Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #416 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 416 Wednesday, 10 September 1997 Today's Topics: Message From Elephant Talk Administration Hackett Happy Family info Re: KC Lyrics Chapman*Whitney/ex-Crimsoners List spam Cd Wanted!, and Adrian Belew re: Fripp and money An Invitation to Listen and/or Reflect Tell me about M'Boom Marching to King Crimson Re:Pleasures in pieces Frippertronics @ home, etc. Re:Popularity is good MARS, the bringer of Crints Islands A question for Robert Fripp Re: Everuything New is Old Again The Brain Exposure: Fripp the composer Re: Frippertronics @ home, etc. ---> Looper's Delight Phase 1- my theory Gigs and people who type before they think! re Phase 1 - Tour dates Dec '97 ET DIGEST #414 Thank you ELP at wolftrap Thoughts on Frippertronics and Guitar Craft ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- ********************************************************************** TOP TIP: Send your posts *only* to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. Posts sent to any other address will never make it to ET! ********************************************************************** Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 14:22:25 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: Message From Elephant Talk Administration Organization: Elephant Talk Fellow Crimheads - two messages from your administrator! (1) New ET Admin Commands The ET automated admin server (et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) now has two new commands, allowing you to change from digest to bulletin format, or bulletin to digest format. The commands are D-2-B B-2-D where the first command (D-2-B) will change your subscription from digest to bulletin format, and the second command (B-2-D) will change your subscription from bulletin to digest format. Hopefully this will obviate the need to use the UNSUB and SUB commands in order to swap from one format to the other. (2) ET distribution Problems I am currently trying to get Demon Internet Services to investigate the source of problems with delivering ET to a number of you. The problem is *very* hard to fathom, although it appears to mostly (but not exclusively - hence the problem) affect Compuserve subscribers. Rest assured that I am determined to get to the bottom of the problem, even though Demon seem to want to assume the fault lies with 'everyone else' rather than with themselves. Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 09:46:09 -0400 From: Ralph Jessie/Lori Kerns Organization: Borders Subject: Hackett Sorry for the non-Crimson content. I am putting together a tribute site to Steve Hackett (formerly of Genesis & GTR). If anyone has any related material that I could add to the site, I'd love to hear from you. All inclusions would be properly credited. Thanks. Ralph Jessie mouser at javanet dot com ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: Happy Family info Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:41:30 -0700 James Bailey wrote: >Also in #405, Barry Hecht wrote: >I feel the void or emptiness that you are referring to with the band >"HAPPY FAMILY" at times. >For those who consider KC to have a jazz side ;-), and especially to >Bruford fans, I would recommend these folks. I only heard them once, on >the radio ("Brave New Waves" on CBC) and didn't get label info, so have >yet to find their stuff. Barry, could you post the details on them? >Thanks. James, I certainly will accouter you with the tidings you request :) The band, "HAPPY FAMILY" would most definitely appeal to KC fans. HAPPY FAMILY- Self Titled / 1995 / Cuneiform Records HAPPY FAMILY- Toscco / 1997 / Cuneiform Records Both can be purchased with the succor of the internet pretty easily. Check out some of the progressive CD sites. Sincerely, Barry *************************************************** NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE LOVING **************************************************** Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 13:40:34 -0400 From: future perfect Subject: Re: KC Lyrics >I guess one test of a lyric is how >singable it is. It may not look wonderful on a printed page, but >that's >because it is intended for oral interpretation. What do ET's readers >think? Over and out. What an interesting post....I know when I buy an album which I've never heard and I'm reading thru the lyrics before I hear them, they seem sort of awkward, and then miraculously they spring to life when sung. >I guess one test of a lyric is how >singable it is. I think this is absolutely true. My favorite lyricists: Pete Sinfield, Jon Anderson (in all his sonorous, cryptic glory), and Peter Gabriel, have all at one time or another used words purely for how they sound. Why not? Who cares if they mean anything? Do instrumental passages need to *mean* something? Does music need some kind of literary meaning? In a shameless plug, check out my website for tour dates in the NE next week...you may like *my* lyrics :), and we play a slew of lovely Sinfieldian KC songs....:) Cherrio! Misha -- ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 " Music will enter our sorry world despite all our efforts to keep it out. " -Robert Fripp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 11:53:51 -0700 From: Robert Cervero Subject: Chapman*Whitney/ex-Crimsoners I was going