Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #414 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 414 Friday, 5 September 1997 Today's Topics: Phase 1 - Tour dates Dec '97 Bootleg, dreams, shivvers, etc. What is Fripp's opinion of digital (vs. analog) recording Re: Disgusting KC at HORDE New website *Progressive Spiral* seeks comments from Crimson/Wetton enthusiasts Classical theme vs. structure 'Sometimes God Hides' I know, it's only semantics... Giles Muir and Cunningham Cords Released! News on Hammill, Craney and King Biscuit. Poor sound on KC "Live in Japan" video erm... the Beatles, I'm afraid... Dficil_Equilibrio_en_concierto_!! Et ReaderShip Mellotron sounds on Crimso tunes Fripp and Apocalypse Fripp's love of money and image? Pleasure in Pieces Peter Banks Money for Music, Copyrights for Free CD wanted DGM USA/Possible Productions Review Of New Crimson CD Italian Bootleg Discography re: "Sartori in Tangier" rights, etc. John Wetton's appearance at London Playback Fripp in concert Trey Gunn on Warr Guitar ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: "Aidan Naughton" Subject: Phase 1 - Tour dates Dec '97 Date: Thu, 04 Sep 97 11:57:31 PDT There's a listing in this week's Time Out for Phase 1 (Fripp, Bruford, levin, Gunn) at the Jazz Cafe, London - they are playing 4 nights - Dec 1 - 4. I don't know any more than this - unfortunately I can't make any of these gigs - was wondering if they are playing any others. PS I've tried to email Richard Chadwick at Opium Arts but the link is no longer valid. Yours - Aidan Naughton [ Mysterious news indeed. Any insights about Phase 1 are very welcome -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:11:50 -0700 From: Herb Boardman Subject: Bootleg, dreams, shivvers, etc. Organization: Ministry of Stacking Things on Top of One Another Goodday, all. A few $'s worth: 1. Lots of drooling about cd vs. cassette or analog v. digital. My 2cents: I recently purchased Lizard on cd, put it into my portable, put on the cans (headphones), and...SURPRISE! It sounded awful. Horrible. My EYES ached! Anyone else ever notice this? The cassette copy, although quite used, still sounds much more intense and real. 2. A few weeks ago I went to a 'party' at a friend's house. Lots of lawn-dweller/hippie-types who we (the cool bunch) wanted gone. A 'well-endowed' female acquaintance of ours has a nasty habit of inviting strange males to our social gatherings, getting drunk, passing out, and leaving us to 'entertain' these horny got-nones. My bulb must have been hot that day, because I took Thrakkattack to see the reaction of the hornies/hippies. And? They all left. All of them. I told them, upon their query, that I was putting in the new En-Vogue. And they all were frightened, shaken, and puzzled enough to drive them from the house. 3. I have a shit-quality bootleg (on VIP, Italy) with 8 songs: 4 with Muir, 4 w/o. The 'withs' are Larks 1, Easy Money, Train to Health, and Larks 2. Not recommended. Terrible sound quality on those 4, but the second 4 leads me to numberrrrrrrrrr........ 4. The second 4 consists of Great D., Lament, The Night Watch, and Starless and bible black (which is actually Starless from Red), with Bruford, Cross, Fripp, and Wetton. The version of the Night Watch on this cd is the same one found on the GD box set. Here's the stumper: In the scrapbook to GD, RF states that the featured version of Night Watch was actually two shows stuck together, due to technical errors at both shows. When did Fripp make this adjustment and how-in-hell did this bootleg get it? Apart from stealing it, that is. Litigation, anyone? 5. About the dream with the crimson king bursting forth from the speakers: I've had many dreams of either playing (I play drums, bass, guitar, and piano, so the instances are varied) an original piece or hearing one. These are very real, and I consider them privileges. 6. The biggest tingles I get from music can be found in Yes's "Ritual--Nuos Some Da Somethingorother" from Tales from Topographic Oceans. They occur without fail during the percussion movement about 14 minutes into the piece. I imagine beasts and fire rising from massive girders on an enormous stage in front of a sell-out crowd. Works every time. Regards, Mike Holst I hate those stupid quotes people put on the end of their mail. --Claude Finn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 21:43:57 -0400 (EDT) From: NYLifer at aol dot com Subject: What is Fripp's opinion of digital (vs. analog) recording Subject says it all. Just curious. Hopefully if Mr. Fripp answers it will be more expansive than my concise question. Peace, Robert ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 03:56:10 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Re: Disgusting KC at HORDE Well, I would appear that at least some of my comments on this topic are the result of a semantic misunderstanding (what isn't nowadays?) and perhaps I owe you an apology Michael. When you said you were disgusted to see KC on the HORDE tour, I took that to mean that you were disgusted to see that they were a part of HORDE. I did *not* realize that you meant that you had actually *seen* them at HORDE and your disgust was a result of that particular experience. Obviously I can offer no comments about how good the experience was or wasn't since I wasn't there (and somehow the HORDE gig in Boston didn't dent my consciousness until two days after the fact). It sounds as though the band was in bad form on the show you saw, and that you feel the venue was partially to blame. Sounds like a valid criticism to these newly informed ears. Sorry - I thought we were discussing philosophical differences rather than actual reactions. I stand corrected. (My comments regarding greed vrs. making a living stand, although