Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #406 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 406 Tuesday, 12 August 1997 Today's Topics: OOPS A CORRECTION IS NEEDED Lucid dreaming, esoterica RE: New album? Larks' tongues on the turntable The Tingles Are Coming Sylvian yet again Re: FRIPPERY OCCULT TRICKS GURDJIEFF LONG LETTER (or "How I a question, two cents and boot praise.... Anime series steals Larks' Tongues Correction Trey Gunn Band and CGT on tour Fripp in Musician Magazine RE: Larks' tongues on the turntable Re: This and That; and some Questions Re: Sylvian oops pt 2 Crimso lore Re: Elephant Talk Digest #405 Starless tingles Re: KC Re-releases: audio-video Sonic Youth/Sylvian fans only Re:Fripp's aesthetics Re: More chills and KC in films Demystifying Doctor Diamond 1969 Trees, 1970 Birdman, & 1972 Zoom Club ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- ********************************************************************** TOP TIP: Send your posts *only* to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk. Posts sent to any other address will never make it to ET! ********************************************************************** Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:51:35 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: OOPS A CORRECTION IS NEEDED Dear ET, I need to make an an apolgy to Tim Rowe who first mentioned Fripps letter to him about the Wiccan warning. Oops. Sorry about not getting my facts right about the source. I'd be ticked if someone came along and gave credit to the wrong person about a letter Fripp had written to me...Tim was quite nice. and Steve E is wondering what and the hell I am talking about. Too many thoughts in this head of mine and my ETs in one place and the computer at a friends house. Not much of an excuse. Maybe next time I will talk about the music. BTW Posideon is my fave. Good fairys live, Gail (your crazy occult Auntie who can not spell and thinks too fast for her own good.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:19:21 +1200 (NZST) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Lucid dreaming, esoterica Michael Peters wrote: >>Someday I would like to get really good at the techniques =3D of "lucid >>dreaming" and see how much control I can get =3D over writing dream music. >I heard that this is how Richard D. James (aka Aphex Twin) produced some >of his music, especially 'Selected Ambient Works Vol. 2' which is very >dreamy and strange. He went through a long phase of sleep deprivation to >get to the point where he could control his lucid dreams. The first step on the road to lucid dreaming is keeping a dream diary. Over time you become better able to recall your dreams. I have extracted a couple of pieces of music from dreams that I have since been able to record, one of which I ended up releasing on an album I put out last year. It got a reasonable bit of local radio airplay and no, it sounds nothing like King Crimson! BTW - I am disappointed to see that some of the occult thread has suggested that occult=3Devil or occult=3Dsatanist. That's like saying (no offence intended to any group here) all Americans are Texans, or all athletes run marathons. The occult is a very wide and varied area of study, research, science (and pseudo-science). Like all doctrines, there are different approaches and different paths - just as Christians might follow any of a hundred different creeds , so occultists might follow any of a hundred different doctrines. And - although the exact stats would be difficult, if not impossible to verify - I would estimate that the number of occultists who worship satan would be somewhere in the region of about 1/1000. Many groups, for instance, see the earth itself, or its personification, as divine. Many more worship the same God as that of the Christians and Moslems, or see that God is a reflection of the self, rather than the other way around. In many ways, wiccans are MORE devoted to the Bible and the word of God than many Christian groups. One thing is for sure (other than the sheep not being a creature of the air, that is) - the occult is not something to dabble in lightly. It is not a game, and should not be regarded so. Similarly, the tools of the trade are only as good as their users. You cannot pick up a tarot pack and think "oh good, I'll read someone's fortune". The tool is only as good as the user, and the user must be trained, and must have some innate skill. Otherwise it would be like putting a bushman who has never seen a car in the driver's seat of a Mercedes and then blindfolding him, and expect him to drive you downtown. (with bless=E9d greetings to Auntie Gail!) James (who is busy designing his own Tarot deck...