Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #405 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 405 Thursday, 7 August 1997 Today's Topics: ETs 401 & 402 Larks' tongues on the turntable Fripp's Writings and Aesthetic Ideas Re:CDs, etc. Golden Section more crimson influences KC in film KC Re-releases: audio-video Re: Sylvian This and That Re: Crimson Dreams Re: Defending Sylvian again... Robert Fripp & Sonny Sharrock; Kindred spirits? Starless tingles Music Analysis Various Upcoming releases by John Wetton and Pete Sinfield (info sent by Robert Phan) A Bladik warning!!! Re: Starless Tingles Fibonacci and Sylvian David Sylvian Re: Bladik Bi Kyo Ran re: Were They Ever Satanists?? Sylvian, Monkey Chants and the Spice Girls (!) Paul Rogers and Tony Levin How it all started......and then there was Fripp!! gates of paradise A Couple Quick Ones eno albums King Crimson Satanists? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Ted White Subject: ETs 401 & 402 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:10:41 -0400 Catching up... In 401, I really liked what David Maclennan had to say about progressive rock, as a "genre." I've been listening to music for a long time (all my life, really), and I was in my thirties before Prog came along. I saw it as as aspect of the steady maturation and developing ambitions of sixties rock/rockers. It was part of the same evolution which was revealed in the mid-sixties recordings of the Beatles and the Beach Boys/Brian Wilson, and in the songs of Randy Newman and Van Dyke Parks. It was there in the genesis of Soft Machine. (And Burroughs just died....) It was in the appreciation Robert Wyatt had for Charlie Parker's jazz. It was inevitable. What disappointed me for a long time was that those who pioneered in more ambitious forms of rock seemed to give up and retreat after only a few years. They peaked and fell back, unable to sustain themselves at that higher level. (I am not convinced this did not happen to Robert Fripp as well; nothing he has played in the last twenty years has had as profound an effect upon me as, say, his solo on "Baby's On Fire," to say nothing of that low keening on "Prince Rupert's Lament.") Some "sold out" to easy commercialism (perhaps via the "Oldies" route), while others did not. But what I do not see is the kind of later-in-life creativity that is far more common in classical music. Nothing like the late-in-life genius of a Janacek. I wonder why. But, as I explored farther afield, geographically, I found what I'd been missing. Italian progressive rock offers more than one hundred albums (most of them now on CD) of good stuff, fresh as the day it was recorded (1972-76, mostly). Recently I've been getting into Hungarian and Polish CDs. And South America and Mexico have been the source of a lot of my recent listening - all loosely grouped as "progressive rock." Certainly one good thing to come out of the CD revolution is the way back catalogues - and privately released lps - have been reissued. This is true in jazz too, of course. I've bought CDs in the last ten years of 70's albums that never made it to the U.S. as imports when they originally came out, stuff which is, essentially, "new" to me. That's more than I intended to say on that subject, and may supply an answer to Mark Jordan ("I would like some one else to suggest some other progressive groups") as well. (They're all over the place, Mark.) In 402 David Dudgeon mentions Neil Ardley's A KALIDESCOPE OF RAINBOWS and says of it, "long out of print I guess." It did come out on CD maybe five years ago, David. I can dig up my copy if you need details. John Relph doesn't think "Frippertronics" "specifically refers to the tape technique itself," but when I saw Mr. Fripp on the 1979 Frippertronics tour (three performances in the DC area, all of which I attended) that was my impression; he had little gear besides the two Revoxes, a guitar, and a pedalboard. I've already responded to most of the issues raised by Gordon Emory Anderson, but might add this. He says, "Although the dynamic range of CD is greater than LP, who cares?" I do. For "dynamic range" read "signal to noise ratio." Anyone who has heard a recording uncompressed (studio playback) and then as compressed for an lp, knows there is no comparison - and I don't care HOW much you paid for your playback equipment. CDs don't require any compression - although plenty get it anyway for other reasons, also amplified on by other eters. --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:41:58 -0400 (EDT) From: JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com Subject: Larks' tongues on the turntable >From JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com 5th August. Hello. This is not a record verses CD thing so do not get your pants in a twist. Trust me. I first started to innocently talk about re-releases on record long before 'Analog Arnold' and 'Digital Dick' satarted arguing. As far as I'm concerned, they are both round and have a hole in the middle. If you really do hate vinyl, then scroll down to the next ETer. Last time I wrote, I was on about how it would be nice to have some Crimson albums re-released on vinyl (no, really, I do like CD's as well,) and I suggested 'In the Court' or 'Red'. Well coblers to that. I've changed my mind. After having a think about the albums in order, I thought that ,yes, 'In the court' would be a good choice, but instaed of 'Red', how about 'Larks' Tongues'. This seems to be an important turning point in their musical direction, it's more 'together' than 'Satrless and B B' and seems more of a complete album compared to 'Red'. Plus, in '73, percussionists weren't leaving and Bob wasn't kicking the fiddler out of the band. There are two main points you may be thinking about. 1) 'How can the opinion of one fan say that one particular album should be re-released instead of another?' A) It can't. I am probably going on about KC albums that many fans are not fond of. These are just two personal favourites. That's all. 2) 'What is wrong with 2nd hand original vinay?' A) Nothing. If I happen to come across a good copy of 'Larks Tongues' this weekend, then I will buy it. However. There is also a lot of bad vinyl around,made in the 80's, that is thin and scratches very, very easily and being 19 years of age, I find it somewhat unfair that fans in the seventies could buy pretty much any album thay wanted on nice thick vinyl in a proper thick sleeve with no cheap printing. There is a big difference between listening to a 2nd hand record and one that you know you are the first to listen to and will look after. By the way. CD's are great, aren't they! (Just to keep everyone happy.) P.S. If any of you have recieved an order form from DGM UK recently, then you will have read that there is going to be a ' 73 KC concert available, recorded at Amsterdam (I think). With a box set of this line up already available, plus