Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #412 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 412 Wednesday, 27 August 1997 Today's Topics: Cherries for Fripp Temperament/intonation and guitar tab Archives ET Web page prolificity Re: Free Jazz answers to all Tingles list Re: Racecar/$/Prolific ELP, Synergy, LoLo Records, Cuneiform Fripp in concert Full-contact competitive enthusiasim Re: Starless IN _S&BB_ cheapo frippertronics at home, more Ted White and the 'Classical' KC Re: Elephant Talk Digest #411 apologies, Flash and Acid Rock No KC: Michael Shrieve Money & The Terror Tingle Expectorant; Crimson music on the telly Night Watch Memories Tingles, History, Comedy and The Captain disgusting KC at HORDE FW: Self Corrections, Etc. Official Unofficial Crimso Archive is back up!! Doctor D/Occult Schmoccult Thanks & LTIA1 Crimson as tv soundtrack composers. Bootlegs Hello! Misc. responses to recent posts (part one of a series) Belew video Artistic copyright Re: Lyrics Response to ET #411 (Andy McClelland) BLACK&WHITE MUST DIE ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:28:19 -0400 From: dougotte Subject: Cherries for Fripp A year or so ago an ETr suggested that we contribute memories of strong KC live experiences. Well, I've been meaning to key this in for a while... Fripp appeared for his Frippertronics non-tour at the Washington Ethical Society on 16th Street NW in Washington, DC. I don't remember the date, but it must have been spring or summer of '79. Some other ETrs have mentioned Bobby's appearance here. My sister, my girlfriend Mary & I went to the Sunday afternoon performance. We had stopped at a farm market & bought some fresh Bing cherries in a small paper bag. The room for the performance was smallish with folding chairs; it resembled a school auditorium. Fripp's gear was set up on the floor in front at chair-level. Many of us wandered up to check it out. I remember many pedals but no details. A roadie person hovered around, eyeing us wanderers suspiciously. Fripp arrived about 10 minutes late & walked from behind us through the audience to the front. He had his guitar case in hand, & apologized for the delay due to waiting for a taxi. He then invited all of us back to chat over coffee & donuts. We three sat like idiots. I'll always regret not saying "hello," being then still a victim (self-imposed) of the rock-star ethos. However, Mary, my girlfriend, wrote "Cherries for Fripp" on the bag & placed it on his stool. When he returned, he picked it up, read it aloud (to our idiotic giggles) & gave it to the roadie. I can imagine them immediately disposing of the suspicious-looking package - but they were really great cherries! He then played about 2 hours of truly wonderful Frippertronics. Perhaps it was because it was a sunny Sunday afternoon, but the mood here (as opposed to other posters' reports of frightening sounds) was relaxed, peaceful, & content. At one point, Fripp looked up & said, "I was going to stop here, but I'm kind of in the mood, so would you mind if I did a little more?" We all enthusiastically said "yes," of course. I have fond memories of this experience, not only for the beautiful music, but the way it made me reinterpret the way I approach & absorb the music of our pop culture. Oh, & I have fond memories of Mary and the bag of cherries too! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:53:58 CDT From: "Brown, Neal Patrick" Subject: Temperament/intonation and guitar tab In 411, Mike Conlen asks what's the difference between a flat 6th (by which I presume he meant diminished) and an augmented fifth is on an instrument which is not "well intonated, like a fretless". Well, that depends on what you mean by "well-intonated." With equal temperament (what evrybody uses in Western music these days), in the major scale, a dim-6th and an aug-5th are enharmonic (different name, same thing). In minor, they will be different. (In the key of a-min, a dim-6th is F-flat, or E, and an aug-5th is an E-sharp, or an F.) However, with just intonation, I would imagine they are different, although in just intonation, the terms fifth and sixth for intervals don't really apply. Just intonation takes a fundamental (the lowest tone) and builds ratios off of it. An octave is 2:1, a fifth is 3:2, etc. There are other tuning systems, but equal temperament is the only one you'll be able to use on any modern, Western instrument. Andy McClelland posts later with some slight confusion as well: "there's only twelve keys..." Well, that depends on who you ask. There are actually 24 major and minor scales, but there are oodles of other scales within the basic equal temperament structure (the advantage of eq. temp. is that you can modulate from key to key to key without having to retune the whole damn instrument). There are numerous pentatonic scales, two hexatonic scales, the 12 chromatic scales, any number of foreign scales with all sorts of bizarre names....the list goes on. Then, you can retune your instrument so it's not in line with standard Western tuning systems and get all sorts of weird things. (Indian ragas use two different tuning systems at the same time: one divides the octave into five tones, and the other divides it into seven, as I understand it.) These *can* all be incorporated into modern rock/jjazz/whatever music. Also, thanks to J. Korein for providing guitar tab for a whole bunch of Crimsoid pieces, but for those of us who aren't guitarists, would it be too much to ask for you to transcribe them? (I have a hard enough time reading standard notation ;) ) One final note: if you don't like ELP shut up. This is the King Crimson newsletter, and if you ignore the butchery of the classics for a moment, they actually did do some really interesting music (i.e. "Tarkus") even though Robert Fripp does not play on any of the other records. Get over it already. Sheesh. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 12:39:30 -0400 (EDT) From: JOHNSONP Subject: ET Web page Request: I read the ET newsletter via the Web. When you list the most recent editions it would be helpful for me (and others?) if you included the date with the edition number. It's easier to remember when you read the last one rather than which number it was. [ Thanks to Dan, this is now done. Thanks for the suggestion. -- Toby ] Comment: I find the recent heavy-handed moderating very beneficial to the quality of ET. Keep up killing off the inane threads. It is interesting to see the reactions of the band members to certain irresponsible postings. I think that both we the fans and the band members can learn from the effects of these seemingly simple e-mails. Since the one e-mail is (almost) instantaneously sent to hundreds of readers and since the time from putting one's ideas into the computer to when one sends it off to cyberspace is extremely small, it is very easy to massively propagate bad information or bad feelings without carefully considering what one is actually saying. We have to recognize our responsibility for what we write and the implications of what we write. The case of the mail order problems is a telling example. Being a customer of Possible Productions and DGM, I was dismayed with the negative reports of readers' recent phone/mail orders. This (mis)information led me to rethink how or if I was going to purchase DGM releases. Multiply this by hundreds of people and one can readily see the impact of irresponsible negative misinformation. In this case, it could have resulted in major financial implications for DGM if not for Mr. Fripp's careful consideration and