Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #404 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 404 Tuesday, 5 August 1997 Today's Topics: Fripp 'n' Ferry re: The Golden Section Starless Tingles Re:Gamelan recommendations KC Singles Available Gamelan damage, etc. Re: Elephant Talk Digest #403 Experimental Gamelan Ref - KC Productivity/ET #401 in defense of david sylvian Sylvian Spice E-BOW and I BOW CD recommendation: new (NZ) gamelan music Tingles Post in ET 403 Info on MacDonald, Giles Mark Craney Benefit and ELP Crimsonian styles, the forbidden name and KC, women and KC, LP/CD Eno for the Newbie Sylvians voice & "Damaged" listeners Possible Productions.... Re: Musical Dreams The Gates of Paradise - Short Review CDs, etc. Musician vs Non-Musician and Tingle G3 cancelled in San Diego 8/2 New album? RE: The Golden Section The Opening of Elephant Tape Bill Frisell & John McLaughlin EMOTONAL ASPIC DREAMS SYLVAIN FRIPPERY OCCULT TRICKS GURDJIEFF LONG LETTER RF, KC & Prog Were they ever satanists? + Jamie Muir McDonald & Giles ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:30:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Fripp 'n' Ferry MR MARTIN P KENNEDY wrote: >I saw Bryan Ferry (who Sylvian imitated at one point), and he >was pretty solid. I would like to see Fripp do some work with Ferry. It may take some searching, but try to track down Ferry's 1976 single "This Is Tomorrow"/"As The World Turns," which features Fripp (and Eddie Jobson, who co-wrote the song) on the flip side. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html "Life is just a bowl of All-Bran: you wake up every morning and it's there..." ------------------------------ From: crux at best dot com Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 10:24:52 -0700 Subject: re: The Golden Section On 7/31/97, Christopher Jepson wrote, in ET 403: >There is an interesting article in the latest issue of _Personality and >Social Psychology Review_ by Sharon Ruth Gross and Norman Miller on the >"Golden Section." Basically, the Golden Section is the division of an area >into 38.2% figure and 61.8% ground. This is the ratio at which the larger >section is to the whole as the smaller section is to the larger section >(61.8/100 = 38.2/61.8). During the Middle Ages, it was referred to as "the >divine proportion." It has long been known to be aesthetically pleasing >and has been used extensively in art and design. Gross and Miller point >out that "A number of composers have applied the Golden Section to their >music by locating the climax at the 61.8% point of the piece (e.g., Bela >Bartok, Frederic Chopin)". The exact value, known to mathematicians as phi, is (1 + sqrt(5)) / 2. This can be calculated from the property described above, expressed mathematically as 1/phi = phi-1. Ratios of adjacent terms of the Fibonacci sequence (2/1, 3/2, 5/3, 8/5, etc.) are successively closer to phi (phi is the limit). Pine cones and sunflowers typically have their scales and seeds arranged in overlapping clockwise and counterclockwise spiral patterns, with the numbers of arms in the two spirals being two consecutive numbers from the Fibonacci sequence. Research has shed doubt on the widely-repeated notion that a rectangle of aspect ratio 1.618 : 1 will be regarded by most people as having the most aesthetically pleasing proportion. In addition, there is reason to doubt that the Golden Section was used intentionally by the ancient Greeks or Egyptians, or by Leonardo da Vinci. For more details, see George Markowsky's paper "Misconceptions About the Golden Ratio" in College Mathematics Journal 23 (January 1992) pp. 2-19. Yes, this contradicts claims that have been published in countless other books and articles. If you're interested, I encourage you to read both sides of the story. It is not in dispute that some twentieth century architects and composers have been fascinated by the Golden Section and made intentional use of it in their work. Bartok not only organized the durations of some of his works by the Golden Section (with the climax, or start of the recapitulation, or other turning point, 61.8% of the way into a movement); the Golden Section and Fibonacci numbers also played a role in the construction of motives and intervals in his work. (And Bartok was keen on sunflowers.) >This seems like just the kind of thing that Fripp would think was cool. >Does anybody know if he has employed the Golden Section in any of his >music? I'd be interested to hear of any instances of this too (I'm not aware of any myself). Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 17:31:25 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Starless Tingles Regards the 'Starless Tingles'; this phenomenon has long been a subject of interest for me, even from a pragmatic point of view. The sort of stuff that brings it out on me is 'Hey Jude' (or at least the first part of it as it leads into the chorus), 'River Deep, Mountain High' (that unison piano/bass section does it for me every time), the coda to Brian Wilson's masterpiece 'Surf's Up' or that incandescent falsetto note in the last verse of 'Unchained Melody'. 'Starless' does it for me as well - in exactly the same point described - which leads me to believe that it cannot be as subjective a feeling as it at first appears. I once attempted to put together a tape of material that brought me out in the 'tingles' and, played to the right person, it may be as close as they are ever going to get to being multi-orgasmic. There's no question that the music hits some 'spot' somewhere. I even tried editing the tape to contain more or less *only* the 'tingly' parts of the relevant songs and it simply didn't work, which would suggest that some kind of musical 'foreplay' is needed for the effect to work. Certainly I cannot think of any piece of music that has that effect on me from the first moment it starts. Whatever the feeling is, I've read theories on it about it being all tied up in crescendo and 'ascending resolutions', not to mention harmony (which doesn't make sense because the most dischordant heart of 'Heroin' brings me out in some of the most extreme tingles) but explaining it is as pointless and maybe as destructive as trying to explain why humour is funny. I would, however, say that any attempt to explain the effect in terms of musical expression is worthless because (in my opinion) it simply boils down to a wordless and wholly non-envious expression of I WISH THAT WAS ME DOING THAT STUFF. Anyone who manages to understand and harness that effect would soon find themselves being an absolutely unstoppable force. Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Fax 0131-653-6124 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Columnated Ruins Domino ------------------------------ Subject: Re:Gamelan recommendations Date: Sat, 2 Aug 97 14:27:48 -0000 From: "David G. Shaw" Anyone interested in gamelan music shoudl listen to "Music From The Morning of the World," a collection of Balinese gamelan on teh Elektra Nonesuch Explorer label. If it's still in print, get "Sangkala" by E. Koestyara and Group Gapura, on Icon Records. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:20:39 -0400 (EDT) From: MongoBoy at aol dot com Subject: KC Singles Available I'm able to get my hands on the two KC singles released from Thrak: 1. Dinosaur 2. Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream. Email me privately if interested Matt ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 14:39:01 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Gamelan damage, etc. >From: Nameless to the Goddess >Subject: gamelan > >...let me say, I love the gamelan. My only >exposure to it is on the soundtrack, by the Geinoh Yamashirogumi, to the >movie Akira, and it's very cool. There's some great gamelan stuff available on the Nonesuch label. I'm not sure if it's still in print, but the used records are around. And let me just add here that if ANY piece of music could make God appear, it's the Balinese monkey chant (a version of which is/was also available on Nonesuch). Talk about "musical orgasms!" >From: Stephen Arthur >Subject: Damage > >There are many excellent bands out there (most >of them are not from the 80's or 90's). Noooo comment. >I have no regrets getting rid of Damage: pretty mediocre. If The First Day didn't exist, Damage would be utterly essential. But since it does exist, I had to mull over whether I wanted to keep Damage myself. Eventually, I decided to keep it due to its scarcity, my completist tendencies, a few otherwise unavailable songs and a few Fripp solos which are more jarring/extroverted than anything on The First Day. But I won't quarrel with someone who traded the disc back. Other folks may be more indignant, I suspect. >From: claire shindler >Subject: Damage/Sylvian's "singing" voice > >Sylvian, as a vocalist, is really the weak link here. His three-note >range, unintentionally goofy lyrics, and melodramatic histrionics >definitely take things down a notch. Yup. The music's quality goes up and down, directly