Elephant Talk #417 (as text)

10 September 1997

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 05:56:56 -0400
From: Discipline Global Mobile
Subject: News update
September 10th. 1997.

Dear Team,

        In response to recent postings:

        News update:


Bill Bruford
Robert Fripp
Trey Gunn
Tony Levin

        The practical difficulties of King Crimson working together are
immense: huge expense, expectation from audiences of King Crimson and its
repertoire, and major logistical problems.

        An alternative approach is for smaller units within the Double Trio
to work together, privately and publicly, rather than for all six of us to
clatter and bang away simultaneously - which can be wonderful, for some of
the time. And awful, for some of the time. And loud, for most of the time.

        Separating out the full group into smaller working ensembles
increases the musicians' knowledge of what is possible for the full group;
conjoining increases their understanding of what is possible for any Double
Trio. Or any Triple Duo. Or Sextet. At least, that's the idea which I am
currently presenting to the other members of King Crimson, to consider our
next period and how best to embrace it.

        Trey is himself not aware of any plans for Crimson as a Triple
Trio, although I found the idea sufficiently wacky to believe it possible,
wonder who Trey had in mind and whether his thinking and mine coincided.
Until I discovered Trey was not aware of a Triple Trio. And right now, Six
is quite enough for me.

        PROJEkCT ONE, at the Jazz Cafe, London, Monday - Thursday 1-4th.
December 1997, is the first King Crimson sub-group project of several
planned. The music is improvised and there are no prior rehearsals.

        The aim of these smaller Crimson projeKcts is to function as
Research & Development for the Greater Crim. These projeKcts may become as
much and as little as they may.

        Trey, Pat and Robert have already agreed to undertake a Single Trio
improv performance either in Seattle, Austin or Nashville, but have yet to
agree practicalities.


        On the afternoon of Saturday 6th. December (14.30 - 17.00) there is
a Soundscapes performance in Newlyn Church, Cornwall, with artwork by John
Miller and Peter Willis, to benefit a local special needs learning group
which has had its funding cut.


        In case the above should give the misleading impression to any
unwitting ET reader that I am seeking to refashion my mercenary image to
that of philanthropist, I make the following request:

        Think of me in the worst terms you may, knowing that the hardest
judgement at which you might arrive falls far short of the actuality. This
has the advantage to you that your expectations of me, as other than a
wretch, may never be disappointed. This has the advantage to me that I do
not have to feel the burden of your expectations. Then, you have the
arising advantage that you might look to your own nature, conduct and
aspirations rather than mine. In seeing your own nature, compassion for
what I bear in seeing and knowing myself might arise within you. It is to
our joint advantage that, in having a better sense of what is true, we
might share a sounder base for our opinions and judgements in respect of
each other. Even, to seeing that we are the same creature.



Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:51:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: DanKirkd at aol dot com
Subject: Possible Productions

The Possible Productions web site is temporarily offline.  ET Web is aware
of that, and the link to their site has been disabled until it is back up.
Meanwhile, for those of you wondering how to contact them, just send them
email at PossProd at aol dot com and make an order in inquiry that way.  As soon
as the new Possible Productions site is ready, ET Web will re-establish the

In addition many people have been asking about how to get hold of one
release or another.  PossProd is always a great place to check - ask them.
In the past Mark Perry took many suggestions and found ways to stock a
release.  I don't see why that still isn't possible with Jeff and Amy
running the show.

Please don't send Toby or myself inquiries about Possible Productions.  We
don't have the answers to most of your questions - they do.


ET Web

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:46:11 -0700
From: Jason Thornton <jthornton at ucsd dot edu>
Subject: Re: List spam
>Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:11:20 -0800
>From: Eb <gondola at deltanet dot com>
>Subject: List spam
>Irrelevant, self-serving Artist Shop posts extending up to 5K now, I see....

Whereas I'm a happy customer of the Artist Shop and *would* recommend its
services to my fellow E-Talkers, I must agree with Eb (is that pronounced E
Flat?) here.  Elephant Talk has become incredibly spam-ridden as of late.
From the very long Artist Shop announcements (which I enjoy reading, but
now receive in numerous forums - personally, here, on the Sylvian list...),
to musicians constantly announcing that their new personal soundscapes are
available on-line, to inane new-age hippies promoting their personal brand
of pseudo-philosophy and metaphysical fraud.

Personally, I don't mind the **occasional** well-intentioned off-topic,
even commercial post.  But, when it becomes a regular weekly item, it gets
to be quite annoying and cumbersome.  Banning all commercial and off-topic
seems somewhat extreme, and that is not what I am calling for - I've been
led to some interesting companies, releases from non-Crimson artists, and
other goodies, all thanks to tangential posting.  I do wish, though, that
people would learn some restraint, and all join in to help cut down the
traffic on E-Talk.

For the most part, we don't need to hear you babble about your personal
life.  Many of us aren't at all interested in your personal
religious/mystical beliefs (and, in fact, find them both dangerous and
simplistic), or how much you hate Ouija Boards, or how you worship
bandwidths of light.  We don't need a five paragraph explanation of every
CD your CD store gets in stock.  Everytime you add a soundfile of your
music to your website, don't tell us about it.

The occassional "BTW" remark is fine (a good example would be Misha's
"shameless plug" in Digest #416)...Even, once in awhile, telling us all
"what's up" is tolerable.  But, honestly, almost no one is interested in
your theories of Fripp the "LightWorker," or that you're selling
Kajagoogoo's "White Feathers" for $1.00 off this week.

