Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #413 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 413 Wednesday, 3 September 1997 Today's Topics: Laziness is good for you....apparently. Seen It All Before G3 Soundscapes guest soloist speaks confession ELP/KC, prog lyrics, and a question List Member Needs Place in KC, MO for Halloween Giles / Muir / Cunningham Re: liking/playing with Misc. responses part two Re: cheapo frippertronics New Gauchos Web Site obscure fripperies whoops! Polyrhythm Giles / Muir / Cunningham (fwd) Bootlegs; Sun Ra Frippertronics at the Ethical Society MUIR-ERA KC. TINGLES. MARS, the bringer of war Free Jazz & Freeform Freakouts whats "alternative" in Chicago Essential Frippery voices...I can hear voices KC Lyrics More Fripp In Concert ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Alan dot Maguire at mercer dot ie Subject: Laziness is good for you....apparently. Theres an interview with RF in this months Musician magazine which mostly talks about Guitar Craft and practicing 8 hours a day. Nothing much new in it except that Robert talks about the value of inactivity. Apparently sitting still and doing nothing is the way to musical nirvana....which may explain why a new KC album is still at least 18 months away. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:15:00 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: Seen It All Before Organization: Elephant Talk GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) wrote... > next, there are 24 keys, 12 majors and 12 relative minors, not > including 5 other possible modes for each of the 12 starting notes and > that doesn't count wholetone. gypsy modes etc. that said, i agree > everything's been done. I find I can hardly let this absolutely outrageous remark pass without comment. If you choose to limit yourself to the twelve-tone scales then you can hardly say that 'everything's been done' since you are some way off defining what 'everything' actually is. That's like saying that since you have seen a rainbow you are aware of every colour and hue in the spectrum. T'ain't necessarily so. Further to that, what is cited as being 'everything' hardly encompasses those composers who want to flirt with time signatures, keys and phrasing as the mood takes them within the same stave. May I suggest that the writer obtain some non-twelve-tone based music (such as that of Harry Partch) before such gross, sweeping generalisations are made? Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: 27 Aug 1997 14:07:28 -0700 From: "Hartnett, Travis" Subject: G3 Soundscapes guest soloist speaks During the reader-posted reviews of the G3 shows, some people commented on the sporadic presence of another guitarist (and sometimes a bassist) playing with Robert. Most likely, the guitarist in question was Mike Keneally, who was the second guitarist in the Vai band. From his humourous web-page (http://www.moosenet.com/keneally4.html), here are some of his impressions: "The big news for me personally on this last leg of G3 touring, which hopped around the East Coast of the US for the second half of June, was the opportunity to join Robert Fripp on stage during his opening set on the last five shows of the tour. Robert opened every show of the tour by providing "Soundscapes", which can be simplistically described as a high-tech update of his Frippertronics of the 70's, but when experienced in full flower by a receptive listener can provide ferociously gorgeous and undefinable pleasure, rivalling some of the more transcendent moments of "Civilization Phaze III". For Robert to invite me to improvise over these Soundscapes was an intense privilege and pleasure for me, and my best playing of the tour was definitely during these set s. Stu Hamm played bass quite often during the sets as well. However, the tickets for the shows did not make it clear that Robert begins playing the moment the doors to the venue are opened, so many concert-goers were not privy to these events. When G3 in the US starts up again in September, be advised that if you are interested in hearing Fripp do his thing in its entirety (and the invitation has been extended for me to join him again for the next leg, I'm giddy to report) you should get to the venue as early as possible." Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:38:28 -0800 From: Eb Subject: confession OK, you guys have truly infected me. I surrender. I succumbed to that geekiest of symptoms: the King Crimson dream. I don't own any of the KC box sets (or bootlegs), so I've long been curious about this song "Doctor Diamond" which everyone keeps commenting upon. So last night, I dreamed that I pulled out one of my old King Crimson records (the artwork looked a lot like ITWOPoseidon) and discovered that I DID own a recording of that song after all. It was some sort of early KC best-of compilation, I think -- there was another "previously unreleased" song on it too...something with a lot of O's and N's like "Moony Fananny" or something.... Yikes, wish fulfillment...what a cliche. Eb ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:08:47 -0500 thanks to neil talbott for discussing the 20th century comparisons with crimson, i would agree wholeheartedly. i think my reference to YES and the classics isn't so much of them using actual music from the classics as the style of old classical music, especially from rick wakeman. on TORMATO there's a song with harpsichord that is practically in the exact style of music from 1765. i want to clarify that i like the music of ELP and YES. the whole debate started with someone else comparing CRIMSON negatively to them and i stand by my opinion that crimson pushes