Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #423 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 423 Monday, 29 September 1997 Today's Topics: Fripp & The Orb here comes the flood Nordine New Bill Bruford Album The real "Doctor Diamond" THRAK VOIVOD's cover version of "21st Century Schizoid Man"/EBELING HUGHES If Summer Had Its Ghosts #421:THE FRIPP-TROWER CONNECTION Re: Trower I advance masked Mea culpa, mea culpa Re:Subject: Remasters Re: I talk to the wind (Fem. Vocal) Catherine Wheel does Fripp re: remasters PROGRESSIVE~SPIRAL ( a new website) + E-TALK (essential archive!) Fripp with G3 Vroom (three different ones) The undefined edition Re: draining pockets re: Ted White and the 'Classical' KC E Tape Fripp's Guitar Bruford? Bruford/Mastellato ELP was OK Moderation, Reremasters, drums KC on Brazil? KC remasters - is it time? re: Level I Guitar Craft course Future remastering of the KC catalog New KC Digital Pat's "straight backbeat" Boots to trade RE: Remasters ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 01:38:25 -0400 Subject: Fripp & The Orb I recently picked up UFORB, and Orbvs Terrarvm at a used CD store. The later disc has some very Frippy sounding guitarscapes. However I cannot find any mention of Mr. Fripp on this disc. Does anyone know if this is an uncredited performance, or a really great interpretation of his style? Les B. Labbauf "It's always better to regret something you have done then to regret something you haven't done!" - Anonymous "There may be a legal obligation to obey, but there will be no moral obligation to obey. When it comes to history it will be the people that break the law for freedom who will be remembered and honored." Tony Benn, Labour MP "Beautiful!...magnificent desolation!" Buzz Aldrin "Something Unknown Is Doing Something We Don't Know What." Sir Arthur Eddington "What Me Worry?" Alfred E. Newman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:32:59 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: here comes the flood >I agree about Exposure. Until I heard Here Comes the Flood juxtaposed with >Bennetts quote about the coming disaster, I didn't really know what the >song was about. I wonder if PG and RF still feel this way? Anyone know? > >[ I think I read somewhere that the "flood" one would experience if you > could suddendly read everyone's mind. Or something like that. -- Toby ] Hm. Thats interesting, but doesn't make sense to me. Why say "stranded starfish have no place to hide, sill waiting for the swollen easter tide"? Or, now this is admittedly obscure, "and as the nails sunk in the cloud, the rain was warm and soaked the crowd"....I remember reading about experiments done in the 1950's by the US wherein tiny copper needles were launched into the ionosphere to experiment with radar interference. I wonder if this could be a reference to that? I'll curtail this digression now. My point is that some of the words to me don't jibe with a meaning of the flood of being able to read minds....particularly when juxtaposed with Bennett talking about global flooding. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:40:16 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: Nordine >Aha. Well, I wonder if Gary Davis even knows this -- after all, the phrase >has passed into common use by now. Heck, I didn't know that and I even own >two Nordine CDs (Colours and the Rhino best-of). Which Nordine track >includes that phrase, anyway? The track in question is "Flibberty Jib"...on Rhino's "The Best of Word Jazz Vol.1" Anyone who hasn't heard Ken Nordine ought to. No one will believe the stuff was done in 1957. WAY ahead of his time ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 12:32:08 -0700 From: Jeff Kamil Subject: New Bill Bruford Album Hi, Can anybody please tell us a little more about the new Bil lBruford album. Is this the trio with Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez? Is it available yet, in the US? I'm really excited about this recording. I'm a big Towner fan and of course I love B.B (Eddie Gomez is not too shabby himself!). Best.. Jeff ("H the H") >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeffrey S. Kamil & Harry the Hat Productions http://www.wco.com/~harryhat New Baby Online(TM) http://www.wco.com/~ellynha/newbaby <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 15:58:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: The real "Doctor Diamond" Steve Smith wrote [and Mike Dickson interpolated]: >I seem to remember reading once that there was a real Doctor Diamond. >He was a British doctor known for liberally doling out drugs to rock >stars, kind of a U.K. analogue to Elvis Presley's Dr. Nick. > >[ Perhaps you are getting confused with Dr Robert, a New York doctor who >used to 'ehnance' his star-bound vitamin shots with methedrine, and >later celebrated in the Beatles song of the same name on 'Revolver'. >Mike ] > >Fripp states in the "Great Deceiver" booklet that "Doctor Diamond" >"never fell into place as a piece of writing" which may be one reason >it was never taken into the studio, but another reason might have been >fear of a slander suit... >The thing that's bothering me is that I can't for the life of me >remember where I read this story. You probably read it in Goldmine's 1992 cover story on King Crimson, written by, ahem, me. This article is the only place I'm aware of where Fripp has spoken publicly about the subject matter of this song. (Excerpts from the article appear in the _Great Deceiver_ booklet, combined with my review of _Frame By Frame_, but this omits most of the material about Crimson's history which made up the bulk of the original article.) In asking Fripp about the song, I used its alternate title of "Doctor D." Fripp replied: "Its original title was a little longer, because it referred to a doctor, a specific man living in London that earned a living prescribing drugs to musicians. We were informed that we ran the risk of libel. We were instructed to change the title." As the song makes no overt references to illicit activities (and any symbolic allusions to drugs are extremely vague), it's hard to see exactly where the grounds for a libel suit would lie. Michael P. Dawson (and his pal, Biffy the Elephant Shrew) @}-`--}---- ...visit us at http://members.