through my vinyl collection this morning (something I get around to about once a year) and came across the Chapman*Whitney album, Streetwalkers, released in 1974. I hadn't listened to this in a good decade or more, so I put it on. I then starting reading the liner notes, and it dawned on me why I bought this when it first came out -- there are 5 ex-Crimsoners on it: Wetton, Ian Wallace, Mike Giles, Boz, and Mel Collins. Chapman & Whitney were earlier in Family, along with Wetton (whose vocals always took second seat to Roger Chapman's interesting but somewhat craggly and strained singing in all these carnations). The album rocks, though not particularly in a Crimson vein. The closing set -- Just Four Men, Tokyo Rose, and Hangman -- is superb, highlighted by Mel Collin's alto sax blast between the transition of Tokyo Rose and Hangman. My question for this group would be has there ever been a release by a non-Crimson person or band with this many ex-Crimsoners on it -- five, to be exact? I know there have been more ex-Crimsoners on other albums by ex-Crimsoners themselves (e.g., Pete Sinfield's Still has 8 ex-Crimsoners on it, including himself). Keith Christmas's 1974 release, Brighter Days, has five ex-Crimsoners involved (Ian MacDonald, Mel Collins, Ian Wallace, Pete Sinfield, Greg Lake), though Sinfield and Lake didn't perform on the album, but rather produced all the cuts. Are there any releases from non-Crimsoners with more than 5 ex-Crimsoners performing on the album? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:11:20 -0800 From: Eb Subject: List spam Irrelevant, self-serving Artist Shop posts extending up to 5K now, I see.... Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Sep 1997 21:20:13 -0700 From: Julio Garcia Subject: Cd Wanted!, and Adrian Belew I just saw this: > Hello, > I'm looking for a copy of Fripp/League of Gentlemen on CD. The one with the > pink cover with a drawing of a cat or something on it. > I had the LP, but got rid of it when moving over to CD, sadly I have never > been able to replace it. Does it exist ? > Many thanks > Robert > Yeah of course it exist, well at least i've seen it on a lot of stores. The price is around 15 to 25 dollars. Adrian Belew, on his acoustic concert in Buenos Aries, let's just say he was good. I saw pieces of the early shows, wow!He does not need effects and elecricity. And i Heard he is going to colaborate with a gothic rock band, here on Mexico, when i buy it ill write the opinions and maybe post on my page some samples on my page, http:members.tripod.com/~julio23/bio2.html , Sorry it's on spanish and not much on Kc, but when i put something you will notice! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 22:57:55 -0400 (EDT) From: BoldDice at aol dot com Subject: re: Fripp and money As a long time listener and avid appreciator of KC and Fripp's various incarnations I am pleased, as a webber to find the ET. Much of it is insighful, funny and just the kind of thing I'd expected KC folks (my friends included) would and do sound like. One note too seems to pop up here as it has for myself at least and that is Fripp's rather adamant concern with money, copy right and the "business." Indeed, the liner notes to the new EPITAPH CD has long notes on the theory of business and music. Mark Fenkner in his post like-wise makes comment here. Now this can be perplexing and downright disillusioning to those who seek from their "idols" and "gods" proclamations upon the state of things like the soul, the end of history and who's on first. And I have to admit, I too went through this stage. But I wonder what it is we want from our "gods"? Do we want them to be gods? or would it best to let them be a tad bit human too? Perhaps eccentric? Perhaps having a bad day aka sounding off like an asshole? Hmm? Perhaps so. So let's look at this music busness business. There's many ways to look at it: 1) Fripp is not god but a capitalist musical mercinary (a spiritual conman sucking us dry for our dough in the name of Fripperies and Soundscapes). 2) Perhaps you'd buy into that stereotype of the eccentric Brit who lounges about in rubber underwear while tuning up the cat. Maybe Fripp is a bit mad or a loon. 3) Maybe Fripp is really mad in the angry sense about the ways artists get ripped off by our consumer culture moguls who look for bucks beneath the shawlsof their long buried mothers. Then perhaps in this light he's a realist who sees it like it is/calls the industry on the carpet (and other similar cliches). 4) Maybe Fripp, like many artists, have little to say about their works and indeed, perhaps the way they create art is so intuitive that they don't have much to say here. (Reminds me of John Ford's words in response to what he does for a living. "I make westerns". Short and sweet, like the old lady's dance, wouldn't you agree? Not to equate the type of artistry on display here, but Hollywood filmakers' often when prodded by us deep minded academics as to why they composed an image as they did, will simply reply: "Because I liked it..) 5) In tandem with 4, an artist's best response to our questions is their work. It does the talking. In fact, I believe I read somewhere that Fripp really doesn't care too much about titles or lyrics (maybe that's why his Soundscapes often have rather mundane names). That's other's affairs and he's primarily interested in the music. So if we're looking