Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #403 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 403 Saturday, 2 August 1997 Today's Topics: New DGM releases in the fall Chesterfield Schizoid Man gamelan? CD recommendation: new gamelan music Bruford MIDI file Re: Vinyl Sound Quality The Young Person's Guide to Larks' Tongues The Golden Section Musical dreams Damage IMpossible productions Sensations Fix RE: E-BOW CD vs LP - Some facts More vinyl reflections New KC????????????? Oh Boy...Vinyl Damage/Sylvian's "singing" voice re: vinyl vs. CD (short!) E-Bow The Tingle Factor CD Indexing RE: Starless tingles RE: E-BOW Starless riff. Re: Gentle Giant Starless/E-Bow Bears Cd Art Catching Up We'll let you know... (eventually) Info on Macdonald and Giles to yes NO !one more thing ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: D vs A The Digital vs Analogue debate is now closed -- this one needs its own newsletter! So no further posts on this topic please. Toby ------------------------------ Subject: New DGM releases in the fall Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 10:23:17 -0700 From: jim_bricker at claris dot com (Jim Bricker) All, some news I'll forward on from Possible Productions (thanks to Amy for sharing it!) They plan to have the new releases in Sept., as well as some in Oct. or Nov. Specifically regarding "If Summer Had Its Ghosts," the new Bruford/Towner/Gomez CD, they'll see that in late September. They will send out notifications of new products to their mailing list customers. I don't know what the other new CDs will be, possibly Tony Gabelle (sp?) and Gates of Paradise. They are also in the process of creating a new web site to eventually replace the PossProd one. Save your sheckles... Best regards, Jim Bricker, San Jose CA. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 19:22:32 -0400 (EDT) From: AACUNZO at xray3 dot chem dot sunysb dot edu Subject: Chesterfield Schizoid Man Hello, Here's something really cool I noticed on disc 4 of EPITAPH. Fripp ends his guitar solo during "Schizoid Man" on a high note that feeds back. MacDonald begins his sax solo on the same note, fading in as Fripp fades out, creating a seamless transition between the two solos - a sort of live "cross-fade." The first time I noticed this I thought 'Wow, I know the sound quality is bad on this, but all of a sudden Fripp's guitar sounds like a sax. Wait a minute, that is a sax. When did that happen?' :) With insufficent schemes, Andy Acunzo aacunzo at sbchem dot sunysb dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:24:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Nameless to the Goddess Subject: gamelan? (Before I begin, let me say GOD DAMN ALACHUA FREENET! Guess what the inability to change servers in irc plus the inability to telnet to non-approved sites means for me and "seeing" Tony Levin. If I could kill...) Okay, now that that's over, let me say, I love the gamelan. My only exposure to it is on the soundtrack, by the Geinoh Yamashirogumi, to the movie Akira, and it's very cool. Which I could find the CD. And then there's King Crimson. And my question, always, with regards to Fripp (KC, soundscapes, business), is how the hell does he do it? I am more interested in the fretting hand. How much movement does it take to handle that rapid fire barrage of notes? Thinking I should buy a RF video so I can actually *see* KC play. DANGER: HIGHLY INEFFABLE! <*> afn39111 at afn dot org <*> Why am I such a dork? The Church of Perelandra: http://www.afn.org/~afn39111 B5 (passing beyond the Rim) list: babylon5-request at gatekey dot com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:01:36 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: CD recommendation: new gamelan music The gamelan thread made me think that a recent NZ CD might be of interest to ETers. It's called "Tabuh Pacific: New Music for Gamelan", comprising 7 compositions by NZ composers played by Gamelan Padhang Moncar, the gamelan orchestra of Victoria University of Wellington, NZ. The composers are Mark Fletcher, Megan Collins, Judith Exley, Ross Carey, Di Fairly, Michael Norris, and Gareth Farr. With the exception of Exley (b.1939), all these composers are 30 or under, and all have one thing in common: they are all past or present music students at Victoria. Gareth Farr is considered NZ's hottest young composer. A percussionist, he's had works commissioned by overseas artists such as Evelyn Glennie. He also has an alter ego: he occasionally does a drag queen act under the name of Lilith. Truly a man of many talents! Here's some details from the liner notes (written by Jack Body, a leading NZ composer and a Victoria staff member): "Javanese gamelan has been played at Victoria University since 1976. Although the players dedicate much of their time to learning the techniques and repertoire of traditional Javanese music, they also enjoy the challenge of