intervention. One can imagine other scenarios that could arise in similar fashion. It is easy to say things over the internet that one would not normally say in public due to the anonymity of e-mail addresses. We must be careful about personal attacks and bad information. I must say, however, ET is an appropriate forum for opining about albums and concerts (I thought this album was great! or I hated it!). I am considering sending this last paragraph to ET, but would like your opinion. Thanks for the forum. Pat Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:08:35 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: prolificity re: Neal Brown's post replying to Stephen Arthur re Brufords prolific period. In addition to Miles Davis, Frank Zappa was also quite prolific. '78-'79 saw the release of Joe's Garage, Shiek Yerbouti, Lather (finished, anyway...not released) and Shut up n PLay yer Guitar. Two double albums, a quadruple album, and a triple album. I'm sure there are others out there as well. (Interesting to compare with Steely Dan...who spent two years on Gaucho's seven songs) Never knew she dug the heavy stuff, steely dan, Playing rough, back-door man - "Soul Ram", W. Becker/D. Fagen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:18:45 -0400 (EDT) From: KRosser414 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Free Jazz >Eb responds to a couple of my comments. "Free form freakouts" as a concept >comes from rock, not jazz. The early Mothers were known for them, but I >first saw the term used (I think) by the Red Crayola. Ornette Coleman's >FREE JAZZ (with a double quartet including Eric Dolphy) predates that and >is probably the first recorded example of totally free jazz (and maybe fits >the definition of "free form freakout" even if it didn't have that label); On May 16, 1949, Lennie Tristano (piano), Warne Marsh (tenor sax), Lee Konitz (alto sax), Billy Bauer (guitar) and Arnold Fishkin (bass) went into the studio and freely improvised two pieces, later titled "Intuition" and "Digression" and credited to Tristano as composer. Tristano took credit because it was his idea and the musicians devoted followers of his school of playing, but they were indeed complete free improvisations with no form, song, harmony or rhythmic structure pre-determined. Miles Davis, Cecil Taylor and Ornette Coleman have each acknowledged these to be the first recorded examples of free group improvisation, and they predate Ornette's Free Jazz by over ten years (December 21, 1960) Free unaccompanied improv is another story, as I know Django Reinhardt and Sidney Bechet have Tristano beat by a few years, but it's an important distinction that Tristano extended free improv to spontaneous communication within an entire group. As such, "Free Jazz" was hardly a free-form jazz freakout, as it did have a pre-determined form and in fact was recorded with two takes. The album "Free Jazz" was the entire second take - the first take was considerably shorter and more or less considered a 'dry run-through' of the order, but was also recorded and eventually released as "First Take" on an Atlantic record called Twins (long out of print). Both were reissued as part of "Beauty Is a Rare Thing: The Complete Atlantic recordings". >subsequently Sun Ra (an opportunist) got heavily into this sort of >>unstructured "free" music, and of course one of his main players was tenor >saxophonist James Gilmore - an acknowledged influence (in the mid-50's) on >Coltrane. Sun Ra was a shameless showman in the best sense of the word, a real combination of traditional musician (he was a specialist at stride piano), avant garde musician/performance artist and vaudevillian, as well as a real pioneer of artist-owned independent productions. I think "opportunist" is a bit unfair. >But. I think that's about the closest connection between >Coltrane and "jazz free form freakouts." Both "Interstellar Space" (posthumously released duets with Rashid Ali) and "Ascension" (1965) were completely improvised, with Coltrane directing traffic on the latter as they went along. Gilmore was a big influence on Coltrane as he moved toward free improv, but bigger influences were probably Ornette, Archie Shepp and Pharoah Sanders, all of whom he worked closely with for that reason. >(The "African Sessions" albums >were arranged albums; no free jazz there. Wasn't Oliver Nelson the >arranger? I'll have to check my copies.) Eric Dolphy did the brass arrangements on all the "Africa Brass" sessions, and right you are, no free improv there at all, pretty much all extended modal improv. Ken R ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (meta morphis) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:30:52 -0500 Subject: answers to all boy, i must have hit something to get so much response! a couple of short comments first. aspic from what i've read is a kind of jelly or garnish so lark's tongues in aspic to me has always meant a decadent type of food (probably good with a big glass of absinthe) next, doesn't it seem obvious that robert fripp likes david sylvian's voice. everything i've read says they greatly like other to the point that fripp considered sylvian for a new crimson until he realized that a singer wouldn't have much to do during crimson's long instrumentals. why would he work with someone so much if he didn't like him. next, there are 24 keys, 12 majors and 12 relative minors, not including 5 other possible modes for each of the 12 starting notes and that doesn't count wholetone. gypsy modes etc. that said, i agree everything's been done. however some things have been done more than others. why stick to the obvious. obviously there are fans for less commercial music or we wouldn't be writing here. finally, the response to elp vs. crimson answers its own question. in showing me the errors of my ways you freely admit that most of elp's use of 20th century classical are ARRANGEMENTS OF THE ACTUAL MUSIC by the classical composers! other than Mars by holst i think you'd find crimson writes ORIGINAL music. there is the difference. fripp mentions bartok and stravinsky himself as does levin who i recently read is attempting to abandon strav. for the 12 tone world of schoenberg (which should be interesting). being influenced by and arranging are not the same. so anyway, i hope this doesn't have a negative vibe to it. its just that i've lived and breathed in the classical/rock world for most of my life. other people's opinions are of course as valid as mine but should be backed up by valid information. wheeeeeeeee! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:11:55 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Tingles list More tingles--a baker's dozen--before this thread is declared unraveled! :-} In no particular order: 1. The tremelo guitar-cascade at the end of "Sailor's Tale" 2. Procol Harum's "A Salty Dog"--all of it, but especially the rising strings on the final chorus 3. The slow rising guitar solo combined with Bruford's bowed cymbal sounds in the middle of "Starless"--also the final return to the introductory material at the end 4. The fade-out to the Beach Boys' "God Only Knows" [especially good if you can find the bootleg version that *doesn't fade out but continues on with just the layered vocals!] 