Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #415 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 415 Saturday, 6 September 1997 Today's Topics: Craney Benefit Concert Steve played bass too... The last words on polyrhythm? popularity is good LTiA: the meaning lyrics again KC "alternative"? The Brain Response to ET #409 Improved Sound Limited "A Soldier's Song Book" Frippertronics @ home, etc. Silent Night Watch 'tingles' 3 of a Perfect Pair laser disc. Re: Mars & fogeyism Re: Elephant Talk Digest #413 Thanks,Lizards,Stu Hamm Re: Free Jazz & Freeform Freakouts lyrics etc huh? fripp , money and image ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: billforth at earthlink dot net Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:10:46 -0800 Subject: Craney Benefit Concert BENEFIT CONCERT EVENT Mark Craney & Friends A Day of Drums and Music GUITAR CENTER, 7425 Sunset Blvd., HOLLYWOOD Sunday, September 7,1997; 1:00 - 7:00 p.m. Veteran drummer Mark Craney is ill and in need of an immediate kidney and pancreas transplant. To help him, some of his friends are banding together in support. Don't miss an incredible day of music, and help a great drummer keep the beat. * $15.00 admission... plus a chance to win FREE drawing prizes. * Win! A complete DW drumset, a complete Mapex drumset, plus snare drums, cymbals, hardware and tons of percusssion gear... Many of the world's most renown and respected drummers on one stage: TERRY BOZZIO STEVE SMITH PETER ERSKINE TRIO GREGG BISSONETTE DOANE PERRY AYNSLEY DUNBAR LUIS CONTE CARMINE APPICE MYRON GROMBACHER CHAD SMITH WALFREDO REYES, JR. Plus performances by: MICHAEL KENNEALLY & BEER FOR DOLPHINS. ERIC BURDON BAND THE MUSTARD SEEDS ALLSTAR jam band, w/ Mike Miller, Alex Ligertwood, Richard Baker, Jimmy Haslip and Mark Craney. ALAN PENA DAVID GARFIELD CHRIS SPEDDING Hosted by Joe Benson, Peter Aykroyd, Jon Lindstrom, Chad Smith and surprise guests TICKETS AT GUITAR CENTER AND PARTICIPATING MUSIC OUTLETS. Presented by The Woodland Hills Drum Club "Mass is not a criterion of quality." ---Andrei Tarkovsky "There are no solids. There are no things. There are only interfering and non interfering patterns operative in pure principle, and principles are eternal." ---RBF. http://www.rth1.com/markcraney.html - NEW CD information. http://home.earthlink.net/~billforth - Ten Seconds reviews. ------------------------------ From: "Van Wey, Alex J" Subject: Steve played bass too... Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:08:57 -0700 ...Stu Hamm played bass At one of the G3 shows, when Fripp was creating his soundscapes, and Mike was improvising, Stu handed the bass to Steve Vai - at that point it was Fripp, Keneally, and Vai. (per Greasy Kid's Stuff ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:43:27 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: The last words on polyrhythm? Alan Maguire wrote in ET #413, regarding "Frame by Frame": > they gradually go further and further out of sinc with each > other (1 beat every 2 bars?) until Fripp has played his group of 13 notes > 14 times and Belew has played his group of 14 notes 13 times (ie. both > parts add up to the same number of beats) at which point they are back in > sinc. Brilliant, isn't it? > > Has anyone used this rhythmic idea before Fripp? I suppose Gamelan > music uses interlocking parts but had anyone else tried it on a guitar > before (or since) ? I'm sure that this will open a deluge of irrelevant postings, so if it does, Toby, feel free to leave this one out, but... The idea of such incremental going-out-of-and-back-into-phase can be traced to the early music of Steve Reich, in particular his "Clapping Music" (which is quite literally for two people clapping). More challenging are his pieces where a performer is supposed to **gradually** move out of phase with another performer or a prerecorded tape loop--examples include his "Violin Phase" and "Piano Phase" (and his famous tape piece "Come Out"). Most of these can be found on a Nonesuch CD which I believe is called "Early Music." I remember reading sometime around the release of Fripp and Summers' _I Advance Masked_ that Fripp mentioned Steve Reich as an influence on his music at that point. Even more intricate phasing can be heard in several sections of "Discipline". Kevin Holm-Hudson Department of Academic Studies and Composition Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. -- The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 08:38:10 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: popularity is good >And then a nice smile ran accross my >face. Mr Fripp, dont ever become popular. Please dont ever have a hit. Your >still a hidden treasure in some parts of the world. I, for one, would love to see Fripp and KC achieve the popularity they truly deserve. To