the future of new music, rock, classical, and otherwise further than both of these bands. in regard to the person who wondered about 7 over 13 it's probably easier to imagine the 7 as double, namely 14. both parts start at the same time but 13 would start over 1 beat sooner, by the second time it would be 2 beats sooner and so on until finally they would hit again at beat one and start the whole thing all over.to see what i mean keep writing 1 thru 7 on one line and 1 thru 13 below it. it will finally after numerous repeats by both finally line up at "1". finally, nusrat fateh ali khan R.I.P. for those of you who like sylvian/fripp damage you should check out n.f.a.k.'s album with michael brook (the other guitatist in the band), MORNING SONG. very cool. m. brook also has another cool album with an electric mandolin player named u. srinivas called DREAM that has trey gunn on it. both are mixtures of middle eastern and ambient rock. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:26:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Dachelle at aol dot com Subject: ELP/KC, prog lyrics, and a question First off, to Ted White and Ken Lacouture (if I mangled the spelling forgive me!) - Thanks SO much for killing off this whole ELP/KC debate! Reminded me of the words of Peter Sinfield in the Brit mag Record Collector comparing prog fans to fans of football teams..."Everyone likes discovering a band: "Listen, I've found a new one! You haven't heard this one, it's even weirder than your one!"" ELP is ELP, KC is KC, and there's certainly room enough in my CD collection for both without having to agonize over which had the most original music or who can throw knives farther on stage (RF already admitted he'd lose that one! But perhaps they might engage in a spitting contest?...) Just enjoy the music for what it is and stop comparisons that are unfair to all involved. Hasn't Robert already stated in the past that he dislikes comparisons to ELP, Yes, Genesis and other prog bands because they were all bands with different aims and ways of doing things? On to other topics - re: the lyrics of prog rock: As a journalism major, writer, and sometime lyricist, I certainly do my share of working with words, and I've always found the lyrics to be an essential part of listening to music. In particular, I've enjoyed hearing how the lyrics of different bands have evolved throughout the years (except perhaps for Yes, which continues to make sense only about 5 percent of the time). Edward Macan's excellent Rocking the Classics is very interesting on the subject of the cultural context of prog lyrics. Recently, I received a CD called "Solve et Coagula" that a very helpful friend found for me - says it was recorded in Rome Nov. 13, 1973 and has Muir on a few of the tracks. The sound quality is OK but not spectacular. I would be interested in knowing (through private response - thought I'd save you the trouble, Toby!) if anyone else has a copy of this and their opinions on it. Oh, and I really like David Sylvian's voice! 'Nuff said. Yours, Courtney Key http://members.aol.com/dachelle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:53:38 -0700 (PDT) From: michael damian jeter Subject: List Member Needs Place in KC, MO for Halloween No, I do not know about a secret Crimso/Mahavishnu concert, but I will be in Kansas City MO for Halloween weekend, leaving the following Monday. Can a list member stand a house guest for this time? contact me at lordabay at earthlink dot net. thanks Michael Damian Jeter Department of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY Purpleheart Chapman Stick, #1139 Whatever you do, a teacher works harder than you do -- George Clinton, Central Park, NY, July 4, 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:44:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Stok Subject: Giles / Muir / Cunningham In ET 411 & 412 there was mention of a Giles, Muir and Cunningham work... The CD is a 1995 release called Ghost Dance on Piano records (Piano 502) which was originally recorded in 1983. I must say that I've only listened to it a couple of times, but it's interesting... I'll have to dust off the walkman for the commute tomorrow. It's only since I married a philosopher that the name Jaques Derrida on the sleeve - gas anyone seen the film Ghost Dance? If you search for it by title at http://www.cdnow.com you'll get to a (brief) review from Q Mike -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | PGP fingerprint FE 56 4D 7D 42 1A 4A 9C http://www.tiac.net/users/stok/ | 65 F3 3F 1D 27 22 B7 41 stok at psa dot pencom dot com | Pencom Systems Administration (work) ------------------------------ From: "dumela" Subject: Re: liking/playing with Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:12:44 -0400 >From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) >next, doesn't it seem obvious that robert fripp >likes david sylvian's voice. everything i've >read says they greatly like other to the point >that fripp considered sylvian for a new crimson >until he realized that a singer wouldn't have >much to do during crimson's long instrumentals. >why would he work with someone so much if >he didn't like him. Your logic makes sense meta but Fripp has played with people whose playing he had some harsh words to place upon. In the early 80s he wrote lengthy lists of all the things wrong with the drumming of Bill Bruford (this was a thread hundreds of ets ago and hopefully does not need revisiting). I haven't seen any quotes or writing by Fripp stating what he thinks/thought of Sylvian. If you or others (or our fearless team leader) have such please share them. ok time 4 barBq tempe, tj ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:01:24 -0400 From: James Bailey Organization: Southam Inc. Subject: Misc. responses part two >I have a Formula 4 tone arm (uni-pivot, >viscous-damped) just to better track warped lps. It's mounted on an >Ariston turntable. >I've gone on long enough, here. Let's not yearn for the turntable rumble >of yore, just because we grew up with it. I listened to my first records >on a windup Victrola, played with fiber needles that wore out after one >(3-minute) play. I don't want to go back to that. *------------------------------ Scary!!! Not because of what it says, but because I could have written the same thing! Not only do I also run a Formula 4 on an Ariston (RD11s Ted?) - which I acquired courtesy of a friend who found it(!), and which cost me $400+ to get fixed up right (ouch), but I also started listening on an old Victrola, or some such equivalent, growing up in England (anyone out there from Stanford-le-Hope?). I've many cherished memories of trying to figure out how the sound came out - it had a horn built in as part of the cabinet - very confusing for a 5-year-old, while listening to Stanley Holloway, Barber of Seville excerpts, and something called "Eat it With Your Fingers Like the Big Pots Do" (any personally mailed info on that one would be greatly appreciated). Alas, we left there in '62 and couldn't take it with us. I'm quite convinced that kind of beginning shaped my subsequent listening habits. Now for something a bit more relevant: Steve Smith wrote in #405: >And the Tony Levin in question is not our own Papa >Bear, but a somewhat younger British free jazz percussionist. Considering the fact that this particular Mr. Levin was playing drums with Tubby Hayes in 1967 ("Music Outside", Ian Carr), I doubt that he would be much younger, if at all. Also in #405, Barry Hecht wrote: >I feel the void or emptiness that you are referring to with the band >"HAPPY FAMILY" at times. For those who consider KC to have a jazz side ;-), and especially to Bruford fans, I would recommend these folks. I only heard them once, on the radio ("Brave New Waves" on CBC) and didn't get label info, so have yet to find their stuff. Barry, could you post the details on them? Thanks. In #407, Boo (aka Mark Newstrom) writes: >2) In addition to any possible future releases of the > Muir and/or Burrell eras, an interesting thing to > hear would be the entire 1974 Toronto concert, > complete with blasts/counterblasts. From the tidbits > on Great Deceiver, it sounds like quite the time! > Which leads to my really meaningless questions (with > my luck, these are already answered in the FAQ)... Take it from someone who was there: It was!! >3) A.At the end of the "Clueless and Slightly Slack" > improv, one of the band members (Bruford?) is heard > to shout "It's not done...!" What's the whole > quote? And who is actually doing the shouting? I tried listening to this a number of times, but couldn't hear that quote. I believe what you are referring to is an audience comment. The audient in question (the now unjustly famous "insensitive crint"* mentioned in TGD booklet) was a drunken lout who nearly didn't get in. *To give as good a description as memory will allow, the aforementioned lout was in line not far behind me, waiting to go in, all the while being very obnoxious. The person on security for that particular door was refusing to let him in, but he managed it anyway, and continued his verbal barrage whenever it was quiet enough. At one point, as Robert was leaving the stage for a moment (reason unknown) while the rest of the band continued, this paragon of wit yells out: "Hey Fripp, where are you going? to the bathroom?". At the end of the piece (I don't recall which one it was), the Fripp he was questioning consulted with the drummer for a moment, then approached the microphone. He said something like: "I have talked with our drummer Mr. William Bruford, and asked him if he thought I should make a comment. He said I shouldn't, but I feel I must. Sir, whoever you are, you are an insensitive crint.^" ^Personally, I thought the word he used was "crit", as in "critter", but will defer to the spelling in TGD, as I'm sure Robert knew what he said better than me. Thank you for your patience with this overly log post. Stay tuned for part three. Jim Bailey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 21:22:25 -0400 From: simon beauchemin Subject: Re: cheapo frippertronics hi eters, I just have something to add (or to change) to claire shindler's post, which i liked very much by the way. I've been playing with a guitar synth and sequencer enough to know that the newer soundscapes might not actually be sampled loops but short performances replayed by a sequencer. It is very easy since the MIDI signal from the guitar synth include everything but the sound itself (note number, attack, delay, bend and so on). That mean you can change the sound and the performance will still be playing, but triggering the newly selected sound or wave. Since a digital wave can be modified, you can choose not to have attack and to have a fade in coming up, a second after you played the note. So no need for a volume pedal. Sorry to whom who already know this, and sorry to those I confused :) ------------------------------ From: "Steve Ball (RhoTech)" Subject: New Gauchos Web Site Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 20:02:14 -0700 Greetings ET Readers, Los Gauchos have a new web site which you might find of interest with some short audio clips from our new CD "Little Beast" as well as some screen shots from the video for "Voices of Ancient Children" which is included on the enhanced audio