Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #424 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 424 Tuesday, 7 October 1997 Today's Topics: Tech.CDs'.Night Watch CDs'.Early KC Concerts Remasters - A correction Fripp articles at ET Web A Basile P.S.[RF interviews] Boasts & Tix Re: Robert Fripp articles at ET Web The Night Watch Still don't care what KC and DGM think of my collage. truth or dare Bruford and Levin Bruford/Mastelotto Short/Tall It's All A Matter Of Perspective G3/Fripp in Seattle - review Re: Namedropping (minor tritone content) ...random notes... Bill Bruford's kit. Re: flood Brazil coincidence Trower's Friend Fripp Here Comes the Flood, Or is it? re: Here Comes the Flood "Here comes the flood" Re: Elephant Talk Digest #423 Fripp at G3 Re: Here Comes the Flood Fripp and The Orb KC Live in 70's M. C. Crimson ? Ownership of art ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator, the evil man with the power to mingle, mangle and mungle) Subject: ET delays Hi chums. Sorry for the delay between this edition and the previous edition. Jane and I just moved house, and it's been a bit chaotic. Monty the dog (http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/monty) has chewed up vital documents, made unusual smells and generally poked his cold black nose into unhelpful places, including lubricating my modem phone line. But ET is back online, and a resumption of our usual level of efficiency is imminent. We have lots of posts stockpiled, so the next few ETs will follow quickly. Cheers, as we say in Manchester. Toby -------- Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:38:56 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Tech.CDs'.Night Watch CDs'.Early KC Concerts HI,HO. Personally I would like the option of buying technologically advanced cd of RF/KC. Still having some vinal pressings, the option of buying the best is what I want as at the time I can afford it.Being a poor school teacher I have RED and LTIA on the first CD pressings of these EG disks.Couldn't afford to by the enhanced ones. Having bought LIZARDs in August I like the option of buying the best sound avalible.This pay I will buy IWOTP and I wish I had the up graded catalogue now, since I don't I'll go with the Definitive E ditions. Now when RED and LTIA came out as Half speed masters on vinal I up graded, and there is no doubt in my mind there was a significant difference. When the kids graduate from school I may or may not buy the up graded catalogue, but for now buying one piece at a time, I want the best possible sound! So I for one hope they upgrade. We deserve the best. Called DMG USA, we can preorder Night Watch starting October14.It is due out in the USA in November.{ Similar to last years Video that came out even earlier than quoted.} Art Andrews post of seeing Kc in the 1970s reminded me of a story Chico told me the first time he saw KC.At the Penn State show in the early 70's he claims that he worked his way to the front during the opening act. Having a front row peak he became confused to hear music coming from the back.The whole audience turned to see KC on a hidden back stage. So those in front where now in back and vice versa.Now is this true or did Chico eat some bad stuff?He was the type to never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.But I love him for getting me in to KC. Chico was there when I saw my first KC show,Akron 1991! The guy next to me said he didn't like the new KC because RF doesn't solo anymore. I asked him what he was talking about?!~ During the show I gave him my binoculars on all of RF solo's. During the SHELTERING SKY he had tears in his eyes as did I.Afterwards he thanked me and bought me a tee shirt that I have to this day....Talk about Tingles.... Oh, my brother in law claims that RF dated Christine Perfect[McVie], is this true? {Ok, ya, I am starting to like FWM.} Warmly, Joe Basile Chippewa, PA ------------------------------ From: sparker at iphase dot com (Steve Parker) Subject: Remasters - A correction Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:26:55 -0500 (CDT) In my last post, titled 'Remasters', under the sub-header "Bad start-up notes", I complained about the mellotron note that begins the 3rd movement of "Devil's Triangle". While listening to ITWOP this weekend, I discovered that it's really the second movement, "Hand Of Sceiron", that contains the mastering error. It occurs at 3:51 in the track. Interestingly, I received mail from fellow ET-er Mike Tanigawa this morning, indicating that the "bent" note adds even more terror to the track for him. When I thought about it, I realized it gives something of a lurching effect, like something evil springing from the shadows. Thanks for the new perspective, Mike. Steve ------------------------------ From: "Daniel Kirkdorffer" Organization: SRDS Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:14:27 CST Subject: Fripp articles at ET Web In ET# 423 Tiz Hay wrote: <> Tiz, as usual I have not made myself clear (an affliction I'm always trying to overcome). DGM has asked that I remove articles that ETers can find in the "Articles" section of ET Web, specifically those copyrighted