Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #409 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 409 Wednesday, 20 August 1997 Today's Topics: Tingles Fw: THE DOUBLE TRIO "Unpronounceable" legit release, 1971 Marquis and the Concertgebouw Grail View of RF's Re-releases/custom inlays/Garmarna Business idea for DGM The Second Creemy Triangle Out of the Aether I love you Bobby Problems with Sylvian... canadian retailer woes and fripp response tingles, tears and brain enhancement Sylvian vs. Belew Taste & Length tonal harmony Re: Eb Rush Be kind to Fripp Caves/new Discipline releases damage video wanted Steal another KC song for TV Does RF know spit from Shinola? elucidation, errata - these are words that start with an E Quiet Maria The color of music ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:07:25 -0400 From: John Roi Subject: Tingles Some of my favorite tinglers: 1. Holst's Planets 2. "One More Red Nightmare" takes me on a trip to the far reaches of the galaxy! 3. ELP Tarkus 4. "Between Blue & Me" from the 1971 Family album entitled "Fearless". John Wetton performed on this one. 5. The intro to "Indiscipline" on the B'Boom CD. 6. The early Tull music eg. "Locomotive Breath". 7. Pink Floyd "Echoes" John ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: Fw: THE DOUBLE TRIO Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:50:58 -0700 Before I become involved with my discussion and concerns about the "Double Trio", I need to correct an unessential statement I stated when I originally introduced myself a few weeks back. As I was confabulating during my exordium, I listed my favorite KC albums in order. I further mentioned that the ones being considered were strictly "studio" productions. Well, I made a boo boo (like you all even care :) ). I shall emendate myself here and change that statement. For now I state that my prior list consisting of my favorite KC albums is based upon the albums with "new material" as "Earthbbound" and "Vroom" are certainly live albums. Enough of that. Double Trio I ask? How in the world did Mr. Fripp come up with this? First off, which three members are in *each* trio? Moreover, on every KC CD, album, etc. that I possess with this so called double trio, they are ALL playing together. Hence I ask, why a double trio? Wouldn't it be more dispassionate to consider the six of them a sextet? Can we reasonably assume that this is due to two guitars, two drums, two bass? When an orchestra consists of more than one of the same instrument (ex: two percussionist), do we then create subdivisions such as this? What if Fripp wanted to hire a violinist, would he be forced into bringing *two* violin players into the band? Sorry that I'm so satiated with questions. :) Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 02:37:13 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: "Unpronounceable" legit release, 1971 Marquis and the Concertgebouw Grail Since I hadn't received a new ET since 405 (damn, they're slow to get over here!), I took a look on the web tonight and lo and behold found numbers 406-408. I have the following observations/suggestions to make: (From 406) > Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:32:31 -0400 > Subject: a question, two cents and boot praise.... > From: solidbond at juno dot com (Mike Pope) > Also, has anyone heard an '84 boot called "Unpronounceable"? It's > pretty good quality for a bootleg, and contains the best > > version of > "Indiscipline" I've yet heard......makes me very hungry for the > "official" 81-84 archival live set........ By now you've probably read (in ET 408) that Robert plans to have the 1984 "Live in Japan" video available by Christmas. You should run to get this... the LP "Unpronounceable" is mastered from a truncated MTV broadcast (I'm not kidding!) of this show - ironically, originally broadcast as a double feature with the Roxy Music 1982 Frejus show ("The High Road") for which the OTHER upcoming KC video issue, "The Noise," captures the ACTUAL opening act from the same venue on the same night. Follow that? Even if you have "Unpronounceable," what you're missing from this video is quite a number of tunes, including a fabulous Adrian / Bill tuned drum pad duet at the beginning of "Waiting Man." Plus you get to WATCH Bill play that amazing solo on "Indiscipline"... That said, I have to admit that "Unpronounceable" has the most fabulous cover of any boot of the period... it LOOKS like a part of the official triptych! (also from 406) > Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 21:16:45 -0700 > From: Robert Cervero > Subject: 1969 Trees, 1970 Birdman, & 1972 Zoom Club > Larks' Tongues on the Island (which is mainly the August 9 1971 > Marquee Club show) Could this be the same show from which "Weird Person's Guide to King Crimson" took the track "No. 1 Mr. Wonderful"? If so, I've got to track this down. "No. 1" is probably the oddest performance ever by the 1971 band... since it very clearly contains elements of "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part One" and "Lament." Given that I'd always assumed the 1972 Larks material sort of erupted by some form of musical parthenogenesis from Fripp's noggin, fully formed without a gestation period, it was stunning to find this example of the Boz band surfing the Wetton band's web. And I guess that also makes it a perfect discmate for the Croydon show you describe. I envy you your Asian trips, Rob! And finally... (from 408) > Date: 13 Aug 97 06:12:41 EDT > From: Discipline Global Mobile > Subject: letter from Robert "Kicking the Wasps' Nest" Fripp > David Singleton and I have gone back to the original 16-track tapes, > which were the basis for half of the "Starless and Bible > Black" album. > We have discarded our original plan to release the BBC Radio broadcast, > which was the source of the > extensive bootlegs of that concert, > following an arrangement between ourselves and Virgin. While this thrills me to no end, I would still beg a bit of clarification. Does this mean the upcoming release "The Night Watch" will include the live Amsterdam material released on "Starless and Bible Black" as well as the oft-bootlegged BBC program (due to said arrangement with Virgin), or will it simply repeat the BBC program in better sound quality? If the latter I'm happy but if the former it's a dream come true! I have wanted to hear the Concertgebouw concert complete for quite some time, as it seems that this night was truly one in which music bent down and took these four blokes into its