plunge into the cosmos with Starless and Bible Black". Although I have seen Crimson on numerous occasions since, this concert always stuck out, probably clouded by my bias of seeing them for the first time that night...Exactly one month later I saw thatlineups final show at Central Park and again I was amazed...Especially when all the Crimso Freaks started to throw rocks and bottles at the opening act (GoldenEarring of Radar Love infamy) prompting Robert to come out and ask for order from the Vampiric crowd....Awaiting the NightWatch, i remain; Yours Sincerely DianeNYC Kestra at dot erols dot com Kestra at dot erols dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:14:25 -0400 (EDT) From: EkimDwod at aol dot com Subject: Adrian bumheads Over the past 2-3 months of reading ET I seem to be picking up some bad feelings towards Mr Belew. It seems the some think that KC could do without him. Possible???? Yes, but to me crimson have always been not just great instrumentally but the vocals have been to say the least the best and most unique weather it was Lake Wetton or Belew with Adrian being as good and unique as the others. Losing him would truely be a "bummer", He adds too much to the mix. After seeing him perform in Asbury Park (Paramount) I can't believe anyone could be disapointed. If nothing else(and there is a lot) he adds the element of fun and excitement to the band. I've seen very few that have as much fun as Adrian performing and this brings out the best in everyone in the building fans and band alike. Mike Dowd EkimDwod at aol dot com ------------------------------ Subject: SABB tracks from "Nightwatch" concert Date: Wed, 8 Oct 97 22:39:29 -0000 From: Liisa McCloy-Kelley I'm very much looking forward to the U.S. release of "Nightwatch", as this particular line-up of KC is certainly one of my favorites. One thing that I'm not clear on is which tracks from SABB are from the "Nightwatch" 11/23/73 concert? I understand that SABB's "The Great Deceiver" and "Lament" are both studio tracks, and that "Fracture" and "Trio" are both from the 11/23/73 performance, but I am unclear as to the orgin of the others. Also, will "Nightwatch" be available in stores, or can it only be obtained via mail-order from DGM? I've seen many copies of "Epitaph" in stores in NYC. Tom Kelley dataplanet at earthlink dot net ------------------------------ From: David MacLennan Subject: New '95 live KC? Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:21:56 +1200 Just been checking out the Adrian Belew website, and a posting from AB himself says that mixing has just been completed on a 2-CD KC live album from the '95 tour. Don't recall this being mentioned in official DGM despatches! No release date was given. Also mentioned was the 80s KC live set, also in the mixing stages, and a AB box set featuring some unreleased 80s KC stuff (an outtake from "Beat", a rehearsal tape, and one other). Start saving your pennies, fellow Crimheads! David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:19:56 -0500 (CDT) From: DAMON CAPEHART Subject: Re: Thrak Attacks Class! Dr. O Billard (?) wrote: >In all, judging from the class discussion that ensued after "Thrak" and >now examining students' written responses, I'd say it was a useful >exercise. It exposed the students to an unfamiliar stimulus and >required them to describe it in writing. KC worked well. That is simply awesome, prof. A suggestion if you plan on doing such an exercise a second time: Use "Sheltering Sky" as another instrumental and see the variety of responses and contrast them to the "Thrak" bunch. See if you're surprised by any consistencies between the two antipodal songs. [or, for that matter, choose a song by a band other than KC; we won't mind too much... :-) ] Damon Capehart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:18:17 +0300 From: Adam Klin Subject: Re: Lizard's tongue Ho. At 08:47 8/13/97 GMT, you wrote: Sorry about the long delay. >> They give you a few seconds in the beginning of 'Cirkus', so you can >> believe yourself safe, and then -- POW! The Sax comes in with full force. >It's not a sax - it's a Mellotron on 'brass' setting. Eeek! I was citing from memory, and not listening to the album, while writing. I hope I didn't make any more mistakes. > I mostly agree with your comments about the album, though. The main thing >I dislike >about it are (a) its jazzier leanings on side one and (b) Haskell's >vocals. On the other hand, side two is a masterpiece! I don't think Haskell is a good vocalist, but I DO think that he suits the bizzare atmosphere of the album. In some inexplicable way, he gets it right. Be Seeing You, Adam Klin adam at forum2 dot org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:57:54 +0200 From: Paul M Davies Organization: SunSoft ICNC Subject: Last Words on USA from the Horse's Mouth I spoke to David Singleton about USA at the "Nightwatch" playback. This is what he told me: * All of USA, except Schizoid Man, was recorded at Asbury Park. * Schizoid Man on USA was