Robert Fripp. Although technically posts by Fripp to ET are copyrighted to the author (I assume), I have not understood DGM's request to mean those. Besides I do not see how we could remove these postings anyway. So simply put, RF would like to house his articles/writings at the DGM site. Robert did not object to their presence at ET Web while he did not have a site of his own, and we are grateful for that. We've had a good relationship with DGM up until now, housing their UK online ordering form for them, and I suspect that relationship will remain close in the future. As far as I'm concerned, I expect that Robert's desire to house his writings at the DGM site will mean that ETers and others will have greater access to more of his pearls of wisdom than before. I hope that removes any concerns. Dan ET Web DanKirkd at aol dot com --- Daniel Kirkdorffer Sr. Technical Consultant, Zeal Inc. dank at zealinc dot com http://www.zealinc.com/ DanKirkd at aol dot com http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/ **Visual Cafe Tips: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/vcafe.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:20:02 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: A Basile P.S.[RF interviews] HI, forgot to mention the informative John McGaughlin interview on the ET web sight.Robert conducts the interview and you learn much about both.Both have the same favorite drummer, the late Tony Williams ect. Also Toby's article or review of a Guitar Craft Workshop is very insightful, and almost professional, all of it is professional except his pay. [ Hey thanks Joe. ETers, please just send those $10 bills to the usual address. -- Toby ] I must say the playback articles are very wonderful for die hard fans. Keep Up The Great Work All ETERS.' Joe ------------------------------ From: Mark Jakusovszky Subject: Boasts & Tix Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:34:24 -0600 Hi all! Just wanted to let everyone know that The Quest has transmogrified, but is still in full force. After successfully locating a copy of Damage roughly halfway around the globe, I spotted (and purchased) a second copy right in my back yard. I would be willing to part with it not for money, but for trade of a similarly compelling Fripp-related bauble (email me privately at markjx at aol dot com). I have also purchased a mint copy of YPG on LP (did this ever go CD?) complete with the B&W booklet, and am in the process of purchasing the Fripp-produced Sacred Songs LP by Daryl Hall. (Now if I only had a phono cartridge!) Neither of these are or will be on the market. Now if I could just figure out how to get to London say, around the first week in December................. Speaking of which; are there any COLORADO ET'ers with an extra G3 ticket? I knew about the tickets going on sale (Thanks Gail!), but thought I was going to be out of town for the show. Well the trip got delayed, so either a) I'll score a ticket from a fellow ET'er and be sittin' in the front row (or as close as I can get) at 5PM when the doors open, or b) I'll be standing outside looking pathetic and puppy-eyed begging for the key to admittance at nearly the same time or before. Again, email me at markjx at aol dot com. (Jeez, I should really change my subscription address....) BTW, I hope all you Crafties and NSTers have a great time in Seattle this weekend! Hope to see you next February, should his Frippness give me the nod..... Thrak On! Mark J. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:12:48 +0100 From: progressive dot spiral at writeme dot com Organization: "PROGRESS" magazine + PROGRESSIVE~SPIRAL website Subject: Re: Robert Fripp articles at ET Web http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/2757 Sent by : Progressive~Spiral website (Tiz Hay) With great relief, I've received news from ET Web's Daniel Kirkdorffer clarifying that the Robert Fripp writings to be gradually transplanted from ET to the new DGM site are in fact whole articles (separately housed) as opposed to entries in this superb forum! A whole new world opens up for this reader ~ having got into ET 'through the window' (not the main entrance) I now find there is even more to this website than previously explored! An even bigger Well Done, Toby, Dan & all! wrote: > > In ET# 423 Tiz Hay wrote: > > < ('Progress' is now a hybrid between fanzine & real magazine). So I > know the value, & hard toil, of providing a facility such as E-Talk > enabling fellow enthusiasts to exchange opinions within a forum of > free speech. I was sad reading ET web's Daniel Kirkdorffer revealing > that, sometime soon, all RF's responses in ET are to be deleted from > the archives. Perhaps George Orwell was prophetic with '1984' ~ > history is indeed being rewritten! > > < some craftily compiled future features gleaning content from Mr > Fripp's ET writings, I wonder why he purportedly feels it necessary > for them not to remain, also, in their original placement. > > < newcomers would never have given a listen to the music concerned, & I > would hazard a guess than some past fans have had their interest > rekindled by this magnificent forum! Hope our own humble website can > welcome some elephantine missives!