confidence... Steve Smith ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 00:14:32 -0700 From: Herb Boardman Subject: View of RF's Organization: Ministry of Stacking Things on Top of One Another Greetings, all. Perhaps the Canadian vinyl retailer did utter a few unsavoury tidbits in his post, but I do feel he was being sincere, and not as intent on insulting anyone as Robert Fripp understood him to. (But he did, and this is unfortunate, as he seemed genuine.) Fripp's view intrigued/s me: > The first considerable freedom conferred by a craft training is > freedom from > like, or disliking the things we dislike, but that they no longer have > such a > compelling hold over us and our behaviour. It takes the sincere student > 12-14 > years of continuing practice to have a taste of that freedom. I question the "arbitrary-ness" of his numbers. I began piano lessons at 8 or 9, stopped at 13 or 14, began guitar (although wanted bass) about that same time, began bass (although wanted drums) 9 or so months later, and began drums (wanting such) about 9 months after that. My only "practicing" was done on piano, by force of parents, for 30 minutes per day. Guitar I dinked around on, for fun. Bass I took more seriously, but still for fun. Drums I took, and take, still more seriously, and still for fun. This is my approach to all three instuments to this day. No training; just for fun. It's been about 5 years now since I began drumming, and am in my third group. The first group was high school tom-foolery. Had fun, made money, singer died. Recorded mini-album, it sold well, and the drumming was favourly comparable to most happy fun music that makes lots of money and moves lots of units. This was after two years of fun non-practice on drums. Second group was post high-school tom-foolery with insipid lyrics and flakey characters. This is about when I started contemplating a life of music. This group seemed good enough to make "it", but the lyrics and characters drove me away. Drumming much better than first group, due to about one more years worth of fun non-practice. Much more adventurous and spirited and individual sounding, but quite sloppy. But somewhere between those two groups snaked in a recording session with the bass player from the two groups and a guitar player friend of his. After less than two hours of rehearsal, we recorded 4 songs. Even now, two years later, the drumming on two of the tracks simply confounds me. It is in a world class, well beyond my ability at that time, and still a hell of a challenge for me today. All this after 3 years of fun non-practice, about 20-30 minutes a day. At age 18. It was these sessions that cemented a decision which I still live by. ' Music is my purpose in life. And I won't settle for anything other than total, complete artistic freedom, free from outside influences.' This is where RF's view comes into play. I now relise this is an increasingly difficult modicum, what with the business aspect of music and all. This view comes with growing up, maturing. Enter my current group. (The name of which invoked many informative posts to ET and myself, and for which I am grateful.) The music is a nifty blend of credible creativity, adventurousness, and marketability. I am now able to tolerate, and even enjoy, some material that, before I grew up, would have been un-digestable. And it didn't take me 12-14 years of sincere craft training to reach this point. Only 5 years of smile-invoking non-practice. (With a year of no practice whatsoever thrown in the mix.) This is all under the assumption that Robert's definition of practice is a structured, purposeful attempt at improving ones technical facility and knowledge of their craft. (To wit: scales for guitarists, rudiments and independence for drummers.) This was never my aproach. I simply soloed, or played along with whatever I could hear in my head. (Close to the Edge was a favourite.) And it was horrible. The stuff neighbors hate and complain over. And I kept on. Eventually, things started falling into place, one after the other. After close study of my current playing, I've come to relise that a vast majority of trained drummers (and guitarists) have inferior technique to my own, even though I am not trained. It all simply fell into place after having so much innocent fun. So where does Robert's "law" (assuming he believes it) get its authority? It seems a bit contrived, although not without reason. He has been involved with music and musicians far longer than I've been alive. Am I an exception? Or is he being a bit general? After all, "All generalities are false, including this one." (Neil Peart) Just curious, Mike Holst Note to readers: This letter reads much more seriously than my own interest in this topic. It is just a curiosity. Music is far more important than issues such as these, and I don't for a minute question Robert's integity and knowledge. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:08:22 -0400 (EDT) From: skantere Subject: Re-releases/custom inlays/Garmarna Dear Friends, First of all, it's great to hear from Robert again! It's also great to hear that 3OaPP and Noise videos will be re-released! One other item from EG catalog I'd LOVE to see reissued is "The Lady Or The Tiger". Someone from this forum told me (I can't remember whether it was publicly or privately) that "apparently, Fripp is embarassed with this recording". Is it true? If yes, why? Another business idea for DGM: why not issue custom "collector's" inlays for a KC catalog? Possibly containing a photo or two from that period, maybe some recollections of making of the album, other commentaries, etc. I'd love to have an inlay for RED with lyrics... If reproducing the original album artwork would be a violation of something - fine, we already have these! I guess in most cases there must've been a few alternative versions of the artwork considered. What about putting the best of these on a custom inlay? I feel that "tingles" thread will be off limits soon. I didn't mean to participate in it, but last week I came across the album which, 3 seconds into it, has caused all my hair to stand on end, for 45 minutes flat. The album is by a Swedish group Garmarna, called "Gods Musicians". Basically, it's beautiful medieval ballads in heaviest, darkest, and most wicked interpretation I could ever imagine. Instruments include a hurdy-gurdy. I have never heard anything before that could convey the dark medieval atmosphere with such a stunning vitality. If any Swedish ETer would be willing to advise of any Swedish-only