Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #411 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 411 Sunday, 24 August 1997 Today's Topics: Crimson logo Starless Red LTIA spoken words Lark's Tongues Derivation possible answer to mike holst Playback in London Colorado On Sale/Crimson Sound Lore/Bad Manors/More Tingles re: Fripp, black & white Re: Elephant Talk Digest #409 Re: Elephant Talk Digest #409 More KC sountrack rippoffs, More Tingles '72 EDITION of KC Response to ET #409 (Mike Holst) Fripp and Reid, Tony and Doug Re: L. Rob Hubbard, race, & RED Levin/Bozzio/Stevens in Japan -- Tokyo? Re: double standards Warsaw voice Black & White Sigh.... Con man Fripp's post Grant's Rant Prog rock/jazz, Zen Robert's Post and "Rock Gods" Odds N Sods Who has heard this album? Re: The Double Trio Re: greedy old Fripp Fwd: Earthbound - A plea Midi files Productive periods Words and the Unconcious In the Wake of the Master (Crimson music on TV) Fripp and the Golden Mean Stealing songs and buying calendars. Fighting the Man lyrics Fripp Analysis Classics vs Modern RF & Plato's philosophy etc. Tingles, Germans, and Ted White... Analysis of Fripp's Guitar Style Is RF a sneaky bastard ? Most Enjoyable Post of the Summer! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: be82842%binghamton dot edu at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Crimson logo In response to the question of the meaning of the Crimson logo, it is actually the symbol of DISCORDIANISM, the "Five fingered hand of Eris." go figure... Lev Kalman-Blustein be82842 at bingsuns dot cc dot binghamton dot edu ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Starless Red Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 12:55:12 -0400 I was reading Robert's post in 408 when I hit this line: "David Singleton and I have gone back to the original 16-track tapes [from the Concertgebouw concert], which were the basis for half of the 'Starless and Bible Black' album." Suddenly certain unfocussed thoughts came together for me. We know "Starless" - the composition - had been intended for the album, S&BB, but wasn't completed in time. We also know that "We'll Let You Know" and "Trio" are improvs used on that album. There is also an improv titled "Starless and Bible Black," which opened the second side of the lp. When you add up the time for these three pieces, it comes to 18:36, which is roughly half the album. Obviously, if "Starless" (clocking in at 12:18 on RED) had made it onto S&BB, the improv "S&BB" would not have been used. Would IT have ended up on RED? Effectively, then, both S&BB and RED are cobbled-together albums, and we can only speculate about what was originally desired. But I think S&BB would have a much stronger album with "Starless" anchoring it. (But RED would have been correspondingly weaker without it.) Someone remarked on a dislike for "The Great Deceiver" among some women that he'd noticed. This doesn't surprise me. Any lyric that opens with "Health-food faggot" is going to offend some people, and a refrain of "Cigarettes, ice cream, figurines of the Virgin Mary," will probably offend yet more. Oh well; that was probably the last Really Nasty song KC ever did, more's the pity. I definitely look forward to THE NIGHT WATCH's November appearance. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ From: sparker at iphase dot com (Steve Parker) Subject: LTIA spoken words Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:05:21 -0500 (CDT) A couple of recent posts have mused over the content and source of the spoken words subtly mixed into the coda of LTIA pt. I. One contributor had heard it was Hitler. I couldn't let that one pass without comment. I remember reading years ago (Young Person's Guide booklet?) that it is multiple tracks of Bruford reciting passages from whatever book he was reading at the time, making it impossible to single out any one passage. That certainly corresponds to what I hear in my headphones. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 13:25:50 +0100 (BST) From: Harry White Subject: Lark's Tongues Derivation The violin passage in Larks Tongue's Pt 1. is based on "The Lark Ascending" by Vaughan Williams which is in turn derived from the folk tune "A Lark in the Clear Air". This folk tune is normally played on a mandolin in a manner not disimilar to the Sailor's Tale solo or Robert's banjo work on the first Peter Gabriel album. Where the Aspic comes from is anybody's guess. -- Acorn RPC -- Small, Mobile Highly intelligent Computer Techniquest -- Large, Mostly intelligent organisation Harry's Home Email Work Email - Harry at tquest dot org dot uk ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (grant colburn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 16:11:35 -0500 Subject: possible answer to mike holst i think where you are getting your your question of fripp's comment about 12 to 14 years to get a glimpse of freedom is basically a matter of definition. what fripp means by freedom and what you believe freedom to be seem like two different things. for a start you don't mention if you "write" any of the music you drum for. playing drums to someone else's music wouldn't seem like freedom to me, even with originality combined with commercial appeal, where's the freedom? your quote of neil peart is interesting because he himself in recent interviews talked about feeling like he had just begun to understand playing drums from a little old jazz man (the concept of circular drumming) and viewed his past playing as so far from "real" music that in some interviews he wondered if he would ever play again. i think freedom as used by fripp is a much more spiritual concept than what you are interpreting. i would wonder if some of the greatest classical virtuosos ever achieve freedom regardless of the immensity of their technique (mostly due to always playing from someone elses score) i don't remember the exact quote but i think fripp explains in his description of the master in guitar craft " the master speaks with his own voice". that is closer i think to what he means to 'freedom" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:52:33 +0100 From: Orn Orrason Organization: AMUSE ICELAND Subject: Playback in London Hi there I have decided to attend the playback in London. I will even take my wife along (who really never has appreciated fripp/crimson like I). To get there I will have to fly from Iceland which is 2500 km away or 3 hours flight. Can anyone beat this ? Regards Orn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 19:17:25 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: Colorado On Sale/Crimson Sound Lore/Bad Manors/More Tingles Greetings, Colorado Tickets for G3 at Mommoth in Denco for Oct 7 go on sale thru Teleseat in the first part of Sept. Get ready fans and get those phones ringing for futher info. Remember hearing about the low frequency stuff on Larks(ET 406 Craig)Also about the boys experamentation w/ sound observation. This must still be going on , or people wouldn't puke. I happen to not even get remotely aggitated to Great Deciever. However, I do have to confess, that I absolutely can not listen to Scizoid Man. It is the only KC song out of the many that I will take off. Having said that I will now totaly contradict myself and say that I almost enjoy the live at the BBC version on Epitaph. Which is somewhat of a relief. Can't help to notice that some of you posters are arrogant and mean spirited in the extreme. Why such one -upsmanship?I don't care if you take my posts seriously or not. (tho some seem touched by them)Why such constant slamming of everything, everyone and every opinion?! For the record I am not some sort of pollyanna. I make a living, real money, with my metaphysical gifts. Real people, real situations that I bet some of you couldn't even begin to imagine, yet alone put up with.I could be very jaded. However I am constantly working to temper my more obtuse reactions...or I would be running around like Xena The Warrior Princess most of the time. Recomend tempering to anyone that has forgotten that this fan stuff is supposed to be fun. (but can express serious opinions) Speaking of tingles:How about the intro on Night Watch...shine, shine....?Also Treys' Third Star does it every time.It's not quite the orgasmic tingle, but rather a sort of swelling of energy that raises from mid-back up over my head down into my heart...and then wow, tears in my eyes. Right before the vocals come in. A deep emotional tingle. You all know that this is the tingle of light as expressed thru music that we are all feeling, don't you ? Love and Light, and yeah, they are real, Auntie Gail What's So Funny About Peace Love and Understanding? (and real dialog?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:45:22 -0700 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: re: Fripp, black & white >>and Fripp to my knowledge has never worked with anyone black >Guess again (Narada Michael Walden, for one that springs immediately to mind >with little effort) Of all the members of Centipede (or for that matter the guest players on various KC albums), could any of them have been black? Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 21:50:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Conlen Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #409 Isnt there a difference between a Flat 6 and Augmented 5th on an instrument which inst well-intonated (like frettless), or atleast in the way that execlent players play it? Groove on Dude Michael Conlen meconlen at intnet dot net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 22:19:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Conlen Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #409 Well I'm kinda new around here, and wanted to take a moment to say Howdy... ...Howdy folks! In any case I also thought I'd introduce my self, and say a few words. I started listening to KC with the Thrack album. I picked up on Fripp when my best friend got me the "Essential Fripp and Eno" album for my birthday a few years ago. Its still my most treasured album for many reasons. After I heard Thrack it was all over, it was no close call. There wasnt any question, I had a new favorite band. I've recently been picking up the older albums. I had ITCotCK for a bit, and have some 70's and 80's stuff. I love it all. While I listen to music all the time, and listen to all kinds of music except Country/Western, King Crimson is music which forces me to stop and listen to whats going on. I feel privilidged to be able to listen to this music. (Remember thoes who dont like something, you can always be rid of it, but your still lucky to have the opportunity to expiernce it). For the music, I thank Robert Fripp, and the various members of the various incarnations of King Crimson. Anyone notice the version of Thrack on Vroom sounds like KC had been listening to Primus before they recorded it? I like it. As far as the talks about music theory, its intresting on two seperate mailing lists, and one News group there is talk about music theory all at the same time! To thoes who dont like DGM's buisness practices, shop elsewhere. To Robert Fripp: You play the music, I'll buy it in support of you, so that you can play new music, so that I may listen to it. I've yet to be disapointed... ...and as I've not been playing long enough, (even if I "Practiced like hell") to get anywhere near as good as you, your music will always inspire me in my own music. Even if the sound quality is shitty at best, I like the live stuff beacuse the power and energy comes out so well. I really got in to Epitaph and 21st Century after hearing live versions of each. I'm curious on how many albums have to be sold for DGM to recoup expense (including money for Fripp to live on), including the time to pick the recording's, the songs, remaster them, produce, manufacture, market, ect. 74 minuets of music? Is it just me or is Robert Fripp curiously without an email address (even one he dosent answer him self) Have fun, and enjoy the music! Groove on Dude Michael Conlen meconlen at intnet dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:18:17 -0700 From: Fernando Perdomo Subject: More KC sountrack rippoffs, More Tingles MTV had a cartoon show called The Maxx whick had Levin's Stick intro to Sartori in Tangeirs looped over and over again at different volumes as the main ingredient of the soundtrack. I just saw a commerciol for Dannon with a blatant rippoff of Home By the Sea by Genesis. Tingles 1. Epitaph,I talk to the wind 2. Anything on dark side of the moon 3. Rush- Tears 4. Tori Amos- Precious Things and Blood Roses 5. Kate Bush- Breathing 6. Yes- Heart of the Sunrise 7. Bangles- Eternal Flame 8. Radiohead- Exit Song 9. Family- Spanish Tide 10. Curved Air- Love Child Fernando Perdomo ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 23:42:43 -0700 (PDT) From: syd at intergate dot bc dot ca (Chris Trinidad) Subject: '72 EDITION of KC Forgive me if I'm supposed to know this, but how was this formation, well.. formed? John Wetton was asked to join for the previous incarnation (Boz/Collins/Wallace), but declined stating that it wasn't the right mix of people. Bill Bruford and Robert Fripp had dinner one evening, and Bruford ended up leaving YES. But where did David Cross and Jamie Muir come from? And why did Boz/Collins/Wallace leave? On a side note, I'd like to comment that the '72 incarnation of the band is by far my favourite of all incarnations. The mix of classically trained (Cross), free jazz (Muir), rock (Wetton), more jazz (Bruford), everything rolled-into-one (Fripp) players makes for some of the most interesting/forward-thinking music ever created. It is a shame, however, that the strength of all the players was so great that the band imploded, losing its members one by one. Getting further off topic, it's funny how the most talented musicians can't stay together, or that their bands go through incredible amounts of member changes. We can see this in prog-rock (YES/KC/GENESIS/etc) It happened all the time in Jazz, maybe because the need for the players to explore their playing could only be achieved by playing with as many people as possible. On the other hand, the "rock aesthetic" is to stick together and grow as a unit, compromising strengths and weaknesses. Could it be a question of ego, perhaps? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:13:08 -0700 (PDT) From: syd at intergate dot bc dot ca (Chris Trinidad) Subject: Response to ET #409 (Mike Holst) >This is all under the assumption that Robert's definition of practice is a >structured, purposeful attempt at improving ones technical facility and >knowledge of their craft. (To wit: scales for guitarists, rudiments and >independence for drummers.) This was never my aproach. I simply soloed, >or played along with whatever I could hear in my head. (Close to the Edge >was a favourite.) And it was horrible. The stuff neighbors hate and >complain over. And I kept on. Eventually, things started falling into >place, one after the other. First, a little history.. I was much like yourself, practicing piano because my parents made me do it. Fine.. I hated it. But grew to love music once again after listening to Pink Floyd and, subsequently to KC and more progressive rock. I picked up the bass guitar, became intrigued, played for fun, joined the school stage band, and kept improving. Along the way, I have "re-picked-up" the piano, picked up the guitar and drums. I can proudly say I can play all with a certain facility; I'm lucky to be a natural at what I play. In fact, we are both lucky.. I too, have no technical knowledge, and my technique probably sucks on the instruments I do play. But I try to be aware of my faults, and where I think I can improve. But, there is always room for improvement. Unfortunately, we can only teach ourselves so much. Neil Peart once mentioned the "law of diminishing returns" where he was completely aware of the fact that his playing would never improve beyond a point, that he would reach his "ceiling" and that would be it. For me, I believe that my improving on all instruments has nearly reached its peak.. only because I now lack the necessary knowledge to continue improving. To remedy this, (Music already chosen, as a career, much like yourself) I have signed up for a very prestigious Jazz Studies program (college-level) here in Beautiful British Columbia, Canada. The program consists of Private Music Instruction as well as various courses to improve your musicianship. I look forward to attending school to learn more about what I play and don't play well. As for RF's views on practice, I'm sure he forgot to mention that practicing can be fun. Your "non-practicing", is in itself a form of practicing, in that you use the techniques which you find most favorable, inevitably throwing out things you don't see fit with your style, and practice them by way of repetition. I've gone that route, but trust me, there's still a long way to go before we can call ourselves master musicians. We need exposure to things/techniques we don't like, and learn why we don't like it for us to throw anything out. Much like learning a rule before you can break it. I see RF as a master musician because he overcame rhythm problems, tonedeafness, and playing a right-handed guitar (he is left-handed as far as I know) with discipline, practicing hours upon endless hours. I don't know how much of a natural musician he is since (please, no flames on this one) his playing feels laboured (could be a part of his style/training). Nevertheless, he plays from the heart, so that's pretty much all that matters, doesn't it? Chris Trinidad Richmond, BC, Canada ------------------------------ From: jlack at auran dot com (Jamie Lack) Subject: Fripp and Reid, Tony and Doug Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 17:37:26 +1000 Does anyone like to imagine how the result of a musical collaboration between Robert Fripp, Vernon Reid, Tony Levin and Doug Wimbish might sound? (Hmmm, need some percussion possibly - how about Igor Cavalera and Stephen Perkins?) [looks like a case of supergroupitis] Ever since Robert and Vernon interviewed each other in a guitar magazine a few years back, I go into a state of anxiousness. I seem to have lost the said magazine sometime in the last year. This is a great loss to me, so If any other Et'er knows the whereabouts of an attainable copy or text transcription, could you please help me out. I also must harmonise with Mark Jordans wish for KC to play somewhere near Australia's end of the hemisphere. We wait, we wait. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:51:56 -0700 From: "Eric D. Dixon" Subject: Re: L. Rob Hubbard, race, & RED Ted White wrote: >L. Ron Hubbard was indeed one of the greatest con men of this century. >He probably ranks with the man who created the Church of the Latter Day >Saints; Scientology has major parallels with Mormonism. Neither is a >genuine religion; Scientology was set up as one strictly for tax >purposes. Oh, please! Whatever your religious opinions, ET is far from the place to spew them. For the record, Mormonism has nothing to do with Scientology, in belief, foundation, or operation, and you can no more demonstrate its falsity than you could demonstrate that Islam, Buddhism or even Christianity in general is fraudulent. And yes, I'm familiar with your stale arguments -- I've read anti-Mormon literature voraciously since I was a teenager. If you (or anyone else) want to continue this discussion by private e-mail, that's fine by me, but from now on leave your non-musical rantings out of ET. Eric D. Dixon |\|\//\|\| "Making the world safe humbaba at bigfoot dot com |/|/\\/| | for radical capitalism" http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/6072/ Ask me for my PGP public key "People want to know why I do this, why I write such gross stuff. I like to tell them I have the heart of a small boy -- and I keep it in a jar on my desk." -- Stephen King ------------------------------ From: Jeff Liss Subject: Levin/Bozzio/Stevens in Japan -- Tokyo? Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:57:17 +-900 Folks, I sent the following note to Magna Carta, not knowing who else to send it to. Any ideas? The dates must be soon since they are between now and the DGM thing on Sept. 13. Maybe Tony just forgot to mention Tokyo? -- To whom it may or may not concern I don't know if you all have anything to do with the tour, but I read on Tony's homepage about the Japan dates. Is it possible that they are not playing Tokyo? He mentions Fukuoka, Osaka, Nagoya... -- I was looking forward to seeing some of these smaller specialized tours while living in Japan but it hasn't come true yet... Jeff Liss Tokyo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:27:25 -0800 From: Eb Subject: Re: double standards >From: dumela at nicom dot com (tj) > >>From: Eb >>To sum up: I hate Sylvian's voice. >>I hate... >>I hate... >>I hate... >>I'm indifferent... >>I do not like... > >I learned from Fripp that this says much more about Eb than Sylvian. Thus >I conclude that Eb is stuffed full of hate or envisions suckering us into >thinking he is. Either way we get nowhere. Yes, Fripp's thoughts about critics were very perceptive. What you may forget is, this applies to positive comments also. And believe me, when I read all the swooning "Fripp is God/King Crimson is the best band of all time/King Crimson makes all '90s bands irrelevant/John Wetton's last show was incredible/I can't wait for the new Gordon Haskell album/Porcupine Tree is the most innovative group of the decade/The beauty of ELP makes me cry," etc. posts, I do learn a lot about those critics also. As for me being filled with hate, there is no doubt in my mind that I could wax rapturous about dozens of bands who would inspire nothing but hatred from other ET folks. It's interesting how no one was complaining about hatred a couple of months ago, during that long spell of "Punk is just worthless noise" posts. >Do we know what Fripp thinks about Sylvian's voice, writing style and >timing? Is it important to know his opinion? When another earthling earns >my respect I seek her/his opinion. Seems like no one questions anyone's right to express opinions...as long as the opinions don't differ from the established ET Groupthink. Something tells me that if I had raved at length about how GREAT Sylvian is, no one would talking about how personal opinions are irrelevant and unimportant, hmm? But I'll certainly keep your thoughts in mind the next time I read someone raving about how great Islands is. Eb ------------------------------ Subject: Warsaw voice Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 11:43:18 +0100 From: Jerzy Labuda Hi all ETers In #400 Piotr Zlotkowski from Warsaw wrote something stupid, so i feel under obligation to assure, that GIG in Warsaw was incredibly good. All of my friends was impressed, press and other media's reactions were enthusiastic. In Poland KC has large group of fans, so please don't judge our audience by one silly letter. Jurek Labuda (jlabuda at idg dot com dot pl) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:32:07 -0400 From: Francois Couture <93039260 at callisto dot si dot usherb dot ca> Subject: Black & White Snipet of an ET conversation : >> This subject is probably old, but I wonder I >>there are not many black progressive rock musicians. > >Because they were called 'fusion' musicians (such as David Sancious). >Personally, I've always felt the ersatz distinction between the two was an >invention of the considerably racist American music press in the 70's. I >don't know what the perspective was like elsewhere. If you are just a bit into world music, check out OSIBISA, a 70s African band that stands just on the border of progressive music. Really astonishing. The kind of musical blending you have to hear to believe. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:46:15 -0400 From: Ramsey Kurdi Subject: Sigh.... It is a crying shame that the subject of money brings this lurker out for his second posting - but here goes... Michael Townshend's posting (E.T. #410) states his point with a little more class than I would, but I wholeheartedly agree. All performers trying to make a living experience this duality. Most artisans that have been around as long as Mr. Fripp has are a little less obvious about it, though. To release at least 5 products around the same basic set of material, and so quickly (especially after a HUGE drought of output), and to have them all sell quite well, would make anyone in music distribution quite envious. I would like to thank whoever it was that has handled their recent tours for keeping the ticket prices down. K.C. fans everywhere are thankful that these tours have not been as costly to us as, say Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles. As the product is far more profitable than the tour - the fans certainly have "paid" for a relatively inexpensive tour. But make no mistake about it - I bought it all...when "The Night Watch" comes, I'll eagerly gobble it up. P.S. I don't remember who said otherwise in E.T. #409, but there most certainly is such a thing as a perfect octave.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 10:19:29 -0500 From: "Marc I Roemer" Subject: Con man I suspect the "Gurdjieff was a con man" quote doesn't refer to his teachings per se, but to the fact (as admitted in one of his books) that he once made a living selling yellow-painted pigeons as canaries. Marc Roemer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 08:58:52 -0700 From: "christopher trionfo" Subject: Fripp's post Organization: MailExcite (http://www.mailexcite.com) Greetings from the woods of Rockland County, New York. After lurking for almost 9 months, i am compelled to reply because of Fripp's post. One thing you must concede to Bobby is that he does listen to our requests. We asked for Frejus, Perfect Pair, and Amsterdam, and he's giving them to us, as soon as legally and sonically feasible as possible. Next item: if you're going to criticize, you had better have your arguements well thought out, because he will take you on sentence by sentence(frame by frame?). Thirdly, on the subject of audience, i must disagree with Bobby on this subject. i do not think it is unfortunate that a musician cannot pick his or her audience. By choosing to become performing musicians, we choose to open ourselves to anyone who will listen. i am supremely grateful to have any audience at all, even if they can be a bit unruly.(not that Robert is ungrateful, i would think.) Frank Zappa reveled in the kookiness of his crowd, while classical musicians would prefer not to hear even a pin drop, so i guess it is a matter of how sensitive one is, and Fripp has proven himself nothing if not sensitive, as most artists are, in one way or another. Lastly, it really does surprise me, the lack of attention Bill gets in this discussion group. His obvious place in the pantheon of percussionists aside, he is as big a part of this band as Fripp is, and is the engine that drives it. it would certainly be possible to make the arguement that just as without Fripp there would be no Crimson, without Bill there would be no Crimson. See you at the shows.( i'll be silently grooving -- chris the infidel a.k.a. bru bilford Free web-based e-mail, Forever, From anywhere! http://www.mailexcite.com ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Grant's Rant Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:09:46 -0400 While I agree with the overall import of Grant Colburn's rant in 409, I do have a few specific quibbles: "...which brings me to the whiner about crimson vs. ELP. If you actually listened to real classical music you would realize the unoriginality of ELP. ... fripp and crimson are one of the few progressive voices who at least take inspiration from MODERN classical music (bartok, stravinsky etc.) why borrow from a style of music that the composers themselves have abandoned?" I want to stay out of ELP vs Crimson stuff; I like Crimson better, Greg Lake's published comments about the post-Lake Crimson annoy me, but I bought ELP's albums as they came out and enjoyed the first several quite a bit at the time. There is room enough in this world for both groups - it's not an either/or situation. That said, Grant has his facts wrong. I've never heard any Bartok or Stravinsky in Crimson - which isn't to say they haven't influenced or inspired KC; I have no idea. But ELP's first studio album had a long piece that all but ripped off Bartok, betraying a strong "inspiration" there. And "Pictures at an Exhibition" is generally considered "MODERN classical music." ELP has also used Copeland - a 20th century composer. ELP has used more from modern classical music than KC has; as previously noted, KC's major classical influences seem to be Holst and maybe Ravel. As for borrowing "from a style of music that the composers themselves have abandoned," this quote betrays a real ignorance of how classical music "works." Nothing has been abandoned, in terms of styles and forms - only mediocre, 