depending on how much Sylvian input there is. >From: daniel farris > >As a side note, the only humans who are able to hear above 25KHz are >black girls under the age of 14. They can hear up to 32KHz. How in the world did someone determine this?? >From: Justin Weinberg >Subject: CD Indexing > >For an example of CD Indexing, check out the title track off _Lizard_. >It has four index points you can skip right to: > 1 0.00 > 2 4.36 > 3 11.12 > 4 22.17 The most valuable use of this function which I know is on the new Rykodisc pressing of Frank Zappa's Lumpy Gravy, an album which contains only two songs with multiple subdivisions. The indexes are a great help in understanding where the many subdivisions begin and end. >From: Steve Earley >Subject: Art > > Wonderfully, the aspect of reality that Fripp communicates through >his music is somehow more available to, or easily percieved by, the male >of the species. Women who enjoy Crimson as fully as the men that do are >fortunate, as they have a glimpse into the richness of emotion that is >common to males. Whoa!! Color me WAY creeped out. I don't think I'd want to know the subtext of this post. >From: Jamie Rothwell >Subject: Info on Macdonald and Giles > >If you know anything about this album >you would help me greatly. If you know the whereabouts of it in England >that would be wonderful as I will be moving there in less than two weeks (I >am currently residing in Canada). Any help you can give me will be greatly >appreciated as music like this should not be ignored. Please, let's not have 30 responses saying the exact same thing. Hold back and see if others save you the trouble of posting. Better yet, EMAIL Jamie. Eb np: Yoko Ono reissues ------------------------------ From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #403 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:58:09 -0700 > Here's something really cool I noticed on disc 4 of EPITAPH. Fripp ends > his guitar solo during "Schizoid Man" on a high note that feeds back. > MacDonald begins his sax solo on the same note, fading in as Fripp fades > out, creating a seamless transition between the two solos - a sort of live > "cross-fade." The first time I noticed this I thought 'Wow, I know the > sound quality is bad on this, but all of a sudden Fripp's guitar sounds > like a sax. Wait a minute, that is a sax. When did that happen?' :) That disc 4 is especially cool when they do the short coda ending that they don't perform on the other versions. Fripp, known for his speedy picking, just holds that wailing note with the rest of the band wailing away. Screw the sound quality, that's just a great performance. > With insufficent schemes, > Andy Acunzo > aacunzo at sbchem dot sunysb dot edu Another Guided By Voices fan, or does my memory deceive me. > The damage CD is OK, I sold my copy for $70 bucks and bought 4 ELP, 1 Sonny > Sharrock, 1 Coltrane (double), 1 Miles Davis (double), plus 1 Yes (all > used) cds. I saw Sylvian perform live in 1995 (solo) in NYC and he was > terrible. I saw Bryan Ferry (who Sylvian imitated at one point), and he > was pretty solid. I would like to see Fripp do some work with Ferry. > Damage is for those with a lot of money or with an obsessive need to > collect anything Fripp, as if own everything Fripp recording is going to > achieve some personal (meaningful) goal. I have never heard it before, but > I would be more interested in owning ELP's "Love Beach" (Lake and Sinfeld > are all over that album). There are many excellent bands out there (most > of them are not from the 80's or 90's), I have my favorites. I have no > regrets getting rid of Damage: pretty mediocre. But we must remember our > audience. We are living through a musical void where we make excuses for > music. > > steve Hey Steve, I'm not sure any CD is worth more than that barrage of great music you picked up. What CDs in particular were they? I'm especially interested in which Sharrock album you would find used. > It's been awhile since I've received, read, or posted to Elephant Talk > digest. I thought however that since I have more time to read email now, > I'd see what was up in the world of KC, the world's greatest progressive > supergroup. I checked my watch and suddenly realized that the last "real" > release by Crimso (ie: Studio release) was over two years ago. I'd have to > say it's high time for another monumental studio album by KC. "THRAK" > proves that 50-year-old men or no, they can compose brilliant music that > rocks the SHIT out of bands like Bush. I guess my real question is; "WHAT > ARE YOU DOING GUYS?????"...Sure, ThrAkAttAck is a great release, Epitaph is > a great release, but give us something new and utterly profound and > original... > Any ET'ers have news on this front for an out-of-touch Crimhead? The problem with maintaining the flow of KC is the change of the attitude of the group and its personnel. In the golden oldie day of Crimso, the band was the number one priority for everyone involved. Releases came practically every year. The new attitude of Crimso seems to be the Genesis attitude. "OK, we'll release an album every few years, do a big tour and then do our own thing for awhile." I for one am happy that Adrian had the time to do Op Zop Too Wah (even though it looks like it only took him a month or two) without the pressures of working on new Crimso material or rehearsing for another tour. Unfortunately, pressure and a heavy work schedule as a group can create some excellent recordings and speed up the evolution process (usually the price to pay is a personal one.) Bands like the Beatles and Husker Du were two such who released (at least) an album a year over an extended period (9 years & 8 years respectively), progressed quickly with their music, and then broke up. Hopefully, Crimso can strike a delicate balance between a creatively apathetic, happy band and a hyper-creative, depressed band. > > Can anyone tell me which recordings by Gentle Giant, UK, Jethro > >Tull, and Brian Eno are the best for a new listener? The Brian Eno album that best represents him would probably be Another Green World because it comprises instrumentals and vocal songs. It doesn't really represent the aggression of his earlier sound though. For that, you would need Roxy Music, For Your Pleasure or Eno's Here Come The Warm Jets (Fripp does some wicked guitar on both World & Jets.) Yes, Starless and Fracture are incredible, gigantic, monstrous, awesome, cool, gnarly, wicked, smoking, whacked, psycho and truly magically delicious! McDonald & Giles can still be ordered through Discipline mail order, I believe. Andy Gower Vancouver, Canada NP. Sonny Sharrock, Ask The Ages ------------------------------ From: Paolo Valladolid Subject: Experimental Gamelan Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 16:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Check out the New Music Indonesia series on the Lyrichord label, which features compositions by the more progressive Indonesian composers. The last track of volume 2 in particluar may be of interest to those of you who enjoyed "B'Boom". Paolo Valladolid --------------------------------------------------------------- |Moderator of Digital Guitar Digest, an Internet mailing list |\ |for Music Technology and Stringed Instruments | \ ---------------------------------------------------------------- | \ finger pvallado at waynesworld dot ucsd dot edu for more info \ | \ http://waynesworld.ucsd.edu/DigitalGuitar/home.html \| ----------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 21:50:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Ref - KC Productivity/ET #401 In response to your comments, please consider: Between 1994-1997, Robert Fripp has released 4 new soundscapes Adrian Belew has released 3 new albums Tony Levin has released 1 (2nd due out September) Trey Gunn has release 1 Bill Bruford and Tony Levin have been involved in the John Wetton Project, and these are only the main productions by these artists. The final output that appear under the banner of King Crimson results from the personal creativity of the group members, which develops - one way of looking at it - to a zenith in the form of the next KC release. As you intimate, when the product arrives, it is worth the wait. Camzone P.S. - If you are interested in Bill Frisell or other Fripp-like guitarists, check out the works of David Torn (some works with Bill Bruford and Tony Levin) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 02 Aug 97 22:38:42 EDT From: Mike Stack Subject: in defense of david sylvian Having seen one of my absolute favorite singers and musicians been ripped to shreds by the listies here on ET in the past couple digests, I felt it about time to step out of my litle silence and say a bit about DS in defense to what I view as his unbelievable talents. Yes, I'd put him on a scope, talent wise, with Fripp. Something which may well be considered a sin given the general opinion of DS here. But nonetheless, I find his singing voice to be absolutely wonderous. Certainly, the man's