creating new compositions. they are attracted to the possibility of exploring this marvellously integrated and harmonious percussion ensemble, which is, in many ways, so very different from a Western orchestra. "These seven works were composed in 1994 and 1995. The fact that all the composers have played gamelan means that they have an understanding of how the instruments best sound. In some ways this knowledge can be an impediment, since one of the challenges for a Western composer writing for gamelan is how to create a personal, individual expression, and to escape the forms and structures of traditional gamelan music which are so strongly associated with the instruments themselves. One obvious difficulty is with pitch. The gamelan ensemble normally comprises two sets of instruments, each set tuned to a discrete mode. Interestingly four of these works mix the two modes, slendro and pelog, to create a tonal ambiguity which makes the ensemble sound more Western than Asian. "Some of these composers have also tried to escape tradition by using the instruments in unconventional ways; in several of the pieces the players beat on the wooden frames, and in 'Kreasi Baru' the instruments are tapped with coins, and bowed with double-bass bows. Even 'Tabuh Pacific', which uses the gamelan in a fairly traditional way is, in one respect, quite radical. The ensemble is Javanese but the music it plays is mainly in Balinese style. The music belonging to one ensemble is subtly changed by being played by a different kind of ensemble." "Tabuh Pacific" is on the Manu label (cat.no. CD MANU 1514), an imprint of the Ode Record Company, Auckland, NZ. Where you would get one from overseas I have no idea. It's hard enough to find here in NZ! I bought mine direct from the Music Dept at Victoria for NZ$16 (cost price, essentially; it normally retails for around NZ$30). You might try writing to the Department of Music, Victoria University of Wellington, P O Box 600, Wellington, New Zealand. If you like gamelan or "modern serious" music you'll like this disc. David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 23:40:26 -0400 From: "Robert C. Parducci" Subject: Bruford MIDI file Fans of Bill Bruford may enjoy a MIDI file of "Beezlebub" which can be found at: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rcp/gifs.htm Robert C. Parducci Email: legend at popstar dot com rcp at compuserve dot com LEGEND: In Our Own Time http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rcp/ ------------------------------ From: Clive Backham Subject: Re: Vinyl Sound Quality Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:39:23 +0100 >Somehow, I know that Toby's hand will quickly squelch any CD vs analog >debate here, so I better slip this in fast...... Indeed, Toby will probably knock this thread on the head pretty soon, but like Gordon I feel obliged to try and contribute before the shutters come down. While I have noticed that Gordon seems eminently qualified to debate the finer points of music theory (and I thank him for his interesting posts on those matters), why do I always feel the need to scream every time he posts something about audio? Could it be because he is nearly always wrong? Yeh, maybe that's it. You might construe this as a "flame". Perhaps it is, although I do try to remain civil. But frankly, Gordon, your errors have been pointed out to you many times before (by myself and others), yet you seem determined not to listen. It doesn't really bother me what you believe for yourself, but I do care when you make incorrect statements in this public forum. In ET #402, "Gordon Emory Anderson" writes: >In 397 "The Analog Kid" raves about vinyl and claims to dislike CDs. I >>am curious, "Kid": What about surface noise, clicks, scratches and >>pops appeals to you? Why do you prefer dynamic compression so great as >>to be ridiculous? What is it about inner-groove distortion that clicks >>with you? And how about off-center pressings (built-in wow), warped >>disks, and the time-limitations that have forced whole pieces to be >>arbitrarily divided between sides? Why does this crap turn you on? >Despite his claim, this comment comes from a guy who has probably never >heard how good the best analog sounds (listen to a 180gm pressing on a good >system with, say, a Basis Ovation or a Linn Sondek turntable ). That's a bit presumptious, isn't it? How do you know the poster hasn't heard such a system? All his criticisms of LP replay are valid. They are pretty much inherent in the medium: it doesn't matter how heavy/virgin your vinyl is, or how good your turntable is, LP has these faults (and others), and there's nothing you can reasonably do about it. Let me say straight out that I happen to be a Linn Sondek owner (and have been since 1980), and that I fully acknowledge that LPs *can* sound fabulous. But those that do are few and far between. Now, nobody is going to tell you that