recorded at Providence. * The "Nightwatch" replaces the planned DGM release "USA II". * Virgin intends to reissue USA on CD. It will include the tracks from Asbury Park on the original issue of USA, plus the version of Schizoid Man from Asbury Park as featured on the Schizoid Man EP, plus some other material, I presume from the same concert. DS should know, as he is remixing it for them. Toby, Daniel, in the interests of conserving bandwidth, perhaps you should put this in the FAQ: Q: Where was USA recorded. A: Asbury Park, except for Schizoid Man, which was recorded at Providence. BTW, Orn from Iceland, I didn't ask who was the woman that broke wind halfway through Schizoid Man. Have you considered the possibility it was the TWA stewardess that JW pulled earlier in the tour? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 04:19:01 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: Fripp, eccentric? Aplologies if this is a duplicate post. I'm having difficulty with my email service. Christopher Jepson wrote: > Just what do KC fans really think of Fripp's "eccentric" views? As I > indicated, I like the fact that Fripp is eccentric; if he were not, he > wouldn't be Fripp (or at least not "that" Fripp), and almost certainly > would not be capable of that music. I feel that I enjoy his music more > because of what I know about his views. But I would assume that > hard-headed, both-feet-on-the-ground realists would be rather embarrassed > by his oddities. You asked for it. Jumping in hip deep, I'll say that I don't consider Fripp to be eccentric. At least not in any way which would be contradictory to the logic and aesthetics of an intelligent realist. It seems to me that when Fripp's views or decisions seem odd or eccentric it is because of some expectation (or desire) that he might do something else. I am continually amazed that people are surprised that Fripp is not lit onstage and rarely rises from his stool. This is so very much in keeping with his established (and IMHO, very pragmatic) views on the relationships between a.) performer and audience, and b.) music and musician. I also think that Fripp's refusal to compromise in so many ways is often interpreted as eccentricity. It seems, however, quite logical to me for one to know in advance how far one may venture and what concessions one is or is not willing to make and to then stand firmly by these guidlines in the face of whatever unpredictable circumstances may follow. As Fripp continually suggests, it is in contrast with contemporary standards for one's ethics to be fixed rather than situational. I think it is interesting that Fripp seems to fall into the 'eccentric artist' category as a result of decisions he makes which are quite practical and realistic. The Guitar Craft tuning is not quirky, it is the result of questioning the logic of tradition and finding there isn't any. Brian Eno IS a quirky 'eccentric artist' type, and we love him for it. I present Eno as a true and real example of an 'eccentric artist' or dilletante. And in sharp contrast with that, I present Fripp as the loyal and dedicated servant to music, following the path down which music leads him, in spite of where he might actually want to go. If you are a realist who has dedicated his/her life to selling insurance from 9 to 5 (no disrespect intended), then Fripp is certainly eccentric. If you are a realist who is a servant to music, these steps make perfect sense. You discuss Fripp's beliefs being so far removed from the mainstream. I contend that this is a matter of perspective and expectations. If you are a rock music fan who liked Yes and found Crimson down that path, Fripp might seem off center a bit. However, if you came from the perspective of say a student of Eastern Thought, I Ching, and the music of John Cage, Fripp seems very sensible and perhaps a bit traditional in some ways. I would hardly call Eastern Thought 'new age' and I can't seem to get my new age friend, who is Jim Redfield's publicist, to sit through an entire Cage piece. Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham Alabama ------------------------------ From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: Dancing with Mr. D. Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 06:20:51 PDT Dear ET, Just a note on David Kirkdoffer's post in ET #425. From what I understand, the Rolling Stones' "Dancing with Mr. D." was written about David Bowie, not the Dr. Diamond of KC fame. I also seem to recall that another Stones song from the same period , "Angie," was written for Angie Bowie, David's then-wife. Weren't both songs on the "Goat's Head Soup" album? Regards, Doug Robillard ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: ganderso at notes dot cc dot bellcore dot com Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:18:22 -0400 Subject: Wayne Shorter Forgive me, not real KC content. But I saw sax god Wayne Shorter play with Herbie Hancock last night. I was absolutely stunned by Wayne's playing. I mention it here, because like