releases, or, better yet, videos, I'd much appreciate it. You can e-mail me privately. The only other US release I'm aware of is called "Vittrad", and I'm getting it as soon as I can. It's sad to hear about US DGM/PossProd scandal. Hope it's all over. We won't lose faith. All the very best, Sergei Kantere Moscow, Russia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:09:37 -0400 (EDT) From: skantere Subject: Business idea for DGM Dear Friends, Robert's apparent passion to spit on people's feet, which he repeatedly expressed in his latest post, has inspired me for another business idea for DGM. He can do this by mail-order!!! If Robert spits into an envelope, a faithful audient/enthusiast/fan can then promptly apply its contents either to his or her favorite footwear, or, ultimately, to the bare foot. These would be genuine Limited Edition items, unsuitable for mass production due to the inherent physiological limitations. There are several potential problems though: 1. Unauthorised use. For instance, you can always divide a generous spit in two or three parts and sell them as full blown spits (if one shares a spit with a friend or fellow enthusiast, I'd consider this forgivable, although not excusable). To cope with this problem we have to strictly define a spit quantitatively, either by weight or volume. It is also possible to come up with different editions like Small, Medium and Large; or Lite, Standard and Professional. 2. Bootlegging. I'm sure that certain industrious people will start picking up Robert's spits from Wiltshire sidewalks and sell them cheap. Apart from financial damage for Robert, this would severely profane the whole concept, because spitting is a conscious creative act, and as such, is performed with intention and on purpose. Even if bootleggers would've been willing to pay Robert royalties for the stolen spits, it won't make a sidewalk-targeted spit, well, feel as good and proper as the one *intended* to be applied to enthusiast's foot. In some rare occasions though (when no official spits from a particular period are available) DGM could still use the bootlegs. It will take all David Singleton's enormous talent and mastery to even find a trace of the spit on enthusiast's foot after years of wear, but after listening to Epitaph I'm confident that David can do miracles beyond this one. 3. Counterfeiting. Worse yet, I foresee that some fans Easy Money devotees might go further and sell other people's spits as Robert's. While getting a David Torn or Bill Laswell spit instead of Robert's won't be considered a complete waste of hard-earned pay by many in this forum, a spit from Michael Jackson or even David Sylvian may well be unwelcomed and cause allergic reactions with some enthusiasts. At least, I'd suggest NOT to apply the spit to bare foot unless you got it directly from DGM or PossProd. Probably they can come up with some holographic sticker to guarantee authenticity. 4. Customs issues. Being an organic matter, predictably a spit will be a very difficult item to export. Mike Spindloe, for example, might have a hell of a time fetching his free complimentary spit from Canadian Customs. They may consider it a perishable and demand that it comes in refrigerated container... Which is probably not entirely untrue... But that's a subtlety, and as we know now, ET is not the forum for a discussion of those. This list may be extended, but I'm sure that if one has an Aim (in this case, foot) all of these problems can be addressed. Lastly, one unrelated item. In his latest post Robert hinted that his knife throwing is unlikely to improve, although the context clearly suggested that he considers this skill valuable in certain circumstances, such as a live show in a Stalin-built venue. This stroke me as disturbingly non-Crafty approach! Probably, he should take lessons from the deadeye audient who has thrown a CD at him during the US tour. That would be a blistering example of turning a seeming disadvantage to one's advantage! The Disclaimer. This post is not a deliberate provocation, so should anyone take offence in it, they must hold themselves responsible for their reactions. My responsibility is limited to a) the fact that my English is not good enough; b) the possible incompatibility of my wretched Russian sense of humour to that of the rest of the world (I'd hate to learn that it's a case!). Love you all, Sergei Kantere Moscow, Russia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 11:26:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: The Second Creemy Triangle s craig stamm wrote: >5) I distinctly remember reading in Circus Rave Magazine (the "boy- >howdy" beer spoof magazine) a letter (circa 1974?) from Ted Nugent >slamming progressive rock and Fripp in general. In the letter Nugent >called Fripp a smackheaded fairy who "is not man enough to stand up >and play his guitar". It was the November 1974 issue of Creem, not Circus Raves, and the letter was not from Nugent. It was from a reader named Gary Velletri who was responding to Nugent's egotistical ravings in a previous issue, and fantasizing what Nugent would say about Fripp. Not very imaginative, either, as most of the comments were taken from things Nugent said in the real article about other guitarists. The imaginary exchange in full, sic passim: CREEM: What about Robert Fripp? Nugent: You put me on the same plateau as that asshole? He can't even keep in tune or stay in key; hits wrong notes. Anyway, I don't go for all that "drugged up" music. CREEM: Fripp plays "drugged up" music? Nugent: Well, he plays "music" anyhow. I can't even pick out a lick there's so much music. I'd crush him! CREEM: You'd crush Robert Fripp? Nugent: I'd crush the fucker. He's a tiny little guy.--can't be more than five feet tall. He *sits down* when he plays. Lazy bastard. If I even catch him sitting down at a gig I'll kick the stool right out from under him and then I'd take the legs and crush his face. I'd crush his teeth out. I'd smash his fairy mellotron, the faggot-brained fuzz-sox smack head! CREEM: Fripp's a smack head? Nugent: He bathes in it. Once again: NUGENT DIDN'T SAY ANY OF THIS STUFF--well, at least not about Fripp. *** Steven W. Sthole wrote: >Mark Jordan's comments about Crimson music being appropriated for films >remined me of a particulary horrid 'documentary' I saw back around '75 >or '76 called 'The Devil's Triangle'. It was supposed to be about the >mysterious happenings around the Bermuda Triangle and was probably made >with a budget of about $80.00. I recall wanting to see it because the >posters in the theater had a blurb, 'Music by King Crimson!'