you're not allowed to *prefer* the sound of LP to CD. Indeed, LP replay does have certain characteristics that I myself find very attractive. Foremost among these is probably the high levels of second harmonic distortion (gives a lovely warm tone). But let's not spread misinformation about how LP sounds better than CD because it's more accurate..... >But there >are technical reasons for this too. Although the dynamic range of CD is >greater than LP, who cares? Indeed. When the average listening room has a background noise level around 40-50dBA, you don't need much more than about 60dB dynamic range. Even non-180gram LPs can just about achieve this, on a good day with a following wind. >More than this, however, is the fact that CD is >limited to 22KHz and 16 bits/sample. True. >The ear can probably hear out to a >resolution of 21 or 22 bits, Maybe. This equates to a dynamic range of 126-132dB. Thus, if you were standing in a room with *nil* ambient noise (ie. an anechoic chamber - a *very* unpleasant place to be, BTW), and somebody played you a noise so loud that it hurts and would cause permanent hearing damage within a few minutes, then you will have experienced what it is like to "resolve 21 or 22 bits". Forgive me if I pass on accompanying you to any such demonstration. >and recent research has shown that even for >older folks, information at up to 44kHz (!) has a definite effect on sound >quality (it is not directly audible, however). These claims are generally accepted only by a small minority of audio engineers, but I will grant you that the jury is still out. >This is why a new audio-only >standard is being proposed for DVD--96Ksamples/sec, at 22 bits. No. The reason for a new audio DVD standard is so that the hardware manfufacturers can sell us new players and the record companies can re-release their back catalogues yet again (instead of investing in making new recordings). In any case, the major thrust of audio DVD is towards multi-channel formats. It just so happens that there is enough capacity for 96kHz/24bits, and since the mastering studios will soon be able to deliver that bandwidth, it may as well get put on the disc to give the marketing droids some bigger numbers to brag about. >As for >vinyl, the best has a greater bandwidth and better resolution than CD, >which only at its best really is at 16 bits. Hang on a minute, didn't you acknowledge a little way back that CD has greater dynamic range than LP? But now you claim that LP has better resolution than CD? Dynamic range and resolution are *the same thing*, dammit! As for bandwidth: well, I'll grant you that some LPs have non-zero signals beyond 20kHz, but whether it constitutes valid programme information is extremely unlikely. >Only recently has CD started >to approach decent analog for sound quality--listen to Eno's box set with >Sony Super Bit Mapping--it sounds great. But it took 15 years for CD to >sound that good! Ah yes, Super Bit Mapping. The technology that moves digital quantisation noise away from the part of the frequency range to which the ear is most sensitive, thereby allowing *greater than 16 bits* of resolution to be achievable. What was it you said earlier? Oh yes, "CD, which only at its best really is at 16 bits". SBM is indeed a worthwhile addition to the audio engineer's toolkit, although it has to be said that SBM is widely regarded as one of the less desirable implementations of noise shaping around. And finally, what's the point of using SBM with its ability to get >16 bits resolution to remaster old analogue tapes whose recordings might have about 13 bits of resolution if they're lucky? >And jitter is a problem only recently appreciated. Jitter in digital signal transmission is a problem that has been known about since long before CD was ever thought of (eg. w.r.t. computer networks). It recently became public enemy number one in the audiophile community when it was finally hammered into certain numbskulls that CDs do, on the whole, read without error. Yes, jitter can make a difference, and it's extremely tricky to eliminate it entirely, but the problem has now been addressed well enough that it's no longer a serious issue. There are other more important issues to be dealt with in CD player design - like the inadequacy of the post-DAC analogue stages to do justice to the signal which is delivered to them. In summary: 1. CD is more *accurate* than LP. This is just a basic fact; deal with it. 2. Some people prefer the sound of LP to CD. I have sympathy with this position. Clive Backham Capita Managed Services Ltd. (+44) 1442 872121 clive at capita dot nildram dot co dot uk ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: The Young Person's Guide to Larks' Tongues Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:05:42 -0400 Someone was asking about THE YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE TO KING CRIMSON on CD. I made the rather flippant