fripp his style of playing is more or less un-imitatable, a deep, unique emanation from the artist's personality. Also like fripp (but much more so) the playing was abstract and Bartok-like, coming in ever-so-slightly above me head, so that my listening was forced to rise up a notch to hear it. So I am somehow pretty sure that anyone who loves Fripp's haunting, challenging sound would love Wayne Shorter, so go see him (if this is part of a tour, and i think it is). Dr P? Any comments? Did Wayne Shorter inherit the mantle passed down from Trane and Bird or WHAT?!! -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 09:38:42 -0500 From: "Chris 'Coz' Costello" Subject: Bass solos and contacting Bruford A couple of notes from ET #425 > From: louis courteau > and Joe Satriani in the raw, > just a trio, but what a trio, including a bass solo such as you have > never heard before or you wouldn't be talking of wasting 75% of your > ticket budget. That would be the lovely, the talented, Mr. Stu Hamm. Over time, however, I actually *have* heard better bass solos, particularly Victor Wooten (Bela Fleck & the Flecktones), Oteil Burbridge (Col. Bruce Hampton & the Aquarium Rescue Unit), and Victor Bailey (Steps Ahead). Stu's is still pretty damn good, far and away the high point of both of the Satriani shows that I've seen. The solo, ostensibly titled "Quahogs Anyone? (220, 221, Whatever it takes)" is on one of Stu's solo albums, _The Urge_, on Relativity. Also features Steve Smith on drums and Eric Johnson on guitar on a few tracks. There's also a version of the country thing on _Radio Free Albemuth_. > From: Patrick West/Red Shift > Does anyone know > where I could email Bill directly, thats probably a dumb question but > I'll take the chance. Well, you can always try to go through the "Ask a Pro" column in Modern Drummer magazine. From the looks of their website, , the person to e-mail for that column is Rick Van Horn at rvh at moderndrummer dot com Ask a Pro is pretty effective. I've gotten a postcard from Neil Peart, a letter from Rod Morgenstein, and had a letter to Dave Weckl printed in the magazine. I think there was only one other letter to NP that didn't get answered. Later, COZ -- +-- | Chris 'Coz' Costello / "Hipness is transient. You have to | http://www.tezcat.com/~coz / change in order to be continually | coz at tezcat dot com / hip." - Vinnie Colaiuta | ---+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:46:23 +0800 From: David Dudgeon Subject: USA, Projeckt One Loire Campos wrote in ET#425 that the wonderful guitar solo on Easy Money on USA does not appear on Great Deceiver. I reckon he's right. Whether this justifies rereleasing USA (given the fact that the 1974 band is well-served by live releases) I do not know, but it is a nice piece of playing and one of my favourite Fripp solos. (Presumably, Loire, it ends in the middle for a good reason: tape glitch, descent into mundanity, mistake, etc.). Gant Colburn (again, ET#425) rued the lack of new, written KC stuff, and felt that Projectk One would slow the process of producing such material. Improv is one thing, composition another. If anything, the former will speed or enhance the latter. The opposite seems unlikely. The _real_ reason for this post (although I think Loire is right to draw attention to the USA EM solo) is to offer kudos to Toby the moderator. Long may he continue. David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 08:25:08 -0700 From: " frivolous" Subject: Re: M. C. Crimson ? / Neuromancer Movie Organization: MailExcite (http://www.mailexcite.com) "Gustavo Enriquez" wrote: "I have a cover tecno-dance version from Crimson's "I talk to the wind " . It's very interesting. The band includes a female vocalist, but I ignore the name of this band. Does any ETer know it ?" I remember this - the band is Opus III, who had a little bald-headed chit of a girl on vocals, over sorta ambient Techno stuff. Wasn't terribly impressed at the time, I recall... Re. Neuromancer: If: a) Mr. Fripp was supposed to act in a remake of Metropolis in the late 70s (according to an article on ET Web), and b) Mr. Fripp started work on a soundtrack for William Gibson's Neuromancer in the mid 80s (according to the KC 95 tour programme), then c) don't you wish someone would resurrect the Neuromancer project? Not only could KC do the music (Cage on steroids?), but at least two KC members could have starring roles: - Mr Fripp as Julius Deane, a dapper Victorian-style gentleman, whose appearance is later "borrowed" by Wintermute (the AI) and gets his/its head blown off, and, - Mr Levin as the Finn, whose head looks as though it was designed in a wind tunnel? (I don't know if that's a complement or not - I hope so!) I must say that King Crimson and related music has always struck me as "cinematic". I'm even the wally/prat/dipstick/asshole who asked Mr. Fripp about soundtracks at the Gates of Paradise playback ("Does Hollywood ever call you?") Ah well... yours in frivolity, --- frivolous at mailexcite dot com London, UK http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/3242/ See the XLChords project - MS Excel does chords? Free web-based email, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 12:05:36 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Trivia Responses to queries in ET # 425: 1. Du Bois asked about the translation of "Los Gauchos Alemanes". I believe "Alemanes" means "Germans." 