Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #410 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 410 Wednesday, 20 August 1997 Today's Topics: ET Logo Contest Thomas Moore? Gurdjieff? In the Court of the Crimson King.... THAT Ted White?! + Radiotronics other albums besides crimson Piss, tears, warmth... impossible productions Robert on PossProds Sonny Sharrock/Fripp, black & white Re: This and That; and some Questions re: Crimso lore re Demystifying Doctor Diamond RE: Larks' tongues on the turntable re: Lucid dreaming, esoterica Re: Lizard's tounge Re: Lark's Tongues on the turntable LTIA LP Thank you Robert for the explanation. Incredible Fripp post!!/Ball in Gauchos? Analysis of music/Fracture Re: letter from Robert Tom Tom Club & Bill Bruford The Night Watch, PP mail order Mellotron samples L. Rob Hubbard, race, & RED Thanks and Requests Re:Letter from Robert Re: Black Prog Rockers SPICE GIRLS VS TOYAH Robert's letter A great wit....... re: Letter from Robert Dear Mr. Fripp, With Love greedy old Fripp ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: "Daniel Kirkdorffer" Organization: SRDS Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:57:45 CST Subject: ET Logo Contest Hi All, Just got back from a very nice 16 day vacation to France and England, and as soon as I get my PC fixed at home I'll be sorting through email and updating ET Web. I'm hoping they'll be a few entries for the ET logo contest I announced in ET #400. In case you missed that, or forgot here's the gist of it again: The design parameters are only that it can be used as a web page image (Transparent background JPEG or GIF format). Otherwise the winning design will be determined by how appropriate and well it defines ET and what ET is all about and represents to its readers. The winning logo, to be chosen by Toby and myself, will be used on the ET Web site in a variety of places, including backgrounds, with appropriate attributions to the designer. Send all entries (as many as you wish) to me at DanKirkd at aol dot com, in ZIPped attachments please. Deadline for submission will be Aug 31st. BTW, when in England I passed through the lovely Wiltshire area and visited Salisbury and Stonehenge. Out of curiosity I paged through a local phone book and found an "E.T. Fripp" listed along with a number of other "Fripp"s. Unfortunately I didn't have time to inquire further. Toodles for now, Dan --- Daniel Kirkdorffer Internet Consultant, Zeal Inc. dank at zealinc dot com http://www.zealinc.com/ DanKirkd at aol dot com http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/ **Visual Cafe Tips: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/vcafe.htm ------------------------------ From: "Stephen P. Goodman" Subject: Thomas Moore? Gurdjieff? Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:44:54 -0700 In ET 406 Jason Thornton posted in response to: >> Second part of letter: It is interesting to me that someone would accuse >> Gurdjieff of being a con man.... > Agreed. I find it bizarre that someone would think that as well. > Gurdjieff is not a con man, no more so than the other great minds of our > century: L. Ron Hubbard, Starhawk, Thomas Moore, James Redfield, Deepak > Chopra, the guy who draws those adorable "I Love You This Much" comic > strips... I had to respond to this... Thomas Moore in the same area as Gurdjieff? Perhaps if you think of them both being philosophers of their time...! The rest of the so-called 'great minds' on the list above are HARDLY even in Gurdjieff's class. Late 20th-century populist pseudo-philosophic grave-robbing, is more like it. Many folks make the honest mistake of grouping Gurdjieff in with occultists and other 'alternative' (i.e. non-verifiable) belief structures because they've been TOLD to by the folks in charge of Your Libraries, folks. The time-honored Dewey Decimal System lists Gurdjieff in the Occult section, quite simply, thus rendering his writings (and those that came after his) to philosophical obscurity. This enabled more than enough of the folks in the list of 'great minds' above to shamelessly steal from his writings, on the conceptual level at least! Has anyone else lost count of the cults and alternative-belief hawkers who use the term Enneagram (spelling varies) in their 'Concept of the System', or whatever they're calling it this week? Jeez! It goes back, I think, to the comment made by Gurdjieff early on in his teachings, that "Psychiatrists have ruined Psychology just as Priests have ruined Religion." Insomuch as Modern Psychology As-We-Know-It was the emerging power in the scientific community at the time, Gurdjieff has been denigrated by this group for years, part of which resulted in the assignment to the occult section. When asked why there, so-called "experts" point to the Beelzebub writings on the basis of the name alone. The unknowing public, susceptible to experts still, continues to accept this on heresay alone. And modern would-be messiahs abound, each stealing from his concepts, mixing it in with other belief systems' elements, and calling it Their Own Original Answer To The World's Problems ("...and Yours folks!, just buy this Book, do as I say, and give me more of your money!") If I've gotten just one thing out of Gurdjieff that cannot be disputed, it's that we can never have ALL the answers while still in this fleshly state. Given that we don't have 100% of The Answers, we are ALWAYS potentially Dead Wrong. Including me as I type this. * Stephen Goodman It's the Loop Of The Week! And it's free! * EarthLight Productions http://www.earthlight.net/Studios ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:38:14 -0400 Subject: In the Court of the Crimson King.... From: shifty6 at juno dot com Hi, I just recently started to listen to King Crimson, and have been so impressed by their incredible musicianship. I have the Concise King Crimson and Larks' Tongues... I am currently looking for and have failed to find any copies of In the Court of the Crimson King available on CD... does anyone in the US know where i can get a copy? Thanks, Dave Shiflet [ Replies by private email only please, folks. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:10:28 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: THAT Ted White?! + Radiotronics First of all, it was written..... >I must also give Ted White some credit for my infection. You mean this Ted White is the very same? Although I find his rants against the preference for analog a little annoying, I too remember reading those magazines and even (I believe) some his of his own Si-Fi books ("Phoenix Prime"?). Glad to have you aboard, ya 'ol Geezer! Secondly, For those of you in the NYC vicinity, on August 30 9:00AM, I will be a guest DJ on the infamous WFMU (91.1) out of East Orange NJ. Amongst music I'll be playing, I will also attempt some "Radiotronics", and may ask listeners to dial up the studio and contribute a sample to the amalgam. (In case you missed my previous description of it, "Radiotronics" is a technique whereby the studio delay can deliberately be used by a listener with a radio and phone as a cut-rate Frippertronics (TM, Marcas Registradas) loop.) Identify yourself as an ET-contributor (or lurker) when you call. -Emory ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (grant colburn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:18:07 -0500 Subject: other albums besides crimson since finally getting on line and actually reading the numerous parts of elephant talk, i've noticed a big lack in albums, reviews and commentary on albums besides king crimson even though its the king crimson AND robert fripp site. where are reviews or even mentions of fripp albums besides EXPOSURE, let alone new solo releases, the fripp string quintet, guitar craft, 10 seconds, etc.? although i can appreciate the nostalgia of 20 year old albums, this seems to negate the concept of progressive music, especially NEW music. it seems that crimsonline has ceased to exist which is where many of these albums were acknowledged and talked about. don't get me wrong, i greatly appreciate the time and effort it takes to provide what you have, it just seems odd that there is almost no mention of guitar craft with fripp being the focus in the site's title. i think of this music as being essential pieces to the puzzle of fripp's musical personality. please if possible consider including more commentary on fripp music and related c.d's. i would especially like to know what's up with tony geballe's c.d. which was included as existing in the EPITATH album. thanks, maybe there is somewhere where this stuff is that i haven't found yet? GRANT COLBURN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:36:01 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Piss, tears, warmth... >Subject: letter from Robert > > 4. The problem began with Mike asking us to change our trading >policy, and break our trading agreement, in order that he might supply "a >few customers" of his own. We didn't do that, at least to Mike's >satisfaction. Then, he got pissy. Then, he got pissy in a public forum and >insulted PP staff, and misrepresented my published views. I'd just like to say that I really enjoyed hearing Robert Fripp use the word "pissy." ;) Otherwise, I hope this thread dies/gets killed soon. Then people wrote: >Nevertheless, I >couldn't refrain from shedding my tears of emotion, and when the boys >[ELP] struck up "The Great Gates Of Kiev" - I simply burst into tears. And: >I believe Lizard to be my favorite album of all time. Man, what am I doing on this list? >From: "Marc I Roemer" > > Some listeners probably prefer music as cold as their computers > over the warmth of Sylvian's aesthetic. I can't imagine the parameters of a warm/cold scale on which Sylvian would rank as "warm." I wonder if your record collection ignores rock 'n' roll and pop altogether. >From: Ted White > >Nor was Coltrane known for "jazz free form freakouts".... Well, true, but some of that later Impulse! stuff is fairly wild. Heard "Om," for instance? Or those "African Sessions" albums (I can't remember the exact titles)? I don't think those records are particularly successful, but they are quite a bit "freer" than anything from the more famous Giant Steps/My Favorite Things era. >EXPOSURE is Fripp's only "real" solo album, and I was very >disappointed in it in 1979. I like Exposure a lot -- more than most KC albums, to be honest. Actually, it relates to the "warmth" issue mentioned above (see the previous Rolling Stone Record Guide, which called Exposure "a remarkably human record"). But I'm just wondering why all those Frippertronics records aren't "real" solo albums? After all, he's the only musician! Not many records are that "solo".... >From: s craig stamm > >A friend of mine insists that the final voice that you hear toward the >end of Lark's Tongue Part 1 is speaking in German. He further insists that >this is no other than the voice of Hitler from some speech he made. If >this is true then it surely puts a further evil twist on this piece. >Analysis of the isolated voice(s) would be interesting. I second that. Who IS that voice, anyway?? Oh, and for those conducting demographic studies, rank me with those rascals who still maintain that the Lizard/Islands/Earthbound era is easily the least essential KC phase. I do like Lizard quite a bit more than Islands/Earthbound, however. Then again, perhaps Lizard should be grouped with ITCOTCK and ITWOPoseidon instead. Eb, proud to be born on the very day that Coltrane recorded his Live in Seattle album PS These confessions of songs that produce tingles are giving me the heebie-jeebies instead. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:39:59 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: impossible productions boy am I frustrated. I hate to send this after RF's lengthy post, but I just had a very frustrating conversation with the US office of Possible Productions. All I want to do is order Gates of Paradise Vol. 1. The nice lady at PP told me that it was unavailable in the US until Nov., when it may or may not be part of a boxed set, and may or may not be for sale individually. She then suggested that I might order it from Discipline records in England, despite the fact that at the DGM home page, we are instructed to place orders in the US through PP. I only have one question. Why can't I buy Gates of Paradise Vol. 1 in the US? Is there insufficient interest in the US? >sob< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 04:54:52 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: Robert on PossProds I enjoyed Robert Fripp's letter in ET#408, and would like to thank him for his clear and thorough explanation of the goings on re Possible Productions. His comments re Mike Spindloe's post were also most illuminating. For what it's worth, I have adopted a policy of ONLY