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:42:33 CDT From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" Subject: THRAK In #421, Ken L wrote about THRAK being a good album, but the band just isn't really sure about what to do, especially with the presence of two drummers. I agree, and I think Thrakattak shows the same problems, only worse. This should not be an improv band--the possibilities for astoundingly intricate music are there, but with improv everybody gets confused and starts stepping on each other's toes. Thrakattak is what improv sounds like when you don't have any repeated ideas, and that's why it's so excruciating to listen to. KC II did repeat themselves just enough so that you could actually understand everything they were doing (the first time I heard Providence from Red I thought it was a song they'd written!! Imagine my surprise when I get TGD and realize they just sat down and did it...). A few short, random thoughts: are ETers tall? Uh, yeah, we're all frigging giants. Also, about moderation of ET: I'm on the Ytsejam, which is the mailing list for Dream Theater. It's unmoderated. DT just put out a new album which is a radical departure from their style and some fan posted something like this (pardon me, Toby, but this is just for the sake of argument): > instructionsfor those who don't like the new album. 1. TAKE OUT THE CD > 2. BREAK IT INTO FOUR PARTS 3. SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS WHOLE [sic] Moderation is necessary. Enough said. One more thing: I'm anxious to hear the album that Levin will be doing with DT's Petrucci and Portnoy. Anybody know any details? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 19:58:24 -0400 From: Pat Subject: VOIVOD's cover version of "21st Century Schizoid Man"/EBELING HUGHES Hello Groons!!! I just made a trip over to one of my *metal-head* friend's house. Anyway, every time a new VOIVOD cd comes out, I always make the trip to check it out. The cover version of "21st Century Schizoid Man" on VOIVOD's "Phobos" cd is strikingly phenominal. VOIVOD are a must hear band for all Crimso-freaks(only the RED-period). Check out the following releases by VOIVOD: 1. VOIVOD-"Nothingface" 1989 2. VOIVOD-"Angel Rat" 1991 3. VOIVOD-"Dimension Hatross" 1987 4. VOIVOD-"The Outer Limits" 1993 5. VOIVOD-"Phobos" 1997 Very intense music, and great on the senses. BTW, why aren't VOIVOD in The Gibraltar Encyclopedia Of Progressive Rock??? They're a helluva lot more *progressive* than all the pansy-ass Neo-Prog. bands nowadays. Damn I hate Neo-Prog.!!! For those in to Neo-Prog; Bring on the flames and consider yourself a hopeless troll!!! I also witnessed an excellent set of music at the Magic Bag in Ferndale, MI., U.S.A. last night(Friday). The name of the band was EBELING HUGHES. They have a CD out called EBELING HUGHES-"The Little Bugs Glow" 1996, and it is a must have for FRIPP/ENO, SOFT MACHINE, and SYD BARETT fans. They are a duo, but have the sound of a 5 man band. They completely blew me away. Their CD is available from several internet distributors. Ciao-4-now, JULIAN "The Ranting Man" BELANGER (from Paincourt, Ont., Canada) "THIS IS THE GIG TO END ALL GIGS; THIS IS THE NIGHT OF THE PIGS!!!"----Arthur Brown's "Galactic Zoo Dossier" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:14:19 -0700 From: Poisson Subject: If Summer Had Its Ghosts Hi everybody, I picked Bill Bruford's latest release at the NightWatch playback, and after repeated listening for two weeks, I must recommend it to anyone on this list. Simply gorgeous... Cheers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:16:39 -0700 From: Mr LONGWIND Organization: Mr LONGWIND Subject: #421:THE FRIPP-TROWER CONNECTION For those that have the GREAT DECEIVER box set. you can read about this in the included book. Crimson toured with Robin trower in 1974. I remember Robert said somewhere in the booklet that there was even talk about he and Robin working together on a project. I don't know about you all but think about that combination. I definitely see a cool trade-off in styles but they are also similar in style as well. While Trower's does not make me think of Fripp, I can see a "bridge". Jon Johnson ------------------------------ From: gvacano at beaver dot mbb dot wesleyan dot edu (Guido Vacano) Subject: Re: Trower Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Mike says-- > Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but... apparently the new CD > re-issues of Robin Trower have enthusisatic sleeve notes by Robert > Fripp. This means I have to buy another copy of _Bridge of Sighs_! :-P > This can't be true can it? Tho' I quite like Trower, I can't > figure out the Fripp connection... unless of course he's a fan. I'm not sure what the connection is either. However, in the booklet from _The Great Deceiver_, Fripp writes that he and Robin were thinking of collaborating on a project. IMHO, that would be far more interesting than any of the "wished for" Fripp collaborations listed in ET in the past. I certainly hope that Trower and Fripp dust off the idea, and proceed with it. That would be challenging music! > Imagine the cosy scene -- Toyah happily knitting another pedal-warmer > for Robert, while our man struts and plays air guitar (with suitable > facial expressions if I recall) to Long Misty Days.... Naaah, this can't > be right. Can it? Why not? :-) I don't see why we must picture Fripp the way we tend to picture Bach, Brahms, and Beethoven--as humorless, deadly serious musicians of great bearing and dignity. I can easily picture Fripp playing air guitar, or even bellowing out "Let's rock!". But then, I believe that Bach was a joyful old soul who loved his children, delighted in his music, and probably had a sip of wine every now and then, so what do I know? Guido P.S.--I think he'd be playing air guitar to "Too Rolling Stoned". :-) -- If nothing is done, then all will be well. -- Lao Tse ------------------------------ From: "Art Keuling" Subject: I advance masked Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 00:59:39 -0600 I've been feeling melancholy lately and have listened to one of my favorite Fripp collabrative tunes. I advance masked. I know of two albums by the pair. Have they collaborated since ? Fripp interacted with Summers. Did he interact with the others of the Police ? I am also interested if Fripp interacted with Iggy Pop, back in the Scary Monsters/Heroes phase of Bowie (Bowies best music, he was just not as good after 'Let's dance'). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 05:23:57 -0700 From: Jamison Smeltz Subject: Mea culpa, mea culpa Hello ye of Rubish complexity-- I'd like to bring up a topic (not knowing if it has yet been brought up, at least recently enough to not be considered boring or trite, being new to the site and all) and confess a sin. To be blunt: I like to record shows. I shudder to think that, yes indeed, I may be a bootlegger, so justifiably and universally spat upon by all artists that have been somehow screwed by them. I do make a distinction, however, in that the shows I record I do for my own listening pleasure. Not for any kind of profit motive, or even to pass them around (in the possibility of that eventually happening). No, I record shows (including my own) to learn from them, to enjoy them, and to give due to the uniqueness and singularity of all live music. Improvisation (whether typical 'jazz' improv of soloing for 32 bars over a set pattern of chords, or the gradual variation of a set tune over a number of performances, or all-out blow-whatever-the-fuck-you-want-and-the-guys-around-you-will-do- the-same-and -you'll-all-just-bounce-off-each-other improv) is where ability, intuition, spontaneity, and time meet, and will always be somehow different. All performances are not only worthy of experiencing once, but as often as they edify. Reading (recently) of RF's devotion to recording his own performances , being 'archivist', if you will, ... fits, I guess. I'm appreciating the Epitaph set, looking forward to the other 2 discs. The Great Deceiver was a highlight as well-- long a Bruford fan, myself, but absolutely astounded by Michael Giles here (as well as Ian Macdonald-- and listen to THIS shit for some serious horn improv---) I think sometimes recording artists (who feel the need to sanitize all their 'product') forget the HISTORY intrinsic in past works. The idea of releasing archival concerts (see Grateful Dead-- right? right?? ) gives fans the opportunity to see/hear the band in a way they probably haven't before. I read 'NFTE' (a Yes site) a lot, and some of the fans into the '75 stuff weren't even born then!! It is so important that we acknowledge the desire of fans to experience history, and that we make it available. Hey-- we want the warts. Really. This Epitaph set is the SHIT. (Uh, that means I really like it...) You can hear crowd voices at the F. East show!! It sounds like IT REALLY HAPPENED!! No overdubs, no fixing. A moment of time! Real! (well, except for EQ and remixing and mastering and...) Listen to Ian on A Man, A City-- forget what you know about the sax. I think he matched RF's tone/style/whatever, enrgy for energy, like no one else. Okay, I'm prejudiced. And Giles? I'm telling all my drummer friends to check this out-- even making them tapes. Whoops-- does that constitute artist infringement? Guess so, huh? Then what about buying cds used? Is that to be morally rebuked? Where do we draw the line? Here's my view: I wish all performers could completely control their performances and the revenue-generating possibilities thereof. As a musician, I would love to have that work for me as well. BUT: as a student of history, a fan of music, I think these moments should be a part of public consciousness. Yes, these are conflicting statements. I guess my desire , as a FAN, to possess rare recordings (there, I've said the 'P' word), outweighs my sympathy for an artist not getting his/her just desserts. Here's a quick story: in my history of 'bootlegging' (~15 major shows, decidedly more minor ones; a Sony WMD3 shoved down me trousers), I've dubbed out 2 (Two) tapes of those shows, in total, to friends. I was busted, recording, once: KC at Zellerbach Hall Berkeley, CA, late 95 (?). My wee recorder was presented to KC's tour manager after an usher peeked over my shoulder and saw a red LED signal he wasn't supposed to see. I had just switched to the 2nd 90-minute tape, which was still inside as the usher carted it off. The first words said Mgr. greeted me with, after meeting him apres- show to retrieve said WMD3, were, "Where's the other tape?" I insisted the tape was off the premises, and he had no right to keep my recorder. So he suggested I talk to Mr. Fripp about it. Hmmm. To actually have to argue 'bootleg ethics' with a man who is one of the more vocal (and articulate, natch) proponents of artist's rights... maybe not now. So I buckled. (Meeting a person you respect, admire, and are awed by, in a situation where he is probably going to loathe you on sight, is perhaps better avoided.) I got the tape from my friend wating for me outside, and gave it to said tour mgr, who proceeded to go below and give it a listen, to be sure it was indeed tonight's performance. Well there I am, sitting in the house as they tear down post-show, sweating bullets, and who should walk up surrounded by a gaggle of fans but Tony Levin! I hunched down in my seat; he didn't ask me any embarassing questions (or any others); and I was eventually reunited with my trusty recording walkman, battered but faithful. I then scooted out, properly chastised and repentent. I wonder if Bob has ever given that tape a listen. Or if he has another recording from that night. Because it deserves to be experienced again. In the liner notes to 'Epitaph' he says that if Michael hadn't had a tape to those Fillmore East shows, they would not be now available to us. And, by conjunction, I would not now be listening to Ian deconstructing myths of the saxophone. We must look beyond our personal needs. Music is food for our spiritual evolution. Hey--check out the beginning of cd4 of Great Deceiver-- going into an improv (The Golden Walnut), some cat in the crowd hollers "Hocus Pocus!!" (that hip Focus tune from '72-73), and Bruford kicks it off with the tom-tom sixteenth-sixteenth-eighth pattern which should lead into 'Du-dunn-dunn-dunn, da-dunn-dunn-Downnn, Du-dunn-dunn, da dunn"! NOW SEE?!?! That is why we need these live bits! This, to me, is a far greater recognition than any kind of financial remuneration. I can't put any price on what KC and RF's music has added to my musical knowledge/jones, but I can put a price on what I have paid for it: $~50 in concert tix (3: 84, 95, 96), and $26 for BBoom, the only KC album I have bought new. I buy everything used: cars, clothes, music. I bought one sax (of 8) new. And a new computer-- my first (this one). It's an economic necessity, really. I never thought that recording a friend's album (and spending .50 insted of $6) was anything except frugal. Now I realise that this is a moral question, and that I have been unintentionally cheating those artists I have come to emulate. Dave Matthews (of ..Band) is notorious about his disdain for booteleggers. But we tapeheads think that taping promotes interest of artists as well as their repertoire. I