Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #420 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 420 Friday, 19 September 1997 Today's Topics: Ownership of Recordings Re: Original League of Gents Release Artist Shop postings We have a winner! Hello & Special Announcement .... 2 Exposure quests The Isle of Wight Festival PROJEkCT ONE Re: News update + my opinions The Nightwatch Bil Bruford info Moderation (in all things) ET threads, final smashing misuse of forum 13/09/97 playback - a review PROJEkt ONE- Improv strength in smaller numbers? Re: Draining our pockets Definitive Definitive Editions? Daniel Farris speaks the truth. Tangents, Doctor D, serialism, and community... RF's admonition, ETc. Performance - Computer vs Human Home Frippertronics Re: Night Watch Playback/Signed shoes ET 415 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:34:50 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Ownership of Recordings Jeremy Keens's comments about the particulars of ownership in modern recording contract practices (ET412) prompts me to share some thinking I've been doing on the issue. (Note to Toby: I do hope you'll let this not-100%-on-topic post slide into the gray area. I think it is pertinent, due to the fact that Fripp and DGM is on the forefront of trying to change the industry practice in question.) First, the disclaimer: I am not a music historian, and may have some of my perceptions wrong here. All the more reason I wish to share these ideas, and put them to public test (and I *do* mean test). If I've got my history straight, then in the early days of the recording industry, the model worked as such: The recording companies were created to provide "software" (although that term had not been invented) for their parent company's play-back devices (Edision cylinders, victrolas and such). The technological means for producing such software were far from the reach of any average artist. The technological power to make a record was centralized in the hands of the record companies. In those primitive days a recording contract was a means of the record company "hiring" an artist to provide musical content, much as a band leader would hire musicians for his band. In this instance it made a great deal of sense that the recording company would own the recording. The artist was being hired for a performance that the record company had commissioned. Today, all that has been stood on it's head, mostly due to the Beatles and their truly monumental influence over the standard practices of the recording industry. Before "Sgt. Pepper" recordings were commonly considered to be "documents" of live performances. The performances themselves were the "art" and the recording was a facsimile of such. "Sgt. Pepper" heralded the concept of the recording itself being the primary art, standing as something greater than the sum total of the raw performances involved in it's creation. As that concept was more vigorously explored through the years, the recordings themselves took on a great deal more value. In tandem an additional phenomena was taking place. The means of recording was becoming decentralized. It started with a slow migration away from label owned studios and staff engineers. A viable market for independent studios came about, and more records were being created by independent producers and engineers. The sea chance has culminated recently with the "desktop" and "portastudio" revolution, resulting in hit records being created in their artist's bedrooms (hello Beck). Slowly, "recording" companies dropped the recording aspect of their business, and became marketing and distribution companies. Hardly any records on the market today are being produced in label-owned studios, or by staff producers. Instead the artist has control over the production of the recording, and sells that recording to the record company. Sometimes said recording is "commissioned" by the recording company (through multi-album deals), and sometimes it is up to the artist to create a market for their completed recording, but very seldom outside of the classical realm is the impetus for making the record a result of the record company itself. So, in the old model, the artist sold their performance services, as an actor would sell his performance to a theater company. In the new model, the artist sells a finished recording, as a painter sells a completed canvas. In the old model, the impetus for the recording and the technology was in the hands of the recording company. In the new model, the impetus is mostly in the hands of the artist, and the technology is almost entirely outside of the label. Now, here comes the sticky bit: Modern contractual practices assume almost by default that the market is for purchase of a completed recording. "Licensing" a recording, with the ownership of such remaining with the artist, is nearly unheard of on the major label level. In rare cases successful artists can create enough leverage to renegotiate their terms or purchase back their catalog (Ray Charles comes to mind). But by far, the "expectation" is that the record company will come to own the recording. But since the recording has become the art, how ethical is it to expect the artist to automatically relinquish all control over that art's replication, distribution, and usage? And since we have now reached a point where the artist is responsible for almost all aspects of creating the recording itself (including, rather significantly, the impetus to call that recording into creation), why are the outdated practices of ownership still being used? (I was about to say "outdated practice of transferring ownership", but then I realized that under the old model there was no "transfer" involved: the record company owned the recording from beginning to end). Why should it be so "automatic" that the record company will own the recording (in lieu of the possibility of any other kind of arrangement) when they have had so little hands-on role in creating it (usually nothing more than providing some up-front money and having an A/R guy/gal lurking about the studio). (Fade out hypothetical argument: fade in subjectivity) The answer I will offer to these questions is "tradition" and "leverage". The artist's lack of the latter greatly inhibits their ability to escape the stranglehold of the former. I believe what Fripp rails against is the "expectation" built into the current business model. If an artist feels that they are justly compensated for relinquishing ownership and control of their recording, then there is nothing wrong with that transaction. However, in