buying DGM products from DGM-UK or PossProds. I can well believe Robert when he says that this mail-order operation is the lifeblood of the company, and I feel it is important for us KC/Fripp fans to support this operation. Because it we don't, then there'll be no more goodies like "THRaKaTTaK", "Epitaph", or the forthcoming "The Night Watch" (which I for one am eagerly looking forward to. Support your local small mobile unit, I say! And I was delighted to read that DGM will be re-releasing the Frejus '82 and Japan '84 KC videos! I was going to buy bootleg copies of these, now I won't have to and my $$ can go to the right recipients - the artists themselves. Thank you Robert and DGM. David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 18:57:17 -0400 (EDT) From: KRosser414 at aol dot com Subject: Sonny Sharrock/Fripp, black & white >Though I am not a musician and can not comment on technique, it is >my belief that Sonny Sharrock never took a guitar lesson in his life and >plays completely free-from, Guess again. Sonny was far from an 'idiot-savant' sort of player, even though that seems to be a common perception of him. > Another observation, is that I doubt >Sharrock really played in bands dominanted by white musicians Guess again (Herbie Mann's group, for one that springs immediately to mind with little effort) >and Fripp to my knowledge has never worked with anyone black Guess again (Narada Michael Walden, for one that springs immediately to mind with little effort) > This subject is probably old, but I wonder I >there are not many black progressive rock musicians. Because they were called 'fusion' musicians (such as David Sancious). Personally, I've always felt the ersatz distinction between the two was an invention of the considerably racist American music press in the 70's. I don't know what the perspective was like elsewhere. > Imagine Keith Jarret (I think he is black) Guess again. (Although I've read Jarrett has had his share of fun passing for black on occasion) > Billy Cobham in King Crimson. He worked with Peter Gabriel. Is that close enough? Ken R ------------------------------ From: Tom Ace Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:35:01 -0700 Subject: Re: This and That; and some Questions Christopher Carl Heckman wrote in ET 406: >No, a dim 2nd is not a unison. 2nds, 4ths, 5ths, and octaves are so-called >"perfect" intervals, and reducing them by one half-step results in the >"diminished" version of that interval; there is no such thing as a "minor >2nd". "Minor second" is a widely-used term for a semitone. Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ From: Tom Ace Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:35:24 -0700 Subject: re: Crimso lore s craig stamm wrote in ET 406: > 2) A friend of mine insists that the final voice that you hear toward the > end of Lark's Tongue Part 1 is speaking in German. He further insists that > this is no other than the voice of Hitler from some speech he made. If > this is true then it surely puts a further evil twist on this piece. > Analysis of the isolated voice(s) would be interesting. There's a single voice running for a while, then a bunch of voices running concurrently. Both sound reminiscent of German (the mulitple voices remind me at times of the word 'einundzwanzigste') but I've never been able to say for sure what they are. The best way I've found to isolate the voices is to listen to the difference (L-R) signal. Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ From: Tom Ace Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:35:58 -0700 Subject: re Demystifying Doctor Diamond Selinsky offered lyrics to Doctor Diamond in ET 406. I hear a number of lines differently, as noted here (with the caveat that these are just my guesses, and who knows if the lyrics varied with different performances): >The houses run along inside, = I shake your houses... > >Many who wear the memory, ledges of my name, = legend of my name > >I come upon the strange engine lights, = the station lights > >The loss in my life is her gain. = your loss is my eternal gain >Get your precious party in, = squeeze your precious body in >before I quickly close the door. >It will soon all be dark. = riding in the smoking car Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ From: Tom Ace Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:36:42 -0700 Subject: RE: Larks' tongues on the turntable Mike Dickson wrote in ET 406: >If you want to avoid that then avoid the Polydor reissues of the albums. >They were pressed on some of the worst vinyl you could imagine - the >sort that makes a floppy disk seem rigid. I bought Larks' Tongues (Polydor Deluxe 2302 061) around 1977, and it is not flimsy. It is of average thickness for an LP and has remained utterly unwarped to this day. The surface is a lot quieter than the US Atlantic SD7263 version I'd bought a few years before that. Many of Atlantic's pressings around that time were atrocious. The Polydor version also seems to have been mastered from an earlier generation tape (less tape hiss is in evidence). If Toby will permit a comment peripherally related to the LP/CD debate, it is well established that analog tapes degrade with time, even if they aren't played. Although LPs wear from play, they scarcely degrade at all when sitting on the shelf (and not subjected to extremes of temperature or humidity). Thus a CD mastered long after an LP's release will suffer from any degradation of the master tape, whereas an old LP has the advantage of having been made from a fresh source. How much this matters of course varies according to the type of tape, how it was stored, how many times it was played, etc. Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ From: Tom Ace Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 17:38:15 -0700 Subject: re: Lucid dreaming, esoterica In the recent message <199708181908.MAA18476@cruxyou wrote... james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) wrote in ET 406: >The first step on the road to lucid dreaming is keeping a dream diary. Over >time you become better able to recall your dreams. I have extracted a >couple of pieces of music from dreams that I have since been able to >record, one of which I ended up releasing on an album I put out last year. I agree, dream diaries are very worthwhile. To have more lucid dreams, I remind myself continually (during waking hours) to have them. I try to get in the habit of asking myself if I'm dreaming, even though the answer is obvious while awake. I want the habit to carry over into my dream life so that I'm more frequently aware that I'm dreaming and can take control. Another good idea is to have plans of what to do in your lucid dreams. It's useful to have questions in mind to pose to other characters in the dream. Ask them questions that puzzle you (like "why have I been feeling so _______ lately?"). My dream life became much more intricate once I started taking the antidepressant Effexor (venlafaxine). Other people have also reported wild dreams while taking this (prescription) drug. I don't encourage asking a doctor for some just for this purpose, but if you have good reason to start antidepressant therapy (and you like vivid dreams) you might consider Effexor. (I have no connection to the manufacturer of this product other than being a satisfied customer.) Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 20:38:33 +0000 From: "Charles M. Dawes" Subject: Re: Lizard's tounge Hey! Somebody else actually loves the Lizard album! Where have you been all my life? All elation aside, I can only agree with everything Adam said in his post in #407. Lizard is by far the most tastefully (pleasantly?) wierd item in my music collection, surpassing even The Dreaming, by Kate Bush. This is a very dominating album. The mood it sets is very melencholy, with a hint of horror. (Come to think of it, the preceeding 2 Crimson releases carry the same mood, but somehow it seems to me that Lizard is what Robert Fripp was shooting for on ITCotCK and ITWOP.) That's not to say it's mellow, because it isn't. It just has an unsettling feel to it. Not enough to frighten, but enough to get the imagination going. The artistic wierdness of this release suits Gordon Haskell's odd voice. I don't think he would sound very good singing anything else. ...and so, back to lurking. Hey, ho! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 21:20:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: Lark's Tongues on the turntable >From: "Gould, Steven (IBK)" >Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:42:41 -0400 >[...] Am I the only one who was disappointed that ITTTW and Moonchild >didn't make even 1 appearance on Epitaph? Well, the only performance I know of ITttW was on the Chesterfield Jazz Club. Too bad the mellotron was so bad they couldn't fix it. And did they ever even play Moonchild live? My understanding was that they didn't, since it was sort of a studio jam kinda piece. --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:22:35 -0400 (EDT) From: James Hannigan Subject: LTIA LP > Unfortunately, if you try to go for the origianls then either (a) it > will be expensive since they are pretty rare, and (b) it's likely to be > scratched to shreds by now. I don't think that's true, at least where I come from (NY). I bought a nice copy of LTIA with a promo sticker for about $15 a year or so ago. I've seen other copies of early pressings, none at high prices. > FWIW, LTiA is one of the albums I have grown to prefer on CD than vinyl. > (As against SaBB which still sounds better on the black stuff) I think ITCOTCK is better on vinyl as well. > For the few Sonic Youth fans on this list, and for anyone who enjoys the > adventurous skronking of ThrakAttack, I found a cybercast of a live SY show > from June 1997. It's an amazing show- they don't even sing a note until > about 45 minutes into the hour concert...it's all instrumental improv > ranging from the sublime to the frantic. They don't play a single song from How do you know there's only a few? There's a PBS show called Sessions at West 54th which features live bands, and they were on last week doing the sort of thing you're talking about. They have a new LP on their label SYR for this more experimental work. - Jim ------------------------------ From: bkwells at ibm dot net (Bruce Wells) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 23:35:41 -0400 Subject: Thank you Robert for the explanation. I for one would like the thank Mr. Fripp for taking the time to explain Poss. Prod. and what he has been working on recently. Since the recording of music is a part of the music, I always find it interesting to know the details behind the music, or in this case, behind the sales of the music. It sheds light on industry, or at least this part of the industry, and we know the industry affects the music. I also enjoy Mr. Fripp's writting and explanations, and wish they would be a regular part of ET. It helps to follow and understand the band, the therefore appreciate the band. I can't wait to hear the new material, as well as the old 70's stuff. Looks like I know what I will be getting for Christmas. One request Mr. Fripp, if possible, I would love the have another Vroom type "calling card". Nothing special needs to be done, just a plain sleeve and some burning music would make myself and my two year old daughter (a big fan) very happy. If not possible, I understand. One last thing. I started listening to KC in the late 70's, and I was so disappointed that I "missed" the band. Then the 80's version reformed, I made every attempt to see them as much as possible. Now that KC is back again (and very possibly in the finest form yet), I try to absorb as much as I can, because it won't last forever. Enjoy KC now and you won't be disappointed. A truly great band. Thanks Mr. Fripp for everything you have done. I LIKE IT! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 22:49:09 -0500 From: Eric Thorson Subject: Incredible Fripp post!!/Ball in Gauchos? I was amazed to see the content of ET 408. Robert's attention to the issue of our Possible Productions concerns was intelligent, compassionate, scrupulous, and hilarious! I posted recently about the stakes involved in Possible Productions, how it reflects on the integrity of Fripp's business philosphy. This post by Fripp has explained everything, and multiplied my sympathy for his cause. Thank you, Robert, for involving yourself in our conversation, and for making yourself a model of excellent public behaviour.Also, a recent post by Steve Ball credits him as being a member of the Gauchos. Is this true, Steve? Los Gauchos Alemanes? I love this group, though thier initial release was kind of short. I hope a future for them as bright as the career of CGT. Is the band still based in South America? Part of what intrigued me with the Gauchos was their Latin base. I wondered if they enjoyed much popularity in Argentina, and found it interesting that they play guitar craft style in a culture that has brought so much to the guitar. The "Sometimes God Hides" disc teased us with hints of a forthcoming release- will it happen? Viva los Gauchos!! P.S.