If I were to put my vote in, I'd rather read more posts on the (at least)
Crimson-related "banned" topics than most of the off-topic clutter I've had
to wade through recently.  Hopefully, there will be no need to further
moderate this list - I'm hoping that everyone can practice some degree of
personal discipline.

Learn to lurk!

(No hippies were harmed during the composition of this post - afterwards,
I'm  making no promises.)

        Jason R. Thornton || Chapman Stick, Silver #2125
    "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples."

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:36:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: DAMON CAPEHART <monsieur at mymail dot net>
Subject: Re: List spam / Artist Shop
On Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:11:20, Eb <gondola at deltanet dot com> wrote:
> Irrelevant, self-serving Artist Shop posts extending up to 5K now, I see....

1) Irrelevancy: About 75% of the Artist Shop's posts are directly
Crim-related, and about 20 of the remaining 25% are more indirectly (ooh,
Peter Hammill - he's never actually BEEN in KC, so it's obviously
irrelevant to ET.)

2) self-service: We are all self-serving, whether we mean it or not.  'Nuff


P.S.: How about this tidbit from a friend of mine who reads ET over my
shoulder: "Mostly irrelevant, self-serving Robert Fripp posts extending up
to 12K now, I see..."

From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator)
Subject: ET Moderation: need for and lack of
Hi everyone. I'd like to comment on the sentiments expressed above.

As your Moderator/Facilitator/Amusement Engineer, I read every post that
comes in to ET. Yes, every one.  Some I reject, with a polite note to the
originator; perhaps their post is offensive, libellous, or incites hate.

Other posts I delete without further action because they are so offensive I
don't wish to enter into correspondence with the poster.

Other posts I edit -- unilaterally -- to remove things I think are
irrelevant to ET: off-topic things, personal insults, that kind of thing.

With ET #416, however, a batch of posts went out unedited, due to my
mistake. I mention this because I'd intended to add a parenthetical comment
after the post by "Eb". So here it is now.

Eb> Irrelevant, self-serving Artist Shop posts extending
Eb> up to 5K now, I see....

Artist Shop posts are sometimes irrelevant to ET (the latest one I have
received, for example, is free of any KC-related content, so it won't be
posted to ET) but they usually are relevant. So I include them in ET.

While I find Eb's comment crass, I included it in the interests of free

Jason Thornton, above, complains about the quality of posts to ET.  I
couldn't agree more. Unfortunately people do send posts to ET that are
uninteresting, poorly written, childish, embarrassing and sometimes just
plain bollocks. You can see examples in this issue.

Believe me, I do weed stuff out!

On the other hand, I believe there's enough "good stuff" to make ET a
worthwhile project. I hope you do too.

But that's the nature of an Internet newsletter, folks. Let me reassure you
that if ET were an automated list, with no moderation, you'd really have
something to complain about! :-) 

If you'd like to suggest ways of improving the moderation of ET, please
email me privately (toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk). Right now I don't want this to be a
big meta-discussion in ET itself.

I'm considering changing the name of ET to "Curate's Egg".


Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:14:27 +1200
From: David Maclennan <davidm at moc dot govt dot nz>
Organization: Ministry of Commerce
Subject: Tingles
Hope this ain't off-limits yet, but I can recall two particular instances
of tingles associated with KC music.

The first was in December 1970, the day I first heard "Court".  Back in
those golden days of radio in New Zealand, before they became obsessed with
ratings and when the audience, not the advertisers, were the prime concern,
a government-owned station called 2ZM used to have a drive-time (4 - 7:30
pm) show in which, as well as all the latest chart stuff, they featured new
album releases, generallly playing a good number of tracks from said albums
over the course of the evening.

At that time I was 16, and my musical tastes relatively unformed.  My
favourite bands were The Beatles and Creedence Clearwater Revival.  I also
liked what is now trendily called "lounge" music.  My favourite classical
music was Strauss waltzes.

So one day I'm listening to this show and they were featuring a batch of
new releases from a then-new label called Vertigo.  One of them was "Court"
(yes, it originally came out on Vertigo here, as did "Poseidon" and
"Lizard" a bit later on).  They played the title track, and I was
completely blown away.  Where DID this music come from?  This was like
tuning into another dimension.  It was so "out there"!

I think, over the course of the evening, they played the whole album.  I
know they played "Moonchild" because I was very taken with that track, and
I'm pretty sure they played "Epitaph" too.

Funny, but CCR never sounded the same again after that....

Fast-forward to 1973, and "Lark's Tongues" gets released in NZ.  I bought
it, rushed home, and put it on through the headphones ("cans" we called
them back then).  Lots of quiet tinkling, and what sounded like a guitar
being gently picked.  Then some quiet violin.  I turned up the volume.
Then it got a bit louder, and then a bit louder, then some drums came in,
and then....

WHAMMM!!!  In came the riff like a Panzer at full throttle.

24 years later my head is still suffering aftershocks!


David Maclennan

Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 23:26:08 -0500
From: Eric Thorson <ethorson at luthersem dot edu>
Subject: review of new Gauchos album
I recently purchased the new album from Los Gauchos Alemanes, entitled
Little Beast, and would like to share the experience with other ET'ers.