I'd like to say that my ire was not specifically a result of your letter, but a variety of things I've been hearing over the years.) Also, I have been thinking about one of my comments since posting: >King Crimson is still King Crimson, whether in the context of the HORDE >tour, headlining their own show, or a public washroom. Perhaps true in theory, but in reflection I realized there could be many factors that could make it a less desirable situation for the truly attentive KC fan. One would be length - does KC get to do their full two hour set, or wind up cutting it back to 45 shoe horned minutes? Another would be one you sited: a disinterested audience interfering with a interested attendee's ability to concentrate on the music (or for that matter hear or see it). In regard to the last, however, I might share a story from Boston '95 (a KC headline w/ California Guitar Trio opening) . Through the grace of the gods, I somehow managed to score 4 very wonderful 4th row seats, just a hair to the left of Levin. Should have been paradise. However one pair of rather talkative people had scored a pair of seat in row three, just in front of us, and another gregarious soul held an extended conversation with his girlfriend one row behind and a little to the left. Now as all of you probably know, KC in concert can be loud. When you're 15 feet away from a P.A. cabinet, it can be VERY loud. But at this concert I learned that the human voice can be very capable of competing with modern sound reinforcement equipment. I'm not sure if these guys were KC fans, or play-by-play announcers, but on both sides there was an audible running commentary during the ENTIRE show. And somehow I just couldn't bring myself to the absurdity of tapping any of them on the shoulder and screaming, "COULD YOU PLEASE STOP SCREAMING TO YOUR FRIENDS SO THAT I CAN CONCENTRATE ON THIS INCREDIBLY LOUD MUSIC, THANK YOU!" Then, to cap it all off, as we were leaving at the end I hear the guy in front of me say to his friend, "Well, these seats sure were worth $50." Holy moley: you just paid $50 for a $25 ticket, and you talked through the whole thing." It really put some of Fripp's notorious on-stage admonitions into context for me. (My favorite is from '73 or '74: "Two apologies. First to those who are standing up in the back, sorry for the discomfort... and we'd also like to apologize to those who's conversations we're interrupting.") Then again, last time I was at Symphony Hall I, a long haired, bearded, thirty year old, was required to give a pair of grey-haired sixty-something ladies behind me a long reproachful stare in order to encourage them to pick up their conversation *after* the conclusion of Beethoven's Seventh Symphony. What is the world coming to? Regards, Ken Lacouture P.S. Scott Gould writes: >> I seem to recall reading somewhere that the voices in the background of >> Larks Tongues Part 1 was a television broadcast of a Shakespeare play (I >> don't remember which one). The way I heard it was that it was just a >> random thing thrown into the mix on the spur of the moment. Ohhh, Scott, you're going to be soooooo embarrassed: right story, wrong band. You're thinking of "I Am the Walrus". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:38:18 +0100 From: progressive dot spiral at writeme dot com Organization: "PROGRESS" magazine + PROGRESSIVE SPIRAL website Subject: New website *Progressive Spiral* seeks comments from Crimson/Wetton enthusiasts PROGRESSIVE SPIRAL is a new website, of which I am maintainer, relating to Progressive music, ideas & ideals. Earlier this month a concert organiser friend in Italy asked my colleague & me to recommend the best British-based band to perform at the *Progressivamente* festival in Italy on 11-12 September. We said JOHN WETTON & BAND! Happily, on 29 August we heard Mr. Wetton & colleagues became booked to perform at this open-air festival on 12 September. The venue is called *Testaccio Village*, alongside the River Tiber in the city of Rome. Last year's festival had an attendance of 12,000! Readers of the superb ELEPHANT TALK website are invited to contribute comments, regarding this performance, to the Guestbook of PROGRESSIVE SPIRAL. Meanwhile, before getting out your notebook to take to that event, you are invited to write for the PS readership about any of JW's or CRIMSON & related recordings and concerts. We need a diversity of artists to be covered, and let's face it KING CRIMSON music really does progress! For those who enjoy reading Guestbooks, but not leaving a message, there is no need to feel intimidated. Writing for the public at large is just like creating a personal letter to a penfriend or relative - only more people get to see it! People for whom English is not a native language have no need to be shy because maybe their grammar or spelling is not perfect - most readers find it sort of *romantic* when sentences are a little strange! Certainly in England it is so. Looking forward to hearing from you at : http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/2757 Yours in music, Tiz Hay ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: Classical theme vs. structure Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:03:01 -0700 From: Ted White Subject: FW: Self Corrections, Etc. >Barry Hecht asks "what classical themes" Grant Colburn was referring to >in reference to Yes. My impression is that Yes never borrowed >classical THEMES - they used classical STRUCTURE in the composition >of their longer works. Or so they claimed at the time. This is exactly right, Mr. White. Yes, it is true Wakeman on solos has actually used "themes" taken directly from the classics, but YES only based their compositions on structure. You hit it on the nail. :) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE LOVING HOW WE INTERTWINE OUR VERY SOUL ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 13:49:06 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: 'Sometimes God Hides' Not **exactly** a King Crimson related topic, but for those of you who haven't done so yet, I *implore* you to get a hold of a copy of 'Sometimes God Hides', the DGM sampler CD. I got my copy yesterday and I'm now playing it for the eighth time already. At 4.00 UKP this has to be steal of the year - there simply isn't a bad track on the collection. Actually it goes further than that - nearly every track on the album is a gem, at at 79 minutes playing time it's certainly well-filled. Congratulations to whoever it was that assembled this CD. This is the most fun I've had since THRaKaTTaK! Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Fax 0131-653-6124 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Columnated Ruins Domino ------------------------------ Subject: I know, it's only semantics... Date: Sun, 31 Aug 97 12:17:47 -0000 From: QUOTED: I don't know how much of a natural musician he is since (please, no flames on this one) his playing feels laboured (could be a part of his style/training). Nevertheless, he plays from the heart, so that's pretty much all that matters, doesn't it? Funny, I feel just the opposite. My take is that RF's playing is fluid as opposed to labored, and that he plays from his hands much more than his heart. Anyway, can anybody tell me exactly where RF put his hands when he played the electric guitar solo on Sylvian's 'Taking the Veil'? That's a mysterious tingly solo if ever I heard one... Mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 16:03:33 -0400 From: Sid Smith Subject: Giles Muir and Cunningham A couple of editions ago someone asked about Giles Muir and Cunningham and wanted to know a bit more. As an album, Ghost Dance has its origins back in 1983 when film maker Ken McMullen commissioned the trio to provide the score for the film of the same name. According to Cunningham in the sleeve notes, the film explored the collision between ethnic cultures and Western cities. The music of Ghost Dance echoes these concerns, inhabiting as it does, the twilight world between the technological and so called primitive societies. Intuitive group improvisations, using what Cunningham describes as non-tech instrumentation, have been processed and manipulated in the studio to produce a strange melange of natural and electronic voices. The resulting music articulates the tensions and contradictions between two differing approaches (structure versus free form improvisation) and comes together to provide an interesting though by no means unique hybrid. The pervasive industrial tones and gratings, provided via the various loops and treatments of Cunningham, describe a dysfunctional, jarring, and unnatural world in stark contrast to the fresh, organic rhythms provided by Giles and Muir. As one might imagine, with Giles and Muir in the line - up, there is an emphasis on things percussive. Tracks like "Scratching The Curve" and "Spillers Village" could probably be described as world music, stopping somewhere between Java and Africa with a dynamic work out with talking drums (yes, the very one by the sound of it), handclaps and shakers. Elsewhere, "Screenwash" has drums bursting all around like fireworks whilst distorted guitar dodges and dives between the explosions. Yet it's not all pyrotechnics. "Cascade" tells a simple child's fairy story using evocative thumb piano to weave gorgeous interlocking melodies and the melancholic "The Moving Cymbal" has a darkly ethereal quality which moves in and out of the aural focus. Here it is the turn of Muir and Giles to provide the dissonance with temple bells and other metalics. Other highlights of this set include "Slow Motion" which sounds like a didjeridu on speed and the strangely beautiful "Pascale". This last track features a clearly discernible Michael Giles singing indecipherable lyrics which are in turn slowly roasted over a fire of scrapings, whisperings and reversed tape hiss. This is not by any means easy listening. Nor is it however, difficult or austere. Certainly there is a sombre aspect to much of the proceedings but it is not without moments of playfulness, joy and humour. With the whole album coming in at a little under one hour, the average length of each title is somewhere in the three minute mark. This can sometimes give the music an incomplete and fragmented feel to it. That said, it means that with two notable exceptions which extend over six minutes, the album consists of short bite sized chunks which keep you on your toes. Those buying this to find any musical Crimson references will be disappointed. However, Giles, Muir and Cunningham share and display all of the skill, energy and judgement which one would associate with Crimson and as such should deserve your interest. Credits Recorded 3 - 6 May 1983. Compiled for CD by Michael Giles and David Cunningham in July 1995. Michael Giles: kit drums, assorted percussion, mouth horns, mouth reeds, bow, voice, keyboard. Jamie Muir: assorted percussion, hand drums, bow, thumb piano, mouthpiece, conch. David Cunningham: loops, treatments, guitar, occasional percussion. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:49:11 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Cords Released! News on Hammill, Craney and King Biscuit. Hello Friends: Well, it's official. The Synergy album, Cords, is now available. It just came in a couple days ago and I had a couple very long nights getting all the pre-orders ready for shipment. You'll now find a soundbite up for Cords at . Don't forget that The Artist Shop is co-hosting with Talk City the online CD Release Party for this event to which you all are invited. The event will be this Wednesday, September 3 at 9 pm eastern time. Larry Fast will be the guest of honor and will be talking about the making of Cords as well as taking your questions. And I'm sure many of you will be curious to ask about such things as his recent concert activity with Wendy Carlos and the reformation of the band, Nektar. He will also be giving away an autographed copy of Cords sometime during the event. I'm especially pleased to be doing this in conjuction with Talk City who approached me about co-hosting some chats together. Not only can their IRC channels be accessed with IRC software, but they have a website interface so that those who don't have the right software can join the chat through their web browsers! I was easily able to access their irc server through my Netscape browser. But what really shocked me was that I was able to access their server through the less-than-acceptable AOL browser with absolutely no problem at all! I'm especially pleased with this as many of you on AOL have tried so hard to join Artist Shop chats in the past only to find it difficult to impossible to do so from AOL. Full details on how to access the chat can be found at . I hope to see you all there! Peter Hammill has a new album coming out on his Fie! label . It's called 'Everyone You Hold' and is slated to be released sometime around October 13. As soon as I get more info on this release, I'll pass it along. For now you'll find it listed at our Fie! page and you can pre-order it. Also, King Biscuit Flower Hour has a new batch of CD's on the release schedule. Slated for release on September 16 are The Dixie Dregs and Motorhead. Then on October 28 Gentle Giant, Iggy Pop and Streets. Streets is a band with Kansas alumni. You'll find these listed on our King Biscuit page and you can pre-order them. Not too long ago I brought you information on the Mark Craney benefit CD. Interest has been high and sales have been good. Recently Bill Forth of Ten Seconds sent me some information about a performance benefit for Mark that's coming up this weekend! Those of you who love drums and drummers will really be salivating over this one. Here are the details Bill sent me: SPECIAL BENEFIT CONCERT EVENT Mark Craney & Friends A Day of Drums and Music, Pt. II GUITAR CENTER, 7425 Sunset Blvd., HOLLYWOOD Sunday, September 7,1997; 1:00 - 7:00 p.m. Veteran drummer Mark Craney is ill and in need of an immediate kidney and pancreas transplant. To help him, his friends are banding together in support. Don't miss an incredible day of music, and help a great drummer keep the beat. * Win! A complete DW drum set, plus snare drums, cymbals, hardware and more percusssion gear * Wow! $15.00 admission, plus a chance to win drawing prizes. Many of the world's most renown and respected drummers on one stage: TERRY BOZZIO STEVE SMITH PETER ERSKINE TRIO GREGG BISSONETTE WALFREDO REYES, JR. DOANE PERRY AYNSLEY DUNBAR LUIS CONTE CARMINE APPICE MYRON GROMBACHER CHAD SMITH (Confirmed as of 8/27/97, with more being added daily.) Plus performances by: ERIC BURDON BAND THE MUSTARD SEEDS ALLSTAR BAND, w/ Mike Miller, Alex Ligertwood, Richard Baker, Jimmy Haslip and Mark Craney. Plus guest appearances and host personalities to be announced. TICKETS AT GUITAR CENTER AND PARTICIPATING MUSIC OUTLETS. Presented by The Woodland Hills Drum Club That line-up of drummers is just too awesome to be believed!!! If you're in that area, please don't miss that event. The above details are also posted on our New Label page right below all the details on the Mark Craney benefit disc. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 06:04:54 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: Poor sound on KC "Live in Japan" video This past weekend I had my first opportunity since buying the KC "Live in Japan" video nearly a year ago, of hearing it through a hi-fi VCR hooked up to a good sound system. The result was, to say the least, very disappointing. The sound level on the tape is way too high, resulting in clipping and popping, mainly in the right channel, on things like applause and snare drum beats. Even on quietish tracks like "One Time" the level indicator was way over into the red. I also tried a couple of other hi-fi videos through the same set up. These sounded just fine, and the output level indicator showed normal levels. So the problem is with the "Live in Japan" tape, not the VCR. I'm wondering it this is a problem peculiar to the PAL version: I may invest in an NTSC version to find out (expensive way of finding out, but what else can I do?) It sounds fine on my own mono VCR through the television, by the way. The problem only becomes apparent when you play it through a good hi-fi setup. It is a pity that DGM, who take such care with their CD releases (e.g. "Epitaph") did not apply the same standards to this video. One hopes that they will for the Frejus and Japan '84 videos. I am very disappointed. David Maclennan (PS: the "Careful With That Axe" Fripp/Crafties video, which according to its case is also a hi-fi stereo tape, is in fact in mono, as I found out when trying this through the same system). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:17:40 +1200 (NZST) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: erm... the Beatles, I'm afraid... >In 410, Stephen Arthur asked if there were any musicians who had a more >prolific period than Bruford's Close To The Edge/LTIA period....uh, Miles >Davis put out four albums in 1955-1956: "Workin;," "Steamin'," "Cookin'," >and "Relaxin'." In '57 Miles put out "Miles Ahead," "Milestones" and >"Porgy and Bess" came out in '58, "Sketches of Spain" and "Kind of Blue" >came out in '59 (the later is one of the most infuential albums of the >20th century). I'm amazed that no-one has mentioned that the first six Beatles albums were released between February 1963 and December 1965. Considering that during this time they also appeared in two full-length feature films, this is pretty astounding - especially when we are talking albums of the calibre and influence of Rubber Soul, Help and Hard Days Night. During these 35 months they also managed to squeeze in 205 concerts in 12 countries. and talking of the Bootles, Scott Gold remarks: >I seem to recall reading somewhere that the voices in the background of >Larks Tongues Part 1 was a television broadcast of a Shakespeare play (I >don't remember which one). The way I heard it was that it was just a >random thing thrown into the mix on the spur of the moment. Are you sure you're not getting this confused with the explanation for the voices at the end of the Beatles' "I am the Walrus" (which was a radio broadcast of King Lear thrown into the mix on the spur of the moment)? James ------------------------------ From: "Israel Coello" Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?D=EDficil_Equilibrio_en_concierto_!!!?= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:42:34 +0200 Hola a todos los hispano-parlantes en Elephant Talk. Ante todo disculpas al resto, pero desisto de escribir en ingles, ya que mi ingles es bastante malo... Bueno, anunciaros que Difmcil Equilmbrio, formacisn de Badalona(Barcelona), nos presentara su primer (y espero no el zltimo) trabajo discografico. La cita para este concierto es el 5 de Septiembre de 1.997 en la sala GARATGE de BARCELONA. Os recuerdo que esta formacisn, ha incluido en este trabajo una versisn del tema FRACTURE, digna de los mismisimos CRIMSON !!!! Mas info, escribirme a mi direccisn de E-MAIL. Israel Coello De La Rosa radix at redestb dot es ------------------------------ From: "Marc" Subject: Et ReaderShip Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:37:33 +0200 Hi !! As a K.C. fan I am, i'm a bit sorry to see how pour is the movement from the french Et Readers... And as i saw : no French E.T. readers team... So i awoke one morning and decided to change that situation, just to prove that French (enven if wer'e much more less people than in U.S.A....) are also great fans of K.C. & the members of the band, and can also be a bit more active than they are now... If anyone is interrested, you can contact me at : vesta at mail dot club-internet dot fr et longue vie au Roi Crimson !!! :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 15:53:17 +0300 From: Selinsky Organization: AT&T Subject: Mellotron sounds on Crimso tunes I have a few questions regarding which Mellotron patches are on certain Crimso songs. I always wondered, what was that "jamming" sound that comes on during the reprize of "The Court of the Crimson King" (Dance of the Puppets). I don't think it sounds like one the Farfiza organs McDonald was playing in the background, nor does it seem to have the attack and sustain of an electric guitar or bass, so perhaps it's a Mellotron patch. Number two, what was the mellotron patch used to open Exiles, which sound like cello's or double basses? Does that come with the standard "orchestra" compliment, or is it a separate patch? Third, on "Is There Life Out There", what is the mellotron patch that Cross jams on, together with his electric piano, (which sounds like some kind of organ)? I know he uses strings later, but the patch in the beginning sounds like something a bit different. Fourthly, what is the name of the horn like Mellotron patch that comes on right at the end of "In The Wake of Poseidon", and also makes appearances on "The Devil's Triangle"? Finally, does anyone know what Fripp's favorite fuzz tone was during his early carreer with Crimso? BTW , thanks for those who contributed suggestions for "Doctor Diamond" lyrics - I'll try to post a more correct version in the next issue. -George. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Sep 1997 16:42:24 -0500 From: Eric Thorson Subject: Fripp and Apocalypse This summer, my professor for New Testament Greek explained that the roots of the word we translate as "eternal'- aeonion, have not the sense of timelessness so much as the sense of a future time- the "aeon". This reminded me very much of the line in the written piece "Redemption" (on file here at ET, I think) where Fripp states that "The Future is in place, and waiting, but we have yet to discover it." It strikes me that Robert Fripp, more than any other contemporary musician I am aware of (I exclude those who work in a specifically religious marketplace) has involved himself in music that is "apocalyptic" in flavor and subject matter. "Apocalyptic", meaning both the time when the world we know comes to an end, and the moment of "Apocalypsis" when the true faces of things are revealed in the light of eternity. In "21st Century Schizoid Man", we have a dystopian prophecy of a humanity shredded by it's own technology. This is how I read "Cat's Foot- Iron Claw- Nerousurgeons scream for more" and "Nothing he's got- he really needs" in the song. Using a science fiction metaphor of cybernetic existence (Years before William Gibson) the lyricist issues a warning of our impending schism with reality. "Epitaph" carries very blatant apocalyptic themes- "The wall on which the prophets wrote is cracking at the seams"- A statement of a blinding paradigm shift leaving the spirit lost. "I fear tomorrow I'll be crying"- The confession of fear of a bleak, hellish future. With the releases of both "Let the Power Fall" and "1999", Fripp issued collections of frippertronic/soundscape instrumentals named after years that had yet to occur. In setting himself to projects like "The drive to 1981", I think Fripp was acting on the belief that the intervening years would unfold in such and such a way, and that such and such a response was called for from him during that time. Some things were possible (Frippertronics, League of Gentlemen, producing other artists) other things were not possible (Forming a world class rock act and going on major tours). His life was lived in the view that there are larger processes at work in the world, and one must try to live one's life and make one's decisions in light of them. Any fan of the "Milennium" television show, or reader of pulp-prophecy smut like Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth" is familiar with the widespread belief that something big is in store for us at the turn of the century/milennium. The world will end, or the Kingdom of God will arrive, or Jesus will reappear, or any number of other beliefs. 