5. Henry Cowell, "The Banshee" 6. Pink Floyd's "A Saucerful of Secrets" [listen to this one in the dark] 7. The Adagietto from Mahler's 5th Symphony 8. The "ah"s at the end of "Bells of Rhymney" by the Byrds 9. Belew's cascading guitar-synth weirdness in the middle of "Sheltering Sky" 10. Eno's overdubbed out-of-tune pianos and wall-of-mush on "On Some Faraway Beach" 11. Side one of Keith Jarrett's "Koln Concert" 12. Syd Barrett's careening stratospheric slide guitar on "See Emily Play" 13. Visual tingles: the footage of Pete Townshend's guitar playing in _The Kids Are Alright_, Janis Joplin's performance on "Ball and Chain" on _Monterey Pop_, and just about any footage of Jimi Hendrix. How about posting our favorite Fripp solos *not* on Fripp or Crimson records?A few of mine would have to be: 1. Eno, "Baby's On Fire" [but of course!] 2. Eno, "Distributed Being" 3. The Roches, "Losing True" 4. Bowie, "Scary Monsters" 5. Talking Heads, "I Zimbra" And finally, regarding the recent religious, racial, and aesthetic sniping on ET: Please knock it off. You may have your own opinions on such matters but please don't for the moment think that total strangers would be interested in them. If you were to walk through the streets of your town proclaiming in person some of the things that have been posted here in the cloak of digital distance, you might find a lot of people staring at you and crossing the street to avoid you. Just a thought. Khh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:17:18 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: Racecar/$/Prolific >From: Mike Conlen > >Anyone notice the version of Thrak on Vroom sounds like KC had been >listening to Primus before they recorded it? I like it. I think you have the chain of influence backwards there! Speaking of which, have Fripp's views (if any) on Primus ever been quoted? >From: Support Rep 2 > >I have seen at a local compact disc store an album by Michael Giles, Jamie >Muir, and a guy named David Cunningham. Has anyone heard this? FYI: David Cunningham is best known as the former leader of the Flying Lizards, whose brilliantly post-modern cover of "Money" received a lot of alternative airplay about 15 years ago. >From: Neal Brown > >In 410, Stephen Arthur asked if there were any musicians who had a more >prolific period than Bruford's Close To The Edge/LTIA period....uh, Miles >Davis put out four albums in 1955-1956: "Workin;," "Steamin'," "Cookin'," >and "Relaxin'." In '57 Miles put out "Miles Ahead," "Milestones" and "Porgy >and Bess" came out in '58, "Sketches of Spain" and "Kind of Blue" came out >in '59 (the later is one of the most infuential albums of the 20th >century). I recently got the Ornette Coleman box set (Beauty is a Rare Thing) and was astounded to discover that all SIX fully-stuffed discs were recorded within about 22 months. Yeesh! Beat THAT. Of course, it's not really fair to compare jazz and rock musicians' output, since one is so much more based in improvisation. I can't really give so much credit to a non-songwriting drummer for being prolific, either -- I mean, imagine how "prolific" your average session musician is. (Yeah, yeah, I know Bruford gets some shared songwriting credits, but isn't that mostly just a nod to his improvisation abilities?) As for today's music scene, I can't think of anyone more truly prolific than Lou Barlow (Sebadoh, Folk Implosion, Deluxxe Folk Implosion, Lou Barlow & Friends, Sentridoh...). Eb ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 17:01:39 +0100 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Fripp in concert In recent ETs I have noticed that a debate has begun regarding Mr. Fripp's "stage" manner and his song selections. There even seems to be some comparisons being made between Fripp and ELP (ELP being casts as the better "performers", whatever that means). If Robert Fripp were to strut across a stage and scream "are you ready to rock!" at a performance, I for one would die of embarrassment and disillusionment. As for the song selection, if Fripp (or KC) plays what he wants the performance is almost certain to be better than if he walks through old favorites. Robert Fripp is a serious artist. Unfortunately, he does have to make some decisions based on the market (for his own well-being), but he always, from what I have seen, proceeds with as much integrity as possible and we are lucky to have this gifted artist's music. Please don't bother to write to me and tell me how great so-and-so's concert was because he wrestled an alligator (or whatever) and is still a great musician or that you like so-and-so as much or more than Fripp: I don't care. What I do care about is great art and supporting, as much as my limited funds will allow, those who, having the proper amount of talent, persue artistic expression with taste and with depth. You will not find anyone is modern music that fits that bill any better than does Mr. Fripp. P.S. Any chance of a solo tour as the main act, Robert? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:35:36 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Full-contact competitive enthusiasim Ted White writes: >> I want to stay out of ELP vs Crimson stuff; There is room enough in this world >> for both groups - it's >> not an either/or situation. Amen, brother. To which I would like to add the following thought and general reminder: "Music appreciation is *not* a competition sport". Arrogance out, Ken Lacouture ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:15:23 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: Starless IN _S&BB_ >From: Ted White >Subject: Starless Red >Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:55:12 -0400 > > >Effectively, then, both S&BB and RED are cobbled-together albums, and we >can only speculate about what was originally desired. But I think S&BB >would have a much stronger album with "Starless" anchoring it. (But RED >would have been correspondingly weaker without it.) How can you say that, when "Fracture" is such a wonderful closer??? --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 20:42:09 -0400 (EDT) From: claire shindler Subject: cheapo frippertronics at home, more Thanks to Jonathan Korein for his analysis of Fripp's guitar techniques. I've been experimenting with my own no-budget guitar looping ever since I first heard "No Pussyfooting" two years ago, so maybe I can flesh out your Frippertronics analysis a little. First, while an A/B switching system is nice, it's not necessary if you get a sampler pedal instead of a delay. I bought a decent DOD 4-second sampler for about $90 (serious mark-down) and it does the trick. Here's my looping setup: guitar --> DOD wah/volume pedal --> Zoom 9002 processor -> sampler -> amp It's crude but it works. I find that, sonically, I'm about where Fripp was in 1978 (my lack of physical technique notwithstanding). His newer Soundscape work is impossible without a guitar synth and several 16-second samplers (he often gets two or three loops going at once), but even a simple setup like mine gives you a lot of possiblities. Using a volume pedal opens lots of doors. It sounds like he used one to get that "violining" sound. It helps when those low droning notes don't have any picking sound to them. Start with something like this: E B G D------------------5-------------- A -------7------------------------- E -0----------7----------3---------- Use some distortion on each and enough volume to keep them sustaining into each other. The volume pedal can be used to hide the picking sounds. Fripp liked to set up a couple of low notes to repeat, then slowly add ornamentation. I find his favorite tricks include hammering on/pulling off two or three high notes several times, i.e., something like: E 12-14-12-14-12-14-12-14.... B -------------------------- G -------------------------- Then he might play up or down a 5th in the same rhythm. He also