Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #422 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 422 Saturday, 27 September 1997 Today's Topics: Mike Keneally's Tar Tapes and much more! Elephant Talk on IRC Son of Serialism Re: Snipping and Sniping re:draining our pockets... Isle of Wight Kimberly Clark Logo Or King Crimson Logo ELP Back to 417 Bill Bruford Info Remasters Re: Mel Collins on Milli Vanilli album Lots Of Stuff Recognizing Crimson qualities Remasters Prohibited Threads Thank you Mr. Bruford Fripp is a Trip Upcoming Guitar Craft Course with Fripp Availability of the Nightwatch in the U.S.A. Bruford Setup See you at the Jazz Cafe? Standing up for myself. 5-fingered hand of dischord Forthcoming G3 show Prince Crimson Re: Standing up for myself. Definite definite edition I Have Died And Gone To Hell I talk to the wind (Fem. vocal) ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET moderator) Suject: Possible ET delays Hi friends, Just to let you know that we're moving house this week, so there'll be some disruption to my normal activities, including ET. So please bear with me if your next ET is delayed by a few days. Best wishes to all, even to those who think I'm the Moderator From Hell :-) Toby PS Damn! I just realised this post has no KC content! Hoist by my own petard! -------------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:16:58 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Artist Shop News [ Note from Toby: Gary's latest release is quite long, so I've edited it for the Fripp-related content. For the full update, please check Gary's site directly, at www.artist-shop.com ] Hello Friends: And while you're there, you'll also find a listing for a brand new Mike Keneally album called 'Sluggo.' This is slated to be released on October 21, but you can pre-order it now. Mike is going to be hitting the road again with the G3 tour. Those dates are: Friday, September 26--Vancouver, BC, Plaza of Nations Saturday, September 27--Seattle, WA, Mercer Arena=20 Sunday, September 28--Portland, OR, River Queen Showplace=20 Tuesday, September 30--Sacramento, CA, Memorial Auditorium Wednesday, October 1--Las Vegas, NV, The Joint (Hard Rock Hotel/Casino) Thursday, October 2--Universal City, CA, Universal Amphitheatre Friday, October 3--Phoenix, AZ, Blockbuster Desert Sky Pavilion Saturday, October 4--San Diego, CA, Hospitality Point Summer Pops Site=20 Sunday, October 5--Concord, CA, Concord Pavilion=20 Tuesday, October 7--Denver, CO, Mammoth Events Center Thursday, October 9--San Antonio, TX, Lila Cocktail Theatre Friday, October 10--Dallas, TX, Bronco Entertainment Center Saturday, October 11--Memphis, TN, Mud Island Amphitheatre=20 Sunday, October 12--Atlanta, GA, Fox Theatre=20 Tuesday, October 14--St. Petersberg, FL, The Bay Front Auditorium Wednesday, October 15--Orlando, FL, House of Blues Thursday, October 16--Miami, FL, Sunrise Theatre Friday, October 17--Jacksonville, FL, TBA Saturday, October 18--Myrtle Beach, SC, House of Blues=20 Diane at Discipline headquarters in the UK has told me that Robert Fripp is still very much a part of this tour. I'd seen some reports on the 'net that Mike Keneally had joined Fripp during his soundscapes performance on at least one occasion, maybe more. Who knows, maybe it'll happen again? In closing I just want to say what a great time I had last week when I caught Emerson, Lake and Palmer at their Cleveland performance. The band was definitely in top form. I got to talk to Carl Palmer afterwards and it was quite exciting hearing him talk about the band's plans to resurrect Manticore Records and some of the things that could be released as a result. My fingers are crossed. Fellow ELP fans will find the new King Biscuit release at , the Greg Lake autographed special edition King Biscuit at and Keith's Christmas album at . If you get a chance to catch them on this current tour, don't miss it! So, how are things in your town? Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:11:45 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Elephant Talk on IRC In response to the concern that our fearless moderator has perhaps overstepped his bounds, and been too heavy handed by cutting threads in ET too short (to which I say: moderators moderate - deal with it and perhaps they'll moderate in moderation), why doesn't the ET community take some of its chit chat to the more immediate forum of IRC? Now I'm no expert on the matter of IRC channels, but I believe that its pretty simple. You access a server we all agree on (let's say the one the Artist Shop uses: Anothernet), and create a new channel (#ElephantTalk), then set a descriptive topic (/topic #ElephantTalk burble banter about Robert Fripp and King Crimson), et voila! All we need to do is agree on a chat time, perhaps something like 8pm every night (or whatever), just to concentrate things rather than have people show up when no-one else is there. Anyway I throw this out to the masses to think about. If it is something you'd like to do then once we agree on a preliminary chat time we can chat about the rest of the details online and report back to the newsletter. The agreed to details can also be posted at the ET Web site. Perhaps some of the two way "conversations" that we sometimes read in ET can move to the Chat channel. Remember, this wouldn't be to replace discussion in ET, just to suppliment it and provide people with a more immediate means of banter. Dan ET Web ------------------------------ From: "Neal Brown" Subject: Son of Serialism Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:09:42 PDT In reply to Kevin Holm-Hudson's post in 420, I hadn't even thought of serialism and improv--that would be very difficult. When I started the serialism thread a few issues back, I was thinking about the compositions rather than the jams (i.e., the "Dinosaur" and "People" tracks, as opposed to "B'Boom" and "VROOM VROOM"). However, your idea is really intriguing...imagine this: the piece begins with the whole band playing the tone row, and then one instrument (probably bass, although Soundscapes seem perfect for this) keeps playing the tone row, or variations thereof, while the rest of the band jams over that. That would be excruciating to listen to, but that's what Crimso is so good at =) ! (Scary thought of the day....ELP's next project will be turning a wimpy Haydn concerto into an orgasmic serial piece, replete with Hammond-stabbings, dry ice, and a 30-minute drum solo. Sorry, haven't had enough sleep lately.