USA, we can only hope that this will be a video. I hope so, anyway. But, a CD will do just fine. Simon of the South. ------------------------------ From: "Douglas Robillard" Subject: Fripp's Writings and Aesthetic Ideas Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 13:22:50 PDT This is my first posting to Elephant Talk. I've noticed that some Crimheads introduce themselves as if they were participating in a 12-step meeting. So here goes: "My name is Doug and I have been a Crimhead since 1972." I have played guitar for about that long and I thoroughly enjoy the tabs submitted by ET's readers. I have reached the stage where I can knock out a rough version of "Larks' Tongues II" on my Telecaster. I am also an academic (English literature and educational administration), and can't help but notice how many other academically-inclined folks comprise ET's readership. Anyway, I have followed Robert Fripp's writings on music and aesthetics for some years. I am particularly interested in Fripp's thoughts on artistic inspiration. For example, there is his description of King Crimson as a "creative identity, quite apart from the musicians who comprise it (1994), and his suggestion that KC "has a continuing life of its own, quite apart from mine" (1981). These ideas become clearer when he describes musical ideas "flying around him." Recall, the idea for the double-trio lineup was a "Point of Seeing" for him. To paraphrase, Fripp literally plucks his inspiration from thin air. This relationship between artist and inspiration is touched on during the Compuserve online chat (available through ET) when he responds to an audience member's query about the possibility of a "Larks' Tongues Part IV": "If you are asking me if the music for Larks' IV is in the ether, yes," he replies. Fripp conveys the sense that musical ideas, like King Crimson itself, have a life an energy all their own, apart from the artist. In a sense, artists capture these ideas, retrieve them from the "ether," and bring them back to the rest of us through the medium of art. The notion that artistic ideas contain a sort of "energy" is deeply rooted in aesthetic criticism. We also verge on religious thinking here, too: as Fripp is fond of stating, music is a means of making the mind susceptible to divine influences. I find these ideas intriguing. We are privileged to have an artist as bright and articulate as Fripp who is willing to share his experiences "from the inside" with us. I may be mistaken, but I suspect some relationship between Fripp's aesthetic ideas and the Platonic concept of "ideal forms." There are also elements of eastern philosophy in his aesthetic principles. What do ET's readers think? Any insights into Fripp's philosophy? While ET boasts a fine collection of articles and interviews, I would be interested in hearing from other ETers who have access to additional writings by Fripp. If you like, contact me at: drobillard at hotmail dot com All the best, Doug Robillard ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 5 Aug 1997 17:18:43 -0700 From: "Hartnett, Travis" Subject: Re:CDs, etc. "The simple fact is that some bands have had trouble filling even 40 minutes, and other bands would have no trouble filling 80 minutes. This will never change. And no one is requiring bands to record CDs longer than they wish. At some point creative decisions have to be made in putting together any album." This isn't true. Most record contracts have a definition of what constitutes an album, defined by a number of songs and/or a running time. Although the 45-minute, two sides division of music is arbitrary, and result of decades-old technology, it works well in real-world listening. The longer running time of CD's, and lack of physical "sides" seems to have diminished to concept of albums, and replaced it with "16 songs one after the other". I remember when "double albums" (usually containing around 65 minutes of music) were regarded as indulgences, and the phrase "there's a good single LP worth of material spread over four sides" popped up like clockwork. Travis Hartnett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:20:51 +1200 (NZST) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: Golden Section >There is an interesting article in the latest issue of _Personality and >Social Psychology Review_ by Sharon Ruth Gross and Norman Miller on the >"Golden Section." Basically, the Golden Section is the division of an area >into 38.2% figure and 61.8% ground. This is the ratio at which the larger >section is to the whole as the smaller section is to the larger section >(61.8/100 = 38.2/61.8). During the Middle Ages, it was referred to as "the >divine proportion." It has long been known to be aesthetically pleasing >and has been used extensively in art and design. Gross and Miller point >out that "A number of composers have applied the Golden Section to their >music by locating the climax at the 61.8% point of the piece (e.g., Bela >Bartok, Frederic Chopin)". >This seems like just the kind of thing that Fripp would think was cool. >Does anybody know if he has employed the Golden Section in any of his >music? >(P.S. Gross and Miller point out that composers have generally attributed >their use of the 61.8% to the Fibonacci series rather than to the Golden >Section, but it amounts to the same thing.) The Fibonacci Series adds some mathematical credence to something being special about the Golden Section as a mathematical constant, although it doesn't necessarily apply that this will carry over to any aesthetic consideration (are similar aesthetic claims made for pi or e? I've never heard of any) As to the golden section dividing music into pre- and post- climactic sections, it's not something I'd considered with crimson. Going by the law of averages there are bound to be one or two climactic moments at around the 61% mark, but the only one I could locate at a quick scan through my CDs was the start of the last verse of ITCOTCK, at 4.52 into an track of length 7.56. The ratio of Vrooom to Marine 475 is 63.2:36.8 and the ratio of Vrooom Vrooom to Vrooom Vrooom Coda is 65.1:34.9. Neither are that close to the Golden Section, but it is perhaps interesting that the bookmark tracks on Thrak both bear very similar ratios to their coda - especially when you realise the ratio between Radio II and Radio I is also approximately 60:40, as is that of Inner Gardens I and II. With LTIA parts 1 and 2, the ratio is 65:35. Personally, I would think this is more likely coincidence than anything else - given any large body of music it would be possible to discover any combination of numbers, and given that a large proportion of King Crimson's music seems to develop out of improvisation, I find it hardly likely that they would time out the points at which to peak and trough. An interesting idea though James (who nearly did his Masters Thesis on the Golden Section!