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:00:43 -0700 From: nsadler at mail dot apc dot net (Neil Sadler) Subject: RE: New album? >Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 20:39:57 -0700 >From:nsadler at apc dot net (Neil Sadler) > >J. P. Hovercraft/jprice at trentu dot ca wrote: > > >A friend at work subscribes to a music releases magazine called "Ice". This >includes new releases, re-releases, and bootlegs. > >A recent issue mentioned an album by a band called "Bladik". The >membership? Elton Dean (Soft Machine), Paul Rogers (Free), Keith Tippett >and Tony Levin, on the Cuneiform label. Anyone have any more info? Sounds >pretty interesting. All these guys are -really- good. Sorry to disappoint you, but these guys are from the British jazz scene. This Tony Levin is a drummer and Paul Rodgers (not the guy from 'Free') plays dbl.bass. Great acoustic improv. also featured (with Paul Dunmall - sax) as a band named 'Mujician' also on Cuneiform. Cheers, Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:06:30 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: Larks' tongues on the turntable Organization: Elephant Talk JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com wrote... > A) Nothing. If I happen to come across a good copy of 'Larks Tongues' this > weekend, then I will buy it. However. There is also a lot of bad vinyl > around,made in the 80's, that is thin and scratches very, very easily If you want to avoid that then avoid the Polydor reissues of the albums. They were pressed on some of the worst vinyl you could imagine - the sort that makes a floppy disk seem rigid. Unfortunately, if you try to go for the origianls then either (a) it will be expensive since they are pretty rare, and (b) it's likely to be scratched to shreds by now. FWIW, LTiA is one of the albums I have grown to prefer on CD than vinyl. (As against SaBB which still sounds better on the black stuff) Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 00:02:43 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: The Tingles Are Coming Organization: Elephant Talk More tinglers * the main resolution in 'Little Red Riding Hood Hits The Road' (by Robert Wyatt) just before the vocals start * the lyrics (yes, *lyrics*) to Robert Wyatt's song 'Seasong' * the Mellotron 'chorus' intro to 'She Came Shining' (by Pavlov's Dog) * the first thirty seconds of 'The Pandys Are Coming' (by Killing Joke) * the top-to-bottom piano run on 'Did You See Him Cry' (by Pavlov's Dog) * the organ section on 'Did You See Him Cry' (by Pavlov's Dog) * the Mellotron 'chorus' finale to 'Entangled' (by Genesis, which arguably shows that even the right instrument in the wrong hands can veer towards tingledom) * the Mellotron-soaked finale of 'Epitaph' (which actually made me weep the first time I heard it - it was like finally discovering the woman of your dreams after years of putting up with mediocrity) * the dramatic piano break in 'Aladdin Sane' (by Bowie) Yes, Pavlov's Dog - smelly old proggers par excellence - do it, not only twice in one song, but also very nearly at the start of one other and both of the songs are on the same album ('At The Sound Of The Bell') which is a pity, since the rest of the songs on that album are horrible. (William 'Have Drums, Will Travel' Bruford appears on this album, if it's any consequence) Something else I have just remembered - I gave myself the tingles once. Yes, this particular form of musical masturbation happened when I was at the helm of a rather bloody enormous organ situated in a (vacant) church in Ayrshire. The tingles came solely from me hitting one huge bass-pedal and every-stop-on-a-stalk A major. On analysing it, I gave myself the tingles because I realised I was getting tingles from doing something tremendous. A bit like having an orgasm because you are having an orgasm. (This is starting to sound a bit 'Jackie Collins' now, isn't it. Any moment now I'll be going on about having a 'shuddering climax' or something equally unlikely) So the tingle effect (as amended) can also read I WISH THAT WAS ME DOING THAT STUFF...GOOD LORD, IT ACTUALLY IS. Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 11:35:27 -0400 From: Jordan Subject: Sylvian yet again >I predict that someday, Fripp and Sylvian will work together again, no matter >what may have transpired between them. What *did* transpire between them? I suppose something so devastating to Sylvian that he couldn't bring himself to record any other albums after Damage and The First Day. Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 08:46:40 -0700 From: Jason Thornton Subject: Re: FRIPPERY OCCULT TRICKS GURDJIEFF LONG LETTER (or "How I WRNHAWK at aol dot com suggested: >[Fripp's] work on >himself and for others is a fine example of a lightworker. "Lightworker," shmightblurker. Too wimpy for my taste. I prefer, and advocate that each and every reader of E-Talk become, ShadowSLACKers! Praise Bob! Give me the Slack I deserve. >Please take Fripps advice when he says "Wicca is a hard road to follow." >(Thanks Chris J. for that )and to STAY AWAY from th Ouija Board!...