personally attribute the success of the Dead to their encouragement of taping. With the distribution possibilities of the 'net, I think this whole discussion will soon be moot, and artists will be able to instantly get performace tapes (files?) to their fans. Interest in their back catalog will correspondingly increase, as well. Now that information (digital files of music or text or images or whatever) will be INSTANTLY ACCESSIBLE we need to re-think our idea of 'ownership.' We need to narrow our sources, or should I say pinpoint our access to the source. You make it, I'll pay you to get a copy of it. What would you say to $2 for a 75-minute recording you download over an ISDN line and burn into your own cd/dvd/whatever? Musicians can get back to making music, and stop being economists-- "Free of the economic necessity to succeed." (D. DelaVega, 97) It's about time. Anyway-- thanks for the glimpse into the past. Looking forward to the '80s. Jamison. ------------------------------ From: "Mr Sexappeal" Subject: Re:Subject: Remasters Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 07:01:04 PDT >Some months ago, I began writing a piece that dissected the >so-called >"Definitive Edition" remasters, with particular attention paid to the >many >flaws in the first 4 titles, which I intended to post here. About the flaws. Try not to listen to the sound, listen to the music. Think not of the sound as music, but of the music as sound.. And a LP has a better sound reproduction then an CD has. That can explain some of the sound quality. But still I think it's a shame that these things happend. I just got ITCOTCK remastered, and thought it was fine then a compared it to the Lp, I noticed a difference in volume, it's like the volume is turned up and down during mastering. Strange... Well it's good music, thats what matters. "If you like art, you would like the idea behind it more..." Unknown. Just wanted to do my part in the debate. Izaac... http//www.geocities.com/paris/metro/3703 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:12:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re: I talk to the wind (Fem. Vocal) This track can be found on "The Young Person's Guide To King Crimson" and was originally going to appear on "The Cheerful Insanity Of Giles, Giles And Fripp" (If I've got this wrong, someone tell me) but when Judy Dyble (The Female Vocalist) left GG&F they took it off the album, only to record a better version on "ITCOTCK". And if you're interested in the original albums, Virgin have a package out called "King Crimson - The First Three", which obviously will have ITCOTCK, ITWOP & Lizard. Sadly, these are remastered, and not the original copies, but still worth the money. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:00:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Jessandtom at aol dot com Subject: Catherine Wheel does Fripp Dear persons who read Elephant Talk-- Trivia Question: Why is there a track entitled "Fripp" on the Catherine Wheel's 1993 disc "Chrome" [Fontana 314 518 039-2]? --------Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:54:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: re: remasters Re the interesting post on problems with the DE versions of the KC catalog, skepticism is expressed as to whether the original master tapes were used for In the COurt and other KC works. The answer is, definitely in one case and probably in others, no. This from the Fripp interview in Stereo Review , June 1992 "It wasn't easy. In most cases, particularly with the earliest of King Crimson recordings, the original master tapes- that is, the tapes used to create the first vinyl version- were unavailable. Fripp and Arnold had only "copy masters" to work with, second or third generation masters supplied to companies releasing the record outside of the country of origin. ""When 'Court' was cut in America from the quarter-inch copy master, there was a fault in the right channel. What we did to balance it at that time was to add 10k [10,000Hz] and let the right side break up.... And when we remastered it in 1989, instead of using a fixed-band EQ we used dynamic equalization with an Aphex. The currently available remastered 'Court' has things on it you can't hear even on the original vinyl. But the master [we had to use] was flawed, probably because the original two-track machine at Wessex Studio in 1969 that made it had either a worn or damaged head on the right channel, or else there was dirt on the head which wasn't recognized at the time. The original master- I have no idea where it is. I'm only working from the best copy masters I can get. The eight-track of 21st Century Schizoid Man was stolen from the Wessex tape stock, which in those days was a cupboard that anyone could go into and lift a tape out of. You see, [pop] recording in 1969 was by and large not a professional business." I wonder if Fripp now has access to the real OMT's for the post-In the Court stuff, since his legal settlement with EG? This, plus advances in mastering technology might accoutn for his desire to remaster the catalog again. I wonder too if DGM were to put out a call to the bootleg community for that precious In the Court OMT, whether it might surface, as did some Who tracks when their catalog was being remastered. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:36:11 +0100 From: progressive dot spiral at writeme dot com Organization: "PROGRESS" magazine + PROGRESSIVE~SPIRAL website Subject: PROGRESSIVE~SPIRAL ( a new website) + E-TALK (essential archive!) >From : progressive dot spiral at writeme dot com (Tiz Hay) http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/2757 New website Progressive~Spiral carries news/reviews/gig guide for music that is progressing. Clearly, prominence should be given to King Crimson, RF, Bill Bruford, Tony Levin, John Wetton, etc. In common with the terrestrial world, the P~S website readership currently includes rather too many people who remain unconvinced or insufficiently aware of music by those artists. Can some ETers help? Please comment in our Guestbook, perhaps describing how you first grew to appreciate specific albums, or were amazed by gigs! Which albums are best for 'beginners'? Or for lapsed listeners? How do you rate current DGM releases compared with any reference point you care to choose? The Guestbook awaits comments from you (yes, you!) at : http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/2757 Currently, Progressive~Spiral has a review of the 13/09/97 'Nightwatch' playback in