>> > > Tiz, as usual I have not made myself clear (an affliction I'm always > trying to overcome). DGM has asked that I remove articles that > ETers can find in the "Articles" section of ET Web, specifically > those copyrighted Robert Fripp. Although technically posts by > Fripp to ET are copyrighted to the author (I assume), I have not > understood DGM's request to mean those. Besides I do not > see how we could remove these postings anyway. > > So simply put, RF would like to house his articles/writings at the > DGM site. Robert did not object to their presence at ET Web > while he did not have a site of his own, and we are grateful for > that. We've had a good relationship with DGM up until now, > housing their UK online ordering form for them, and I suspect > that relationship will remain close in the future. As far as I'm > concerned, I expect that Robert's desire to house his writings > at the DGM site will mean that ETers and others will have > greater access to more of his pearls of wisdom than before. > > I hope that removes any concerns. > > Dan > ET Web > DanKirkd at aol dot com > > --- > Daniel Kirkdorffer > Sr. Technical Consultant, Zeal Inc. > dank at zealinc dot com http://www.zealinc.com/ > DanKirkd at aol dot com http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/ > **Visual Cafe Tips: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/vcafe.htm -- Light, Love & Laughter, Tiz Hay WEBSITE http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/2757 E-MAIL progressive dot spiral at writeme dot com ------------------------------ From: David MacLennan Subject: The Night Watch Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:54:43 +1200 My copy of "The Night Watch" arrived yesterday from DGM-UK, and it is quite superb! This era of the band's live work has never sounded so good on record. The sound quality beats anything on "USA", "Frame By Frame" or "The Great Deceiver" -- and they were all good. This new album should be played LOUD. It's very interesting to hear the "Starless & Bible Black" cuts in their original form. There are definite diferences. Hard to say at this stage which is my favourite of the two discs (it's a double CD, in case you didn't know), but the second has a "new" improv ("The Fright Watch") which leads into a killer version of "Talking Drum", then of course "LTIA 2" and "Schizoid Man" for the closer. Talk about a relentless onslaught! Some might say, "Why do I need yet another '73-'74-era KC live disc when I've already got the others?" My answer is, wait till you hear it before you decide: you WILL want it! What with this and the new Stereolab album "Dots and Loops" (absolutely wonderful, BTW), the Gong "You" remix, and the new Robert Wyatt, it's been a helluva good week for music at my place! David Maclennan ------------------------------ From: "Z V" Subject: Still don't care what KC and DGM think of my collage. Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:46:21 PDT >In regards to "ZV" collage creation, and a proposed public posting thereof: >>> I do >>> not know what DGM and KC would think of such a construction. I really >>> don't particularly care, >*sigh*. And you wonder why they might get a wee bit defensive over the >subject... >I don't agree with all of Fripp's stated view on bootlegging, etc., but to >proclaim in a public forum that you "don't particularly care" what an artist >thinks about a major re-manipulation of their work is naive at best, and >colossally rude at worst. I know you're trying to position yourself in the >"rational of passionate fandom" camp, but at least pay some lip service, for >cryin' out loud. Here's why I do not care. First off no one is bootlegging by creating this, as you imply. I'm offering it for free once I get finished with it. You don't owe me a penny. If someone takes it off the web and makes a CD they've stolen from me just as much as they've stolen from KC. I'm not inclined to play the music biz game with anything that I create musically, even on the independent level, so if someone else thinks they can get a buck out of it and not get caught I'll let KC go after them. Also, KC bootleggers are overly reverential to them, while I'm merrily taking the piss out of them, and they happily take the piss out of themselves from time to time. Secondly, I'm creating my vision of what King Crimson sounds like to me in those moments when I don't have the CDs and a CD player nearby but I'm thinking of their music. It is what I hear in my head from memory. Snippets of music that they have played twist themselves around in wonderful ways in my head and I want to share them. They played it, but they have nothing to do with the way my brain structures it or distorts it. In short, there's possibly artistic value in what I do with their work. Does Robert Fripp care what someone might think of the Monty Python bit embedded in Exposure? Did he bootleg Monty Python by including it? If he did, why the double standard? This is a large part of why I do not care what they think, because if Mr. Fripp raised an objection that I created it, I could squarely say to him that he'd done