CD. http://www.gauchos.com Best wishes, Steve Ball ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 22:01:50 -0700 From: erik simpson Subject: obscure fripperies >Scott Gold mentions seeing "an album by Michael Giles, Jamie Muir, and a >guy named David Cunningham." I'd like to know the title of the album, >which I don't recognize from that description. And I could add that >Cunningham was the main force behind the Flying Lizards, who had a hit with >"Money" almost twenty years ago. I seem to recall an obscure recording of >his to which Fripp contributed. I don't have the new one, but i did find in my archives "The Fourth Wall" by the Flying Lizards which featured RF on 2 tracks. Also in my archives, i found something i had completely forgotten about, Walter Steding's 45 of "Hound Dog" with guess-who going totally apesh*t on the guitar. Produced by Chris Stein I believe, from Fripp's Blondie period (circa '79). Surprised the hell out of me. Bye; erik reid simpson eriks at on-ramp dot ior dot com http://www.ior.com/~eriks ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 02:31:09 -0500 Subject: whoops! my brain burped, nusrat fateh ali khan's album with michael brook is NIGHT SONG not "morning song". all should check out other m.brook albums, especially cobalt blue and live at the aquarium. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan dot Maguire at mercer dot ie Subject: Polyrhythm >>Frame by Frame, which has Belew in 7 and Fripp in 13, >Are you sure about this? If this is the case, can you explain a >little >more about the 7-13 overlay? This is correct, strictly speaking, but a little misleading - where Belew plays in 7/4 (14/8) Fripp plays in 13/8 so its actually a 13-14 overlay. They are both playing an arpeggio of F#msus4, but Fripps part skips the last note so it progressivley starts 1 beat earlier each time. >I've never heard this before, but would definitely like to be able to. >Do the 7 and 13 patterns begin at the same Subject: Giles / Muir / Cunningham (fwd) Aaargh! I am commuting between Sun and PC keyboards and my fingers are totally knotted. The last sentence in the second paragraph should read: It's only since I married a philosopher that the name Jaques Derrida on the sleeve means anything to me, I wonder what his influence was - has anyone seen the film Ghost Dance? but it seems I was over enthusiastic with my excision of some possibly controversial opinions about French contributions to art in the recent past! Of course, now that the search engine's back on line they could have searched the archives... Mike -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | PGP fingerprint FE 56 4D 7D 42 1A 4A 9C http://www.tiac.net/users/stok/ | 65 F3 3F 1D 27 22 B7 41 stok at psa dot pencom dot com | Pencom Systems Administration (work) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 19:44:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Stok To: Toby Howard Cc: twhite at logotel dot com, meconlen at IntNet dot net Subject: Giles / Muir / Cunningham In ET 411 & 412 there was mention of a Giles, Muir and Cunningham work... The CD is a 1995 release called Ghost Dance on Piano records (Piano 502) which was originally recorded in 1983. I must say that I've only listened to it a couple of times, but it's interesting... I'll have to dust off the walkman for the commute tomorrow. It's only since I married a philosopher that the name Jaques Derrida on the sleeve - gas anyone seen the film Ghost Dance? If you search for it by title at http://www.cdnow.com you'll get to a (brief) review from Q Mike -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | PGP fingerprint FE 56 4D 7D 42 1A 4A 9C http://www.tiac.net/users/stok/ | 65 F3 3F 1D 27 22 B7 41 stok at psa dot pencom dot com | Pencom Systems Administration (work) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 10:27:47 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Bootlegs; Sun Ra Neal Corkindale Said...... >Anyone who thinks that the artist (i.e. Fripp) is 100% right and the >bootlegger is 100% wrong needs to read Clinton Heylin's interesting history >of bootlegging, called "The Great White Wonders". In a sense, I agree. No, I don't think I agree with most of the motivations for bootlegging, or its profits, or even its methods, but nevertheless I think it may have some place somewhere. For instance, the great Indian Classical singer Pandit Pran Nath used to allow no recording of his concerts, feeling that the moment should not be grasped, and was in a way too "sacred" to try to be captured. Later in life, however, he began to feel a little differently. And thank God for the bootleggers (though unlike KCs bootleggers probably never intended to make money with it), becuase he didn't end up recording that much at all. We would never have any musical record of this man's artistic concept were it not for bootlegging. Likewise with fripp, kind of. With a few exceptions, I have always felt Fripp's best work was not in the studio (yes I know what I'm saying). I remember a bootleg I borrowed once called "Indisciple", where through Fripp's solo on the Sheltering Sky you can hear God peak down for a moment. Although I know it's not the same thing as "being there", I still find the (mediocre) recording of this moment very important. And how many bootlegs were used for "Epitaph"? So what's the answer? Again I say at concerts DGM (or whoever) should hand out fliers that say "a copy of the sound board DAT tapes of this concert will be made available for a nominal fee.......". That would stop it in its tracks. As for Ted White's comments on Sun Ra, I'd like to point out that despite his "opportunism", he is highly regarded by some Jazz musicians. I