London, & a CD review for 'Black Light Syndrome' by Bozzio Levin Stevens. Any volunteers tempted to join our reviewing team? E-mailed examples of your abilities welcome at : progressive dot spiral at writeme dot com Some 8 years ago I started running music enthusiasts publications ('Progress' is now a hybrid between fanzine & real magazine). So I know the value, & hard toil, of providing a facility such as E-Talk enabling fellow enthusiasts to exchange opinions within a forum of free speech. I was sad reading ET web's Daniel Kirkdorffer revealing that, sometime soon, all RF's responses in ET are to be deleted from the archives. Perhaps George Orwell was prophetic with '1984' ~ history is indeed being rewritten! Whilst I commend the Discipline website, & welcome inclusion of some craftily compiled future features gleaning content from Mr Fripp's ET writings, I wonder why he purportedly feels it necessary for them not to remain, also, in their original placement. Elephant Talk is invaluable. Had it never existed, probably many newcomers would never have given a listen to the music concerned, & I would hazard a guess than some past fans have had their interest rekindled by this magnificent forum! Hope our own humble website can welcome some elephantine missives! Tiz Hay, webmistress Progressive~Spiral + Editor of 'Progress' magazine (soon 2B monthly!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:36:05 +0100 From: Watts Subject: Fripp with G3 I will be attending G3 and Robert Fripp at the Sunrise Musical Theater in Sunrise Florida on 10-16. Does anybody know what the Fripp playlist will be? It is a great theater that holds a few thousand. I saw KC there in November. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:45:27 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: Vroom (three different ones) WARNING: this post contains the words "MIDI" and "7/8"! Lately, a lot of my thoughts have been on songs vs. recordings of songs. What does a recording capture and what does it fail to capture? I often ask the people I work with, "should a recording of a song be the definitive performance by which all other performances are judged, or should it simply be, given the absence of errors, one of many possible performances?" RF has been kind enough to give us three versions of 'Vroom' to which we may listen. I note that in all three versions the tempo is different as well as the drummers' parts. Fripp's parts seem to be pretty much the same throughout all three versions, with one exception. The middle section (the slightly dreamy section in 7/8) is fundamentally different on B'Boom (sequentially, the second of the three versions) than on Thrak and the Vroom EP. Rhythmically, Fripp's playing on this section (both times) is so different that I am inclined to wonder if this is (forgive me) a mistake. I have not decided that it is; I am only wondering. If it is a mistake, the same mistake is made in both repetitions of that section, with the latter of the two brought to a close by the sound of Robert not quite hitting the MIDI controller on time, thus switching sounds a bit early. While this is certainly a minor error, in the world of MIDI switching, its about as bad as it gets. I only mention this because it squelches the argument that if RF's rhythm on the section in question were actually suspect, it would not have appeared on the record. Since RF has clearly allowed the inclusion of a technical error on his part, why then would he not include a rhythmic error? I wonder if he has, or if his playing on this section simply constitutes a stylistic variation which is intentional. Any thoughts? Also, I am going to see Fripp at G3 on October 12. Does anyone know if Fripp re-appears with the group after his initial Soundscapes performance, or would I be free to leave when the Soundscapes are concluded? Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham AL ------------------------------ From: jlack at auran dot com (Jamie Lack) Subject: The undefined edition Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:00:12 +1000 This is why I think Fripp would re master the KC back catalog again. It seems simple to me.. Robert is an immensely creative person, and the back catalog of King Crimson recordings represent a huge amount of his life. They are, in fact a great documentation of a particularly amazing period of music. So If I had acquired new means to improve the state of past creations, I would certainly do so. It really would be for my own satisfaction, to do something like that, and I am guessing it would be similar in Roberts case. So why wouldn't you replace the existing marketed versions with the newly improved ones.? And no one write back saying "But it doesn't sound better, .... look, there is a bit missing, or there is a different level here etc.." , remember, this is just your opinion, and just everyone elses, but it not Roberts, and he is the one who exists to do this, and he is the one who has devoted his life to this, so just accept it. It makes things somehow easier. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 23:06:31 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: draining pockets >From: hecker > >I'm really puzzled about all these recent postings saying, essentially >how bad that we have to put out money again for this upcoming remastered CDs >from the King Crimson back catalogue". This attitude seems to be completely >inconsistent...So, I'm asking, what problem do these folks have??? > >Dr. Ulrich von Hecker Not all of us are rich doctors. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:15:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Ace Subject: re: Ted White and the 'Classical' KC Neil Talbott wrote in ET 412: >Talking of ELP plagiarising the classics, at least they have the decency to >acknowledge their sources. The worst case of plagiarising I've ever heard >is the film music of James Horner, who shamelessly plunders the early >scores of Bartok (The Wooden Prince), Prokofiev and Stravinsky (The [...] On ELP's first album, The Barbarian is an unacknowledged adaptation of Bela Bartok's Allegro Barbaro for piano (1911). Knife-Edge borrows liberally from Leos Janacek's Sinfonietta (1926), and its bridge is taken from J. S. Bach's French Suite #1 (prehistoric :). Those sources are also not acknowledged in the album notes. However, Keith Emerson has said in an interview that Bartok's and Janacek's estates received royalties from the proceeds of ELP's first album even though the composers weren't credited. Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" Subject: E Tape Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:17:36 PDT Elephant Tape, the audio page for ETers, is now using the Real Audio system to present musical tracks. ETers wishing to have their music posted can now e-mail in RA files as attachments, as well as send cassettes, DATs, or CDs by conventional mail. Just write for submission information. I wrote to Trey Gunn, and he gave permission to post "Dziban" off his release "The Third Star." After reading recommendations in ET of the new Los Gauchos Alemanes disc "Little Beast",I asked Steve Ball for a track, and he contributed "Fireplace." "Little Beast" is a disc that a lot of ETers will find appealing. You can find E Tape at: http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/ Jeffrey Weinberger jweinberger at hotmail dot com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Van Wey, Alex J" Subject: Fripp's Guitar Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:48:55 -0700 Greetings! Saturday night (September 27th) I saw RF creating his soundscapes at the G3 concert in Seattle. I was wondering what guitar he was using. It looked like a Les Paul, but the head wasn't shaped like a Gibson's head. My friend kept insisting that it was a Les Paul... but I thought otherwise. Just a side note: When I got to the venue, I was early (I bought G3 tickets just to see RF), so I sat in the front and center. I was right in front of Master Fripp. So I had a perfect view. That was until the security crew were gathering right in front of me. They were rudely blocking my view as they were gossiping. Then I noticed that RF stopped playing (the notes were still sustaining though). RF then walked over to the guards and said, "Gentlemen. I don't need your protection..." I can't remember exactly what he said, but he got them to move off to the sides of the stage. So Mr. Fripp, if you are reading this: <> Thank You, Soleil Fou Alex J Van Wey (Bass/Vocals) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:37:22 -0400 From: Patrick West Organization: RedShift Subject: Bruford? For everyone that has tried to help me with the Bill Bruford INFO, thanks. I have bought a simmons SDS400 electronic drum module, I was told Bill used the SD5 and SD7. Well I'm not sure what these modules are, and where my module ranks. I tried to find simmons home page but I am having problems. Once again I am in need of someone to enlighten me with this knowledge. Does anyone know the exact sizes of Brufords kit from discipline era? Cymbals? and what did bruford use for his hihat sounds seeing how he didn't have a pair in his setup. Does anyone know where I could email Bill directly, thats probably a dumb question but I'll take the chance. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:27:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Tomas Howie Subject: Bruford/Mastellato >Hi I'm a drummer, (big fan of Bruford) (of course). And I wonder if >anyone has a drum setup over brufords set, I've seen a lot of photos but >not a tecnical readout. And the same about Pat Mastelotto. >I've followd him from his early sessions via Mr Mister and now to The >Double Trio, so if anyone has a setup over his drum i'd like to know. >Gozinbulks on you all. The November 1995 issue of Modern Drummer magazine devoted its cover to Bruford/Mastellato (after release of THRAK, during the first tour to support that album). A very interesting package of articles; if you're even remotely interested in these two drummers you owe it to yourself to get a back issue. (Call MD at 800-551-3786 for more info.) Part of the article includes a sidebar called "The King's Armaments", which gives a detailed listing of both men's equipment, plus a layout drawing. Here's the sidebar verbatim: Bill's Kit: Starclassic in canary yellow finish. 5x14 wood snare 10x10 tom 11x12 tom 16x16 floor tom 18x22 bass drum Cymbals: Paiste (all from their "Paiste" series) 14" Sound Edge hi-hats 16" thin crash 16" thin China 18" Full crash 20" Dry ride Simmons zone-intelligent pads. Hardware: TAMA, including a Power Tower rack and an Iron Cobra bass drum pedal. Heads: Evans Genera 190 snare batter, Genera G1 on tops of toms with Resonants on bottoms, Genera G2 on bass drum batter and Genera EQ3 on front. Sticks: Pro-Mark SD9 and SD1 models (maple). Electronics: Simmons SDX, DW 5000TE trigger pedal (positioned immediately to the right of the kick pedal), Yamaha DX11, Celestion speakers, and a rack consisting of an Alesis Quadraverb, Mapper (to assign notes and/or chords to pads), E-mu Procussion, Simmons 8:2 stereo mixer, and a Trace Elliot power amp. Pat's setup: Drumset: Joe Montineri custom kit in Peacock "Lava Lamp" finish (with Starclassic "Starcast" hoops on bottoms of toms for mounting drums to Tama stands, triple-flanged hoops on top [he's a hard-hitter!!]). 4x14 snare 8" "Timbongo" (single-headed wood tom) 8x10 tom 9x12 tom 12x14 floor tom (mounted) 12" "Timbalito" (single-headed wood tom) 16x22 bass drum Korg Wave Drum and detached rim (both for triggering various sounds) KAT poleKAT Hardware: Tama, including an Iron Cobra double pedal. Heads: Remo coated Ambassadors on everything (to get a different sound from Bill's clear Evans heads). Sticks: Vic Firth 5A with nylon tip (with Calato Stick Grips), Emil Richards mallets. Electronics: Yamaha DTS-70, Kurzweil K2000RS, Korg A2, Lexicon Vortex, Mackie CR1604, Celestion speakers. Cymbals: Paiste (from their "Paiste" series, unless specified) 8" mini-hats 8" splash with 5" Vision cup on top two 8" 2002 inverted, stacked, and cracked splashes with a 2" finger cymbal in between [!] 12" splash with two inverted 8" splashes mounted above 16" "Crystal" crash 20" crash with 14" China underneath, held together with a microphone stand base (very trashy!) 