2nd string composers/compositions that failed The Test of Time (or were overlooked and may at any time be rediscovered). Stravinsky himself abandoned the exuberant, rhythmic style of his youth (for which he remains best known) for "Neoclassicism," a re-exploration of older, "classic" forms and styles from a more modern perspective. My favorites among 20th century composers are Ives (a giant!), Bartok, Stravinsky, Janacek, and Poulenc - among many others (Antheil, Cowell, the list goes on and...). As another ETer noted, "progressive rock" is essentially the marriage of European classical music with the rhythm, vigor, and sheer viscerality of rock, with some jazz, blues, etc. thrown in: the marriage of European and American musics. There is much of value to be found on both continents, but for some reason although the audience for "prog" seems to be greatest in the USA (note the breakdown of ET subscribers), this country has produced relatively little progressive rock of quality, compared with that produced in Europe. And so it goes.... --TW (Dr. P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 12:25:42 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Prog rock/jazz, Zen Responses to 2 posts in #410: 1. Michael Damian Jeter said that prog rock has/had little to do with American jazz... I would submit that the "Canterbury" school of prog-rock (Caravan, Soft Machine, Matching Mole, Hatfield & the North, Gong, etc) was highly influenced by jazz. 2. Mark Jordan asked what Robert Fripp meant about freedom from like and dislike. It is presumptuous of me to respond for Robert, or for the many other ETers who are doubtless more informed on this topic than I, but this has been an important concept in my life, so here goes. There are certain basic things we need to stay alive -- air, food, water, etc. Then there are millions of other things we do not need, but desire -- security, esteem, sex, drugs, rock & roll, etc. We tend to mistake desires for needs. That is, if we very much want things to be a certain way, we tend to feel that we *need* them to be that way, or else... or else... or else what? Or else we'll feel horrible because our life is a failure and that would be intolerable, right? When we think this way, we are not free, because we are being controlled by our desires -- we are allowing them to constrain our world-view and our behavior. We may be unable to even consider pursuing any aims that include doing without the desired state. We gain freedom when we realize the distinction between needs and desires, i.e., when we realize that all desires are negotiable -- no matter how much we want something, we can choose to do without it if doing so serves an aim we consider sufficiently worthwhile. This is basically similar to some of the underlying ideas of Zen. -- Chris Jepson Graffito of the week: Jesus is coming -- everybody look busy. ------------------------------ From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: Robert's Post and "Rock Gods" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:38:13 PDT I was most impressed by Robert Fripp's lengthy, considered, and witty post in ET 408. After all, he didn't have to respond personally to ETers' complaints, particularly regarding DGM business over which he has no direct responsibility, but he did--and I think that speaks volumes about the man's integrity and concern for the consumer. I think it would have been reasonable for him to delegate this task entirely to Jeff the Hero. Instead, he responded directly to ET's readership. I hope that his response will lay to rest the notion that Fripp is a dastardly, money-grubbing old cuss out to swindle gullible Crimheads. Robert's post teaches several important lessons. First of all, it's specious to blame Fripp for DGM's mail order and management problems. Robert doesn't work in the mailroom, manage the daily operations of the company, or balance the books. He hires other people to perform these duties. If they behave irresponsibly, unscrupulously, or lazily, that does not reflect on him. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the actions of DGM's ex-manager. But they remind me of incidents that occurred in my own place of business several years ago, which have since been resolved and are a matter of public record. An internal auditor uncovered evidence of misappropriation of college funds by our highest ranking administrator! "Dr. S" had occupied his position for twelve years and was thought to be of unimpeachable character. Well, it's a truism among auditors that embezzlement is committed by the unlikeliest people; that's one reason they get away with it--they are trusted individuals. His actions were an appalling betrayal of position and authority; and as our name, Illinois Eastern Community Colleges implies, a public trust was also betrayed, since we are accountable to taxpayers. In the wake of these allegations "Dr. S." resigned and made restitution. Like the DGM ex-manager, "Dr. S" abused a position of trust. But just as it would be unreasonable to blame the entire college district for one man's dishonesty, it is likewise unreasonable to hold Robert and DGM responsible for his former employee's actions. Like Robert, I read between the lines of Piotr Zlotkowski's posting. I conclude 1) that Peter attempted to bootleg the concertq; 2) prefers ELP to KC; and 3) he plainly prefers a rock and roll spectacle to a concert: he wants to see knife-throwing (isn't that one of Keith Emerson's trademarks?) and wishes to be bathed not in a "blessing of tears" but a "benediction of saliva"! Judging from the tone and content of his post I suspect that Mr. Zlotkowski is quite young and romantic in his attitude towards rock musicians. Youthful immaturity may not entirely excuse him, but his remarks are symptomatic of a worshipful attitude among certain fans. He literally wants "a piece" of his idols. It is analogous to the impulse that leads people to collect saints's relics or pieces of the True Cross. . .or in this case, the "rock god's" precious bodily fluids! Hence, he is disappointed that Robert doesn't jump around on stage like Jerry Lee Lewis or otherwise behave like a rock deity. I enjoyed Sergei Kantere's hilarious proposals to market Robert's saliva. He deftly lampoons this desire to deify musicians. To paraphrase Frank Zappa, these fans "wouldn't let just anybody spew on their vital parts;/They want a guy from a group with a big hit single in the charts!" As Robert has made abundantly clear elsewhere, he does not want to be deified by his listeners. That's commendable, I think. Remember, it can be a short hop from deification to crucifixion. So much for opinions from "deep in the heart of Darkest America, home of the brave." Best, Doug ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Odds N Sods Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:13:09 -0400 In 409 Ethan Taylor Sellers had a number of sensible things to say, and I'd like to add a sidebar to his comments on Tony Banks' use of the mellotron (with which I agree): I interviewed Banks in the late 70's (about the time Genesis became a trio) and, along with telling me what a big fan of Brian Wilson/The Beach Boys he was (which bonded us), he told me that Genesis got their first mellotron from King Crimson. How about that? In 410 Gordon Emory Anderson asks am I "THAT Ted White." (Well, yes, I am.) When I interviewed Mr. Fripp in 1979, I told him that I knew everyone was pressing tapes of their groups on him (I'd been given a couple to give him, myself), but that I wanted to give him something he could read while traveling (on his Frippertronics tour) so I gave him copies of a couple of my books. He took them from me, looked at them for a moment, and then brightened, looking back at me with a grin. "Oh," he said. "You're THAT Ted White!" (I have this on tape.) The following hour or so went very enjoyably. I'm glad to discover, Gordon, that you too are an old reader of mine, even if we sometimes disagree on other issues. (Speaking of which, I have no particular beef with "analog," nor am I per se a proponent of "digital." My complaints are limited to the many compromises forced by the lp medium, a definite subcategory of "analog.") PHOENIX PRIME was one of mine, yes. (Have you read the sequels, SORCERESS OF QAR and STAR WOLF [not my title]? They are, unfortunately, all out of print - except in Italy and Japan....) Eb responds to a couple of my comments. "Free form freakouts" as a concept comes from rock, not jazz. The early Mothers were known for them, but I first saw the term used (I think) by the Red Crayola. Ornette Coleman's FREE JAZZ (with a double quartet including Eric Dolphy) predates that and is probably the first recorded example of totally free jazz (and maybe fits the definition of "free form freakout" even if it didn't have that label); subsequently Sun Ra (an opportunist) got heavily into this sort of unstructured "free" music, and of course one of his main players was tenor saxophonist James Gilmore - an acknowledged influence (in the mid-50's) on Coltrane. But. I think that's about the closest connection between Coltrane and "jazz free form freakouts." (The "African Sessions" albums were arranged albums; no free jazz there. Wasn't Oliver Nelson the arranger? I'll have to check my copies.) "Real solo album": I called EXPOSURE that because in it Fripp presented himself in a variety of musical situations and with a variety of musicians, but, unlike his collaborations (with Eno and Summers) it was His Album, his overall vision. I was aware as soon as I wrote that comment that it could be argued that his Frippertronics and Soundscapes albums were every bit as much "solo" albums - more so, in