for deep discusions on life in the liguistic aspect of content analysis and titles, we're out of luck or we're pondering Sinfield's navel, not Fripp's. He's out to create musical experiences (and yes lyrics are a partner to this experience), not intellectual reparte. Indeed, I am of the opinion that these guys are best when improvising instrumentally and Belew (et al.) shuts up and stops trying to make KC a pop hit. This is a long gyre to make a rather simple point. Don't ask Fripp to be your guru (and I admit he'd be better then some), nor ask him to ponder life's imponderables (wouldn't you be disappointed if he did and he came off like rewarmed Moody Blues?) "What's the meaning of it all?" Gad! Go to your holy books or Monty Python. And if Fripp wants to let his music speak for itself, let him. Listen and enjoy and let his muse move you. Furthermore, since in this day in age it seems that we love to talk at excess about our "love objects" and even demand our "love objects" to talk at lengths about themselves back to us, that Fripp has nothing to say to us but quotes from press releases , interviews with cohorts and prattle about the business, shouldn't bother us. He doesn't need a web page (as one et-er pointed out that he seems alone in this). He's become the sum of all this chaos we call information. And what a clever way to keep himself out of the mix, an ironic one for a musician at that (an avenue Roland Barthes suggests for the artist who truly wishes to speak), namely, remain silent. Indeed, inactivity may be a way to nirvana. If all else fails, Go with the flow. Phil ------------------------------ From: "Stephen P. Goodman" Subject: An Invitation to Listen and/or Reflect Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:18:58 -0700 Greetings, fellow ET'ers. On the heels of the past week, we've had quite a lot of looking back over several peoples' lives and how they may have affected us. In this way, but with a more future tense, I've composed an ambient piece dedicated to Princess Diana, entitled "4D", and posted it at my EarthLight Studios site. It will be made available at no charge to sanctioned charity events and compilations, if I am contacted by those interested. I composed it after the Minute of Silence, and was more concerned with her legacy to us in public service to our fellow man, than the grief following her more-than-untimely passing. I hope you get the same from the song, but one never knows... Also, I have two other RealAudio songs online there, as well as The Loop Of The Week, an ambient loop for on- and off-line listening on your computer (or sound system, if so connected). Do drop in and let me know what you think. Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.earthlight.net/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:31:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Nameless to the Goddess Subject: Tell me about M'Boom Here is what I know about M'Boom, by Max Roach: The fantastic song, "B'Boom," was named after this. Tell me how the album is. If I can make a decision before ELECTRIC AVENUE goes out of business, I can get it for 20% off (which is always good). I wanna know anyway. DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111 at afn dot org <*> Why am I such a dork? The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 The Naked Friends Network (under construction): .../friends.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 15:44:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Nameless to the Goddess Subject: Marching to King Crimson How can marching to "Mars" in 5/4 be too hard? We did "Jupiter," and it was 3/4, and not rough, because the first beat alternates every measure. It's not like the first beat ever comes on the up-beat like something such as 13/8. But it's a great idea. Anyone here want to arrange King Crimson songs for marching band? I could see some of the orchestral sounding pre-Wetton stuff going perfectly, as I could see LTiA 1. DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111 at afn dot org <*> Why am I such a dork? The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 The Naked Friends Network (under construction): .../friends.html ------------------------------ From: Suso Navarrete Subject: Re:Pleasures in pieces Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:36:26 +0200 I own a copy of Pleasures in Pieces, RF's bootleg, many years ago - the = only copy I've ever seen. It's one of my favourite frippertronics album. It could be compared with = "Let the power fall", but I found it even more hypnotic. The sound is = good, though sometimes one can hear that someone in the public has = caught a cold ;-) I don't know how much expensive it is. I can say that I doubted about = the convenience of the purchase, because the same monetary problem. = After a few listenings, I never thought about it again!! Suso Navarrete suso at nexo dot es ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 18:57:58 +0200 From: patrick at his dot com (Patrick Smith) Subject: Frippertronics @ home, etc. On 9/4/97 Dave D. wrote: I would like to hear this disscussion of "Home Frippertronics" continue.....etc 6. What are some other small, funky delays and such that people like for "Frippertronic"-like sound?...... Dave check out Looper's Delight. It is a mailing list devoted to this subject. The email address is: Loopers-Delight at annihilist