voice is a lot different from what we're used to, but one ETer accused him of a "three note range". These must be some pretty odd notes, I'll say that. Certainly the man does not carry the vocal range of Freddie Mercury or Captain Beefheart (which is an odd combination to list...), but he's got a decent range, he's got a beautiful tone to his voice, and he sings with emotion, something few can pull off well. _The First Day_ and _Damage_ are only the doorway, I actually think RF may've gotten in the way a bit of DS, Sylvian's music is certainly never that heavy without Fripp, and it seems as if this restricted DS. Sylvian's _Secrets of the Beehive_ and Rain Tree Crow's self-titled album are two of the best things ever recorded, IMHO. The man's got a knack for music, and when he writes, it fits his singing better than when he does with Fripp. Now, the problem I see is this-- people don't like DS because he is dramatically different from others Fripp has worked with, and is the only dominant musician really Fripp played with. Belew came close, which would explain the dislike of 80s Crimson by many here. Of course, for my somewhat militant opinions, I may get flamed, but I hope for better from you guys... mike ------------------------------ From: "Jason Bell" Subject: Sylvian Spice Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 10:15:57 +0100 Just like to say that the Spice Girls nestle quite nicely with my David Sylvian stuff and my King Crimson stuff. And I enjoy all three. Jason Bell Web Designer Email : jason dot bell at dial dot pipex dot com or Jason dot Bell at PEmail dot net Web : Homepage - http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/jason.bell ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: E-BOW and I BOW Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 09:44:27 -0700 I bow and give thanks to the many who responded to my questions concerning the E-bow. For after receiving everyone's input on this topic, I have ordered one from a music store and now I am currently awaiting the arrival. For it is not long now before I can begin to create the effects I have longed to be able to replicate originally created by the master, Mr. Robert Fripp. True, I will not become the "NEW" Robert Fripp, but I certainly will have fun attempting to do so. :) Thanks again. Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:48:37 -0700 From: caseyd Subject: CD recommendation: new (NZ) gamelan music I was lucky enough to see this group on a swing through NZ a couple of years ago - they are quite good! I will strive to snarf up a CD...although I expect it to be difficult. the name of the group means something like "expanding light of ever increasing complexity", if I caught it right. A fine description for the aesthetic that draws me to both King Crimson and gamelan music...and esp. the new soundscapes. *------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Casey Dunn * TechOblique, Inc. * 229 Polaris Ave, Suite 15 * Mt.View Ca. 94043 *------------------------------------------------------------------------------ vox:415.961.2686 fax:415.961.2694 web:www.techoblique.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:16:17 -0400 From: Sid Smith Subject: Tingles Ah, the old tingle factor. As somebody else was saying it's one of those great mysteries. What works for one person doesn't always work for another or if it does it might not be for the same reasons. Time and place can be important factors in evoking tingle. The trouble with Crimson is that there are tingles aplenty. The delicate embellishments by Cross on Book Of Saturday and the delicate solo by Fripp at the end of Exiles coupled with Wetton's vocals. The screeching between talking Drum and LTIA pt.2 does it for me (particularly when rattling the neighbours). Of course the ultimate has to be Starless. I always feel sad when I hear it. It seems to underline the ineffable melancholy of the fact that the band at that time was no more. ------------------------------ From: jlack at auran dot com (Jamie Lack) Subject: Post in ET 403 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:38:35 +1000 In reply to Steve Early's post in ET#403 Somehow you seem to evaluate the music through a process that, at least sometimes neglects the other members of the band. I wonder if you have ever played in a band, or even expressed ideas with others in a synergetic manner. if you had, I would suspect that your talk about "art" would be less defined and less forceful. Why even bother to define these things, they transcend words, that is the whole point. On the occasions that I have spontaneously created music, with others, the result is a wonderful blend of energy from most, if not all those involved. If you assume that Fripp can control the other members of the band, steering them to his will, then you are mistaken. Can you imagine writing music with any Crimson incarnation? Do you think players of this calibre are playing minor roles? Imagine controlling Jamie Muir or Tony Levin, or Bill Bruford. I only need to point to comments from the (many) members Crimson has had, including Robert, that repeatedly maintain the HEAVY creative atmosphere produced by all members. I believe all of these players are worthy of far more respect than they get, especially from people who claim to appreciate the music. And the best way I can think of showing my respect to King Crimson, is to leave them alone and let them get on with their lives. (This is actually much easier for me than you might think, since i live in Australia, I will have almost no chance of ever seeing King Crimson or Robert Fripp, playing music or whatever.) Now, as for your brilliantly incoherent rant about the male emotions inherent in Robert Fripp's music.. Please, if you cannot change your ignorance, then stop perpetuating divisive ideology. Some of what you say rings, true, but why? None of us are innocent in this, but we are often guilty of making cheap shot's when it comes to communicating with others, especially the opposite sex, or those of a different race, culture, whatever. It actually takes a tremendous amount of effort to COMMUNICATE with other humans, and often we are faced with gulfs created by tradition, conditioning, peers, media, amongst others. I must say, being a male, that I have found an extraordinary lack of richness amongst other males. Most are pitifully weak creatures, . For more, hear what Henry Rollins has to say. If you listened to what Robert says sometimes, you would perceive his attitude towards his physical self. He often feels distant from it, as if he "inhabits" Robert Fripp and is merely existing in him. There is a wealth of information out there, enough to answer most of our questions, this post recommends USING IT! As an aside, some members of the animal kingdom other than humans, have been shown to be capable of 'artistic' expression, such as dolphins, apes etc. I suppose they just don't have the ability to ram it down our throats. I wish a lot of people, including ET'ers would just take the time............ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 00:10:18 -0700 From: Herb Boardman Subject: Info on MacDonald, Giles Organization: Ministry of Stacking Things on Top of One Another Greetings, all. In ET #403, Jamie Rothwell requests information on the Mac/Giles album. I don't own the album, but noticed a Japanese import CD of the album at two different Circuit City's.(of all places!) It was about $22. On the back, it lists the players. From what I remember, here is a list: Ian MacDonald: woodwinds, saxes, flutes, keyboards, guitars, vocals Mike Giles: drums, vocals, and something amusing which I can't quite recall Peter Giles: bass Steve Winwood(!): keyboards, vocals There is one or two more players involved, but I can't recall anything specific. Regards, Mike Holst ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 01:19:19 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Mark Craney Benefit and ELP Hello Friends: Doane Perry of Jethro Tull and DGM recording artist Bill Forth of Ten Seconds recently approached me regarding a benefit project they've put together for a close friend of theirs, drummer Mark Craney. Mark is the consumate musician who loves music in all its varied forms. He has performed Progressive music with Jethro Tull, Funk with Tower of Power, R'n'B with Eric Burdon, Jazz with Jean Luc Ponty, pop with James Taylor and Gino Vanelli, and much, much more! Unfortunately, Mark is experiencing some serious medical problems and is presently on the transplant list at the UCLA Medical Center to await a double kidney and pancreas transplant! It was the idea of Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull to put together a CD as a benefit towards Mark's considerable medical expenses. Mark's good friends Doane and Bill stepped forward to handle most of the coordination of this project. And an incredible roster of friends came forth to participate in this event. The result is a completely unique CD, "Mark Craney & Friends/Something With a Pulse," which