    The group is composed of Guitar Craft alumni, Steve Ball, Fernando
Kabusacki, and Hernan Nunez.
    The track listing is as follows-

Fireplace (Ball)
Miles, Miles (Ball, Kabusacki, Nunez)
Straycat (Ball, Kabusacki, Nunez)
Little Beast (Nunez)
Cosmonauta K (Ball, Kabusacki, Nunez)
Voices of Ancient Children (Kabusakcki, Nunez)
The Breathing Field (Ball)
Cinco Latinos (Nunez)
Valsicordio Andino (Kabusacki)
Hot Fat Fish Frying in Butter (Schwutke)
The Whip (Nunez)
Ugly Enough (Kabusacki, Nunez)
Cadillac '97  (Ball, Kabusacki)
RockSlide (Ball)
Burning Siesta (Nunez, Schwutke)
Little Beast (Nunez)  <this is kind of a reprise>
THRAK (Fripp)
VROOOM (King Crimson)
Ruthenian Song (Bela Bartok)
Gunshot Superfly (Ball, Kabusacki)

So, Twenty songs in all, some of the titles familiar to listeners of their
previous album, Hot Fat Fish.  "Voices" was included on the Sometime God
Hides disc.  "Burning Siesta" was, in a vastly different form, included on
the LCG "Show of Hands" disc.  If you are reading Elephant Talk, you are
probably familiar with "THRAK" and "VROOOM".

    Los Gauchos Alemanes is a guitar group that works primarily in South
America, specifically, Argentina.  Steve Ball, however, is from the U.S.
The first Gauchos album, Hot Fat Fish, was an Argentinan release available
from possible productions.  Steve Ball did not play on that album.  Most of
the tracks on Hot Fat Fish have been updated and recorded with better sound
for Little Beast.

    The Gauchos are different from The California Guitar Trio, Europa
String Choir, and Gitbox in that they use electric guitar sounds much more
often.  The Guitar Craft influence is definitely there, particularly on the
older pieces, but this group seems to very intentionally be attempting to
carve out its own voice.  The range of influences is very like the cultural
melange suggested by the groups's name.  Guitar Craft melodies, country,
surf music, modern classical, Andean folk, various kinds of pop and jazz
swirl together in an intelligent, witty, aggressive, yet friendly style.

    The opening track, Fireplace, (familiar to listeners of Intergalactic
Boogie Express) takes the original acoustic piece and electrifies it
without taking away it's friendly appeal- until the end when the guitars
are allowed to rage a little and put a few dents in the original melody.
The rhythm of the chorus has also been played with a bit, turning what on
the LCG album sounded like reggae into a stately march.

The title track, "Little Beast" is a wonderful lazy fusion between
country-western and Guitar Craft sensibilities.  Its weepy melody was one
of the first "hooks" on the album for me.

    There was a thread awhile ago in ET about what an unplugged Crimson
would sound like.  The acoustic version of VROOOM offered here might be a
good answer.  This clever, almost-tongue-in-cheek-but-still-reverent cover
is a great listen.  It was the only way I could get my wife to listen to
that song.  She hates King Crimson, but thought this version was exciting,
sort of like Peter Gunn.  She even danced in the living room to it.

    Gunshot Superfly, the last track, boasts Pat Mastelotto on drums.  It
is a strange fusion btween LCG style and Blaxploitation theme music.  I
have yet to totally understand it, and can see why it was separated from
the album proper, but it adds to, rather than detracts from, the fun.

    To conclude, I reccomend this album to ETers and fans of good music
everywhere.  It can be purchased by sending $15.00 to Los Gauchos World

1416 Evergreen Point Road
Medina, WA. 98039  USA

It is an enhanced CD which even includes a video for "Voices of Ancient

                            Happy Listening!
                            Eric Thorson

Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:01:48 +0100
From: Neil Talbott <neil at antescher dot demon dot co dot uk>
Subject: Tingles in the Dark _ The Dutch Effect
IN ET posting 414 mrknchew writes
>It was quite impressive inspite
>of being (like most paintings in this museum) "dark with age".  After
>several minutes of taking it in, I walked over to the 'name plate'.  The
>artist was Rembrandt, the painting title "The Night Watch".  Bells rang,
>lights went on, and 'tingles', all without a note being played.

Ahem, I'm sorry but I thought anyone who'd read the Richard Palmer-James
lyrics of 'The Night Watch' from SABB would have already grasped that it
referred specifically to Rembrandt's painting pf 1642, originally titled
'Group Portrait of the Company of Frans Banning Cocq of the Arquebusiers',
it only acquired the title of 'The Night Watch' at the end of the
eighteenth century. However I'm deeply glad that this painting should have
such a deep effect on the writer - and in Amsterdam of all places where KC
played in '73, and the source of the new release of the same title.

I experienced something similar when I viewed the work of another Dutch
artist in the Courtaulds Institute, London where I came face to face with
the work of Van Gogh. The effect of seeing an original Van Gogh was
electrifying, it was as if my hair was on fire for the physicality of the
paint of the canvas was extraordinary. I'm expressing this very poorly but
I felt as if I'd been lifted beyond the normal space/time continuum for a
few moments, a feeling no reproduction of a painting could ever put over.

Neil Talbott

Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 00:19:20 +0100
From: Neil Talbott <neil at antescher dot demon dot co dot uk>
Subject: semantics...or romantics?
In message , camuscar at globaldialog dot com writes
>QUOTED: I don't know how much of a natural musician he is since (please, no
>flames on this one) his playing feels laboured (could be a part of his
>style/training).  Nevertheless, he plays from the heart, so that's pretty
>much all that matters, doesn't it?
>Funny, I feel just the opposite. My take is that RF's playing is fluid as
>opposed to labored, and that he plays from his hands much more than his

Reminds me of a comment RF made at the 'Gates of Paradise' Playback in June
about playing for 12 hours at the Union Chapel London. To paraphrase -
There was a point after several hours where he'd reached the edge of his
technique, where his hands got to the point where his fluidity as a player
was a redundant question, and he had entered a terra incognita where he had
to discover a new language of expression for the guitar.

