Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #421 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 421 Saturday, 27 September 1997 Today's Topics: New ET Logo Re: What does it mean? A THANK YOU MESSAGE TO MR. R. FRIPP Reply to Farris & Eb on Moderation Indiscipline Isle of Wight Festival 70-90 again enough of the damn tingles apocalypse when brufords solo album Trower Re: The lady or the tiger? ET Posting Found Audio... abandoned? Conflicted? Re: Cutting threads Re: The Isle of Wight Festival The topic of off-topic Improv, bootlegs, sitting in the dark, yadda, yadda, yadda... The Artist Shop DAX? Re: Doctor Diamond No Weasels at the Artist Shop Warning: no Spice Girls content Fripp posts King Crimson in Brazil ? Chicago is waiting ...and needing a change Bruford's compositions and setup(s) New Bruford Album???? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:43:54 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: New ET Logo ETers, ET Web now has a new logo and a slightly new (and hopefully improved) look - check it out. A big thank you goes out to Tim Ryan for the logo, and also to the others that submitted one. I hope to find ways to use some of the others we received in the future. In ET #419 I asked for people to hold of on sending in reviews to ET Web until I had time to get through the backlog. Let me clarify that: hold off on sending reviews about KC or RF releases that would be added to the Releases pages. All other submissions are welcome. Also in ET #419 Matt Walsh wondered what the album cover sandwiched between "Islands" and "SSEDD" was in the ET cover collage. Its "The Young Person's Guide to King Crimson" cover. To make that clearer I've "image mapped" the graphic to take you to the corresponding releases page for each album. However I don't have one for YPG. So I'll be adding one in the future. Finally, a warning. DGM has asked that I remove all of Robert Fripp's copyrighted articles, with the intend that they would rehost them eventually at the new DGM web site. I intend to do so in short order, but they likely won't reappear on their site immediately. So if you had intended to read any, do so while they're still available. After DGM has established them on their site I will include a direct link to them there. Thanks for you attention. Rock on! Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:44:27 +0200 From: Roger Espel Llima Subject: Re: What does it mean? > There have been a few posts lately denigrating the work of those who > would use this newsletter as a forum for "metaphysical", "religious", > "new-age", or"philosophical" discussions, "tangential" to Fripp/KC music. I don't think that is exactly the problem. Discussions about philosophical questions *as they relate* to King Crimson, Fripp &co and their music, are obviously enough on topic. The only denigrating posts I've seen were in answers to posts that were basically lecturing us on "obscure" or "esoteric" topics, with long explanations about how these things were "not to be taken lightly", and close to zero Krimso relevance. Those that actually take those things seriously will not find anything wrong with that, but to those of us that consider these 'fields' as complete balderdash it's obvious enough that they don't belong in ET. (and neither does further discussion on whether it's balderdash or not, for that matter). As for "new-age", I've yet to see *any* connection between KC and new-age. > Related to these, I believe, are the complaints of those who dislike > the copious liner notes included in Fripp/KC releases (which the listeners > are free to ignore). I don't have any problem with Fripp's lengthy liner notes, I always read them avidly before listening to the CD. And I find it fine that he keeps including his standard rant about music publishing and the industry, because he has a strong opinion that's more than worth repeating. > It seems we have a conflict between the thinkers and the feelers > here. or between those that have the time and feel like wading through much irrelevant junk to get to the krimso-related posts, and those who don't. > Fripp would say that "What we do is inseperable from how and why we do > it." It seems clear to me that making music for him is not merely an > exercise in tickling your eardrums, or nailing them to the wall. Music is > being thought of and used (and using these performers) as a language with > meaning, and as such has claims to make on our entire beings, not just the > ears. that's probably why Fripp's music actually works. > I am a little surprised that fans who purchase and listen to records > and songs like "Epitaph", "1999", "The First Day", and "The Gates of > Paradise" would prefer to bang their heads and restrict conversation to > tablatures and tingles (Worthy topics, don't get me wrong) when the > question of meaning (F- the relationship between performer and audience is > truth) seems so central to the appreciation of this music, and, as > evidenced by the discussion in this newsletter, when there are such diverse > responses to this question among the listeners. are you sure it's to *those* things that people are objecting? There is quite a bit of talk about the audience vs. the performers, with points of view from both sides, and it's very interesting. I see that the ET administration is doing a great job -- letting threads go on until the important things have been said and posts start repeating themselves and each other. -- Roger Espel Llima espel at llaic dot univ-bpclermont dot fr, espel at unix dot bigots dot org http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html ------------------------------ From: roberto dot savastano%platinum dot com at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:34:09 +0200 Subject: A THANK YOU MESSAGE TO MR. R. FRIPP Sir (actually when I think of you playing your guitar -either on any entertainment media or live on stage- I can't dare use a more friendly "Robert" or "Bob"), I had the opportunity of reading a few e-mails, newspaper articles, interviews and so on, of loads of fellow experts (at least self proclaiming so) aiming to set a sort of state of the art as far as writing music