rememnber John Gilmore being interviewed, and he said that after playing with Sonny for something like a year or two, he finally "heard the interval" (!), which was when he realized that Sun Ras music was very advanced. Gilmore has then played with Sun Ra for something like 25 years, until Sun Ra died a few years back. And as for KC and Bartok, there is a line in the tune ITCotCK that is ripped right out of Bartok's 4th quartet. Oh yeah, I did read 'Sorceress of Qar' also, and kept looking for the sequels to no avail. No one told me before he didn't write any more of them! -Emory ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Frippertronics at the Ethical Society Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:30:15 -0400 Dougotte in 412 offers his memories of Robert Fripp at the Washington Ethical Society in 1979 (late spring or early summer). Very evocative. I too was there, sitting virtually at Robert's feet. It was his second concert at the Ethical Society that weekend, and his second of three Frippertronics performances in the DC area. The first had been Saturday evening. Late Sunday morning I had a scheduled interview with Mr. Fripp at his Georgetown hotel. I was then writing a column for the monthly Unicorn Times, and UT editor Richard Harrington (now with the Post) set up the interview. I arrived to find the scheduled interview preceding mine was running late; I sat in the background while the interviewer asked essentially ignorant questions, which Robert patiently answered. After he left, I pulled out my books and established myself as "THAT Ted White" with a Robert Fripp who had previously known only that he was to be interviewed by the author of a mixed review of EXPOSURE in UT. It was, as I said, a very enjoyable interview - really more of a conversation - and it established a relationship between us that persisted through the day (and beyond, actually). Saturday night Jim Altman (a brilliant teenaged guitarist/synthesizer-player whose band I produced in concert and recorded for New Decade) sat literally at Robert's feet for the concert. Sunday I sat in a (folding) chair in the first row, directly in front of Mr. Fripp, maybe three feet away, and from time to time he addressed remarks to me. It was an informal setting, the more so because he did not set up on the stage, but down on the floor in front of it, virtually in the audience. Since the audience sat on movable chairs, some regrouping occurred, as people pulled in closer. There wasn't a really large audience (100?) since the object of that tour was small, intimate, somewhat interactive audiences. I found I knew or recognized many in the audience: local musicians and friends of musicians in the DC progressive scene - people like Altman and his band. He talked with the audience, made us feel like collaborators, and took occasional suggestions. (One, which he tried, was to reverse the reels on his Revoxes, so that the recorded Frippertronics played backwards, over which he then soloed. I haven't heard of this being done elsewhere on that tour.) After the concert, Mr. Fripp packed up and moved to a record store (the Penguin Feather) in Baily's Crossroads in northern Virginia. There, for a standing audience made up of many of the same people, he played his third concert, and autographed copies of EXPOSURE (I got one). Throughout, Mr. Fripp earned my respect and admiration, as a musician, as an artist, and as a human being. He met his fans as an equal (no condescending, no patronizing), answered their questions appropriately (discussing technique with other guitarists - this was before he set up classes in West Virginia) and with good humor. He was approachable. I was very favorably impressed, if unsurprised. It was a great weekend for music. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ From: "John Stevens" Subject: MUIR-ERA KC. TINGLES. Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:37:57 +0100 With the impending release of The Nightwatch the 72-74 KC manifestation will have been extensively documented on live albums; with one exception: recordings containing the exuberant and inventive Jamie Muir. On an 'unofficial' brace of CDs (recorded in Oxford Nov.72 & Portsmouth Dec.72) if you can bear to listen through the atrociously fuzzy sound it is obvious some magic music is happening - especially on the long improv. pieces - like nothing else released by the band. Let us hope that at some point decent masters may emerege on which RF/DS can work their "necromancy". This music is too good to be lost. Does anyone know the 'actual' circumstances under which JM exited the band? There appear to be several conflicting stories! Apart from the obvious tingles already dicussed in recent ET's here are my TEN TINGLES: 1 The Moving Force - esp. the viola. 2 Groon - the final guitar squeals/feedback 3 Breathless - the middle section 4 Water Music II 5 Trio 6 Cirkus - Into riff 7 Prince Rupert's Lament 8 Nightwatch = esp. intro and guitar solo 9 An Index Of Metals - a truely spooky piece 10 The New World John Stevens ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:53:10 -0400 (EDT) From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com Subject: MARS, the bringer of war I stopped by my old school today and what should I find in the music departments collection but "Gustov Holst - The Planets" on CD. So I stuck it in the CD player and spent an hour listening. It was REALLY good. Mars was thickly arraigned, dynamic, and evil! It was more up to the speed of The Devil's Triangle, not they awesomely slow and heavy Mars on Epitaph. I was also surprised to hear many of the same themes in both the London Symphony and King Crimson