The reason I like Fripp's playing, for all its technical gloss of
perfection, is that it tears my heart out and alters my brain chemistry.
There is passion there, ruled by discipline admittedly, but never the
chilling cerebral quality that Mike associates with RF's playing.

Neil Talbott

From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis)
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 02:36:10 -0500
Subject: the progressive alternative
        i'm writing in response to kevin holm-hudson. first let me say how
good it is to know that someone else from the realm of collegiate
composition has an appetite for king crimson. i took a ton of composition
in college and always got the attitude from professors that somehow jazz
was intellectual but rock taboo and simplistic (although i was able to turn
on one prof. with Show of Hands by the League of Crafty Guitarists). your
question is interesting. i know that Sleepless from Three if a Perfect Pair
did get some radio play in L.A. because when i lived there a lot of people
i knew recognized it from K-rock radio when i would play crimson for them.
i think the basic problem arises from what i recently read in Brian Eno's
diary. in today's popular music, music is only a piece of what sells a hit
song along with style, clothing fashion, haircuts, cool videos, rebelious
attitude, etc. and unfortunately they are probably just too damn old. even
the mighty aura of led zeppelin didn't make page and plant's live album a
"massive" success. to young fans zeppelin is stuck forever in their 70's
prime and continue selling 20 year old albums while the real page and plant
of today are too old. i have to say though if any band (zep, elp, yes,
floyd etc.) has a possibility to break ground in the late 90's it's got to
be crimson that will do it. they are one of the few older bands that
possess the aggressive evil vibe that seems to sell a lot of bands to the
younger crowd today. keep up the good work enlightening your students. i
think the music of fripp, eno and their followers will be the new classical
music of the late 20th century.

From: "Piotr Zlotkowski" <mczers at sgh dot waw dot pl>
Organization: Warsaw School of Economics
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:03:11 EST
Subject: Me vs. ET or I, sinner or Convicted & Burnt
Well, it's time to excuse myself.

Firstly, I must ascertain that I am a die-hard King Crimson enthusiast. One
of my friends believes that I'm off my nut. But I just cannot be uncritical
- I'm not a snob pretending that I like everything King Crimson does. I'm
not going to be insincere just to suck up to my god (well, I know some of
you don't like such deification but I can't help it). OK, I probably
exaggerated in my posting, but unawares: I was still impressed by ELP show.
Anyway, my opinion was subjective so I don't think anybody should fret
about it. I know the people who loved the Warsaw concert. And...  hmm...
does the reaction on my letter mean that the fault-finding ones are not
allowed here ?

And I have compared the quality of the -performances- only. Which means
that ELP are in my view better than KC only -on stage-. It seems I've
forgotten to admit that I feel sure that ELP are not the -artist- at all,
nowadays. They are but -reproducers- of their old pieces, though they do it
spectacularly and in a masterly manner. And KC are, with no doubt, ones of
the most original -artists- of the contemporary music scene.

RF: "Firstly, my knife throwing is unlikely to improve."
PZ: "Knife throwing is the very strange example but... it's very
nice to see a musician having good time on the stage along with his
audience, not only going about his drudgery."

RF: "Secondly, I doubt that I would ever spit on a Warsaw audience."
PZ: "Spitting on the people is very unkind way of showing that the
artist notices their presence. But it's better than nothing. Dear
Mr. Fripp, once upon a time you were speaking to your audience. Why
don't you do it nowadays, instead of stealing in the darkest nooks
of the stage ?"

By the way, the saliva argument is truly embarassing. It was but a
metaphor ! (sigh) And it hasn't been understood, I suppose. Besides,
its author is T. Beksinski of Polish magazine "Only Rock" (I'll
mention it later). I used his words for they reflected my opinion,
as well.

RF: "Thirdly, KC is not a group that is playing only the old tunes
and is not experimenting."
PZ: "Exactly ! So why ELP, who play their well-known pieces
constantly, seemed to me to be better on stage ? I can't imagine what
would happen if KC played with ELP-like enthusiasm and dramaturgy..."

RF: "Fourthly, it seems eminently unfair that whereas an audient
can choose their performer, the performer is unable to choose their
PZ: "King Crimson arrives to Poland once in 27 years, so a Polish
audient can choose this group his performer once in 27 years. And
King Crimson in my opinion was able to choose Poland. But wasn't
choosing for the very long time. Is it fair ? And, last but not
least, the tickets for the KC show cost one fifth to one tenth
of the average monthly wage in Poland. So some of the Polish
Crimheads simply couldn't afford this choosing...

I didn't attempt to bootleg the concert ! I spent so much money on
the ticket that I wanted to have some keepsake and a proof of my
presence there. Of course, I'm aware that it was illegal. And I
used a very simple cassette recorder - that's why the quality of
my tape is poor.

And, Mr. Fripp, I'm very sorry you don't want me to be your
audient. Have I really deserved it ? But... the more you hurt me
the more I love you. And I mean it. Love is blind.

Dear Douglas (drobillard at hotmail dot com): yes, I believe the concert
should be something more than only playing music well-known from
the records.

Dear Jurek Labuda (jlabuda at idg dot com dot pl): read the opinion on KC gig
in the Only Rock magazine (August '96), please. Then you'll find it
is not so enthusiastic as you suppose. And I do confirm there are
lots of KC fans in Poland. But try to guess who first presented the
live recordings from "Epitaph" in Radio WAWA, the one and only
classic rock radio in Warsaw (and Poland). I did.