or performing is concerned. Amusing. Many enthusiastically hail your music as the fruit of pure talent and genius, others try and mock it as a boring waste of time, although I don't understand the latter group, everybody has the option of non listening to what they loath. I have to say that albeit I am neither a musician nor a performer -the only thing I can have to play is my stereo equipment- I do not understand why many people keep on comparing your music to others' like The Yes or ELP, just to mention two. To me, besides a sheer matter of personal taste, which I would never argue about, comparing King Crimson to others such as Peter Gabriel or Philip Glass for instance, is like comparing an apple to a fish only because you can eat them both. However I am not writing this e-mail to prove that I can be a true master of the obvious, the reason why I am writing this is (as the e-mail subject suggests) just to thank Mr. Robert Fripp for a very easy thing. I was 14 (bloody awful ages ago) at a friend of mine's who put "In the Court of the Crimson King" on. That was the first time I heard something of the crimson monarch. Truly throwing indeed. All this to say that I really don't know whether I am right or wrong to hail Mr. Fripp's music as pure genius and talent, nor I know whether -in absolute terms- Mr. Fripp is a top of the range musician or a smart business man or both; honestly I do not bother at all. Of course it wouldn't even dawn on me to suggest what is acceptable and what is not. To me the whole point is that much of Mr. Fripp's music made me very much emotional. This feeling is so good, that I always have felt, since that very first time, like saying "thanks Rob" for all that good your music very often score of significant moments of my life. Sometimes your music was not even on but it was just playing in my mind. Indeed helping people to dream is a great achievement sir, and I want to express all my appreciation for this. Cheers ROB Milan, Italy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 09:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Reply to Farris & Eb on Moderation In ET 419 Daniel Farris seconded Eb's complaints about "excessive" moderation of ET. Mr. Farris said he had been subscribing to Elephant Talk for eight weeks. I think he is being a bit hasty in his judgment. I've been subscribing to ET for over four years, and there are many on this list who have been with ET back when it was called Discipline. In my view (and I think other "long-timers" would agree) the benefits of Toby's moderation far outweigh the costs. One only look to other rock discussion groups (e.g., Marillion's "Freaks" list) to see how banal, flamish, and poor unmoderated discussion groups can be. As far as I know, Toby never deletes KC/Fripp-related posts that bring up a new topic. Thus, over the past year or so we've had some discussion of, for example, "radiotronics" and "home-frippertronics" and the like. As a non-guitarist, it is interesting to know that these things go on, and it is interesting to know a little bit about them. But after a while the topic either a) gets stale or b) becomes too technical and/or boring for those not interested . But before the topic has been declared off limits everyone on the list has been made aware of it, and there is usually an indication of where the interested parties can go to discuss this specialized thread. That is just one example. How about the semi-annual post "What does Thela Hun Ginjeet mean?" Aren't we all glad that THAT topic is off-limits? Everyone likes to see their opinions and anecdotes in print (myself included). In a small and only slightly unfortunate way, not everyone else wants to see them. Moderation balances these interests. Its absence would be our loss. Thanks Toby & team for this great forum. Justin Weinberg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:10:41 -0400 From: Paul Kosens Subject: Indiscipline I think indiscipline is the "hardest" song to come out of the 80's KC. Unfortunately, I don't care for the way this song is performed live. The ominous sounding drum & bass lines that gradually build up the tension on the album are "jazzed up" for the live version. I'm sure Bruford likes playing it this way, given his jazz background, but this has the effect of significantly softening the song, and removing it's hard edge. If and when King Crimson plays Lollapalooza, I wish they would play this song more like it was originally recorded. Of course, i'd REALLY like to see Henry Rollins guesting on vocals for this one. Now that would be truly awesome. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 11:05:56 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Isle of Wight Festival In #420, Tim DiChiara mentioned the film about the Isle of Wight Festival and said the music (except for Doors & Moodies) was uniformly bad. I just wanted to say that I saw the film also and really liked almost all of the music. Potential viewers should be warned, however, that a major goal of the filmmakers was to contrast this excellent music with the worst footage they could find of obnoxious promoters, addled fans, etc. It was interesting, but I can't imagine wanting to sit through all that unpleasantness more than once, which is a shame because the musical sequences would be worth seeing repeatedly. -- Chris J. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:14:31 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: 70-90 again >In a response to the 70's vs. >90's Crimson appeal to younger hip audiences I see 2 ways of looking at >it. one is that with Pat Mastelotto playing a straighter backbeat >through 90's music that may put the new band in favor of the old. >However in the oposite direction I think the 70's era band put across >the bleak depressive atmosphere better than the 90's version. This I definitely agree with. As much as I like the new KC, their new stuff doesn't have the same impending-doom-of-the-coming-apocalypse quality that I liked in the 70's. Which brings me to a question. Does anyone know if RF's views have changed regarding the end of the world? I mention this in light of John Wetton mentioning that RF disbanded crimso in the 70's because he felt the world was coming to an end. I wonder if a change inthat belief brought about a change in the music. >personally don't want to hear Belew's quirky and humerous popness that >the 90's stuff sometimes has. The feel of 70's Crimson was somehow more >"real" to me. I think primarily due to the Belew factor I often find >myself enjoying Fripp's non- >crimson music more (r.f.string quintet, Guitar Craft, even 10 seconds) This, on the other hand, I don't agree with so strongly. Granted, the quirky pop mannerisms of Elephant Talk grate after enough listenings....but Walking on Air, and One Time, I think are really good songs, and not overly quirky, with some very nice atmospheric effects. I still do miss the apocalyptic doom-laden sounds of the 70's beast....so I am quite looking forward to "The Night Watch" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:22:27 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: enough of the damn tingles talk about a thread out of control! I have to wonder if many of these posters even know what was originally being discussed as tingles in the first place! I have to say that as a music listener, I don't come across tingles very often. When I say tingle, I literally mean a PHYSICAL sensation with no apparent physical cause, rather caused (particularly by a key change (such as minor to major)) in music. When somenone says that all work by a particular artist gives them tingles, I have to assume they have no idea what was meant by tingles in the first place. We were originally discussing an infrequently occuring phenomenon, rare enough that we were surprised to find it being consistent in a few different people. I can tell you, RED (the song) has no tingle spots. Okie dokie? Can we let this damn thread die please? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:26:07 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: apocalypse when >That was the impression I received from where the music took >me. And Exposure backs it up particuraly with the placement of Here Come >The Flood, and Mr. Bennetts excerpts. I agree about Exposure. Until I heard Here Comes the Flood juxtaposed with Bennetts quote about the coming disaster, I didn't really know what the song was about. I wonder if PG and RF still feel this way? Anyone know? [ I think I read somewhere that the "flood" one would experience if you could suddendly read everyone's mind. Or something like that. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:28:11 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: brufords solo album "If Summer has it's Ghosts" anyone have a track listing? I have a promo copy with no liner notes at all. e-mail me if you do. thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:54:04 +0100 From: fsteama at dircon dot co dot uk (Mike Goode) Subject: Trower Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but... apparently the new CD re-issues of Robin Trower have enthusisatic sleeve notes by Robert Fripp. This can't be true can it? Tho' I quite like Trower, I can't figure out the Fripp connection... unless of course he's a fan. Imagine the cosy scene -- Toyah happily knitting another pedal-warmer for Robert, while our man struts and plays air guitar (with suitable facila expressions if I recall) to Long Misty Days.... Naaah, this can't be right. Can it? Mike. ------------------------------ From: "Johannes Persson-Burstr\vm" Subject: Re: The lady or the tiger? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:04:57 PDT >Browsing my old vinyl, I found a copy of that strange LP named "The >lady or >the tiger?" and signed by Toyah & Fripp. I have to say that in the >many >years since I bought it, maybe I have listened to it no more that >five or >six times. Does anybody know about it? Any commentary? >Suso Navarrete This is a really interesting and very good record. I bought it half a year ago, but I didn't listen to it for some weeks. When I at last decided to listen to the first side, I got really confused. Not only because the quite weird sounds created by mr Fripp, or the rather complex but beautiful stream of words read by Toyah Willcox. What confused me even more was the text written by Frank R Stockton, which I think must be some traditional tale, or at least it sounds like one. On side B the story is continued, this time accompanied by The League of Crafty Guitarists. I tried to tell the stories to some friends, and the whole thing ended up in a great collective frustration, since both stories ends with a question, rather trivial but annoyingly impossible to answer. I've found that you can listen to this record in a lot of ways. Either you can be focusing on just the meaning of the words trying to understand and answer the questions asked, or you can ignore them totally and just listen to the "soundscape" created by the voice and the guitar. In some few holy moments you may even do some of both. One thing is at least certain: Great record. A excellent way to end an otherwise exhausting day. Johannes Persson-Burstrom ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 97 14:27:52 -0500 From: "Gerard York" Subject: ET Posting Hi! My name is Gerry York. I am an attorney in Tallahassee, Florida. I would love to meet other King Crimson fans in the area. I've seen KC in 1974 in Miami and 1995 in Orlando. At the 1974 show, Fripp signed my jacket of S&BB "Legs Quigley," but I survived and had an otherwise normal childhood. I can be reached at (850) 577-0494. Also, if you are in the Ocala/Gainesville area of Florida, you should call my offline friend David Lynn at (352) 351-3110. David's a one-stop source on King Crimson, Henry Cow, Mothers of Invention, and other progressive groups. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) From: caseyd Subject: Found Audio... abandoned? Conflicted? The recent postings of a poor soul seeking digital versions of the "original" League of Gentleman, et al, has prompted me to wonder about the saddening lack of the found audio on later releases. I have always enjoyed the spontaneity, joy and initial surprise of those voice scraps. I feel the original vinal versions stand quite strong due to their inclusion. However, given that Mister Fripp has had hell to pay with his various labels over the years...issues of ownership and royalties as I have gathered... I wonder if the exclusion of that audio was due to those issues. Or if they were purely (ha!) aesthetic decisions. *------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Casey Dunn * TechOblique, Inc. * 229 Polaris Ave, Suite 15 * Mt.View Ca. 94043 *------------------------------------------------------------------------------ vox:415.961.2686 fax:415.961.2694 web:www.techoblique.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: Cutting threads I don't want to take a lot of space up about this, but there are something people must be aware of about the "clearing" of threads on ET: 1) There are people who pay for their internet service, and take a lot of time to sift through ET, and if there are 300 threads debating sound quality of LPs and CDs, many people will be turned off by having to waste bandwidth to get the newsletter 2) There are some topics which a) can't be really settled since both sides are too firmly entrenched in their positions, or b) can be talked out to the point of having nothing to say In cases like #2, it leads to things like #1. This is what Toby is trying to prevent from happening. If you want to discuss these things with people without wasting bandwidth on people who just want to find out about new releases, upcoming info/tours/etc., perhaps newsgroups like rec.music.progressive are where you want to go. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:20:38 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: The Isle of Wight Festival On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 "Timothy J. DiChiara" wrote: >Of semi-peripheral interest to KC and progressive music enthusiasts... > >I just saw "A Message to Love: The Isle of Wight Festival, 1970", which >has been newly released on video (here in the US). I highly recommend it >as a fascinating historical document of the time, NOT as a shining >example of quality music. With the exception of powerful performances by >the Doors and the Moody Blues (unexpected!), the music was uniformly bad. >The worst, by far, was ELP--they packed all the worst cliches about >rock-and-roll, progressive music, and the '70s into one concentrated >pellet of bombast. Terrible! (This from an old ELP fan...) Well, the ELP website is offering a recording of the entire Isle of Wight concert, their first live appearance. >Anyone out there go to the festival in person? I'd love to hear your >experiences (via private email, of course). Believe it or not, there IS an Isle of Wight website: http://www.iowrock.demon.co.uk I had inquired on rec.music.progressive about who played the IoW show, and was sent to this site. It has info on all three of the IoW shows from 68-70. Check it out when you have the chance. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:08:54 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: The topic of off-topic In 419, Mike Dickson reports that at the Night Watch playback: >> (Some curious >> individual offered his shoe for signature. I'm not quite sure what to >> make of that.) Perhaps he was hoping Mr. Fripp might spit upon it. >> moving on to 'Exiles' (which >> seems a little hurried at points - it might be my ears) I concur. There's a very odd moment in the bridge where the vocalist rushes like the band's got a plane to catch. Time is such a relative thing. Eric Thorson comments: >> There have been a few posts lately denigrating the work of those who >> would use this newsletter as >> a forum for "metaphysical", "religious", "new-age", or"philosophical" >> discussions, "tangential" to >> Fripp/KC music. (etc) I would agree with Eric's points that it is hard to separate the music made from the impulses and philosophies that conspired to create that music. Especially in things Fripperent, since he is one of the few people in our society who is willing to wrestle the beast on a conscious, deliberate, and daily basis. But I'd like to suggest that some of the disgruntlment by ET posters has more to do with how far afield the philosophical aspects get (by definition, a tangent gets further and further away from it's starting point the longer you follow it). It's one thing to discuss the philosophers and thinkers that Fripp is influenced by. It's another to start comparing the various merits of different philosophers with no reference to how this relates to Fripp and his music. Likewise, Daniel Farris comments: >> In the eight short weeks I've been on this >> list we've managed to eliminate tangiential discussions of both music >> theory and recording technology- two concepts, of which discussions are >> both appropriate and unavoidable when discussing Crimson, (etc) There's a very good point there. However, the problem is that these topics start out related to KC and then slowly become about themselves. Toby killed the recording technology discussion because it was becoming the topic in and of itself, and I support his decision, even after having him snip out a fairly significant chunk of my own typing on the subject. (It was becoming "analog is better!" "digital is better!". Are constant banal repetitive off-topic arguments preferable to constant banal repetitive on-topic gushing?). The wonderful thing about any "discussion" is the way it can wander all over the cerebral map, connecting itself to the entire world. But true verbal conversations are linear - they drift off topic, sometimes to drift back, sometimes not. ET, on the other hand, is anything but linear - multiple topics, multiple threads, multiple branches sprouting off those threads, all at the same time - and much like the internet itself, the multiplicity of branches and offshoots could easilly become limitless. At what point does this stop being "The newsletter for KC/Fripp enthusiasts" and become "The newsletter that uses KC/Fripp subjects as its starting point but is now about every topic anyone has ever had a thought about"? >> Must every word be in reference to KC and >> Fripp? (apparently not) Are subsequent tangents inspired by discussions >> of KC and