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:23:44 -0400 From: Bayard Brewin Subject: Re: Snipping and Sniping The issue is not diversity of opinion -- this forum has clear and ample examples of dissent and meta critique. The issue for the list is [1] appropriateness of content. An additional recent issue to this reader (and perhaps others) is [2] basic adult deference. [1] For all the calls to community in recent posts, ET -- like most e-fanzines -- is ultimately a personal document. Toby's promulgation of this newsletter -- done with techniques and resources available by definition to every recipient -- has no effect whatsoever on the ability of those recipients (who enjoy it voluntarily and entirely free of charge) to seek and receive information more suited to their needs elsewhere. A criticism for its absence is reasonable, and a welcome guest to any fair discussion. An insistence on its presence is the guest that never leaves. For those seeking to produce such information -- either out of enthusiasm for the topic, or concern about its consideration -- it is solely a matter of personal motivation. Again, by definition, producing an analogous newsletter is well within the range of most readers. If you are frustrated by this forum, and feel you can do better (or at least differently), then by all means rise to the challenge and give it a try -- it could be enormously self-satisfying, and helpful to others. Isn't such individual empowerment supposed to be one of the wonders of the Internet? For one, I would welcome a parallel information track on, say, KC and music theory, or a serious critique of KC-related professional practices. If it were well-presented and methodical, I would consistently return. If it were a vanity spew-forum, I would not. I suspect both would be true for other ETers. I have to believe there would be no serious complaint from our moderator if such a parallel effort arose -- even, for that matter, if it were a critique of ET itself ... a sort of anti-ET. Any comment, Toby? [ No, I would have no complaint at all. But as a confirmed cynic, I think all that would happen is that any parallel forum that started up would soon enjoy the same problems as ET does. Let people talk, and they will certainly talk! I had been reading un-moderated mailing lists for years before I started ET (nee Discipline). And right from the word go I wanted ET to have some structure. And the only way to do that is to have a moderator. And with that comes the inevitabilty of upsetting some people and simultaenously ] pleasing others. I could go on for hours, but I suspect most people have had enough of this thread. :-) -- Toby ] As for calls of "censorship" -- I leave its actual definition up to ET readers in Eastern Europe and Latin America, for whom the posting of frank and critical remarks of the existing order is an entirely contemporary legal freedom won at enormous, sustained, and very personal cost. I should hope intimations of this spectre in their current fiction would better respect the catastrophic human toll paid in this century for its elimination in fact. [2] I fail to understand the Internet "norm" that speech which would be inappropriate when uttered face to face between two emancipated adults is somehow permissible when distributed to several thousand others via publicly funded email. This sadly seems as true for revered and otherwise responsible musical figures as for university undergrads. I hope recent ET postings regarding Great Expectorations and the like are aberrations. The people I meet at King Crimson and associated activities don't strike me as the assaultive type. [For that, we have Gwar. :) ] Yes, occasionally I too find the fawning enthusiasms of some correspondents who seem to be fairly young or socially isolated to be awkward. However, I rather suspect at least a few of us oldsters have our own embarrassing reminiscences about stuff we once did, said, believed. To not accord that privilege to others strikes me as lacking perspective, compassion -- and community. Bayard Brewin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 01:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Onthethree at aol dot com Subject: re:draining our pockets... >Good LORD! Is it time for more posts about greed? >Eb I don't ever recall Mr. Fripp mandating that we buy the CD's again. If you feel obligated to own the most technologically advanced copies of KC albums, you have no one to blame but yourself. -Jon ------------------------------ From: "Marc" Subject: Isle of Wight Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:21:28 +0200 hello guys ! Response to Timothy j. Dichiana (ET#420) about the video of ilse of wight festival. This appreciation on the quality of music is personnal to you, a lot of artist did great stuff to this festival. You said only the Doors and ELP where good on stage, i guess they're two of your favorite bands at this festival ? hum ? So please, don't be so categoric when your heart is involved, because you're not fair. Sometimes, you can't "let the heart decide" (and watch it grow ;-) ) Marc-andre Baca ------------------------------ From: "Van Wey, Alex J" Subject: Kimberly Clark Logo Or King Crimson Logo Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:08:25 -0700 I past by a Kimberly Clark paper mill the other day. I noticed the logo. The logo is dissimilar to King Crimson's logo in two respects. First of all: The Kimberly Clark Logo is vertical while the King Crimson Logo is horizontal. Secondly: The Kimberly Clark Logo is only symmetrical about the vertical axis while the King Crimson Logo is symmetrical about the vertical and horizontal axis as well as it's center... I'm sorry to be so anally trivial, but in one of the ET postings, someone seemed concerned about