- Any reviews of the "Santos Luminosos" group containing the same members? Eric J.Thorson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 01:16:23 -0500 From: Neal Brown Subject: Analysis of music/Fracture Did anybody else find Fripp's letter in 408 vastly amusing, or do I have a weird sense of humor? Somehow, I don't think Fripp adheres to the "I consume, therefore I am" philosophy. More importantly, I've seen some recent posts criticizing musical analysis of KC music. I realize that not everyone can understand that kind of thing, but I think it is sometimes interesting to hear snippets of that sort of thing. (Of course, ET is not really the proper forum for guitar tab, et cetera...that's what the web site is for.) And I know some folks don't really like hearing a good piece of music analyzed; for them, it ruins the magic of the work. I think that's a personal thing, because I really love knowing what sorts of weirdness the players are pulling out. Speaking of unique pieces, is "Fracture" written with only hexatonic scales, or what? Some parts, such as the quiet section at about 7:00 or so, seem more like they're chromatic rather than hexatonic...anybody know (or have a guess)? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:18:58 +1000 From: Marcel Glen Safier Subject: Re: letter from Robert Dear Bob Fripp (Team Master) I look forward to your next live performance because I hope to be there. You will be able to recognise me because I'll be wearing waterproof joggers. I shall do this for two reasons: 1. In case you should decide to move away as fast as your legs might dictate when I approach you to either: say hello/ask for your autograph/tell you how much or not the show sucked/draw comparison between KC and ELP. I might then have a fair chance of keeping pace with you. and/or 2. You should attempt to expel saliva onto my one of my toe bearing appendages. The again I might just talk drums with Bill and discuss the somewhat hideous but fascinating topic of all the bums he has played behind. The Lurker ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:25:04 -0800 From: Stephen Arthur Subject: Tom Tom Club & Bill Bruford Hi Elephanters, I was just listening to the first Tom Tom Club album, that most know Adrian Belew plays guitar on. I just realized that the track L'elephant features Adrian jamming throughout this track, the same he would on 'Elephant Talk' off Discipline. What a neat pun for a Tom Tom Club song. He also played on Remain in Light from the Talking Heads. What a productive period for Adrian. The only comparison I can gather, from any other other King Crimson personnal is when Bill Bruford played on both Close to the Edge with Yes and Larks Tongue in Aspic with King Crimson. Can anyone else top this? So one can go from: Peter Tosh to Bob Marley to Tom Tom Club to Adrian Belew to King Crimson What a leap! steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:10:07 -0400 From: Bob Gorry Subject: The Night Watch, PP mail order Looking forward to the release of "The Night Watch". If there was a previous mention of the release and playbacks I missed it. Can we get some more details from DGM about the London one and any planned for the states. I'd love to see a more civilised way than standing in line at a record store for hours. I was glad to see that Possible Productions is reviewing shipping/handling charges. I think that there should be a better formula to acknowledge the fact that as you have more product in one order, the shipping costs per item drop. An internet CD shop that I have used has a flat-fee per order ($3.50) that is waived for orders over $100. PP is cheaper for a single CD per order, but generally more expensive beyond that. I think its in the best interest of PP (and its customers) to make us feel better about spending more money on a single order. Bob Gorry rgorry at snet dot net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 11:13:33 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: Mellotron samples Hi ETers, Due to the overwhelming (to me, anyway) response to my Sample Page, (200 hits in a week!) I've added a set of four Mellotron Choir samples to my page. Not quite as nice as the Strings and Flute I started with, but useful nonetheless. As before, loop points included, .wav format. They're at: http://www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/oldsquire/17/index.html Enjoy! J. P. jprice at trentu dot ca http://ivory.trentu.ca/~jprice "aLSO THRaK ZaRaTHUSTRa" ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: L. Rob Hubbard, race, & RED Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 12:59:25 -0400 In 406 Jason Thornton sez "Gurdjieff is not a con man, no more so than the other great minds of our century: L. Ron Hubbard, [etc.]..." and from his occasionally flippant tone I'm not sure how seriously he meant that. But. L. Ron Hubbard was indeed one of the greatest con men of this century. He probably ranks with the man who created the Church of the Latter Day Saints; Scientology has major parallels with Mormonism. Neither is a genuine religion; Scientology was set up as one strictly for tax purposes. (A close friend of mine became a Scientologist in 1955, and I've followed the course of this group ever since. Further, as a professional in the science fiction field I had associations with Hubbard, who wrote a lot of s.f. and began his career - in the 30's - as a pulp hack.) Hubbard was a major prevaricator who lied about most of his life - from his "career" as an aviator to his WW2 service, including a supposed war-caused "death" which he came back from with Revelations that led to Dianetics and Scientology. All lies, all just the Big Con. And he liked other men's wives, too - another tie to the founding of the Mormons. In 407 Stephen Arthur thinks Keith Jarret is black. Funny; I always thought he was white. But it hardly matters as far as his music is concerned. As for Crimson having no black musicians, perhaps so. Again, I don't think race matters in this respect, and I seriously doubt racism has ever figured in Crimson. For what it's worth, Vernon Reid (of