me, their new sound could even be considered commercial. If "One Time," and "Walking on Air," were to be used on a hit soundtrack, for example, the same people who put on "Avalon" for make-out sessions may very well become Crimson customers. I thought their presence on the HORDE tour was great. I want these guys to survive, and to continue making music...much more so than somehow to feel like I'm a member of some secret "club" where only WE can dig the heaviosity of Crimson, man. Much as I'd like to see KC with huge success (even a VH-1 "storytellers" segment) I can't help but think that since they're following in the footsteps of Frank Zappa, by owning their music and not bending over for record companies, they'll never get heavy airplay on the radio or MTV. The fact is, in the US anyway, radio is a promotional tool. The bands that get the big push are the ones you hear, and without being on a major label KC isn't likely to be pushed. ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Never knew she dug the heavy stuff, steely dan, Playing rough, back-door man - "Soul Ram", W. Becker/D. Fagen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 17:35:58 +0200 From: "Eric Brunel" Organization: Nortel Europe Limited Subject: LTiA: the meaning At first hi to you all, and especially to all the Frenchies (I hope I'm not the only one!). It's my first post to ET and I hope not the last...! I saw somewhere in a previous issue of the ET newsletter somebody wondering what was the meaning of "Lark's Tongues in Aspic". I think I have the answer: I saw in an interview somewhere (from Fripp I think, but I'm not sure) that it was actually a witchcraft recipe...I can't remember the details of it all, but that seems coherent considering who the "Crimson King" actually is... -- - Eric Brunel - |\/\/\/\/| | | I didn't do it | | Nobody saw me do it | (o)(o) | You can't prove anything ( () ) --o000------------000o------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:01:07 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: lyrics again >Now to KC's lyrics. I recall Peter Sinfield being taken to task for the >"artiness" of some of his lyrics. At the time the albums originally >came out, Stereo Review objected to lyrics from "Lizard" and "Islands" >(they hated "grass in your hair/stretched like a lion in the sun" and >"Time's grey hand won't catch me/while the stars shine down"). Well, >Sinfield's lyrics may not always read as well as the critics would like, >but they "sing" pretty well. They do linger on in the mind. They don't >sound like anyone else's lyrics. And they're definitely several notches >above the "come on baby/don't say maybe" school of puerile rock lyrics. >Richard Palmer-James's lyrics are pretty good too, both on the ear and >on the page. > >Adrian admits that he write pop songs. You raise some good points about Sinfield's lyrics at least being unique. However, I could say the same about Jon Anderson with his gems like "Climbing over overhanging trees/let them rape the forest" What bothers me is that poetry and lyrics are NOT necessarily the same. Why can't pop music be accepted on its own terms? Literature and music are judged on different criteria and I don't mean judged in the sense of scholarly analysis either. For example, blues has some of the simplest lyrics around. Now judging from a literary standpoint, one could argue that most blues lyrics are amateurish...while Pete Sinfield's lyrics are crafted and contain flowery words. But I'd much rather hear a blues singer singing with honesty, conviction, and this thing called SOUL, than some prog-dude waxing rhapsodic on the many different ways of saying tea-cosy. On the other hand, someone like Leonard Cohen straddles both worlds. He works with simple song structures (lots of country and folk) and uses these structures to construct his poetry on. Yet he himself distinguishes between his poems and his songs. (If you like lyrics like Pete Sinfield, I recommend Leonard Cohen very very strongly. He deals with similar themes (such as alienation and strife), yet with a truly unique vision and an economy of words.) My point is that while prog rock lyrics are more from the literary tradition, that doesn't necessarily make them good songs. I don't care if its in iambic pentameter....does it MOVE me? What makes Adrian Belew's (also David Byrne's) "pop" songs great is that they obviously mean something to him, come from a personal space, and are performed with feeling which anyone can relate to. ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Never knew she dug the heavy stuff, steely dan, Playing rough, back-door man - "Soul Ram", W. Becker/D. Fagen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:31:56 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: KC "alternative"? The post in ET #413 about supposed "alternative" radio in Chicago and the lack of KC/Fripp airplay got me thinking... I think that parts of THRAK, for instance, are as alternative as they come. I have a hunch that one reason KC doesn't get "alternative" airplay is because radio programmers/alternative listeners with a myopic view of rock history automatically associate Crimso with that great dinosaur evil of the 70s, progressive rock. If we understand alternative (whatever that is) to be the 90s descendent of punk, which was in many ways a reaction to the excesses of progressive rock, then the very name King Crimson would be "guilty by association" in the minds of many alternative programmers/fans who never even bothered to check out the 80s Crimson, much less the 90s. My freshman history-of-rock class last year had never heard Crimson (one student I think heard "Sex Sleep Eat Dream" *once*...); they had the predictable "okay but kinda pretentious" reaction to the 69-74 incarnation but were genuinely surprised at how fresh the 80s incarnation sounded (and how much it reminded them of Talking Heads), and then when I played them "Indiscipline" off the _Live in Japan 1995_ video I could have scooped up seven or eight jaws off the floor. I have a suspicion that if ELP, for example, or Yes put out an album of the most "alternative" stuff imaginable (let's say, free-jazz techno-jungle with industrial guitar and samples of William Burroughs' voice... ;-} ), it would still never get heard by the bulk of the alternative market because everyone would assume it would be another fossil art-rock retread. What do you all think? Kevin Holm-Hudson Department of Academic Studies and Composition Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 (847) 491-5703 e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu It is a curse [having hip parents]. It means you have to veer off and find something that's really horrible and despicable that your parents are not gonna like. It may end up that you're determined to like the Spice Girls precisely because your parents don't like them. -- David Byrne It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. -- The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ From: Keith Burns Subject: The Brain Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:30:39 +0100 I recently saw a tangential reference in someone's post to "The Brain" or possibly just "Brain". This reminded me of a conversation I had with a guy I played briefly in a band with a few years back. There were five of us (plus a bass, a guitar, a keyboard and parts of drum kit) squeezed into an old Mini en route to a gig in another city. I happened to mention my fondness for all things Krimson/Fripp and Lenny the guitar player, who turned out to have encyclopaedic knowledge of 60s garage and psychedelic music, said "Oh yeah ... Fripp! I've gotta play you "The Brain"! Of course, we never arranged this, the band fell apart soon after, and I lost contact with Lenny. I have never heard or seen any other mention of this band/project/record/whatever-it-is. Can someone give me more information? Keith Burns Edinburgh Scotland ------------------------------ From: DavidLee dot Ressel at viacom dot com Subject: Response to ET #409 Date: 04 Sep 1997 13:54:30 -0400 in ET #409 Michael Damian Jeter wrote > Ryecatch wrote > The name King Crimson is derived from Beelzebub... > In addition to the above, which is all right on the _, I think it should > also be mentioned that Blake spoke about the demonic not as evil, but that > which breaks rules, esp. meaningless ones. With embarrassed recollection from my giddy adolescent days, I had a far more prosaic interpretation for the name King Crimson., viz, a euphemism for the phallus (didn't we all have a Beavis and Butt-head stage when EVERYTHING was a euphemism for the penis). Although, now that I'm mature (yeah sure), I prefer the Blake and iconoclastic interpretations, actually who cares what it means ...it just sound cool, or rather...it doesn't suck. For that matter, --with a nod and wink to my failed religious upbringing-- Beelzebub and the male member are pretty much the same thing after all, aren't they ? :-) . Regards. DL ------------------------------ From: "=?ISO-8859-2?Q?D=E1vid_S=E1ndor?