[snip]...If you must >use a Talking Board , I can recomend 'The Psychic Circle Message Board' by >Zinner and Farber. Personally, I've been Etherically Channeling the Bright Astral Elemental Spirits of Capitalism via a Monopoly board (not the normal version, but the specialized version done for the college campus on which I work - The UCSD Edition). And, I must say, thanks to the Economic Angels of Partial Half-Light I've contacted, I've been making a killing on the US and Hong Kong stock markets. I tried a Ouija Board once, but the only discarnate entity I contacted was Paul McCartney, and he's still alive....or is he? In any case, talking boards are a pretty pansy form of divination. If it doesn't entail slicing open an innocent animal's gut and picking through the hot entrails for an accurate reading of WHAT WILL COME, it's not fortune-telling my friends. [snip] >Second part of letter: It is interesting to me that someone would accuse >Gurdjieff of being a con man.... Agreed. I find it bizarre that someone would think that as well. Gurdjieff is not a con man, no more so than the other great minds of our century: L. Ron Hubbard, Starhawk, Thomas Moore, James Redfield, Deepak Chopra, the guy who draws those adorable "I Love You This Much" comic strips... Well, that's enough McSpirituality for today. "Watch out Jim, they'll harmonically converge." -- Fish Karma The other J.R. "Bob," J.R. "Bob" Thornton signing off (and remember, Satan is your friend - or he'll lie to you and make you think he is, but in the long run, what really is the difference?) email is a form of psychokinesis. *-------------------------------------------------------------- Jason R. Thornton || Chapman Stick, Silver #2125 *-------------------------------------------------------------- "Only the few know the sweetness of the twisted apples." - Sherwood Anderson *-------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 23:32:31 -0400 Subject: a question, two cents and boot praise.... From: solidbond at juno dot com (Mike Pope) various and sundry thoughts...... In reference to the soundscape "2006" on the DGM sampler CD.........does anyone know where this comes from?? The planned second edition of 1999 hasn't happened as far as I am aware, and this is my favourite soundscape. As with most tracks on the sampler, i get the sense that the piece is longer in its original form as well. Contributing to the ever-popular favourite KC album question......i've heard a lot about "Lizard" and "Islands" lately......to my ears, these are the criminally uncelebrated pair from 69-74........but overall, i have to go with "Discipline"........which assaulted and commanded my tender 11-year-old ears in the beginning of '82..........leaned over and took me into its confidence etc, etc.........(I still go into aural seizure when the show-off prelude to "Elephant Talk" drops into the Stick theme....TL singlehandedly redefining the word "funk"....). Also, has anyone heard an '84 boot called "Unpronounceable"? It's pretty good quality for a bootleg, and contains the best version of "Indiscipline" I've yet heard......makes me very hungry for the "official" 81-84 archival live set........ any ruminations appreciated..... Mike @@XX ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:56:33 -0400 (EDT) From: NSmith1002 at aol dot com Subject: Anime series steals Larks' Tongues Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk wrote in ET-405: > I was watching a chinese version (with subtitles) of Bruce Lee - The > Big Boss and guess what was on the soundtrack. Larks Tongue's in Aspic > Pt1. Pink Floyd - Time and a Tangerine Dream track were also used in > the movie. I wonder if RF earned royalties for this. Does anybody else > know of strange occurences of KC music in films or TV. Oh I forgot, > there was an ad for a drink called Frutopia on TV in Aus and the music > was a rip off of Neal and Jack and Me (I think). Anyway someone must > have done something about this because it changed after a couple of > weeks. There's a Japan animated series (anime) series called The Slayers which rips off the violin riff from LTiA part1. It is so blatant that Fripp should seek legal action. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 14:11:24 -0500 From: Richard C Williams Organization: The United States of Amnesia Subject: Correction This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------56BC44807241 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a recent post, I wrote: > BTW, All Sharrock Fan's should check out ex-Television Guitarist >Richard Lloyd's new album w/Sharrock,Laswell, and Anton Fier. My apologies for this screw up. The album I referred to is by F. Robert Lloyd, NOT Richard Lloyd. Further info and a sound clip can be found at; http://www.apc.fr/discoeng.