represents a range of artists that would normally not appear together under the same musical umbrella. Mark is the musical and personal thread that weaves all of these musicians together. There is a wide spectrum of performances, some featuring Mark while others are a tribute to him. You'll find some unreleased live tracks here and some new studio tracks recorded specifically for this project. Most of the price of this disc goes directly to Mark to pay his medical expenses. The artists and tracks on this project are as follows: Jethro Tull/Black Sunday (live) featuring Eddie Jobson Eric Burdon/I'm Your Man Song contributed by Leonard Cohen Tower of Power/What Is Hip? (live) Mark's Brothers/Listen to Your Heart featuring Alex Ligertwood of Santana and Bill Champlin Gino Vanelli/Brother to Brother (live) featuring Darryl Steurmer Talking Drums/Guaramina Fairport Convention/Slipjigs and Reels Mike Keneally/Craney Miller, Craney, Miller/Blockhead (live) Terry Bozzio/Klangfarben Melodie Mark's Brothers/They Don't Make'em Like They Used To featuring Bill Champlin and Alex Ligertwood Thread/Hands of Kindness featuring Jethro Tull's Doane Perry Ian Anderson/Song for Jeffrey with Martin Barre James Taylor/New Hymn (live) You'll find this disc with graphics and soundbite on our New Label page at . I certainly hope you'll take the time to check out this album that is nothing short of a joyous celebration of a great musician. And while you're there, check out Doane Perry's Thread on the same page! Since we put up our page for King Biscuit Flower Hour Records , it has proved to be quite a popular page. And it generated a lot of questions as to what was coming out next. Well, I found out. The next King Biscuit release will be Emerson, Lake & Palmer! The release date will be August 26 (coming up fast!). The album will be a double disc set with the second disc containing music and CD-ROM material! As soon as I get a promo, I'll put up some graphics and soundbites. But for now you can pre-order this album! And while we're on the subject, don't forget that we have Keith Emerson's Christmas album on our New Label page . And we've also got the Greg Lake special autographed edition King Biscuit CD's at . While we're on the subject of ELP, they've just completed a tour of Europe including a very special engagement at the Montreux Jazz Festival. After a very short break (one week) their back on the road again! This time to South America, to be followed by North America next month!!! The current schedule is as follows: AUGUST 97 6 TEATRO GUAIRA CURITIBA BRAZIL 8 GRAN REX BUENOS AIRES ARGENTINA 9 TEARRO OPERA BUENOS AIRES ARGENTINA 10 T.B.A. GRAMADO BRAZIL 12 ESTADIO CHILE SANTIAGO CHILE 13 ESTADIO CHILE SANTIAGO CHILE 15 MINEIRINHO GYMNASIUN BELO HORIZONTE BRAZIL 16 METROPOLITAN RIO DE JANEIRO BRAZIL 18 OLYMPIA SAO PAULO BRAZIL 19 OLYMPIA SAO PAULO BRAZIL 20 OLYMPIA SAO PAULO BRAZIL 23 T.B.A. LA PAZ BOLIVIA 27 MUELLE UNO LIMA PERU 29 AUDITORIO COCA-COLA MONTEREY MEXICO 30 T.B.A. GUADALAJARA MEXICO SEPTEMBER 97 1 AUDITORIO NACIONAL MEXICO CITY MEXICO 2 AUDITORIO NACIONAL MEXICO CITY MEXICO US TOUR STARTS 6 WOLF TRAP FARM PARK VIENNA VA 7 OAKDALE THEATRE WALLINGFORD CT 8 STATE THEATRE NEW BRUNSWICK NJ 10 BEACON THEATRE NEW YORK NY 11 TOWER THEATER PHILADELPHIA PA 12 HARBORLIGHTS BOSTON MA 13 SANDS HOTEL & CASINO ATLANTIC CITY NJ 14 WESTBURY MUSICFAIR WESTBURY NY 17 NAUTICA CLEVELAND OH 18 THE PALACE ALBURN HILLS MI 19 ROSEMONT THEATRE CHICAGO IL 20 RIVERSIDE THEATER MILWAUKEE WI 21 FOX THEATER ST. LOUIS MO 23 UNION HALL PHOENIX AZ 25 UNIVERSAL AMPHITHEATER LOS ANGELES CA 26 CONCORD PAVILION CONCORD CA 27 RENO AMPHITHEATER RENO NV 28 VISALIA CENTER FRESNO CA 30 HUMPHREY'S SAN DIEGO CA Hopefully they'll be coming to your town. Their coming pretty close to mine. I plan to catch their show at the Nautica in Cleveland. Hope to see some of you there! Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 00:46:30 -0500 From: Neal Brown Subject: Crimsonian styles, the forbidden name and KC, women and KC, LP/CD In ET #402 Steve Early wrote an interesting post that I have three brief (relatively speaking) comments on. The most impressive thing to me about Crimson is the fact that their four main periods are so markedly different. Compare "Discipline," "Starless," "Moonchild," and "Sex Sleep Eat Drink Dream." Those four songs are so different, it's mind-blowing. No other band that I can think of has done that well in that many wildly different styles (Miles *might* be able to make that claim, with bop, cool, and fusion...it's debatable). And I think that the concept of Fripp sitting in the dark while playing live is something that is somehow extraodrinary is kind of absurd....we're used to attention-getting pyrotechnic displays at concerts (perhaps to take your attention from the music?). Case in point: Pink Floyd's absolutely extravagant setups for "The Wall." In contrast, bands *should* do what Fripp does, which is focus all the attention on the music. (If I want to see flying pigs, I'll see a movie.) As for whether Crimson is a prgressive band, let me say this: the term "progressive" is rather vague, and I put KC under the prog umbrella simply because it's such a catchall. (Whether or not KC deserves the moniker or not is a rather silly point to debate anyway.) And as for the discussion about females and Crimson...well, I suppose it's also a rather silly point. I mean, most drummers/percussionists are male, and most flautists are female....there isn't a real reason for it, it just *is* that way. P.S.--Oh, and if you don't mind Toby, one final word on the analog/digital thread...as someone who doesn't know beans about resolution and signal-to-noise ratios and all that other technical garbage, I can still confidently the best kind of music is neither digital nor analog: it is LIVE! Get off yer arses and hear it live. Nowhere near as exact but (as KC fans should well know) the unpredictability is a strength, not a weakness, even if it ends up sounding like raw crap. ;) ------------------------------ From: "JP Murphy" Subject: Eno for the Newbie Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 23:33:28 -0400 Elephant Talk from et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk said on 7/31/97 5:35 AM: > Can anyone tell me which recordings by Gentle Giant, UK, Jethro >Tull, and Brian Eno are the best for a new listener? As far as Eno recordings go, other than his '70's stuff (e.g.. "Here Come The Warm Jets"), "Nerve Net" (mid '90's) is a fave 'o mine. Fripp plays some crafty guitar on this CD, as well as on "Warm Jets". These are only a beginning, enjoy... Jeggy at Cohasset dot Mass [http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4099] ------------------------------ From: djdowling at earthlink dot net Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 22:16:54 -0400 Subject: Sylvians voice & "Damaged" listeners Saddened and confused by discussion of Sylvian as "weak link" to Damage. The notion that Sylvian is an appendage to the "band" is absurd. Sylvian is a songwriter and multi-instrumentalist: dislike of his vocal style does not discredit his musicianship. That "the band" should find another "singer" is a thought born of ignorance. The band is composed of all its members- Sylvian as cheif songwriter. Enlightened listeners will recall Sylvian's past albums which have featured Fripp and know that the partnership has roots (pieces where Fripp has no songwriting credit come to mind). One opinion: "Wave" is perhaps one of the most beautiful songs that I know of, the relationship of Fripp/Sylvian is a partnership- the fruit it bears is delicious. As for a 'new' singer for 'the band'...you may be interested to know that Mr. Roth is looking for work...perhaps his "range" is more pleasing to you. -Dave Dowling. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 17:21:19 -0400 From: Rich White II Organization: No organization, whatsoever... Subject: Possible Productions.... All these PP comments - I guess I should speak up too... I ordered a bunch of things thru PP a few months ago (5/13/97), including the Epitaph boxed set, the Ten Seconds CD, an autographed VROOM CD (which I never could find around here), and a the Epitaph poster... When I received my order - i noticed that it was all packaged in a normal "mailer" envelope - which made me cringe - because I figured the poster would be FOLDED... (I hate folded posters!).... Upon opening the package - the VROOM CD case and the Ten Seconds cases were both busted, but what was worse, the busted-off corners of the cases were NOT in the mailer, which led me to beleive they were shipped that way - and there was no sign of the poster. I immediately called PP - and was a bit fumed - but the guy at the other end (sorry, never got his name) assured me that the poster would be mailed out in a seperate tube (although there was nothing on the invoice that told me this) and he would drop two cases in the mail to replace my busted ones. Two days later - the replacement cases came. No complaints there... BUT: I am still waiting for the poster - Were they ever shipped? Or is mine lost forever in the deep, dark realms of the postal system? I'd call - but to argue over a $7.50 poster and point fingers back and forth between myself (gee, am I lying?) or the USPS (lost?) or PP (was it ever sent?) isn't worth the effort. Maybe some year my poster will show up? With 2 inches of dust on it and an apology from my mailman? .... I won't hold my breath ... not worth Otherwise - no complaints are far as prices and avail. are concerned. People would look at me kinda funny when I'd ask if they had the new Epitaph or Ten Seconds CD around here - so mailorder is really my only option. TTFN... Rich -- Rich White II H: rwhite2 at ptdprolog dot net W: rwhite at cimnet-folders dot com Visit the cellar of vintage computers @ http://home.ptd.net/~rwhite2 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 15:36:14 -0400 From: Michael Peters Subject: Re: Musical Dreams Christopher Jepson wrote, >Someday I would like to get really good at the techniques = >of "lucid dreaming" and see how much control I can get = >over writing dream music. I heard that this is how Richard D. James (aka Aphex Twin) produced some of his music, especially 'Selected Ambient Works Vol. 2' which is very dreamy and strange. He went through a long phase of sleep deprivation to get to the point where he could control his lucid dreams. ___________ Michael Peters http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 19:12:54 +0200 From: Claas Kazzer Organization: Dept. of English Studies, University of Leipzig (Germany) Subject: The Gates of Paradise - Short Review Hi everyone, since I haven't read any review of it here are a few thoughts on THE GATES OF PARADISE Vol. 1. (DGM 9608A) I received my copy middle of July. It came in a slip cover very much like the inner covers of EPITAPH. A letter accompanying it said that the the remaining four CDs will be available sometime in autumn in a box set and that it "will include three volumes of THE GATES OF PARADISE and two volumes of the re-mastered 1999. This 5-CD box will be priced as a 4-CD box set [...], so the first volume of 1999, which many of you already have, is effectively being included as a free CD." The price for the first CD available now will be deducted from the box price should one decide to buy it. Also available is a new single called PIE JESU (DGM 9704) -- PIE JESU is one of the tracks from the GATES CD. The slip cover image is by John Miller. GATES Vol. 1 sounds like one big continuous piece (50 odd mins) and is subdivided into 4 major sections which themselves are subdivided on the cover into various tracks not trackable through the CD player. The listing is: 1 THE OUTER DARKNESS 23:38 i The Outer Darkness 5:02 ii Perimeter I 1:19 iii Perimeter II 0:58 iv Wailing I 1:58 v Perimeter III 1:15 vi Wailing II 3:26 vii Perimeter IV 1:23 viii Wailing III 3:05 ix Black Light 4:05 x A Wailing And Gnashing of Teeth 1:01 2 THE GATES OF PARADISE 13:56 i Abandonment to Divine Providence 5:22 ii Pie Jesu 8:34 3 THE OUTER DARKNESS 10:17 xi In Fear And Trembling Of The Lord 10:17 4 THE GATES OF PARADISE 4:48 iii Acceptance 4:48 The music seems to circle around spiritual ascent, and as the titles of the subsections imply, most of it is rather dark -- nevertheless makes for wonderfully challenging listening -- the two GATES sections being the lighter ones. However, I somehow feel I'd like to go on and listen to the remainder of the set: this disc leaves you wanting to hear how the whole process ends musically. The soundscaping to be heard on the disc has clearly evolved compared to previous soundscape recordings, it is more convincingly ferocious (e.g.. the WAILINGs), somehow seems to have more width. The subsections sometimes merge into each other, at other times seem to have been stuck one behind the other. Unfortunately, the disc gives little information except as listing Robert Fripp as "guitarist and soundscaper" and David Singleton as "digital composer" -- whatever that means. So much for now. I hope you'll enjoy it. Claas ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: CDs, etc. Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:25:34 -0400 Mike Dickson, in 401, responds at some length to my response to The Analog Kid, his major point being that the playing time available is too great for most bands to fill: "Bands are now more or less expected to turn out seventy minutes worth of music for every album...." I don't agree, on a number of levels. First, I have not noticed that many, much less most, albums (not compilations, not with added bonus tracks) are routinely clocking in at 70 minutes. Even 60 is unusual, and 55 seems more typical. Even many compilation albums (like EPITAPH) run in the low 60's - although around 20 additional minutes are available (around 84, total). Second, so what? Do you want to go back to arbitrary limits imposed by earlier recording media? 3 minutes for a 10" 78? A total of maybe 25-30 minutes for a 10" lp? 12" lp limits were constantly being pushed (toward 30 minutes a side) by bands like Genesis in the mid-70's, with unpleasant results for the innermost grooves (despite attempts to program music for those grooves which didn't have too much bass or overall volume - a tracking necessity). I have live jazz albums where single performances had to be divided into arbitrary parts 1 & 2 to fit side-length restrictions. The simple fact is that some bands have had trouble filling even 40 minutes, and other bands would have no trouble filling 80 minutes. This will never change. And no one is requiring bands to record CDs longer than they wish. At some point creative decisions have to be made in putting together any album. More to the point is Mike's thoughts on structure. I agree with him about this. I miss having a Side 1 and a Side 2 to an album. I used to have favorite sides of certain albums, sides I played more often than the flip sides. But I don't miss having to turn the album over (I know there were a few esoteric players that did this, or tracked both sides without turning it over, but let's Be Real about this...) and I can think of no reason why a CD can't be "programmed" to best emotional effect, rather like a concert. (And I like the fact that most actual concert performances these days will fit, whole, on one CD.) In 403 several people rose to my defense (or that of my position) to Gordon Emory Anderson, who felt that I "probably never heard how good the best analog sounds." In fact, Gordon, I HAVE heard systems which their proud owners felt were "the best," and for which they spent tens of thousands of dollars. And I've worked in many recording studios - and noted the startling difference between playback in the studio and the ultimate recorded (lp) playback. (CDs come MUCH closer. It has to do with dynamic range.) But the point is that this is The Real World. Very little of the 10,000 lps I own are "best" in any audio sense: they're commercially-pressed lps, many of them with built-in, off-the-shelf defects. I bought them (and this is VERY important) for the MUSIC on them. In a number of cases I bought German and Japanese pressings (of Beatles, King Crimson, some others) in order to get the best possible vinyl. I am not interested in esoteric test-pressings of test-tones. I am interested in hearing music I enjoy without annoying intrusions. I have a Formula 4 tone arm (uni-pivot, viscous-damped) just to better track warped lps. It's mounted on an Ariston turntable. Not top-dollar, maybe, but at just under $1000 in the 70's, not cheap either. The real question is why I, or anyone, should need to invest thousands of dollars in equipment, in order to listen to my favorite music. Any reproduction system that requires that kind of investment is beyond most listeners. (My personal suspicion is that most people can't hear the difference but have an emotional commitment to enjoying the results of all that money they spent.) To me, the test is this: Which sounds better - the lp or the CD (original, not remastered) of any early Genesis album, up through SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND? I used to think that those lps were wretchedly engineered, but the (first) CDs (which used the lp eqs and mixes) proved me wrong. It was wretched MASTERING that did those lps in. Dynamics were badly compressed, backing vocals disappeared in the sonic mud, and the lps sounded thin, tinny. Why? They averaged over 25 minutes a side. (The remastered CDs sound even better, of course. Which reminds me to mention that THE YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE CDs are straight from the original lp compilation; not the Definitive Editions....) I've gone on long enough, here. Let's not yearn for the turntable rumble of yore, just because we grew up with it. I listened to my first records on a windup Victrola, played with fiber needles that wore out after one (3-minute) play. I don't want to go back to that. -- TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:51:05 -0600 From: rhino