King Crimson getting sued by Kimberly Clark for using the same logo. Soleil Fou (Alex J Van Wey - Bass/Vocals) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:43:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierron3 at aol dot com Subject: ELP I just saw ELP saturday night..what a show! They're just as vital as ever! They did a medley for their encore consisting of 21st Century Schitzoid Man and America..after the show we met the band and got autographs..I had Greg sign my Epitaph booklet and Keith my Brain Salad Surgery cover..all in all a pretty good evening! Mike Pierron Appleton ETers ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Back to 417 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:00:29 -0400 Get busy, have no time to comment on ET, and in a week or two you're four issues behind. I'm happy to have skipped over the Eb/Artists Shop thing - and happy to see it resolved (to my satisfaction, if not Eb's). And I'm delighted with the Night Watch London reports. (Will there be another in NYC?) In 117 Robert explains "ProjeKct One," and if these side-projeKcts produce more Crimsoid music than would otherwise be the case, I'm all for them. The idea of smaller units within the KC "Double Trio" reminds me a bit of the "small groups" that lurked within the Benny Goodman and Duke Ellington bands (among others) in the late-30's: proof that good ideas can crop up over and over again, when needed. Mary Piscitelli-Umphres (if I have her name right) continues the lyrics thread and prompts me to remark upon Robert Wyatt's early-70's lyrics for Matching Mole and, later, ROCK BOTTOM (MM #3, as originally planned): lyrics which are like a letter to the listener ("but you weren't listening") or to a specific person (Caroline?). They describe where Wyatt is and what he's doing as he writes the lyrics. (One described the song: "This is the bridge...or maybe it's just a key-change....") I found these refreshingly different. Also in 117 "Grantco" bemoans the treatment he feels he's suffered at the hands of fellow ET-ers. I think a large part of your problem is style. You write stuff that looks like a run-on rant, although it may not read that way: the all-lower-case typing and lack of paragraphing is the problem here. Try writing normal, non-affected sentences, Grant. Space a line between paragraphs, and go to a new paragraph every few sentences (3 to 5). Why, if you simply retyped one of your existing contributions in this fashion, I bet it would not only be easier to read, but be received far more warmly. I have friends who write in this same fashion, and wonder why their writing is so often dismissed by others. To me the lack of capitalization is a silly affectation, and I'll bet other ET-ers may feel the same way. In a separate post, Grant offers a really good line: "harry partch's tree fell but how many people really heard it and after hearing wanted to hear it again?" Too true. I became a fan of "strange" music in my teens (long ago), and at that time discovered serialism (to my joy), but after getting into the likes of Varese, Cowell, Antheil, et al, I discovered Partch and found that, bottom line, his music bored me, no matter how "strange" it was. Oh well. I enjoy odd sounds in music, but I want music that communicates with me on an emotional level; this Partch's music never did. In 420 Ken Lacouture's post on "Ownership of Recordings" strikes me as valuable and well-put. I have only a minor nit to pick: "Before 'Sgt Pepper' recordings were commonly considered to be 'documents' of live performances. ... 'Pepper' heralded the concept of the recording itself being the primary art...." Yes and no. Lenny Tristano's 1956 (I think) Atlantic album (his first of 2) used sped-up tapes and overdubs to create sonically unique music - and incurred the wrath of some in jazz to whom this was sacrilege, precisely because it wasn't a document of a live performance. But at the end of the 40's it had already changed, although few realized it. Les Paul invented overdubbing - with 78 rpm disks! At the same time, in France, Schaffer & Henry did the same thing with Musique Concrete. Once tape was easily available as a medium, both adapted it to their purposes. Les Paul had Ampex build him a multi-track recorder - and none of the Les Paul & Mary Ford hits of the early 50's could be played live (but Les faked it for his radio shows with pre-recorded backing tapes). And the "Veil of Orpheus" proved what Musique Concrete could do - with tapes used in a live performance. By the late 50's people like Charles Mingus were using editing and overdubs to build recordings - and his early 60's "Black Saint & The Sinner Lady" (Impulse) is entirely put together in the editing room. In rock, Phil Spector's "wall of sound" was the product of the recording studio (and Jack's arrangements), and it inspired Brian Wilson, whose "Pet Sounds" preceded "Sgt. Pepper" (and inspired it). Once we get to Steve Reich, et al, tape-looping had become integral to the 'performance.' (And I can recall seeing Teo Macero performing, circa 1959, as a solo saxophonist over backing tapes recorded years earlier for his 10" Debut album, allowing him to "overdub" himself over his earlier-recorded sax parts....) So, while I agree with Ken's basic point, I have to point out that this switch from "documentation" to "studio creativity" not only occurred before "Sgt. Pepper," but had been in the wind for well over a decade. --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:05:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Screnci Subject: Bill Bruford Info Patrick, in response to your posting regarding BB's equipment: I didn't post this to ET because I think the bulk of ET'ers are guitarists and we'd have to listen to them complain about boring posts regarding drum equipment. Though talking about drum equipment isn't my favorite topic, I am happy to stimulate more discussion regarding this most under-discussed member of Crimson (on ET anyway). Personally I'll take reading about Bill's Octobans over Robert Fripp's salivary excretions any day. Anyway- Bill used a very unconventional kit during the Discipline - Three