the modern recording industry there are very, very few alternatives. The basic assumptions are that if the artist does not wish to abide by these conditions then they are essentially saying "no deal", which 49 out of 50 times will be "no big deal" to the label. If this were Major League Baseball (sorry to be so American here), practices such as this would fall under the term "collusion", and be illegal. Fripp is a very vocal opponent to the idea that there is only one "standard" of business practice that can be used, and attempts with DGM to create other viable practices. One might look at it as Fripp's second career (this one is looking at it that way, at least...) There are many directions this conversation could take, and this message is far longer than I expected it to be already (so what else is new?). But I do wish to make two other specific points that are pertinent when considering any positions on artist/label arrangements: 1) On average, a Compact Disc that retails in a store for US$16 will result in payments of somewhere between $1 and $1.50 to the artist. 2) In many contractual arrangements, "advance" money is just that: This is not money that is given to the artist to cover the cost of making the recording. This is royalty money bequeathed to the artist in "advance" of any sale. If an artist is given $5000 in advance money, they will not be given any further royalties until that $5000 has been recovered by the record company. So in the average situation, a band that is given $10,000 to make a record will have to sell about 7500 to 10,000 units before they will ever see a royalty check. (This in theory. In practice, there are a great number of additional "chargebacks" which add to the amount of royalties withheld.) This a very important point to have in mind when considering if a certain price is "just compensation" for relinquishing control of the recording. Here's to a splendid discussion, right up until Toby announces the horse ain't breathin' no more... Regards, Ken Lacouture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:37:30 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Re: Original League of Gents Release Addtional comments to Clive Backham's in ET 418. >> I'm looking for a copy of Fripp/League of Gentlemen on CD. >> The one with the >> pink cover with a drawing of a cat or something on it. :: I suspect the first poster was enquiring about the original League of :: Genltmen LP. AFAIK, this has NOT been released on CD. For those just tuning in, the reason the "first poster" may have been looking for the "original" LP is that the mixes and content of it are substantially different from the later "God Save the King" releases. The original LP (United States: Polydor PD-1-6317) had frequent "found sound" vocals over the instrumental music, in the same fashion as the track "NY3" from "Exposure". The subsequent releases completely eliminated these sound collage components from the mixes. In addtion there are several tracks on the original LP that did not make the trip to "GSTK". Some of these were "a capella" voice collages, but a few musical compositions were left behind. The absentee tracks are: INDISCREET I (voice & sound collage) MINOR MAN (music w/ spoken voice "vocal" by Danielle Dax) HEPTAPARAPRSHINOKH (music, no voice) PARETO OPTIMUM I (Frippertonics - as played by Barry Andrews?) INDISCREET II (voice collage) PARETO OPTIMUM II (Frippertonics - as played by Barry Andrews?) OCHRE (Frippertonics played by ?) INDISCREET III (voice & sound collage) On the tracks that did make it to "GSTK, the mixes of the remaining music sans voice were substantially different (although as far as I can tell all the performance takes were identical, unlike the substitutions that where made when "Exposure" was remixed for CD). If I might be subjective for a moment, (Yes? Why thank you!) I feel the original mixes were better than the remixes on "GSTK", with the exception of "Trap", which really made Fripp's solo blaze with particular intensity. I'm still on the fence about whether the tracks are more effective with or without the spoken-overs (but as it stands, I don't have to make a choice, do I?). The "GSTK" configuration makes for a much tighter musical presentation, but as Clive says, the original LP had a certain quirky (if slightly immature) "charm", mostly due to the missing voice cut-ups. (Would the White album have been better pared down to a single record as George Martin wanted? Who can say now?) I'll also second Clive's suggestion that those who enjoy the LoG (please, let's not have any fistfights now, shall we?) check out "Thrang Thrang Gozinbulx" (DGM 9602). I can't guess what it was about the LoG's sound that was so hard to capture in the studio, but the live album does seem to have a great deal more intensity. (But nobody says "Rock and Roll is about F***ing!" anywhere on it.) There are also a few pretty good compositions that didn't make it into any of the studio releases. Happy Hunting, Ken Lacouture Ding, Dong, and Fripp, Esq. P.S. Two very minor comment about Eb's post in ET418 - snip 'em if you want, Toby... >> My subscription is really hanging by a thread, at this point. Wow, threatening to cancel his free subscription. That'll probably reduce ET's revenue by 100%! Talk about throwing your weight around. >> ...that schmoozing Artist Shop signoff "So, how are things in YOUR town?" Just for historical accuracy (and to satisfy my own deeply held anal retentive tendancies), "How are things in YOUR town" is a quote from the inimitable Ken Nordine of "Word Jazz" fame. Artist Shop might be a bunch of shameless marketing weasles, but you've got to admit they've got taste. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:13:49 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Artist Shop postings Well, I've been reading with somewhat detached amusement Eb's tirade against Artist Shop notices in ET. I didn't really think it was anything worth responding to until he made the worst of all possible remarks, that I don't actually read ET. ;-) >Finally: Note that Davis hasn't responded to any of the recent criticisms, >which only confirms suspicions that he doesn't even read ET While I do subscribe to many mailing lists. ET is one of my favorites and I do read it regularly (although sometimes I fall behind). I would think the fact that I've hosted IRC Chats with three current Crimson members shows some appreciation for the band. Eb's logic in assuming that failure to respond to him was evidence of not reading ET was faulty in that it assumed that Eb was worth responding to. The irony for me in this whole situation is that Eb specifically refers to posts that I did not directly send to ET. When sending material directly to ET I always try to keep in mind that the material should be Crimson/Fripp/DGM related. The last note I sent directly to ET was my 8/11 post announcing the location of the chat log for the Artist Shop/Tony Levin IRC Chat. However, our fearless moderator, Toby, happens to be on my e-mail list as an individual and he therefore gets all my Artist Shop mailings. I noticed that he would sometimes add notices that were sent to him as a subscriber to my list onto the ET list. I always very grateful for this and felt he was just using his best judgement as to what he felt was of interest to the readers of ET. I've always been very grateful of his support of The Artist Shop and have no problem at all with him exercising his editorial perogative over anything I send his way. THANK YOU, TOBY! >"Crass" would definitely be the word that came to mind as I read Davis' >extended glib, fabricated "conversation" with Bill Clinton about the >OH-so-exciting Synergy reissue coming out. Blecccch. Now this is interesting. Eb refers to a note that I sent out as a private joke between me and the subscribers to my e-mail list. I never sent this note anywhere but to my subscribers. I did not repost it to any newsgroups or mailing lists. And I don't recall seeing it reposted to ET (although I might've just missed it). >Also, I'm sure that >I'm not the only one here who couldn't care less about Synergy, and who's >somewhat surprised that anyone would even bother to re-release the albums. While you're undoubtedly not the only one, it'll come as a shock to you, Eb, that Synergy is hands down the hottest selling artist in The Artist Shop. No other artist even comes close to half the sales he's generating. BTW, it'll interest ET'ers that Larry Fast credits Fripp on the Cords album for introducing him to tape loop technology. As for Eb's comments that my postings are self serving, of course they are! But they also serve the artists in The Artist Shop. And that's my main objective. Personally I don't really care what Eb thinks. He's entitled to his opinion (and to be honest I don't disagree with everything he says, I'm a diehard CCR fan myself!). But I felt it appropriate to clarify the issues he brought up to the ET readers (of whom I am most definitely one). Thanks to Damon and Toby for their support on this issue. And thanks also to Jason whose criticism I felt was polite, constructive and well intended. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:44:43 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: We have a winner! Artisitic ETers: Toby finally found some time to make his selections from the ET logo choices you sent in, and combined with my selections we have decided to pick a logo submitted by Tim Ryan (please stand up Tim :^) !!! In the coming days I will determine how and where best to use the new logo and hopefully by next week it will be in use. Meanwhile it would be a shame if all the other entries were not used. I'd like to consider using some of the other designs when appropriate. If you'd rather I not please just send me a note to the effect. Thanks again to everyone for participating! Dan ET Web ------------------------------ From: "Z V" Subject: Hello & Special Announcement .... Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:41:15 PDT Hello ETers ... Please excuse the anonymity, but for what I'm about to suggest, I think it would be best for me. A while back Mr. Adrian Belew himself posted into this forum while I was lurking through another address in response to a needless battle concerning whether he was "good enough" for King Crimson. His response (at least the part that stuck with me) was "Put Up Or Shut Up." In other words, if you think you can do it equally or better than he can, step right up onstage and do it. While I agree with what he wrote in the face of that particular argument, I have often thought of many of my favorite performers in a rather selfish way, which is to express rather rudely what I wish they'd play, rather than to cheerfully accept what they want to play. So I decided that I would take Mr. Belew up on his offer, but I felt that I should do it without actually being so presumptuous as to insist upon joining King Crimson. Aside from that being one of the more ridiculous ideas that I've had, I am a pianist, not a guitarist, percussionist, or "stickist"; it appears there is no room for someone with my skills in the last two incarnations of King Crimson. Which is as it should be. My own personal wish is that King Crimson would actually play a concert or series of concerts entirely improvised with possibly one written number at the end, rather than having improvs in the middle of a concert. The improvs for me make the live King Crimson so exciting, as does the live solo Robert Fripp. But, since this does not seem to be anywhere close to reality, I've chosen to construct my own mammoth version of King Crimson's improvs along with material related via Mr. Fripp, much like an electronica DJ such as Alex Paterson or Darren Emerson. The Construction, titled "The Prog Rock Pond Scum Mix" is very near to completion, and I would like to offer it as a Realaudio 3.0 Dual ISDN stereo file, yours for the downloading, if someone would be so kind as to offer an ftp site that could be used for this project. Simply tell me where I could upload it ... the size is projected to be between 10 and 20 Mb, but it will probably around 14 (its length in clock time is somewhere around 46 minutes). If nothing else, you'll have a "new King Crimson album" for lack of anything better to call it, and no money will have exchanged hands. It would be even nicer if members of King Crimson themselves would listen to what I've done and comment, but this isn't necessary, given that they've heard what they've played before and they may not be interested. It is still very much their music, hence my anonymity; I do not know what DGM and KC would think of such a construction. I really don't particularly care, as I would create this regardless of anyone's reaction to it; this is my personal reaction to the music of King Crimson and Robert Fripp. I wish to share it with other King Crimson fans, and see their reactions, pro and con. As I know that the members of King Crimson watch from time to time, I do want to say that my intent has naught to do with money and everything to do with my expression of how I hear Crimson/Fripp music. I would hope that they find this construction interesting at worst. This