that he solos alone - so if it bothers you, modify my comment to "Fripp's first solo album." But, in the rock context, I still regard EXPOSURE as his only "real" solo album. Put it this way: there's a lot less ego on the other solo albums, which don't have much in the way of up-front lead-soloing on them. I get the impression he doesn't want to present much ego on his current works, but I miss those flaming solos of old. (In the early 70's I used to drop acid, put on a KC album (all of them, actually) and tell my companions, "Let's hear what Mr. Fripp has to tell us today." It was always a rewarding experience.) Finally, Tom Ace mentions isolating the voices on "Larks' Tongues Pt. 1" by listening to the difference (L-R) signal. This is most easily done using the Dynaquad system - which requires only two channels of amplification. I used it throughout the 70's, having been introduced to it by the Beach Boys' SUNFLOWER (recorded to be heard to best effect in Dynaquad). Several subsequent Brother Records albums were also recorded for Dynaquad - but it makes any stereo album sound far better. Sahara's FOR ALL THE CLOWNS' title track has a stunning synthesizer sweep that runs around the room for 360 degrees in Dynaquad. Check it out: all it requires is wire and one or two back speakers. --TW (Dr. P) ------------------------------ From: Support Rep 2 Subject: Who has heard this album? Date: Thu, 21 Aug 97 16:40:00 PDT I have seen at a local compact disc store an album by Michael Giles, Jamie Muir, and a guy named David Cunningham. Has anyone heard this? What's it like? Email responses are welcome... Scottt Gold ------------------------------ From: "Jason Bell" Subject: Re: The Double Trio Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:23:55 +0100 >Double Trio I ask? How in the world did Mr. Fripp come up with this? First >off, which three members are in *each* trio? Moreover, on every KC CD, >album, etc. that I possess with this so called double trio, they are ALL >playing together. Hence I ask, why a double trio? Wouldn't it be more >dispassionate to consider the six of them a sextet? Can we reasonably >assume that this is due to two guitars, two drums, two bass? if my memory serves me correctly. The original idea for the double trio was two drummers, two sticks and two guitars. Robert had suggested to Tlev the idea of two Sticks (Tlev hadn't heard of TGunn at the time but was totally open to the idea, if Robert says TGunn is a brilliant Stickist, why go against it ?). The aim was one trio would hold the groove, the other would basically destroy it. It looked good on paper, but didn't transfer so well on tape. VROOOM was the closest thing they got to it. Tlev also stated in a Bass Player magazine interview that KC can't put everything down in one album and would certainly have another go at it. The idea of two Sticks was a wonderful idea, but only got as far as the improv on B'Boom, just before Elephant Talk. Tlev had also been apprached by Ned Steinberger with his new upright bass, Tony used that for most of the THRAK album. I understand what you are trying to get across and I hope my comment helps a bit (though not much !). Regards Jason Bell Chapman Stick Player - For Hire............. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 20:47:48 -0400 (EDT) From: KenLac at aol dot com Subject: Re: greedy old Fripp In ET#410 Michael Townsend comments: :: I was pretty disgusted when I saw :: KC open the HORDE festival last summer. An attempt to "reach a broader :: audience"? Why would Fripp want to do that when he complains how unfair it :: is that the performer is not able to choose his audient? The whole :: exercise seemed to be about low-overhead touring with a guaranteed :: revenue, plus a chance to pick up some more people - no matter what their :: audiential qualifications - who just might want to buy some of the recorded :: product. I think they call this "the music business." So, what is it exactly that you would like to see the band do instead? Would you somehow be more pleased to see them continue to lose money in less prominent contexts in the name of some view of artistic "purity"? If I recall correctly, art is not defined as a charity. Where on earth has the idea come from that as soon as an artist dares concern themselves with financial realities that they are automatically compromising their art? King Crimson is still King Crimson, whether in the context of the HORDE tour, headlining their own show, or a public washroom. As far as I can tell, no musical compromises were made in the context of HORDE (and HORDE ain't exactly "Up With People" either). If the band were to suddenly say, "We want to reach a broader audience, so we're going to do more three-chord pop tunes from now on," or "We don't think Blues Traveler fans will get our stuff, so we'll dumb it down for this tour," then I would cry "sell-out" in a moment. But come now: you're offered two options for touring: in one option you play to the faithful, you have to create the structure and the marketing yourself, and you risk losing money. In the other you gain the opportunity to expose new people to your art, the faithful can still attend, you plug into an already created structure and you know you'll make money. You play the same music in either option. Shall we vote? I also might propose the theory that increased record sales can matter to an artist for reasons beyond merely monetary. I know as an artist myself that one of the primary driving forces behind creativity is the desire to communicate ideas and emotions to others. For musicians in modern times, one of the major methods for this communication is through recordings and their sale. The more people who buy your album, the more people HEAR your album. That should be enough of a motivation to explain the desire to sell records in and of itself. But then add in financial realities to the equation: if you don't sell any records, you don't make any money. If you don't make any money, you don't survive. If you don't survive, you don't make any music. "Artistic purity" don't mean much when you're struggling to pay the gas bill. :: plus a chance to pick up some more people - no matter what their :: audiential qualifications - who just might want to buy some of the recorded :: product. I think they call this "the music business." Yes, and they also call it "connecting with new fans". Perhaps certain of us already in the KC fan club would be happier if we enacted a freeze: nobody else gets to join the club so that we can have the band all to ourselves without having to sully ourselves with the common folk. Or perhaps we should enact some kind of means-testing before allowing people to buy KC albums or see KC shows. ("True or false: Rick Wakeman was the most talented member of Yes.") In short, it's time to put the "quantity automatically equals crassness" mentality to bed, and good riddance. Ken Lacouture. (intelligent rebuttals to the group: flames to me) ------------------------------ From: bdelfino at epix dot net (Barry Delfino) To: DanKirkd at aol dot com Date: 97-08-03 00:26:08 EDT Please Robert, release Earthbound on CD. As a KC fanatic, I need to have my Earthbound "fix", which I unfortunately I've had to do without since the days of vinyl. -- Barry ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Fri, 22 Aug 97 09:20:59 PST Subject: Midi files Hi All If anybody wants my midi file of Three of a Perfect Pair just send me a line. Regards Mark Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:18:42 -0500 From: Neal Brown Subject: Productive periods In 410, Stephen Arthur asked if there were any musicians who had a more prolific period than Bruford's Close To The Edge/LTIA period....uh, Miles Davis put out four albums in 1955-1956: "Workin;," "Steamin'," "Cookin'," and "Relaxin'." In '57 Miles put out "Miles Ahead," "Milestones" and "Porgy and Bess" came out in '58, "Sketches of Spain" and "Kind of Blue" came out in '59 (the later is one of the most infuential albums of the 20th century). Although Bruford and Belew have been prolific, neither one of them holds a candle to Miles. And indeed John Crowe is a dopey sycophant, but then again I think all of the ETers have to at least have a *little* of that in em. ;) P.S. Upon reflection, Fripp's apparently legendary 408 post makes him resemble a cross between Big Brother and a llama with a really acidic sense of humor, doesn't it? And if you'll excuse me, I have to go get some "Starless" tingles. =) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:20:18 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Words and the Unconcious There have been some parallel threads here recently (lucid dreaming, music and the unconcious (I say 'unconcious' a la Jung), and Fripp's comments on words and their relation to the truth) that I'd like to try weaving together a bit. As a result of Fripp's post, I've tried thinking about words, and how they may or may not relate to "truth". In particular, he mentions the Chinese written language, and here we have an interesting intersection. According to contemporary scholarship, Chinese characters seem to have their origin in the tortoise-shell oracles of as early as 6,000 to 7,000 BC (almost unbelievably early). These were characters that were burned into the shells of tortoises and then (I think), the shell would be deliberately cracked somehow so that the cracks would propagate near several characters, giving an indication of the future. It is interesting, then, to note that at least in China that the written word has a direct relationship to a process that must at least partially give way to the collective unconcious. Many of the characters themselves give hint of this type of