Living Color) opened for Crimson on their last tour here, and his music seemed entirely compatible with Crimson's. Finally, to amplify a bit on my post in 107, I've been relistening to RED, and it's pretty obvious that the first side is all that was ever recorded for the album. Side two opens with "Providence," an improvisation recorded in Providence, R.I., and concludes with "Starless," left over from the previous album. This gives the album a less-cohesive feel than that of most other KC albums of the 70's. It's also the only album on which both Ian and Mel Collins appear on saxophones. I am still reading and digesting Robert's long post in 408, but I'm enormously pleased to see it, since it's his first since I began reading ET. Thanks for listening to us and responding. And finally, my thanks to Doug Robillard for crediting me for turning him on to KC. I've received several direct responses from listeners to my 70's radio show, but Doug is the first reader of my s.f. magazines to mention that fact here. Everything comes full circle eventually, doesn't it? --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:09:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Thomas Andrews Subject: Thanks and Requests First if all I would like to thank Mr. Fripp for his dedication to us fans with his extra work put into the upcoming "Night Watch" live album, and the re-release of the two concert videos. Because I am grateful for what I being done, I hope that I am not being rude in asking if I am the only one who would like to see some live recordings from the 80's released in a Great Deceiver-like package. I never saw them perform and I think that they are the strongest band, musically speaking. -Art ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arthur Andrews ata5d at virginia dot edu "We're just better off lurking somewhere on the edge of the music business." -Tony Levin of King Crimson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 15:18:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Onthethree at aol dot com Subject: Re:Letter from Robert Hi, After reading the informative and often very funny "letter from Robert," I would just like to say "Thank You" to Robert and the staff at Possible Productions for their hard work and dedication to making the music available to us: the consumers and listening public. Obviously, it can't be easy to run a small, yet global record company or distribution service but since my first order 2 years ago, I have continued to be pleased, impressed with and thankful for their services. I'd also like to thank Robert for continuing to record, release and perform truly innovative and interesting music with Crimson and without. We can't all be happy with going to see the same bands each summer that perform "the hits," hoping to recover just a little bit of the glory and/or money that they acquired in the seventies. I know I am certainly not... -Jon incidentally, it is more cost-efficient to purchase DGM releases from Possible than from 90% of the retailers in the Boston area. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:57:14 -0700 (PDT) From: michael damian jeter Subject: Re: Black Prog Rockers >Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 14:51:27 -0800 >From: Stephen Arthur >Subject: > Robert Fripp & Sonny Sharrock; Kindred spirits? >> > >> >In reply, I would like to say that Sharrock and Fripp to me seem like they >> >have nothing in common, unless the final 'sound' is used as a measuring >> >stick. Though I am not a musician and can not comment on technique, it is >> >my belief that Sonny Sharrock never took a guitar lesson in his life and >> >plays completely free-from, while Fripp is so far away from that approach, >> >he started his own guitar school! Another observation, is that I doubt >> >Sharrock really played in bands dominanted by white musicians (certainly >> >not in rock anyway), and Fripp to my knowledge has never worked with anyone >> >black (definitely not in King Crimson!). So their 'similar' approach to >> >music comes from two completely different backgrounds. I would call Bill >> >Laswell a weak link to progressive rock, the relationship with Sharrock >> >probably had much more to do with Laswell's interest diversity than >> >Sharrock. Excellent team! This subject is probably old, but I wonder I >> >there are not many black progressive rock musicians. Are there any from >> >the 70's? With progressive rock's leaning towards jazz you would think >> >there might have been some great colaborations. Imagine Keith Jarret (I >> >think he is black) playing with Yes or Billy Cobham in King Crimson. >> > >> >steve Where to begin with this? so-called "Prog-Rock" as you define it, was/is a marriage of European "classical" music with acid-rock(a particular sub genre of rock, devoted to lengthy improvisations. For my money, very little of this has anything to do with American jazz(I also thought that Sabbath and Purple have more to do with American Jazz than "prog rock"). Jazz of the sixties was already moving toward more so-called "free-form" compositions. Be careful, however, when you assume that these musicians are un-schooled. A great many of them had and have conservatory backgrounds, and Ornette Coleman's music, for instance, has many rules, if you lsten to some of the musicians who have played with him, or read any of his own writings. Black Progressive Musicians--again, where to start? Maybe with Parliament Funkadelic, whose keyboardist, Bernie Worell, graduated Julliard, unlike, say, Rick Wakeman, who dropped out of the Royal Conservatory(I've actually come to respect Rick since he left Yes again, so I am not trying to slight RW)While bands like P-Funk did not blatantly quote European classics, certainly much of the music is just as complex as the so-called Proggers(just b/c you can dance to it does not mean it has no value--eg, Discipline, by a certain obscure dance band of the '80's;-). The Prog movement was primarily European musicians, so it is not surprising that they would try to blend European classics with rock. Likewise, with P-Funk, Living Colour, EW&F, one hears reference to older American, specifically, African American forms, including blues, ragtime and stride, and doo wop. Most of these musicians can reference European forms, but why should they? Such an approach simply considers the European aesthetic as some sort of supreme statement. I, a European-American, reject this outlook. Jarrett, Herbie, and Chick have all done European classical albums and concerts quite recently. And they all came from the House that Miles built. Speaking of which, while the majority of European prog sought to merge the harmonic and melodic content of music from Bach to some Stravinsky, with the rhythmic energy of rock, with a polite nod toward jazz, Miles' bands of the seventies were exploring Stockhausen(and this was not by accident. When Miles began the jazz-rock revolution, he was open about being influenced by Stockhausen and Hendrix, another master of tradition, who transformed tradition to radical aesthetic statement. And speaking of guitarists and Miles, from 74(?)