dot com There is also a Web site you can search for. I don;t have the URL handy. Most of the looping devices past and present are represented there. Patrick *** *** ** Fingerpaint http://www.his.com/~patrick/FNGP.html *** ** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 19:54:58 -0500 (CDT) From: cain joren reid Subject: Re:Popularity is good If Crimson were to enjoy the "popularity they deserved", things would be much different for the band. That's why Belew writes songs like "Oh Daddy" and Levin plays with Peter Gabriel, etc. They use those outlets to enjoy the more popular side of the music business. I'd even imagine that Crimson could be intentionally staying out of popularity's way. Zappa was mentioned in the posting about popularity; all he did was create "air sculpture"-music he wanted to write (not caring if anyone liked it). Zappa, like Crimson, definitely could have been popular. Not only is that not what they are concerned with (as everyone would agree), but once you're a part of that Top 40 circuit, something's going to suffer-either your paycheck or the music. I don't know if I expressed my thoughts really clearly, but I am glad Crimson is sort of a hidden treasure. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:29:40 +1200 (NZST) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: MARS, the bringer of Crints Colin wrote: >>I stopped by my old school today and what should I find in the music >>departments collection but "Gustov Holst - The Planets" on CD. So I stuck >>it in the CD player and spent an hour listening. It was REALLY good. Mars >>was thickly arraigned, dynamic, and evil! It was more up to the speed of >>The Devil's Triangle, not they awesomely slow and heavy Mars on Epitaph. >>I was also surprised to hear many of the same themes in both the London >>Symphony and King Crimson versions, flat fives and all! A really exciting >>piece of music, indeed. I also especially liked "Neptune, the mystic." It >>was very dark and mysterious. At one point a six-piece, female choir >>enters singing without words. They sounded, yes, like Belew's clouds at >>the beginning of THRAK! Really great music.<< Colin, this is one of my favourite pieces of classical music - I have even tried playing the piano music of Mars but, like King Crimson's music, the polyrhythmic nature of it got me thoroughly confused. It's in 5/4 time, but at one point the main melody line puts a 4/4 rhythm over the top by alternating dotted crotchets and quavers. The fact that this particular section slides through strange chromatic changes doesn't help matters. Neptune is also an impressive, eerie piece, with its aeolian choir, as is the slow, ominous Saturn. Re the crint - Given the love of wordplay amongst various members of crimso (Clueless and slightly slack, anyone?), it would not surprise me if, at some time, someone had written a good old-fashioned four letter word in bad handwriting, and Fripp, noticing that the "u" looked a lot like a "ri" had said "hmmm - crint - good word that. It'd make a good insult!" Thus, Fripp could well have been calling the obnoxious audience member by a euphemism for a much more common insult. James ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:35:54 -0400 (EDT) From: John Toothman Subject: Islands I apologize that this posting comes late, but I haven't checked my email account in four months and this is something that was being discussed around the end of April, or early May.... In regards to the Definitive Edition release of Islands, I believe some people have claimed that the remastered version does not contain the brief orchestral warm-up following the song "Islands"??? Mine does. I double checked to make sure I had a Definitive Edition's disc remastered by Robert Fripp and Tony Arnold in 1989. If it's not "supposed" to have the orchestral warm-up, then I bought an extremely rare disc that does! Just a late observation. Meanwhile, after catching up on about 30 Digests, someone asked about King Crimson's "future", more specifically...what will the new album be like? Well, to this ET'er, I waould like to relate a story... King Crimson's Philadelphia performance during the Thrakattack Tour occured in August of 1996. About a week before the show, Trey Gunn was on a South Jersey radio program ( I think it was a college progressive show). On the show he commented that King Crimson's new album would be ideally out in late 1997, but most realistically out in 1998. The line up would consist of three NEW members!! I double checked with other people who had listened to the show to make sure I had heard correctly, and I had! However, when Tony Levin was conducting his on-line Q/A session via Elephant Talk, his reply to my questioning was that this new edition to King Crimson was nothing he had heard of before. In conclusion, I don't really mind the confusion. I have always enjoyed to tactic of surprise in discovering and re-discovering the music of King Crimson. twd PS- Cross your fingers for a double-disc!!! 6 ------------------------------ From: "Robert L. Morris, Jr." Subject: A question for Robert Fripp Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:49:06 -0400 Dear Mr. Fripp; I have enjoyed your music for years and have no criticism for you. However I do have a question pertaining to the re-release of The Court of the Crimson King. I remember a magazine article where you stated that you