20" thin China 15" sound plate (Montineri) mounted on China cymbal 22" gong with rivets (drilled to fit stand) (Pat also uses several small cymbals that he either places on his drums to play or plays with his hands.) Table 1: Alesis SR16 beat box, Tama Rhythm Watch, Lexicon pedals, Moon Gel practice pad, pens, keys, notes, maps, tea towels, etc. Table 2: Engelhart large Tambo bar, Rhythm Crasher (old and rusty), found objects (glass, wood, metal, etc.). Table 3: Sticks and mallets. You really need to see the diagrams to make sense out of all this, particularly Pat's setup. Some nice photos of the boys and their gear! I hope this helps.... *************************************************************************** * Tomas * "Language is the light * * West Chazy, NY USA * of the mind." * * tomas at slic dot com * - John Stuart Mill * *************************************************************************** * Tomas Howie Drum Web: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9870/ * * Resource Web: http://members.tripod.com/~THowie/ * * Howie Homestead: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2340/ * * Howie Keynote Web: http://members.tripod.com/~howiekeynote/ * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 21:13:02 -0400 From: Bob Gorry Subject: ELP was OK So many glowing reviews of ELP shows, I had to add some balance. As a point of reference, I was a big ELP fan at one time and still enjoy some stuff from time to time. I went to the concert because I never caught them back in the day (I was in junior high when they disbanded and almost caught the last tour) and I was curious. This tour shows them as a competent nostalgia act. They obviously still have ability,but it is not the same, and thus old songs suffer. Greg's voice was not as bad as once reported. He did not miss too many notes, but the power that used to carry some songs was not there and was sadly missed. Keith sounded reasonably good, he had a big analog rack and some good digital facsimile's. He was fluid enough, but the surgery certainly has had some effect on speed which was a big part of his style. Carl was still Carl for the most part. It seemed to be a very short show at the first break, and fairly concise which was refreshing, but then an encore filled with all the old antics knives, dry ice, long drum solos showing chops but no soul, torn off shirts and rolling on the stage) verged on sillines. All in all a competent nostalia act with a reasonable song selection (except _Touch and Go_). In a small way, it is prog's version of ringo's band, i.e. songs we all know performed well. It was certainly not embarassing like some old bands. Perhaps it is a tune-up to start working on new material reflecting their current states of mind and body. A wonderfully understated light show. Bob Gorry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:07:13 CDT From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" Subject: Moderation, Reremasters, drums Just curious--can we ban the banned thread thread? Enough already...;) Jon makes a good point about the Definitive Definitive Editions...nobody ahs said you had to buy these...I don't think I will, since I have so many of the Red Monarch's stuff on the DE CDs...however, the ones I'm still missing (Lizard and Three of A Perfect Pair) I will get on the reremasters.... J. Screnci: as a drummer, I agree that Fripp gets a lot of attention around here, and sometimes that's to the detriment of the other band members and/or alumni. Bruford's been very important to KC (imagine Starless without Bruford...it wouldn't have been quite the same booming, apocalyptic masterpiece it is if not for Bruford's inexorable patience). As a sidebar, I'm not too familiar with electronic drums...if you could describe them a bit that'd be great, and I think that would be relevant enough for ET at large.... Parting shot: does Eb also go by D#? ;) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:35:43 -0500 (CDT) From: cain joren reid Subject: KC on Brazil? I bought the movie "Brazil" on video yesterday and noticed that on the cover there is some kind of really small something-or-other. But on that is a symbol which looks remarkably like the KC Double Trio symbol. Any connection?(probably not-but I thought I'd make that known) That brings up another question: do KC fans enjoy similar movies? This may be completely stupid, but it's partly an attempt to end the tingles thread, and partly because I am genuinely curious. I for one enjoy movies by the Coen brothers (Raising Arizona, Fargo, Barton Fink, etc.) and Terry Gilliam (Brazil, Fisher King, 12 Monkeys, etc.), among others (mostly violent or extrmely depressing). Just curious. -Joren Cain ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:57:41 -0800 From: PT Organization: QDK Subject: KC remasters - is it time? Hello, I just started subscribing to ET a few days ago, but I noticed some discussions and arguements regarding the annoucement that it's time to remaster the KC catalog on CD. As a musician, producer and sometime mastering assistant - I can tell you that so much has changed in mastering equipment in the last 5 to 8 yrs, that "yes" it is time to do some remastering and I think everyone will be shocked how much better something can sound when remastered again - even if the 1st time around it was "state of art" - 5 years in the digital age (and anything past that) is like a 20 years in the analog world - everytime they update some mastering software - it really can make a difference in the final product.... so I await what the new CD remasters will sound like. my only suggestions to Fripp and co: 1) please take special care with RED - the CD and some of the various vinyl reissues thru the years have never really sounded "right" to me compared to the original vinyl mastering job 2) how about some "out-takes" and alternative mixes and versions on each of the CDs? (such as the Bowie Rykodisc catalog) 3) Fripp has mentioned before about rehearsal tapes of various eras of Crimson - now would be a good time to take various snippets from those tapes and use them as bonus tracks 4) can these CDs be issued at mid-price this time around? since most of us are buying these CDs for the second time around.... that's all I have to say...... Pat Thomas ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:07:13 -0500 From: Murray Kopelberg Subject: re: Level I Guitar Craft course A post from the previous ET: >Hello, >Does anyone know when and where the next Guitar Craft Seminar with Fripp is >? The next Level I Guitar Craft course is scheduled for February, 1998 in Seattle, WA, USA. Persons interested in this course can contact me for details. _____________________________ Murray Kopelberg Guitar Craft North America mkopelbe at students dot wisc dot edu _____________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:09:37 -0700 From: Josh Emery Organization: Emery Distributors Subject: Future remastering of the KC catalog > technology will not cease its development, and in five years will > the technological adavancements that Fripp deems sufficient now be > unsufficient, and in need of yet another enhancement? > Possibly. > Basically, I don't > believe that one, especially not Fripp, can make a decisive and > finite comment on the development of audio