at indy dot net (rhino) Subject: Musician vs Non-Musician and Tingle > In ET #401 Chuck Biel said: >This next question intends to imply no insult. >Given the potential intellectual capacity of most King Crimson >enthusiasts, why do we not see more postings on the content of KC's >music? > Harmonic analysis, access to transcriptions of solos/passages or >complete scores along with references to world music influences and >other related factors would dignify these editions and put credit where >credit is due. >I have challenged myself to meet the responsibility (as a musician >/listener) to delve into the workings of the music offered and I extend >this challenge to all kind Crimson watchers. I'll use a Mark Twain analogy here to the best of my recollection to explain my own personal reasons for not delving into the content of KC music. As the story goes Twain grew up along the mighty Missisippi river dreaming about it's majesty and mystery. What lay beyond each new bend? The river constantly changed, rising swelling and meandering. This constant flux was the backdrop for an active mind to wonder. As a man he became a river boat captain skilled at navigating down the river knowing just where to steer to miss the hidden jagged rocks and to avoid the shallows of the murky churning water. But learning every nuance of the river took away it's majesty and mystery and his sense of wonder left him. The river had been conquered and made transparent. I'd prefer not to disect the content of KC music for just this reason. I'm not a musician so I prefer to allow the music to keep it's mystery. For me it's the mystery that makes the music whole rather than fragmented into individual elements. Music is constructed to be presented as a whole, I believe. It's purpose for me is to be listened to and enjoyed rather than be deconstructed and robbed of it's intent. That's just how I feel about it, musicians my necessarily dissagree. >Alan dot Maguire at mercer dot ie >Subject: Starless riff. > > Stewart Murrell wrote: > >So, I must have listened to Starless on the Red album about fifty > >times over the years, and on each occasion when that main theme comes > >back in towards the end (around 11:20 into the track) I get 'the > >tingles' and allmy hairs stand on end. Very odd. > > Dont worry, it happens to all of us, I imagine. > > >(Also wondering whether anyone understands *why* it happens -- > >although that's probably not very relevant to ET.) > > Yes its relevant - but if we understood why it happens it might not > be as evocative. Mystery is such an important part of the music we > like. Maybe thats why I never learned to play many KC songs.....or > maybe Its because I'm not that good. And this is the exclaimation point to my statements above. cheers, rhino ------------------------------ From: Nancy Mack Subject: G3 cancelled in San Diego 8/2 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 12:00:31 -0700 disappointing weekend for Fripp fans in San Diego... got to the venue about two hours early to see Robert, as suggested by earlier ET posts... I've never seen an emptier-looking stage.... we sat around for an hour in complete denial (yes, any minute now they'll be setting up... where's the bus?) no notice at the box office, but Ticketmonster shows a new date of October 3. I'll be back in October, but my out-of-town friends won't. Anybody need 2 lawn tickets??? nancy in San Diego ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 18:39:04 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: New album? Hello ETers, A friend at work subscribes to a music releases magazine called "Ice". This includes new releases, re-releases, and bootlegs. A recent issue mentioned an album by a band called "Bladik". The membership? Elton Dean (Soft Machine), Paul Rogers (Free), Keith Tippett and Tony Levin, on the Cuneiform label. Anyone have any more info? Sounds pretty interesting. All these guys are -really- good. J. P. Hovercraft jprice at trentu dot ca http://ivory.trentu.ca/~jprice "aLSO THRaK ZaRaTHUSTRa" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:13:16 -0400 (EDT) From: dumela at nicom dot com (tj) Subject: RE: The Golden Section >From: Christopher Jepson >This seems like just the kind of thing that Fripp would think was cool. >Does anybody know if he has employed the Golden Section in any of his >music? Well, going a bit off base here, many of us would be familiar with the Twyla Tharp dance piece _The Catherine Wheel_ which has music composed by David Byrne. The most intense part is called _The Golden Section_. (I saw this live in Melbourne, Australia in Feb. 1988 in a nearly empty theatre. I even caught up with the sound man during the intermission and asked him to pump up the volume for the GS, which he did.) The math structure of the GS was unknown to me and I'm a statistician. I like it. thanks Christopher Any gig reviews of the D. Byrne tour? Please send them direct. [Ginsburg, Leary, Burroughs, Fela - my heart keeps blinking] ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" Subject: The Opening of Elephant Tape Date: Mon, 04 Aug 1997 20:28:07 PDT Elephant Tape is now open at: http://www.geocities.com/~kenzak/etape/ Elephant Tape is an internet jukebox for ETers, which presents music using the Shockwave streaming audio system. We'd like to thank Tony Levin for giving us permission to include a track from his new album. Thanks also to ETers Dave Eichenberger and Misha Penton for sending in some of the compositions they recorded as "Future Perfect". If any ETers would like to have their music appear on Elephant Tape, please write to make arrangements. Students of Guitar Craft are also invited to send in recordings. We can take submissions off of cassette, DAT, CD-R, or wav files on a zip disc. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: alans at agora dot rdrop dot com (Alan Shearin) Subject: Bill Frisell & John McLaughlin Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 04:21:33 GMT In ET398 Bill Frisell was again introduced as an excellent guitarist. Then off CTG mentioned a brief meeting with John Mclaughlin. Of slight interest ETr's is a brief article in the June issue of Tower's Pulse magazine. One of the pieces on John Mclaughlin's next album will be for four guitarists: Mclaughlin, John Scofield, Bill Frisell and possible Allan Holsdworth. Maybe this will expand to more that just one piece, and then a real guitar tour {G^4}? Alan Shearin Portland, OR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:57:01 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: EMOTONAL ASPIC DREAMS SYLVAIN At last the correct response to Aspic. Both Larks and Aspic were considered delicacies once upon a time. Sir Kay in one of the King Arthur Texts say that he is going off to oversee the making of aspic for the ladies. Doesn't anyone eat tomato aspic in the summer anymore? I have allways thought that a lark drowning in aspic would sound quite a bit like the start of the song of which we are speaking. All those whistles, shrieks and muddled voices . Once back in the early days a pal and I decipered the muddled vocal track to discover that it was about being yelled at for not being good enough. Maybe this was RFS first zing at the music industry. (tho we thought at the time it was parents screaming.) O, Steve E., tho you're letter was very intellegent let us not start the male vs female emotions debate. RF puts me in touch with my feelings, which are certainly not masculine. I am very glad he helps you define yours as well. and would you be surprised to find out that guys emotional responses are just as predictable as womens? We are all creatures of many facets. KC music reflects this. Maybe I do like KC because I happen to like guys emotions...they are just as rich as ours. But I never once thought that maybe RFs emotions were on the feminine side .....hey, this gives me a chance to SCREAM....MY FAVE PET-PEAVE IS AT PEOPLE WHO SAY RF PLAYS WITH NO FEELING!!PHOOEY!!HE PLAYS FROM THE HEART!!!so there. ahh, I feel much better now that that is clear. Now Steve, lets be good girls and boys and admit that the emotions that come out of RFs music put us all in touch with ourselves regardless of gender. Ok? and needless to say Starless puts everyones hair on end with musical orgasm. Doug, musical dreams are very special. You have tapped into a place of great inspiration. Only you know in your gut or not, if it was the Crimson King. He comes where he can find a vibrational receptor. Consider yourself lucky, and expect to hear the song someday in real life. Musical dreams are a form of telepathy David Sylvians voice is a wonderful insterment, who care if it doesn't have an incredible range. It's rich and warm, full of male emotion.(maybe you have to be a woman to get into it. Ha!) Believe in good fairys, Gail PS..Toby, your pup is a cutie-pie. I'm sure he'll grow into some manors. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 00:52:57 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: FRIPPERY OCCULT TRICKS GURDJIEFF LONG LETTER Hello my Red Friends, (Toby,I am compelled to post this because my alter-ego Auntie Gail feels responsible for all those wee'uns coming up in the Halls of the Crimson King.) I have noticed that some of you ETers are just kids. (I was a baby rocker when KC entered my world too.)I say to you with much affection;keep your flame going, keep your precocious intellegence and hearing open. Forever. Thre have been many posts on ET lately about the occult. Since metaphysics is my profession I feel like I need to take you youngsters under my wing. Fripp has mentioned in various places that he tampered with a Witch and lived to regret it. Rest assured, for those who have wondred, Crimsons involvement in the occult was up and running from the inception.Hence the alchemical name, and much of the lyrics, cover art etc. If one Knows what it is one is looking for it is all over the place. As Chris Jepson (ET 402) mentions occult means hidden, nothing good, nor bad. Knowledge is what we make it. Almost all of todays New Age stuff was very hard to find info 20 years ago, For instance I had to drive 60 miles to get any astrology books. We are in times , my young friends when the veils between heaven and earth are dropping . These are special times. We all have our place to uphold in the spiritualizing of our mother planet. Because you are allready interested in KC, you have the proper vibration flowing for an inborn interest in all things occult/metaphysical. So, my budding baby Crimheads this is directed at you with all sincerity. You follow a reluctant Master, named Fripp. His ernest self-disclosure, talent, wit,good heart and hard work hold him in good stead.His work on himself and for others is a fine example of a lightworker.In following him you will learn more about yourselves, than of him,this is what his craft does, if he has done his job right. Please take Fripps advice when he says "Wicca is a hard road to follow." (Thanks Chris J. for that )and to STAY AWAY from th Ouija Board!Take it from your Auntie Gail as well, STAY AWAY from them. Ouija Boards are deceptive, cruel,full of unnatural trouble and in no way do they have anything to do with good vibes and lightworking. I am not saying leave metaphysics alone if you truely have a heart felt calling. (Parents please don't burn me at the stake. If you guide your kiddies now, even if they are odd, they will serve God)Self-Knowledge-Gnosis-is what any path of seeking is all about.It doesn't matter if its Wican, Chsistian, Jewish, Islam, Alchemical,whatever.It is all about our relationship with God. If you must use a Talking Board , I can recomend 'The Psychic Circle Message Board' by Zinner and Farber. It was a decade in design and made to keep the negitive out, as a counterpoint to th infamous Ouija. However, it is not always accurate. Whenever one is working with tools of divination one must remember thiThey are just tools. Crystal gazing, tarot cards, talking boards, pendulums, runes, etc. They are all tools. Not the power. Do not attempt to use these things and get psychic as a game. Do not use any method when one is high, wasted, drunk, wacked out, angry, trying to scare oneself silly, or when one is depressed. What is really happening when one is doing this is that one is trying to connect with ones inner voice. The Godself...inner knowing. Ultimately this leads to a connection with The Creator, which is what we are all seeking.This is the holly of hollys. Devine intervention, and dialog. Treat it as sacred. Respect and honor the seeking. I am sure if one were to ask Fripp (sorry, Robt. for assuming I know your reply )he would say this is serious bussiness. I am telling you too, this is serious !Occult investigations have serious ramifacations for the rest of ones life. I have seen the most beautiful doors open thru magic, but I have also seen friends lives irrevocably ruined. If it feels wrong. Don't do it. If it feels right ask for whitelight, ones guides and the grace of the all loving God to protect one. .Work hard, study hard, keep the faith. Work with truth, love(not lust).Do not work with ego, power trips and deception.What goes around comes around , and sometimes very quickly. If something frightens , immediatly call on the power of Jesus to intervine with his protection. ( I don't care if one doesn't believe, do it.!)Stay away from false manifestations. Your gut will tell if its wrong, or right. If you think that I am ranting, I ask you to take a good look at Fripp before the witch girl from the USA, then during the time(72) before he met up with John Bennetts school and Gurdjieff. It's very obvious that something is quite wrong and has a hold on him. Not everyone has the grace, or strength to pull out of something this heavy. Ask my old friend , Tom, he's still in the State Mental Hospital.There, you have been warned. Like my Granny said "mind you P's and Q's" Second part of letter: It is interesting to me that someone would accuse Gurdjieff of being a con man. RF, himself confess in the Epitaph Booklet to being, mecievious and deceptive. Just like Gurdjieff proclaimed himself to be. One of the aspects of the Trickster in Native American mythology, is to show one only what they can precieve. This is exactly what the Gurdjieff method does. And someone asked if RF was still doing the Fourth way work. My ,yes, it's all over his every action. Once it becomes a part of who you are it sticks.For those of you who are interested one of the best introductory books on the Fourth Way is called 'The Gurdjieff Work' by Kathleen Riordan Speeth (Putnam Books) if that tickles you interest go onto Ouspensky and Bennett. Beelzebub is aching in my belly-o my feet are heavy and I'm rooted in my weillos and I want to get away and go from all these mirror windows I look at eye level and it isn't good enough and then I find it out, when I take a good look up there's a hole in the sky with a big eyeball calling me.... come up and be a kite..... oh, what a diamond. (vintage Kate Bush) Believe in goodness, Auntie Gail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 00:39:06 -0700 From: alphacat at loop dot com Subject: RF, KC & Prog Hello. If this topic isn't already been declared "Off Limits" by the omnipresent Toby (great job getting ET out so often, cheers), let me throw my 1 1/2 cents worth in to the never ending prog, pro/con, debate. David MaClennan in #401 summed up my thinking by basically saying that if Yes broke up after CttE or ELP after BSS, then we'd have a different view. I agree. I basically lost interest in prog about 1976 as the music got more fusion-y and/or pop-oriented. Not good or bad; it just didn't have the same impact. Chris Squire was quoted as saying that punk or being dinosaurs didn't kill prog, Mahavishnu Orchestra did, ie all of sudden everyone wanted to play a million notes a minute, instead of concentrating on songs and arrangements. I've never stopped listening to prime (roughly 72-74 for each band) ELP, KC, Yes, Genesis, Gentle Giant and VDGG. Never been a big fan of Soft Machine, Henry Cow, Colosseum, though I acknowledge their ability and sincerity. For my own personal tastes, when people mention KC that means ITKotKC and the Wetton/Bruford/Cross/Fripp juggernaut. I'm not so hot on LTiA (quote from the FbF book: "However, as a four piece, the group have obviously found their footing.....they'll be much happier as a rock group instead of the uneasy compromise between jazz and rock they were when Jamie was there". Amen. Would love to hear the live tapes with Mr. Muir, though.....), merely like the 70-71 stuff (WoP to Islands) and hardly listen to the 81-84 band except for a few cuts off of Discipline--the mixture of Talking Heads and gamelan never sat well with me. My concert experience of the double trio was disappointing (Wiltern, Los Angele), maybe an off night? I can't seem to find the "Live in Japan" video locally, I'll have to look harder. The letter bomb from jcsvy at cts dot com in #396 has enough grist for 20 mills, but I'll limit myself to one quote from RF he used to defend prog-bashing (I paraphrase): "Prog is a hodge-podge of ill-understood, badly digested musical forms". Well, IMHO, RF is as guilty as anyone of this! "The Devils Triangle", "Lizard" and "Earthbound" are prime examples. Let the flames begin! Whether RF likes what it became or was, fact is, he was part of the prog "scene". He was asked to join Yes (declined), asked to join Emerson/Lake's as yet unnamed project (as confirmed by GL when I yelled the question to him in a crowd of fans at the Wiltern in '92) but was turned down (KE was not "keen to work with a guitarist"). So what if they all turned into fat, overpaid, pompous rock star dinosaurs by 1976 (a bit harsh but you get the drift..)