. Yep. They >cut out about 30 seconds worth of mellotron from 'The Wake of Poseidon' >and put it in different parts of the movie. Interesting: I saw part of a TV documentary on the Bermuda Triangle sometime in the early '80s--I think it was on PBS, but I could be wrong--and damned if they didn't also use a snippet of KC's "The Devil's Triangle" on the soundtrack! There was no credit shown for Crimson, though. Now if the band had been honest and titled that track "Mars," It would have shown up in space exploration documentaries instead... *** Christopher Carl Heckman wrote: >there is no such thing as a "minor 2nd". The _Oxford Dictionary Of Music_, G.T. Jones' _Music Theory_, and any other reputable source I can think of would beg to differ with you. The second is not a perfect interval; only unison, fourth, fifth and octave are termed "perfect." The other basic intervals, including the second, all exist in major and minor forms. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html Elephant shrew talk! Elephant shrew talk! RZZ-ZZ-ZZZ! ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Out of the Aether Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 12:15:06 -0400 In 405 Douglas Robillard raises an interesting point: the question of where musical ideas 'come from.' Do they come from "thin air," the "ether?" Do they have "a life and energy all their own?" I think the real answer is that they come, in such instances, from the creative unconscious mind. But the sense for a musician, is that they "arrive," unbidden, from somewhere else. I've felt this. My band, Barbara & The Bohemians, plays exclusively improvised pieces. Not jams - at their best, anyway - but improvised from beginning to end, based on some starting idea which may or may not be discussed in advance. Our best pieces, like "Spring Song," came spontaneously to us, fully realised as a melodic theme, requiring of us only that we play it out. The feeling is that I've "tapped into" something with its own identity that already exists. I think I first heard this idea expressed (in the 70's) by Eno, and it made immediate sense to me. I play saxes & keyboards. Within a year after Charles Mingus's death (in 1978), I was in a recording studio with a bassist and a drummer, both of whom were (and are) skilled and sensitive musicians. I told them what I wanted, and we laid down a searing basic track, over which I recorded several tenor sax lines and an alto sax lead. As we worked I realized what I was recording/creating was an homage to Mingus, a piece I ultimately titled "The Slow Mingus Shuffle/Goodbye." It has the feel of a funeral march with the release of the return trip, a la New Orleans' traditional jazz funeral marches & returns. It is unlike anything else I've ever done. I am certain it sprang from my unconscious mind, essentially full-blown, as a response to the death of a musician who had ranked at the top with me for more than twenty-five years. As I recorded it, I very definitely had the sense that it was coming to me "from the ether," if you will. It is moments like that which I find the most rewarding of all. (And I might add that it's not confined to music, although I think it's the most obvious in the spontaneity of music. I've written a number of books and I've had scenes come to me, unbidden, and "write themselves," on several occasions. It's a great feeling.) Such moments can also be humbling. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:37:58 +0100 From: "\Vrn Orrason" Organization: AMUSE ICELAND Subject: I love you Bobby Robert wrote " David Singleton and I have gone back to the original 16-track tapes, which were the basis for half of the "Starless and Bible Black" album. " I love you!!! > Further Discipline Archive news, in response to ET enquiries > regarding the two KC videos from the 1980s: on Wednesday 9th. July, under > the terms of the EG Settlement (finalised 15th. May) we collected the King > Crimson video masters for "The Noise" (Frejus, 1982) and "Live In Japan" > (1984) from my solicitor Richard Bray. We are planning to release these on > mail order in time for Christmas. ! I love you even more But I wonder why you want to waste time on a guy from Warsaw ? Ossi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 15:31:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher John Cole Subject: Problems with Sylvian... Hello one and all, I wanted to say a few things about this whole sylvian thread that has been going on. First I would like to cmment on Sylvians voice. For me at least, a large part of listening to Sylivan is the mood and surroundings taht I am in. There are times when the music and his voice are perfect for the moment, and I would want no other sounds to be in the area. Yet, on other ocassions I am terribyl embarassed to be listening to Sylvian and his voice does drive me crazy. I almost feel I am listening to some new age artist ramble on about stuff which he thinks is philosophical but which in reality is not. So, I think Sylvian is a definite mood and temporal form of music, you just have to be ready for the music. As for Fripp and Sylvian and Damage. I understood Fripp and Gunn being given credit on songs simply because of their musical imput, which is strong on the first day. I would agree sthat Damage is Fripp's interpretation of The First Day since it is live. As for something coming between Sylvian and Fripp from that whole collaboration, I am not sure baout this. What evidence is there? Because they have not worked together since doe nsot mean that they are broken off from working together. Both artists are busy and it is my understanding that it takes Sylvoian a long time to create material he is happy with. So, I don't think for my knowledge base that one can say the two artists are done working with one another. Lastly, I thikn that musically Sylvian is an excellent artist. I found the first day to be a little dragging and hard on my ear at times, but his other work is worthwhile. In particular I recomend his ambient works he did with Czuacky(?) called Plight and Premonition and Flux and Mutability. That is my two cents. Take care. Chris ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (grant colburn) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 16:04:44 -0500 Subject: canadian retailer woes and fripp response man, i am so sick of reading the writings of so called "fans" of robert fripp and king crimson complaining like THEY know exactly what