Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #419 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 419 Thursday, 18 September 1997 Today's Topics: Chilling and Organic DGM Playback, September 13th, 1997 Jimmy Mac The King Crimson Playback (The Night Watch) Night Watch Playback Doctor Diamond Lyrics KC Releases reviews at ET Web divers alarums Norm Waitt, Jnr. What's wrong with a band only playing their "hits"? Re: Nightwatch (??) NightWatch Playback Quasi-embarrasing Krimson Factoid... Robert the Human Being Re: Pleasure in Pieces M-op Tops? Is this the right L. Jazz Cafe ? ProjecKt I!!!! Re: Research with smaller units G3 Colorado Power Tingles Pleasures/Toyah/Frippery/Meanings to life and do they belong here? new fripp-o-sonics --- http://www.discipline.co.uk/news/news.htm Re: Recommendations (Eno) Re - The New Bill Bruford Album What does it mean? Igor and Bela and Larks' Tongues in Aspic Comments re:Floyd, KC, supervision Moderation / Piotr's Response to RF Basile Tingles Re - The New Bill Bruford Album Bruford's Compositional Abilites ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Subject: Chilling and Organic Date: Sun, 14 Sep 97 10:55:25 -0000 From: In message , camuscar at globaldialog dot com writes >QUOTED: I don't know how much of a natural musician he is since (please, no >flames on this one) his playing feels laboured (could be a part of his >style/training). Nevertheless, he plays from the heart, so that's pretty >much all that matters, doesn't it? >Funny, I feel just the opposite. My take is that RF's playing is fluid as >opposed to labored, and that he plays from his hands much more than his >heart. >Mike Reminds me of a comment RF made at the 'Gates of Paradise' Playback in June about playing for 12 hours at the Union Chapel London. To paraphrase - There was a point after several hours where he'd reached the edge of his technique, where his hands got to the point where his fluidity as a player was a redundant question, and he had entered a terra incognita where he had to discover a new language of expression for the guitar. The reason I like Fripp's playing, for all its technical gloss of perfection, is that it tears my heart out and alters my brain chemistry. There is passion there, ruled by discipline admittedly, but never the chilling cerebral quality that Mike associates with RF's playing. Neil Talbott ----- I find it it interesting that you interpreted my post to mean that I believe that Fripp plays in a chilling/cerebral manner, when in fact no subjective or affective-type adjectives of any kind were used to describe my own feelings about his playing. Not that there's anything wrong with being chilling, cerebral, mechanical, or calculated, these all being qualities that Fripp has used extensively and in a way that only he can do. Now I am reminded of how how Keith Jarrett approaches playing Bach fugues. He considers the actual scores, the black notes on the white paper, to be works of art in themselves. For his ECM releases, he insisted on playing them in a purely objective and mechanical way, without trying to impose his own personality 'signature' or whatever...I found the results to be really satisfying. Mike ------------------------------ From: "Barrie Sillars" Subject: DGM Playback, September 13th, 1997 Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:50:11 +0100 The third London playback this year was held to preview current releases by DGM artists, Tony Geballe, Tony Levin, Bill Bruford and King Crimson. Prior to the main event, the invited were able to buy copies of the releases as well as other merchandise such as the soundscapes calendar, postcards of the Epitaph playback and T-shirts. These playback events are becoming like mini conventions. As well as the merchandise, a couple of mellotrons were on display and the new DGM internet web service was also demonstrated. The playback itself commenced with Tony Geballe playing a couple of numbers on acoustic 12-string. This was followed by a track from his first solo album. Both were greeted with enthusiastic response from the audience. Tony Levin followed, playing an improvised piece on upright bass. He also took digital photographs of the audience in response to those taken by the audience, which were against Fripps' wishes. A track from his album with Jerry Marotta and Steve Gorn was also played. Bill Bruford then took to the stage, where he gave an amusing and informative introduction to the background to his recording with Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez. He berated those fans who keep heckling him on why he doesn't play with Jon Anderson and Chris Squire. It was under a similar circumstance that a fan asked why he didn't play with Ralph Towner and Eddie Gomez. To him that seemed a much more enticing idea. Fripp then introduced John Wetton, who had just arrived that morning from Rome where he had been playing the previous evening. He gave an acoustic rendition of Book of Saturday, which was swiftly followed by the playback of Easy Money from The Nightwatch recording, the reason why most people were here. The Nightwatch is a double CD of the original live recording from the November 23rd 1973 concert at the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam. Parts of this recording were used as the basis for the Starless and Bible Black album. It has now been restored, with most of the overdubs taken off. The sound quality of the restoration is quite wonderful, excelling anything from The Great Deceiver box set. The booklet is designed in a similar format to that for the Epitaph box set, with plenty of notes and photographs, not seen before. The cover is from a painting by Pam Crook, whose painting was also used for the Epitaph box. She was also in attendance at the playback. Fripp mentioned that planned future releases would also have cover paintings by her, including something called, I think DejaVROOM, of which he just said more about that at another time. Fripp introduced both David Cross and Richard Palmer-James to complete the '73 line-up. In fact he said that this was the first time he could recall that all members plus Palmer-James had ever been together before. Prior to the end of the playback event, Fripp mentioned some upcoming events. This included concerts in London in early December by PROJEkT ONE. Fripp believes that the potential of the double trio format of KC is nowhere near reaching where it can go and hence a number of sub-units of KC are being set-up to try various ideas. The first of these is PROJEkT ONE, which comprises Fripp, Bruford, Gunn and Levin. They will play a number of improvised sessions at the Jazz Cafe in London. Further side projects to be announced. At the close of the playback, a few minutes from the latest rehearsals by KC recorded in Nashville were played. These were instrumental pieces, more complex, electronic and even funky than anything from THRAK, but clearly Crimson. Lastly, at the autograph signing session, I chatted to Fripp about the release of USA. He said this is going ahead now, but will probably not be released until next year. Additionally, the entire back catalogue is to be re-mastered again. Fripp feels that digital technology has progressed sufficiently since the last re-mastering was undertaken that the time is now right to re-visit the back catalogue. This will be available next year, released with minimal publicity. Here we go again folks! See you at the next playback, which will probably be for archive recordings of the 80's KC as Belew is sorting that out now. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:56:39 -0400 (EDT) From: "Alexander L. Kaufman" Subject: Jimmy Mac Dear ETers, I was paging through a recent _Sports Illustrated_ mag from July 21, 1997. It was a special issue focusing on their most unforgettable portraits of all time. One such portrait was of Jim McMahon showing his "classic" sunglasses and top hat of the Chicago Bears memorable year of 1985. The photographer was one Bill Smith. It's a wild photo, one that screams the 1980s. On another note, non-KC, sorry, John Cale's new/old cd _Music from the Andy Warhol Films "EAT/KISS"_ is full of tingles. It has a good amount Infinite Guitar, harrowing vocals, and all the atmosphere of a Warhol film; in short it is truly worth checking out. Until next time, Alex K. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 16:02:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: The King Crimson Playback (The Night Watch) Well, I went and quite frankly the album is fantastic. Tony Levin has a new one out which was premiered there called "From The Caves Of The Iron Mountain" which was actually recorded inside a cave. There was a surprise appearence from John Wetton and his performance of The Night Watch was also, may I say, fantastic. I spoke to TLevin myself and he said that he would put pictures of the event up on his web site (sorry, no email address!), but you'll have to wait a couple of days. http://papabear.com/tlev.htm It's interesting at the moment, none the less. Camzone ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 00:17:08 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Night Watch Playback Between the original artwork for the 'Larks Tongues' sleeve and the new 'Night Watch' cover, Fripp takes the small stage and in his best Dorest asks us 'Are You Ready To Rock?'. I thought he was joking. Tony Geballe started the afternoon off by playing some of the most fluid and downright busy twelve string guitar pieces from his CD 'Native Of The Rain'. At one point towards the start of the second extract I could have sworn he sprouted ten fingers on each hand. The stage was then occupied by Tony Levin who took bass and bow in hand and improvised some of the most extraordinary, subterranean sounds with it. Prior to kicking off he announced that he 'didn't know what he was going to play'. The small red devil on my left shoulder was prodding me into shouting out 'Starless' but fortunately I was apprehended in the nick of time. Afterwards a couple of tracks from his (absolutely recommended) new CD 'From The Caves Of The Iron Mountain' were played. Bruuuuuuuford then appeared in a manner which suggested he was being chased onto the podium by a man threatening his behind with a cattle prod, spoke about his new CD (the name of which eludes me right now) and followed up with a couple of tracks from this as well. When John Wetton walked up to the stage he appeared to be like a man in a hurry, not helped by the fact that he had been on stage only twelve hours prior to the event in Rome. With the minimum of introduction John then played 'Book Of Saturday' which (I thought) made sparks fly off the walls. For music to be ** absolutely electrifying ** it doesn't take volume or even what passes for overt technical virtuosity. It just takes John Wetton and a guitar singing a song from twenty five years ago. Richard Palmer-James and David Cross were invited onto the set. They waved and left. (Much disappointment with Cross that the gold suit wasn't evident. As if.) Two extracts from 'The Night Watch' were played - 'Easy Money' and the first four or so minutes of 'Schizoid Man', and the artist formerly known as 'Bob' gave a terse lecture on The Business, packaging his saliva for sale in the foyer and the forthcoming Project One appearance in the Jazz Club. There then followed the usual stampede for the door to get the goodies signed by all five members of the band. Funny that - we're a King Crimson audience. We are sophisticates. We can tap our foot in twenty one. We can also be reduced to wibbling teeny-boppers at the prospect of getting our hands on a signature or two! (Some curious individual offered his shoe for signature. I'm not quite sure what to make of that.) After the slowly snaking queue filtered out it was time for more coffee and biccies and (for me, anyway) the absolute highlight of the day. In the foyer there were two Mellotrons, one of which (I understand) was As Played By King Crimson and the other of which was stripped down to give an inside view of the workings. John Bradley - the son of Les, the inventor of said instrument - and Martin Smith from Streetly Electronics were there to explain the goings on about these Thoroughly Analogue Monsters. I then proceeded to hog one of the 'Trons for the best part of an hour, during which time John made my mind up for me - I have to have one of these things. Hear that G minor? That's THAT SOUND. That's 'Starless'. Jesus! Quite a day, all round! As for 'The Night Watch' itself, I can only say that it's 'most recommended'. Those of us who have struggled on with the bootleg version(s) of the Concertgebouw 23/11/73 gig have nothing to lose but our edits. Or even our overdubs. (*) It's certainly nice to be able to *hear* this stuff for a change. The sound quality is markedly better than 'Starless And Bible Black' which gives you some idea just how far ahead of the bootleg this is. Of the two CDs that comprise this set, disc #2 has to be my favourite, kicking off with the exquisite 'Trio', moving on to 'Exiles' (which seems a little hurried at points - it might be my ears) and then coming onto an improv called 'The Fright Watch' which contains some of the Bass Beast's most vicious licks, all of which gradually and magnificently coalesces into the familiar riff that becomes 'The Talking Drum'. Familiar as I am with this version from the 'Frame By Frame' set, it still takes me aback. I have to confess that I was trying iron some clothes whilst listening to this track and I found that I had to stop since the prospect of me destroying my shirts came into the horizon. As Robert quotes from the liner notes, the 'monstrous live creature' might never have made its full impact onto a recording but if it still hasn't then this effort is definitely a shot off the woodwork. The climactic version of 'Schizoid Man' is one of the most dreadfully worrying and absolutely breathtaking things I've ever heard come out of my speakers. This stuff could blister paint at fifty yards. Crazy band, crazy CD, crazy day out! Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Fax 0131-653-6124 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Columnated Ruins Domino (*) On the matter of overdubs, a question - hopefully for Fripp but arguably for anyone else that cares to volunteer an idea; for someone as keen as he on the live document, why were both 'USA' and 'Starless and Bible Black' released with overdubs? Just curious. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:06:35 -0400 (EDT) From: cstrouc1 at ic3 dot ithaca dot edu Subject: Doctor Diamond Lyrics I have been lurking quite saome time now, and figured ths would be as good time as any to chime in... I found a couple spots in Dr. D. where I greatly disagree on the lyrics derived thus far. I'm not 100% sure, but many of them fit dead-on or at least seem a lot closer: [Fast singing] I'm the driver of an underground train This world to me is all the same, Keep your houses and your kids inside, I never know who will drive my train to hell, and not a soul would know! I'm the driver of an underground train. Many who wear the memory, the legends of my name, Boy, it's such a simple word, Comes from an open mind he looked me in the face, and he made the fatal sign. [Ballad] I am the driver of an underground train. Lonely life can't bother me, far away from wind and rain. I come upon the station lights, with a mighty rushing sound. Through this amore, for the private life, I drive around. [Syncopated part] I'm the driver of an underground train. Climb aboard, just climb aboard. Your loss is my eternal gain. Squeeze your precious body in, before I quickly close the door. Climb in, let's all get up. Your life is mine, my life in yours! Hope this is a step closer (?)... I love Doctor Diamond and if I knew what it really means, I'm sure it would be lot cooler. Christian Stroucken ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:01:27 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: KC Releases reviews at ET Web To all ETers, When we added the King Crimson Releases section to ET Web a year and a half ago, you were invited to submit your reviews of each release, which I added to the appropriate web page. At this time I'd like to ask that you *hold off* on submitting any new ones, as we have already quite a lot, and I'm basically inundated right now with a huge backlog of reviews I've still yet to add to the pages. When I get through that lot I will consider accepting new reviews. At the same time, by popular demand, I am adding new pages dedicated to Robert Fripp related releases. These will follow the same format as that used for the KC Releases pages, and you will be invited to send in reviews for those too. However, it will be an ongoing project for me to get pages out for these releases, so again I ask for your patience in the matter. One thing you could assist me with would be getting images of the record covers, of which I unfortunately have only a few. Favored dimensions: 150x150 pixels. GIF or JPG (Windows formats only) accepted. Thanks for your help. Dan ET Web Now back to your regularly scheduled burble, banter, bicker, bicker, bicker... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:58:51 +1300 From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: divers alarums QUOTE: I'm looking for a copy of Fripp/League of Gentlemen on CD. The one with the pink cover with a drawing of a cat or something on it. I had the LP, but got rid of it when moving over to CD, sadly I have never been able to replace it. Does it exist ? Many thanks JD: Some good news and some bad news. A CD exists called "The league of gentlemen/God save the king" (Editions EG, EEGCD9). The bad news is that it only contains some of the tracks from the LP "League of Gentlemen", and some from "God Save the King/Under Heavy Manners". We're still waiting for the other tracks from the two records to be released on CD. QUOTE: But it's a great idea. Anyone here want to arrange King Crimson songs for marching band? I could see some of the orchestral sounding pre-Wetton stuff going perfectly, as I could see LTiA 1. JD: From the more recent stuff, "Dinosaur" would definitely work well! Re: "home Frippertronics", I have been working on a piece played with an ovation running through an Ibanez delay III pedal set to maximum. That is only just over 1 second, but it still produces some tasty effects. The piece, still very embryonic, I have called "Name: George", both in tribute to George Harrison (the progressions I am using are based roughly on the Beatles song 'The Inner Light') and Fripp, who apparently knows a man whose name... Oh, and re "meaningful" lyrics, as a long time fan of Brian Eno, famed for his "do they mean anything?" lyrics, I can only add this comment from one of my favourite Talking Heads songs (co-written by Eno, and upon which Fripp guested): "A bim beri glassala glandrid e glassala tuffm i zimbra!" James ------------------------------ From: Mark Lewin Subject: Norm Waitt, Jnr. Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 21:59:43 -0700 Organization: greenlake.com Visiting the WWW page (http://www.discipline.co.uk/tracks/9705tra.htm) for Bill Bruford's new album, I noticed this credit: Executive Producer: Norm Waitt, Jnr. Is this the same Norm who co-founded, with brother Ted, Gateway 2000? I remember him leaving the company back in the early 90's, but in visiting the GW2K site, it appears he's been expunged from the corporate history books. Assuming the same Waitt, what's his relationship to Bruford and/or DGM? Mark ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 03:06:40 -0500 Subject: What's wrong with a band only playing their "hits"? Ooooh, here we go again. Actually, before i dive into that abyss i've got a couple unrelated questions of my own. Has anyone figured out how it is that a song seemingly about the engineer of an underground train ended up being called "Doctor Diamond"? the lyrics sound close to what i've heard but seem to have absolutely nothing to do with the song's title. Next, i really question the reality of Krimson using serial composition as a way to write rock music. Due to its long tone row it would seem very hard to use as a source of improv without someone losing the order of notes. Maybe an instrumental would be possible in some way, though i would think a song would need a serial melody which again seems to hard to deal with. i guess the final question i would have is why work so hard making it work when its actual appeal beyond a "we did it!" kind of challenge would seem very limited. In a response to the 70's vs. 90's Crimson appeal to younger hip audiences I see 2 ways of looking at it. one is that with Pat Mastelotto playing a straighter backbeat through 90's music that may put the new band in favor of the old. However in the oposite direction I think the 70's era band put across the bleak depressive atmosphere better than the 90's version. I personally don't want to hear Belew's quirky and humerous popness that the 90's stuff sometimes has. The feel of 70's Crimson was somehow more "real" to me. I think primarily due to the Belew factor I often find myself enjoying Fripp's non- crimson music more (r.f.string quintet, Guitar Craft, even 10 seconds) Finally, and last but not certainly least, the dreaded ELP playin' the hits vs. new Crimson music is once again mentioned by John Quint who asks " what's wrong with a band touring and only playing what their fans want to hear?" The answer is nothing as long as that's what the band wants to do. the problem arises when fans try to tell the band what to do. Crimson for me would not be crimson if they toured with the hits like john would prefer and john has no right to ask them to. It is obvious which band is doing it for the money because one of them has a greater fear in not giving the fans what they want. Crimson takes greater risks by playing new music. Music to those that write it is about the creation of new music. If a band were truly based upon this they couldn't stand to NOT write new music let alone continue to play arrangements of other people's music. (unless they deep down know their best music is behind them). Its also easier to look "really cool" playing music you've done for 20 years. You don't have to think so much. As for me i think Crimson's return was based too much on even trying to sound a bit like its past (something i've read belew agrees with) Also it based too many albums on the same new material (vrooom to thrak to b'boom to thrakkattack).i personally want NEW music that will challenge me to understand it. So, anyway I have braced myself for the obvious wave of "how dare you's" coming my way. Before it all starts again though feel free to disagree but don't tell me my opinions are wrong, just different. ------------------------------ From: "Sal Pichireddu" <21st dot century dot schizoid dot man at gmx dot net> Organization: The Court of the Crimson King Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:56:09 +2000 Subject: Re: Nightwatch (??) Hi, on Sep, 14th "schmad" wrote... > I've probably got 10 different boot versions of the Concertgebouw > show, but none of these come close to DGM's just-released > Nightwatch. So *is* it released in Europe or was it only aviable on the playback in London? Oh, how I wish to listen to this classic performances as soon as possible... Tomorrow ;-) Seriously: Does anybody know the exact release date? > The sound's pristine, and the accompanying booklet > tells the whole story. Yup, that's what I expected - we're already used to these kind of superb and very personal liner notes Greetings Sal PS.: Today I saw a car with a KC- Sticker on the back. It was almost like... Karma. ;-) I knew, I had to contribute a few lines to ET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:14:33 -0400 From: Sid Smith Subject: NightWatch Playback Well, it was one hell of a do. For me, this period of Crimson is / was my favourite so it held a particularly special magic seeing them all re-united even if it was only an autograph table rather than on a stage. Icing on the cake was provided by the presence of a Mellotron or two, the appearance and playing of Tony Gebelle, Tony Levin and particularly John Wetton performing Book Of Saturday - something which I last saw him do at Birmingham Town Hall, 28th October 1973. The atmosphere of camaraderie and sheer excitement was wonderful and even though the queues for merchandising etc., lasted an hour or so it didn't spoil the buzz that was going around the place. As ever, the DGM staff were polite, helpful and attentive all of which made the day go very well indeed. Call me a sentimental old git but I got a particularly huge thrill to be able to see the original cover art for LTI A and to grab a 30 second conversation with Richard Palmer-James. The playback itself could have been a little bit longer but I guess that we wouldn't have been able to fit in all the signings which people wanted. The couple of minutes of the new KC rehearsals was interesting particularly as it sounded as though they added Hammond Organ to the line up - ah thewonders of the digital age. Almost as good as seeing the band and almost worth travelling to London for was meeting up with Crimheads in the Rose & Crown pub handily located in the next street to the Hotel Inter - Continental. There were people from Cornwall, London, Birmingham, Bradford, Holland and Australia. Heading up the USA delegation was non other than Epitaph veteran and connoisseur of jet lag - Robert Cevero. And blow me if Michael Giles and John Wetton didn't turn up for a pint as well. The rest of the evening was spent consuming more beer than is good for men of a certain age and swapping Crimson quotes and legends. Great stuff. I wouldn't have missed it for the world. Now if only I can get the time off work to make the Projekct One gigs in December. I spent the train back to newcastle the next day playing all the new goodies. Crivens, there's some stunning music on those CD's. Thanks DGM. ------------------------------ From: Matt Walsh Subject: Quasi-embarrasing Krimson Factoid... Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 10:19:00 PDT I don't know how common knowledge this is... Sunday night was one of those rare moments where I didn't have anything to do. I was flipping channels on TV when I noticed that VH-1 was about to air a documentary on the whole Milli Vanilli "scandal". Being intriqued by hearing about the destruction of the careers of these phonies, I decided to watch. Well, they were showing the back of the album where the performance credits were, and had to do a double-take when I saw this above Rob & Fab's vocal credits: Saxophone: Mel Collins I would assume this is the same Mel Collins that we all know. Is It? Is this a wide-known fact? Maybe this explains why people tend not to like "Lizard" and "Islands" as much as the others ;) One other thing... I was looking on the ET Web, and after looking at the picture on the homepage (the one with all the albums), I noticed that one of the albums was one I have never seen before (that I can recall). It's the one in between "Islands" and the "SSEDD" single. If someone could reply to me privately (unless you think that the rest of this list would be interested), let me know. Matt Walsh mattw at smginc dot com Currently listening to: Faith No More - "Album Of The Year" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:36:09 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Robert the Human Being Robert said..... "In seeing your own nature, compassion for what I bear in seeing and knowing myself might arise within you." Although I have never felt too comfortable guessing at Fripp's internal gearworks, I have long thought this this might be at the bottom of some of Fripp's actions. Perhaps some of Fripp's running away from Praise has more to do with getting away from his own tendency to need it, than anything else. And although I can only claim a tiny bit of wisdom for myself, I have found in my own life that it is probably near-futile to try to pretend one doesn't have deep-seated emotional needs that we look outward to fulfill (nevermind to try to overcome this tendency). If one, however, can be fully aware of this fundamental lack, or one's own feeling-of-poverty in the soul, then you've come a pretty long way. So I say cheers to you, Robert. A fellow mortal, working hard not to be overcome by the curses of being blessed with an exceptional gift. I am wounded by these words. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:09:30 -0700 From: relph at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com (John Relph) Subject: Re: Pleasure in Pieces Gideon B Banner asked: > >I found a bootleg in a record store in San Francisco called _Pleasure in >Pieces_, but didn't buy it as it was quite expensive. > But it piqued my curiosity: what >kind of stuff is this? Is Fripp doing similar work to the early >Frippertronics work? And who is the woman on the album? This is taken from the Robert Fripp discography: Robert Fripp: Pleasures In Pieces . . . . . . . . . . bootleg 1978 Recorded live at the Kitchen in Soho, NYCNY, on February 5, 1978. Audience tape. R. F. (guitar, frippertronics & devices) Joanna Walton & Friends (vocal interlude) LPx2: 1978 AT Lunar Tones/ALM LOONY 2S-10 24'35 The Second 7'10 The First 8'35 The Voice 12'20 The Third 11'50 The Fourth 10'15 The Fifth Robbie asked: > >I'm looking for a copy of Fripp/League of Gentlemen on CD. The one with the >pink cover with a drawing of a cat or something on it. >I had the LP, but got rid of it when moving over to CD, sadly I have never >been able to replace it. Does it exist ? The short answer is NO. There is a CD which contains some tracks from that LP, but not all, and not in their original form. The LP contained lots of intertrack gabble, a couple of Barry Andrews organtronics pieces, and other stuff, which the CD omits. However, the CD is an enjoyable listen. It's called _God Save the King_. -- John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:44:55 +0000 From: Tim Salmon Organization: ucsf Subject: M-op Tops? M-Op Tops? From: TiM SaLMoN Regarding this excerpt from ET #416: Subject: Tell me about M'Boom From: Nameless to the Goddess >Here is what I know about M'Boom, by Max Roach: The fantastic song, "B'Boom," was named after this.< And here am I thinking "M'Boom" was a new Fripp/Hanson collaboration, in the same vein as the one by Mr. Belew recently did with those delightful blond siblings: "M-Bop Zop Too Wah"... ------------------------------ Subject: Is this the right L. Jazz Cafe ? Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 19:41:06 -0000 From: Andrea Tolin Hi, I'm looking to travel from Italy to London for one night to see the guys (PROJEkCT ONE) show. Is the following address right for the London Jazz Cafe ? I think I have to put a reservation now..... London Jazz Caf=E9 5 Parkway, NW1 (0171 916 6060). Camden Town tube/N93 bus. Thanks in advance. Andrea Italy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:27:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierron3 at aol dot com Subject: ProjecKt I!!!! I am so glad to hear Crimson's doing something!! ProjecKt 1 sounds exciting!! anyone have more info? Mike Pierron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:34:48 From: "David G. Dixon" Subject: Re: Research with smaller units Concerning the smaller "recherche" KC units: I, for one, think it is a brilliant idea (especially the unrehearsed, group improvisation aspect), and I am, in fact, quite surprised that Mssrs. Fripp, et al., hadn't thought of it sooner (he/they probably did, and I just didn't know). In fact, I would be in avant-rock heaven if twoo additional things happened: 1) The ranks of KC opened to include other likeminded individuals and/or trios who could make contributions in kind (my suggestion, of course: Polytown, or how about the trio which supported Andy Rinehart on his unbelievably amazing debut (comprising Messrs. Torn, Karn, and Wortman), and which seems unable to attain a wider audience?) Say, wouldn't it be really neat if one of the configurations opened for the other? The possibilities are endless! The subgroups could even develop pieces as, say, duets or trios, which could then be explored with a larger group later on in the same performance! (Gasp, pant!! That was so good, I could use a cigarette!) 