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:26:46 +1200 (NZST) From: james dot dignan at stonebow dot otago dot ac dot nz (James Dignan) Subject: more crimson influences Yet another band that seems to show some Crimson influence: The Melvins. A couple of the tracks off their "Honky" album show definite crimsoid tendencies, notably "Air breather deep in the arms of Morphius". Definite LTIA leanings there... James ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Wed, 06 Aug 97 16:12:31 PST Subject: KC in film Fellow ETers I was watching a chinese version (with subtitles) of Bruce Lee - The Big Boss and guess what was on the soundtrack. Larks Tongue's in Aspic Pt1. Pink Floyd - Time and a Tangerine Dream track were also used in the movie. I wonder if RF earned royalties for this. Does anybody else know of strange occurences of KC music in films or TV. Oh I forgot, there was an ad for a drink called Frutopia on TV in Aus and the music was a rip off of Neal and Jack and Me (I think). Anyway someone must have done something about this because it changed after a couple of weeks. See Ya Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 02:40:41 -0700 From: Robert Cervero Subject: KC Re-releases: audio-video The comment was made a few posts ago that all the Muir-era audience recordings are "wretched", thus the idea of releasing live materials of the five-piece Crimson ensemble should be deep sixed. While the Nov. 25 1972 Oxford UK show and Dec. 15 1972 Portsmouth shows are indeed horrendous recordings, the Oct. 17 1972 Bremen show (Beat Club, TV) is a masterful performance, and the sound quality is as good as anything on the 4-CD Epitaph release. Muir's percussions are hypnotic, both in audio and on cellulose (i.e., the Beat Club video of Lark's Tongue Part 1). The No Pussyfooting boot (which, by the way, is even for sale on the Internet) has the complete Bremen show. DGM should release this show, pronto....it really needs to become part of Crimson's illustrious "official" archives. In addition to a ripping version of Doctor D, the Bremen show offers the bonus of a powerful rendition of Easy Money that segues into an instrumental that is unmistakenably the precursor to Fallen Angel. From what I've heard, the next DGM re-release of early Crimson that's in store is from the 1981-84 era, because there's more recordings from that era that, according to DGM folks, are "ready to go". With Live in Frejus and KC in Japan long available on video and volumes of audience recordings of the 81-84 band floating around, I must confess to being less than enthused about this prospect. Besides the Beat Club release, I'd much rather have a Great Deceiver/Epitaph-type compilation from the Boz-Collins era (the March 27 '73 show at the Boston Orpheum was one of Crimson's best ever; how these guys were able to follow up Earthbound with that show baffles.). While one can pick up all of this stuff through boots, given the high standards set with Great Deceiver and Epitaph box sets, I'd rather have an official re-release that helps, in however small way, enrich the performers, and that provides a colorful booklet of memorabilia to boot. On the subject of boots and videos, I just got back from Asia. I was blown away by the volume of Crimson boots in Tokyo's northwest Shinjuku district. In several stores, Crimson boots outnumbered all others, save for Zepplin. Most are insanely overpriced and copies of copies of copies. The area's also swimming in Crimson videos. I was also surprised how many folks managed to sneak in video cameras to record the Thrak tour -- San Diego, Buffalo, Washington, New York..... Most are hilarious, with the camera holder trying to stay out of Fripp's eyeshot, providing jerky half glimpses of the band and the backs of peoples' heads. The San Diego video (Third Eye Productions) is the exception. It's pretty impressive -- musically solid, a decent production, and, as noted in an earlier ET post, Fripp is demonstrably more animated in the San Diego show than the Live in Japan DGM video. For me, a cherished find was a video of the Steve Hackett 1996 tour, showcasing Ian McDonald's radiant keys and flute on ITCOTCK, with Wetton on vocals. I paid more than I should have for the Cat Food/Groon 45 rpm, but I couldn't resist the cover -- a cat's mug with the words 'Cat Food' blended into his whiskers and facial hair. I spent much of the past month in Indonesia, where I've lived off and on for the past 12 years. Crimson's Indonesian musical influence (particularly from the Muir era) definitely tilts more toward the more free-form, rhytimcally complex Javanese version of gamelan versus the, IMO, more predictable Balinese gamelan. Spend an evening in a kampung around Jogja, and you'll know what I mean. The day we flew home from Jakarta, I had lunch with my kids in a cozy warung in a little town outside of Bogor. I was chowing down a delectably spicy plate of Nasi Goreng when I faintly heard something I thought I recognized on the warung's aging stereo system. I told myself, this can't be, and proceeded toward the wall speaker. Lo and behold, Epitaph, the 1969 BBC version, was playing! People in the restaurant thought I was nuts -- this stunned looking foreign dude approaching the speaker with disbelief etched on his face. Without me even asking, the warung owner obliged me by turning the radio station up full blast. Hearing May 1969 Crimson in the back woods of Indonesia was, for me, quite a strange space-time alignment, but befittingly Crimsonesque just the same. The moment was lost on my kids, who kept chowing lunch down, having become quite accustomed to hearing Crimson in the background. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 02:51:59 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Sylvian >From: Mike Stack > >Now, the problem I see is this-- people don't like DS because he is >dramatically different from others Fripp has worked with, and is the only >dominant musician really Fripp played with. I would call David Bowie fairly "dominant," and I love Bowie (and Fripp's collaborations with him). But Sylvian...ugh. Could you possibly conceive that some of us might find Sylvian's mannered style rather grating and pretentious? Hell, I'd certainly take Blondie over Sylvian, and Fripp played with that "dramatically different" band also. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:37:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Thomas Andrews Subject: This and That Hi Eters. I have a few miscellaneous things to say about some miscellaneous topics recently confronted. First of all, I hear many of you talking about how diverse KC is with their different incarnations. When I first got into KC, I thought that each group was totally different, too. However, with time, I now think that King Crimson has incorporated many of the same ideas over the years, and that the bands are not as different as they appear. They all have a pop-sensible lead singer who writes tunes in the style of the current music scene. This is balanced by Fripp's experimental leanings. However, their seems to be a more important, less obvious connection which I can't place my finger on. As far as musical analysis of KC goes, as a musician with some training in theory, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me not to analyze the music to some degree while listening, its like telling someone to look at a written word but not read it. I'm sure that many musicians will agree with this statement. This "casual" analysis has not taken any of the magic away. This is a common misconception of non-musicians. They often see music as purely an art form, and any scientific analysis destroys that. I think of music as an art form, but also as a science. It appeals to my brain and my heart. >5. Am I the only one (no, a critic of all people noticed too! Yikes) who >feels that by the time of Red that RF was starting to repeat himself just >a >wee little bit? Those dim2nds (Bartok) and aug 5's and use of repeating, >arppegiated ideas were starting to sound a little samey. Great as Red >is, >esp. "Starless" and "One More Red Nightmare", when I first heard it in >late 1975, I thought "Hmm...it sounds like "Fracture" with vocals". >Shall >I be burned at the stake now or later? Isn't a dim 2nd a 1st, which is actually unison? If my memory serves me, A half step interval is a minor 2nd. I could be wrong... out, Art ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arthur Andrews ata5d at virginia dot edu "We're just better off lurking somewhere on the edge of the music business." -Tony Levin of King Crimson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 10:25:38 -0400 From: Michael Wagner Subject: Re: Crimson Dreams Hi all, The recent thread about King Crimson dreams must've triggered my subconscious to have one too. My subconscious is strange (as are most, I would imagine) so it came up with a particularly unique one... ...I was standing off stage left, watching the boys playing on stage. It was the second closest encounter I've ever had with Fripp, since last tour he stood about 4 feet away from me for 2 minutes and 41 seconds watching CGT perform...:) Of course I didn't say anything to him so as not to interrupt his listening, but it was still very exciting to have one of my guitar heroes standing next to me. ANYWAY, they're playing something that I can't remember, but I knew at the time that I hadn't heard it ever before...it was a THRAK-ish piece I'm sure (a common theme for KC dreams, eh?) And from over yonder THRAKing, what doth appear? The boys (seemlessly, of course) jumped into a really original, totally unique, and only slowly recognizable version of "Low Rider" (by the band War, I believe?). I think Fripp had a harmonica-synth hooked up to his guitar, and Bruford was kicking out an interesting rhythm line... ...definately one of my funnier dreams. -Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:49:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: Olivier Malhomme Subject: Re: Defending Sylvian again... Organization: "GIS INFOBIOGEN, 7 rue Guy Moquet BP8, 94801 VILLEJUIF, France" Hola! Mecreants! Well I'm in also to defend the guy (not that he needs it, but wel.. So he has a 3 note range whao! Even if it was true, you are certainly right, that makes him a poor singer, besides, for certainly the same reason that makes a 300 pages book better than any 50 pages book. And I suppose Pat Metheny will never be as good as shawn Lane, because the former obviously don't play as many notes per seconds... Let us see what you look for in a singer. If you wan range, well go listen to Klaus Nomi. I consider he has monster great tone. I also consider hehas a perfect sense of timing (including in timing the sense of playing or singing the right thing at the right time (he plays some of the solos in Damage) including, besides the timing that make him choose the right PEOPLE at the right time. Texts are goofy? Well, I don't follow you on these, but it is certainly due to the fact that I'm not american or english. I suppose I must suffer dumbness enough to find them at the same time attractive and often difficult to figure out. But maybe I'm just nt familiar enough with your native tongue... I expect from a singer a kind of balance between showing off and coldness. I saw him live and he is able to amaze with a perfect sense of emotional density and repressed emotion that prevent us to go in the "let us get hysterical" area. But if you want techical data, show me someone with such an incredible control on his vibrato. Again: When I saw Fripp/sylvian's road to graceland tour, it was the biggest concert of my life. Both of them blessed us not only with to good to be true music, but their focus on what they did shook me for long. It was also a lesson in dedication. Show me that before you can ridiculously dust someone. Just show half of the musical qualities, then maybe you can talk. Certainly this day, you will not anymoreBut maybe I should better listen to Celine Dion? And to finish, certainly all the people who worked with him must habe pretty blind (the likes of Fripp, Nelson, all the exJapan members, Thompson, Hassell....) Well well well, time to go sleep, I get easily irritate nowadays. Must be the mosquitos... Olivier Malhomme ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:15:17 -0500 From: Richard C Williams Organization: The United States of Amnesia Subject: Robert Fripp & Sonny Sharrock; Kindred spirits? After being somewhat surprised that his name was never mentioned during the recent Fripp/Jazz thread, I am none the less pleased to see all the ET posters who are hip to Sonny Sharrock. Upon getting Epitaph, I was amazed to hear some quite startling similarities in Fripp and Sharrock's guitar technique. Check out Volume 3's Get Thy Bearings, and Mantra, About 7 minutes into both pieces, Fripp plays parts that could have come right off of Sonny's late 60's LP Black Woman!. I once asked Sonny if he was familiar with Fripp's work(They were both on the Guitar Player advisory board at one point), but he said he was not. And as we all know, Fripp is loathe to discuss his specific guitar playing influences. Of course it is not impossible that two different musicians could independantly develop similar techniques, but that doesn't stop me from wondering whether Fripp was familiar with Sharrock back in the late 60's. (Any comments, Robert?) Certainly Sonny's "Buzzsaw Trill" as he called it, has a lot in common with the rapid fire chordal playing that Fripp sometimes employed, And Epitaph certainly underscores that line-ups interest in Free Jazz. During the recording of Sharrock's 1986 Guitar LP, just after Sonny played the achingly beautiful solo on the tune Broken Toys, All of us in the booth, looked at each other incredulously, where upon Bill Laswell told Sharrock; "That was very Frippian of you". Whether