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 14:36:54 -0400 (EDT) From: PaulyRich at aol dot com Subject: Trey Gunn Band and CGT on tour Hello All, The Trey Gunn Band and the California Guitar Trio are still planning their tour of the West Coast (USA) for this coming October. We will likely begin the tour in Seattle during the 3rd or 4th week of Oct., and are planning to visit Vancouver, Portland, Eugene, Sacramento, San Francisco, Santa Cruz, Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, San Diego, and hopefully a few places in between. In my last post to ET, I invited people to suggest venues for this tour. I have received lots of great suggestions that we are taking into consideration. I would like to take this further and ask if there is anyone who has connections to small clubs or college venues (150-500seat) or knows local promoters who would be interested in bringing us in for concerts along our touring route, please email me directly: PaulyRich at aol dot com Hope to see you soon, Paul Richards ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 15:11:03 -0500 From: Chris Berg Subject: Fripp in Musician Magazine I haven't seen this posted yet. Fripp is in this month's Musician Magazine. It's a Private Lesson column. In it they discuss Fripp self criticisms in the Epitaph box set liner notes. Fripp goes on to discuss the finer points of doing nothing and how it relates to playing guitar, among other things. A good read! chris -- Remove the anti-spam "X" from the front of my email address to respond. ------------------------------ From: "Gould, Steven (IBK)" Subject: RE: Larks' tongues on the turntable Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:42:41 -0400 In 1983 (in the US) EG re-issued on vinyl all the KC studio LPs up to Red in a series called Editions EG they were half speed mastered, with a lined protective sleeve and Deluxe Packaging. SABB came in a parchment like matte finish, Lizard In an ultra glossy. They sounded great and were exceptionally clean compared to the Atlantic pressings. Am I the only one who was disappointed that ITTTW and Moonchild didn't make even 1 appearance on Epitaph? Also, what is the background on Travel Weary Capricorn? Does a studio version exist? Was it considered for ITCOTCK? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 17:59:05 -0400 From: Christopher Carl Heckman Subject: Re: This and That; and some Questions Arthur Thomas Andrews wrote: > Isn't a dim 2nd a 1st, which is actually unison? If my memory serves me, > A half step interval is a minor 2nd. I could be wrong... No, a dim 2nd is not a unison. 2nds, 4ths, 5ths, and octaves are so-called "perfect" intervals, and reducing them by one half-step results in the "diminished" version of that interval; there is no such thing as a "minor 2nd". And he also said something along the lines of "augmented 5th" when he meant (presumably) a diminished 5th. And now for some KC-related questions. (1) What DO the numbers on Thrakattak mean? Someone asked this last October, and as far as I could tell, no one responded (to Elephant Talk, anyway). (2) The KC logo: If you replace the horizontal bar with a vertical bar, you get the rune for money. Was the logo chosen with this transformation in mind? Or is it coincidence? (3) I own an analog guitar-synth (made sometime in the late 60s by Hammond and released with a guitar made by Ovation), and some of the sounds I get sound remarkably like on the _Red_ album, especially the bassline in the bridge of "Red". Did Fripp have access to this equipment? What all was used, in terms of equipment? These questions are on the order of "curiousity", not "earth- shattering", but it would be nice to know. -- Christopher Heckman, checkman at math dot gatech dot edu Internet: http://www.math.gatech.edu/~checkman "[I don't] think he should be turning the erosion pattern of the Himalayas into a flute quintet at this time." - Douglas Adams ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:16:50 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Sylvian >From: Josh Emery > >Considering that Damage resulted from a co-operative effort between >Sylvian, Fripp and Gunn as the project started out as the three of them >touring and working things out as they went along, I would like to know how >you define how much Sylvian input there is in any given piece. I would >say, if you like any of Damage, you like DS more than you are willing to >admit, his input is everywhere, as is Fripp's, as is Trey's. >In light of you're (quoted above) Sylvian comment this is very ironic as >"The First Day" is Sylvian's interpretation of their body of work and >"Damage" is Fripp's. Sounds like you consider Sylvian's input essential >and Fripp's optional. And I'd like to know how you define Damage as "Fripp's interpretation," considering that the album contains two (agonizing) songs written by Sylvian alone, one (agonizing) song written by Rain Tree Crow/Japan and two other (agonizing) Sylvian-dominated songs which are Sylvian/Fripp/Gunn-credited for reasons which remain a mystery ("Damage," "The First Day"). As for defining "input," easy. See above. At least three songs with zero Fripp songwriting input, and two others which Fripp "co-wrote" like Paul McCartney co-wrote "Give Peace a Chance." To sum up: I hate Sylvian's voice. I hate his shapeless, run-on sense of melody. I hate his inability to write anything resembling a hook. I hate his bloodless approach to recording/producing. I'm indifferent to his lyrics. I do not like him, Sam I Am. And by the way, I wasn't too big a fan of The First Day album either. If I ranked my favorite records of 1993, The First Day wouldn't even make the Top 40. And that's also due to Sylvian. Eb PS Who was it out there who was going to buy my Saqqara Dogs CD?? What happened to you? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 19:47:09 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: oops pt 2 Hello, Ok, Ok, so I can't tell the difference between Steve E, Chris J, and Tim R! I am really tempted to say that's cause all you guys look alike!(just kidding)...I do know you are different people. Only a small part of my brain can't get anything right at the moment. A zillion apologies to whomever. I am quite interested in this Golden Mean, ratio thing.This also has something to do w/ ratio and magic w/ the standing stones.And the vibrational dynamic of music I am sure, and crop circles and the way music is the vibration that makes time. Has anyone figured out if music is sex or dream or eat ? or all of the above and then some. Regards, Your scaterbrained AuntieGail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 19:59:46 -0400 From: s craig stamm Subject: Crimso lore Hello again fellow Crimheads, I see that the gentle nudging by our humble moderator has gotten ET out of several "funks" and back into the Crimson vein again (Digest #405). Thus, I would like to share some friendly Crimso hearsay and observations that may be of interest to those of you out there: 1) I remember reading somewhere that Fripp and Bruford originally met on a chance encounter as a result of Robert leaving the gas cap on top of his car after refueling. The gas cap apparently fell off his car near Bruford's house, and Bruford observing this mishap took the cap to Robert--an unknown neighbor at the time. They then began discussing their occupations and one thing lead to another... 2) A friend of mine insists that the final voice that you hear toward the end of Lark's Tongue Part 1 is speaking in German. He further insists that this is no other than the voice of Hitler from some speech he made. If this is true then it surely puts a further evil twist on this piece. Analysis of the isolated voice(s) would be interesting. 3) Another friend of mine told me that the final tone recorded on Lark's Tongue Part 2 is one of the lowest (yet audible) recordable tones possible. Has anyone maxed out their subwoofer or overdriven their woofer on that part of this tune (yeh, I know it fades out)? 4) The recent flourish of posts talking about "the tingles" experienced in listening to Crimso (and other groups) is of no surprise to me. I get them too with certain passages--especially on "Starless", "The Sheltering Sky" and "Exiles". Rumor has it (and again I read this somewhere--Melody Maker in the 70's?) that the 1972-1974 band improvs were often performed while closely observing the reactions of the crowd. Certain tonal structures could actually start people fighting or displaying other extreme emotional behaviors. It has been said that the band had to actually back off from experimenting with certain sounds due to their dire effects. One such concert mentioned at the time was none other than the performance at the Concertgebouw, Amsterdam (11/23/73) which produced the beautiful piece "Trio". Has anyone noticed that "The Great Deceiver" from SaBB really agitates the heck out of female listeners in particular? Perhaps some of the tonal structures trigger "fight or flee" reactions that are well-documented by biologists (or maybe it's just me). Obviously, police often use "irritating" music and noise over loudspeakers as a psychological tool. 5) I distinctly remember reading in Circus Rave Magazine (the "boy-howdy" beer spoof magazine) a letter (circa 1974?) from Ted Nugent slamming progressive rock and Fripp in general. In the letter Nugent called Fripp a smackheaded fairy who "is not man enough to stand up and play his guitar". He went on to say that he would break Fripp's stool, kick his ass, and smash his fairy mellotron if they ever met. Really guys this is not hearsay--I read this!! What a display of savage ignorance. The only debate in my mind is whether the letter was really from Nugent, but given his stance on several subjects and his involvement with the magazine at that time I took it to be authentic (or at least as authentic as John Popper's recent letter to Rolling Stone). 6) Did you know that "The Sheltering Sky" is a children's book that draws from African folklore? It's been a while since I've read it to my kids (they've grown), but I remember it to be fun and nicely illustrated. 