1999-2000 are loaded year numbers. There is widespread anxiety about them. I have no idea what Fripp's thoughts and beliefs are about those years, but I'll wager he's thought deeply about them. The sound of the 1999 album seems to me to be that of the artist/visionary reaching into the future (aeon?) to bring back something for us. First agonized (1999), at last hopeful/somber (2002), the album seems to envision a time of crisis. I have come to theorize that "The First Day", the Sylvian/Fripp album, is a concept album that works with the concept of apocalypse. The very title is loaded theologically. The first day of what? Not Fripp and Sylvian working together! The album seems to work with a framework of Fall/Redemption theology. "God's Monkey" working with both the concept of Fall from Grace and that of evolution, climbing the long ladder up from shame. In "Brightness Falls", The narrator complains and holes up in his own dark little self as the one he loves and the rest of the world are bathed in light. A similar idea is expressed in "The Blinding Light of Heaven" on the Damage CD. In 20th Century Dreaming, the narrator, probably an elder on a reservation, looks at his people and his culture, a long list of broken commitments, and concludes that he is "moving to the house of Love". In "Darshan" a pilgrim is "moving on the road to Graceland" He ain't talking about elvis. Darshan is an audience with a holy man. In "One Time", the lyrics speak of the dual existence of humanity- "One Eye goes laughing- One Eye goes crying" and there is much talk of waiting for that One Time. I realize that Fripp is not the lyricicst of the songs mentioned above, but I would put forth that the lyrics to these songs are written in coversation with Fripp and are likely indicative of things that are on his mind as well as that of the lyricist. At any rate, these are the pieces of music that Fripp has involved himself with, and I find it intriguing that Fripp is working with these ideas. One last anecdote about my Greek instructor- He was talking about the "Way of the Flesh" harped on incessantly in the Pauline Epistles, and described that it all boils down to "Sex Sleep Eat Drink..." Eric J. Thorson ------------------------------ From: "Mark Fenkner" Subject: Fripp's love of money and image? Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 19:39:28 -0400 I have been listening to Robert Fripp's music for a long time and have always read anything about him/by him that I could find. He has influenced my life in many ways, musically being only a minor consideration, and he is one of the few men in this world that I truly look up to and greatly respect. But lately, I have come to suspect that maybe my ideas about him are not entirely accurate. I find it so very surprising how much effort he puts into arguing about money and what others think about him. Though I understand the (relative) importance of both, he seems only interested in conversing about these topics. I have seen people write on (what seems to be) important topics, such as the true place of music, or how to work towards finding the muse in music (and yourself), and I have written him in the past asking him questions that were very sincere, but these are never answered. Instead, he writes volumes about how he is not cheating people, or how people are rude and greedy, or anything else involving money and image. The biggest shocker was when he had the multi-page insert in one of his CDs written all about his battle for money. Yes, maybe I am still naive and maybe I am not such an advanced man as he portrays himself to be, but it is hard for people not to see him as a greedy man. Robert, if you ever care to answer, please tell us why you will not talk about music, why you will not talk about "evolution", why you will not answer "burning" questions, why you will not help others in thier work, yet you will write pages up pages about nickels and cents? If I am being rude, this is due to a lack of knowledge. Otherwise, it is well deserved. Sincerely, Mark Fenkner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:13:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: Pleasure in Pieces I found a bootleg in a record store in San Francisco called _Pleasure in Pieces_, but didn't buy it as it was quite expensive. (It was in a store right near Divisadero and Haight called something like "Another World", if anybody's interested in grabbing it.) But it piqued my curiosity: what kind of stuff is this? Is Fripp doing similar work to the early Frippertronics work? And who is the woman on the album? g ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Peter Banks Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:24:28 -0400 In 412 Mike Dowd asks if anyone remembers Flash and what happened to Peter Banks. Well, Mike, all the Flash albums are out on CD, as is the post-Flash Banks solo album. They all came out in the early 70's. Banks has put out at least two albums in the 90's, both on CD: in 1993 he