all this is a result of Influence, Coincidence, or what Fripp describes as "The music playing the Musician" I cannott say, But I'd be interested to hear what anyone else thinks of the specific comparisons I've raised BTW, All Sharrock Fan's should check out ex-Television Guitarist Richard Lloyd's new album w/Sharrock,Laswell, and Anton Fier. Plus the Space Ghost Soundtrack CD that was recently re-released by the Cartoon Network Also in ET 404 JP Hovercraft (Great name!) asks about the new "Bladik" CD.Although I havent heard it, The Paul Rodgers and Tony Levin listed, are NOT the guys from Free and Crimson. Rich Williams ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 11:20:11 -0400 From: dave lane Subject: Starless tingles Organization: Frog Hollow Day Camp crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) wrote: > Regards the 'Starless Tingles'; this phenomenon has long been > a subject of interest for me, even from a pragmatic point of view. Who else got chills when hearing the Pittsburgh version of "Starless" from The Great Deceiver and realizing that the UK song "Caesar's Palace Blues" contained a 'lost' verse from Starless? --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 10:43:39 -0500 (CDT) From: cain joren reid Subject: Music Analysis This is just a big "Right On" to the non-musician in the last issue that just said no to the idea of musical analysis, etc. on et. I am a musician, and I completely agree that the key to King Crimson is NOT that they play alot of diminished chords. Yes, it would be interesting to know what all those notes are in the middle of "21st Century...", but I don't think this is the place for that stuff. Not only would a newsletter be very dry that says, "and then they play an F7 for two bars....", but having an appreciation for music doesn't need to include any of that (it can, in fact, get in the way sometimes). Also, before this gamelon thing fades away, I thought I'd include this. I'm a student at Northern Illinois University, and a friend of mine has been commissioned to write a piece for gamelon and orchestra for the Chicago Sinfionetta (which I probably misspelled). His name is David Gordon, and it is going to be performed at Orchestra Hall April 20, 1998. I know it's awhile away, but if anyone's around then, you should check it out; he writes some cool stuff. -Joren Cain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:45:27 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Various Let me respond to one of the posts that have mentioned me, and my supposed "fight for analog". [Toby: Note that this post is not about analog vs digital per se, so i hope you won't squelch it!] Dr P Said.... >I've gone on long enough, here. Let's not yearn for the turntable rumble >of yore, just because we grew up with it. I listened to my first records >on a windup Victrola, played with fiber needles that wore out after one >(3-minute) play. I don't want to go back to that. Like most posters responding to my initial post on the CD vs analog debate, Dr P has missed my initial pupose. I was NOT trying to say that "analog is better". I was, however, defending the ears of "the Analog Kid" who was flamed for stating his preference for analog. I was pointing out that the many lovers of analog are not just crazy nostalgic fools, but many times people with some real taste and listening-chops. It's the whole, dismissive attitiude that i was fighting against, particular when that same attitude created the monstrosity that was early 80s digital, calling it "perfect sound forever". (Listen to Glen Goulds' Goldberg Variations and you'll hear a tragedy!) I myself have invested a lot of money in a good digital system, to the point that the best digital (from early 90s onward) sounds better than the LPs I used to listen to. As for David Sylvian's voice: you're missing the point. Listen to his lyrics, and listen to the excellent music that was enabled as a result of this unique mood. If you do, you'll see why I predict that someday, Fripp and Sylvian will work together again, no matter what may have transpired between them. I think Damage has some of Fripp's most inspired work to date. The Golden ratio? I have not seen anyone state the basic generator for this. A rectangle has sides of the golden ratio, if the length of the short side dfivided by the long side is equal to the long side divided by the sum of the two sides. Salvador dali's painting of the last supper (complete with dodecahedron in the background) has this ratio. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 13:29:50 -0400 (EDT) From: ROBERTP81E at aol dot com Subject: Upcoming releases by John Wetton and Pete Sinfield (info sent by Robert Phan) Hi to all, I have just received the Summer '97 mail order catalog from the friendly folks at Blueprint Records. It's an extensive catalog that included the following notable CD releases: 1) BP230CD - JOHN WETTON....SONGS FROM THE VAULTS 1....=A312.95 # No details were given. 2) BP231CD - JOHN WETTON....SONGS FROM THE VAULTS 2....=A312.95 # Again, no details were given. 3) BP249CD - PETE SINFIELD....AMIGOS....=A312.95 # I can hardly wait for this album. It has been almost 25 years since Pete Sinfield released his first album! 4) BP258CD - JACK KNIFE....I WISH YOU WOULD....=A312.95 # I remember seeing the Japanese CD re-issue with the usual high-price tag about 6 or 7 years ago. I will definitely get it this time. 5) BP265CD - JOHN WETTON....4 CD SET....=A335.00 # No details were given. But I'm hoping and praying that the album "Caught = In The Crossfire" will be included in this box set. Please note that the # symbol denotes that it's a new release. Unfortunat= ely, no release dates were given. You can find the above upcoming releases (.... without the catalog number= s ....) at the Rock Relics web site. The web address is: http://www.rockrelics.co.uk/ For your information, the Rock Relics web site regroups all of the releas= es from Voiceprint Records and its subsidaries such as Blueprint, Hi-Art, an= d Populuxe Records. That's all for now. Until the next time, be well and take care. Aloha, Robert. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 13:50:39 -0400 From: Francois Couture <93039260 at callisto dot si dot usherb dot ca> Subject: A Bladik warning!!! In ET 404, someone wrote : >Hello ETers, > >A friend at work subscribes to a music releases magazine called "Ice". This >includes new releases, re-releases, and bootlegs. > >A recent issue mentioned an album by a band called "Bladik". The >membership? Elton Dean (Soft Machine), Paul Rogers (Free), Keith Tippett >and Tony Levin, on the Cuneiform label. Anyone have any more info? Sounds >pretty interesting. All these guys are -really- good. CAREFULL!!! This is a great cd, but I don't think you know what it is about. Elton Dean : Yes, from Soft Machine, now a great free sax improvisator. Keith Tippett : Yes, from KC fame, now maybe the greatest piano improvisator alive (check his 'Une croix dans l'ocean' on Victo Records). Paul Rogers : NOT FROM FREE. He is a improvisator. If I remeber correctly, he plays doublebass. Tony Levin : NOT FROM KC. He is a drummer. Tippett, Rogers, Levin and another guy whose name I cannot recall form a band called Mujician. They have 3 releases on Cuneiform records. 