versions, flat fives and all! A really exciting piece of music, indeed. I also especially liked "Neptune, the mystic." It was very dark and mysterious. At one point a six-piece, female choir enters singing without words. They sounded, yes, like Belew's clouds at the beginning of THRAK! Really great music. -Colin WrongWayCM at aol dot com http://members.tripod.com/~c1jdk/wrong.htm ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Free Jazz & Freeform Freakouts Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:55:40 -0400 I'm indebted to Ken Rosser for his detailed response on this subject, which takes it further than we'd been before. But I think we need to clarify our definitions. "Improvisation" is not synonymous with "free jazz" or "free improvisation," for that matter. Collective, or group improvisation, is as old as jazz, and was - within an accepted framework - the backbone of early jazz. In the 30's bands like Count Basie's were known for "head arrangements" (not written down, not "arranged" by one person) which were essentially spontaneously improvised pieces which became standard band fare through repetition. (Most head arrangements consisted of the band riffing behind a soloist, but the riffing was collectively improvised at least the first time out.) Solo artists, like piano players (Tatum springs immediately to mind) improvised extensively, especially in after-hours settings. In all of this improvisation there were commonly understood ground rules which provided structure and vocabulary; improvisations were rarely startling departures. (And I suppose I should mention that improvisation was provided for and expected in many 18th and 19th century classical works: often bravura embellishments, sometimes brief sections to be added to according to mood.) In this context Tristano's 1949 recordings, cited by Ken, are of both historical and musical importance, but I'm not sure they prefigure later "free jazz." They certainly don't SOUND like free jazz. Rather, I think they prefigure a whole school of "experimental jazz" which flourished in the early 50's, and included a number of groups in which vibraphonist Teddy Charles was a part - all on Prestige originally, some as 10" lps. (I regard these as among the most interesting jazz ever recorded, but that may be my bias: I discovered them as a teenager.) Ornette Coleman had an enormous impact on jazz in 1957-59 (his first two albums on Contemporary and those which followed on Atlantic). New York was abuzz, and people - both critics and musicians - were chosing sides (pro or con). It was like the advent of Bop all over again: often a generational thing. (Louie Armstrong dismissed Bop as "Chinese music;" Ornette was accused of being unable to play his instrument.) I got caught up this when my first piece in the revamped METRONOME (June, 1960, I think) which was about Ornette, was attacked by the late Martin Williams in JAZZ REVIEW because he resented my intrusion into what had until then been the private conclave of Nat Hentoff and himself (but Nat didn't mind; later Martin and I became friends). (Ornette himself pronounced -- in print -- that mine was the most perceptive piece published about him, which annoyed Williams even more.) Ornette not only believed in very free improvisation, he discarded many of the harmonic, melodic and rhythmic ideas which had underpinned jazz until then. His double-quartet FREE JAZZ was not only a logical outgrowth of this, it was perhaps its ultimate expression. As Ken notes, however, it was "hardly a free-form jazz freakout, as it did have a pre-determined form," albeit a very loose one. But one thing it did - along with the rest of Ornette's work of the time - was to open doors. It made listeners aware of new musical possibilities (although many rejected them), but, more importantly, it made other musicians aware of them. People like Archie Shepp (who began with Cecil Taylor within months of picking up a tenor sax), the Art Ensemble of Chicago, and many more. Among them, Sun Ra. I'm listening on headphones right now to his JAZZ IN SILHOUETTE. I have the Evidence CD now, but I first heard this album on the Saturn label - Ra's own - and my copy has a silk-screened cover (different from and better than the one Evidence reprinted) and hectographed inserted notes, with hand-coloring in crayon (probably by Ra). It was recorded in 1958. Like his two Transition albums, it is from before his "Space" period. At that time Ra was the leader of a small big band (nine or ten musicians) and his obvious influences were Ellington and Mingus. I liked that band a lot, and sought out its recordings in obscure places (I think Ra placed his Saturn label albums in stores by consignment himself; later they were available only at his concerts). One day, in NYC's Dayton Records (home to jazz), I found more than a dozen Sun Ra Saturn albums, and I was amazed. I couldn't afford all (or even most) of them, but I picked out a couple at random. I was very disappointed when I played them: they had only one or two tracks per side, and were formless and unarranged. They were my first taste of the post-Ornette Ra, recorded after his move to NYC (circa 1959), and after his exposure to Ornette, who had come to NYC - with more fanfare - at about the same time. I have all the Evidence Sun Ra CDs, as well as many of Ra's lps, on Saturn, Impulse, etc. After listening to them extensively I remain convinced that while Ra's mysticism was genuine, had he never heard Ornette Coleman he would never have followed the "free jazz" route. It was easier - no scores to be written - and lent itself to the kind of theatrical shows he wanted to put on. (Ah, memories of that