formation. My wife (who is Chinese) and i were examining the characters for "peace" ("he ping"), and we noticed that the component radicals by which they are made consist of "grain", "measure", and "equal". So I guess if two neighboring groups had equivalent foodstocks, there would be no problems....... Is this a reflection of truth? Dunno. If it is a clear representation of common humanity then i guess so. Likewise for music. The greatest music is "timeless" in the sense that it always seems relevant to the time in which it is being heard, but nevertheless it reflects something important about the time in which it is created. By "important" I guess I mean it somehow hints at the massive undercurrents at motion in the collective unconcious. It "rides" that wave but does not get swallowed by it. Bowie's music is a good example. Until 1980 Bowie was a sort of Shaman, but by the time "Let's Dance" came out, he seems to have been swallowed up by the crappy 1980s spirit. In this sense i suppose we could say that "Low" is 'true' but "Let's Dance" is perhaps a 'lie'. In a similar vein the worst of "prog rock" may be well-played and complex, but be lifeless, while the best of punk rock sounds like crap but has some real power to it. And then there are those who hear that "life" and try to capture it in a formula (or who perhaps think that memorization of certain phrases equates with understanding something--words become a trap). Ah well, some champion-level rambling! -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:05:58 -0400 From: Worth Godwin Subject: In the Wake of the Master (Crimson music on TV) >Interesting: I saw part of a TV documentary on the Bermuda Triangle >sometime in the early '80s--I think it was on PBS, but I could be >wrong--and damned if they didn't also use a snippet of KC's "The Devil's >Triangle" on the soundtrack! There was no credit shown for Crimson, >though. Now if the band had been honest and titled that track "Mars," It >would have shown up in space exploration documentaries instead... Hi, I've just joined and was expecting to lurk for a bit before posting, but seeing this thread, I thought I'd respond. About two or three years ago I was watching a Doctor Who story called The Mind of Evil. This story featured the Master, one of the Doctor's enemies, who has a goatee, and looks a bit like the devil -- at the beginning of one scene the Master is sitting in the back of a limo listening to a radio which he switches off a couple of seconds later -- what I suddenly realized was the Master was listening to The Devil's Triangle! Rather apropos, I think. 8) Worth -=-=- The TARDIS Databanks: http://www.compcenter.com/~worth/drwho/ Personal homepage: http://www.compcenter.com/~worth/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 11:15:53 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: Fripp and the Golden Mean While re-reading Edward Macan's progressive-rock study _Rockin' the Classics_ (also discussed in previous ETs) I came across the following interview snippet on page 57, quoted from a 1986 _Guitar Player_ interview: Fripp: "What's the implication of building a formal structure on the golden mean and Fibonacci progressions, rather than on traditional formal symmetry of the Western classical tradition? Again, what would the implication be of working in five rather than four beats?" Tom Mulhern: "You wouldn't get much pop radio airplay." Fripp: "Well, that's probably true." It is evident that Fripp is at least aware of Fibonaccian proportions; as has been posted here earlier, they can also be found all over the place in the music of Bartok (who I hear is openly cited by Fripp as a major influence on Crimso). Can anybody supply the wider context of this quote? Does Fripp actually go on to answer his own questions, or are they rhetorical? I wonder... Kevin Holm-Hudson Department of Academic Studies and Composition Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 e-mail: kholmhud at nwu dot edu It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. -- The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 18:45:17 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Stealing songs and buying calendars. I go away from the computer for a day, and find two new ETs to peruse! Thanks for the wondeful digest, Toby. A couple of comments from ET 409: >From: David Maclennan >Subject: Caves/new Discipline releases > > >Other new goodies to note are: > >and coming soon: > > 1988 Soundscapes calendar (paintings by John Miller) Well, I'd think these'd be pretty cheap. since they're calendars from 9 years ago. Wait a second! What an innovation! Only from the mind of RF would we see the idea of selling calendars of the past: that way, you can remember what happened to you that year (weddings, parties, dates, etc.) and not worry about the future. Good going! :) >From: Julio Garcia >Subject: Steal another KC song for TV > >Hey just saw this: > >Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk wrote in ET-405: > >> I was watching a chinese version (with subtitles) of Bruce Lee - The >> Big Boss and guess what was on the soundtrack. Larks Tongue's in Aspic >> Pt1. Pink Floyd - Time and a Tangerine Dream track were also used in >> the movie. I wonder if RF earned royalties for this. Does anybody else >> know of strange occurences of KC music in films or TV. Oh I forgot, >> there was an ad for a drink called Frutopia on TV in Aus and the music >> was a rip off of Neal and Jack and Me (I think). Anyway someone must >> have done something about this because it changed after a couple of >> weeks. > >There's a Japan animated series (anime) series called The Slayers which >rips off the violin riff from LTiA part1. It is so blatant that Fripp >should seek legal action. > >Neil I know they used the opening riff of "Satori In Tangier" in the cartoon "The Maxx" from MTV. I don't remember them crediting any of the music in that cartoon, unless they did so in the videocassette. Anyone know? --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 02:49:45 -0400 From: Andy McClelland Subject: Fighting the Man Grant Colburn wrote: > the only reason to create music is to attempt to make it something that > hasn't existed before. i never understand the attitude of writing a new > song with the same chords and the same beat as what already exists. when i > write music i feel i'm being commercial by actually going from a I chord to > a IV chord! > Music is an art form, not a commercial effort or a statement against commercialism. The chord structure and beat (along with melody, structure, etc.) are all vehicles to express an idea. The artist creates/performs the music for the listener. Anyone who claims the listener is not important is wrong. Music conveys ideas, and if there isn't anybody to receive the idea, what's the use? The artist that claims he will still perform without an audience is denying that fact that HE is the audience for himself. But I digress. Ideas that have been done before *usually* don't convey much. However, originality does not necessarily imply a valid musical idea. If I throw my TV out the window, and record it in the name of originality, that would be something different, but not interesting or substantial. Some musical ideas are overdone, but that doesn't make them bad. I think that progressions like I-IV-V would be used a lot more in art music if it wasn't so hideously abused by pop. I would guess many avoid it in the name of originality. Good music comes from inside. Music that is made to make money is bad. On the same note, music that is made against commerciality, in essence made not to make money, is equally as bad. I would guess that Fripp makes his music in an artistic manner, and then, with a noncommercial, real idea on his hands, complains about the music business. Music is an art, not a picket sign slapped (or crafted) together in defiance of something else. If you want to protest the music business, write a letter, picket outside their office, but don't add to the clutter of today's music. And by the way, don't fool yourself into thinking you can create any harmonic structure in this tonal system that hasn't been tried before. There's only twelve keys, and there's been hundreds of years of experimenting. If you stumble on something "original" its probably been tried and abandoned for some reason or another. Disclaimer: This message is not (entirely) directly aimed at Grant, he just got me thinking. -Andy McClelland -- ____________________________________________________ I mean, I love Jon [Anderson] dearly, but he's one of those guys who's trying to save the planet while living on another one. -Rick Wakeman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 21:21:27 -0400 From: Andy McClelland Subject: lyrics I have been prompted to add my .02 after reading a literary explanation of Lizard. After listening to Prog for a while, and I feel that the lyrics add little if anything to the music. King Crimson (and Yes, ELP, and other narorious silly lyricists) are musicians, not poets. The ideas that make them stand out from the pack are musical ideas. Of course, Palmer-James was solely a lyricist, but, as a weilder of words, I can't believe righting lyrics for rock songs was his ultimate career goal. Did Shakespeare, ee cummings, WC Williams, or orther famous poets write lyrics? Of course not. The poetic artistry out there makes prog lyrics look like micheal jackson next to KC music. It reminds me of Allan Ginsberg's Ballad of the Skeletons (Ginsberg took took one of his poems and put it to some music composed by Paul McCartney and Phillip Glass, I think). Lyrically, it is great, but the musical ideas are simple and trite. Because a artist is great in one art form, it doesn't mean he has a mastery of all. Just had to get that off my chest. -Andy McClelland _____________________________________ I mean, I love Jon [Anderson] dearly, but he's one of those guys who's trying to save the planet while living on another one. -Rick Wakeman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 97 05:22:24 UT From: "Jonathan Korein" Subject: Fripp Analysis 1. I find it startling and hilarious to hear Fripp refer to Wetton as the "bass beast of terror. He is. 2. To set it straight - the string sounds on the beginning of VROOOM and VROOOM VROOOM are Mellotron, but not the famous string setting we know and love - rather a hokey "instant-song" setting where you hold one key and it plays a little song. However, I heard that it is also being occasionally manipulated by pitch bends. Source: Ray Jung, who has played with a mellotron and knows a lot about them. He also took Guitar Craft. Cool guy. Dinosaur: Guitar synth except for a tiny bit in the first bridge. SSEDD: Mellotron. 