released INSTINCT on the HTD label. (My copy is from Germany, licensed to ZYX Music: ZYX 20246-2.) In 1994 he recorded SELF-CONTAINED, released in 1995 in the US on One Way Records (OW 30339). The latter is almost 76 minutes long, the former a bit over 56 minutes. Flash played music not far removed from that of early Yes (no surprise - Banks was Yes' first guitarist), but a bit more muscular, more heavy on guitar, and a trifle, um, flashier. There is little or none of that to be found on Banks' 90's albums, but they are guitar albums. Essentially solo works (one or two other musicians contributed to a couple of tracks), they draw on MIDI technology to flesh out the sound, and Banks interpolates sound bites of various sorts (mostly from radio broadcasts) at spots. These are, at heart, very personal albums and would probably appeal to many Eters. I suspect they have attracted at best a cult audience. --TW (Dr. P) ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Money for Music, Copyrights for Free Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:09:40 -0400 In 412 Jeremy Weissenburger quotes me saying "...I think S&BB would have been a much stronger album with 'Starless' anchoring it," and asks "How can you say that, when 'Fracture' is such a wonderful closer?" This question strikes me as essentially from left field, since I was not suggesting "Fracture's" removal from the album, but rather the substitution of "Starless" for the improv titled "Starless & Bible Black," hypothetically, of course. Applause for Robert Cambra's thoughts on the subject of musicians and money. We all gotta live. The situation isn't much different for writers, or any artist who gets paid by the job rather than an ongoing wage. We do what we do for art, the inner muse, whatever - but we still eat, pay rent, and in the case of a musician, cover the many expenses of performance. You do what you can do, have to do, to be a good artist - and then you try to get as much money for it as you reasonably can so that you can go on to do the next piece of art. People who are purely consumers of art (in any of the media) need to realize this and not begrudge the artist the right to a living. Aus Matekudesy says "Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this but it is my understanding that in order for anyone to use any part of a copyrighted work they must obtain the permission or the proper licensing agreement from the creator or the holder of that copyright." Well, copyright law is a tangled thicket, the more so when you get into international copyright law and its conventions, and I don't know music copyright as well as I do written material copyright, but, that said, let me offer a correction: There are exceptions. One of them concerns quotation. One may quote from a work under review, for example, without requiring copyright-holder permission. One may quote from a work in order to argue with it, or to affirm it. Usually what is allowable is anything from a sentence to a few paragraphs, maybe up to a page or a bit more (this is not cut-and-dried), always assuming the quotes are correctly attributed and credited - no plagiarism is involved. In the context of music, I believe sampling has caused some legal disputes over what and how much of anything can be used. Obviously if a sample is recognizable there could be a legal problem. (But quite often the sample is processed sufficiently that its origin is obscured - which, I think, is the way it should be.) Jeremy Keens has a number of solid ideas on this subject in his post, and I agree with him that the core problem is the "reduction of artistic works to commodities." I watched Jeff Jones and Mike Hinge organize paperback cover artists and comics artists in an effort to gain some control over their works (selling only one-time reproduction rights to a painting, rather than selling the painting outright to a publisher; gaining a better price), and I think musicians need to follow the same path. Perhaps it boils down to leasing a recording to a label. We shall see. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ From: Robbie Subject: CD wanted Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:18:48 +0100 Hello, I'm looking for a copy of Fripp/League of Gentlemen on CD. The one with the pink cover with a drawing of a cat or something on it. I had the LP, but got rid of it when moving over to CD, sadly I have never been able to replace it. Does it exist ? Many thanks Robert ------------------------------ From: Kay Sahagian Subject: DGM USA/Possible Productions Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:04:38 -0400 I've been unable for weeks to access the Possible Productions/DGM USA web site. I want DGM USA to be my one-stop shop for Crimsonian merchandise, and I'd like to know if anyone else has been having difficulty accessing the site, or knows some information that the site is down, etc. Thanks. ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Tue, 02 Sep 97 22:36:56 -0400 Subject: Review Of New Crimson CD The following is a review of the King Crimson CD from the October 1997 edition of Playboy; "Most English progressive rock from the Seventies sounded pretentious. King Crimson was the exception. The first version of the band, which produced the epic 'In The Court of The Crimson King' (Featuring Greg Lake, Ian McDonald, and Robert Fripp), lasted only a year. Epitaph (Discipline Global Mobile) presents four live sets from the band's original lineup that prove they weren't just full of classical gas. The performances are as ferocious and daring as punk at it's height, but with a sound like a mix of Ornette Coleman, Jimi Hendrix, and Igor Stravinsky (DGM, P.O. Box 5282, Beverly Hills, CA 90209) - Vic Garbarini" I have not read a bad review of this disc yet!! Les ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 01:19:43 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Italian Bootleg Discography Not so very long ago, someone posted to ET giving the address of an Italian website that had color cover graphics and descriptions of a large number of KC vinyl bootlegs. I checked it out and found it fascinating from a historical perspective. But that was another time, another place and another computer. I don't have the URL for that site anymore and would love to see it again now that I'm browsing from home rather than work. Can anybody supply that URL? Private replies are fine. Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ From: DavidLee dot Ressel at viacom dot com Subject: re: "Sartori in Tangier" rights, etc. Date: 03 Sep 1997 13:28:30 -0400 In response to Aus's posting (ET#412 ) regarding the use of "Sartori in Tangier" on The Maxx for MTV and for sale at Blockbuster. I work for Viacom (parent company of both of MTV and BB) in an unrelated capacity. Although it is not my speciality, and I am NOT functioning as representative or legal counsel for Viacom or MTV, I was able to informally double check the rights and clearances. I can assure you that Messrs. Fripp, Levin, Bruford and Belew, through their agents, approved--and were paid for-- the use of their material. This process is done through a "synch license" which included videotape sales for a specified period of time. I am told that, unlike theatrical motion pictures, television programs do not require credit citations for use. I have been an lurker of ET for quite some time. I have been self-consciously hesitant to enter the ranks of posters, until now. I am drawn to this group not only because of my fondness for the music of Fripp & Co., but due to the recurring engaging discourse on the nexus of art and commerce. My background and present vocation often see these forces at odds. I come from family of classical musicians, and in university I supported myself as a professional musician [As a personal aside, I discovered "progressive" music and K.C. etc. after learning that my cousin's first job after conservatory was touring in an orchestra w/ ELP years ago. ] In contrast, my present vocation involves the business end of "art" [albeit motion pictures--where few claim "art"]. As such, talent are dealt with in a manner "outsiders" deem unfair (I make no defense, here). To wit, I do believe, unlike previous generations, the shadow of ethics over business is, indeed, more present in commerce, but believed to be absent due to, previously, poor past performance, perceived powerlessness, a few cases of egregious unconscionabilities, and sour grapes. [N. B. the alliteration was unintentional :-)] Otherwise, the recent discussions regarding fan/artist relations, fandom and fan culture are enlightening and intriguing (others interested in this topic may enjoy a forthcoming book from Oxford University Press, entitled "Tramps Like Us: Music and Meaning among Springsteen Fans" by Daniel Cavicchi or anent TV fandom I recommend "Textual Poachers" by Henry Jenkins). In this regard, I relate my first fan meeting with Mr. Fripp. Quite by I accident, I stumbled upon a Fripp in-store appearance at Tower Records. After performance and questions, a line for autographs was formed. The young lady with me, insisted that we wait for an autograph, even though she had never heard of K.C. or Fripp, and thoroughly disliked the performance [and answers, I recall]. However, upon reaching the front of the line she had nothing with her to autograph except a NYC Subway Map. She asked him to sign that---and he did. Only thing is, he signed it as "Ed Koch" [then NYC mayor]. ------------------------------ From: "Stevenson; David A" Subject: John Wetton's appearance at London Playback Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:44:22 -0400 I was just flipping through E.T.'s links and found out that John will be playing "Book of Saturday" at the playback along with music from other members of the 73'-74' lineup! John also has a biography coming out that includes unreleased photos and his feelings about playing with Crimson. This might be an alternative for the hard to find book by Eric Tamm on Fripp and Guitar Craft; by the way, I'd be happy to trade for a copy of that. Another quick thought; I know that this site creates issues, but let's stop the moaning and groaning and fill our head's with information, not crap! Dave Stevenson P.S. Doug Abshire, where are you!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:10:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Nameless to the Goddess Subject: Fripp in concert If Fripp went up to the mike and screamed, "ARE YOU READY TO ROCK?!?!" I think I would piss my pants laughing, and I guess we can't have that, can we? DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111 at afn dot org <*> Why am I such a dork? The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 The Naked Friends Network (beginning construction): .../friends.html B5 (passing beyond the Rim) list: babylon5-request at gatekey dot com ------------------------------ From: "Jason Bell" Subject: Trey Gunn on Warr Guitar Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:36:22 +0100 >ALSO OF INTEREST (Fripp's 70's sound is back for this Sylvian Fripp >project) >- The First Day Fripp and Sylvian with Trey Gunn on Warr Guitar >- Damage the Live Tour of The First Day with Pat Mastelotto on Drums Sorry to appear pedantic, but Trey did not use the Warr Guitar on the mentioned Sylvian/Fripp albums, he was still playing Chapman Stick at this point. I'm trying to avoid having a barage of Stick players complaining. Regards Jason Bell ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #414 ********************************