comment that it was a Japanese import. Feeling that I owe ET more than that, I have brought the CD here to work so that I can provide more details. It is, as mentioned, a double-CD set, in the older form of double-CD packaging. It is on the EG label, as "made in Japan by Virgin Japan Ltd," in 1990. Its catalog numbers are VJCP-3001/3002. Each disk conforms to each lp in the original set. There are two booklets. The first, with microscopic type, reproduces the original booklet (although I haven't checked for a 1/1 correlation). The second includes lyrics (in English) but is largely made up of Japanese. However, it includes as a folded insert a "family tree" of Crimson, up to date as of December, 1989 (!), in the manner/style of Pete Frame. It includes the first League of Gentlemen, but not Brain. It is very detailed, and apparently accurate. The price for the set, printed on the back of the case, was Y3,900. I hope the foregoing will atone for my error concerning the live performance of "Larks' Tongues Pt. 1." Several people e-mailed me directly to point out that there are two performances on THE GREAT DECEIVER boxed set, and they - all of you - are of course perfectly correct. What was I thinking of? Not much, apparently. (Well, actually, I was thinking of the live performances I'VE been to, totally forgetting those I had recordings of.) I stand corrected. That said, I've been re-listening to TGD. The live versions of "Pt. 1" lack the subtleties (and Muir!) of the studio version, and I particularly miss the rushing murmur/babble of voices - which I would have thought could have been played and mixed in to the live performance from the sound board, had they wished to. There are a number of improvisations and unrecorded (in the studio) songs (with Palmer-James lyrics) to be found in TGD; I'm toying with the idea of making a tape for myself of just those pieces. I suspect there's about an "album"'s worth. --TW ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 11:45:22 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: The Golden Section There is an interesting article in the latest issue of _Personality and Social Psychology Review_ by Sharon Ruth Gross and Norman Miller on the "Golden Section." Basically, the Golden Section is the division of an area into 38.2% figure and 61.8% ground. This is the ratio at which the larger section is to the whole as the smaller section is to the larger section (61.8/100 = 38.2/61.8). During the Middle Ages, it was referred to as "the divine proportion." It has long been known to be aesthetically pleasing and has been used extensively in art and design. Gross and Miller point out that "A number of composers have applied the Golden Section to their music by locating the climax at the 61.8% point of the piece (e.g., Bela Bartok, Frederic Chopin)". This seems like just the kind of thing that Fripp would think was cool. Does anybody know if he has employed the Golden Section in any of his music? (P.S. Gross and Miller point out that composers have generally attributed their use of the 61.8% to the Fibonacci series rather than to the Golden Section, but it amounts to the same thing.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 12:11:05 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Musical dreams In #402, Doug Arthur described a dream in which he heard new King Crimson music. I occasionally have musical dreams -- they are among my favorite dreams. When I wake up, I can usually remember only a fragment of the music (it may be that that is all there really was and I just thought there was more), and if I don't write it down right away I usually forget it. But the few that I have written down are actually not bad -- better than anything my conscious mind can compose. In general, dreams seem to me to be evidence of the existence of a poorly understood creative facility of the subconscious -- the fact that we can, while asleep, produce in real time a completely believable visual/auditory experience with no discernible effort. Musical dreams seem to be simply a special case of this. Someday I would like to get really good at the techniques of "lucid dreaming" and see how much control I can get over writing dream music. By the way, this spring was a bad one for pollen in the eastern U.S. and I was taking a decongestant before bed that seemed to produce nightly musical dreams for some reason... a partial compensation for hay fever! -- Chris Jepson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 10:52:16 -0800 From: Stephen Arthur Subject: Damage From: KALL44A at prodigy dot com (MR MARTIN P KENNEDY) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:45:55, -0500 Subject: Damage > yeah, fripp does a lot of neat stuff, but you if haven't heard > sylvian's singing style, you might want to borrow a copy first. > david's an alumus of a highly stylized haircut band called > "japan" who heavily inflects his