fripp should do. being a member of a band attempting complete commercial freedom, i give robert fripp credit for surviving at all. at almost every turn robert thinks of music first and business second. how would the fans sell something like the robert fripp string quartet? to me this album wouldn't exist except for the couragious efforts of robert doing his own business his own way. (just like t.levin's cave album) this stuff wouldn't make it past an A&R listen in any artist's wildest dreams, and you complain because its more difficult to get than BON JOVI? you people call yourselves fans? you are the audio vampires that make robert fripp need go on sabatical! robert's label is a service to YOU, if you dont like it go back to ZZ top! my own complaints of finding new discipline music are only to retailers too afraid to stock non- commercial music. fripp and crimson are creating the new art music of the late 20th century. which brings me to the whiner about crimson vs. ELP. if you actually listened to real classical music you would realize the unoriginality of ELP. most of what they and YES do was done to death by 1000's of classical writers the world has never heard of. fripp and crimson are one of the few progressive voices who at least take inspiration from MODERN classical music (bartok, stravinsky etc.) why borrow from a style of music that the composers themselves have abandoned? the only reason to create music is to attempt to make it something that hasn't existed before. i never understand the attitude of writing a new song with the same chords and the same beat as what already exists. when i write music i feel i'm being commercial by actually going from a I chord to a IV chord! i dont want to hear ELP play old ELP or crimson play old crimson. that's what you buy 20 year old albums for. the old music never goes away, but the attitude of some fans does nothing but hinder the new music REAL fans crave. and mr. fripp if you ever read this, please know that some fans do actually GET IT and thanks for your efforts to explore music. grant colburn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 17:16:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Dixie Gene Ross Subject: tingles, tears and brain enhancement Heads of Crim, In the October 1996 issue of Discover magazine, " Powers of Creation" there is a good article by James Shreeve, "Music of the Hemispheres." The article demonstrates how music engages the entire brain. The tingle factor is addressed in a study by psychologist John Sloboda of the University of Keele, in England on a sample of 83 music listeners. The listeners were to name pieces that elicited physical sensations such as shivers, tears, or lumps in the throat. and to identify where in the piece the reaction occurred. Ninety percent reported having shivers down the spine and almost as many had felt a lump in the throat or been brought to tears or laughter. What is interesting is the musical devices that inspired these reactions were remarlably consistent. Shivers were provoked by unexpected musical events, such as sudden changes in key, harmony, or sound texture. Tears by repetitions of a melodic theme a step higher or lower than when the listener heard it first, as in Albinoni's Adagio for Strings. Mitch Waterman, a psychologist at the University of Leeds, in England found that listeners bring to the music all the complexity and idiosyncrasy of their own lives and personalities. A study in 1993 conducted at the University of California at Irvine by psychologist Frances Rauscher of the "Mozart effect" suggested that listening to any complex musical piece might enhance the brain's ability to perform abstract operations immediately afterward. For me listening to Fripp / King Crimson not only have I gotten the shivers ,cried and laughed but I get stimulated body mind and spirit. Following through in this energy I get motivated to work. Through the work my soul encreases. There is more to music than science can grasp. But trying to under stand more of the wonder of music we learn more about ourselves, and how to use music to better our lives. It is good medicine, no? later, Dick Ross ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 18:05:56 -0500 From: Eric Thorson Subject: Sylvian vs. Belew Here's a controversial view on David Sylvian- In comparing The First Day with THRAK, in many ways I feel that Fripp's recent work with David Sylvian is superior to the recent work with Crimson for the following reasons- 1) The First Day feels more modern, current, involved with our time. I would point to the use of dance rhythms, atmospherics, and noise. While all of these are present on THRAK, I would say that the Sylvian-Fripp record is more comfortable in this area. The current Crimson smacks much of Red metal retread. 2) The First Day seems much more easily improvisational. Most songs lead on into these long meditative fugues, reminiscent of what was great about the 70's Crimson, and something which the current Crimson has aimed at. Notice ThrakAttak was released later in the process, as the new band slowly begins to form its 6-way improvisational language. I would be willing to admit that the current Crimson has possibly set its sights higher than Sylvian/Fripp, and therefore takes longer to get there. 3) I would venture that the Sylvian band was a better vehicle for Robert's voice- The long atmospheric sections seemed perfect for soundscapes, which seem to be the majority of his solo focus. 4) I feel that Sylvian's lyrics cover a range of subject matter closer to what Fripp wishes to express- Note the theological/apocalyptic themes running through The First Day and compare the lyrics to such "creeds" as can be found in the "Redemption" piece and many of Fripp's recent album notes. Adrian contrasts Fripp, which may be necessary. Still, his cutesy absurdist lyrics sometimes obstruct Fripp's playing, in my view. I have considered that couching "People" between soundscapes that evoke a tuning radio was the only way to have the song on a Crimson record, distancing the ownership of the song from Crimson by portraying it as the work of another. Adrian doesn't enter the darkness well. He is also not as intellectual as Fripp and Sylvian. Eric Tamm spoke in his book on Fripp of a need within King Crimson for a charismatic "McCartney" to balance the harsher "Lennon" of Fripp. Perhaps this is true, but I have been excited whenever Fripp has teamed with singers like Peter Hammill and David Sylvian who seem darker, deeper, and closer in mood to what I hear