the same thing himself to the people who own the Monty Python television shows. Thirdly, why should I pay lip service to people that I don't particularly know? They're not gods. (Here's a hint: Mr. Fripp discharges clams and prunes occasionally.) They're human beings just like you, and they put something into action just like you can if you try hard enough. If someone did that to my music, I'd be incredibly interested to know what it sounded like, but I wouldn't expect them to care what I think of what they did. Were I to meet them I'd be cordial, but unless we found some sort of passion apart from what they do for a living I wouldn't feel particularly different or better for meeting them. In fact I live close enough to NYC to have attended the Epitaph gathering and to have met them, and had the day off as well, but I chose not to go because I couldn't think of what I would say to them, and to have them scribble their names on a piece of paper for me seems to be silliness. I don't think it's particularly naove, and I don't think it's particularly rude. Rudeness would be if I told them they sucked and that I make something better (i.e. what people were doing to Adrian Belew that prompted me to create this.) In fact by telling all of you that I'm doing it I am inviting them as well as you to hear it, but I would create it whatever they thought of it. And no I'm not particularly passionate about King Crimson. I don't know how all the songs go. Don't know all of the titles. Don't know the solos. I like them enough to have quite a few of their albums, but I don't freak and run to the record store the minute a new one comes out. Usually buy their albums, play them five or six times, and they go onto the shelf until the next time I feel like hearing them. Haven't even gotten around to purchasing Thrakattack yet. I might, and I might not. Time will tell. Quite possibly Thrakattack is KC's version of what I'm proposing. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "dumela" Subject: truth or dare Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:23:41 -0400 The thread as a person in the form of one known to us and himself as Eb should be seriously considered for curtailment. There I typed it. Tastes great, unlike the big ol luggy in the back of my sweaty throat just waiting to be hurled upon his non-frippian foot cover. I am the one who asked about Fripp's shoes but eventually noticed my rapidly puddled laces and gave up. (alt.shoestring.freak has helped) From my own beginnings on this list back more than four years now I've yet to observe groupthink as I understand it. Does listening to KC foretell a lack of original thought? Methinks not if we shove this particular listening habit against others. Do lists unto themselves, such as this one, suck us into herds? Much closer. We all have at least some likeness to one another. Is ET a part of your life? If yes I like you (if I may.) If reading what doesn't interest you here is painful then sticking to the et www seems like an option. Find what you need, when you need it and poof you're gone. I'm currently negotiating for a Vancouver g3 Fripp opener gig review to make up for this unaligned missive. My literary bank approval notice, the reviewer is a librarian, forstalls the moment to lick bliss. with red luv, tj {If your phone rang and it was Toby saying he was in town and he wondered if you would like to have lunch would you be willing to buy? I would.} ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:34:13 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Bruford and Levin During the 11 year gap between Crimson we all had to find our Crimso thrills in other places, and I'm sure a lot of others like myself greatly enjoyed Tony Levin's presence touring with Anderson, Bruford, Wakeman, Howe, the highlight being Tony's great back and forth with Bruford. Well, just had a stop by Tony's site and he lists an upcoming project with Bruford for next year - about time! Album name (I believe) will be "Bruford Levin Upper Extremeties". Yet something else to look forward to :^) Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:23:09 -0400 From: Richard Begley Subject: Bruford/Mastelotto Tomas Howie posted the information from the Modern Drummer article on the actual equipment being used by Bruford and Mastelotto - I transcribed the rest of the article and both interviews some time ago - I think they're still on the interview page of ET. Tomas is right - some really interesting stuff in there. ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 19:37:43 -0400 Subject: Short/Tall It's All A Matter Of Perspective At 5'8" Terry Murphy complained about being two short: TM>> digressing. Im 5'8....and easily the shortest man in the crowds at both TM>> events( Mr Fripp the lone exception!). Are you all a tall lot? I TM>> guess I'll TM>> get the platforms next time Tony Levin comes around. Anyway, love reading Dude; At 5'0 you easily tower over us lowly Crimson fans here in Harrisburg, PA. Skip the platforms, you just block the view for us short ones :) Les B. Labbauf "It's always better to regret something you have done then to regret something you haven't done!" - Anonymous ------------------------------ From: John Harley Subject: G3/Fripp in Seattle - review Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:48:29 -0700 I attended Robert Fripp's initial portion of the G3 show Saturday the 27th in Seattle. In the event anyone is interested, here are my experiences, to the extent they're verbalizable. I would like to say directly to Mr. Fripp: thank you, sir, for your dedication to the continual discovery of music, and your perseverance against the factors which make that dedication difficult. The G3 show was advertised (minimally) as starting at 7PM. I called Ticket#%$^, who told me doors would open at 5:30. I arrived at 5:20, and asked the guard at the entrance when the doors would open; he was unsure, but thought 6:30 or 7PM. I sat down on the pavement and prepared to wait. After a time some people with guest passes came by; I asked them if they knew whether Robert Fripp would be playing, and if so when. They assured me that he would, at 6PM. I continued waiting. The doors opened slightly after 6PM. I was, I believe, the first audient to enter the hall. Mr. Fripp had already commenced playing. I removed my glasses, rendering myself blind, and proceeded to listen. Mr. Fripp played continuously for approximately 75 minutes. He did not address or look at the audience so far as I could tell; nor did the audience address or look at him (with one exception: at the end of his playing, I shouted "Thank you"). The audience was fairly quiet, talking but for the most part not shouting. The sound level was enjoyable: loud enough to be distinct but not so loud as to make the audience become loud. Although there were no breaks, I felt there were about six distinct pieces, which evoked different moods for me. The first piece seemed quiet and introspective, with "guitar" sounds combined with synthesized sounds. The second seemed more outspoken: actively rather than passively passionate, albeit still controlled, with sounds a bit like Belew's elephants. The third integrated the first two, in mood, arriving at a grounded openness. After this piece I began having difficulty concentrating as the hall became increasingly crowded; if I recollect, the fourth piece was more discordant and shattering. For the fifth Mr. Fripp was joined by another guitarist; he played a more simple and consonant Soundscape, with the other guitarist soloing somewhat hesitantly over the top. This piece reminded me somewhat of Evening Star, but all round I get more tingles from the latter. Then the guitarist left, the lights went down, and Mr. Fripp finished with another piece somewhat louder than the fourth but also integrating parts of the fifth (and thus more consonant). At about 7:15 Mr. Fripp terminated his final Soundscape, and walked off stage. The audience applauded. I left the show (since I have insufficient interest in the other guitarists to warrant staying) feeling thoroughly satisfied, somewhat overwhelmed, and deeply meditative. I was and am struck that, despite Mr. Fripp's lack of overt involvement with the audience, I found myself involved with and affected by the music in a way which is different than my experience of recorded music. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:36:14 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Namedropping (minor tritone content) >From: Jessandtom at aol dot com >Subject: Catherine Wheel does Fripp > >Dear persons who read Elephant Talk-- >Trivia Question: Why is there a track entitled "Fripp" on the Catherine >Wheel's 1993 disc "Chrome" [Fontana 314 518 039-2]? You remind me of a similar question, which I've wondered about for years: Why is Fripp pictured/acknowledged on the Damned's Light at the End of the Tunnel compilation? Anyone? >From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" >Subject: Moderation, Reremasters, drums > >Parting shot: does Eb also go by D#? ;) No, but if I ever meet actor A Martinez, I bet our conversation will sound terribly dissonant and disturbing.... Eb ------------------------------ From: anon01 at mlode dot com (Anonymous01 Anon1) Subject: ...random notes... Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:42:52 -0700 Just a few words from another of the six billion of us...After being a big KC fan for half of my 28 years, I finally picked up "In the Wake of Poseidon." I like it. Is RF embarrassed by Poseidon, Lizard & Islands?-- when was the last time a composition from any of these albums was played at a KC show?...actually, the most recent Crimson song I've heard (partially) performed live was the other night, 9/27/97, in Reno, Nevada at the ELP show. But the intro and first two verses to "Schizoid Man" (followed by something unknown) don't really count as a FULL song, do they? Interestingly, it was the only song of the night in which Greg Lake's voice was recognizable. Otherwise, they were quite good in spite of a lukewarm response from the mostly heavily-inebriated middle-aged white-trash casino-crowd audience. Carl Palmer's drum solo was absolutely brilliant, especially for a man in his mid-forties. (see also BRUFORD, BILL.) Regarding Guido Vacano's and Mr. Longwind's posts about a