7) Did you ever noticed Bruford's love of things yellow? Is this why the cover to "Three of a Perfect Pair" is of the yellow tone that he so loves to wear? OK, enough lore and hearsay for now. I hope I haven't offended anyone, but these were a few things I wanted to get off my chest (I have more if you'd like). Also, I would like to appeal to the silent readers out there--take a chance! John Nyman did and I was really touched by his recent post. Also, you may discover some good souls out there who would rather post you directly than be subjected to potential ridicule. Best Wishes, Craig ------------------------------ From: oracular at webtv dot net (David Denis) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 02:19:04 -0400 Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #405 Funny that you mention the subconscious.Two nights ago i also had a Crimson dream. I was in a recording studio with Fripp and Belew.We were listening to some new Crimson tracks and Fripp asked if I could add a track.Of coarse i agreed. I'm sure this was triggered by the latest ET posts. What a great dream. Dreams are just a short story to entertain and inform us of who we are. ------------------------------ From: "Matt George" Subject: Starless tingles Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 00:44:42 -0700 > Regards the 'Starless Tingles'; this phenomenon has long been > a subject of interest for me, even from a pragmatic point of view. >Who else got chills when hearing the Pittsburgh version of "Starless" from >The Great Deceiver and realizing that the UK song "Caesar's Palace Blues" >contained a 'lost' verse from Starless I found the Providence version to be more "tingling", particularly during the interval just following the ostinato and just before Cross hits the keyboard for his "blast into the cosmos" solo. Bruford "rolls" the snare up and down the spine strategically @ this point for about 3 breathless seconds. However, I must say that the Pittsburgh version is less constrained than the former version. Matt George "The intellect strikes up the tune, and the will must dance to it...." --|| Schopenhauer bmgeorge at pacbell dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 09:23:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: KC Re-releases: audio-video On Wed, 06 Aug 1997 Robert Cervero wrote: >The comment was made a few posts ago that all the Muir-era audience >recordings are "wretched", thus the idea of releasing live materials of >the five-piece Crimson ensemble should be deep sixed. While the Nov. 25 >1972 Oxford UK show and Dec. 15 1972 Portsmouth shows are indeed >horrendous recordings, the Oct. 17 1972 Bremen show (Beat Club, TV) is a >masterful performance, and the sound quality is as good as anything on >the 4-CD Epitaph release. Muir's percussions are hypnotic, both in audio >and on cellulose (i.e., the Beat Club video of Lark's Tongue Part 1). >The No Pussyfooting boot (which, by the way, is even for sale on the >Internet) has the complete Bremen show. DGM should release this show, >pronto....it really needs to become part of Crimson's illustrious >"official" archives. If this is true, perhaps DGM doesn't have the show on tape. A while back, Fripp said that if anyone had recordings that they think should be put onto CD, to send them in, no questions asked. I would dearly like to see something from this short era. >In addition to a ripping version of Doctor D, the Bremen show offers the >bonus of a powerful rendition of Easy Money that segues into an >instrumental that is unmistakenably the precursor to Fallen Angel. I have heard these from the poor recordings you mentioned above. It'd be great to hear these in good quality! > From what I've heard, the next DGM re-release of early Crimson that's in >store is from the 1981-84 era, because there's more recordings from that >era that, according to DGM folks, are "ready to go". With Live in Frejus >and KC in Japan long available on video and volumes of audience >recordings of the 81-84 band floating around, I must confess to being >less than enthused about this prospect. Here is where you and I differ. The two videos you mentioned are no longer in print. They are not easy to find, therefore. As for the audience recordings, I thought that _The Great Deceiver_ was made to curtail bootlegs. A boxed set of the 80s Crimso might do just that. >Besides the Beat Club release, I'd much rather have a Great >Deceiver/Epitaph-type compilation from the Boz-Collins era (the >March 27 '72 show at the Boston Orpheum was one of Crimson's best ever; >how these guys were able to follow up Earthbound with that show >baffles.). While one can pick up all of this stuff through boots, given >the high standards set with Great Deceiver and Epitaph box sets, I'd >rather have an official re-release that helps, in however small way, >enrich the performers, and that provides a colorful booklet of >memorabilia to boot. Well, Fripp had said that "Earthbound II" was in the works. Whether or not this will happen any time soon is up to Fripp & DGM. So what do we know now? The following are releases soon to come