2. David Kirkdorffer asked about a Rolling Stones song possibly connected to "Doctor Diamond" -- the song in question is "Dancing with Mr. D." and is supposedly about David Bowie. My apologies if this is a repetition of data provided by others too numerous to mention. -- Chris Jepson ------------------------------ From: john_doherty_at_wmc__cp%wmcmail dot wmc dot ac dot uk at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 17:41:16 GMT Subject: HERE COMES THE FLOOD HERE COMES THE FLOOD Fellow ETers, For those wondering what Here Comes the Flood is about, lets ask PG himself: "When I wrote the song I had an obsession with short-wave radio signals and I was always amazed at the way in which radio signals would become stronger as daylight faded. I felt as if psychic energy levels would also increase in the night. I had had an apocalyptic dream in which the psychic barriers which normally prevent us from seeing into each other's thoughts had been completely eroded, producing a mental flood. Those that had been used to having their innermost thoughts exposed would handle this torrent and those inclined towards concealment would drown in it. I also remember the night on which it was written. It was a warm summer evening and I was on the hillside above my cottage. With my eyes closed I used to run for a hundred paces and see where I found myself, and look for plants and animals of significance. I felt as if I had found an energy point on the hillside and after a burst of meditation stormed down the hillside to write. In the case of 'Flood' it felt as if the song was writing me rather than me writing it. I had this vision of telepathic advance in the sense that people do have the ability to pick up what other people are thinking and feeling, much more than is acknowledged. If it is developed at one point within the species, which is how I pictured it, then those people who are used to straightforward and expressing what they were thinking and feeling would be much better to handle it than those people used to secrecy. This might sound too far-fetched, but I've seen it as Armageddon images. And this seemed to me to be something that might happen, whether it be the result of radiation or whatever." [Spencer Bright, An Authorised Biography, Sidgwick & Jackson, 1988] The song belongs to a greater work. Gabriel conceived an apocalyptic character called Mozo, who was partly based on Moses. A fictional character that came from nowhere, disrupting and changing people's lives and causing changes and then disappearing. Mozo was a catalyst for spiritual change. Gabriel wanted to scatter songs about Mozo over several albums, though they would make a complete story when put together. The proper listening order for Mozo's tale should be: On the Air 'Mozo and his fantasy world' [PG II, 1978] Down the Dolce Vita 'a ship leaving harbour on an [PG I, 1977] intrepid journey' Here Comes the Flood 'an apocalyptic vision' [PG I, 1977] Exposure 'the struggle for salvation' [PG II, 1978] Red Rain 'denying one's feelings' [So, 1986] That Voice Again 'judgement' [So, 1986] I guess when Fripp decided to re-recorded 'Flood' for his Exposure album, he used the Bennett piece [Water Music I] as an introduction because it matched the lyrics well, not because there was any hidden meaning to the song. Remember not everything an artists does has to have a deeper, hidden meaning, occasionally they will do something just because it looks or sounds right! I think this was the case with the Fripp's version of 'Flood'. Also, remember, the lyrics were written by Gabriel, any meaning, is his. On the issue of moderation, Toby, I'll trust your judgement over that of the horde any day. Regards all John Doherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:56:00 -0500 (CDT) From: David Cline Subject: Frippertronics for Patrick In reply to Patrick, Rshift at aol dot com First of all, which era of Frippertronics do you mean? (Regulars please excuse this hoary information) Early era (No Pussyfooting / Exposure) was done with two Revox A77 or Studer open reel tape decks. A how-to diagram can be found in the liner notes to Brian Eno's album Discreet Music. Middle period (early-mid 80s) Fripp used an Electro-Harmonix 16 second digital delay. EH marketed this device in their advertising copy as "Fripp-in-a-Box". They are now out of production and incredibly difficult to find in good working order. Bill Frissel and Vernon Reid use/have used the EH16 as well. Currently, Fripp's set up includes 2 t.c. electronics TC2290 delays among other toys. A complete equipment run down (as of 1995) can be found