liked to slide up to the tonic of whatever key he was in, adding something like this: E --------------------------- B --------------------------- G --------------------------- D --------------------------- A ---5/7--------------------- E --------------------------- You'd use the volume pedal to hide the sound of the first note being picked, then slide up to the seventh fret and hold that note until the first note repeated. Very effective. On a sadder note, I wanted to note the passing of the great Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan last week at the age of 49. Didn't see it mentioned here already. Peter http://haven.tgot.one/sorry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:28:59 +0100 From: Neil Talbott Subject: Ted White and the 'Classical' KC IN ET 411 the venerable Ted White writes >I've >never heard any Bartok or Stravinsky in Crimson - which isn't to say they >haven't influenced or inspired KC; I have no idea. I think that maybe if Ted listened to Larks Tongues pt.II and then followed it with the last section of Stravinsky's Le Sacre where the young virgin dances herself to death, he might see a provocative rhythmic similarity. Also Bartok's 4th String Quartet could have been a rhythmic springboard to KC, and maybe his (Bartok's) 'night music' was an early form of soundscaping. There is also the nature of the high proportion of dissonance in KC music which does not occur so frequently in the jazz or rock I've heard, but certainly occurs in the modernist composers of this century. I like Ted's reference to Ravel, though (I have a soft spot for Ravel's music, particularly the concerto in D - for the left hand). Robert does use Ravelian harmonies and chord progressions, particularly with new standard tuning, and in his new soundscapes - as evidenced at Salisbury Cathedral. I recall particularly one striking soundscape where, after an hour the music surged like the string choirs of Vaughan Williams' 'Tallis Fantasia' ( non-sequiteur here - VW was briefly a pupil of Ravel, Ravel played 'Le Sacre..' in the 2-piano version with Stravinsky). But this lovely music became increasingly fragmented and nightmarish like a symphony by Peter Maxwell Davies, before being swept away by radiophonic bursts... a never to be forgotten musical experience because it seemed to blow open portals to visions of new worlds. Great music seems to have that capacity. Talking of ELP plagiarising the classics, at least they have the decency to acknowledge their sources. The worst case of plagiarising I've ever heard is the film music of James Horner, who shamelessly plunders the early scores of Bartok (The Wooden Prince), Prokofiev and Stravinsky (The Firebird, and, of course, Le Sacre...) and laughs all the way to the bank. Mind you, he's a dab hand at orchestration. I'm an SF fan too, and it's great to have Ted White on board. One reader's comment about the 'tingle factor' in Mahler's 2nd Symphony prompted me to write to him enquiring if he'd heard the 10th, competed posthumously by a scholar from my home town of Leicester, England - Deryck Cooke. Mahler, and his 10th Symphony featured prominently in the Greg Bear Science Fantasy novels 'The Infinity Concerto' and 'The Serpent Mage' which concern a very disturbing 'tingle factor' in music. Read them, you won't be disappointed. Thanks to ET and Toby and all the readers who contribute, and a special thanks to Robert, and all members past and present of KC, without whom... -- Neil Talbott ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #411 >Frame by Frame, which has Belew in 7 and Fripp in 13, and is also used in >parts of the song Discipline and >various other tracks from that period. Are you sure about this? If this is the case, can you explain a little more about the 7-13 overlay? I've never heard this before, but would definitely like to be able to. Do the 7 and 13 patterns begin at the same point? Do they eventually resolve into the same rhythmic cycle? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:03:59 -0400 (EDT) From: EkimDwod at aol dot com Subject: apologies, Flash and Acid Rock First I'd like to apologize to anyone I might have pissed off when I asked about the KC Rush connection. That was not my intention. I did get many positive responses though. On another subject, Does anyone recall the band Flash, what happened to them? Did any of you ever see them? ( I once in Asbury Park NJ 1973). What are Peter Banks and bass player Mike Hough doing if anything? One more thing, anyone remember a magazine called Acid Rock. Came out for just a few issues and featured these bands. King Crimson, Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin and Yes. The year was I think 1978. Once again my apologizes, Mike Dowd EkimDwod at aol dot com ------------------------------ From: "Andy Gower" Subject: No KC: Michael Shrieve Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:52:50 -0700 If anyone on the list has heard any solo albums by ex-Santana drummer Michael Shrieve. I would be interested to hear what you think of them. He seemed to lean towards jazz and I find his drumming very interesting. Santana's Caravanserai (1972) is excellent. Please respond by private mail, Thanks, Andy Gower PS. Keep those re-releases coming Bobby! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:27:40 -0800 From: rtc at sirius dot com (Robert Cambra) Subject: Money & The Terror Tingle In ET #410 Michael Townsend wrote (in part): Fripp was asked what he wanted from his audience and he answered, with great jolly humor, something along the lines of "their money." Everybody had a good laugh, but I always thought he was being honest there. . . . And I have to disagree with his implication. I think in his words and actions it's plain that with Fripp the music comes first and commercial considerations follow. Perhaps because an artist's work can affect deeply and meaningfully on a personal, intimate level, it can be forgotten that the professional artist is __making his or her living as an artist.__ If the work is honest there's no reason to feel the art experience sullied by the introduction of money, freely given. This attitude must be a hold-over from the 60s. There was this hippie idea that bands were total capitalist pigs for charging admission to shows because, man, music is free. Yes, music is free; but the hall isn't free, the electricity isn't free, the staff isn't free,the instruments aren't free, travel isn't free, etc. This is the only reason I can come up with to explain why Fripp gets so much flack for taking his work into the marketplace. It's important to pay. You gotta pay your artists. Unpatronized artists have no retirement plan, there's no 401K, and just imagine what it's like having to negotiate every paycheck from various people and organizations (some not too honest) all the time. It's an ongoing chore so of course there's a lot of tension and humor about money for Fripp or any other full-time professional musician. (Chuck Berry had been screwed so often by promoters that, for a time , when performing in foreign countries, he would hit the stage only if he were paid in full at the up-to-the-minute exchange rate right before going on .) The amazing and numerous euphoric musical moments (what we've been calling "tingles" here recently) Fripp has offered up as a professional musician are not and cannot be the product of financial and marketing plans. Would we all prefer he got a day job and just played at the local pub evenings? And speaking euphoric musical Fripp moments, no one has yet mentioned an experience of terror