Fripp/Trower collaboration, I say: it's not too late! I'M SERIOUS! Yes, in the past Trower borrowed heavily from Jimi Hendrix, but who can blame him? He's got CHOPS. And regarding Jamison Smeltz' post about taping and/or bootlegging, I say...go for it! My question to anyone disagreeing is this: 1) who makes these tapes, and why? Is it indifferent black-market enterpreneurs running highly profitable operations out of their apartments; or is it serious fans who have already spent a considerable amount of cash on the artist's official releases, and on years' worth of concert tickets? Most likely, a few of the former; MANY more of the latter. I myself own two Crimson bootlegs; I have bought at least ten more official Crimson releases and three KC/Fripp concert tickets, no, four, counting the G3 show at Concord, CA next weekend. Having spent the last seven years of my life toiling away for the vacationing public in Yosemite National Park, CA, I can imagine the almost irresistible tempation our hero RF must feel, to bite the hand that feeds him. Strength, Robert! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:39:36 -0700 From: Steve Apthorpe Organization: snafu Subject: Bill Bruford's kit. To all those curious about Bill Bruford's kit, here are some other articles. Bill Bruford by Michael Shore Modern Drummer Jan-Feb 1979 A Hayman hanging tom, two Roto Toms (14" and 18"), Ludwig bass, snare and floor tom (mix of Hayman and Ludwig due to high cost of latter). Assorted percussion, Paiste cymbals. BB: "I have a whole garage full of cymbals. There are a couple of 16" thin crashes, 20" medium ride with about 10 rivets in it, 15" Sound Edge hi-hats, and a 11" splash." The "strange cymbal atop the rack, bent up on one side like a hat brim ... on 'One More Red Nightmare' to get that very dry, china-type sound." [BB] "That one broke after a while. We found it in a rehearsal room, in the dustbin. I guess the drummer in the group there before screwed it up and threw it away. it was a cheap Zilket* ride. The sound was perfect for the song we were doing then. Its sound was peaking, and then it got worse and worse. It was bent and cracked. I clamped it down pretty tight to get that dry sound, so consequently it just died after a while. It did sound great, one better than a Chinese cymbal. * No, not a Zildjian, a Zilket, and I have no idea what/where or anything else about it. Other articles which essentially repeat what has already been said are: Bill Bruford by Scott K. Fish Modern Drummer June 1993 Bill Bruford: A decade of Electronic Mastery Drums and Drumming Feb 1991 Bill Bruford by Al Murray Rhythm (UK drumming magazine) July 1994 and, of course, Bill Bruford and Pat Mastelotto by William F. Miller Modern Drummer November '95 (Yes I've got them all, and no they're not for sale...) Also, if you can get it, the segment on 'Rock School: Series 1 or 2(?)' (a BBC program) is well worth watching (Bill plays a piece which, I think, is the 'chordal drums' from 'My Heart Declares a Holiday' (Earthworks), and talks about electronic percussion). Simmons Homepage http://www.simmonsdrums.com/ I was there recently, seemed to work okay. It appears that the SDX is no more. I have just sent Dave Simmons some e-mail about this, and querying what Simmons gear BB used, will keep you posted on his reply. Hope this is of some help. While I'm here, the best bullshit filter is the scroll bar. That old crap about Adrian Belew being 'not worthy.' I really only listen to stuff with Adrian Belew on it, still love 'Sleepless' and nearly bought Red but found I only liked the title track, and that was done better on B'Boom. In other words listen to the one's you dig, and try not to upset yourself about the rest. Steve 'Heresy' Apthorpe anodyne at cobweb dot com dot au P.S. I do hope that 'facist dictator' of a moderator won't be too heavy-handed with his editing here(!) ;-) [ What editing? -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:15:31 +0000 From: malhomme Organization: Pasteur Lille Subject: Re: flood Yes, but they could as well play on the two meaning of the flood. Why not using metaphoric language just swim in both water? Tolerancefor ambiguity, eh eh eh Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ From: mnolan at pdd dot pioneer dot co dot uk (Matthew Nolan) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:22:05 +0100 Subject: Brazil coincidence Not sure about the double trio symbol on the video cover, but I have the soundtrack to the film on CD and a certain Mel Collins is credited for some sax playing. It's probably a bad idea to start an ET-ers favorite film thread, but I would recommend to anyone a viewing (or three) of Terry Gilliam's Brazil. It's a masterpiece of comic and doom-laden surrealism. Regards, Matt Nolan. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 06:45:12 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Trower's Friend Fripp Hi, Read an interview somewhere, that Trower and Robert where very good friends.I posted in May about a Trower concert I loved in Pittsburgh and stated I went home and listened to Matte Kadusa. The reason being is Trower gave Robert a guitar that Robert used on this song. I can hear a Trower sound on this.Also I also read that Robin tried to get RF into the blues, but Robert thought that the blues",where to limiting." I know I read this , but where I don't know. Warmly, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:37:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Gregory E Faiers Subject: Here Comes the Flood, Or is it? Hello Red Riders, I couldn't help but respond to the recent flurry of messages regarding the Fripp/Gabriel tune "Here Comes the Flood." I won't get into whether or not this song is actually about some sort of "Noah-esque" flood or some allegory. However, the introductory spoken words have always been interesting to me. I teach university courses on natural hazards and climatology and I have used these introductory spoken words as an example of how scientific inquiery can get twisted and misinterpreted after it gets filtered to the public through the media. In this monologue, there is reference to the upcoming ice ages which will be accompanied by a rise in sea level. What actually is being confused here is the late 1970's anxiety regarding unusually cold/snowy winters which caused doomsayers to predict a rapid climate change back to continental glaciation with the embryonic stages of the carbon dioxide/global warming debate. The problem is, if there were an ice age, sea level would drop rather than rise...therefore no flood. On the other hand, global warming would logically produce some rise in sea level, hence a logical reference to "flood." Therefore there is no logical connection between the snow/cold and increased sea level referred to in the statement prior to the song. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program. Greg Faiers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:18:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: re: Here Comes the Flood Whatever people may think, Peter Gabriel has gone on record as saying that this song is about the apocalypse (and rebirth?) that ensues when suddenly people everywhere are able to communicate telepathically; the ones who survive are the ones who can adapt to this new consciousness (the ones who 'gave their island to survive'.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:22:56 -0400 From: John Hoffman Subject: "Here comes the flood" I've always understood the lyrics to "Here comes the flood" in the context of the medieval "science" of alchemy. The French poet, Arthur Rimbaud, supposedly dabbled in alchemy, and if you read his works in that sense it lends a new meaning to the poems. From what I've read, and from what I remember of what I've read, the alchemists believed there would be a second flood (the first having been of water, the second would be of fire) and this would purge the world of those who did not follow alchemy. Rimbaud seems to have incorporated a great number of alchemical imagery into his poems. I don't know, to tell the truth. I just suppose the song is about the alchemist "flood." The line "And as the nail sunk in the cloud..." reminds me of Mayakovsky. Personally, I just think it's a good poetic description of rain. Maybe someone should ask, or already has asked, Peter Gabriel. John Hoffman. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:30:47 -0700 From: Rob MacCoun Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #423 >>[ I think I read somewhere that the "flood" one would experience if you >> could suddendly read everyone's mind. Or something like that. -- Toby ] Toby's right. I read the same interview with Gabriel. Rob MacCoun Goldman School of Pub Policy Univ. Calif. at Berkeley Berkeley CA 94720-7320 t/510-642-7518, f/510-643-9657 maccoun at socrates dot berkeley dot edu ------------------------------ From: "Van Wey, Alex J" Subject: Fripp at G3 Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:31:36 -0700 At G3, Robert will be in the Finale jam... You can skip Kenny Wayne Shepherd... and maybe the others... but Fripp does play at the end. His solos were the best! > Cheers! Soleil Fou ------------------------------ From: "mike williams" Subject: Re: Here Comes the Flood Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:56:48 -0400 Scenes in the song are taken directly from "Lucifer's Hammer" by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven, a sci-fi book about a comet striking the earth and its aftermath that came out not too long before Gabriel wrote the song. "Lucifer's Hammer" was the comet; the "nails" were the comet shards that struck Earth, much like Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit Jupiter a few years ago. There are too many parallels between the song and the book for this to be coincidence. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time Gabriel had drawn on his love of sci-fi for a song: Watcher of the Skies came largely from "Childhood's End" (though Banks may have written that one). That Bennett addressed the same themes in a different context is, I think, a happy coincidence upon which Fripp capitalized for the "Exposure" version. mike williams ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:40:03 -0500 From: Michael Kovacs Subject: Fripp and The Orb As far as I know, Fripp is not on The Orb albums mentioned (eg Orbvs Terrarvm). He is, however, one of the 'F's' on the CD by FFWD. F, W and D are Thomas Fehlmann, K. Weston and D.A.R. Paterson who were active members or producers of The Orb in 1993. Hence it was recorded before the albums which sound 'influenced' by Fripp. Good pick-up! Mike Kovacs ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:55:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Gary Mayne <0002508399 at MCIMAIL dot COM> Subject: KC Live in 70's In response to Art Andrews' post regarding what the 70's KC live concerts were like (ET 422), I saw KC in 1974 or so (can't remember the exact year) at the Kennedy Center in Washington DC. KC was intense (as one would expect from that period) but they did not seem to connect to the audience. I would blame this on the sterile confines of the Kennedy Center Concert Hall (which I understand was gutted and redone this past summer) and not on KC. The sound was loud and bounced all over that unfortunate venue. Concert sound technology has come far since the 70's and as a result, the quality of a concert today is a little less dependent on venue. Accordingly, I look forward to hearing Nightwatch which from the early reports, appears to have been recorded in a more favorable venue than the Kennedy Center. As a footnote, after more years of concert going then I care to admit, I developed the Concert Punishment Index or CPI. This is a subjective measurement of the pain one endures in attending a concert including sound quality, treatment of the audience (getting frisked etc.), timeliness of the concert start, effort to get to the concert (traffic, distance etc), price, opening act etc. relative to the reward of the performance with 10 being the worst and 1 being the best. I gave the KC Thrak tour, which I attended in Colorado Springs, a CPI of 1: second row center seats, great sound, great opening act (CGT) and tremendous performance by KC. The current G3 tour by contrast appears to be much higher- say 7+ since I would have to drive 70 miles to Denver, arrive early to hear Robert and then sit through three performers I could care less about in order to hear the short encore with Robert. With a CPI estimate that high, I won't be going. Gary ------------------------------ From: "Gustavo Enriquez" Subject: M. C. Crimson ? Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:26:47 -0300 I have a cover tecno-dance version from Crimson's "I talk to the wind " . It's very interesting. The band includes a female vocalist, but I ignore the name of this band. Does any ETer know it ? If you're looking for rare titles to record, I have: RF & LOCG "Live II". LOCG "Get Crafty". RF String Quintet "Buenos Aires 1993. Live at Coliseo". (Bootleg with regular sound) Fripp-Eno "Even Spaces" Paris 1975. GUSTAVO. BUENOS AIRES - ARGENTINA. *---------------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail Address Contact: pcgeonline at houseware dot com dot ar *---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Wed, 01 Oct 97 11:48:26 PST Subject: Ownership of art Hi Eters In ET 423 Jamison Smeltz wrote >"Now that information (digital files of music or text or images or >whatever) will be INSTANTLY ACCESSIBLE we need to re-think our idea >of'ownership'." Why? If you think that an artist has no right to control his "intellectual property" i.e.. his art, and has no right to earn royalties from that art then how will he feed himself? How will he pay his way to keep producing his art? He will have to stop producing art and start working in a factory etc. to feed himself/family. I think you've got it way wrong. If I produce a product then I have the right to have control it's distribution and the condition in which it is sold, displayed etc. and to earn from each sale of that item as long as I have not sold that right to some other person. I don't disagree entirely with bootlegs except that the artist earns no royalties for their "intellectual property". I have always thought that it is really only the die-hard fans (who've already bought all the legitimate product) that buy bootlegs but it would be infinitely better for the artist to earn from those sold.( A company called Apple House in Australia produced bootleg CD's but payed songwritng and performance royalties so they were hard to shut down. Eventually the big record companies threw the weight of their gazillion dollars and legal might and withheld the CD duplication process(they happened to own the CD plants)) Tape swapping is probably better as there is no money changing hands. To say that we need to re-think our idea of ownership is wrong. Hopefully the Internet will allow smaller artists to Market their own product without the need for big (greedy) record companies. However the public needs to know about the product before they will buy and therefore we come down to airplay and we all know how abysmal that is. However artists like Frank Zappa survived on self promotion so there is hope. I think that's enough for today. Regards to all Mark Jordan MUSIC IS THE BEST. FZ ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #424 ********************************