of A Perfect Pair Period. At the core was a Tama Superstar Bass Drum (20" I believe), Tama metal snare(sometimes Bell Brass)and a 14" Roto-Tom. In addition he had a set of Octobans and a Gong Bass drum. Paiste metals of course, though I think some antique Zildian crashes may have been used on Discipline. NO Hi Hats! Of course the most radicle component (at the time) were the Simmons. First were the SD5's (Discipline & Beat) and then the upgraded SD7's on TOAPP. On Discipline they are harder to detect.. the energetic rolls at the beginning of Indiscipline come to mind..a percussive onslaught of snare - roto and Simmons. On Beat - a very melodic application during Waiting Man and some more cacophony during Neurotica. During UK and Bruford: bass drum, snare, floor tom and various sized roto-toms. More conventional cymbal use and Gongs. Regarding the LTIA-Red period I don't know the specifics.From listening and Photos he used a standard four piece set supplemented by a concert tom (12") and lots of percussion such gongs, xylophone, sheets of metal etc. One of my favorite sounds is the china on One Red Nightmare. I remember BB once in an article relating that it was and old Paiste with a crack in it. ------------------------------ From: "Z V" Subject: Re: Mel Collins on Milli Vanilli album Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:33:34 PDT Yes it is indeed *that* Mel Collins. And no, I don't think the presence of one ex-Crimsoid on a dance album justifies why people may not like Lizard and Islands, unless those people have some really warped way of deciding whether a piece of music is worthwhile or not .... I think many people do not like Lizard and Islands because they rather stand alone in the Crimson canon and it's a bit hard to see how they can be the method of working that Mr. Fripp distinguishes as what is Crimson and what is not Crimson. I prefer to enjoy them for what they are, and be happy that KC changed, both to them and from them. There is nothing particularly scandalous about what Frank Farian did as far as the whole Milli Vanilli thing, to me. There is a very long tradition in performing of using ringers for the sake of presentation. No one ever seems to think twice when a video gets the lipsync wrong, or, in my favorite example, Eddie Van Halen wiggles his fingers randomly over the synthesizer keyboard, smiling very goofily, in Van Halen's "Jump" video. To me it seems to be fodder for rock journalism combined with rockers' snobbery toward dance music in general that started that whole Milli Vanilli flap ... If you approach what all of that was as an attempt to create a product and to make money, without regard to music, at least initially it was very successful. From what I remember it seems that Frank Farian exposed Milli Vanilli as "frauds" when they threatened to sue him for a higher royalty rate. Seems to me that all the fallout was a result of a powerplay on Farian's part. I imagine it in all honesty is just part of the music business game DGM's trying to get away from. To be honest that sort of thing (a faceless bunch of folks playing on those records) actually intrigued me about dance music, and turned me into a great fan of electronica, because I do love the relative anonymity that the creators of that sort of music have. I'd long admired it in dub. I could not identify the creators of my favorite songs in the past ten years, with very few exceptions (Crimson, of course, and I could identify DB, Paul Oakenfold, Alex Paterson, Terre Thaemlitz, Ani, Towa Tei ...). Of course the music is astonishing in itself, but this aspect is a very welcome bonus. When I first got into King Crimson toward the end of the 73-74 version, I was intrigued initially by the idea that I had no idea who was making this astonishing music, and the records themselves (apart from Islands) didn't even give you so much as a glimpse as to the physical appearance of the group. The same process turned me into a big Residents fan as well. In many ways this anonymity does an awful lot for me as a listener because I end up with nothing to contemplate other than the music itself. It is refreshing to me to have an entire genre of music relatively free of the notion of a "rock press", that focuses on every single aspect known to man other than the actual music itself. Seems to me that the rock press has been so much more happy to write about the last time David Yow pulled his willy out onstage rather than how astonishing a KC blow is. I find most rock journalism to be on the same level as say, the National Enquirer or News Of The World, rather than to be a good entertaining read .... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:16:27 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: Lots Of Stuff Greetings Elephant Talkers, First) I would like to thank all of you who are sharing there account of the Night Watch Playback Event. It is through your Experences that the rest of us are abel to be there. Second) I would like to thank Tony Levin for taking the time to share his side of the Playback, which is very interesting because he is on the other side of this fan stuff. And I think we all appreciate his imput. Thank you Tony. Thirdly) If you all start picking on Adrian you will have to answer to Auntie Gail! Yes, you are allowed and encouraged to have your opinions but really it seems to me (my opinion.that you guys need someone to pick on and since Robt. is out of the running at the moment ,lest he spit,you are now turning to someone else to vent on) What on earth is wrong with Belews pop commercial sensiblities?Not only is he a rather odd but charismatic front man, he is so much fun in concert, and he is a brillant, unique American Artist. Yes, I understand you are saying that you like him better when he plays, is abstact, and not full of Pop , but really can you imagine this vintage KC with out him? What would we do with out the clarity and passion of "One Time" for instance ? The KC vocabulary would be amiss . His lyrics are striking for there simplicity, honesty and are sometime so sincere and beautiful that they bring a tear to my eyes. I have watched him since