-76, Miles' guitarist was Pete Cosey, about whom Greg Tate has written that through his knowledge of blues and African instruments, he has developed 22 different tuning systems for guitar, which means Robert "has a way to go."'(DownBeat, July/August, 1984) Black Prog Rock--Hendrix, P-Funk, E,W,&F, Miles Davis music of the seventies, Ornette Coleman's Prime Time music, Ronald Shannon Jackson, James "Blood" Ulmer, Living Colour--check it out, and free your mind. Michael Damian Jeter Department of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY Purpleheart Chapman Stick, #1139 Whatever you do, a teacher works harder than you do -- George Clinton, Central Park, NY, July 4, 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:13:33 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: SPICE GIRLS VS TOYAH Hello My Dear Fellow CrimHeads, Can't help but noticing all the comments on the Spice Girls as of late. Hmm. Well , if you ask for my opinion you Spice Heads ought to run out and pick up Toyahs latest Pheonix on Receiver (British Import)...after a couple of listens it's really very good. And a zillion times better then the SGs, if you like Euro Pop Dance Mix Trance music it's very enjoyable. (i have no idea what to call Toyahs type of music)Toyah is actually is a very creative singer and lyricist. I like her alot and have for many years, even preFripp. The music is not always great but that shouldn't stop you EuroPop people. For Heavens sake give Toyah a listen. Yeah i know, the SGs all have great gams. Bet Toyah does too, but we'd have to ask Bobby. No please i am not trying to start a SG vs Toyah war, ok? Love and Light, Gail ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Tue, 19 Aug 97 18:21:33 PST Subject: Robert's letter Hi all ETers and an especially big G'day to Robert. Robert, I was very pleased and amused to read your responses to Piotr Zlotkowski and Mike Spindloe. However I, personally, would not take their negatives at full face value and I doubt wether the rest of the ETers would either. It is somehow pleasing to know that you are out there lurking in ET land. I am very pleased to hear of the upcoming release of the "The Night Watch" and the videos "The Noise" and "Live In Japan". I hope these items become available on PAL in Australia. (If you need help with a mail order in Aus maybe I could help heh, heh). I'm still awaiting the release of the live CD set from the Discipline era band. The other thing is that I don't understand how freedom from like and dislike can be a freedom. Is this to imply that things that we dislike we may find that we like after some perserverance or vice versa? Please excuse my ignorance. The last thing is that I would dearly love to live up to responsibility as a participant as an audience member (or performer if you wish) as a King Crimson concert. But for me you will have to live up to your responsibilty as a touring artist/performer and bring the show to Australia. Has KC ever toured Aus? I don't think so. Kind Regards Mark Jordan Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 18:54:58 -0700 From: Fred Raimondi Subject: A great wit....... Robert Fripp wrote in ET# 408: > 6. It is unlikely that Peter need exchange even one KC concert for one of > ELP. This because, firstly, my knife throwing is unlikely to improve; secondly, > I doubt that I would ever spit on a Warsaw audience (although Peter's foot is a > fair target)........ I have to say that once you cut through all Robert's BS, you must admit that the guy has one hell of a wit. I wish he'd write a set of personal musings and views on his life in the music biz......I do believe it would be quite entertaining. Probably a good project for retirement.......... How about Robert replacing Andy Rooney? Cheers, Fred Raimondi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 20:12:20 -0600 (MDT) From: tpayne at rmi dot net (thomas payne) Subject: re: Letter from Robert RF: But ET is not the forum for a discussion of subtleties, or possibly even a forum for discussion. TP: Robert, please don't underestimate us, or overestimate this forum as a great molder of opinion. The newsletter is nevertheless quite useful and occasionally entertaining. (Thanks, Toby.) I suggest that very many of us are primarily "lurkers" (oh, God: "The Silent Majority?") who subscribe to ET for two reasons: (1) We enjoy knowing that there are thousands of others with whom we share an interest, some of whom occasionally feel the need to engage in banter/bicker about said interest in the manner of, God help us, sports fans. If we weren't already stimulated and/or satisfied audient-types, we probably wouldn't have subscribed in the first place. We understand that much of the discussion in ET is from the fringe. We find some of the postings to ET interesting if not always revelatory, but others to be, well, graffiti. You are correct in noting that graffiti is not a medium which lends itself to subtlety. (2) For informational purposes. Here in Southern Colorado, I would never have known about the G3 tour or the Epitaph playbacks if it weren't for ET. Thanks to your letter, I can disseminate the news about the upcoming releases to my non-subscribing friends. Thanks for continuing to contribute to ET, even if you are impatient with the forum. Rest assured that most of us can separate the wheat from the chaff. Thomas Payne Pueblo, Colorado tpayne at rmi dot net **************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 01:50:06 -0400 (EDT) From: ShiwaCT at aol dot com Subject: Dear Mr. Fripp, With Love Dear Mr. Fripp, I just want to strike a note of appreciation & enthusiasm, if that's not too square for our shared forum here in ET. I was aggravated(by Mike's carrying-on) & tickled(by