2) One or more of these smaller groups could come to Vancouver, BC, Canada for a concert(s) in the not-too-distant future! Mr. Fripp: Good-on-ya!! (You're looking distinctly less wretched from this corner!) Dave Dixon Vancouver, BC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:42:41 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: G3 Colorado Power Tingles Hello, G3 Tickets for Colorado are on sale. Now! The woman at Mommoth offices lied to me. Well, I suppose she only told me what she knew at the time. Anyway they are thru Ticketmaster, which also contradicts what she told me. So there,I am telling you. Could we start a disscussion on songs that give Power Tingles? The most obvious being Red?Also I thought of some other great Tingles, like all of everything Julie Discroll does. Her version of All Blues with Brian Auger on the old classic Street Noise for instance. And I totaly agree about Family giving Tingles, Observations from A Hill was the best. Does any one know what Roger Chapman is up to? Was it true he was doing under water diving for a living? Lasrt I heard from him was a live in Germany LP many years ago. Also the more i thought about Toyahs ' music the more I thought that the music is very good for it' genere, and of corse the stuff she did on Ophellia was excellent, so I have decided that she really does surround herself with the best of whatever she is up to. Even if it isn't Prog! Ha! ET phone home, Gail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 16:42:44 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: Pleasures/Toyah/Frippery/Meanings to life and do they belong here? Hello All, The bootleg Pleasures in Pieces is by far one of my most favorite Fripp albums. It was well worth the money I spent so many years ago, it has the taste of what I remember the live Frippertronics being like. It is something that I have played and replayed often. Recommend it greatly. Has anyone other than me noticed that David Bowies' song "Law" sounds quite alot like Toyahs' "Now and Then X Rated Dance Mix" ? It really does! (No, I haven't done those sorts of drugs in years!) It has me thinking that there ought to be a Toyah Bowie collaberative tour... the platform shoes alone would be tremendous! Fripp is not a guru. He does help people find themselves thru his music. This seems to be an important part of his musical output . It seems to be of interest to many of us readers and I do think because Fripp seems to ocassionaly expound on his philosophy it is relevent to these pages.Philosophy is congruant to music. Metaphysics, Occult and Spiritualism are all well within the framework of the music we are discussing here. There is always somesort of magic behind the muse even if it's only wonder. If you don't want to read about all our opinions on this you can always skip over them! It has been my opinion since the first time I heard Frippertronics that RF was very involved with the concept of the new melenium. That was the impression I received from where the music took me. And Exposure backs it up particuraly with the placement of Here Come The Flood, and Mr. Bennetts excerpts. It is my opinion that Fripps' music is vibrationaly saving, healing and uplifting to this planet. Which I am sure is too weird and cosmic and you will all want to flame me now. However I will say one more thing one this: Don't think End Times,think of a New Beginning...that's what the new aeon is really about. Don't buy into the fear, focus on the uplifting ,responsability and joy. If any of you like British Blues I can't recommend the new comp "Knights of The Blues Table"enough...yeah I know there i no obvious KC link but i bet Bill Bruford sat around smokey London Clubs listening to this sort of stuff once. It's great! Yes, there's still good fairys, Auntie Gail ------------------------------ From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: new fripp-o-sonics --- http://www.discipline.co.uk/news/news.htm Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:29:37 -0400 If you haven't been to the ET Web-site recently, you may not have stumbled across these tidbits...Looks like there will be some new Fripp-o-sonics. I'm especially interested in how PROJEkCt ONE turns out. David Kirkdorffer http://www.discipline.co.uk/news/news.htm King Crimson's 1971 album Islands returns to the Virgin Records catalogue. Robert Fripp and David Singleton have completed the remastering of this, the only studio release by the Robert, Mel, Boz and Ian lineup. Islands was noticeably absent from the remastered Crimson back-catalogue until now, due to a technical error during the remastering in 1989. Release is anticipated before the end of the year. PROJEkCT ONE, the first of several planned King Crimson sub-group projects will take place at the Jazz Cafe in London for four nights in December. The practical difficulties of King Crimson working together are immense: huge expense, expectation from audiences of established King Crimson repertoire, and major logistical problems. An alternative approach is for smaller units within the Double Trio to work together, privately and publicly. The aim of these smaller Crimson projeKcts is to function as Research & Development for the Greater Crim. PROJEkCT ONE features music improvised by Crimson members Bill Bruford, Robert Fripp, Trey Gunn and Tony Levin. Jazz Cafe Dec 1- 4, 1997. Robert Fripp will be playing a Soundscapes benefit concert in Newlyn Church, Cornwall on December 6th. Original artwork by John Miller, whose paintings feature on the Soundscapes CD series, and Peter Willis, will be on display in the church. Robert Fripp returns to the G3 tour second leg in September, opening the shows for Kenny Wayne Shepherd, Steve Vai and Joe Satriani. Robert performs Soundscapes with maybe a little help from his friends, and joins the G3 jam at the close of the show. Arrive early to catch the Soundscapes which may begin as early as 5pm. ------------------------------ From: Tim Meadowcroft Subject: Re: Recommendations (Eno) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 01:11:08 +0100 >> From: btomko at glasscity dot net >> Can anyone tell me which recordings by Gentle Giant, UK, Jethro >> Tull, and Brian Eno are the best for a new listener? Much as I love KC and RF, I still maintain that if I had to destroy all my music but 4 CD's, at least 3 would be Eno's "solo" albums (appearances from RF and many others), most notably "Here Come The Warm Jets", "Another Green World" and "Taking Tiger Mountain (By Strategy)" (probably RF's Exposure to fill the gap and yes, I do listen to more, but it is a cheap throwaway line). Oh, and these 3 are usually the cheapest too. HCTWJ and TTM are mostly quirky, addictive, insidious "pop" tunes. First few listens and you'll wonder why, then you'll find yourself singing "Blank Frank has a memeory bank as cold as an iceberg" and you're hooked. AGW features more early ambient stuff, stuff you'll recognise from TV documentaries etc. RF lays down discrete, intense burning guitar riffs on selected tracks, some of his guest best work IMHO. Later work includes all the Ambient series, NerveNet, The Drop, etc., graduate to these once you've got and appreciated AGW. Overt collaberation works (Byrne, Cale, Budd, Fripp, etc.) tend to be be more homogenous than the more eclectic solo works (cf Fripp's "solo" Exposure and, say, Fripp and Sylvian). If Eno does tour the White Cube "art installation" as he promises, go to that too. The others, GG etc. not really my bag, sorry. I've heard them, but they do little for me. Tim PS. we don't need this fascist (vinyl vs plastic) groove thang. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re - The New Bill Bruford Album It's called "If Only Summer Had It's Ghosts". The other albums released there were called (as most may know) Native Of The Rain (Tony Geballe), "From The Caves Of The Iron Mountain" (Levin/Marotta/Gorn) and "The Night Watch/Concertgebouw" (King Crimson 1973 Line-up). On a personal note, I hope the next playback isn't in America, although it really shouldn't be, since King Crimson is mostly an English Band. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:06:31 -0500 From: Eric Thorson Subject: What does it mean? Hi, Folks. There have been a few posts lately denigrating the work of those who would use this newsletter as a forum for "metaphysical", "religious", "new-age", or"philosophical" discussions, "tangential" to Fripp/KC music. Related to these, I believe, are the complaints of those who dislike the copious liner notes included in Fripp/KC releases (which the listeners are free to ignore). It seems we have a conflict between the thinkers and the feelers here. Fripp would say that "What we do is inseperable from how and why we do it." It seems clear to me that making music for him is not merely an exercise in tickling your eardrums, or nailing them to the wall. Music is being thought of and used (and using these performers) as a language with meaning, and as such has claims to make on our entire beings, not just the ears. An episcopal priest who was interested in Gurdjieff once identified my "sin of choice" as the need to percieve. This is the sort of person who reads the liner notes to the CD before listening to it. I have been long attracted to Fripp and King Crimson music because it holds many rewards to those who approach music with the intellect, and also holds the potential for subverting the same intellect when it becomes oppressive. I am a little surprised that fans who purchase and listen to records and songs like "Epitaph", "1999", "The First Day", and "The Gates of Paradise" would prefer to bang their heads and restrict conversation to tablatures and tingles (Worthy topics, don't get me wrong) when the question of meaning (F- the relationship between performer and audience is truth) seems so central to the appreciation of this music, and, as evidenced by the discussion in this newsletter, when there are such diverse responses to this question among the listeners. "Saved by silence, saved by noise" Eric J. Thorson ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" Subject: Igor and Bela and Larks' Tongues in Aspic Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:18:22 PDT ET 412: >From: Neil Talbott neil at antescher dot demon dot co dot uk >Subject: Ted White and the 'Classical' KC >IN ET 411 the venerable Ted White writes >>I've never heard any Bartok or Stravinsky in Crimson - which isn't >>to say they haven't influenced or inspired KC; I have no idea. >I think that maybe if Ted listened to Larks Tongues pt.II and then >followed it with the last section of Stravinsky's >Le Sacre where the young virgin dances herself to death, he might see >a provocative rhythmic similarity. Also Bartok's 4th String Quartet >could have been a rhythmic springboard to KC,... I've posted some Real Audio clips of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring and the Bartok 4th Quartet on "Elephant Tape" in a section called "Igor and Bela and Larks' Tongues in Aspic." You can find a link to Elephant Tape in the main body of the ET site. Recent additions also include tracks from Guitar Craft student Joan Bull and ETer Stephen Goodman. If any Guitar Craft students or ETers would like to send in music for Elephant Tape, just write for the submission address. Jeffrey Weinberger http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:33:04 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipandDeb at aol dot com Subject: Comments re:Floyd, KC, supervision i have to say though if any band (zep, elp, yes, floyd etc.) has a possibility to break ground in the late 90's it's got to be crimson that will do it. >>What with the return of Roger Waters and (hopefully) an album on the way, Floyd has a real opportunity to make an impact KIMBERLY CLARK are a high-profile Worldwide organisation and it seems very peculiar that the adoption of their logo has not been mentioned thus far. >> Maybe no one else noticed the initials.. KC!! In my own crass way, I'd like to state that I find the excessive "quality control" of ET -- and the discouragement of all posts without a cold, academic tone (not to mention those which deviate from ETgroupthink) -- very elitist and distasteful. I've never encountered another mailing list with such a strong sense of "supervision." My subscription is really hanging by a thread, at this point. I might've even unsubscribed today, but then whaddya know, another intriguing Fripp submission. That's the only reason why I'm still here. Meanwhile, I'll be curious to see if the irrelevant, groupthink thread about ELP will be tolerated longer than the irrelevant, NON-groupthink thread about punk. >> Bravo! LoveYaLaterBye! Skip ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 04:07:57 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: Moderation / Piotr's Response to RF I will first apologize for the length of this post. I am responding to two posts from 418. Eb wrote in ET 418: > In my own crass way, I'd like to state that I find the excessive "quality > control" of ET -- and the discouragement of all posts without a cold, > academic tone (not to mention those which deviate from ETgroupthink) -- > very elitist and distasteful. I've never encountered another mailing list > with such a strong sense of "supervision." With all due respect to the ET staff and their immense time and effort, I must reluctantly agree. In the eight short weeks I've been on this list we've managed to eliminate tangiential discussions of both music theory and recording technology- two concepts, of which discussions are both appropriate and unavoidable when discussing Crimson, and someone else offered that the Loop Music Discussion List might help make ET 'less musician-y'. This pretty much leaves a.) constant banal repetitive gushing about KC records and bootlegs, b.) highly subjective comparisons