=" Subject: Improved Sound Limited "A Soldier's Song Book" Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:56:37 +0200 Could ANYBODY help me? There was a Germany progressive group in the 70's, named Improved Sound Limited. I am looking for their "A Soldier's Song Book" LP or CD(?). I tried to purchase this record from London to Singapore in 2345 shops or tried to order online without any success. Thank you in advance any information. Dave P.S> STARLESS is the BEST. ------------------------------ From: treestump at earthlink dot net Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 14:05:58 -0400 Subject: Frippertronics @ home, etc. I would like to hear this disscussion of "Home Frippertronics" continue. Both the info. on what various et-ers employ and any insight into exactly what Fripp does is of interest to me. Like most non-millionaire guitarists, my set up is simple (at present). My frippery is basically produced by the digitech 2 sec. delay and the various delay capabilities of the digitech rp-1. Also helpful (in generating a wide range of sounds) is the digitech (does this sound like an endorsement or what?) whammy pedal, which not only bends pitches up (2 octaves) and down (one octave), but generates various single-note harmonies (that is, intended for single note use, however, like Gabrels, I enjoy the gurgling sound of a harmonizer confused by chords. I would like to add a 4 sec. delay to thew end of my chain to further enhance layering capabilities, but for the moment, I can produce modest "soundsketches" and overlapping guitar bits that sound vaguely like crafty/fripp-belew bits. Questions: 1. I have been test-driving the Roland gr-30 guitar-synth. I have heard nothing but good about it. Does anyone own this unit, and have you discovered bugs or is it wonderful? 2.Does anyone have the famed 16 sec. delay? How do you like? What was the cost? 3. What ever happened to the echoplex unit that Brian May used to use? Does anyone out there use it? What does Brian use now? 4.Does anyone use Revox machines, like Fripp? what are the pros and cons? 5. Fripp, Belew, and Gabrels often go without conventional amplifiers, opting instead for digital speaker simulators and using the PA. Has anyone out there made this leap? Why? 6. What are some other small, funky delays and such that people like for "Frippertronic"-like sound? enough. Dave D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:53:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Mrkndrew at aol dot com Subject: Silent Night Watch 'tingles' I've been reading ET ever since I went 'online' a year and a half ago, but this is my first contribution. It seems to fit in the 'tingles' category. I like art, OK? I'm just not that familiar with artists and their works, except for a few. But, I always loved the song "The Night Watch" which I always took to be about an old painting, the artist, and the subjects of the painting. Back in '76, I spent a month back-packing around Europe with 5 friends (I live in the USA). This was just a couple years after SABB with "The Night Watch" was released. The scenes of Europe kept bringing Crimson songs and lyrics to mind, but that is another story..... We spent three days in Amsterdam and one of those days we toured art museums. At one of the museums (a huge one , as I recall), I walked into a fairly large room. On the wall was just a single painting about 3 meters tall and 6 meters wide (seriously) - it was huge! It was quite impressive inspite of being (like most paintings in this museum) "dark with age". After several minutes of taking it in, I walked over to the 'name plate'. The artist was Rembrandt, the painting title "The Night Watch". Bells rang, lights went on, and 'tingles', all without a note being played. If any fellow Crim-Heads make it to Amsterdam, be sure to check it out. It will be a true Crimson moment, at least it was for me. P.S. You might take along a CD walkman and the SABB disc! ------------------------------ From: anon01 at mlode dot com (Anonymous01 Anon1) Subject: 3 of a Perfect Pair laser disc. Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:00:36 -0700 While driving under the influence on the information superhighway one recent evening, I came across the "3oapp Live in Japan" laser disc for sale. I could be mistaken, but I thought perhaps I'd seen a posting of a request for that very item, at some indeterminate point and time, on the net. ("I'm afraid I can't recall the exact details, Senator." -- Ronald Reagan.) Anyway, I found it at the following location: www.cybercom.net/~lennys/. Since I don't own a laser disc player, I thought the proper course would be to pass it along. Then again, maybe no one cares...Incidentally, I am currently listening to Deep Purple's "Concerto for Group and Orchestra" (1969?). Try it, you might like it...My condolences to all you Britons out there, in this dark hour. It should have been Charles instead! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:53:53 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Mars & fogeyism >From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com > >I stopped by my old school today and what should I find in the music >departments collection but "Gustav Holst - The Planets" on CD. So I stuck >it in the CD player and spent an hour listening. It was REALLY good. Mars >was thickly arraigned, dynamic, and evil! Am I the only one here who played "Mars" in high-school marching band? :) (I played clarinet, if you must know. And hey, it's not easy marching in 5/4 time!) >From: "Douglas Robillard" >Subject: Peter Sinfield Lyrics > >...they're definitely several notches >above the "come on baby/don't say maybe" school of puerile rock lyrics. I just attempted to carbon-date this comment, and came up with approximately 1959 A.D. Your analysis, Spock? Eb ------------------------------ From: "Glenn Astarita" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #413 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 20:59:09 -0500 A pal (jazz critic) just recieved a cd on DMG records of a new Bill Bruford cd.... There are no liner notes.....seems like an advanced copy. Anyone know of this ? Could it be material from the vaults ? I haven't been reading ET lately due to time constraints and so on..... thanks, glenn ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 06:31:40 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Thanks,Lizards,Stu Hamm Yo, Just wanted to use this special form to thank Jacck Czuba, Neil Talbot,and Robert Cambra for the super tapes they made me...so cool! Also a special thanks to drummer Stephanie Piot for keeping me in ET all summer....a blessing. And ET staff for my FIX... Had Lizards on album and tap.> Wife bought it for me for my orbitday. Now I can't get it out of my head...So for you KC fans that can't wait for something new check out the archeives....a true pleasure! Now I am going to buy IWOTP even though I have it on tape and album, it like being reunited with an old dear friend. Now at the Pittsburgh 3G's Soundscapes the one bass player for Satreoni played a bass solo of Beatle Medley that was SO Cool. Was this Stu Hamm that was mentioned in the last ET ? Oh, I also checked out the Trey Gunn web site and AB site both had much new knowledge for KC rabid fans ! Take Care, Joe Basile [Mike did the baby come?] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:39:11 -0400 (EDT) From: KRosser414 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Free Jazz & Freeform Freakouts >I'm indebted to Ken Rosser for his detailed response on this subject, which >takes it further than we'd been before. My pleasure - I relish the chance to de-lurk and jump in on a subject that's close to my heart. > But I think we need to clarify our >definitions. "Improvisation" is not synonymous with "free jazz" or "free >improvisation," for that matter. Couldn't agree more, they are all distinctly different. >Collective, or group improvisation, is as old as jazz, and was - within >an accepted framework - the backbone of early jazz. Absolutely. As you went on to point out riffing, etc. were all born as improvised moments within the structure. Even earlier, improvised cadenzas in the classical period. Even earlier, Baroque accompanists on harpsichord freely interpreting figured bass. Hell, improvisation in a general sense is as old as organized sound itself. The distinction that I credit Tristano (for group) and Bechet, Reinhardt and Tatum (for unaccompanied solo) for is presenting free improvisation (that is, based on no pre-existing or predetermined form) as a finished piece of music rather than embellishment or a part of the compositional process (which are nonetheless very valid and usefull applications for improvisation, absolutely). I think the coming of age of recording technology is in large part responsible for being able to document a free improvisation and then present it as a finished product. Since Bach had to write them down to present them, it wasn't free improvisation anymore. I think we're probably agreeing here. >In this context Tristano's 1949 recordings, cited by Ken, are of both >historical and musical importance, but I'm not sure they prefigure later >"free jazz." I agree. I give Tristano credit for being there first, but i won't go so far as to say he "caused" free jazz to happen as a movement. Rather, I regard Tristano, Ornette, Dolphy and free jazz as symptomatic of something that had to happen in American music, as well as art & literature and a few decades later the structure of the society itself. If it wasn't them, it would have been someone else soon. >Among the influences Ken believes acted upon Coltrane, the name of Eric>Dolphy >should be added. Of course. Obvious oversight on my part. And now, to bring this full circle, the tie to Crimson: I hear "Requiem" on Beat as a dead ringer for the Coltrane/Pharoah Sanders group, with the two guitarists taking the part of each, Fripp and Belew respectively. Anyone else? >It's hard to realize that I am reminiscing about stuff that happened >forty years or so ago; I guess I have achieved old-coot-ness.... 