RF not acceptable? This happens in 'real' conversation >> regularly. True, but this is not "real" conversation. A "real" conversation seldom happens among dozens of people at once (note that at parties the conversations almost invariably happen between small groups of people). An alternative analogy to "conversation" would be "conference", where you have many people all focusing on a single topic. This newsletter probably falls in between those two models. The caretakers of this newsletter have chosen to attempt to keep focus and context. They are saying, in effect, "We have come together for a particular reason, and we'd like to keep sight of that reason - not doggedly on top of it, but always within sight." Perhaps they are taking too heavy a hand, and we should politely (read: non-attack) let them know our views one way or the other (that's democracy). Some might prefer to have a larger letter with more tangents, and others would prefer more focus. Just about every confrence I've ever been invlolved with has had that range of viewpoints too, and it's a tricky thing to resolve, to say the least. It in our nature that when something catches our intrest, we wish to go on about it. That's why my own posts always go on so bloody long, and would go on much longer if I didn't exercise the rather insufficient quantity of self-restraint and judgment I do possess. Were I to respond to every provocative offering presented in ET I could easilly create a post that was as long as a few issues, one that I would have the heartfelt beliefe would have some highly useful things to say about life, the universe, and everything. But as valuable as all that might be, ET is not the forum for it. Another way of looking at it: If the world is the double trio, then this newsletter is a "projekct" - breaking down the whole into smaller units so that it can be better observed and comprehended, which then helps the whole better achive its potential. It doesn't disconnect us from the whole, it just focuses our attention on one component. I don't belive we suffer from "groupthink" here - we're just experiencing the problematic upshots of any democratic structure. I belive patience is required, more than revolution. But then again, here I am now wondering whether this very post has gone too far "off-topic"... Ken Lacouture ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:10:12 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Improv, bootlegs, sitting in the dark, yadda, yadda, yadda... Oh, boy! Here I go again! "ZV" in ET420 comments: >> My own personal wish is that King Crimson would actually play a concert >> or series of concerts entirely improvised with possibly one written >> number at the end, rather than having improvs in the middle of a >> concert. Boston '84: At the top of the show, the band members come out one by one, starting with Levin, and begin making what I can only describe as the most jaw-dropping noise I have ever heard in my life. Utterly amazing, made more dramatic by the fact by the one-by-one additions to the sound (about 45 seconds between each arrival). But my main reason for brining it up is because it happened right at the top of the show, and somehow seemed to wind it up very tight and then let it loose (there was plenty of tension left in the spring by the end) - Boston '84 is remembered as a particularly incendiary occurance in these parts. While I'm usually not one push my favorite artists about with an opinion-prod, I wholeheartedly suggest that they consider this kind of overture again. In regards to "ZV" collage creation, and a proposed public posting thereof: >> I do >> not know what DGM and KC would think of such a construction. I really >> don't particularly care, *sigh*. And you wonder why they might get a wee bit defensive over the subject... I don't agree with all of Fripp's stated view on bootlegging, etc., but to proclaim in a public forum that you "don't particularly care" what an artist thinks about a major re-manipulation of their work is naive at best, and colossally rude at worst. I know you're trying to position yourself in the "rational of passionate fandom" camp, but at least pay some lip service, for cryin' out loud. Regarding the thriving thread on Fripp's refusal to expel hemoglobin, toss cutlery, or inquire into the audience's preparedness to sway to and fro: I, for one, do not expect good Robert to go thrashing about the stage in a display of musical passion. (Athough on the '95 tour there was great excitement in our row during "Sex, Sleep, Eat..." when Mr. Fripp arose from his stool as the fast sections hit their peaks: "Did you see that? He STOOD UP!!"). But there seems to be something that's making people think Fripp is deliberatly hiding away, and I think it's the lighting. It's not that he doesn't jump and flail, it's not that he doesn't stand up, and it's not even so much because he's on a low platform between two higher drum risers. It's because most of the time he's in the dark on top of it all. (Look at the photo on the back of "THRakATTaK" and you'll see what I mean.) I remember thinking "It's okay, Bob, you can come out... we *like* you, really!" Regarding the "test pressing" of Exposure: Oh dear, you mean there's *another* version of it? Could someone please bring me up to speed (privatly if you wish)? I've got the '79 vinal and the '85 CD, and I'd like to know what differences or similarities the DifEd might bear to the others. Ben Mann on ProjeKct One: >> All the members are great with the >> 'prov in smaller situations, but the full Double Trio itself has been >> floundering without a compositional basis. Things simply haven't >> "gelled" for the six of them. I pray I'm not opening up a flame war here, but that echos some of my sentiments. I like "THRACK" a lot, but I can't get past what I sense is a labored, struggling feeling, as though they weren't all quite sure who should be doing what at any given moment. I think it has a great deal to do with the two drummers trying to lock together, and as a result they both get dragged down in the process. Just some "customer feedback" here, guys. The thing I think is great about the "ProjeKct" concept