is not simply a stringing together of several improvs. Care has been taken to ensure that they are compatible with each other musically. To give you a good whetting of an appetite as to what I'm talking about having done I'll describe a couple of sections .... One section begins with a portion of the improv "Daniel Dust" -- in the middle rather unexpectedly, "The Golden Walnut" begins .... a short excerpt of that improv is played as "Daniel Dust" fades (the superimposed section runs about two minutes in length), and at an opportune moment where it felt proper to my ears to have a new bit come in, it dissolves magically into a 4.5 minute version of the entire 1999 Soundscape album, folded over itself to fit into that time frame as a way to help Mr. Fripp get even more of a lot of noise from a single guitar (not just improvs are used but the majority of them come from the box set _Great Deceiver_). It sounds like "An Index Of Metals" gone berserk to my ears. Another section has "Two Sticks" from B'boom time-stretched to twice its original length, flanged to death and superimposed over a more quiet section of "A Voyage To The Centre Of The Cosmos." The final number is "Discipline", in its entirety, but it too has been doctored. Some sections have been key shifted, and the entire thing has been overlaid with a modal chord playing every part parallel to what the musicians are playing. The result is a harmonically thicker piece of music than before, with more textural listening opportunities. The basic idea is to create the sound of my long-daydreamed ideal King Crimson concert and to share it with other Crimson fans. If anyone has an FTP site to which I can upload it, I will see that it gets there upon its completion. Thanks, and I eagerly await responses. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:54:27 -0400 From: Horatio Subject: 2 Exposure quests Greetings to all! In the past, I have often written ET for info on the existence of a test pressing for *Exposure*. The test pressing I am looking for is the one that has Daryl Hall singing lead vocals on all but one track. Now, a certain unique circumstance has just arisen in which I have potentially located a supplier who is auctioning a test pressing of *Exposure*. This is quest #1. I am told that it is a test pressing and that it has the white label and all. However, what I am unsure of is whether it is *the* test pressing I am looking for. Since *Exposure* was released 3 times (1979, 1985, and the DE), I am very cautious as to bidding because I don't want to end up with the test pressing for, say, the 1985 rerelease (which most likely doesn't have Mr. Hall singing most of the leads). I need advice, help, anything. If there is any descriptive details (especially visual) out there about the original test pressing, I would greatly appreciate them being sent to me via email. BTW, I *DO* reply to emails, so don't hesitate writing to me. The quirky thing about all of this is is that I had almost given up looking for this "holy grail" of sorts, and with it being the 25th anniversary of Daryl Hall & John Oates' recording career as a duo (and a full studio album and planned boxed set to go along with it), you can bet this whole situation has me in quite a stir. My second quest: Does anyone out there know how I can get a CD copy of the 1985 Remix version of *Exposure*? I already have the 1979 released version on LP, and the Definitive Edition on CD, but I am looking for the Remix version. Again, thanks for your help, and I hope to hear from you shortly. "Well, get out! There's the door...." In music, - Tim Hufnagle txh120 at psu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:59:15 -0400 From: "Timothy J. DiChiara" Subject: The Isle of Wight Festival Of semi-peripheral interest to KC and progressive music enthusiasts... I just saw "A Message to Love: The Isle of Wight Festival, 1970", which has been newly released on video (here in the US). I highly recommend it as a fascinating historical document of the time, NOT as a shining example of quality music. With the exception of powerful performances by the Doors and the Moody Blues (unexpected!), the music was uniformly bad. The worst, by far, was ELP--they packed all the worst cliches about rock-and-roll, progressive music, and the '70s into one concentrated pellet of bombast. Terrible! (This from an old ELP fan...) Anyone out there go to the festival in person? I'd love to hear your experiences (via private email, of course). Cheers, Tim DiChiara Baobab Computing ------------------------------ From: "Marc" Subject: PROJEkCT ONE Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:33:22 +0200 Hello People ! Since i red the posting of Mr Bob Fripp in the ET # 417, i woul like to have more informations about the concerts at the Jazz Cafe London & Newlyn church Cornwall. Is there any tickets selling, and how can we buy tickets from other countries ? The Jazz Cafe will be improvisation with "no prior rehearsals", that allows me to think that it's gonna be some kind of Thrakattack stuff ? To Mr Fripp : Sorry but we're not the same creatures at all !!! In fact we're all creatures, that's right. But first, in my sense your mind must be some alien's one to allow you to do such music ( i will spare you of all the habitual adjective triping along with your picture. So i'm not gonna say you're one of the most amazing musician i've ever seen (heard?), that your Music is powerfull, intoxicating, and inimitable, and... Uh ? i told it ? sorry... I didn't mean it !...) Second and that's where i want to go, i will correct the spelling regarding only you : C R E A T O R . So long !! :) Marc-Andr=E9 BACA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:53:18 +0200 (MET DST) From: Pawel Swirek Subject: Re: News update + my opinions On Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:56:56 Discipline Global Mobile wrote : > > PROJEkCT ONE > > Bill Bruford > Robert Fripp > Trey Gunn > Tony Levin Very good project. > > Separating out the full group into smaller working ensembles > increases the musicians' knowledge of what is possible for the full group; > conjoining increases their understanding of what is possible for any Double > Trio. Or any Triple Duo. Or Sextet. At least, that's the idea which I am > currently presenting to the other members of King Crimson, to consider our > next period and how best to embrace it. It is good idea. > > PROJEkCT ONE, at the Jazz Cafe, London, Monday - Thursday 1-4th. > December 1997, is the first King Crimson sub-group project of several > planned. The music is improvised and there are no prior rehearsals. Very good. I'd like go for these shows, but it is too far away from my place. But what about Adrian Belew ? > > II > > On the afternoon of Saturday 6th. December (14.30 - 17.00) there is > a Soundscapes performance in Newlyn Church, Cornwall, with artwork by John > Miller and Peter Willis, to benefit a local special needs learning group > which has had its funding cut. I'd like to go there, but reason is the same as above. I like soundscpaes very much. They're very good. And my questions: 1. (to DGM) : Currently I have 2CD version of "Epitaph" box. I'd like to get part 3 and 4 of that box, but I have troubles : DGM refused send that parts of box to Polish shop "Rock Servis" in Cracow, so I can't get these albums. I tried send e-mail to DGM using adres written in postcard included in "Epitaph" box, but I received error message (user unknown), so that address is incorrect. How to get CD 3 & 4 of "Epitaph" if I live in Poland ? 