received a royalty check for the sale of your records with a deduction of #5000.00 as payment to the studio for re-mastering your music to compact disc. You were not aware that they were going to do that and you had them send you a copy of the work so that you could hear the results. In that article you stated that you were horrified at the sound mix. That the studio used the final mix master used for the vinyl LP press. You found this unacceptable and you wanted to remaster all of your prior works so that they would be acceptable to your ear at the very least. Excited about this, I went to my local music store and purchased the new release. I had a copy of the old on compact disc ( the one you didn't approve of ) in my CD rack. When I got home I did a side by side comparison of the two. I was very hard pressed to hear any change or difference between the two discs. I couldn't hear any reduction in noise levels, no difference in tone color or quality, nor any difference in the overall volume, or change in the presence or "punch" of the recording. I guess my question is, is it possible that E.G. may have misled you? Could they have dumped those compact discs that remained at the press on the public with new labels without your knowing? Sending you a valid final copy for your approval? I am not making any positive statements here, this is all conjecture on my part. However, before you call me a cloth eared git or something of that sort, I must tell you that I do have a high quality stereo system. I own a Denon amplifier and KEF speakers. I also listened to the discs through a pair of AKG K 240 Monitor head phones. The only thing I didn't do was run a comparison with a Hewlett Packard spectrum analyzer which I had at my disposal at that time. My place of work would not let me have it to take home. Once again, I have no criticism for you, nor am I saying that the conjecture I made above is matter of fact. But what I am saying that I can't tell the difference between the two discs and I am trying to find a reason for this. Perhaps you could tell me what to look for. Always your fan. ( And wish I could see you live once before I die ); Robert Morris Waterford, Michigan USA rmorris at globalbiz dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:32:48 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Re: Everuything New is Old Again In ET #415 GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) wrote: >to further your point, harry partch has done harry partch, eno has done >eno, riley has done riley, glass has done glass... [snip blah blah blah] >so the question is how does your example of my >ignorance extinguish the debate of what's "been done"? [snip] >harry partch may have done something new but besides yourself >and music history writers, who cares? do you actually like partch in a >personal meaningful way or is he a scapegoat for you to hang your opinions >on? just because someone does something "different" doesn't mean its good. Let me first state that I am not a music history writer. Now that that's out of the way, without for a moment getting into the muddy trough over whether Partch's *music* was "good," let's clarify something here. Partch did Partch, yes...but nobody *before* Partch did Partch (even though Partch openly cited his interpretation of Ancient Greek music theory as a major influence, let's not for a moment suppose that Partch did what the Ancient Greeks did). In fact, Partch's work proceeded from the quixotic assumption that Western music post-1600 was based on the "error" of 12-tone equal temperament. In so doing, he attempted to posit an alternative to everything that was (and largely is) thought of as "music" by his own culture. Foolhardy or courageous? Depends on your opinion of his ideas (I recommend reading his _Genesis of a Music_, recently reprinted by DaCapo). I personally think the latter. The bulk of Partch's work dates from the 1940s and 1950s--so at least that recently, some "new" music was being made. Why assume it cannot happen forty-some years later? There are many, many just-intonation systems that have barely been tried--some "good" music may come out of that, maybe not. But why assume that only a small circle of cognoscenti would appreciate it? >and of course we can debate that whole concept til the dead horses come >home. a good example could be crimson themselves. from all i've read (frame >by frame and great deciever booklets etc.) it wouldn't suprise me that the >90's crimson went back to the red era crimson precicely because so many >fans and critics said it was their favorite style. Are you implying that Fripp's reason for using the Red-era style as a point of departure was monetary or for critical acclaim? There are boots of Crimso (the performance of "No. 1 Mr. Wonderful" in particular) that show the Red era of Crimson had roots at least as far back as the _Islands_ line-up. While we may not discern it from album to album, there is continuity there. This doesn't contradict the thrust of your point--I just question your second-guessing Fripp's motives--as "harmless" an indoor game as it might appear to be. >thank you once again >for showing me the errors of my ways, i feel enriched beyond words. If this was meant to be sarcasm, it is yet another example of the petty sniping and foot-spitting that seems to spring up on this list. I suppose it would be too idealistic to assume that