P.S.  Belzebub probably does not mean "the man with the aim". I have never
met with such interpretation in any source. Before-mentioned name comes
from Hebrew "Baal Zvuv" which means Master of the Flies (i.e. protecting
from the insects) and was a name of one of the Phoenician gods (according
to the Bible he was worshipped in Ekron).  Afterwards he was identified (by
Jews and Christians) with one of the devils, the prince of hell.


From:	C dot M dot Wilson at btinternet dot com
Date: 97-09-08 11:21:27 EDT
You may be interested to know that the KC logo that first appeared on
VROOOM and has been used extensively by the band since is remarkably
identical to that of KIMBERLY CLARK, the people who manufacture toilet
tissue and paper hand-towels.

KIMBERLY CLARK are a high-profile Worldwide organisation and it seems very
peculiar that the adoption of their logo has not been mentioned thus far. I
would assume that the KC, i.e. King Crimson, logo was "designed" by The
Bill Smith Studio who should have known better! I'm sure many of their
staff members have used an office washroom or public toilet before and
would have seen said logo when they came to wash their ink-stained hands or
wipe their corporate bottoms.  Perhaps not.

Perhaps KIMBERLY CLARK who own the trademark would "accept no reason to
give away such copyright interests which is out of tune with the time, was
always questionable and is now indefensible" as Mr.Fripp would have it.  Do
KIMBERLY CLARK "contrary to common practice own the copyright" for their
trademark? Do the original designers "assert their moral rights to the
fruit of their labours"?  Perhaps Mr. Fripp will enlighten us all (though
I'm quite sure he has no knowledge of this).  Sincerely, Chris Wilson, who
incidentally has no connection with Kimberly Clark whatsoever but has used
a public convenience on many an occasion (and NOT for the wrong reasons!).

From: David Kirkdorffer <DKirkdorffer at exapps dot com>
Subject: Frippertronics at Home -- Looping technology and Web Site 
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:17:05 -0400

For those readers of Elephant Talk interested in creating Frippertronics
and Soundscapes like music, there are excellent resources about the tools
and the players all just a short web-link away at LOOPERS DELIGHT:

The site -- like ET -- is also home for a net-mailing-list (digests every
few days contain 10-12 posts), archives of postings, links to Looping
Music.  And I quote:

"Looper's Delight is a cultural and informational resource for musicians
creating with audio loops of every sort. Loop based music essentially
involves the repetition of audio samples, or loops. From that basic
premise looping moves off in numerous directions, encompassing a wide
range of techniques for building, manipulating, and using loops. The
technique crosses many musical boundaries and appears in a wide range of
musical styles and genres."

				*Loop Artists
				*Loopers of the World
				*Loop Performances
				*Tools of the Trade
				*Tips and Tricks
				*Mailing List Info
				*Mailing List Archive

This page is maintained by Kim Flint.
kflint at annihilist dot com


You may want to ask your questions about looping tools and practices to
this very helpful and friendly community.   That leaves ET to be a
little less "musician-y" and a little more "music-y."


Additionally, if you are really really interested in reading about music
in the spacey-atmospheric vien, there is a very very active and
informative mailing list (1-3 digests a day with 20 or 30 posts).  For

  ambient-request at hyperreal dot com
  ambient-digest-request at hyperreal dot com
     Message Body: subscribe
     Covers ambient artists like Brian Eno, the Orb, Steve Hillage, etc.
  Mngr: <ambient-owner at hyperreal dot com>

Have a nice day!
David Kirkdorffer

remember: LOOPERS DELIGHT: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html.


From: Spprt Rep 2 <support2 at commhelp dot state dot ma dot us>
Subject: Beatles & Tingles
Date: Tue, 09 Sep 97 12:55:00 PDT
To those of you who reminded me of who put Shakespeare in their music:  I
told you I might be nuts :)

1.  Echidna's Arf - By Frank Zappa.
2.  Beethoven's 9th - 2nd movement
3.  The crunchy noise in Easy Money
4.  Close To The Edge - by Yes
5.  Thick as a Brick - by Jethro Tull
6.  Where's Harrison Ford - by Altered State (a verrry overlooked gem)

Scottt Gold

Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:33:45 -0600 (MDT)
From: mary piscitelli-umphres <mpisc at unm dot edu>
Subject: Lyrics
KC lyrics have always been a soundscape in and of themselves.  Sometimes a
writer (poet, lyricist, etc.) uses the shape of the sound rather than the
meaning of the word to make the music with words.  A very nice
churchy-kinda lady with whom I used to work was a bell ringer in her
church, and she wrote poetry that sounded remarkably like bell ringing.
So, the lyrics may be silly in content, such as your example of Elephant
Talk, or they may be something a bit different.  Listen to the lyrics of
Under Heavy Manners by Fripp and Byrne.  The play between sounds is
extremely interesting!!

(and yes, I do realize that some lyrics are storytelling, or trippy, or
whatever, but I try to find a perspective of the reason why those sounds
together make any song what it is.)

Regarding the Holst comments:  People have been copying Holst for a
generation or so.  A really good example, and one that I am suprised no
one has written about in ET yet isthe use of all of the themes of The
Planets in the Star Wars score.  Listen to Darth Vader's thems, or the
imperial stormtrooper music.  Mars is very evident in tone and chord
structure.  I noticed it when I was about 12, and my musicologist sis

mpisc at unm dot edu

Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 13:47:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: diagonal flying <tkozal at well dot com>
Subject: Lake Encounter on 48th st.
Well, some members, current and past, of the group KC may not be open to
fans in casual encounters, but one is...