2. What about new King Crimson release (album with new tracks) ? In my country people says, that group does not make any new album, but make albums with previously recorded live tracks. Greetings Pawel Swirek from Poland Big fan of King Crimson and other progressive bands ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 13:38:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierron3 at aol dot com Subject: The Nightwatch Anyone know when The Nightwatch is supposed to be available in the U.S.A? Any info would be helpful and appreciated! Mike Pierron ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:10:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Rshift at aol dot com Subject: Bil Bruford info Hello. I am a crimso fan looking for some particular info. My pursuit in music has been behind the drum Kit. For as long as I have been a crimso fan I have been a total fan of Bruford's approach to the Kit! The info I am looking for is about the kits he has used in past years. In particular the setup he used for Larks tongue in aspic - Red, and also Discipline. To be even more exact I recently bought some old Simmons electronics and I knew Bruford used electronic drum sounds in discipline. If whomever reads this mail could not return the info could you please let me know where I could receive this info. Please and Thank you so much!!! gratefully-Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 15:24:01 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Moderation (in all things) Regarding Eb's post in #418: Now wait a minute... in a single paragraph, you take Toby to task for excessive quality control, and then bemoan irrelevant threads... that makes it sound like you want to have it both ways: You don't want quality control, but you also don't want to put up with irksome posts. Care to clarify? -- Chris Jepson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:48:02 -0700 From: Herbert Boardman Subject: ET threads, final smashing misuse of forum Greetings, all. The recent cutting of threads has me mildly concerned. Mildly because KC will continue w/wo ET. Concerned because I like ET. The problem I have with this thread-cutting is that there is not a whole lot of Crimson related material to chat about. Any more, that is. Sure, there is Night Watch and ProjeKct OnE. (IntRIGuIng cAPItAliZaTIOn, rOBERt) These are both speculative threads, due to their forthcoming nature. Talking about musicians is fine because musicians make music. Or decipher it, whatever. Moreover, if Toby-One lets a note through that you find objectionable, don't read it. That's why Toby requires (I think, or perhaps just suggests) posters include a subject. For Jim Bailey: Do you follow that by going MAD 1, MAD 2, MAD 3, MAD 4.......! And for my final smashing misuse of this forum, (stop here if you are sensitive to these aberrations): I posted recently about my band, ICE NINE, looking for additional players in the Eugene, Oregon USA area. We now have a web page, complete with link to ET. Consider: http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/`rickett/in3.htm Thanks for the floor. Regards, Mike Holst A band is only as good as its fans. --Mike Holst PS: I wrote the Planet suite for my own personal use. George Lucas can burn in helllllll!!!!! Herb's Theorem: Style is for people who can't do math. PROOF: Go to any mall. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:43:47 +0200 (METDST) From: Cipresso Francesco Subject: 13/09/97 playback - a review Hi all you Crimheads! I've just got back from London where I joined the "Nightwatch & Friends" Playback,and I thought about writing some lines on this quite unforgettable experience. I spent in London the whole weekend with my parents and I was lucky enough to stay at the Inter-continental Hotel,where the Playback was planned: This gave me the opportunity to hang around the Grand Ballroom & the "merchandise area" for the whole morning,long before the doors were opened. I really appreciated Tony Levin's report on the event;he was the first guy from Crimso I met that day,:just arrived in the ballroom for somerehearsals: I went to have a little chat and a snapshot with him,taken by a sound tech- nician who was preparing the amplifiers. Just a few seconds after leaving him,I noticed a quite familiar figure arriving from the bottom of the hall; when I finally recognized mr. Michael Giles my heartbeat level grew at risk level. He was dressed in the same way as at the Epitaph Playback(I was not there,but I've seen some pictures)and shakin' his hand + some chit-chatting with him is still one of the brightest memories of the day. Then I walked around the merchandise rooms for a while,buying (possibly) the very 1st-sold copy of "the Night Watch" and playing some small pieces of "ITCOTCK" on the RF mellotron from the 1969-74 years,exposed here in all its majestic glory. Later,when I finally met Bill Bruford asking:"The Ballroom, the Ballroom;where's the Ballroom?" and Robert Fripp,standing in front of the mellotron & chatting with David Singleton plus another technician,and meeting ,a few seconds later,Tony Levin with a friendly embrace,I really felt "In The Court Of The CrRimson King" The Playback,under the public point of view,was structured like an emotional crescendo,beginning from the fine acoustic set of Tony Geballe,continuing with Levin's bass-improv and Bruford's spoken-only intro of his new work w/ Towner & Gomez,to finally end with the hottest dish of the day. When John Wetton("flown up from Rome just to be here with us today",as RF put it) played this touching version of "Book Of Saturday",the climax reached its peak. No wonder he