3. Though I think Fripp's letter was a tad excessive, he has the right to defend himself. 4. As to DGM's "release everything, let the fans sort it out" policy, I think it is a bit silly, but is much better than the other extreme - only releasing THRAK. I think Fipp does it mainly because he can - during the E.G. years THRAKATTAK would have never seen the light of day. I don't like that album, but I would say it is good they released it because many people did like it, and if I don't like it, I don't have to buy it. Let me repeat that: if you don't like it, don't buy it, and don't tell us. >>I believe Lizard to be my favorite album of all time. > >Man, what am I doing on this list? This is an example of the kind of exchange which I think should be private, not public. People could argue forever about what they like or do not like. You just have to accept that people have different tastes than yours. 5. BLACK VS. WHITE MUST DIE!!! JUST LIKE MALE VS. FEMALE CRIM FANS!!! It is talk like this which leads to generalizations and people getting offended. This is the kind of thing which leads to racism/sexism. STOP!!! 6. Someone said that they were pretty disgusted by KC being on HORDE. Well, you puke right now and get it over with, because Fripp said KC may do Lollapooloza 98. He said this: that Crimson cost incredible amounts of money to bring on tour, and a package tour alleviates some of the pressure. I sympathize. Many will not. 7. " Also too, remember that Robert Fripp is a human being for Christ's sake and he reads this stuff. He doesn't need to be told that he's an asshole or that he's a god, he's neither, he's just an eccentric, highly creative and reclusive englishman who plays the guitar like a mofo" YES!!! I agree. People, relax. 7. In a second, I'll send a "Analysis of Fripp's Guitar Style" to be posted on the page. I wanted to do something similar for a while, and also, someone mentioned some stuff about analyzing Fracture, so I'll assume the interest is there. ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: Classics vs Modern Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:09:08 -0700 I thought I'd respond to a few points made here by Grant Colburn: From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (grant colburn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:04:44 -0500 Subject: canadian retailer woes and fripp response > fripp and crimson are creating the >new art music of the late 20th century. Actually, this is not a vindication at all. I will avow that KC has been known in the past for implementing new and experimental music thus being the progenitors when compared to other progressive bands. However, as of late, KC has been echoing much of the music that they have already done ( the "RED" era, for example). > which brings me to the whiner >about crimson vs. ELP. if you actually listened to real classical music >you >would realize the unoriginality of ELP. most of what they and YES do >was >done to death by 1000's of classical writers the world has never heard of. Perhaps with ELP. Although their approach at the time was quite unique in comparison to the 1000 classical writers of old. As far as YES is concerned, what classical themes are you referring to? Their unique modus operandi does lend at times some themes from the classics, but really not that frequently. >fripp and crimson are one of the few progressive voices who at least take >inspiration from MODERN classical music (bartok, stravinsky etc.) why >borrow from a style of music that the composers themselves have >abandoned? Does taking from MODERN classical music really mean that it is better? I boast both modern and earlier classical music. There is a time and a place for both. The only reason the composers themselves have abondoned the earlier classical forms of music is because they died. I speculate that this was *not* their choice. I think it is great that currently living human beings keep the old flames alive forever also. Death and time should not be a determining factor for what is good and what isn't. Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 19:55:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Meleril at aol dot com Subject: RF & Plato's philosophy etc. there was a post a while ago regarding the differences between RF & Plato, the points were well made, yet I feel Plato was made to look a bit lateral (like some lifeless demagogue) and this adds to what religion has done to the man already. In my experience with Plato he was an omni thinker, and didn't think the same way about everything, and when it came to the underworld or the afterlife he was very much an experimentalist, I realized this reading Phaedo and listening to A.L.Huxley's dystopian lectures, therefore what I'm trying to add is that Plato had a playful side and indeed I believe he was a mystic! not trying to debate the original post just add another way of seeing the man. I would also like to coment on Raoul Bjorkenheim guitar player on Phantom City the Paul Schutze band, he reminds me very much of Mr Fripp, could he have been one of his students? does anyone know of any other work of his ( I heard only site anubis). and my last comment is on my personal theory on why great musicians like to work with Sylvian; first there was Picasso, later we have Eno and in the 80's we get Sylvian (or better known to progrockers as the Batt kid), I would also like to mention the genesis for this theory, another Sylvian type that is thriving in south America, Daniel Melero. these people have a special charisma or energy that is seductive to others, and use this power inevitably to their own advantage, in the cases of RF, JH & maybe RS he might have met his match! they will probably never work together again. but then again this is only a theory. Best Wishes Marcos (aka the Mincer) KC fan since 71 when he was only 11... gosh! "Wetton is more macho than Sylvian" Laurie Anderson "Sylvian is prettier than Wetton" Prince ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 15:23:24 +1200 (NZST) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Tingles, Germans, and Ted White... >More tinglers 1) >* the main resolution in 'Little Red Riding Hood Hits The Road' (by Robert >Wyatt) just before the vocals start * the lyrics (yes, *lyrics*) to Robert >Wyatt's song 'Seasong' * the Mellotron 'chorus' intro to 'She Came >Shining' (by Pavlov's Dog) * the first thirty seconds of 'The Pandys Are >Coming' (by Killing Joke)... if we're talking tingles from mellotrons, I have to add in the whole of Greenslade's "Tide" (That track can reduce my spine to mush...), and the mellotron solo 3'45" into Yes's "And you and I". Other instruments and 'voices' do it too, of course - the twin flute interplay in Jethro Tull's "Reasons for waiting", the guitar intro from the Hollies "All I need is the air that I breathe", Fripp's guitar in Bowie's "Heroes", Eno's backing vocals from James's "Sometimes (Lester Piggott)", the seven chords that open the Largo from Dvorak's New World symphony, John Cale's "Buffalo Ballet", "Bright Red", by Laurie Anderson, the flanged guitar break from the Byrds' "Wasn't Born to follow", most of Brook & Ali Khan's "Night Song" album, "Song to the siren" (both This Mortal Coil's version and Tim Buckley's original)... the list is immense. >From: s craig stamm 2) >2) A friend of mine insists that the final voice that you hear toward the >end of Lark's Tongue Part 1 is speaking in German. He further insists that >this is no other than the voice of Hitler from some speech he made. If >this is true then it surely puts a further evil twist on this piece. >Analysis of the isolated voice(s) would be interesting. You've got three parts - a woman speaking english, which ISTR being mentioned as being from a film (although no-one could recall which one). Then the mysterious "German", and then some quiet muttered chanting from several voices in both speakers, which I've always taken to have been from crimso themselves. I'd love to know what it is... As to the "German", I've always heard it as being someone speaking in a strong Scottish accent and dialect - my ears seem to hear the phrase "shaking in their breechs" in it. Whether German or Scottish though, the voice doesn't sound much like recordings I've heard of Hitler. >3) Another friend of mine told me that the final tone recorded on Lark's >Tongue Part 2 is one of the lowest (yet audible) recordable tones >possible. Has anyone maxed out their subwoofer or overdriven their woofer >on that part of this tune (yeh, I know it fades out)? not nearly as low as some of the guitar "aerial fly-bys' at the end of Heavenly Music Corporation off (No Pussyfooting). Some of them come very close to dropping out of the audible spectrum. 