'Bladik' is the cd document of a one-time studio session between E. Dean, Mujician and a trombonist whose name also eludes me right now. It is one of the best free-jazz cds I heard in 1997. And believe me, I listen to a lot of them. Glad I could be of some help. Francois Couture ------------------------------ From: Doug Mitchell Date: Wed, 6 Aug 97 11:48:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Starless Tingles Mike Dickson muses: <> > Anyone who manages to understand and harness that effect > would soon find themselves being an absolutely unstoppable > force. Well, as far as I'm concerned, Messrs. Fripp, Wetton, Bruford, and Cross have clearly harnessed this effect. They were/are an ustoppable force as far as I can tell, at least while I'm inside the last few minutes of "Starless"...:-) How about some other examples of this effect: The climax of "Shine On You Crazy Diamond", at the end of Gilmour's slide guitar solo The last guitar solo in Hendrix's "1983" The resolution of Miles Davis' "Pharoah's Dance" Last movement of Beethoven's 9th Duane Allman's slide solo in "Mountain Jam (part 2)" (Sorry the list is heavily weighted towards guitar solos. What can I say.) All examples are as per Mike's observation - you have to listen to the whole thing to get the effect. You can't just punch in to the "good part". Tension & resolution are an integral part of the experience. --dpm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 14:44:43 -0700 From: Josh Emery Organization: Emery Distributors, Inc. Subject: Fibonacci and Sylvian >>This seems like just the kind of thing that Fripp would think was cool. >>Does anybody know if he has employed the Golden Section in any of his >>music? > >I'd be interested to hear of any instances of this too (I'm not aware of >any myself). I remember when Fripp first started talking about NST he said it was based on the Fibonacci system. >>Sylvian, as a vocalist, is really the weak link here. His three-note >>range, unintentionally goofy lyrics, and melodramatic histrionics >>definitely take things down a notch. > >Yup. The music's quality goes up and down, directly depending on how much >Sylvian input there is. Considering that Damage resulted from a co-operative effort between Sylvian, Fripp and Gunn as the project started out as the three of them touring and working things out as they went along, I would like to know how you define how much Sylvian input there is in any given piece. I would say, if you like any of Damage, you like DS more than you are willing to admit, his input is everywhere, as is Fripp's, as is Trey's. > If The First Day didn't exist, Damage would be utterly essential. But since > it does exist, I had to mull over whether I wanted to keep Damage myself. In light of you're (quoted above) Sylvian comment this is very ironic as "The First Day" is Sylvian's interpretation of their body of work and "Damage" is Fripp's. Sounds like you consider Sylvian's input essential and Fripp's optional. Josh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:19:13 -0400 From: Sid Smith Subject: David Sylvian Apart from Ghosts (which I liked) by Japan I hadn't heard anything by David Sylvian before hearing The First Day. I would have to say that Sylvian's voice probably is an aquired taste. What amazed me was how quickly I was able to aquire it. As soon as I got back to Newcastle after seeing Sylvian and Fripp in Glasgow, I went straight into Virgin and bought Gone To Earth. OK some of the smaller tracks sounded a little bit Eno-ish but the CD does contain some truly beautiful songs. After that I got the Beehive one which has quickly established itself as my fave by Dave. The partnership with Sylvian produced some classic playing by Fripp (20th Century Dreaming and Darshan) and for me The First Day and Damage are essential elements to my enjoyment of Fripp. I await a new Sylvian release if not quite with baited breath then certainly with some anticpation. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997 18:18:41 -0400 From: Steve Smith Subject: Re: Bladik J. P. Hovercraft wrote: > A friend at work subscribes to a music releases magazine called "Ice". > This > includes new releases, re-releases, and bootlegs. > > A recent issue mentioned an album by a band called "Bladik". The > membership? Elton Dean (Soft Machine), Paul Rogers (Free), Keith > Tippett > and Tony Levin, on the Cuneiform label. Anyone have any more info? > Sounds > pretty interesting. All these guys are -really- good. I think you've got one and maybe two examples of mistaken identity here. The Paul Rogers on this album is not the vocalist from Free and Bad Company (and Boz's former bandmate) but Paul Rogers the incredibly agile free improvising double bass player who's been playing with Tippett for a while in a rather intense British free jazz quartet called Mujician (a name borne by many of Tippett's projects since the eighties on the SAJ, FMP and Cuneiform labels). And the Tony Levin in question is not our own Papa Bear, but a somewhat younger British free jazz percussionist. Essentially, "Bladik" is Tippett's regular Mujician quartet with the quite wonderful Elton Dean subbing for the regular saxophonist in the band, Paul Dunmall. Doubtless a bracing listen, but you should know what you're in for if you were expecting an intersection of "All Right Now," "Cat Food" and "Elephant Talk." Steve Smith new e-mail address: ssmith36 at sprynet dot com ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: Bi Kyo Ran Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:47:25 -0700 >From: Ted White >Subject: Catching Up >Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:46:41 -0400 >In 400 Barry Hecht mentions the Japanese band, Bi Kyo Ran. I have all >their albums, Barry - including the live album of KC covers - and I find >them all subtly disappointing. I only possess one of the albums where they actually perform KC tunes (volume 4). The sound quality is terrible. How is the sound quality of the remaining ones that I do not have. I'm curious as to why you have their "entire" collection if you are disappointed with them? The reason why I love them is because of just "how much" they remind me of some of my favorite periods of KC. If you can get used to the foreign vocals, it's like having another KC around. There is something missing. This is a >common complaint I have with Japanese "prog" groups. I don't consider >myself racist, but I've yet to hear a "symphonic rock" or progressive >Japanese band that I felt was really good. I feel the void or emptiness that you are referring to with the band "HAPPY FAMILY" at times. (I'll exempt Il Berlione, which >is more fusion/jazz oriented. The Japanese are better at jazz.) They >have >the technical chops, but bring nothing new, nothing inspired from their >own >culture, to the music, and the music is a competent synthesis of >European >music, but a copy at best. This is my whole point with Bi Kyo Ran. Sure nothing unique, just a copy. However, an enjoyable copy of one of my favorite bands. Italians bring their own culture to their >progressive rock ("pop Italiano"), as do those in Germany, France, >eastern >Europe, etc. I hear nothing "Japanese" in the music of Japanese groups >that would correspond to this I agree with you here. Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:17:14 -0400 (EDT) From: MADELF69 at aol dot com Subject: re: Were They Ever Satanists?? Greetings all, been lurking for a while and thought I would share a little Crimso obscurity I came across many years ago.....if this has been posted in a previous ET, my apologies.....the phrase "starless and bible black" is used in the opening narration of the Dylan Thomas play "Under Milkwood".....the narrator is using this phrase to describe the night sky. I heard it when a friend loaned me a recording of the play being read for an old radio broadcast....I was so excited by the Crimso reference that I could hardly listen to the rest of the play! I then made my own special tape of the Starless album which starts with the short narration leading up to "starless and bible black" and then has The Great Deceiver come crashing in..... As far as the name King Crimson is concerned, I once read that it was another name for Beelzebub, one of Satan's princes.....close to the source to say the least.....anyone out there have the real scoop on this????? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 08:31:01 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: Sylvian, Monkey Chants and the Spice Girls (!) I, too, would like to join those springing to the defence of David Sylvian in ET#404. I've been a Sylvian fan since the last two Japan albums ("Gentlemen Take Polaroids", and even moreso "Tin Drum"). Contrary to popular misconception, Japan on those last two albums were well beyond their days as a teen-glam pop band. And Sylvian's subsequent career shows that being a pop star was never where he wanted to be at musically anyway. I like all of his solo albums, especially "Gone to Earth" and "Secrets of the Beehive" (and of course the wonderful Japan-reunion-in-all-but-name, Rain Tree Crow). As for the Sylvian/Fripp discs, both are excellent IMHO, and I wouldn't be parted from either of them except on pain of death. Also in ET#404, Eb mentioned the Balinese monkey chant. An interesting use of this, if you want to check it out, is on track 1 (or side 1 for you vinyl Luddites) of Jade Warrior's superb 1974 album, "Floating World" (and if you haven't heard Jade Warrior you really don't know what you're missing!). As for Jason Bell liking Sylvian, KC AND the Spice Girls, all I can say is..... whew! And I thought _I_ had eclectic musical tastes! Finally, I was intrigued by the post from J.P. Hovercraft about the "Bladik" album: Tippett, Dean, Levin..... and PAUL ROGERS???? Bit of a change of direction for him, I would have thought. Are you sure it's the same Paul Rogers? David Maclennan ------------------------------ Subject: Paul Rogers and Tony Levin Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:27:42 +0900 From: Fast Junkie > A friend at work subscribes to a music releases magazine called "Ice". This > includes new releases, re-releases, and bootlegs. > > A recent issue mentioned an album by a band called "Bladik". The > membership? Elton Dean (Soft Machine), Paul Rogers (Free), Keith Tippett > and Tony Levin, on the Cuneiform label. Anyone have any more info? Sounds > pretty interesting. All these guys are -really- good. I have to say that you're making a mistake or two. Paul Rogers is not the Paul RODGERS of Free. And even Tony Levin is not THAT Tony Levin of KC, and has hair. I'm pretty sure that Rogers plays bass and Levin plays drums. But don't worry; the other two are exactly who you think they are. And I think it IS going be a good album. Did you know that Tippet, Rogers and Levin have recorded several albums with another saxophonist, as a band called 'MUJICIAN'? +-------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ |Masaki KUROKAWA |Don't give us none of yer aggravation, | | c/o KEIO University,JAPAN|we've had it with yer discipline. | |e-mail: s95336mk at sfc dot keio dot ac dot jp |Saturday night's alright for fighting, | | http://www.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~s95336mk|get a little action in. (Elton John)| +-------------------------------------+---------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 21:12:58 +1000 From: John Nyman Subject: How it all started......and then there was Fripp!! Hi,This is my first, and most probably only,diatribe i will write, since i have just received my first edition of E.T. ! Back in the summer of '74 (your winter!), i was over at my cousins place and out of his big brother's window wafted the very loud sounds of tinkling bells (which i now know are Kalimbas!) and soothing type of african percussions.I didn't pay much attention until this all mashed into one and a staccato violin broke the serenity and then .......the most fantastic cataclysmic crecendo occurred at an incredibly ear splitting volume ! I hurriedly turned to the source in complete shock and my older cousin stood grinning in his open window! Before I could open my mouth another sonic crescendo assualted my senses and this 16 year old was completely at the mercy of the solid pummeling rhythmn section and superb dynamics of the most fantastic piece of music i had ever heard!! Two days later,I had managed to borrow the "nirvana of my desire !" and retired with it into the sanctity of my room.The power of LTiA part 1 completely engulfed me and as it careered into the violin solo and then recapitulated with the final crescendo and then sank into the percussion ending,a breathless rollercoaster ride of the most fantastic piece of music i had ever heard !........... Twenty Three years later,nothing has changed. LTiA is the ULTIMATE ROCK RECORD and i will gladly debate this with anyone who cares to respond! I may have started listening late in life (16!),but nothing comes close for me in the "tingle factor" and sheer intensity of that experience .I have gone backwards in recorded time and of course forwards,but as one body of work it is unsurpassed. I could go on about individual parts within the album,but i'm sure other E.T ers have dicussed this at length in the last 404 issues! Coming from a small town in Tasmania ,Australia,I have always found that the admirers of this album are few and far between. It was, and still is,a very personal thing between LTiA