I was on my lunch break here in midtown Manhattanh, wearing my suit. I was
walking out of Rudy's music on 48th, which has the best selection of
high-end basses on 48th st.  Just as I walk out the door, Greg Lake was
standing in front of me. I smiled, offered my hand, which he shook as I
told him I was a big fan. He smiled, and said thank you. I then told him to
check out some of the new basses at Rudy's. He smiled again and said

Made my day, especially since I spent my teen years doing a bad Greg Lake
imitation in a number of groups.

Regarding the discussion of his size, I'm 6'1" and 235 lbs. He was about a
inch shorter, and perhaps a little heavier.

Also, those of you who haven't bought 10 Seconds, do it, it is great, and
very crimsoninsh.

I also see that Michael Brook produced the new Julia Fordham. Not my fave,
but the more $ he earns the better.

And the Bozzio/Stevens/Levin release is incredible, especially if you are a
player. Several Drummers I know are already ready to give it up after
listening to Terry.

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 06:34:09 +1200
From: David Maclennan <davidm at moc dot govt dot nz>
Organization: Ministry of Commerce
Subject: New DGM products
I received my latest order from DGM-UK yesterday, only a couple of weeks or
so after ordering (not bad considering I'm on the other side of the
world!). As I haven't seen much mention in ET of these things I thought I'd
describe them for any potential buyers.

First, the "Epitaph" playback postcards.  I confess I was a bit
disappointed with these.  They are large-format poscards, and beautifully
printed, but the subject matter isn't terribly exciting: pictures of people
milling about, getting stuff signed, or sitting and listening.  I guess for
anyone who was there these would make a nice souvenir, but for the rest of
us I'm not so sure.  The set could have been greatly improved by the
inclusion of a nice shot of the five original KC members with the "Epitaph"
artwork of the "Court" cover art, the original of both being on display
there, as I recall from the accounts.

I got the three Soundscapes signed posters too.  These are very nice, and
feature the cover art from the 1995 Soundscapes trilogy.  I got the signed
version: Robert Fripp signed each print in gold ink.  They will look nice

Finally I got the three most recent Soundscapes discs, "That Which Passes",
"November Suite" and the "Pie Jesu" single.

"That Which Passes" gets my vote as the best of the three 1995 Soundscapes
discs.  There's some real variety of texture and timbre here, and by the
end of the disc you feel as thouhg you've been on quite a journey.  And all
in under 45 minutes!

"November Suite" may well be the best Soundscapes disc to date.  There is
some breathtakingly beautiful and spacey moments on this.  I really like

"Pie Jesu', as has been mentioned here before, has three tracks from the
eternally-forthcoming "Gates of Paradise" disc (which will be worth the
extended wait if these are any indication).  One of these tracks,
"Sometimes God Hides", has already appeared on the compilation of the same
name.  A fourth tracks is from "That Which Passes".

My only gripe: I am starting to tire of Robert Fripp's tirades against the
music industry in the sleeve notes to these discs, especially when the same
quites appear on more than one CD.  While I don't disagree with a word he
says, I think by now the point has been made, and maybe it's time to move
on to more positive things.

Counting down the days until I receive "The Night Watch".....

David Maclennan

From: "Mathews, Thomas J." <tjm4 at cdc dot gov>
Subject: gig type /  thinking of thinking
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:12:00 -0400
>Gigs and people who type before they think!
>From JRHARTLET at aol dot com
>After having checked the Jazz cafe and phoned them up, there most
>certainly is a band performing from the 1st of Dec to the 4th who are called
>'Project One' , or somthing like that. It features (from an imperfect memory)
>Fripp, Bruford,Levin, and I think Trey? Presumabaly not King Crimson as
>Adrian is not included. This could possably be an acoustic gig being a small
>venue, but I'm just guessing.

Go to Trey's www: www.treygunn.com to find out something very interesting
about this gig. (I'm seeking work as a drink server on a leer jet to London
for that week.) Also, check out the hilarious and perhaps sad WOW! on-line

>"but no body 'should' die unless of cousre they have killed someone else
> with intent to do so."

I'm quoting you here JR because you have warmed my dander and not because
of the typo.  'Of course'?, I hope you just forgot the crucial IMHO.  We
can have a death penalty thread after Adrian writes lyrics about it.

o-o continue o-o

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:00:41 -0400
From: John Ambrose <jambrose at faberinc dot com>
Subject: singable lyrics

I like the discussion of the difference between how lyrics look on a page,
and how they come across when sung.

I'm a huge Rush fan, and I think a really good example of this is the song
"Dog Years" off of TEST FOR ECHO. When I first read the lyrics, they seemed
a little silly. I was interested to see how Geddy Lee could sing the words
"dog years" without it sounding corny and stupid. Then, when I listened to
the song, he mananged to make the whole song sound great. I think it's a
testament to Geddy Lee's great talent on vocals.