tingles like my experience with "Exposure" from the album of the same name. Shortly after the album came out I was happily listening to it, alone, on a sunny Tuesday afternoon after school when suddenly I started to panic--total physical, emotional terror. I had to take the record off and pull myself together. It took me a few days to understand the reason for my freak out was those repeating, murderous, blood-curdling screams of Terre Roche rising from the drone of E-X-P-O-S-U-R-E. To this day I have to brace myself to listen to that song. P.S. Trivia--I interrupted reading ET to look up the number of a bookstore in the phone book and my attention was pulled in by some bold type reading: A Speaker for all Reasons--Patricia Fripp 753-6556. Synchronisity strikes again. Best, Robert Cambra San Francisco ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Matekudesy at aol dot com Subject: Expectorant; Crimson music on the telly Greetings Crimsos: First: Mr. Fripp's post astounded me. Granted when I read it I came home stinking of scotch and cigars but I did re-read it the very next day to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. I think it's great that Mr. Fripp reads ET posts (even if it's just selective ones) and the severity of his response underscores his commitment (to us. Yes us) as a musician and generally as a person who's genuinely concerned. I would be remiss, however, if I failed to mention that the dude from Canada who "got screwed" really got a "royal" reaming from Mr. Fripp. Mr. Fripp mentions somewhere in his lengthy post that Canada guy should have availed himself of the facts before posted his ascerbic rant on ET- How was he suppose d to know about such details as larcenous office managers et al?? The guy obviously did a fair amount of due diligence by writing a series of letters to management, emailing, calling, and finally after an exhaustive process, going ahead and getting his box sets from somewhere else. Yes, maybe the guy was way out of line with the tone of his post but I think I would be too if I had a similar experience. Then again I wouldn't have been so masochistic in a clearly documented pointless pursuit- I would have taken the time myself to walk to the nearest record shoppe and making the purchase immediately (which is, btw, exactly what I did when Epitaph first came out). I guess the point I'm trying to make is that having real fans pissed off about Global, etc. and having to read Mr. Fripp wishing to expectorate on the complainant's foot is unsettling to me as I'm sure it is to many other readers of ET. Caustic conversation is all well and good as it promotes vigorous exchange of ideas and concepts but, spitting??!!! I can state for the record that I have personally met Mr. Fripp and found him to be a pleasant man with sound sensibilities. I can also state that I support everything having to do with King Crimson simply because I love the music (All of it). If there was indeed a problem with the mail order people then ok. Shit happens folks. The guy from Canada got burned. Mr. Fripp would like to spit on Canada guy's foot for not having his facts straight. Suggestion: Everyone just relax, smoke a joint and listen to the music- you'll be much better off. Crimso on the telly: Mr. Perdomo in a recent post mentions the MTV cartoon The Maxx. Yes. The music used throughout is unequivocally Mr. Levin on the stick in "Sartori in Tangier" from the Beat album. I too looked for musical credits and King Crimson was painfully absent. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this but it is my understanding that in order for anyone to use any part of a copyrighted work they must obtain the permission or the proper lisensing agreement from the creator or holder of that copyright. Granted, the issue becomes, is the user of that copyrighted work deriving any pecuniary gain from the use therefrom. And in the case of the creators of The Maxx the answer would have to be yes because to assume that they derive no income from their animated cartoon series (which aired on a nationally and Internationally televised channel and has now appeared on the racks at Blockbuster Video for SALE and for rent $$$) would be assinine. I would suggest that Mr. Fripp engage his solicitor with the same enthusiasm and vigor that he showed all of us with Canada guy. ps. Sicerest apologies to "Canada guy". I mean no disrespect, I just didn't have your name handy when I sat down to write my post. Keep Rockin' Aus ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:25:46 +0100 From: Tim Rowe Subject: Night Watch Memories wrenhawk wrote: >>Speaking of tingles:How about the intro on Night Watch...shine, >>shine....? Indeed. Night Watch came out as a 7" single over here. I was but a callow youth at the time and rushed out to buy it as soon as it was in the shops. I remember clearly taking the single round to a prospective girlfriend's place to impress her and insisting she give it a spin immediately! She sat there with a deadpan expression for the duration. SHE DIDN'T LIKE IT!! Needless to say the relationship never even got past the starting post. And what about that passionate solo then? I think that's the part that I'd hope the girl would resonate with :-) Peace, Love & Lightshows, Tim -- "Work like you don't need the money, love like you have never been hurt, and dance as if no one was watching." -- Anon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 16:47:07 +1000 From: David Greene Subject: Tingles, History, Comedy and The Captain I heard KC for the first time in 1969 at Hyde Park. The show was not particularly memorable except for the quantum of sound that oozed from KC. I had never heard such a noise before. That noise, together with the cover, lead me to purchase ITCOTCK. It's been a long strange trip since then. I have kept up to date with the work emanating from King Crimson and associated (and non-associated) Fripperies. I am alone, however, amongst my known contempories in having the stamina to maintain an interest in the (sometimes) obscure and always challenging output from KC and (no not the Sunshine Band) R Fripp. My wife has banned KC and Fripp (except for Intergalactic Boogie etc) from being played in my house. She says that as soon as the interesting parts happen (my words) "it feels like a steel band being tightened around my head). This criticism alone assures me that Fripp's work is still worth bothering with, after all it was always about intensity coupled with peace, hot and cold etc. In fact, the Captain and I crave the electic metal rush that is so characteristic of the best of Fripp. For example, the chromatic (I think) intensity of Starless. Lizard has good piano playing and suberb acoustic guitar, especially the aural representation of the lions throwing up or getting the "floor of their cages" stuck in their throat after eating them. I live in Australia and would love to see Crimson play here. I last saw Fripp play in London at the Virgin shop sometime in the 80's. I enjoyed it and loved the multiplicity of guitars present. I was in the shop some 2 hrs before the show to ensure that I would be there and able to see. I saw Mr Fripp looking at the records in the shop prior to the concert and could have approached him but didn't. I would like to know why all these people want to talk to Mr Fripp, people do not stop me in the record shop for a chat! I have, however, always liked listening to Mr Fripp speaking as I find hime to be very funny indeed. I am sure that his humour is often lost on those people from a non-english (ie American) background. Why