Bowie, and since those beer soaked days at Navy Peir when he was the Bears and his growth as an Artist should be appladuded , not made to be a wish for something else, some other time. The best thing about Crimso is that every player is integral, tallented and worth his weight in musical gold. Forthly) I am so excited about the G3 show next month I could, and just might have to spin! Fifth) I am surely amiss for calling "Pleasures in Pieces" a RF album because its a bootleg. But it's great anyway, and in fact the only Bootleg I have. Sixth) Also I am sure someone will point out the British Blues connection with KC for me. I didn't feel like looking up the family tree when I posted that. Seventhly) Music is at once an Emotional, Intellectual, Physical and Spiritual pleasure. Music is the art of Being. Eighth) Is it really true that RF sold his black Les Paul ? I thought that I had read that he put in in retirement 'cause it was too valuable to tour with. Also it looks like he plays it on the G3 tour, at least that looks that way on the photos I saw on the Satrani Web page. Nineth) Isn't it wonderful how opinionated and tangenital we all are ? Tenth) Most everyone is behaving better since we got spitted on, much better guys, I am proud of you ! Love and Light, Gail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 06:34:23 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Recognizing Crimson qualities Hi, HO; Enjoyed the last few issues on ET greatly, especially the Night Watch playback posts...can't wait for the U.S.A release of this. The title NIGHT WATCH...TINGLES to me as I listen to it from the GD box set.Can't wait. Night Watch was the first KC song I fell in love with. Also the new ET web page is very cool...love it! I hope all involved get some kind of tax break or some sort of write off for there efforts... Well checking out the new web sight and posting a few reviews I notice I had,IMHO,the quality of knowing Crimson Music. For example from GGF; Erudite Eyes and Exposure;Breathless. I know there is others, but these two come to mind. Do you agree or am I full of poop? Still notice a lot of educator on ET, this interests me. Good idea? Video tape these play backs for us rapid fans? Stephanie how was band camp? Mike and Trisha had a baby girl...Nicol! Warmly, Joe Basile ------------------------------ From: sparker at iphase dot com (Steve Parker) Subject: Remasters Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:51:29 -0500 (CDT) Some months ago, I began writing a piece that dissected the so-called "Definitive Edition" remasters, with particular attention paid to the many flaws in the first 4 titles, which I intended to post here. I corresponded with some fellow ET-ers to gain some outside perspectives, and to make certain I wasn't the only one hearing these "problems". Regrettably, my critique got wiped out around 3/4 complete due to a system error. I contemplated rewriting it, but a recent comment from boppin' Bobby hinted that another remastering might be imminent, so I held off. Last week, we learned that KC's back catalog will indeed be remastered to bring it up to current standards of technology. I went home that day quite happy, but after some weekend contemplation, I feel that it is more important now than ever that I voice my concerns, particularly since some of the flaws I detect seem to have passed unnoticed (or unmentioned) by my fellow Crimheads, or by Fripp in his notes within the 'Frame By Frame' booklet. The flaws I speak of do not exist (at least, not that I can detect) in any prior vinyl or CD releases of these titles, except where noted, so I'm left to assume that they are a result of the remastering by Fripp & Tony Arnold for the DE's. 1. Bass distortion - present in mostly the left channel of ITCOTCK, Lizard, and Islands. I cannot fathom how this went undetected by either man's ears. It's horrible, reducing the bass guitar to a fuzzy, muddled mess. Compare Greg Lake's mighty bass tone on "Epitaph" from the original LP to that on the DE cd and you'll hear what I mean. The distortion is clearly evident in passages where the bass plays alone, or nearly (1st verse of "Epitaph"; just after the opening cymbal taps of "Sailor's Tale"; throughout "Formentera Lady"; the bass cadence in "Prince Rupert's Lament"). The same distortion is on the featured songs from those records found on the 'Frame By Frame' box set, EXCEPT where Fripp remixed, so at least we know the problems are not with the original multitrack masters. 2. "Squashed" sound- ITCOTCK sounds extremely compressed, making the album's original huge sound rather small by comparison. Again, whip out your original vinyl (if you've got one in good condition), and you'll hear the difference. Makes one wonder if they really used the original master tape. 3. Rolled off highs - Peculiar to ITWOP. "Cadence and Cascade", "ITWOP", and "Peace - A Theme" all have the high frequencies (again, left channel) extremely flattened, making the acoustic guitar and cymbals very dull sounding. A listen to the original CD release reveals quite a lot of tape hiss in this channel, but I'd prefer the hiss to the dead guitar/cymbal sound. I will only listen to the original CD or LP for these tunes. 4. Bad start-up notes: The opening notes of "Formentera Lady" and the third movement of "Devil's Triangle" both feature "wow" start-ups. (The tape is not up to speed when the mastering begins, or the master tape has been damaged.) The opening double bass note to FL "slides" in; I've never heard this before, despite the many sonic problems that have plagued this release through the years. The bad start-up note on the mellotron from the 3rd movement of DT first appeared on the JEM vinyl half-speed reissues, but is not present on the original Island/Atlantic Records LPs. This would seem to suggest that the original master tape was not used for the Definitive Edition CD. 5. Inadequate volume levels - ITWOP - "Peace - A Beginning" and the first minute or so of "Devil's Triangle" are so quiet as to be inaudible at normal volume (and "normal" for me is pretty loud!). I compared these levels to that of the original LP and CD