coming out of that guitar. Eric J. Thorson ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Taste & Length Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:06:37 -0400 In 405 Barry Hecht asks me why I have all Bi Kyo Ran's CDs if I am disappointed in them. Well, Barry, obviously I hoped for better. There was something there - the Crimso influence - that appealed to me, and the music was far from TOTALLY disappointing. It just seemed to lack something subtle but important. I don't think, from your further comments on that group, that we're that far apart in our opinions. We both want more Crimsoid music than we're getting from KC itself, and we both value what alternatives there are elsewhere. Travis Hartnett argues with my statement that "No one is requiring bands to record CDs longer than they wish." "This isn't true," he says. He points out that recording contracts "have a definition of what constitutes an album, defined by a number of songs and/or a running time." Well, yes, but it hardly specifies any specific length, and is subject to negotiation, anyway. Record labels in the past have imposed MAXIMUMS on album length/number of songs, due to royalty/publishing considerations. (That's why US Beatles albums had only 11 songs, vs. 13 on their British counterparts.) "I remember when 'double albums' (usually containing around 65 minutes of music) were regarded as indulgences..." he adds. A 65-minute double-lp means sides averaging 16 minutes - very short. That would have required only two 10-inch lps. (I recall being very annoyed with the multiple-lp set of George Harrison's CONCERT FOR BANGLADESH, one side of which was VERY short. My memory suggests it was 10 minutes or less; the whole set could have been pressed on one less lp, for a savings to the customer and to the advantage of the putative charity....) In any case, not all double-lp sets were indulgences, and the question of which ones were is pretty subjective. Live concerts documented whole, for instance. When we get into this area, it could be argued that in some cases whole albums were indulgences/not worth releasing. I doubt that's something we want to pursue here. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ From: GRANTCO at webtv dot net (grant colburn) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:16:55 -0500 Subject: tonal harmony i've read a few attempts to explain functional tonal harmony terms lately. the person in 408 is right. the big thing average listeners and nonmusic reading musicians miss is that to understand harmony terms correctly you have to READ the music. there is a difference between a flat 6 and an augmented 5 but you can't HEAR it. it has to do with the key you are in and the context of where the piece has been and to where it is going. there are even such things as double flats and double sharps which would mean that a double sharped G is actually an A. (just like a C flat is actually a B) none of this will make any sense unless you READ music. (toby, if this is one theory lesson too many i'll understand. just trying to enlighten). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 16:04:22 -0700 (PDT) From: michael damian jeter Ryecatch wrote: > The name King Crimson is derived from Beelzebub... In adition to the above, which is all right on the $, I think it should also be mentioned that Blake spoke about the demonic not as evil, but that which breaks rules, esp. meaningless ones. Michael Damian Jeter Department of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY Purpleheart Chapman Stick, #1139 Whatever you do, a teacher works harder than you do -- George Clinton, Central Park, NY, July 4, 1996 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 22:48:12 -0400 (EDT) From: dumela at nicom dot com (tj) Subject: Re: Eb >From: Eb >Subject: Re: Sylvian > >To sum up: I hate Sylvian's voice. >I hate... >I hate... >I hate... >I'm indifferent... >I do not like... >Eb > I learned from Fripp that this says much more about Eb than Sylvian. Thus I conclude that Eb is stuffed full of hate or envisions suckering us into thinking he is. Either way we get nowhere. Do we know what Fripp thinks about Sylvian's voice, writing style and timing? Is it important to know his opinion? When another earthling earns my respect I seek her/his opinion. Call me a sucker (of lolipops). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 00:03:44 -0400 (EDT) From: EkimDwod at aol dot com Subject: Rush Dear ETers Please excuse my ignorance but I'd like to know why I keep seeing the band Rush mentioned in the same breath as King Crimson. I just fail to see any connection musically or any other way. Someone please ( try to ) convince me that that these two groups should be mentioned in the same breath or sentence at all. [ Please reply by private mail to Mike. I declare this is a "dead thread" for ET before it even starts! So no posts to ET about this topic please. -- Toby ] Thanks for the help Ignorant Mike Dowd EkimDwod at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 16:11:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Brooks A Rogers Subject: Be kind to Fripp Hello, ETers (and Mr. Fripp). I haven't posted anything on ET for a while but felt compelled after reading the "letter from Robert" in ET #408. For a long time now ETers have posted their thoughts and (rather passionate) feelings concerning Fripp, KC, PP, DGM, etc. rather freely and many times with the knowledge that Mr. Fripp might indeed be reading their gripes, criticisms, pleas, or raves. It's a very good thing to be passionate about an artform such as music and a band as unique as King Crimson, but alot of times I feel ETers take this free forum we have about the band for granted. The seemingly constant bitching about Fripp's behavior or what KC should have played at your concert etc. etc. sometimes makes me never want to read ET again (and I'm sure Fripp must feel the same from time to time). Maybe the band doesn't play the tunes you want or Fripp isn't as extroverted as you want him to be in concert but look at the things Fripp and this band do provide the fans with: The continual stream of DGM releases of KC past and present offer the KC fan so much quality Crimson recordings, both past and present, to enjoy. This is a band that has NEVER sold out or compromised its artistic integrity, it has always tried to reinvent itself and remain creative and experimental, can this be said of ELP or Yes or Genesis or even Gentle Giant or (submit name of prog-rock band here)? These aren't things to take for