your crisp repartee) to read through the whole exchange in ET #408. Sort of excruciating, altogether, but hey we're all in this together. Honestly, I don't know how folks get off slagging you like it's some bash against whatever. At the risk of everyone's discomfort, let me say that I am an unabashed 39 YO CrimHead from the days of ITCOTCK. At 16 YO, I was blessed to find myself in the third row at the sensational KC Central Park show July '74. Wollestone Skating Rink, Budweiser sponsered, Golden Earring had digestive problems, but we all got dosed with Starless & Bible BLACK. The red lights on BB were too too much :-). And that's good. I was touched and gladdened to learn from your Frame By Frame road diary that it was good for you, too. As a buddhist of 20 years, I appreciate your blackened stage presence. Cut the ego and get to the play. No BS. 3 Perfect Pairs = Double Trio... Someone once asked Kerouac what he thought was the single most expressive word in the English language? A pause, and Jack replied, "Wow". KC's music is essential, dynamic, and WOW. I have followed you all the way from ITCOTCK, ITWOP, Islands-->>Discipline-->>>THRAK, B'Boom & THRAK AttAck---Man, you(and those who are magnetized into the path of KC, like Mssrs. BB, Belew, Gunn et al) are just way TOO much. I love the whole catalogue & that is THAT. Maybe I'll get flamed as a dopey sycophant, what do I care, I love this music and am just waiting for the next batch. I guess I am just a fanosaur, somebody digging your bones. Loopey Central : Two weeks ago, I dreamed: It was pleasing indeed to discover Milan in mid-afternoon as sunny, as rosey & gold as that Merchant / Ivory film"Room With A View"(Helen B. Carter, Sean Bean etc). As I strolled through a public garden of brick, limpid fountains, and flowerbeds, I noticed a Guitarist in the distance playing acoustic to a small crowd that gathered from passersby. The music was familiar, so I moved toward its source. The sun's lighting was luminous & inviting. Within the discipline (tsultrim) of a dream, "Fracture" (a la "Live in Japan' 1984 backstage) yielded to Soundscapes and "A Show of Hands". Who else could it be, but you, Mr. Fripp? The image of your face was clear. During the break, I waited in the balance, knowing it was a dream, knowing that I did not wish to offend even your dream-self's sensibilities. A moment of opportunity arose. I gently shook your hand & quietly thanked you for Central Park '74 & Philly '96, mentioning that these were 2 of the peak nights of my life outside of the birth of my children. Your dream-self smiled the smile of a tender hearted soul. It was only a dream, but it sure felt good that I meant what I said, and you felt (dreamistically;-}) what it meant. AB et al are some lucky cats, they're living the dream of every true blue KC fan. Thanx for all these albums that I play the hell out of, From Epitaph to Thrang Thrang Gozinblux to VROOM and beyond! Best wishes for your health & happiness, Yours in the 3rd Row, John Crowe AKA John_C_Crowe at phila dot gov AKA ShiwaCT at aol dot com MUSIC QUOTE: "This really blew my mind--the fact that me, a long haired, overbearin' leaping gnome, could be the star of a Hollywoood movie. But there I was!" / Eric Burdon, WAR, "Spill the Wine" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 07:14:54 -0400 From: Michael Townsend Subject: greedy old Fripp In the dreaded ET #408, Fripp sardonically admits: > My personal character is so flawed and consumed with avaricious intent >that there is no surprise to learn that DGM, KC, PP, GC and other bright Fripp >wheezes are carefully constructed schemes to prise open the innocent hands of >completists, collectors and connoisseurs, even students, and seize from their >opened palms a clasp of their hard-earned pay. Sarcastic as this statement may be, it says, to me, more than I believe he intends. Because I do believe that beyond the lofty language of the DGM manifesto, there is a simple, unstated "aim," that behind the "drive to 1999" is a serious attempt to make as much moolah as possible prior to either the market or the performer petering out. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with such an aim, and I sincerely hope DGM is exactly as successful and he wants it to be. I don't think Fripp has an "avaricious intent," although I do think he's a sneaky bastard for lumping in his Guitar Craft work with his record business. I guess all I'm asking is that he says what he means instead of hiding behind thorny euphemisms like "to help the artists and staff of DGM achieve what they wish for themselves." In fact, I remember hearing him say it quite directly not long after I first joined ET two years ago - remember those .au soundbites illustrating Fripp's wisdom (he was giving some kind of lecture) on the web? For all I know they're still there. The one I'm referring to was where Fripp was asked what he wanted from his audience and he answered, with great jolly humor, something along the lines of "their money." Everybody had a good laugh, but I always thought he was being honest there. Then again, where do you draw the line? I was pretty disgusted when I saw KC open the HORDE festival last summer. An attempt to "reach a broader audience"? Why would Fripp want to do that when he complains how unfair it is that the performer is not able to choose his audient? The whole excercise seemed to be about low-overhead touring with a guaranteed revenue, plus a chance to pick up some more people - no matter what their audiential qualifications - who just might want to buy some of the recorded product. I think they call this "the music business." Speaking of business, why is it that the Fripp enterprise continues to be plagued by unscrupulous office managers and accountants? If there is indeed a drive to cash in, it seems to be motivated by a need to make up for all the money lost in the EG debacle. But how would I know? I don't even know if DGM is a profitable business, although the depth and quality of its catalog would indicate to me some positive level of success. It's the music I care about, the sensation. Yes, I'll be purchasing my copy of "The Night Watch" - so brazenly advertised in chapter 5 of Fripp's message - and I fully expect to get so much "tingle" from it, I'll have to change my underwear after each listening. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #410 ********************************