technology. Furthermore, I > don't belive that it is purely in the music's best interest that Fripp > wishes to remaster the back catalog. Perhaps there are more personal > motives. And finally, in all fairness, it is not purely my respect for the > music that sets me opposed to Fripp's remastering inclinations. I don't > wish to concede financial exhaustion now, if only to be subsequently > promted by another technological enhancement in several years. > > Who will benefit more from this re-releasement? The listeners or DGM? > I think you are looking at this strictly from the point of view of someone who already owns the entire catalog. What about the people who are currently or will in the future discover King Crimson. They deserve to here cd quality equal to that of the time. There is nothing that upsets me more than buying a cd today and finding out it sounds 10 years old. As long as the catalog is in productions it needs to be kept up with the times. No one says you have to buy the remastered discs, but I'm glad that I will be given the choice. I doubt DGM will benefit from this - I believe Virgin owns the back catalog. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:20:05 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: New KC Digital The TOOTHMAN said..... Granted, audio technology has indeed adanced since the last remastering of the KC catalog, but by no means should Fripp feel that NOW is the right time to update the entire catalog; technology will not cease its development, and in five years will the technological adavancements that Fripp deems sufficient now be unsufficient, and in need of yet another enhancement? Why the hell not? If he believes that current digital technology will allow his work to sound significantly better than it currently does on CD, I think I'd trust his ears a hell of a lot sooner than yours. And the fact is that over the last several years, digital has really kind come into its own, particularly with these resolution-boosting techniques (Sony SBM, HDCD, etc...), as well as very careful control of things such as jitter up and down the whole mastering process. The result are CDs that (at their best) sound really beautiful. For instance, Impulse! has just re-released 'Trane's Giant Steps, and it sounds even better than I remember the vinyl sounding. And as fo that whole "getting us to pay all over again" argument.....huh? Maybe his targeting the new generations of Crimson fans that will be coming on line soon. Why not have an excellent-sounding CD ready for them? Let's face it, to please every one of you Kvechers, Fripp should probably just do nothing at all and stay home! (Though I do hope the sound of Red is enough of an improvement so as to make it worth it laying out some more $$--sorry Brits, I don't have a pound-sign on my keyboard). -Emory ------------------------------ From: "Hickson, Robert [PRI]" Subject: Pat's "straight backbeat" Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:59:58 -0400 A couple of recent posts have referred to Pat Mastelotto's "straight backbeat". I will admit, when I first heard the "new" Crimson on VROOOM, I assumed that the straight ahead rock drumming was Pat, and Mr. Bill was up to his regular irregularities. When I saw the sextet live for the first time (Town Hall, NYC, 11/95?) I was shocked to see (hear) that this was not the case. (note to self: as an audient, resist expectations of your artists) If forced to describe Pat's drumming, I would have to say that he fills in the holes left for him by Bill, perhaps "coloring" things a bit. I suspect that if Pat is playing a "straight backbeat", it's because that's the shape of the holes Bill is leaving. But I also suspect that it works both ways - Bill will fill Pat's holes as well. And it's a reciprocal type of relationship where Pat's fills alter Bill's holes, and vice versa, so before long, they are altering and filling each other's holes. (note to self: buy a thesaurus) Brief editorial: I look forward to Eb's comments. And someone's post about making posts requesting for posts to be off topic off topic? HA! You guys kill me! Keep the laughs a'comin! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 97 13:08:24 -0500 From: "Marc I Roemer" Subject: Boots to trade I recently acquired a copy of _Pleasures in Pieces_, thanks to ET and a fellow ETer. Now I want to trade some more. Here's what I've got: 1. Fripp and Friends live on WFMU, New York City, 1989 or 90. The Friends are the CGT and the Annex. Includes Bach's Prelude in C, Punta Patri, an unnamed Frippertronics piece, Asturias, and others. Excellent sound quality, from the original tape of the broadcast. 2. Crimson, _Indisciple Mining Rocks_, Stoneybrook, NY, 2-28-82. Includes the lost Crimson instrumental discussed severally here, Turkish Tea, and others. From an audience tape. (Based on the liner notes, I always figured Fripp co-conspired with the bootleggers. Shall we thread?) 3. Crimson, Montreal, 7-84. 3oPP tour. Good sound quality. 4. Crimson, Syracuse, 2-25-82. 3 pieces only, including a longer, superior version of the lost instrumental. Audience tape. 5. Fripp & Eno, _Even Spaces_, Paris 5-28-75. Many burning Fripp solos. 6. Crimson, _Doctor D_, Atlanta, 6-23-73. Excellent versions Lark's Pt. I and II, and the full-length version of Doctor Diamond. Wetton's bass is real loud in the mix. Soundboard. I also have the soundpage of Fripp's "Easter Sunday" (1985), which I don't believe is available elsewhere. I'm interested in any rare recordings of Fripp, particularly non-Crimson projects. Obviously, email me privately for details. Marc Roemer marc_i_roemer_at_dsd at ccmail dot census dot gov mir1 at troi dot cc dot rochester dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:16:48 -0700 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: RE: Remasters >4. Bad start-up notes: The opening notes of "Formentera Lady" and the >third movement of "Devil's Triangle" both feature "wow" start-ups. (The >tape is not up to speed when the mastering begins, or the master tape has >been damaged.) I have two vinyl copies of "In the Wake of Poseidon". The one I purchased in late 1973 on Atlantic does not have the "wow" you described. In 1990 I bought a reissue (I believe the label said "Editions EG") in a used record store which DOES have the "wow". In some ways the "wow" makes that particular passage more frightening than before, on the most terrifying piece KC has ever done. Mike Tanigawa ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #423 ********************************