3) >I must also give Ted White some credit for my infection. [...] Nice to run >into you again, Ted, here in ET. *THAT* Ted White??? A song I wrote last year mentions the title of one of his short stories! I hunted for the letters column you mentioned, but alas my Amazing and Fantastic collections are incomplete, and I couldn't find it. James ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 97 04:09:35 UT From: "Jonathan Korein" Subject: Analysis of Fripp's Guitar Style Please put this on the site. Please also put my TAB of Chasms. Hey - I just found out that "frippery" is an actual dictionary word meaning "cheap gaudy clothes". Analysis of Two of the Three Rather Unique Fripp Styles Someone said in a post that Fripp explored three styles which are fairly his own, which I will refer to as Crimsoid, Crafty and Frippertronics. I will talk a lot about the Crimsoid style, a little bit about the Crafty style, and a tiny tad anout Frippertronics. An Investigation of the "Crimsoid" Style The Crimsoid style, which slowly took form over the early Crimson albums and made its first appeared in full effect on "Lark's". Key to the Crimsoid sound are the 3rd and the flat-five/sharp-four, an unusual combination because of the dissonance of the latter and the general consonance of the former. However, the third can also possess a tinge of menace because its inversion is the flat-6/aug-5. Another important interval is the Flat-7/Sharp-6. It is the 3rd of the flat-five/sharp-four and the flat-five/sharp-four of the 3rd. Tricky, eh? An interesting note (no pun intended): the flat-5/sharp-4 is the only interval which is its own inversion. This allows convenient stacking, as in "Lark's 2": *--------------------------------------------- *---------------------------------------8----- *--------------------------------6------------ -----------6----5--------5------------------ -------5-------------4---------------------- ---3----------------------------------------- Other examples of the Crimsoid sound: >From "Red": *----------------------------------------------------- -3-1-3-1-3-1-3--1--3b(4)r3--1--------------- -3-1-3-1-3-1-3--1--3b(4)r3--1---------------- *------------------------------------------2----------- *----------------------------------------------------- *--------------------------------------------------0- ---3-- Is the flat-five and the flat-seven, which are a third apart! Drowning in Crimsoid! ---3-- ---1--- Is the third and the third of the third, which is actually sharp-five/flat-six. ---1--- The flat-six is not-so-key to the Crimson sound, but does surface occasionally - In Indiscipline, the verse chord is stacked 3rds, which means 1+3+flat-6: --------- --------- ---6---- ---7---- ---8---- --------- >From "OMRN": E:---0---4---6----0----4---6-----0----4----6----0- This is the ultimate example of full-forced crimsitude. 1-3-flat5. >From "Fracture": *-------------------------------------------------|---------------------------- --------------------| *-------------------------------------------------|---------------------------- --------------------| *-------------------------------------------------|---------------------------- --------------------| -5----------7----------5-----7-----5----7----|--5---------7-----------5------- --------------| ----6-4-6-----6-4-6----6-----6-----6----6-|-----6-4-6----6-4-6------6-4------- ---4-6-| *-------------------------------------------------|---------------------------- -------5-3-5-------| D:-5- is a 3rd. A:-6- is the root. D:-7- is a flat-five. A:-4- is a flat-seven. The four magic intervals! Notice the diamond shape they make on a guitar: ------f7------- ---3------f5- -------1-------- Also, the Crimsoid style LOVES 5/4. Lark's 1 and 2 are mostly in 5/4. Fracture is in 5 for most of the time. 7 is another biggie. Lark's 1 has parts in 7. So does Fracture and OMRN. Crafty Style This one I know less about, but I can present the basic principles I have noticed. The Crafty style is present on Discipline, Beat, ToaPP, all Crafty Guitarist albums, and a teeny-tiny bit on THRAK in places such as the B section of VROOOM. This style consists of repeating cycles of straight 8th notes (or 16ths, quarters, whatever, but straight and usually quarters or faster) in time signatures such as 5, 7, 9 or others - but usually not four. Harmonically, the lines seem to be a repeating cycle of notes from a scale. Rarely is a note played twice in a row in the same octave. There is usually at least one other guitar doing a different part which interlocks with the first one. It is also a repeating set of notes from the same scale as the first one and usually does not play a note twice in a row in the same octave. Sometimes it is the same riff but starting at a different time. Sometimes it is similar, but in a different time signature, thus creating skewed counterpoint, such as in Frame by Frame, which has Belew in 7 and Fripp in 13, and is also used in parts of the song Discipline and various other tracks from that period. Frippertronics (loopwork) The following is a cheap way to play loopwork which sounds reminiscent of early 80s Frippertronics. This was chiefly devised by my friend Colin, who occasionally posts under WrongWayCM at aol dot com and also tabbed Lark's 2 for the site, but I will add my two cents now and then. Necessary pedals: Delay, A/B box Highly recommended pedals: Chorus, Volume, Distortion (preferably fuzzy high-sustain type, such as the Big Muff) The more pedals, the merrier... Whammys, Wahs, etc. will add to your pallete of sounds, but the above list is the basics. Setup: All other pedals --> A/B box --> Delay --> Amp \ ^ \ | -------------------/ Set your delay to the longest delay and the maximum number of repeats. If possible, put on a chorus and a distortion like the one mentioned above so that you have lots of sustain. Have the A/B box switched so your going through the delay. Play a few very slow volume swells. Colin and I personally like to establish a key, so we would probably just play a lot of Es in various octaves. Then you can add other intervals to spice things up. I would a avoid the flat 2nd as well as major 7 for fairly obvious reasons. When you think you have a good foundation and you want to solo, simply switch the A/B box and you can solo over your foundation. If you want to, switch back and add more. I don't own an A/B box so I must say I have never tried this myself but it should work. I have played in the style of the above, just I would keep adding to the foundation, since I couldn't switch to the soloing mode. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 08:04:17 -0400 From: Sid Smith Subject: Is RF a sneaky bastard ? In Et 410 Michael Townsend makes some odd points whilst criticising RF for indulging in sophistry and being less than honest . A couple of observations Michael. I haven't experienced any other band which invites their fans to join them to listen to the latest release (Epitaph / Soundscapes and the forthcoming Night Watch playbacks). It cost you nothing (tickets to such events have been free to date) and there's no pressure to buy anything when you're there. Of course I understand that such events are done to promote product but this doesn't seem to be the primary reason. After all, we'd all probably buy the stuff without DGM going to all the trouble and expense of organising such things. So why do you think RF and DGM do it Michael ? Don't we exercise a bit of personal taste and trust when buying product ? I know quite a few KC fans who don't like the Soundscapes stuff and consequently don't buy it. Seems fair enough to me. I just don't buy the line that Fripp is somehow exploiting people by releasing material at a prolific rate. I recently purchased all four volumes of Epitaph without hearing a note of the music. Does that make me a gullible sucker or someone who has experienced and trusts the care and attention to detail which RF / DGM have applied to their previous releases ? I trust DGM (and I guess Fripp) because they've consistently taken care in the quality of the music and the packaging. More power to his elbow. We'll make a choice and buy what we think we want based In respect of seeing KC at the recent HORDE gigs in the States, I'm not certain why you would be disgusted at KC sharing a bill with several other bands of presumably differing musical styles. Of course, like you I'd prefer to see KC headlining their own gig but this mustn't have been financially or logistically possible or do you think they just couldn't be bothered ? Isn't some KC is better than no KC, Michael ? Economics and a degree of pragmatism. I'm afraid you can't have it both ways Michael. If Fripp is greedy or indeed, to use your words, a sneaky bastard, why not make a stand and boycott the release of The Night Watch which you criticise RF for so brazenly advertising in his recent message ? ------------------------------ From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Most Enjoyable Post of the Summer! Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 11:21:28 -0400 Sergei, your post suggesting mail-order SPIT merchandising in my mind goes down as one of the all time funniest posts I've seen in ET over a few years. Other contenders include the one about someone going backstage last year and having Fripp wip out a thick rolled wad of $100 bills, and another from a few years ago about the KC show where Fripp gets crazy and solos on his knees and then comes out dressed in tight red leather, hair all greased back and yells into the microphone "So, do ya wanna ROCK!!" What's you favorite? dk ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #411 ********************************