in the liner notes of Fripp's album 1999 - Soundscapes - Live in Argentina. I have experimented with loops/midi/delays/tapes/ etc. for a long while. To inexpensively copy the early era Fripp/Frippertronics stuff I would suggest the following: Guitar---->pre-amp---->volume pedal---->Zoom 508 delay pedal on factory setting F1---->amp F1 setting is 4 seconds of delay with infinite repeat. An A/B box inserted between the volume pedal and the delay will allow you to route the guitar signal to another amp for soloing over the loop. The four second loop will continue to repeat and slowly degrade over the next few minutes allowing plenty of solo space. I think this is a very cool set up, easy to carry, and easy to learn to use. However, you cannot store the loops. The pre-amp could be replaced with a fuzz/distortion/overdrive to get a more singing sustain. Don't omit this step - guitar alone will sound wimpy. Shop around, if you are a guitar player and have all the other equipment you can find the Zoom for around $100. U.S. Hope this helps. By the way, if anyone on the list lives in the Moorhead/Fargo area and is interested in doing soundscapes or ambient music I would like to hear from you. Sort of like looking for Eno to my (pale impression of) Fripp. Excelsior, Dr. David Cline Asst. Professor, Education Moorhead State University Moorhead, Minnesota 56560 ------------------------------ From: JRHARTLEY1 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:04:15 EDT Subject: USA & Dots and Loops. Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) >From JRHARTLETY1 at aol dot com 9th October 1997 Hello. Having just read through ET 424, I would like to support David Maclennan's recomendation of Stereolabs latest album 'Dots and Loops'. Very exciting, no dud tracks and available on Green and White doulble LP. What More could you want? Some time ago, I remember a lot of people ranting on about USA being re- released. 'What, more live stuff from that period?' I thought. Well, having aquired a copy from Sevenoakes, I now realise why so many people talk about it. Asbury Park is a definate highlight but it is such a shame that Easy Money is cut short. I would love to see this re-released at some stage and if people are sick of re-releases, then they are not forced to buy it. Simon of the South. ------------------------------ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: NY Times Bootlegging Article Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 16:33:00 -0400 The following article offers an interesting factual and editorial perspective on the bootlegging issue. The article is reprinted without permission from the New York Times, October 9, 1997. Although it is long, I hope Toby includes the article because it contains some worthwhile arguments. [ No, sorry, I won't include it. Presumably it is copyright material. In that context, quotations are OK, but not whole articles. Especially when the topic is bootlegging :-) Seriously, if it is available on the Web, perhaps Michael could tell us the location. -- Toby ] My personal view is that the artistic "freedom of control" principle should rule the day. Obviously, we and the artists may derive utilitarian benefits from bootlegging. In fact, Fripp's use of boots as source recordings for recent releases is an implicit acknowledgment of some value in their existence. I still believe, however, that the underlying principle giving artists control over their output outweighs the alleged benefits. For similar principled reasons, I don't support eugenics. ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 17:39:04 -0400 Subject: Gong You Remix CD DM>> What with this and the new Stereolab album "Dots and Loops" (absolutely DM>> wonderful, BTW), the Gong "You" remix, and the new Robert Wyatt, it's been DM>> a helluva good week for music at my place! I have to second David's recommendation of the Remixed "Gong - YOU" disc. It's a two cd set remix of the classic Gong album called YOU. It features mixes by The Orb, 808 State, The Shamen, and Steve Hillage and Miquet Giradi's (Gong Alumni) band System 7(a.k.a 777). It was also priced quite nice at $14.99. Les B. Labbauf "It's always better to regret something you have done then to regret something you haven't done!" - Anonymous "There may be a legal obligation to obey, but there will be no moral obligation to obey. When it comes to history it will be the people that break the law for freedom who will be remembered and honored." Tony Benn, Labour MP "Beautiful!...magnificent desolation!" Buzz Aldrin "Something Unknown Is Doing Something We Don't Know What." Sir Arthur Eddington "What Me Worry?" Alfred E. Newman ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Thu, 09 Oct 97 17:59:37 -0400 Subject: Eric Tamm's Book On Fripp/Guitar Craft DW>> Hello! My name is Douglas Wright. I just read somewhere that there is a DW>> book entitled "Robert Fripp - From King Crimson to Guitar Craft". Does DW>> anyone know who the author and/or publishers are? Is there an easy way to