out: Earthbound-era Amsterdam 1973 80s era and requests are coming in for the Muir era as well. Perhpaps DGM could run a survey to find out what Crimso fans want to have released first. Perhaps. --Jeremy ------------------------------ From: access1 at earthlink dot net Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 11:21:42 -0700 Subject: Sonic Youth/Sylvian fans only For the few Sonic Youth fans on this list, and for anyone who enjoys the adventurous skronking of ThrakAttack, I found a cybercast of a live SY show from June 1997. It's an amazing show- they don't even sing a note until about 45 minutes into the hour concert...it's all instrumental improv ranging from the sublime to the frantic. They don't play a single song from any of their albums the entire show. It can be found at http://sonicnet.com/ .It's like ThrakAttack for punks. I sat mesmerized in front of my computer for the whole hour. Also, I love David Sylvian! Have since the early '80s. The reasons have already been hashed out enough. The man has virtually willed himself from a seedy English glam band into the rarified stratosphere of the likes of Fripp, Eno, Bowie, Ferry, etc. Now if only he'd release a new album already! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 12:57:05 -0400 From: Andy McClelland Subject: Re:Fripp's aesthetics > Doug Robillard wrote: > I may be mistaken, but I suspect some relationship between Fripp's > aesthetic ideas and the Platonic concept of "ideal forms." There are > also > elements of eastern philosophy in his aesthetic principles. What do > ET's > readers think? Any insights into Fripp's philosophy? I don't know a *whole* lot about Plato's aesthetics, but I do know that his Theory of Forms was based on the idea that humans do not posess the ability to see the Truth (about anything, not just about music). The Truth manifest itself as a perfect Form, hence: theory of the forms. Everything from an individual to a city-state has a Form (and art, ie music, by extension). Humans, who cannot reach this ideal form, must strive to come as close to this perfect Form as they can. From what I know about Fripp's opinions in general, I don't think he would agree with that. Fripp felt, from what I have gleaned, that inspiration came to him in an abstract manner, not as a striving towards a perfect example (form). In any event.......... There is a main discrepancy between Plato's and Fripp's philosophy. Plato believed that art was only usefull as a means to educate and groom model citizens in what can be loosely (and maybe not so loosely) to a socialist state. He felt that poetry was only good for teaching history and implanting the right morals into students heads. He felt most poets, Homer among them, were useless because there was no one to ensure that their facts were straight or that their ideas were beneficial to the republic. As for music, Plato felt there were certain modes that bred bravery and honor in individuals (Dorian and Phrygian). Those modes were to be the only ones used. He rejected all other explorations of musical modes (namely: Ionian and Lydian). Regardless of the details, the point is that there were very strick rules and restrictions as far as art/music was concerned. The is obviously not the philosophy of a "progressive" musician like Fripp who strives to explore new musical frontiers. Class dismissed. There'll be a quiz later. Out Andy McClelland ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 19:26:55 -0600 From: "Steven W. Sthole" Subject: Re: More chills and KC in films Mark Jordan's comments about Crimson music being appropriated for films remined me of a particulary horrid 'documentary' I saw back around '75 or '76 called 'The Devil's Triangle'. It was supposed to be about the mysterious happenings around the Bermuda Triangle and was probably made with a budget of about $80.00. I recall wanting to see it because the posters in the theater had a blurb, 'Music by King Crimson!'. Yep. They cut out about 30 seconds worth of mellotron from 'The Wake of Poseidon' and put it in different parts of the movie. Robert should have sued (perhaps he did). The recent thread about getting 'the chills' from Starless makes me know I'm not alone. That crescendo with the mellotron has always moved me to that strange, powerful, emotional response. Others that have produced a like-wise effect: 1). the 'bridge' between 'Talking Drum' and 'LTIA Pt. II' 2). Fripps solo in 'Prince Rupert's Lament' 3). The quiet, almost inaudible mellotron at the end of 'A Sailor's Tale' 4). Practically all of 'The Sheltering Sky' Those chills keep making me come back for more. ************************************************************** * (peace) * * Steven W. Sthole, mailto:sws1 at eazy dot net * * * * * * Check it out! Twin Peaks, 101 Guitar Tunings, Full Metal * * Jacket, the Greatest Band In The Universe and more at: * * http://www.eazy.net/sws1/ * * * ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 22:43:25 +0300 