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:21:22 -0400
From: James Bailey <jbailey at southam dot ca>
Organization: Southam Inc.
Subject: Another response to Dave D. (home Frippertonics)
Specifically regarding query #4 (whether anyone uses the two Revox

I still do things using two decks, although they are Tandbergs, not
Revoxes. Neither has speed control, as Fripp used on his machines, and so I
have to use the faster deck for take-up (to avoid having a pile of tape on
the floor after a few minutes). They are quite close in speed, however, so
there's never been a problem with tape streching that I've noticed. One
"problem" with not having speed control is its effect on the signal, as
well as noise build-up. While this can sometimes cause difficulties, it can
also yield interesting results, so there is a trade-off. (Shameless plug:
my LP "Dimensions"). For a REALLY lo-fi test (actually the first delays I
tried doing), since I only had one Tandberg at the time, I used a cheap
SEARS! portable deck for the return. Not wanting to merely copy the
instrumental stuff I'd heard using this technique, I tried using it for
reciting poetry, figuring that the short lines would be ideally suited to
repeating patterns. The results were quite intriguing because the return
signal, although slightly distorted, was still audible after several
generations, but developed a nice burbling kind of sound. This meant that,
although still audible, it did not interfere with new input, and could
still be referred to. I often feel one of the pieces should have a wider
audience than it has had so far (anyone up for a compilation tape of
loop/delay stuff?).

I'd better stop now before I drone on and on until I foam at the mouth
and fall over backwards.

Jim Bailey

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:38:34 -0500
From: Francois Couture <93039260 at callisto dot si dot usherb dot ca>
Organization: Universiti de Sherbrooke
Subject: A prog radio show web site
I live in Sherbrooke, Quebec (Canada) where I host two radio shows on
CFLX 95,5, a community station.

One is called Delire actuel and is dedicated to musical avant-gardes :
free-jazz, avant-rock, experimental, computer music, electroacoustics,
etc.(Thrakattak plays here)

The other is called Delire musical ans is devoted to prog and its
derivatives, rock and fusion-jazz.(All other KCs play here a lot)

Both shows now have their own web site

Delire actuel : http://www.cflx.qc.ca/actuel
Delire musical : http://www.cflx.qc.ca/delire

Sites contain reviews, playlists, and the Delire musical archives : every
song played since the first show in May 1995. Check out what KC and Fripp
songs has been broadcasted!

I would like to put ET's URL on my links pages. I would appreciate if you
could do the same. I will also put information on how to subscribe to ET.

And please feel free to run this message in ET.

Thanks again for the great work!

Francois Couture

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:15:34 -0400
From: Don Cooper <cooperdt at snyoneva dot cc dot oneonta dot edu>
Subject: League of Gentlemen
Hi Et'ers,
	In response to the recent posts about obtaining a LOG CD, here's my
understanding: The original album was repackaged in about 1985 (on vinyl)
and included God Save The King, which was also previously available
separately. This then came out on CD and is currently available through
Possible Productions or your local store if you're lucky. Davis Byrne is on
the Frippertronics (maybe even some Discotronics) portion of the album,
but, of course was not in LOG.  I've never seen the entire LOG album on CD.
If everything I just said is obvious, and the real question is whether the
original LOG LP is availble in CD form, then (duh!) I've never seen it
either, and would love to buy one too.
	BTW, does anyone else hear a KC influence in Marilyn Manson? (As he
ducks to avoid the flames coming his way.)  Thanks, Don

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:13:31 -0400
From: Worth Godwin <worth at compcenter dot com>
Subject: In the Wake of the Master (Crimson music on TV)
I'm resending the following because it never made it to the list, so please
excuse the possibly outdated thread:

>Interesting: I saw part of a TV documentary on the Bermuda Triangle
>sometime in the early '80s--I think it was on PBS, but I could be
>wrong--and damned if they didn't also use a snippet of KC's "The Devil's
>Triangle" on the soundtrack!  There was no credit shown for Crimson,
>though.  Now if the band had been honest and titled that track "Mars," It
>would have shown up in space exploration documentaries instead...

Hi, I've just joined and was expecting to lurk for a bit before posting,
but seeing this thread, I thought I'd respond.  About two or three years
ago I was watching a Doctor Who story called The Mind of Evil.  This story
featured the Master, one of the Doctor's enemies, who has a goatee, and
looks a bit like the devil -- at the beginning of one scene the Master is
sitting in the back of a limo listening to a radio which he switches off a
couple of seconds later -- what I suddenly realized was the Master was
listening to The Devil's Triangle!  Rather apropos, I think.  8)


The TARDIS Databanks: http://www.compcenter.com/~worth/drwho/
Personal homepage:    http://www.compcenter.com/~worth/

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:08:45 -0700
From: spike <spike at connectnet dot com>
Subject: My spaceship is here, but...
  Ok, so I have my $5 shipfare in copper, silver, or nickel coins. I have
my rubber soled shoes on so that I can proceed without disturbing others. I
have a snack so that I don't get hungry and grouchy while waiting. My ship
is finally here to take me to a wonderous place following in the wake of a
tremendous comet, but I'm told that I may not take my whole CD collection,
only 10. So here is what I am taking.  1:UK - because it is my favorite.
2:Red and sneak in Lizard (they probably won't notice) 3:Beat and also slip
in ToaPP (I hope they don't check) 4:Gong, Gazuese 5:Gradually Going
Tornado (Oh Bill, you have so many great ones) 6:Brubeck, Time Further Out
(well I don't know, maybe I will take another Bruford) 7:World Diary (so
that I can rattle the ships' deflectors) 8:N.F.AliKahn/Brook, Night Song
(who knows, maybe somebody there will be able to translate the words for
me) 9:Foxtrot 10:THRaKaTTaCK (for when I want to be alone(it tends to scare
people away)) Is that all I can take? Well forget it, I'm not going!  Take
it easy, Spike from San Diego, California, USA, Earth, Solar System, Milky
Way (-kv-)