? That doesn't diminish the accomplishments of the above mentioned bands one iota. ITKotKC greatly influenced Yes (esp. Bruford), Genesis, the Giant and countless others. The seamless welding of rock energy/rhythms, jazz freedom and classical forms, coupled with a clean but punchy production: it's all there and basically, (no offense to the band or Christians intended) Genesis 1:1. So what if it eventually meant Styx and Kansas (they have some good songs, no flames please)? This lumping it all together with no historical perspective is somewhat limiting, IMHO. By RF's own admission in the FbF booklet, the area between jazz improv and rock structure that the 1969 band worked in is a murky one--does that mean that KC's attempts in 1969 and 1971 were "ill-understood, badly digested"? I personally would rather hear "Asbury Park" rather than "Bearings, Get Thy" but that doesn't lessen the impact. KC used classical ideas, too--some good (Bartok's harmonic ideas) some bad ("Prelude: Song of the Gulls"). RF is an admitted fan of Bartok's String Quartets. He used ideas from them, but frankly, nothing I've heard from KC is as "out there" and scary as the first three Quartets. Once again, IMHO. I'd like to make the following observations and welcome dialog as long as it is not abusive or personal. Any rude or obscene comments will receive the same type of spamming that TH mentioned a few issues back (ET seems to have more personal attacks than other pages I read/contribute to. Why is that?): 1. WoP--Fripp writing ITCotKC without McDonald, just to prove he could do it. True or False? I like this album but it's almost comical the way (esp. on side one) it follows the arrangements almost exactly (soft, loud, frantic unison riffing, mellotron interlude etc.). If by using the 5/4 pulse and the basic motif of Holt's Mars and then use it as a basis for a 10 minute jam is the way to digest classical ideas into rock, give me "Hoedown" any day. If the answer is True, how artistic and full of integrity was that? 2. Lizard--My main complaint and the first thing I thought of when I read RF's comment quoted above. As a review said: "The abyss where rock meets jazz". I have grown to like this album (a friend has suffered abuse for many years defending it) but, really, Coltrane did jazz free form freak outs much better than Side 2. I don't think you'd get many straight ahead jazzers defending the use of Mellotron......Comments? 3. Earthbound--Profound statement or worthless free jazz garbage? Again, nice, well thought out comments appreciated. 4. Now I get heretical--as someone mentioned in a previous ET, TGD contains its fair share of "masturbatory soloing". Thank you for saying that! Let's face it, not every night was Godhead, even for the 73-74 Crimson and meandering, one chord jams are still meandering, one chord jams. The biggest shock for me when I got TGD was to hear "Journey to Centre of the Cosmos", knowing it was two nights after "Asbury Park" (along with "Fracture" and "The Night Watch" my favorite KC), and realize that basically, it's the same blueprint, i.e. KC, when tired, burnt out from touring and not getting along too well, could fall back into cliches, great, difficult cliches, but cliches none the less. The realization that not every night (as RF's description of the Washington DC concert seems to say) was divinely inspired is food for thought. I've heard live tapes of 73-74 KC where they don't sound that great; a poor, uninspired "Fracture" or "Starless" is pretty tough to listen to. For a band that lived and died by their improv to not be inspired, uh oh............ 5. Am I the only one (no, a critic of all people noticed too! Yikes) who feels that by the time of Red that RF was starting to repeat himself just a wee little bit? Those dim2nds (Bartok) and aug 5's and use of repeating, arppegiated ideas were starting to sound a little samey. Great as Red is, esp. "Starless" and "One More Red Nightmare", when I first heard it in late 1975, I thought "Hmm...it sounds like "Fracture" with vocals". Shall I be burned at the stake now or later? So, RF got out when the going was good. Great for him! As much as I love ELP (and I do love them a lot) I'll be the first to admit that they should have broken up in 1975 and stayed that way. Genesis should have stopped after Gabriel left, IMHO, Yes after GftO etc. They didn't though, so I think we have to use a little more critical thinking and separate good from bad. I, for instance, have never been able to crack TLoG or Exposure (despite the friend who loves Lizard playing both constantly). Anyone care to enlighten me or point me in the right direction, in a non rude way? Thank you for your patience and look forward to opening some private e-mail conversations. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:43:56 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mattias Ribbing Subject: Were they ever satanists? + Jamie Muir Hello, This might be a silly question, but I can=B4t help wondering. Were King Crimson satanists in the early seventies? The reasons why I ask this question are rather obvious.=20 1. The name King Crimson is another name for Satan (made up by Sinfield). 2. Just look at the ICOTCK-cover. I the late sixties I bet that was a rather controversial cover, just like the death/doom-metal covers are today. 3. Fallen Angel means Satan. 4. Starless and Bible Black? I also read in TGD Scrapbook that Jamie Muir bit blood capsules on stage wearing animal skins and chains around his neck. And that he left KC to live in a monastery. Hmmm... Was Fripp ironic when he wrote that Muir was far too well-balanced to stay in the group? I couldn=B4t help laughing when I read= this :) Why am I really writing this stuff anyway? It=B4s supposed to be the music that matters. Well, I guess Im just curious. Mattias Ribbing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:27:00 -0600 (MDT) From: John Berg Subject: McDonald & Giles >Return-Path: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk >Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 06:49:23 GMT >From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) >Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk >To: starless at milehigh dot denver dot net >Subject: McDonald & Giles >Organization: Elephant Talk >Lines: 49 > >The following submission for Elephant Talk has been wrongly addressed. > >All submissions must be sent to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk and nowhere else. Any >posts forwarded to other addresses will not make it onto the list! > >> This is my first post to ET, although I have been lurking out here for some >> time now. I wanted to respond to an item brought up by Jamie Rothwell in ET >> #403 regarding the McDonald & Giles album. At this moment, I am holding a >> mint pressing of the album which I had the good fortune and foresight to >> purchase in 1971 and have played perhaps 5 times since purchasing it. For >> the benefit of Jamie and anyone else interested, I will list some intersting >> tidbits from the liner notes and relay my meager knowledge of the album. >> First off, the playlist Jamie gives is actually in reverse (perhaps the >> compiler of the tape opted to record Birdman first since it is the major >> recording on this particular album). In any event, Suite In C through >> Tomorrow's People is, in actuality, side one and Birdman is side two. (A >> moot point perhaps but to the audio purist, certainly not!). >> Some interesting tidbits from the album I am in posession of: The original >> pressing was on Cotillion (a division of Atlantic), copyrighted in 1971 and >> the catalogue number is listed as SD 9042. To the best of my knowledge, >> this album has been out of print for quite some time and I am not aware that >> it has been re-issued on CD (though I could be wrong about that!). In >> addition to Ian McDonald and Michael Giles, Peter Giles plays bass on this >> album. Steve Winwood also plays keyboards on Turnham Green. Lastly, and >> this should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with the album, Peter >> Sinfield is credited with the words (and original concept)to Birdman which, >> according to the liner notes, was "mostly written in the spring of 1968 >> apart from the flying bit which was done in 1970". >> The cover is simply a photograph of McDonald & Giles with two women, who I >> presume are either their wives or girlfriends at the time. No mention of >> who these women are appears anywhere on the album. The inside art work is >> reminiscent of ITWOP era art work but it is by an artist whom I have never >> heard of, Charlotte Bates. The only other apparent bit of meaningful >> information is that the album was recorded at Island Records during May, >> June & July 1970. >> As far as how and where to track this obscure album down, I haven't a clue >> but I hope this gives some additional information to those whose curiosity >> was aroused by this inquiry. If anyone would like more information from the >> liner notes please feel free to ask and I will respond either privately or >> with another post to ET. I hope this helps. >> >> John >> >> > > >Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) >For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk > > > ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #404 ********************************