should anyone take a man with what used to be a very geometric haircut seriously? All this talk about tingles, what about: The duet in the Pearl Fishers The organ bit in Saint Saens Organ Concerto The "ghost of electricity" in Visions of Johanna The intro to Marvin Gaye's I heard it Through the Grapevine The joy of Somone, Somewhere in Summertime (Simple Minds) The absurdity of Beefheart's Big Eyed Beans from Venus The audio acid of 1983 A Merman I will be The Grateful Dead at Wembley in the 70's especially Phil Lesh's bassline at the end of Casey Jones Jaco Pastorius in Weather Report especially on A Remark you Made Max Ruby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:57:07 -0400 From: mtownsend at earthlink dot net (Michael Townsend) Subject: disgusting KC at HORDE A quick clarification: The reasons I was disgusted with Crimson at the HORDE show were because a) the band appeared to be going through the motions; b) the audience was for the most part disinterested in what they were playing; and c) Fripp's 2 or 3 solos were painfully bad - off-key, uninspired, noisy and not particularly musical. >King Crimson is still King Crimson, whether in the context of the HORDE >tour, headlining their own show, or a public washroom. Perhaps if I hadn't read the rave reviews from the earlier tour here in ET I wouldn't have been so disappointed. If you saw them at HORDE, I doubt you could call their performance "transcendent." >Isn't some KC is better than no KC? Yeah, that's why I went - my one and only opportunity to catch this incarnation live. So now I can say I saw them - but when I compare the performance to what I experienced in Central Park 7/1/74...well, you know. ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: FW: Self Corrections, Etc. Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:07:46 -0400 First I must correct myself: in my post in 411, in comment to Eb, I referred to Sun Ra's long-time tenor sax player as James Gilmore. He is, of course, John Gilmore, as I should have known. I offer this mea culpa in hopes of beating out the sarcastic rejoinders of those who may have caught me in this error. 411 is a thick issue of ET, probably a result of the long post in 408 by Mr. Fripp. A lot of people said things I might have said, even wished I'd said - especially about the post from the Polish chap to which Robert responded - and I want to add my thanks to the Russian who had the spit-merchandising proposal. It was indeed the best possible response of its kind. Chris Trinidad comments on "how the most talented musicians can't stay together." He says "the 'rock aesthetic' is to stick together and grow as a unit," but I wonder about that. I suspect those bands that stay together over the long haul are exceptions, and not the rule. The Beatles stayed together (as their final personnel) for less than ten years. KC has maintained its identity through an all but total turnover (Fripp being the only constant) not once but four times, each version of the band sustained for a maximum of what, three years? For every Rolling Stones (unchanged except by death or resignation) there must be hundreds of bands that flourish for only a few months or a few years. Eric Dixon and I had a private exchange (which probably satisfied neither of us), but I want to comment here on his signature quote, "...I have the heart of a small boy - and I keep it in a jar on my desk" attributed to Stephen King. I don't doubt this is an accurate quote, but King stole it from Robert Bloch, who said "I have the heart of a small boy - I keep it in a jar on my desk" around or before the time King was born. (Bloch wrote "Psycho," among many other books and stories, and he was a delightful person.) Scott Gold mentions seeing "an album by Michael Giles, Jamie Muir, and a guy named David Cunningham." I'd like to know the title of the album, which I don't recognize from that description. And I could add that Cunningham was the main force behind the Flying Lizards, who had a hit with "Money" almost twenty years ago. I seem to recall an obscure recording of his to which Fripp contributed. Bravo! to Ken Lacouture. Neal Brown suggests Miles Davis album production in the 50's exceeds Bruford's in the 70's. Apples and oranges. I suspect I could find quite a few jazz musicians who could match Miles in productivity if I searched for them - especially since those four Prestige albums were one-take, "blowing" sessions for the most part. Andy McClelland thinks "Music that is made to make money is bad." I disagree. The reasons for making music are irrelevant to the quality of the music. This is true throughout the creative arts. Some writers who were known as "hacks" (commercial writers, writers-for-money) turned out to be talented and produced stuff worth reading - John D. MacDonald being an outstanding example. The same is true in music. I suspect a good percentage of the Beatles' hits were written to be hits (to make money), as were many of Leiber & Stoller's. So what? They became hits because they were good and a lot of people liked them. The real point is that commercial success is not a determining factor in the quality of a work, although its quality may indeed be a factor in its commercial success. Andy also think KC, Yes, ELP, et al, had "narorious [notorious?] silly lyricists." I wouldn't describe Sinfield or Palmer-James that way; maybe Belew.... Barry Hecht asks "what classical themes" Grant Colburn was referring to in reference to Yes. My impression is that Yes never borrowed classical THEMES - they used classical STRUCTURE in the composition of their longer works. Or so they claimed at the time. --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ From: "Daniel Kirkdorffer" Organization: SRDS Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:15:07 CST Subject: Official Unofficial Crimso Archive is back up!! For all those of you who like me were going through withdrawel because you couldn't access the ET Official Unofficial Crimso Archive, the good news is its available again. Mike Stok has moved the site to its new home at http://jthome.jthome.com:8008/ and ET Web links have/are being updated accordingly. On behalf of us all, I'd like to thank Mike for his continuing efforts to maintain such a useful archive, as well as making all that disk space available to us. Thanks Mike! Dan --- Daniel Kirkdorffer Sr. Technical Consultant, Zeal Inc. dank at zealinc dot com http://www.zealinc.com/ DanKirkd at aol dot com http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/ **Visual Cafe Tips: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/vcafe.