granted nor the fact that we have a public forum which Fripp actually reads and is interested in. We, as fans, should never expect Crimson to play certain songs for us, or Robert to be a certain way to his fans, the only way Crimson could be Crimson is if it is free of these outside pressures and requests and keeps its integrity intact. Also too, remember that Robert Fripp is a human being for Christ's sake and he reads this stuff. He doesn't need to be told that he's an asshole or that he's a god, he's neither, he's just an eccentric, highly creative and reclusive englishman who plays the guitar like a mofo and he's not going to sacrifice his artistic integrity to anyone or anything and thank god for that because otherwise Crimson just wouldn't be Crimson. ANYWAY!!! The point to all this rambling is let's just be a little more grateful for a great band like Crimson and let's not always so liberally burn Robert Fripp at the stake for being who he is instead of what some of us (apparently) want him or the band to be for us. Thank you, Brooks Rogers (six bass-guitar strings are better than four!!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 10:49:41 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: Caves/new Discipline releases Just got Tony Levin's new album "From the Caves of the Iron Mountain" the other day, and it's great! If you liked "World Diary" you won't be disappointed. It's different from WD, of course, because it's the same group of musicians throughout, but there are enough stylistic similarities to provide reference points. It's a binaural (artificial head) recording, which means that to get the full spatial effect you have to listen to it through headphones - then you really are "there"! It's the best use of this recording system I've yet heard. The playing is, of course, superb, and I particularly liked the Indian flutes. The music itself has a kind of spiritual, other-worldly quality to it, as if the musicians were tapping into some long-lost prehistoric time, the result perhaps of the location. It's a music that's very much a part of the surroundings in which it was recorded, as if the cave itself was a fourth member of the ensemble (or fifth, if you could Tchad Blake the engineer, which I think you must). And today I got in the mail an invite from DGM to attend another playback in London next month, this time featuring all the 1973 KC members (Richard palmer-James included), plus the two Tony's (Levin and Geballe). Well of course I'd love to be there, but as I live on the opposite side of the planet and my name is not J Paul Getty or the Sultan of Brunei, I'll have to pass. I eagerly await the pix/reports in ET. (BTW, the Discipline letterhead has some interesting job titles: Robert Fripp is listed as "Small Mobile Unit", and Julie O"Hanlon as "Present Moment Liaison", whatever that means.) The accompanying catalogue says that KC's "The Night Watch - Live at the Amsterdam Concertgebouw" is out in the UK on 13 September (via mail order from DGM at least). Needless to say, my order will be in the post shortly! There is a picture of the cover art in a new edition of the "Sometimes God Hides" catalogue booklet. It's an odd-looking affair: a man in some sort of uniform sitting at a table reading a book. On the table are a torch and a telephone - presumably he is a night-watchman. The office is all windows, through which can be seen a harbour scene with ships (as far as I can tell from the postage-stamp-sized illustration). Also in the office are two Anubis-like black dogs. I dunno, I think I'd have preferred the Rembrandt painting, or a starkly minimal design like "S&BB" was, but whatever... The accompanying blurb says in part: "The definitive live statement from the '73 Crimson, surpassing even the standards set on "The Great Deceiver". Other new goodies to note are: CDs: Tony Geballe - Native of the Rain Bruford/Towner/Gomez - If Summer Had Its Ghosts Robert Fripp - Pie Jesu (Soundscapes single, already mentioned in ET) Printed matter: Soundscapes posters (set of 3 signed by Robert) DGM Business Aims postcards (!) Epitaph Playback postcards and coming soon: 1988 Soundscapes calendar (paintings by John Miller) Soundscapes postcards So it looks like I'm about to be relieved of another great wad of money! David Maclennan ------------------------------ From: Martin van Wijk Subject: damage video wanted Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:09:33 +0200 (MET DST) Hi all, I'm looking for the Sylvian/Fripp video "Live in Japan 93 (94?)" Does anyone want to sell this or can anyone tell me were i can order it? Am also willing to pay for a good tape-to-tape or laserdisk-to-tape copy on VHS-video. [ Replies by private email only please -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 97 12:42:15 -0700 From: Frank Stephen Subject: (no subject) Dear Crimsonites, Have been a fan of KC since 1980 and enjoy all of there old material. Have had very little exposure to anything since 3oaPP. I need some help with the following: Of the new discs, Thrak, Thrakkattack, B-Boom, etc., which would be the best to start off buying. I can only buy one at a time and would like to get back into KC full time. All help is apprecitaed. Thanks, [ Replies by private email only please -- Toby ] Frank Stephen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:17:40 -0700 From: Julio Garcia Subject: Steal another KC song for TV Hey just saw this: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk wrote in ET-405: > I was watching a chinese version (with subtitles) of Bruce Lee - The > Big Boss and guess what was on the soundtrack. Larks Tongue's in Aspic > Pt1. Pink Floyd - Time and a Tangerine Dream track were also used in > the movie. I wonder if RF earned royalties for this. Does anybody else > know of strange occurences of KC music in films or TV. Oh I forgot, > there was an ad for a drink called Frutopia on TV in Aus and the music > was a rip off of Neal and Jack and Me (I think). Anyway someone must > have done something about this because it changed after a couple of > weeks. There's a Japan animated series (anime) series called The Slayers which rips off the violin riff from LTiA part1. It is so blatant that Fripp should seek legal action. Neil *---------------------------------------------------- Well here in Mexico i've seen some of this. On a comercial announcing movies Elephant talk was the background music. And in a TV show, intended for poor peoople to study, the song Sleepless, not once, twice, but three.The problem here is that if Someone wants to take legal accion the trial will take years, and if it only takes 3 months i prefer to see KC on Tour or making a Disc, or just..... on vacaccions. Wow, what a concert, Steve Vai Zappa's virtuoso was in Mexico and i went to see him.In my list of the best concert i think this will be the place: 1.King Crimson 2.Steve Vai 3.B.B King Well really Steve Vai didn't won to KC becouse i knew all on Kc. but on Vai's i just went to see him. SO after this experience i wanted to know if a G3 show is better than KC. or Vai. I heard Adrian Belew is on his way to Buenos Aires to do an acoustic concert, and remebering things i saw the pictures that Belew did with Borroughs. Well i hope i get some answer! Well that it for now! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 14:35:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Does RF know spit from Shinola? Robert Fripp wrote: >RF:I'd rather spit on your foot. ...and later: >I doubt that I would ever spit on a Warsaw audience (although Peter's >foot is a fair target) I now feel fortunate indeed to have conversed with Mr. Fripp twice, and on both occasions to have escaped with dry shoes. It was probably a very close call. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:35:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Ethan Taylor Sellers Subject: elucidation, errata - these are words that start with an E On Thu, 14 Aug 1997, Elephant Talk wrote: > From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) > Subject: The Tingles Are Coming > Organization: Elephant Talk > > More tinglers > * the Mellotron 'chorus' finale to 'Entangled' (by Genesis, which > arguably shows that even the right instrument in the wrong hands can > veer towards tingledom) "Wrong hands"? Tony Banks made better use of the Mellotron than quite a few, and he certainly had a strong combination of taste and chops in his playing. You may have been sidetracked by lamer Genesis of recent vintage, but I can assure you that (at least at the time of this recording) Tony Banks' digits were in no way "wrong". > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:59:05 -0400 > From: Christopher Carl Heckman > Subject: Re: This and That; and some Questions > > Arthur Thomas Andrews wrote: > > > Isn't a dim 2nd a 1st, which is actually unison? If my memory serves me, > > A half step interval is a minor 2nd. I could be wrong... > > No, a dim 2nd is not a unison. True, because it's a minor second, one half-step above the lower of the two notes - unless the note the semi-tone above the lower of the two notes cannot be construed as being in the key, in which case it is a diminished 2nd. Readers should understand that the names for intervals are not absolute, but dependent upon the context in which they are used. > 2nds, 4ths, 5ths, and octaves are so-called > "perfect" intervals, False. Fourths, and 5ths are the only perfect intervals. They can be augmented or diminished. > and reducing them by one half-step results in the > "diminished" version of that interval; there is no such thing as a "minor > 2nd". False. 2nds, 3rds, 6ths, and 7ths can all be either major or minor, in general. There are cases when a 6th is augmented, such as in some secondary dominant chords, which are a lesson for another time. Furthermore, a 2nd can be augmented, such as in the case of the harmonic minor scale A B C D E F G# A. The interval from F to G# is an augmented second, which is a forbidden melodic interval in the common practice era of western music, but is used quite often in heavy metal and in some Orientalist symphonic works in a flawed attempt to recreate Algerian (I believe) scalar relations. Schoenberg argues, as I recall, that the harmonic minor scale is not even a proper scale in tonal music, but rather the aggregate pitches found in music written in the relative minor of a key which raises the 7th degree of the scale to form a major third in the dominant chord and give a leading tone. I hope this helps. Ethan (who is in the process of reviewing his Harmony textbooks from college.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:39:56 -0700 From: spike Subject: Quiet Maria Hi there, While playing games with the refridgerator magnets, we came upon this, "quiet maria" (you know qua tari mei). so who is maria? Also, I love Sylvian (w/wo Fripp), especially Damage. Sylvian's voice touches the stem of my brain, I think because it is so low and sung in his regular breathing pattern. The vocals slip in and out of time, but if you listen to the mood, you can kind of hum along. I don't always understand the lyrics, so they become another instument, but there is always a feeling of hope in the dark moods. Love the rhythm, guitars, and feelings. If you're not sure which Sylvian to get, start with Damage (it really rocks(if you can find it)) and work your way back. Torn plays on most of Secrets of the Beehive. By the way, Darshan on Damage is so long, it has gotten me all the way home from LA to San Diego. take it easy, spike -Visualize whirled peas. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 11:49:02 -0700 From: Garry Garner Organization: Neputnya Design Subject: The color of music >This subject is probably old, but I wonder I >there are not many black progressive rock musicians. Are there any from >the 70's? With progressive rock's leaning towards jazz you would think >there might have been some great colaborations. Imagine Keith Jarret (I >think he is black) playing with Yes or Billy Cobham in King Crimson. My response to this is "What color is music in your world?". Maybe you should be asking the question "Why aren't there more white gangsta rappers?" Imagining Keith Jarrett (whatever color his skin might be, maybe today it's blue) playing with Yes is as preposterous as McCoy Tyner jamming with Metallica. Even the scenario of Jarrett & Cobham playing together makes little musical sense. Once again, categorization rears its hydra head. Why, in the 70's King Crimson was an opening act for Mahavishnu Orchestra. The drummer? Billy Cobham. The music? definitely NOT Jazz. Listen to THRAK. Then listen to Billy Cobham's "Spectrum" with Tommy Bolin (later of Deep Purple) on guitar. Now, which one of these recordings is prog rock, which one is prog jazz? Or is it Jazz-Rock? Stumped? Sorry, if you want catagories try playing Jeopardy! (Black-Prog-White-Jazz-Rock for $500 please, Alex!) G. Garner The Society for the Unilateral Cessation of Kategories (SUCK) ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #409 ********************************