between KC and other bands, and c.) a place to share tour dates. In other words, anything of substance already has its own discussion group and is therefore not welcome here. Is it not enough that we all supposedly share a keen interest in KC and Fripp? Can this list not be useful for that reason alone? Must every word be in reference to KC and Fripp? (apparently not) Are subsequent tangents inspired by discussions of KC and RF not acceptable? This happens in 'real' conversation regularly. I can't imagine having a conversation with someone, knowing that as soon as I drifted slightly from the subject that I would lose their attention and the discussion would have to be abruptly concluded. This would be rude in verbal conversation, and I consider it rude here as well. I must say, as a musician, a recording engineer and an avid Fripp enthusiast, that I feel my contributions are genuinely unwelcome here. This would be fine were I not absolutely certain of the validity and relevance of my remarks and those of others who share an interest in things non-Crimson as they relate to Crimson. also... Piotr wrote in ET 418: > RF: "Firstly, my knife throwing is unlikely to improve." > PZ: "Knife throwing is the very strange example but... it's very > nice to see a musician having good time on the stage along with his > audience, not only going about his drudgery." Did you see the same Fripp I saw? At what point does devoting oneself wholly to music and performance qualify as drudgery? One might, instead, view knife throwing as a destructive distraction from music. Unless I am mistaken, music (or drudgery, as you imply) is the very point of a musical performance. Perhaps you might prefer a carnival. Everything is well lit and music is merely a backdrop for something 'more exciting'. > RF: "Secondly, I doubt that I would ever spit on a Warsaw audience." > PZ: "Spitting on the people is very unkind way of showing that the > artist notices their presence. But it's better than nothing. Dear > Mr. Fripp, once upon a time you were speaking to your audience. Why > don't you do it nowadays, instead of stealing in the darkest nooks > of the stage ?" Your failure to recognize Fripp's presence as an acknowledgement of the audience's presence is remarkable. > I didn't attempt to bootleg the concert ! I spent so much money on > the ticket that I wanted to have some keepsake and a proof of my > presence there. Of course, I'm aware that it was illegal. And I > used a very simple cassette recorder - that's why the quality of > my tape is poor. I think you have clearly missed the point on this one. Personally, I simply do not buy, make or listen to bootlegs for this reason: a.) listening to a bootleg of a performance I attended erodes my memory (which is more comprehensive than a tape) of the experience and flattens it into a (supposedly, but not really) repeatable event. b.) listening to a bootleg of a performance I did not attend robs those who did. Bootlegs, whether distributed or not, are, as RF suggests, destructive to the performers, the performance, the audience and music as a whole. I maintain that your great expenditure on the KC show would be better justified had you left with nothing but the experience of having heard Crimson. The price for a concert includes only a concert, and a tape comes with a much higher price which must be paid by others as well as you. Perhaps your taping and your subsequent attempts to relive the concert experience (not to mention your compulsion to subject KC to comparison, both in your own mind and on this list) are at the heart of your disappointment. With only your memory, you are properly equipped to relive your concert experience, but with your memory plus a tape, you are vastly under-equipped. Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham, Alabama ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:21:20 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Basile Tingles IMHO my Tingles: KC LIVE & 0r Pittsburgh Soundscapes...wow! Warmly, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:55:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re - The New Bill Bruford Album It's called "If Only Summer Had It's Ghosts". The other albums released there were called (as most may know) Native Of The Rain (Tony Geballe), "From The Caves Of The Iron Mountain" (Levin/Marotta/Gorn) and "The Night Watch/Concertgebouw" (King Crimson 1973 Line-up). On a personal note, I hope the next playback isn't in America, although it really shouldn't be, since King Crimson is mostly an English Band. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:33:56 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Bruford's Compositional Abilites Forgive me if someone has already addressed this issue, and I've missed it. In ET 412, Eb comments: >> (Yeah, yeah, I know Bruford gets some shared >> songwriting credits, but isn't that mostly just a nod to his improvisation >> abilities?) I've always been under the impression that Mr. Bruford is rather more versed in the art of tonal composition than the average drummer. He has done a fair bit of the melodic composition on his "Bruford" era recordings. I'm not quite sure what the blend is for the Earthworks projects, but to guess from the music, I would say that he adds more than rhymic content (although it's rather hard to imagine him keeping up with Django Bates. Hell, it's hard to imagine *anyone* keeping up with Django Bates). Throughout KC II (the 80's) he added a great deal of tonal content to the music, through the use of pitched Simmons patches, makes similar contributions within Earthworks, and played a fair amount of pitched percusion (vibes and the like) on the first Bruford record. I understand the general gist of Eb's comment, and I think there's a fair amount of that kind of thing (To whit: Fripp giving Bruford a liner credit for "Admirable restraint" on "Trio", a place where he made an invaluable contribution to the music by deciding not to play a single note), but I don't think that idea paints a complete picture. My guess is that there may be a number of compositions in Bruford's catalog in which he was the primary composer. In the end, it is probably his tonal abilities that make him such a wonderful drummer. To my ears he has always been one of the most "musical" drummers working in rock. Perhaps he stretches the limitations of the genre, which would explain his recencent embracing of Jazz forms, where musicallity in the drumming is a much more vital component. Regards, Ken Lacouture ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #419 ********************************