big band crammed into the tiny bandstand at Sluggs, in NYC, where they played for years on Monday nights!) Thus, my calling him "an opportunist." The sad fact is that when you eliminate all (or too many) rules, it becomes entirely too easy for a musician who is inclined to, to bullshit (musically speaking). And this happened a lot in the 60's and 70's - at a cost, at the time, to the audience for jazz, which deserted it in droves. Rock's "freeform freakouts" were another story. Most of them impressed me as musicians collectively "going crazy" and making a lot of arythmic, amusical noise, in order to create an interlude of chaos between more structured moments. And let us not forget the drugs being consumed by such musicians and/or their audience, some of which may have enhanced the experience. Among the influences Ken believes acted upon Coltrane, the name of Eric Dolphy should be added. The two played together in a group Coltrane led at the Village Vanguard (where I saw them while Herbie Mann sat at a nearby table and talked loudly throughout their set, to my considerable annoyance), and, as Ken notes, it was Dolphy who arranged Coltrane's AFRICA BRASS. Personally, I was not as keen on tenor players then as I was alto players. I preferred the alto, from Johnny Hodges through Charlie Parker, and it was on alto that Ornette made history (although he later took up tenor, and a trumpet with a reed mouthpiece). Eric Dolphy and John Handy (both of whom played alto with Mingus) were friends of mine in the early sixties, and mine is the only recorded interview with Dolphy extant (he died in 1964) - I still hear bits of it on the radio from time to time, and wince each time I hear myself asking those jejune questions.... It's hard to realize that I am reminiscing about stuff that happened forty years or so ago; I guess I have achieved old-coot-ness.... --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:57:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Goodcraker at aol dot com Subject: whats "alternative" in Chicago Having been a KC and Fripp follower and fan for 15 years, but a computer owner for 15 weeks, I came upon the web site fairly recently. Since my late discovery, Ive been reading and gobbling up any and all newsletters and postings I can locate. Just wanted to add one or two things to your newsletter.Writing from the windy city, which to my knowledge has always been a town with big support for KC, Fripp, and Belew, there seems to be a lack of not only airplay of ANYTHING Fripp or connected to KC(what else is new) but more alarming is the influx of "alternative" radio stations. These stations often repeatedly play bands that are as alternative as Bush, REM, and Meredith Brooks. And then lo and behold , one day I hear....you guessed it "Heartbeat" by some band from England. The song seemed to confuse the hipper-than-any-15-year-old DJ..who wondered aloud whatever happened to King Crimson. One hit wonders he guessed. This is what alternative radio in Chicago has become. I sighed to myself and thought...Oh well, sometimes you can be alternative 15 years too late. And then a nice smile ran accross my face. Mr Fripp, dont ever become popular. Please dont ever have a hit. Your still a hidden treasure in some parts of the world....ps ..add Roberts solo on The Roches "Hammond Song"...Terry Murphy/Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:21:31 -0800 From: Clive Appleby Subject: Essential Frippery The first stuff from Fripp that I heard was live(USA) from the 70's Heavier Crimson and studio(3ofaPerf.Pair) from the 80's Modern Crimson. If it is Fripp's guitar you wish to hear I'd purchase: FRIPP'S HEAVY SEARING GUITAR (in order of purchase) - USA the live album released in 1975 - RED the final album of the 70's Crimson released in 1974 - Lark's Tougues in Aspic the debut album of the 70's Crimson released in 1973 - Starless and Bible Black the middle album of the 70's Crimson released in 1974 FRIPP & BELEW'S SEARING GUITARS (in order of purchase) - Discipline the debut album of the 80's Crimson released in 1981 - Three of a Perfect Pair the final album of the 80's Crimson released in 1984 - Beat the middle album of the 80's Crimson released in 1982 CRIMSON BOX SETS - The Great Deceiver collection of 70's LIVE Crimson WOW an organic band! CRIMSON BOOT -LEGS - Live in Montreal 1984 Fripp and Belew with Levin and Bruford - Live in Amsterdam at the Concertgebouw 1973 very rare 70's Crimson w/Jaimie Muir CRIMSON VIDEOS - Frejus the noise Live in France 1982 - Live in Japan 1984 NEW CRIMSON (in order of purchase) - THRACK Crimson's 90's debut studio album - Live in Argentina the Kick-off shows to their 90's debut THRACK tour ALSO OF INTEREST (Fripp's 70's sound is back for this Sylvian Fripp project) - The First Day Fripp and Sylvian with Trey Gunn on Warr Guitar - Damage the Live Tour of The First Day with Pat Mastelotto on Drums My attempt to suggest a couple of albums has led me to compile this creme de la creme of Crimson Sounds that definately will make it simpler for you to amass your very own bevy of Fripp recordings (no doubt the most prevailing artist in my collection) I hope this list will serve you well as it has been a great journey of discovery for me. Do send me a note to let me know what you think of these selections. And as you collect them your initial impressions. I am an avid listener of Mr Fripp and look forward to sharing your insights. Have a Frippy Trip man, spark up b4 listening to USA (unbridled psychotic guitars) Clive ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:33:29 -0500 (CDT) From: Dixie Gene Ross Subject: voices...I can hear voices Crims, After several listenings