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:13:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Lynch Subject: Doctor D/Occult Schmoccult On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Elephant Talk wrote: > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 08:46:40 -0700 > From: Jason Thornton > Subject: Re: FRIPPERY OCCULT TRICKS GURDJIEFF LONG LETTER (or "How I > > "Lightworker," shmightblurker. Too wimpy for my taste. I prefer, and > advocate that each and every reader of E-Talk become, ShadowSLACKers! To have Slack in light, to have Slack in shadow, it is as the same. This is its import: Even in light it remains hidden. There is more to be said, but not here. > Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 22:43:25 +0300 > From: Selinsky > Organization: AT&T > Subject: Demystifying Doctor Diamond > > I'm sure I am not the only one who can't get the lyrics from "Doctor > Diamond", a song I love to tears. I have tried to the best of my ability to > decript the lyrics, which took some time. As I am an American, some of the > British use of volcabulary and pronunciations may illude me, so I can't > quite get the whole picture. If someone else figured them out, or has the > official Palmer-James lyrics available, kindly share them, if > possible. Lyrics have to exist for this - how else did they copywright it? Great attempt- a few niggles: > I'm the driver of an underground train. > Many who wear the memory, ledges of my name, I hear "bear the ledgers of my name" or some such.. > I'm the driver, of an underground train. > Climb aboard, just climb aboard, > The loss in my life is her gain. I hear "Your loss is my eternal gain". > Get your precious party in, I hear "body". Dave (Not David) Lynch * Eligible Mutant Bachelor Uebergeek at Large SEE the FUTURE at http://www.prysm.net/~cuthulu/dave_lynch/index.htm Brrr-woowoowooowooowoowoo-brrrRRRRRrrrrr (Galaxians 7/83) HAIL BRAK! ------------------------------ From: Support Rep 2 Subject: Thanks & LTIA1 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 97 15:56:00 PDT Thanks to those who replied to my question about Ghost Dance. I haven't bought it yet, but I probably will. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the voices in the background of Larks Tongues Part 1 was a television broadcast of a Shakespeare play (I don't remember which one). The way I heard it was that it was just a random thing thrown into the mix on the spur of the moment. Or I could just be nuts. Scott Gold ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:03:05 -0600 (CST) From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN Subject: Crimson as tv soundtrack composers. The recent discussions of Crimson music used in tv and movie soundtracks got me thinking of what tv series Crimson could have deliberately composed for. The one example I have thought of so far is Space 1999, at least the first season. The surreal and vaguely psychedelic nature of many of the first season episodes would be, IMO, a suitable locale for some of the more abstract kind of creations the 72-74 lineup tended to come up with. I believe the series entered production in late '74, a few months after KC broke up. And for those not familiar with Space 1999 it was a mid 70s British science fiction series based around the premise of the Moon, and the base on it, Alpha, flying around the universe after the explosion of nuclear waste stored on the far side knocked it out of Earth's orbit. No really, I'm not kidding. :-) STANDARD DISCLAIMER tim gueguen ad058 at sfn dot saskatoon dot sk dot ca ------------------------------ From: Neil Corkindale Subject: Bootlegs Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:18:14 +1000 The first King Crimson bootleg I bought was "Un Reve Sans Consequence Speciale" for =A33, in Tibb St. Manchester. That was about 1976. I've since bought that recording (the BBC "In Concert" from the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam, 1973) on CD, call "21st. Century Schizoid Man". Now that it is being officially released, I'll buy it again. This, in a stroke, destroy's many of the arguments artists chose to throw at bootleggers. Had Fripp released it officially, I'd never have bought the bootleg. Also, until KC visit Australia, where I know live, I'll continue to visit Record Fairs, looking for bootlegs! Anyone who thinks that the artist (i.e. Fripp) is 100% right and the bootlegger is 100% wrong needs to read Clinton Heylin's interesting history of bootlegging, called "The Great White Wonders". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 15:58:43 -0700 From: Fabian Salazar Subject: Hello! Congratulations! It's a great thing you guys are doing, I love it! I want to get into Fripp and his guitar work. What album would you say would most definitely display Fripp's abilities at the guitar so I can start my collection? [ Replies by private email to Fabian only please. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:45:52 -0400 From: James Bailey Organization: Southam Inc. Subject: Misc. responses to recent posts (part one of a series) Greetings once again, from a returning subscriber, back at his old haunt after a few months away. You really don't want to know the reasons; besides, they are irrelevant. Much has been said since last I lurked in these parts. It has been quite an ordeal trying to catch up, and that's just going back to the 390's. There are a few items I thought I would like to comment on, but I'll do it in stages as time permits. So, off we go... Here's a couple of things that sort of tie together in an odd way: Apparently, Kevin Holm-Hudson wrote, in ET#349 (I get this from Robert C. Parducci in ET#402): > I don't know if this aspect of KC lore has been previously >discussed, but you can look at some of the aphorisms he left directly on >his vinyl recordings and find out how meticulously planned his career has >been, at least in the early 1980s. --the messages are in the exit grooves. >CDs, alas, do not possess them.) > >From Fripp's first solo album, _Exposure_ (1979): >Side 1--"1981 - is the year of the Fripp." >Side 2--"The aim is freedom of conscience and truth." * Then, From: Ted White in ET#403 >Alessandro Bagno, in 398, refers to the Italian group, Sensations Fix, as >"one of the best and most underrated groups of that era [the 70's]." >Sensations Fix was unique among 70's Italian bands in that it was a >US/Italian group. On "Fragments of Light" by S. F., there is an epigram on the cover, and also on the side one label, which says: "Dear Robert, you'll be glad to know that the Heavenly Music Corporation has branches here also." Hmmm, I wonder who that is addressed to? Stand by for part two... Jim Bailey ------------------------------ From: "Alias" Subject: Belew video Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 22:00:59 -0500 Does ANYBODY know where I can find a video of Adrian Belew's "I am what I am" on video? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:42:07 +1000 (EST) From: j dot keens at rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: Artistic copyright I read Fripp's comments concerning the relationship between artists and record companies with interest. What seems to be the problem is with ownership of artistic works in general, and arguing this from analogies can be confusing and difficult. In the first newsletter he compares the fact that record companies give you an advance on royalties and then owning the product to a building society owning your house once you'd paid off the loan. I am not sure the transactions are the same. The record company says, basically,We will buy your recording from you. Lets say we are going to offer you $10,000 plus royalties, but you haven't recorded the music yet - so we will give you $5000 now so that you can get the recording done. If we didn't you would still have to find the $5000 to do the recording, and then reimburse yourself or another loaning institute where the money came from. The bank says, you want to buy a house for which you need money - we will sell you the money, and you can pay us back over an extended period. providing some interest to cover the cost of the money. A different, analogy closer to the music industry comes to mind: at the moment we are building a house: we have contracted with a variety of artisans to undertake the project. An architect has designed it for us, and we have paid for that design: we would be unhappy if he sold the design to anyone else: are we being unfair? Similarly the builder has been paid part (an advance) for