all of us respond to posts as though we were talking in person among good friends. Oh well, it's only talk. Kevin Holm-Hudson e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu It is a curse [having hip parents]. It means you have to veer off and find something that's really horrible and despicable that your parents are not gonna like. It may end up that you're determined to like the Spice Girls precisely because your parents don't like them. -- David Byrne It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. -- The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 11:45:34 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: The Brain > From: Keith Burns > Subject: The Brain > Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:30:39 +0100 > > I recently saw a tangential reference in someone's post to "The Brain" > or > possibly just "Brain". The Brain single is included in the bootleg CD compilation "A Weird Person's Guide to King Crimson" (Volume 1). About it the liner notes state: "'Kick the Donkey' b/w 'Nightmares in Red' was the first result of the Giles, Giles & Fripp combination under the name 'The Brain.' While the A-side is a straight, perfectly arranged soul stomper, which the Giles Brothers used to do with the 'Trendsetters Limited,' the psychedelic B-side leads directly into the 'Crimson-Philosophy.' By the way this is the first ever record Robert Fripp is playing on." The disc lists the single as having been a Parlophone release from 1967. The remainder of the compilation contains KC boot and pirate material ranging from the 1968 A-side version of the G,G&F single "Thursday Morning" with Ian McDonald overdubbed on clarinet, live material from 1971 through 1974, and 1984 studio outtakes from "Three of a Perfect Pair." Definitely a weird one. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 97 13:58:19 -0500 From: "Marc I Roemer" Subject: Exposure: Fripp the composer I've been giving _Exposure_ several fresh listens lately and I'm still struck by it in many many ways. Wondering what makes it so remarkable, I theorize that it's due to Fripp's compositional control. Fripp was, for the most part, the sole composer. While Joanna Walton wrote most of the lyrics, and the singers probably conceived the melodies, I believe the compositions otherwise were all Fripp. He must have at least chosen the lyrics, maybe even "commissioned" them for his use. The compositions are performed by a rock band. Compared to the Crafties' orderliness performing Fripp pieces, and the improvisational nature of Fripps' other compositional outlets (Frippertronics and Soundscapes), the band really Rocks, adding an edge and other shades of personality. "Larks Pt. 2" and "Red" from the earlier period have similar, singular, focused effects. _Discipline_, (arguably I'm sure) the best of '80's trilogy, was so perhaps for the same reason: its basis in Fripp compositional ideas. None of the vocalists on _Exposure_ perform their own lyrics except Gabriel (and the Indiscrete!). I wonder if singers generally perform others' lyrics more expressively and with greater innocence than they do their own. At least in this case, the Separate Lyricist/Vocalist arrangement results in a more complex interpretive flavor because the performance marries two people's muses. (Or more than two: "Mary" has a separate lyricist, melodist, and vocalist). Come to think of it, this separation of duties this is what they do in musical theatre. Hmm..._Exposure_ in the Theatre of psychological distress, perhaps? While he may have had similar control over Crimson's music in '70 to '72, Fripp may not have found his voice as a composer yet at that time. He may not have held as much sway over lyrics either. Because he has split composer's rights with other Crimson members since assembling the '80s lineup, the resulting collaborative nature of Crimson seems to preclude the pure Fripp vision. Ditto Sunday All Over the World and other collaborations. Maybe this is all B.S. and the recording sessions were simply magic. Regardless, I think Fripp giving himself an outlet for his own vision, through his own compositions, in a rock setting is a good thing. the way it is that is the way it is, Marc ------------------------------ From: "Matt McCabe" Subject: Re: Frippertronics @ home, etc. ---> Looper's Delight Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 12:12:25 -0700 Greetings! In response to the Frippertronics @ home and related threads, I should mention that there is an excellent email list and web page for musicians experimenting with "loop based music." Point your browser to: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/loop.html The email list covers topics ranging from looping equipment, looping artists (Fripp, Torn, and others), looping philosophies, and much, much more. Drop in and say hello. Matt ----------------------------- Matthew Finley McCabe Sales/Marketing Support SunGard Bi-Tech Systems Inc. 890 Fortress Street Chico, CA 95973 916.899.4348 http://www.bi-tech.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:41:17 -0400 From: alan s cohen Subject: Phase 1- my theory So here's what I'm thinking. Phase 1 is the first phase of the next Crimson recording. We all know that Fripp likes to play live and then record. Perhaps Adrian and Pat can't make it then, so it isn't actually King Crimson. On the other hand, how do you rehearse a double trio as a single quartet? And I'm notoriously bad at trying to predict our Mr. Fripp. But Phase 1 doesn't really sound like the name of a band, does it? Personally, I'd like it to be a different project. It would mean more music from the lads. Alan *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000371 sends (alan cohen)... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:26:21 -0400 (EDT) From: JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com Subject: Gigs and people who type before they think! >From JRHARTLET at aol dot com 8th Sept 1997 Hello. After having checked the Jazz cafe and phoned them up, there most certainly is a band performing from the 1st of Dec to the 4th who are called 'Project One' , or somthing like that. It features (from an imperfect memory) Fripp, Bruford,Levin, and I think Trey? Presumabaly not King Crimson as Adrian is not included. This could possably be an acoustic gig being a small venue, but I'm just guessing. Last matter that I feel very angry about. Anonymous01 Anon1 wrote at the bottom of his posting, 'It should have been Charles'. Please forgive me if I am wrong, but I take it that Mr Anon1 is refering to the Late Princes Diana's former Husband. I am no big fan of the Royal family, and I also know this is not musicaly related, but no body 'should' die unless of cousre they have killed someone else with intent to do so. Mr Anon1. Imagine that your partner is killed and you are left to bring up two teenage sons under the close eye of the media and the rest of the world. Do you think that it 'should have been you'? Please understand that I'm not being directly rude to Mr Anon1. I'm just asking him to maybe think a little bit harder about what he types about issues that some people feel far stronger than I do, and in turn, leave them quite upset. This has not been a happy weekend for the people of England, nor its Royal family. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I don't believe Christopher to be a nasty person. I'm sure that you may well have good reson for your comment. But it seems a little too soon for such harsh comments. With best wishes, Simon of the South.(Looking forward to the 'Nightwatch' playback!) ------------------------------ From: "Martin Temperton" Subject: re Phase 1 - Tour dates Dec '97 ET DIGEST #414 Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:20:56 +0100 Rang the Jazz Cafe in Camden and spoke to the receptionist about 'Phase 1' (Dec 1- Dec 4). Booked for those nights are 'Project 1' , but no further details available ie "like who are they?" Its a great club though , saw Earthworks there a couple of years back Martin Temperton Thud ------------------------------ From: billforth at earthlink dot net Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:58:19 -0800 Subject: Thank you Dear Elephant Talk, I warmly appreciate the kind and generous support of ET readers who attended our benefit concert for Mark Craney at the Guitar Center, Hollywood, on September 7. I will remember the event as a day of extraordinary goodwill and essential music. Thank you, on behalf of myself and everyone involved. On a personal note of wonder: shortly before the concert, I noticed a boy peering through a metal gate in front of the backstage area next to the Sunset Grill. I inquired if he were coming to the show. His mother and he answered, "yes." On an impulse, I pointed at the boy and said, "YOU are going to win a drumset!" The boy's eyes widened and I immediately felt a pang of remorse, with the swift realization that I had just given a child an impossible hope... I was redeemed when twelve-year-old Jason Bizar did in fact win the drawing for that new Mapex drum kit (valued at $5000.00) and take it home. The performances, too, were equally wondrous. (For anyone who could not attend, but wishes to make a contribution, CD's and t-shirts from the event are available from the Artist Shop; all money from sales goes directly to the benefit effort.) Thanks, ET readers, and thank you, Robert, for telephoning your good wishes from England on the morning of the show. Bill Forth PS - Congratulations, Jason. ------------------------------ Date: 08 Sep 97 17:58:55 +0000 From: John Ott Subject: ELP at wolftrap Saw ELP at Wolftrap Park (Vienna VA. US) September 6. Good show. I was not expecting much as I had seen them on the "Black Moon" tour and Greg's vocals were very week. Well whatever was troubling his voice then is gone/healed. He sounded very good. Much stronger. His voice cracked once on "Take a Pebble" but otherwise was flawless. Both "From the Beginning" and "Lucky Man" were fabulous. They did not do "Epitaph" (they used to tack it on at the end of "Battlefield" from tarkus, but they only played half of tarkus this time) They did do "21st Century Schizoid Man" to start the second encore. A good show. Greg played Bass and Acoustic Guitar, no electric guitar. (I was hoping to hear Karn Evil 9 ( part lll) but only part 1 was played.) Mostly older stuff. (newest song was "Touch and Go" from 1986's "Emerson, Lake and Powell" record) In his defense of the "ELP rules Crimson sucks" post; Robert Fripp says (paraphrase) "Crimson does not play old songs." This seems to be a dig or criticism of ELP. I did hear 21st CSM at Merriweather last summer on the Thrak Attack tour. As well as new material. I'm not complaining. I believe the current set list for ELP is determined by: 1. No