'Round these parts we call it 'wisdom'... All the best, Ken R ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 16:45:39 +0200 From: Alex Brugger Organization: Physics Department, University of Erlangen, Germany Subject: lyrics etc hi there, reading Doug's remarks on lyrics and poetry in ET 413 I can only agree with one test of lyrics being how they actually sound when sung with the song and by the singer they were written for. it's definitely true, they don't *have* to look like Shakespearean poetry when written down on a sheet of paper. and when reading about the Elephant Talk lyrics, the LOG song Under Heavy Manners came to mind (not sure about the track name - the one sung by David Byrne anyway) - when only reading these lyrics one might think what a heap of bullshit THIS is; but when you actually listen to the song and especially David's extremely ...well....unconventional way of reciting them it's all completely different - and absolutely great too. so it's not only the words that matter but also their intention in connection with the song & lineup. and in this context allow me to add that IMHO there's nothing to say against the occassional really and utterly silly lyric (eg. Peoria, SSEDD...?! :-) ).... best wishes, Alex ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:52:43 -0500 Subject: huh? mike dickson seems to assume that because i mentioned 24 keys etc. in the same sentence as "everything's been done" that somehow i meant its all been done within the tonal system. for a start this was merely a response to someone else. please don't assume my ignorance from a single sentence. but, to further your point, harry partch has done harry partch, eno has done eno, riley has done riley, glass has done glass, webern has done webern, india ragas have been done for 1000 years, gemalan has been done by gemalans, ives has done ives. satie, has done satie, yes has done yes, elp has done elp. crimson has done crimson, cage has done cage and not done cage by doing cage. so the question is how does your example of my ignorance extinguish the debate of what's "been done"? one can obviously recombine all these styles plus more in a million subtle ways and feel they have created something new but a completely new style free of a musical history? good luck! sure there my be something somewhere that has NOT been done but then the question is has it not been done because someone smarter than me (perhaps yourself) hasn't thought of it or because (like the work of milton babbit and numerous serial composers of the 1950's) in the end no one cared. harry partch may have done something new but besides yourself and music history writers, who cares? do you actually like partch in a personal meaningful way or is he a scapegoat for you to hang your opinions on? just because someone does something "different" doesn't mean its good. and of course we can debate that whole concept til the dead horses come home. a good example could be crimson themselves. from all i've read (frame by frame and great deciever booklets etc.) it wouldn't suprise me that the 90's crimson went back to the red era crimson precicely because so many fans and critics said it was their favorite style. has it been done? yes!! do i actually care? not at all!! is there new music still being written? yes!! has it in some way been done before? yes!! do i care? no!! music is my life, both classical and rock,. it is the air i breathe. i've breathed before, but i think some time soon i'll do it again. thank you once again for showing me the errors of my ways, i feel enriched beyond words. ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:36:46 -0500 Subject: fripp , money and image i'd like to share some thoughts about the recent letter of mark fenkner. although i do see your point about fripp's discussions of money and image i have always felt his discussions were an attempt by him to clarify to the average music fan the complex difficulty of being a professional musician, especially a non-commercial progressive rock musician. i think many people believe someone like fripp hangs out in his medieval castle shoveling money out of the way to answer the door. although i don't believe he is what you would call poor, the feeling i get is that he must constantly look over his shoulder and has gotten burned many times. his discussions to me make him more human and show the music business to be a dangerous place to try to create "art". the same with image. i think he tries to thwart peoples expectations and stereotypes. think of him what you will. i have nothing but respect for him to continue to do his choice of profession. like he himself once wrote, "once one finds out what is involved to become a professional musician, only an idiot would do it. only become a professional musician if you have no choice." ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #415 ********************************