the building - when he has finished (and we pay the rest) we expect to own the building even though he has done the work and paid for some of that work from his own funds. What seems to be the problem in the art world, compounded by Fripp's analogy, is the issue of ownership of product - indeed the commercialisation implicit in the idea of product. The most extreme example of the problem is in the visual arts - once you sell a painting you have little or no rights. There was recently an example here where an Aboriginal artist sold a work for $150 10+ years ago which went at auction for many times that a few months ago - the artist is living in dire poverty but sees nothing of the escalated price. In France, apparently, there is a system where artists receive a percentage of sale prices for a period (which solves some problems but raises others - artists whose works were turned over frequently would make more than one who was collecetd and not sold). In the musical and literature area things are slightly better in that the artist does get some royalties as the owner (ie the record or book company) turnsover units. The companies probably feel they are doing the artists a good turn by using all their power and networks to sell the items. But artists obviously consider that they want closer control of their works - Fripp is obviously one example and I know down here Severed Heads have been trying to regain control of their back catalogue, and I am sure there are numerous others big and small. At the end of all this, I would have to agree with Fripp that the issue of ownership has to be sorted out - but not just seeing record companies as the problem, but our reduction of artistic works to commodities. Solutions are going to be difficult - defining a work of art compared to something more prosaic (a Fripp soundscape compared to an advertising jingle: should they be treated equally? Or an 'art' work compared to graphic arts), treating people equally etc. Independents such as D(GM) have started some of the work for the music industry, and it seems that finally the artist is leaving his/her studio and fighting for their rights. Thanks Jeremy K ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:51:50 -0500 From: future perfect Subject: Re: Lyrics >>-Andy McClelland wrote: >I have been prompted to add my .02 after reading a literary explanation of > Lizard Why don't you get one of those vocal zapper dealies and get rid of the lyrics to something like 'Elephant Talk' or 'Two Hands' or any number of other KC songs and see what you have left: half of a song. I remember reading or seeing an interview with Paul Simon and he said something like neither the music nor the lyrics could stand on their own, because they where created together the were 'married' in a way. Of course, Palmer-James was solely a lyricist, but, as a weilder of >words, I can't believe righting lyrics for rock songs was his ultimate >career goal. Did Shakespeare, ee cummings, WC Williams, or orther >famous poets write lyrics? Of course not. Perhaps they should have. There *are* passages in Shakespeare which were originally set to music. Lots of very early poetry was sung due to the fact it was easier to remember the words if they were set to a melody. True, Shakespeare wrote plays and poems not operas. He was a poet not a musician. But I think a singer/lyricist is a musician and should not be compared with non-musical poets. Why not pick the best lyricists of all time as a separate catagory from great poets? In comparison to Shakespeare and E.E. Cummings few poets or lyricists past or present can stand on their own. Fewer poets especially, because a bad poet doesn't have a good melody or an interesting singing voice to help them out. >The poetic artistry out there makes prog lyrics look like micheal >jackson next to KC music. Interesting. I see the same timeless qualities in KC and Fripp's work as I see in Shakespeare, lyrics or not. >(snip) Because a artist is great in one art form, it doesn't mean he >has a mastery of all. Just had to get that off my chest. Why assume that an artist who writes lyrics considers himself a master? Okay, if you haven't guessed by now, I'm a singer and the only way I can use my instrument is by employing words to carry my song..... Misha -- ********************************************************************* 'Future Perfect' - progressive art music - visit our website at: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082 " Music will enter our sorry world despite all our efforts to keep it out. " -Robert Fripp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:57:25 -0700 (PDT) From: syd at intergate dot bc dot ca (Chris Trinidad) Subject: Response to ET #411 (Andy McClelland) >I have been prompted to add my .02 after reading a literary explanation of >Lizard. After listening to Prog for a while, and I feel that the lyrics add >little if anything to the music. King Crimson (and Yes, ELP, and other >narorious silly lyricists) are musicians, not poets. The ideas that make >them stand out from the pack are musical ideas. Prog lyrics were not "trite" in their time. In fact, it was very much far more literate than most conventional pop tunesmithery. Sure, listening to the lyrics today will fill our head with some good, aged cheddar but it should not be dimissed as having no value to the music. The syllable division of the lyrics provide the rhythm for the lead melody line. Sometimes, even, the lyrics can "inspire the muse" be it the composer or the singer. > Did Shakespeare, ee >cummings, WC Williams, or orther famous poets write lyrics? Of course >not. I don't know about the others, but I'm sorry to say that Shakespeare most certainly DID write lyrics. Shakespeare included songs in his plays, sometimes, to set or contribute to the atmosphere of a scene, or as soliloquies, or to mark a joyous celebration or festivity in the act. Nevertheless, the songs can be read in the context of a play but can also be appreciated in their own right as isolated lyric expressions. (Yep, still have my English Lit high school notes!) In other words, if you read some of Peter Sinfield's lyrics, you would be able to appreciate them for how they are, regardless of its application to the music. At least, I know I can. >Lyrically, it is >great, but the musical ideas are simple and trite. Because a artist is >great in one art form, it doesn't mean he has a mastery of all. Sure.. no one ever said Bob Dylan had the most riveting music.. (or is that voice? I forget..) but his words certainly spoke. Ultimately, I guess it's in the eye, or in this case, ear, of the beholder. Chris Trinidad Richmond, BC, Canada ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 03:32:25 -0700 (PDT) From: michael damian jeter Subject: BLACK&WHITE MUST DIE >5. BLACK VS. WHITE MUST DIE!!! JUST LIKE MALE VS. FEMALE CRIM FANS!!! >It is talk like this which leads to generalizations and people >getting offended. This is the kind of thing which leads to >racism/sexism. STOP!! Hold on. Racism and sexism are a part of our, imo, fallen nature as humans. Not talking about them does nothing but allow them to fester. One can have an itelligent discussion of race, gender, class AND sex and not make generalizations. It takes...Discipline:-) Michael Damian Jeter Department of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY Purpleheart Chapman Stick, #1139 Whatever you do, a teacher works harder than you do -- George Clinton, Central Park, NY, July 4, 1996 ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #412 ********************************