is that it's truer to the spirit of music and music-making, rather than about big presentation. They get to experiement in public instead of laboring away in a vaccum, hoping they come out with something. We get to appreciate their experiements, instead of wondering what they're cooking up. The artists and the audience get to make contact much more frequently. But the consequence is that the passionate fans get major anxiety attacks about whether they can make the pilgrimage, it it KC or not, etc. Small tangent regarding quantity and revision of releases: I sense a struggle in the enthusiasts between a desire clean, managable and easilly understandable number of releases, and those who who are insatiable (myself, I'm in the latter). I'd suggest that the reason the majors like that "write, record, big tour, repeat" cycle is that it's really easy for the fans to understand and track, and thus, easier to market. I'm kinda split on it: on the one hand, I love the fact that I can finally hear all this live material I've craved over the years. On the other, the anal retentive side of me says, "Just how many KC albums are there now? Do we think of the historical material as "real" albums? (Like we could define what a "real" album was...) How am I supposed to afford all this stuff?" Of course, these are all mental traps. But it's a fact that "fandom" is based on a strong emotional connection, and when the world you're a fan of suddenly explodes in size, it's hard to keep up, and that throws the emotional ballance all out of whack. Of course in the mean time the musicians in question must continue with their music-making efforts, regardless of the consequences their activity holds for a "clean" catalog, or a quickly understood comprehension of what KC "is". Oh, don't worry, there will be more.... Ken Lacouture P.S. Charles Biel: "Crimson is a thinking persons group playing music that makes you think." Amen to that. It's hard to imagine anyone getting into this much of a dither over Michael Bolton, eh? ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: The Artist Shop Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 18:51:27 -0700 I have just latterly read Gary Davis' rebuttal to Eb's claims. I just want to guilelessly state that Gary Davis, from "The Artist Shop", is doing a meritorious job keeping all of us proggers up to date. When he catapults his information to various NG's, they DO INDEED relate to each particular digest. Fripp and his band DO play an important role in "his" life and store. Keep up the great work, Gary. Sincerely, Barry (who loves and appreciates you) ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: DAX? Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:01:24 -0700 He wrote: From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Re: Original League of Gents Release For those just tuning in, the reason the "first poster" may have been looking for the "original" LP is that the mixes and content of it are substantially different from the later "God Save the King" releases. The original LP (United States: Polydor PD-1-6317) had frequent "found sound" vocals over the instrumental music, in the same fashion as the track "NY3" from "Exposure". The subsequent releases completely eliminated these sound collage components from the mixes. In addtion there are several tracks on the original LP that did not make the trip to "GSTK". Some of these were "a capella" voice collages, but a few musical compositions were left behind. The absentee tracks are: INDISCREET I (voice & sound collage) MINOR MAN (music w/ spoken voice "vocal" by Danielle Dax) HEPTAPARAPRSHINOKH (music, no voice) PARETO OPTIMUM I (Frippertonics - as played by Barry Andrews?) INDISCREET II (voice collage) PARETO OPTIMUM II (Frippertonics - as played by Barry Andrews?) OCHRE (Frippertonics played by ?) INDISCREET III (voice & sound collage) My question is: Is there any available recording for me to get my grubby hands on that has this "Minor Man" featuring Danielle Dax? BARRY NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE LOVING ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:29:41 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Doctor Diamond > >Has anyone figured out how it is that a song seemingly about the > engineer of > >an >underground train ended up being called "Doctor Diamond"? the > lyrics sound > >>close to what i've heard but seem to have absolutely nothing to do > with the > >>song's title. > > Call me goofy, but [insert Dana Carvey voice here] could it > be...SATAN???? > Seriously, I always thought that the persona of the lyric was the > Prince of > Darkness himself, taking lost souls on a "train to hell" You're close, I think, but too literal. I seem to remember reading once that there was a real Doctor Diamond. He was a British doctor known for liberally doling out drugs to rock stars, kind of a U.K. analogue to Elvis Presley's Dr. Nick. With that as background, reflect again on the song's content in a more impressionistic kind of way. I think it works just fine, and far better than a more literal treatment of the title's subject would have. Fripp states in the "Great Deceiver" booklet that "Doctor Diamond" "never fell into place as a piece of writing" which may be one reason it was never taken into the studio, but another reason might have been fear of a slander suit... The thing that's bothering me is that I can't for the life of me remember where I read this story. I've flipped through the booklets from YPG, FBF and TGC and just can't spot it. All I know is that I'm going to feel really stupid if I made this up out of weird memory fragments. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:58:05 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: No Weasels at the Artist Shop > >> ...that schmoozing Artist Shop signoff "So, how are things in YOUR > town?" > > Just for historical accuracy (and to satisfy my own deeply held anal > retentive tendancies), "How are things in YOUR town" is a quote from > the > inimitable Ken Nordine of "Word Jazz" fame. Artist Shop might be a > bunch of > shameless marketing weasles, but you've got to admit they've got > taste. Just for the sake of MY own anal retentive tendancies, the Artist Shop is not "a bunch of shameless marketing weasels" but just Gary, a genuinely music-loving former social worker I've known remotely for years. If he strikes people as overzealous and "schmoozing" in his desire to promulgate his interests and those of the artists he represents, fair enough. But if he never produces another recording project in his life he will be fondly remembered (by me at least) for producing "A Chance Operation," a 2 CD tribute to John Cage that featured Frank Zappa's final recording, Laurie Anderson, Yoko Ono, Ken "How are things in YOUR town?" Nordine, the Kronos Quartet, Ryiuchi Sakamoto, Patrick Moraz, Oregon and many, many others. And in addition to its obvious artistic merits (and there are many) and its technological novelty (each disc is given 100 index points so that by playing them on shuffle play each listening can produce its own "chance operation"), the release was a benefit that raised thousands of dollars for Gay Men's Health Crisis, America's first and foremost AIDS charity organization. The record company that released it, Koch International Classics, reaped massive acclaim for the set, but they hardly lifted a finger throughout its gestation and development; it was all Gary, hustling from home in Cuyahoga Falls. (I was an employee of Koch at the time but am no longer, so I hope this rant won't be construed as a marketing ploy. I simply think the record is the most worthwhile thing the company ever released.) Sorry about the non-Crimson subject matter, but I knew Gary wasn't opportunistic to blow his own horn in this way. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:04:05 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Warning: no Spice Girls content >From: KenLac at aol dot com > >about Eb's post in ET418: >>> My subscription is really hanging by a thread, at this point. >Wow, threatening to cancel his free subscription. That'll probably reduce >ET's revenue by 100%! Talk about throwing your weight around. Oh, don't be absurd. ;) You know that wasn't a "threat" -- just an expression of dissatisfaction. >>> ...that schmoozing Artist Shop signoff "So, how are things in YOUR town?" > >Just for historical accuracy (and to satisfy my own deeply held anal >retentive tendancies), "How are things in YOUR town" is a quote from the >inimitable Ken Nordine of "Word Jazz" fame. Artist Shop might be a bunch of >shameless marketing weasles, but you've got to admit they've got taste. Aha. Well, I wonder if Gary Davis even knows this -- after all, the phrase has passed into common use by now. Heck, I didn't know that and I even own two Nordine CDs (Colours and the Rhino best-of). Which Nordine track includes that phrase, anyway? >From: Gary Davis > >it'll come as a shock to you, Eb, >that Synergy is hands down the hottest selling artist in The Artist Shop. >No other artist even comes close to half the sales he's generating. Uh-huh. Well, let us know when the Synergy albums go Gold. >From: Christopher Jepson > >Regarding Eb's post in #418: >Now wait a minute... in a single paragraph, you take Toby to task for >excessive quality control, and then bemoan irrelevant threads... that makes >it sound like you want to have it both ways: You don't want quality >control, but you also don't want to put up with irksome posts. Care to >clarify? OK, if you insist. No, I didn't say that I don't want to put up with "irksome posts." What was I commenting upon is the double standard relating to "groupthink" and "non-groupthink" posts/threads. If someone comes out in favor of punk or against David Sylvian/Yes/Pink Floyd/ELP, etc. etc. (non-groupthink), the thread is cut off fairly quickly and everyone heaps abuse on these deviants with lots of "Opinions are meaningless, you egotistical jerk -- why don't you keep your pointless, self-indulgent views to yourself?" sorts of comments. But if other folks ramble on and on about how great King Crimson/ELP/David Sylvian/Yes are or how all '90s-era music is superficial garbage, etc. (groupthink), no one offers a word of objection. Double standard. I still cringe over that aside some ETer once tossed out, essentially that "Hmmpf! Next thing you know, someone will be saying that rap and country aren't worthless." I'd like to think I'm more open-minded than that. I can easily skim past ELP, Artist Shop, guitar tab, Steve Vai, Grateful Dead, California Guitar Quartet, tech posts, etc. I don't mind. But I resent it when other sorts of threads aren't given equal time, and instead cut off with a condescending sniff. Recently, I and someone else exchanged about 10 lines' worth of dialogue on the list regarding Holst's Mars as a marching-band vehicle. But when I sent back another (very short) post, it was returned to me with a "OK, we've had enough of this"-type comment. A dozen or so lines are too much, eh? Sheesh, there are folks here whose SIGFILES are almost that long. Not to mention all the long, long posts of only peripheral relevance (ie, Ownership of Recordings in the past issue). It seems like ANY post will be published without question, as long as it's lengthy and academic-sounding, while short posts are mostly dismissed as frivolous and unnecessary. This makes for very, very dry reading. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:26:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikewyz at aol dot com Subject: Fripp posts Would anyone have a list of the digest #s that contain Fripp's postings to ET? I'd very much like to hear the other things he's contributed to this forum. thanks, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:39:59 -0400 (EDT) From: MPrais2107 at aol dot com Subject: King Crimson in Brazil ? I know that there are 20 ET subscribers in Brazil. I'm Brazilian but I'm living in Miami and I really hope that I'll see KC on a brazilian stage before I die. They played in Argentina so why not in Brazil? The audience is hungry for "dinosaurs" and is also huge (I meam KC's fans). I started by myself an "e-mail campaign" to anybody who could bring this brazilian wish to somebody that could work on it, like KC,s manager. Agua mole em pedra dura, tanto bate ate que fura !!!!!!!!!! MPrais2107 at aol dot com Regards Marcelo ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:54:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Goodcraker at aol dot com Subject: Chicago is waiting ...and needing a change Hi ETers. Sitting in the Windy City wondering when are we going to be graced with the presence of anything KC, RF or otherwise . A quick reply to several ETers who have noted something I have noticed myself. First off, I attended both KC concerts in the Chicago area ( June and November of 1995) . Damned if I wasnt the shortest guy there. I have always felt that those who truly enjoy and (try) understand their music have been a slightly more intelligent crowd than most. Try and sit your average 19 year old hipster down and have him listen to LTiA without a lot of complaint and confusion. KC and RF have always been a required taste, but it also requires a brain. But Im digressing. Im 5'8....and easily the shortest man in the crowds at both events( Mr Fripp the lone exception!). Are you all a tall lot? I guess I'll get the platforms next time Tony Levin comes around. Anyway, love reading ALL POSTS! Please try and not censor, we are all fans and this format is the only onethat true fans have to discuss all matters KC.......and Mr. Fripp...p[lease return to Chicago soon.....PLEASE! Music in this town is in a sad state of affairs...Thanx all....Terry Murphy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:50:42 -0500 From: "Chris 'Coz' Costello" Subject: Bruford's compositions and setup(s) [From ET 419] >In ET 412, Eb comments: > >>> (Yeah, yeah, I know Bruford gets some shared >>> songwriting credits, but isn't that mostly just a nod to his improvisation >>> abilities?) >Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:33:56 -0400 (EDT) >From: KenLac at aol dot com >Subject: Bruford's Compositional Abilites > >Forgive me if someone has already addressed this issue, and I've missed it. > >I've always been under the impression that Mr. Bruford is rather more versed >in the art of tonal composition than the average drummer. He has done a fair >bit of the melodic composition on his "Bruford" era recordings. My guess is that there >may be a number of compositions in Bruford's catalog in which he was the >primary composer. To my knowledge, most of the "Bruford" band material was at least co-written by Bruford, sometimes entirely written by Bruford. I know Holdsworth and Berlin both had one tune on _One of a Kind_, but I'm pretty sure Bruford has at least co-writer credit on the rest of that album, at least. Most of the vibraphone parts (played with the pedal up and with sticks) are his, I think. Same goes for Earthworks, although Iain Ballamy and Django Bates had more of their own tunes than Holdsworth and Berlin did. It also seems, from a co-writing perspective, that Bill wrote more of the underlying parts, using his electronic drums, and let the horn players handle the melodies. That's just a guess. He also wrote one tune on Kazumi Watanabe's _Spice of Life_, and his track on _Burning for Buddy_ is an original composition, which annoyed some drummers who thought is was defeating the purpose of the album. [from ET #420] >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:10:50 -0400 (EDT) >From: Rshift at aol dot com >Subject: Bil Bruford info > > Hello. I am a crimso fan looking for some particular info. My pursuit in >music has been behind the drum Kit. For as long as I have been a crimso fan I >have been a total fan of Bruford's approach to the Kit! The info I am looking >for is about the kits he has used in past years. In particular the setup he >used for Larks tongue in aspic - Red, and also Discipline. To be even more >exact I recently bought some old Simmons electronics and I knew Bruford used >electronic drum sounds in discipline. If whomever reads this mail could not >return the info could you please let me know where I could receive this info. >Please and Thank you so much!!! Well, as far as I can tell, Lark's Tongues and Red sound like just a normal, probably five-piece, kit. Similar to the acoustic part of his current kit in terms of sizes -- either 12", 13" and 16" or 13", 14" and 16" toms, standard depth. Most times that I've seen him with acoustic drums, it's something like that. Don't know about the cymbals, but I'm sure they were Paiste. The Discipline kit had an acoustic bass drum, snare, one 14" roto-tom, a gong bass drum, four octobans/dragon drums/boo-bams, a bunch of Simmons pads, a ride cymbal, and two crashes. I don't know exactly which line of Simmons he used until Earthworks, when he was using the SDX. If I were to guess, I'd say SDS 7, at least for TOAPP. I think those were the first to use "run generators," which meant you got a different pitch each time you hit the drum. You might want to ask about it on rec.music.makers.percussion Hope that helps. I may have a page going up on my web site about Bruford soon, but it still needs some work. Later, COZ +-- | Chris 'Coz' Costello / "Hipness is transient. You have to change | http://www.tezcat.com/~coz / in order to be continually hip." | coz at tezcat dot com / - Vinnie Colaiuta | ---+ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:07:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Tomas Howie Subject: New Bruford Album???? The following line was in the last ET Digest's index: > Re - The New Bill Bruford Album However, the post it referred to was not included. Can someone elucidate? Thanks! *************************************************************************** * Tomas * "Language is the light * * West Chazy, NY USA * of the mind." * * tomas at slic dot com * - John Stuart Mill * *************************************************************************** * Tomas Howie Drum Web: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9870/ * * Resource Web: http://members.tripod.com/~THowie/ * * Howie Homestead: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2340/ * * Jon Anderson Page: http://www.il.fontys.nl/~lodewks/jon.htm * *************************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #421 ********************************