DW>> get a hold of this book? Doug; I work at a library and although we don't carry this book, our Inter-Library-Loan department was able to find a copy for me to read. I suggest you check out your local library first. The author's name is Eric Tamm. Les B. Labbauf "It's always better to regret something you have done then to regret something you haven't done!" - Anonymous "There may be a legal obligation to obey, but there will be no moral obligation to obey. When it comes to history it will be the people that break the law for freedom who will be remembered and honored." Tony Benn, Labour MP "Beautiful!...magnificent desolation!" Buzz Aldrin "Something Unknown Is Doing Something We Don't Know What." Sir Arthur Eddington "What Me Worry?" Alfred E. Newman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 01:28:57 +0200 From: AA Subject: Fripp Video Hi, Do you know where I can find a copy of this 91' video of Robert Fripp teaching (propably) the Guitar Craft? If you think that this is impossible,do you know any person who has it so I can buy (maybe) a copy? Sincerely, A.A. emel at hol dot gr ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 16:26:34 -0600 From: "Steven W. Sthole" Subject: Re: Another G3 review In today's Denver Post, this article appeared. The author is alleged rock critic G. Brown. 'Guitar Lovers, don't fret: G3 is here' (excerpt): '...experimental guitarist and King Crimson leader Robert Fripp was onstage when the doors opened, playing as folks filtered into the gig. He created an audio tapestry, layering sound upon sound --- by the end of his set, his futuristic tones were resonating and oscillating like a spaceship at 120 decibels. The crowd was more anoyed then impressed...' Gee, Brown. -- ************************************************************** * (peace) * Steven W. Sthole, mailto:sws1 at eazy dot net * the Greatest Band In The Universe and more at: http://www.eazy.net/sws1/band.html * the King Crimson java applet at: * http://www.eazy.net/sws1/java/javab1.htm ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Subject: Whining about the Artist Shop Date: Thu, 9 Oct 97 16:43:54 -0700 From: Bruce Selzler Elephant Talk from et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk said on 10/9/97 12:24 AM: >I'm no fan of the Artist Shop postings in ET (since I also seem to have been >added to their mailing list -- reading one is enough), but I am a fan of Ken >Nordine. However, somewhat in Mr. Davis's defense, he used to close his >letter by saying "As my friend Ken Nordine said . . . how are things in your >town?" (I say "somewhat" in his defense only because every time I read that I >wondered if Mr. Nordine really was Mr. Davis' friend, or if he was simply >name dropping.) Having been on the net for a number of years, I've come to accept the fact that many of our "brothers and sisters in communication" are tolerant of communicating ideas only if they agree with their own. It seems to come with the territory. And since I've worked with Gary on a couple of online projects I originally decided to stay above the fray on this topic. However I just have to wonder if you people that are so willing to complain about an Artist shop notice are actually thinking about what your are saying. If you wish to hear good art, you must support it. No ifs, ands, ors, buts, or whining. Gary provides you, and in a very classy way I might add, with a method of supporting a number of artists. Quality artists. The kind of artists we can all listen to and still be able to look at ourselves in the mirror afterwards. The kind of artists we'd all like to hear more work from. The kind of artists who's work just might disappear if it wasn't for Gary and others like him. I've never seen Gary spam the list. I've never seen him be rude or insulting. I've never seen him do anything but provide quality information on quality music. Frankly I don't see what the problem is. It seems to me, his posts are more informative and interesting than a good part of the idle banter that goes on here. Now, of course, there is going to be a flood of "I know you are, but what am I" mail to the list but please save us all the trouble. Toby is editing the list. If its in there, its supposed to be. Real simple. The next time something comes on your screen that triggers that "whine" response just hit the page down button. If you can't find it, click on the little down arrow in the lower right hand corner of the window until the next message in the "Why Doesn't Anyone Like Islands" thread is displayed. Or just do nothing and hang up. Whatever you choose quit whining about a nice guy, doing a good job, for all the right reasons. Its stupid. - Sez **************** Visit @Music on Talk City +===+ o +===+ THE ROAD | | /|\ | | http://www.talkcity.com/atmusic/ GOES ON |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| FOREVER.... |___| / \ |___| IRC: chat.talkcity.com **************** ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #427 ********************************