I have deciphered the voices in Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part One! It is indeed a conversation between Eva Braun and Adolf Hitler. Eva is jumping on poor Adolf's case for playing some record: Eva: " I've been shopping all day. My feet hurt. This music is giving me a headache. Could you play something with a little more schmaltz? And now it gets louder! Turn it down! This is awful! Turn this (s%@#t) off!" Adolf: "Don't be silly. This is better than Wagner, I know. Oh, here comes the part that gives me the tingle. I need to trim my nose hairs, Eva could you hand me my clippers? They're over there next to that copy of Mein Kampf. No, Eva put down that lamp! Don't EVEN go near the phonograph player!" [Then after the crash the S.S. come into the room. Too many voices to decipher here but I can make out two voices whispering.] voice one: " Hans, help me pick up this mess." voice two: " Man! Carl, Eva's got balls!" Hope this helps ;-) Dick Ross ------------------------------ From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: KC Lyrics Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:49:04 PDT Dear ET, In #411 and #412, Andy McClelland and Ted White discuss the matter of KC's lyrics and lyricists. I don't want to get on Andy's case about poets and lyrics--but yes, Shakespeare did indeed write song lyrics, notably the Clown's song at the end of Twelth Night and Ariel's "Full fathom five/Thy father lies" song from The Tempest (Pete Seeger recorded a version of this one, as I recall). My point is that poetry and lyrics aren't mutually esclusive. By definition, a lyric is meant to be sung. . .presumably to the accompaniment of a lyre! Modern poets like e.e. cummings and W.C. Williams wrote poetry that is meant to be read, not sung. What we have here is a shift from an oral/aural tradition to a literary tradition, paralleling the rise of literacy. A quick digression. I've taught poetry in college level literature classes since 1980, and by and large students have decided in advance that they can't abide the stuff; they complain that the words are strange, hard to understand, the author's meaning is unclear, etc. Yet they know the lyrics to Garth Brooks and Metallica songs. One thing that I've tried to point out is that even some literary poetry is based on an oral tradition. Let me tell you, it really opens students' eyes (and minds, I hope) when I bring my guitar to class and demonstrate that Emily Dickinson wrote in ballad meter. Many of her poems like "Because I could not stop for death" or "I heard a fly buzz when I died" can actually be sung to well-known melodies like "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" or "The Yellow Rose of Texas." The quality of my performance notwithstanding, the class suddenly hears how poetic meter operates. It doesn't hurt that the results are intentionally comic, too. My performance of "Because I could not stop..." to the tune of the theme from "Gilligan's Island" really brought down the house! But the lyrics fit the music to an astounding degree. The upshot is, with performance suddenly poetry becomes much less forbidding and esoteric. (It also makes the teacher more human and accessible, too!) Now to KC's lyrics. I recall Peter Sinfield being taken to task for the "artiness" of some of his lyrics. At the time the albums originally came out, Stereo Review objected to lyrics from "Lizard" and "Islands" (they hated "grass in your hair/stretched like a lion in the sun" and "Time's grey hand won't catch me/while the stars shine down"). Well, Sinfield's lyrics may not always read as well as the critics would like, but they "sing" pretty well. They do linger on in the mind. They don't sound like anyone else's lyrics. And they're definitely several notches above the "come on baby/don't say maybe" school of puerile rock lyrics. Richard Palmer-James's lyrics are pretty good too, both on the ear and on the page. Adrian admits that he write pop songs. Back in 1982, I had the opportunity to meet him and ask him about "Elephant Talk." He replied that he came up with the lyrics by leafing through the dictionary and picking out synonyms for "talk" e.g., "arguments, agreements, advice." (This song always made me think of the English Department at University of Illinois where I worked on my doctorate, especially the "bicker-bicker, brouhaha, balderdash, ballyhoo!" part, but that's another story.) OK, the words are kind of silly. But some of his other lyrics aren't too bad. It's getting late in the afternoon and I'm getting long-winded, so I'll bring this posting to a rapid close. I guess one test of a lyric is how singable it is. It may not look wonderful on a printed page, but that's because it is intended for oral interpretation. What do ET's readers think? Over and out. Best, Doug ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Subject: More Fripp In Concert Date: Thu, 28 Aug 97 15:57:09 -0700 From: Paul Smith

>If Robert Fripp were to strut across a >stage and scream "are you ready to rock!" at a performance, I for one would That would be cool... and maybe to open the show the band could each emerge from a cocoon like contraption; such acts will ensure that the puppet show never gets top billing ;) Anyway, I agree, such acts would not seem correct for Mr. Fripp. Some performers can pull off such stunts and that's great for them (well, maybe not quite that blatant, but you get the idea). -------------Paul Smith------------- Every Culture's Mythology Features The Young Hero Chasing the Pig Sleigh -Crow T. Robot *------------------------------------ ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #413 ********************************