said,introducing the song:"Last night I was in Rome for a concert,and when I performed this song I swear I've seen someone in the first row crying;it was at that point that I asked myself:'Oh no,man,am I playing it that bad?'" The applause after the performance was mixed with the one recorded 24 years ago in the Concertgebouw,and as Wetton was leaving the stage,an ultra-electrified "Easy Money" rocked the Ballroom side to side. Fripp,of course,did not play a single note but simply acted as "Master of Cerimonies",presenting the artists,talking about future DGM projects and re- leases and,among the general laughter,spitting twice on the ground,the first time talking about his two beloved former managers(of course),the second,at the very end,to announce that all musicians were at disposal in the smaller room for autographs and photos. Many photos were taken during the Playback (sure,I've done many too...)and Fripp pointed out his disappointment about it(however,in a very gently way,coming on stage with a camera himself and telling us that "at Dgm there are no compulsions,just requests"): Tony Levin, by the way,took a picture of the audience,promising to insert it in his internet page(I'll check it out later on...). During the autograph session,I gave my father the hard task to take a picture of myself with every member of the group,and it really worked out fine. I was particularly pleased to meet Richard Palmer-James(never seen before,even in a picture-does anybody of you have one?)and David Cross. When I finally arrived to mr. Fripp,he signed my "ITCOTCK" vinyl making the comic-strip "Buu!" coming out of the "Schizoid Man" mouth;I'm sure someone at the "Epitaph Playback" wrote to ET about having the same particular treatment... Then I finished my breathless trip with Tony Levin(where one of my favourite pictures were taken) and Tony Geballe. When I got back from the daily trip around London,that evening around 11pm, it was quite strange to find Tony Levin's "Trace Elliot" still there,near the stage,as the only remainder of the glorious afternoon just finished in the "Grand Ballroom",now empty. The morning after,coming down from my room to breakfast,one more meeting(the last one)took place,as I found Bill Bruford quietly reading the "Sunday Mir- ror";I had some more chats with him about future KC projects and I asked him how many countries did he finally "reach" the day before during the autographs session(that was a question,it seems,he was doing to everyone who was there- appearently he must have been a little bored,that afternoon). He told me that at the very end there were 16 nations,including the Czech Republic and Mexico (just to let you know,I "checked in" for Italy at #10...). During these few seconds,dad took some more great pictures of the two of us. We then went together to the breakfast room,where we finally said 'goodbye' to each other and,as I returned to my table,he sat at another one very close, waiting for his wife,who arrived some minutes later. This was my personal review of the event and,needless to say,it marks an historic day in my life,leaving my mind free to imagine just how great the "Epitaph Playback" must have been too. Many thanks to the "small,independent unit" and everyone at DGM,they really work hard(thanks for all your help,Diane!). I hope these lines interested you. Love on ya 21 CENTURY SCHIZOID FRANK (FRANCESCO CIPRESSO) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:29:02 -0600 From: Ben Mann Subject: PROJEkt ONE- Improv strength in smaller numbers? Perhaps this Projekt One thing will help Crimson members work on their impovisations within the Double Trio. All the members are great with the 'prov in smaller situations, but the full Double Trio itself has been floundering without a compositional basis. Things simply haven't "gelled" for the six of them. Thrakkattak would have made nice film music, but listening to it was a chore. The six of them seem to be trying not to step on each other's feet, and in doing so not going anywhere. So- will Projekt one rise to the level of "Providence"? Or will they simply produce more Thrak-based Music to Sleep To? The future of Crimson may depend on the answer. One thing's for sure- the improvisations need SERIOUS WORK. Ben Mann / buckmann at concentric dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:59:18 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Draining our pockets >From: "Barrie Sillars" > >Additionally, the entire back catalogue is to be >re-mastered again. Fripp feels that digital technology has progressed >sufficiently since the last re-mastering was undertaken that the time is >now right to re-visit the back catalogue. Good LORD! Is it time for more posts about greed? Eb ------------------------------ From: David MacLennan Subject: Definitive Definitive Editions? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:58:59 +1200 So Fripp & Singleton are going to remaster the KC back catalogue again, eh? I'm pleased to hear this. Hopefully all the missing bits (Bruford's comment on "Larks Tongues", the coda from "Islands" etc.) will be restored to their rightful place. And hopefully the mixes themselves will be restored to their original form: I believe the DE's of "Discipline" for example have guitar lines and things missing. I know Fripp regards the KC back catalogue as being available for revision, but I believe that if he wants to change the music then these should be appended as extra tracks, with the original mixes presented in their original form. Perhaps this time around they might add a bit of value in the packaging department, e.g. some photos, a bit of blurb about the circumstances of the writing/recording etc.? As long as it did not impact greatly on the cost. Which brings me to my final point. Naturally, I'll have to have all of these reissues. But this will be the FOURTH time I've shelled out for these albums: (1) the original vinyl editions, (2) the original CD reissues, (3) the Definitive Editions, and now (4) the "Definitive" Definitive Editions. Maybe they should offer a trade-in on the old CDs :-) David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:57:29 +0000 From: Charles Biel Subject: Daniel Farris speaks the truth. There are two reasons I continue to read this humble digest. (1) The ultimate possibility that I will learn from the postings by the members of K.C. (2) That there is some intelligence out there and sometimes someone speaks the truth. Daniel Farris hit the nail on the head. The truth. Crimson is a thinking persons group playing music that makes you think. When I listen to Crimson I THINK. So I am perplexed with the banning of subjects that we are driven to explore on the digest that is dedicated to the thing that inspired us in the first place.