From: Selinsky Organization: AT&T Subject: Demystifying Doctor Diamond I'm sure I am not the only one who can't get the lyrics from "Doctor Diamond", a song I love to tears. I have tried to the best of my ability to decript the lyrics, which took some time. As I am an American, some of the British use of volcabulary and pronunciations may illude me, so I can't quite get the whole picture. If someone else figured them out, or has the official Palmer-James lyrics available, kindly share them, if possible. Lyrics have to exist for this - how else did they copywright it? "Doctor Diamond" the lyrics of Richard W. Palmer James as transcribed by G. Selinsky. [Fast singing/talking] I'm the driver of an underground train This world to me is all the same, The houses run along inside, down here below, Gonna drive my train to hell, and not a soul will know! I'm the driver of an underground train. Many who wear the memory, ledges of my name, Nobody says a single word, falling from an open eye, He looked me in the face, and you made a facial sigh. [Ballad] I am the driver of an underground train. Lonely nights can't bother me, far away from wind and rain. I come upon the strange engine lights, with a mighty rushing sound. Through this foray, for the private life, I drive around. [Syncopated part] I'm the driver, of an underground train. Climb aboard, just climb aboard, The loss in my life is her gain. Get your precious party in, before I quickly close the door. It will soon all be dark. Your life is mine, my life is yours! __________________________ Naturally, some things are wrong here, but I hope someone can correct me (perhaps Mr. Palmer-James or Mr. Wetton himself - yea, fat chance!) Oh, by the way, here's an unrealistic, inconsiderate, and presumptious suggestion that Robert probably won't laugh at, less take seriously, but just for kicks: "The New Double Trio - i) Fripp, Levin, Bruford; and ii) Emerson, Lake, and Palmer" :) Sorry, Robert, but everyone has their idea of musical heaven. - George ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Aug 1997 21:16:45 -0700 From: Robert Cervero Subject: 1969 Trees, 1970 Birdman, & 1972 Zoom Club In #405, regarding MacDonald and Giles's 1970 release, Ted White remarks: " I confess I'd really love to hear the KC version of 'Birdman.'" You can actually hear a short piece of Birdman from Crimson's October 17 1969 Croydon show. It's a very poor quality audience recording that has made its way onto boot -- Larks' Tongues on the Island (which is mainly the August 9 1971 Marquee Club show). In the audience recording of the Croydon show that's been circulating among traders for years (which includes the tail-end of Epitaph), the piece has the working title of "Trees". The tune begins with what I find to be a beautiful, catchy harmony, sang partly acappella and partly accompanied by Fripp's guitar. A propo to discussions a few issues back on ET, the beginning harmonies sound heavily influenced by the Beach Boy's 'Pet Sounds' -- very Brian Wilson-like. The song then segues into an instrumental riff that is unmistakenly part of Wishbone Ascension (the "slowly up, and slowly down" in M&G's Birdman), followed by a Giles's snare drum role, and concluding with what later would be titled "A Man, A City" (this must be the earliest recording of this song, for it pre-dates the November 1969 Fillmore East show and the December 1969 Fillmore West shows, that just came out in the Epitaph box set). I like the 1970 MacDonald and Giles album a lot, especially Birdman. It hints at the direction Crimson likely would have gone had Ian and Mike stayed on board. For me, hearing a piece of Birdman in the Croydon show was a real treat. Correction: In my post from ET#404, I mentioned the No Pussyfoot boot contains the whole Beat Club show. That's not exactly correct. It contains mainly the October 13 1972 Frankfurt Zoom Club show as well as some 30 minutes of the Beat Club. Though some likely disagree, I really like the versions of Lark Tongues I & II of the Zoom Club show. I might have overstated things when I said the sound quality of this recording was comparable to anything in the Epitaph box set (which is likely true with respect to the original recordings of the Plumpton and Chesterfield shows). Of course, given the miracles David Singleton worked on the Epitaph box set, I'm sure the sound quality of the Zoom Club and Beat Club shows could be significantly improved. And perhaps Fripp himself has even better quality live recordings of Muir-era Crimson than the No Pussyfoot recordings holed away in his vault. My main point is that I, and I'm sure many others, would love to have DGM release live materials of Crimson with Muir as well as the Islands-era Crimson, with Boz, Collins, and Wallace. If there's to be a successor to the Great Deceiver and Epitaph box sets, my vote would go to releases from the 1971-72 period. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #406 ********************************