and myself! I have found that it is like a secret to be shared amongst friends,but only those who have the capacity to appreciate it's intensity. In the twelve years i was married,i never played it once to my wife(ex wife..maybe that's why!!)and i can remember playing it to disinterested friends and wondering why i bothered ! It is like a precious spice. I had the Tantra Design cover tattoed on my back,without the faces,and as my only tattoo,it serves purpose in my life......I live in sunny Queensland ,at the Sunshine Coast and spend a lot of time surfing,in my music studio and lying in the sun,so the design has a lot of synergy with my lifestyle as well ! I had been living with my new girlfriend for about 6 months ,when i decided to do the LTiA acid test.She found Part One a bit hard to digest ,but was immediately entrapped by Book of Saturday and madly fell in love with ITCotCK,especially ITttW and Moonchild! Rusty decided to get the same tattoo as me,as her bond to KC had become nearly as strong as mine.Last year,our first child,Indianna Cherry was born to the sounds of "Walking on Air" and no doubt she will pass the music down another generation to her children. So you see Mr Fripp,your great recording efforts for this human and his family,have enriched our lives and led us down a small and narrow path of which the majority will never tread and for that i thank you from the bottom of my heart. CHEERS,NYMO p.s. I still do the best Fripp sounding solos ......on a synthesizer!! No E-Bow required!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 11:39:14 +0100 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: gates of paradise I am a bit confused by the review of Gates of Paradise. Is it now available? Why haven't we heard anything yet? My understanding is that it will be released in the fall. Has it been released in Germany? (I'm not one who has to have everything the day it is issued, but I do like to know what's out there. Can someone explain what's going on?) ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: A Couple Quick Ones Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 13:04:24 -0400 I much appreciate Clive Backham's detailed response in 403 to Gordon Emory Anderson; his technical expertese considerably exceeds my own. One minor quibble, Clive: "As for bandwidth: well, I'll grant you that some LPs have non-zero signals beyond 20kHz, but whether it constitutes valid programme information is extremely unlikely." How quickly we forget early-70's quad. The RCA system - which forced the adoption of half-speed mastering and the Shibata stylus (now quasi-standard) - recorded signals up to 35kHz for the multiplexing info for the rear channels. Why didn't it survive? Another slight problem with lps: one or two dozen plays ERASED the high-frequency signals. Vinyl can't sustain the heat/friction of a tracking stylus moving at that frequency. I suspect even lower-frequency signals (over 12kHz, say) suffer from repeated plays with anything less than a laser.... People have already responded to Jamie Rothwell's query about Macdonald & Giles, so I'll add just this: In the late 70's Ian told me that album took a great deal out of him, virtually causing a nervous breakdown. The "Birdman" suite was, according to Fripp's notes for EPITAPH, being rehearsed by KC for their second album, along with the original "Cadence & Cascade," the melody of which Ian used for "Flight of the Ibis" (and so credited in the liner credits for the album). I confess I'd really love to hear the KC version of "Birdman." But overall, M&G has a lighter, more music-hall approach to the music than that found on an KC album - the darkness and drama is largely missing. And "Suite in C" is as good as or better than anything the 70's KC ever did, albeit very unlike anything KC has done. I regard the album as a whole as a major album and one every KC fan should have. It is currently available as a Japanese CD, which has been sold in Tower (a few years ago) for as little as $13.99 (more now, I think). --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:22:21 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: eno albums All of Eno's albums (with the exception of Nerve Net, which I found cold and standoffish, and Eno/Wobble, which I haven't heard) are worth owning. Here Come the Warm Jets, Taking Tiger Mountain by Strategy, and Another Green World are all really cool pop albums ranging from heavy dissonance on Warm Jets, to mellow assonance (well, not totally) on Green World. Music for Films is very mellow and relaxing. Ambient 1, 2, 3, and 4 all have something to offer the discriminating listener. Ambient 1 (Music for Airports) is all done with tape loops, and is very soothing. Ambient 2 (The PLateaux of Mirror) is done with Harold Budd (who worked with Dead can Dance) playing piano, and is beautiful and dark. Ambient 3 (Day of Radiance) is recorded with the dulcimer playing of Laraaji, and is probably the least approachable (and least ambient) of the series. Ambient 4 (On Land) is awesome. A true culmination of the series, these pieces all exist in their own sonic environments, and the album truly is an immersive experience. A must-have. After these, My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (with David Byrne (as well as an impressive array of NYC session men)) is another great album, blending percussion and ambient music and found sounds into a fascinating collage. After this, theres Apollo...music for a film about the moon landing,, featuring Eno, his brother Roger, and Dan Lanois. Great spacey music. Forget Tangerine Dream...this is the one! Another good one is Fouth World vol. 1 (2 is unavailable on CD, tho i have the vinyl) with trumpet mutator Jon Hassell. Weird spacey jungle music, with very unusual African percussion. Also worth a look are Hybrid, with Michael Brook and Eno, Thursday Afternoon, The Pearl (another collaboration with Harold Budd), Wrong Way Up (a return to pop music with John Cale as collaborator), Shutov Assembly, Neroli....and his latest The Drop. In brief (too late!)....almost ANY Eno album is worth owning. (My intro to Eno was a request that came late in my college DJ shift for Blank Frank (which features RF on psychotic giuitar solo)....needless to say (to those familiar with the song) I never heard anything like that at all) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 12:43:48 -0700 From: ryecatch at cts dot com Subject: King Crimson Satanists? The name King Crimson is derived from Beelzebub...which in turn is derived from (arabic?) Baal Saab...translated as "the man with an aim". This is a turn used a great deal by GI Gurdjieff....so no....I don't think that proves they were Satanists. Fallen Angel. Satan may have been a fallen angel....but why don't you READ tHE LYRICS! Doesn't sound terribly like Satan to me... ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #405 ********************************