and they are much softer. I will allow that the original releases may have been "fixed" in the mastering process, and these could be the original mixdown levels. Still, my gut feeling is that the original master was not used for the DE. 6. Missing bits: Well documented here in ET. The orchestra rehearsal coda to Islands, and BB's comment at the end of LTIA pt. II. I really have no complaints about any of the subsequent titles, though if others do, this might be the best time to air them. We can only hope that Fripp is listening. Steve ------------------------------ From: djdowling at earthlink dot net Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:02:19 -0400 Subject: Prohibited Threads I recently wrote with regard to "Home Frippertronics" and posed several questions about equipment and such. Many of you responded directly to me (thanks all) and others posted to ET (thanks again). Toby used both of these methods to refer me and others to Loopers Delight, where we might continue our discussion of Fripp-like playing. His concern was to keep ET "less musician-y and more music-y"(I quote from memory). I'm not entirely sure how this distinction is made. Crimson writes and plays music: Thus- to discuss Crimson we discuss writing and playing music. I understand the concern of ET becoming an inpenetrable forum for music theorists (I being a self taught musician) but the notion that the a discussion of the techniques employed by the musicians in writing and performance is somehow less valid than whether or not "Fripp likes Sylvian" is beyond me. This is not an aTtaCk on Toby, but based on the responses of other ET-ers I hope that the newsletter can remain a place where musicians and music can indeed be the subject matter. Dave D [ No offence taken, Dave, my skin is getting thicker by the second :-) -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:34:43 +0200 Subject: Thank you Mr. Bruford From: Wolfgang Armbruster Organization: Schroeder Edition Dachtel I received my copy of "If Summer Had It's Ghosts" yesterday. And after the first scan through the disc I just wanted to say "Thanks for a great recording Mr. Bruford!!" This music had to be recorded... - - - - - - - - - - Wolfgang Armbruster wolffsed at Calw dot netsurf dot de ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: John Toothman Subject: Fripp is a Trip What does Fripp mean when he states that audio technology has progressed sufficiently enough since the Definitive Remasters? Truthfully, these weren't Fripp's words, but actually what an ET'er wrote in ET 419 regarding upcoming projects (Not to be confused with PROJEkTS). But seriously, Fripp, as much as any other musician today, should know that when technology advances in a particular direction, it does not cease to progress in that direction in favor of another. Granted, audio technology has indeed adanced since the last remastering of the KC catalog, but by no means should Fripp feel that NOW is the right time to update the entire catalog; technology will not cease its development, and in five years will the technological adavancements that Fripp deems sufficient now be unsufficient, and in need of yet another enhancement? Basically, I don't believe that one, especially not Fripp, can make a decisive and finite comment on the development of audio technology. Furthermore, I don't belive that it is purely in the music's best interest that Fripp wishes to remaster the back catalog. Perhaps there are more personal motives. And finally, in all fairness, it is not purely my respect for the music that sets me opposed to Fripp's remastering inclinations. I don't wish to concede financial exhaustion now, if only to be subsequently promted by another technological enhancement in several years. Who will benefit more from this re-releasement? The listeners or DGM? ------------------------------ From: "Export Department" Subject: Upcoming Guitar Craft Course with Fripp Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:30:51 -0500 Hello, Does anyone know when and where the next Guitar Craft Seminar with Fripp is ? Please either post to ET or myself directly at Liteshu at aol dot com Thank you ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:52:27 -0400 From: Novartis Employee Subject: Availability of the Nightwatch in the U.S.A. Greetings! In answer to the question of when the Nightwatch will be available in the USA, I checked with the owner of my favorite music store. According to a distributor's newsletter, it will be available roughly around November 4 1997. I too am anxious to add it to my collection of KC recordings and anticipate that with new technology it will sound better than The Great Deciever which has excellent sound quality of its own. Rob Brown ------------------------------ From: "Mr Sexappeal" Subject: Bruford Setup Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:34:06 PDT Hi I'm a drummer, (big fan of Bruford) (of course). And I wonder if anyone has a drum setup over brufords set, I've seen a lot of photos but not a tecnical readout. And the same about Pat Mastelotto. I've followd him from his early sessions via Mr Mister and now to The Double Trio, so if anyone has a setup over his drum i'd like to know. Gozinbulks on you all. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:39:43 -0400 From: alan s cohen Subject: See you at the Jazz Cafe? Hi all. I'm writing because I'm going to be in England (from the U.S.) for the ProjeKct One concerts (who's an excited boy, then?), and thought that maybe I could meet with some of the local ETers. You can email replys to ET. Just kidding, Toby. My email adress is (hold onto something) "I000371 at disch3 dot disc dot dla dot mil". It's a work computer. By the way, does anyone know if tickets to the Soundscapes concert are being sold in advance? I have no idea how to get a ticket to this one, and as long as I'm in the neighbourhood, I may as well catch it. Be seeing you. Alan *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000371 sends (alan cohen)... ------------------------------ From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Standing up for myself. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:29:06 -0400 Hi. I'm a bit behind on my Elephant Talk list, so sorry if this is late or after the fact. Daniel Farris had a comment to ET feeling how its conversation is maybe confined too tightly. He may be right. However, at the risk of utter pointlessness, I want to say a word on this. Let me also make clear that I am not involved in ET moderation or web-site. I'm just a reader and poster. Daniel, you said: >With all due respect to the ET staff and their immense >time and effort, >I must reluctantly agree. In the eight short weeks I've >been on this >list we've managed to eliminate tangiential discussions >of both music >theory and recording technology- two concepts, of which >discussions are >both appropriate and unavoidable when discussing >Crimson, and someone >else offered that the Loop Music Discussion List might >help make ET >'less musician-y'. This pretty much leaves a.) constant >banal repetitive >gushing about KC records and bootlegs, b.) highly >subjective comparisons >between KC and other bands, and c.) a place to share >tour dates. OK. I've been reading this ET thing for over two years now. Daniel, trust me, there have been many imaginative conversations beyond the three you mention. My memory isn't perfect but I remember many occasions when diverse topics have "flared-up." This is good and natural. Some that come to mind include: My first Crimson experience The youngest crimson fan Women like / don't like crimson Adrian is good/no good Punk vs. Prog. The Tingles Prog Lyrics are embarrassing Yes is good/bad The Role of the Audience & The Role of The Musician (special issues on that one) Who is Phillip Glass? Bootlegging - special issues on that too Touring w/HORDE is good/bad My favorite Crimson Fripp's 'tude Analogue vs. Digital Etc. etc And in the last year we've seen posts from Robert, Adrian, Tony and Trey. Daniel, you make another point. >In other words, anything of substance already has its >own discussion >group and is therefore not welcome here. Is it not >enough that we all >supposedly share a keen interest in KC and Fripp? Can >this list not be >useful for that reason alone? Must every word be in >reference to KC and >Fripp? (apparently not) Are subsequent tangents >inspired by discussions >of KC and RF not acceptable? This happens in 'real' >conversation >regularly Check out the above listing of topics. There are many other topics I've surely forgot. I think you're making a judgement about something a little too quickly. In two months, there is about enough time for one or two topics to take hold and get washed through. These things have cycles. Give it a chance. To the extent that Daniel's reaction stems from my post a few ET's ago (http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/count.pl?417), I would also like to say something. >STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP >For those readers of Elephant Talk interested in creating >Frippertronics >and Soundscapes like music, there are excellent resources about the >tools >and the players all just a short web-link away at LOOPERS DELIGHT: >http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html. >The site -- like ET -- is also home for a net-mailing-list (digests >every >few days contain 10-12 posts), archives of postings, links to Looping >Music. And I quote: >"Looper's Delight is a cultural and informational resource for >musicians >creating with audio loops of every sort. Loop based music essentially >involves the repetition of audio samples, or loops. From that basic >premise looping moves off in numerous directions, encompassing a wide >range of techniques for building, manipulating, and using loops. The >technique crosses many musical boundaries and appears in a wide range of >musical styles and genres." >PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE >You may want to ask your questions about looping tools and practices to >this very helpful and friendly community. That leaves ET to be a >little less "musician-y" and a little more "music-y." >THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS THANKS What I'd like to say is this -- given the large number of musicians reading ET, my intention was to help *increase readership of Looper-Delight*, where there are some really interesting people with real insight on looping-based music. My intention was to INVITE people to talk about looping in Loopers-Delight. As it turned out, I actually felt a bit silly as quite a few other people had already posted about Loopers-Delight by the time mine arrived... Secondly, yes, I was afraid ET could end up in a gearhead conversation about rack-mount equipment and set-ups. And given my own words (above) -- if that was a motivator -- I should have just let it happen and skip over those posts not interesting to me. So I learn here too. However, that was *not* my only motive. But, if my post did actually spur Daniel to write-in to ET about "feeling unwelcome," and if it was because he is interested in Looping topics, then let me ask this: Daniel, did you check out the Looper site? Did you join the e-mail list? David Kirkdorffer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 05:55:24 UT From: "Jonathan Korein" Subject: 5-fingered hand of dischord Maybe you guys already heard about this. Awhile ago my friend Colin (WrongWayCM at aol dot com) told me that he showed the Thrak logo to someone who told him that it was the "Five Fingered Hand of Discord". The guy shows Colin a book with a picture, and what do you know, The Thrak logo bears a striking resemblance. Coincidence or connection? Crimson music is discordant, that is for sure. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:42:43 -0700 (PDT) From: relph at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com (John Relph) Subject: Forthcoming G3 show Greetings, Are any ETers from the San Francisco area planning on attending the October 5 G3 show in Concord? I am, and would like to either meet y'all at the show, or perhaps even carpool from The City. E-mail me personally at . -- John ------------------------------ From: Arthur Thomas Andrews IV Subject: Prince Crimson Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 02:34:26 -0400 () Wow. I just finished listening to disk two of The Great Deceiver. Great stuff, Robert is in top form. Anyway, I'm just 19 yrs old and by the time I got into Crimson, they had already finished their Thrakattack tour! So I'm wondering about ETers live KC experiences from the 70's. -Art ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 04:59:12 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: Re: Standing up for myself. This is my final post on this irrelevant topic. David Kirkdorffer wrote: > OK. I've been reading this ET thing for over two years now. Daniel, > trust me, there have been many imaginative conversations beyond the > three you mention. My memory isn't perfect but I remember many > occasions when diverse topics have "flared-up." This is good and > natural. Some that come to mind include: > The Role of the Audience & The Role of The Musician (special issues on > that one) > Women like / don't like crimson > Bootlegging - special issues on that too These three are interesting topics. I'm sorry to have missed them; I have a lot to contribute on these. > In two months, there is about enough time for one > or two topics to take hold and get washed through. There does, however, seem to be time to eliminate a few potentially compelling ones. > Secondly, yes, I was afraid ET could end up in a gearhead conversation > about rack-mount equipment and set-ups. > But, if my post did actually spur Daniel to write-in to ET about > "feeling unwelcome," and if it was because he is interested in Looping > topics, then let me ask this: Daniel, did you check out the Looper site? > Did you join the e-mail list? I did neither, because loop music is only a very small part of what I do. I feel that I know all I care to know about making loop music. I also don't have much to share on the topic. My knowledge and experience on the subject far outweighs my interest in it. However, an ET reader posted a query about the Frippertronics setup and I simply posted what I could remember on the subject. In my opinion, it doesn't get much more relevant than questions about Frippertronics, and it seems to me that discussions about Philip Glass (ugh!) (not to mention 'punk v. prog' or any topic which includes the word 'prog') is definitely teetering on the edge of irrelevant. I am simply noting that it seems that less accessible topics which are Fripp/Crimson related are being passed over in favor of more accessible, yet completely irrelevant topics. It was not my intention to continue discussing loop music or gear. Nor was it my intention to continue discussing 'analogue v. digital' following my first and only response to the postings of yet another ET reader. However, on both occasions someone made mention of these topics being inappropriate. If these topics are not appropriate to this list, the original posts to which I responded should never have made it to the list at all. I personally don't care for moderated discussions (much less ones where the moderation is fickle), but in the absence of intelligent people who are capable of limiting their own conversations to that which is relevant and appropriate, it is apparently a necesary evil. Not that ET readers aren't intelligent and capable, but if we all were, moderation would be redundant. Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham AL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:40:42 +0200 From: hecker Subject: Definite definite edition I=92m really puzzled about all these recent postings saying, essentially:= =84Oh, how bad that we have to put out money again for this upcoming remastered CDs from the King Crimson back catalogue". This attitude seems to be completely inconsistent. Either, I may not be overly concerned about learning how much digital remastering technique has progressed between 1989 and 1998. Then I won=92t buy it. However, if I DO care, maybe for the sake of collector=92s perfection or whatever, then it should follow by definition that this should be worth my money. So, I=92m asking, what problem do these folks have??? Ulrich von Hecker *-------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Ulrich von Hecker Universitaet Potsdam Institut fuer Psychologie Abteilung Sozialpsychologie Tel.: 0331/977-2954; Fax: 0331/977-2795 email: hecker at rz dot uni-potsdam dot de hecker at zedat dot fu-berlin dot de *-------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 23:26:03 -0400 Subject: I Have Died And Gone To Hell I was watching Millennium on Friday when during a commercial break I noticed some familiar sounds in the background music of a Microsoft commercial. It was David Bowie's Heros, with Mr Fripp jamming along. ARRGGHH!. On a ligher note I saw the Indigo Girls recently and was pleasently suprised to see Sarah Lee (ex-Gang of Four, ex-League of Gentlemen) and Jerry Marota (Gabriel-Levin, Fripp, etc) joing them on stage. Les B. Labbauf "It's always better to regret something you have done then to regret something you haven't done!" - Anonymous "There may be a legal obligation to obey, but there will be no moral obligation to obey. When it comes to history it will be the people that break the law for freedom who will be remembered and honored." Tony Benn, Labour MP "Beautiful!...magnificent desolation!" Buzz Aldrin "Something Unknown Is Doing Something We Don't Know What." Sir Arthur Eddington "What Me Worry?" Alfred E. Newman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:28:00 -0700 From: "Dominick_J_DePaolo" Subject: I talk to the wind (Fem. vocal) My name is Dominick, I live in Concord,N.H. and as far as I know I'm probably the only King Crimson fan in the area. I have an empty slot in my King Crimson library. Is there anybody know how or where to get a copy of the version of "I talk to the wind" with the female vocalist, which originally appeared on "The Young Persons Guide to King Crimson"? Since that title is out of print now, this version has disappeared into oblivion. I would appreciate any info anyone would have. Thank you, D.J.D. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #422 ********************************