(Read it twice). I recently submitted the suggestion that we take a closer look at the music and perhaps do some analyzing and transcribing. The reaction that I received was astonishing. Things like " the more you learn about something the less mysterious it becomes". Hogwash! (This is a family digest). I am appalled by the idea that we are not free to inspire each other and that the lowest common denominator reigns supreme. There is a lot of garbage included in these editions that read like grade school ramblings. So what kind of damage can a thoughtful musical discussion do? We are asked to sit through what seem to be a series of personal attacks shot back and forth between people who are always misunderstood. (I certainly hope that I am making myself clear and that there is no need for defense of my position.) God forbid that someone might learn something here and walk away a better person instead of reading text that shows the worst side of human relations. IMHO Also I agree that bootlegging is theft. Bootleggers are thieves! If I wish to give away the music I compose I will. If you take my music without my permission you become my enemy. Opposite result from your intention. Assuming you would steal my music because you liked it/me. If you condone the exchange of stolen property and ban intelligent discussion you leave me with only one option. The possibility that I occasionally will read the intelligent writings of Mr. Fripp. A man I do not know but respect highly. In closing I must say that Mr. Farris did make one mistake in his comments. He apologized for the length of his post. Let me say that you owe no apology sir! One should not apologize for excellence, one should seek it. IMHO Chuck Biel Director of Jazz Studies/Recording Arts West Virginia State College ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:20:13 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Tangents, Doctor D, serialism, and community... I really enjoyed digest #419--the playback reports and the substantial discussion as opposed to fan-gush. Daniel Ferris wrote: >Must every word be in reference to KC and >Fripp? (apparently not) Are subsequent tangents inspired by discussions >of KC and RF not acceptable? This happens in 'real' conversation >regularly. [snip] >I must say, as a musician, a recording engineer and an avid Fripp >enthusiast, that I feel my contributions are genuinely unwelcome here. >This would be fine were I not absolutely certain of the validity and >relevance of my remarks and those of others who share an interest in >things non-Crimson as they relate to Crimson. Take heart. You're not alone in this. I can understand the administrators' wanting to discourage messages that would not be readily understood by non-musician readers of ET, but I too find it unfortunate. I've had some interesting private threads with ETers on the "music theory of their music"--maybe that's the solution. Now if there was only a reliable way we could all find each other... meta morphosis wrote: >Has anyone figured out how it is that a song seemingly about the engineer of >an >underground train ended up being called "Doctor Diamond"? the lyrics sound >>close to what i've heard but seem to have absolutely nothing to do with the >>song's title. Call me goofy, but [insert Dana Carvey voice here] could it be...SATAN???? Seriously, I always thought that the persona of the lyric was the Prince of Darkness himself, taking lost souls on a "train to hell" (Crimso's version of "Sympathy for the Devil"?)--and I remember hearing somewhere that some pious folk find playing cards satanic because of the symbols--and the diamond is of course one of the suits. Please let's not let this degenerate into another are-they-or-are-they-not Satanic thread, I'm just giving my spin on answering the question. >Next, i really question the reality of Krimson using serial >composition as a way to write rock music. Due to its long tone row it >would seem very hard to use as a source of improv without someone losing >the order of notes. I can just smell this one getting consigned immediately to the off-limits pile ;-) --so before it does I'd like to offer that maybe such a row could be the "head" of the tune as a basis for improvisation, much as the head to THRAK serves that purpose. >As for me i think Crimson's return was based too much on even trying to >sound a bit like its past (something i've read belew agrees with) Also >it based too many albums on the same new material (vrooom to thrak to >b'boom to thrakkattack).i personally want NEW music that will challenge >me to understand it. Agreement here--there were some new directions hinted at on VROOM but they ran the risk of becoming cul-de-sacs on the subsequent releases. (I do, however, *really* enjoy the Live in Japan video and ThrakAttak [forgot which letters are upper case, sorry!]. [Recently played parts of the latter for a friend and he could only take a few minutes' worth--he looked genuinely panicked! Now I know what to play around the house this Halloween to scare off the trick-or-treaters...ah! but I digress. :)] >Before it all starts again though feel free to disagree but don't tell me my >>opinions are wrong, just different. And that's why we need the presence of you, Eb, Eric Thorson and Auntie Gail, to name a few. While the ideas contained in ET may not always be to our liking, it is a community of sorts. How many of us "get along" with everyone in our town, our workplace--even our apartment building, for you multi-unit dwellers. Get used to difference. To quote Daniel Ferris: >Is it not enough that we all >supposedly share a keen interest in KC and Fripp? Can this list not be >useful for that reason alone? Amen, brother. Kevin Holm-Hudson Department of Academic Studies and Composition Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu It is a curse [having hip parents]. It means you have to veer off and find something that's really horrible and despicable that your parents are not gonna like. It may end up that you're determined to like the Spice Girls precisely because your parents don't like them. -- David Byrne It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. -- The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 02:27:50 -0400 From: dogbones at worldnet dot att dot net Subject: RF's admonition, ETc. A few things. 