From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:12:07 -0500
Subject: i give up
it seems no matter what i write someone at e.t. needs to tell me how wrong
i am with every opinion i have. someone else attacked crimson's lameness
live with seeing elp doin' the hits so i made a case for crimson
contributing more the the future of modern music in a compositional sense.
then someone yelled at me for that by telling me there are only 12 keys and
everything's been done. when i corrected this to 24 keys of major, relative
minor, modes etc. but agreed everything's been done i got attacked for my
apparent stupidity by one of e.t's own staff who seemed to think i meant
everything's been done within the tonal system. now i am yelled at for
having a sarcastic tone after reading letter after letter attacking me. its
unfortunate that kevin h.h. in the earlier digests, didn't read why i had
an air of sarcasm, especially when i had a really positive agreement to his
last writing.  i don't get it. i like to talk about music and king crimson.
i've read and studied about both for most of my life. i would think that if
people have such an interest in music they would get their basics of music
from clear and accurate sources about its primary building blocks. i am not
a final source of all that's right and true and i never wish to be but
certain things like how many keys there are don't seem like an opinion to
me. i don't know why my opinions should always provoke anger and responses
so different to others who pour out their thoughts and opinions. i like
things to be clear specific and accurate and i apologise to all that think
there is something wrong with that.

From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis)
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 15:38:03 -0500
Subject: glutton for punishment
one more response to kevin holm-hudson. i don't second guess fripp's use of
red era crimson style in the 90's band at all. like many others it probably
is my favorite period as well and i, like others, was happy to hear a
return to the aggressive "metal" edge of those older releases. i don't
think there's anything wrong with an artist who has tried many different
approaches using the one his fans liked the most. it's still his style he
is using. i still think everything has been done within music somewhere yet
i love music and new music both listening and composing. back to harry
partch and milton babbit the question is how much "new" music has gained an
audience of actual enthusiasts. i think the person who has been most
successful at creating something new is brian eno. (and yes, he in turn got
his ideas from the minimalists and avante guard composers). maybe mass
acceptance shouldn't be a criteria for the "quality" of new music. to me it
seems like the old tree falling in the forest making sound with no one to
hear it.  harry partch's tree fell but how many people really heard it and
after hearing wanted to hear it again? his ideas are great and waiting for
other's to build on them but i haven't seen the results as of yet. so maybe
i should learn to shut up and not expose my thinking to others, but like i
said i guess i'm a glutton for punishment.

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 18:47:56 -0400
From: Steve Smith <ssmith36 at sprynet dot com>
Subject: Phase 1?  Project 1?
> From: JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com
> Subject: Gigs and people who type before they think!
>           After having checked the Jazz cafe and phoned them up, there
> most
> certainly is a band performing from the 1st of Dec to the 4th who are
> called
> 'Project One' , or somthing like that.

I find it most telling that on Trey Gunn's website
(http://www.treygunn.com) the band is billed as (his spelling intact here):

Trey goes on to write:

"Robert Fripp, Trey Gunn, Tony Levin & Bill Bruford play 4 nights of
improvisation at the Jazz Cafe in London, England. December 1-4, 1997"

Sounds to me like a Thrakattack.  Perhaps the songwriting sessions at
Adrian's home (with Adrian, Robert and Trey involved, as memory serves)
supplied part of the new album's material, and these jam sessions will
serve to germinate further, more instrumental material.  Whatever the case,
I once again am in the position of envying the British ETers.  Any chance
of an American blow, DGM?

Steve Smith
ssmith36 at sprynet dot com

Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:51:08 -0700
From: Herb Boardman <rickett at OREGON dot UOREGON dot EDU>
Subject: OOOPS and a blatant solicitation
Organization: Ministry of Stacking Things on Top of One Another
Greetings, all.

I posted recently on a "bootleg" cd from VIP records with Jamie Muir on
four of the eight tracks.  He isn't.  But the second 4 are definitely
stolen from the Great Deceiver box set.  I say SUE!!!

And for my smashing misuse of this forum, my co-players and I are always
looking for new musicians to possibly form some sort of band with.  (hidden
internet joke there.)  In the Eugene, Oregon USA area, but out-of-towners
are welcome.  We have drums aplenty (me), bass/vocals, and guitar.  An Ian
MacDonald/Mel Collins wannabe would be a plus.  But even violin, keyboards,
STICK....?  We are called Ice Nine, and play....oh....progressive?  That'll

Mike Holst

        If one does what God does enough times, one will become as God
        --Hannibal Lector

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 08:40:59 -0700
From: Poisson <poisson at club-internet dot fr>
Subject: Dutch Paintings
> After several minutes of taking it in, I walked over to the 'name
> plate'.  The artist was Rembrandt, the painting title "The Night
> Watch".  Bells rang, lights went on, and 'tingles', all without a
> note being played.
> If any fellow Crim-Heads make it to Amsterdam, be sure to check it 
> It will be a true Crimson moment, at least it was for me.

The same thing occured to me two years ago when I saw the Night Watch
painting, and that very song kept playing in my head afterwards when I
visited the Vermeer exposition near The Hague. I associate some of the
feelings conveyed by the '73-'74 incarnation of Crimson to the dark beauty
of Dutch paintings. Has anybody else experienced this strange relationship
between painting and (crimson) music. Some that spring to mind are John
Miller paintings which adorn the recent soundscapes series, and fit
beautifully well with the music.

So that's two reasons for making this Crimson-trip to Amsterdam - I don't
want to hear about a third reason :)


Mike Stok