new Material 2. Currently the King Biscuit Concert CD of ELP 77,74 shows is in the stores as of Aug 26. It makes sense to promote these songs. ELP played "old" and "new" material when I saw them on the "Black Moon" tour. Crimson played "old" and "new" material on the Thrak and Thrak Attack tours. I enjoyed all these shows. I saw a few Crimson T-shirts at the show, I was wearing my Thrak t-shirt as my old ELP t-shirts are faded or too small. later John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 19:05:59 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: Thoughts on Frippertronics and Guitar Craft Dave D (treestump at earthlink dot net) wrote: > I would like to hear this disscussion of "Home Frippertronics" continue. > Both the info. on what various et-ers employ and any insight into exactly > what Fripp does is of interest to me. I'm working from memory here, so pardon if I'm not completely accurate. I believe the 'classic' Frippertronics setup is the Les Paul into the 'Fripp Pedalboard' (which must have involved some serious distortion device) and from there through an EMS Portabello VCS-3 for its resonance filter, and then into input One on the first of the two Studer A77 open reel machines. Input Two on the first open reel receives its signal from the output One of the second open reel machine. The second machine receives its input ftom the output of the first machine, while its output One goes back to the first machine, its output Two is the master output for the whole thing. The two machines share a single reel of tape with the first machine in record and the second in play. The delay time can be adjusted using tape speed or distance between the two machines, and the resulting tape can then be flipped, played backwards and used as a bed for a new performance. Other variations are possible by using Sync play/record and putting only one channel in record while the other plays back previously prepared sounds. > Questions: > 2.Does anyone have the famed 16 sec. delay? How do you like? What was > the cost? Best of luck finding this unit, but if you do, it probably won't be too pricey. > 4.Does anyone use Revox machines, like Fripp? what are the pros and > cons? I have done this once or twice using a pair of studio-style Studer Revox decks- much much bigger than the ones Fripp used. The cons should be obvious- two very heavy tape machines which must constantly be aligned well enough to stay at exactly the same speed for extended periods. The pros are that when you're done, you have a tape of your performance, and that tape can immediately be used again > 5. Fripp, Belew, and Gabrels often go without conventional amplifiers, > opting instead for digital speaker simulators and using the PA. Has > anyone out there made this leap? Why? I have indeed done this. While I spend most of my time in the studio and very little live, I find that using amp simulators is only mildly inconvenient in a performance environment. A power amplifier and pair of monitor wedges is almost essential. I use two Tech 21 SansAmp PSA-1's (one for left, one for right) and like them a lot. They are a bit limited in the range of sounds they can produce, but working within these limitations is good for me. The best reason I can offer for doing this is needing to switch back and forth among a variety of guitar sounds- i.e. more than just 'distorted' and 'clean'. This simply isn't practical with conventional amps. As I said, it is important to have some sort of real amplification. I think Fripp uses Bag End time aligned 15" cabinets. I don't know whether his are equipped with the ELF (Extra Low Frequency, which responds down to 8Hz) option which Bag End offers. I have had numerous opportunities to work with these speakers and others by Bag End, and they are indeed exceptional. > 6. What are some other small, funky delays and such that people like for > "Frippertronic"-like sound? While it is neither small nor particularly funky, I use an Eventide H3500, whose Mod Factory algorithm allows for up to 13 seconds (maybe more?) of discrete stereo delay. On the rare occasion that I might venture into Frippesque loop guitar territory, I use an E-bow and a Small Stone pedal (I have tried the filter section of a Moog Rogue and an ARP 2600 and I prefer the Small Stone) through anywhere from 7 to 12 seconds of unmodulated delay with the feedback at about 85% in the left channel and -85% in the right. If the left and right delay times are the same (which they are often not) I precede the Eventide with a panner. I have come up with some positively astounding pieces doing this, but because of the highly derivative nature of the process involved, I am very reluctant about, if not decidedly against, releasing them. Its almost as if I wish I hadn't gone to that place at all. Instead, I'm stuck with a couple of hours of truly interesting music that I feel I cannot, in good conscience, release. This combined with the fact that, without formal education, I use the Crafty tuning. I am becoming increasingly concerned that using the Crafty tuning exclusively for several years now may have impaired my ability to properly learn Guitar Craft formally if and when I should decide to do so. I do wish I knew RF's thoughts on this matter. Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham AL ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #416 ********************************