1. I forwarded the closing of RF's last post to a good friend, who also happens to be a psychologist (specializing in thanatology, btw). She wrote: The musician you admire... has written the most succinct instructions for a great relationship that I have ever read. I hope we talk about this passage many times. For what it's worth, I think she is an extraordinary judge of people. 2. I always assumed The Sheltering Sky was named after the novel by Paul Bowles, one of my favorite authors. It sounds quite appropriate. 3. My two year-old son danced and sang along with ITCotCK and Lizard the first time he heard them. Hey, maybe there is hope for this world? Anyway, it reminded me that KC through the ages has simultaneously appealed to my mind, heart, and gut. Or soul. Up to you. Powerful, compelling combination. Good day, folks. A ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 14:52:04 PST Subject: Performance - Computer vs Human G'day all In ET 419 Mike (I think wrote) >Now I am reminded of how how Keith Jarrett approaches playing Bach >fugues. He considers the actual scores, the black notes on the white >paper, to be works of art in themselves. For his ECM releases, he >insisted on playing them in a purely objective and mechanical way, >without trying to impose his own personality 'signature' or >whatever...I found the results to be really satisfying. This is interesting. The same effect would be acheived by programming the scores straight into a sequencer and letting the computer play the music. Why bother even having a human component? I recently sequenced the KC track TOAPP (which is available on the ET web site (thanks guys)). I quantised every note to it's perfect time and this was the only way that the track sounded perfect. Some music demands time/pitch perfect performance and some demands a players perfomance involvement to move the notes/pitches around. Just an observation. See Ya Mark "Music is the best" - Frank Zappa ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 16:53:05 PST Subject: Home Frippertronics Hi all Yes I'm writing again and taking up bandwidth. But if you want to emulate the old Frippertronics and have a digital delay you can easily do this by increasing your delay time to the maximum and increase the feedback to the point of almost self destruct. To make things even more psychotic try playing with the modulation rate and depth. I have a Rocktron Intellifex and get some outrageous noises like this. Start to add stereo ping-pong and harmonization into this and the neighbors will sell up and move. Lots of fun. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:27:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: "\\yvind Saanum" Subject: Re: Night Watch Playback/Signed shoes I was also attending the playback. Three friends and I were travelling from Norway as journalists from Tarkus magazine, Tarkus Radio and RadiOracle. (All three non-profit, so we all payed the trip ourselves). We came back to Norway with about three ours with interviews on DAT, loads of CDs and Recods, loads of impressions and much less money. I was in London for the first time and managed not to see the Tower, Buckingham Palace, Big Ben etc. We also found out that our English, wish never was any good, became rather terrible when you are supposed to interview your "idols". But the guys were all very nice persons, and we got to interview everyone but that Fripp. On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Mike Dickson wrote: > Between the original artwork for the 'Larks Tongues' sleeve and the new > 'Night Watch' cover, Fripp takes the small stage and in his best Dorest > asks us 'Are You Ready To Rock?'. I thought he was joking. Not many other than me screamed YES, so I think most of us was taken aback as well. =20 > Bruuuuuuuford then appeared in a manner which suggested he was being > chased onto the podium by a man threatening his behind with a cattle > prod, spoke about his new CD (the name of which eludes me right now) and > followed up with a couple of tracks from this as well. How can you call what he did "spoke about his new CD"? He held a fantastic speech about hotel lobbies, annoying fans and how to use them for your own good. > in the Jazz Club. There then followed the usual stampede for the door to > get the goodies signed by all five members of the band. Funny that - > we're a King Crimson audience. We are sophisticates. We can tap our foot > in twenty one. We can also be reduced to wibbling teeny-boppers at the > prospect of getting our hands on a signature or two! (Some curious > individual offered his shoe for signature. I'm not quite sure what to > make of that.) Ahem..., that curious individual was me. And I'm not quite sure what to make of it either. I was just wearing my CRIMSON shoes for the occasion. The shoes are maybe more disco-RED than CRIMSON, and might look like ONE MORE RED NIGHTMARE. Anyway my friends and I were discussing wether we ought to get more of our CDs to get signed (we had left them in the press room). Then in a flash of absurdity (wich happens quite often to me...) I thought about the shoes. Maybe that was stupid (it obviously was), but it has made me probably the only person in the world owning a pair of red/crimson shoes signed by almost all in King Crimson. Robert didn't sign though (maybe because they looked like one more red nightmare, hope you wasn't offended Robert.) Well, I certainly hope to get to another playback some time. It's great! Cheers Oyvind Saanum=09=09Student of Astro-Physics at University of Oslo Anarcist, proghead and Vangelis-fan from planet GONG http://www.uio.no/-oyvinsa ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 18:38:28 PST Subject: ET 415 Hi All In ET415 Dave D asked "Fripp, Belew, and Gabrels often go without conventional amplifiers, opting instead for digital speaker simulators and using the PA. Has anyone out there made this leap? Why?" Yes Dave I have and it's the coolest. Yes it costs a lot more but the versatility kills any other setup (unless your a super rich Rock Star that can afford Multiple Amps and a Bradshaw rig). To put it simply I use a MIDI Pre-Amp, Midi Digital effects, MIDI pedal board (to control the other two, Graphic EQ, Power Amp Mixer and a pair of PA speakers. Its a bit more to lug around most people ( and fellow musos) and said to me "What an awesome sound" so I reckon it's worth the expense. You have to choose you tools carefully though. To get the full low down check out my Web Site at www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/1962/index.html. I'll shut up for today now. Regards to all Mark ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #420 ********************************