voice with a theatrical vibrato > that makes bryan ferry sound like kurt cobain. > this one went straight to the used record store. Are you nuts? I've absolutely played that CD to death in the time that I've had it (it didn't leave my car stereo during the entire year of 1995) and there isn't a minute that doesn't give me chills. The end of 20th Century Dreaming STILL blows me away. Why do I get the feeling that you took the money from your sale and bought a Spice Girls CD.....? The damage CD is OK, I sold my copy for $70 bucks and bought 4 ELP, 1 Sonny Sharrock, 1 Coltrane (double), 1 Miles Davis (double), plus 1 Yes (all used) cds. I saw Sylvian perform live in 1995 (solo) in NYC and he was terrible. I saw Bryan Ferry (who Sylvian imitated at one point), and he was pretty solid. I would like to see Fripp do some work with Ferry. Damage is for those with a lot of money or with an obsessive need to collect anything Fripp, as if own everything Fripp recording is going to achieve some personal (meaningful) goal. I have never heard it before, but I would be more interested in owning ELP's "Love Beach" (Lake and Sinfeld are all over that album). There are many excellent bands out there (most of them are not from the 80's or 90's), I have my favorites. I have no regrets getting rid of Damage: pretty mediocre. But we must remember our audience. We are living through a musical void where we make excuses for music. steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:58:02 -0400 Subject: IMpossible productions From: solidbond at juno dot com (Mike Pope) Although i have been a primarily silent reader, I have just experienced something that I think deserves audience. I have been dealing, due to decidedly un-commercial taste, with mail-order services for years, and I can appreciate RF's comments regarding the essentiality of mail-order revenue. However, I have found that in this beaurocratic world, one must take matters in their own hands if one is to keep their business expedient. To this end, I have been known to check status, by telephone, of orders placed with Possible Productions. Recently, given some preparation delays, I had cause to make some calls, and was berated for doing so, reason being that personnell were tied up with my inquiries to the detriment of other business. While not wishing to provoke, or delay other business of any kind, I am a paying customer, with rights to the knowledge of how my business is being handled. By and large, Possible Productions does not disappoint. But where my money is involved, most mail order services are uniformly slow, and vague with followups. And so I occassionally feel the need to inquire when there is some question as to availability and/or processing. As a consumer, and as a part of the network that is the support of that organization as well as the artists working within it, any mutually beneficial service (and, ideally, mail order is one of them) demands eternal vigilance if things are to be run smoothly. Given recent irritations I have caused, I will curtail my followup activities somewhat, and give what has been for me a largely satisfactory organization the benefit of the doubt, but I am wary. In time, perhaps not so much. Given the posts to this forum concerning some unhappiness since PP was "re-organized", I will keep a watchful eye. One man with an aim 31/7/97 ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Sensations Fix Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 13:00:31 -0400 Alessandro Bagno, in 398, refers to the Italian group, Sensations Fix, as "one of the best and most underrated groups of that era [the 70's]." Sensations Fix was unique among 70's Italian bands in that it was a US/Italian group. Its leader, Franco Falsini, lived some of the time = in Northern Virginia (where his wife grew up), and his band was made up of both American and Italian musicians. I met him in 1977, and briefly went into partnership with him to start a new label - which died before anything was issued. We worked at the Willow Mill Studio in Falls Church, where at least one Sensations Fix album was finished. We recorded a number of local musicians, most notably Rupert Chappelle, = who played synthesizers (an entire album was recorded and never released). Sensations Fix was an odd band; its recorded music sounded more like demos than finished recordings, and most people regard the first one or two as the best (out of around half a dozen albums, one released in Los Angeles on the All Ears label, the rest on Italian Polydor). I prefer Franco's solo album, NASO FREDDO (COLD NOSE), also on Italian Polydor. Franco and I did a recorded interview which was highly produced at Willow Mill; we mixed in musical examples, including a cassette of a live performance (never issued on record), and the whole thing ran 30-45 minutes. (I'm vague about that for reasons I'll get to.) We initially broadcast the interview on my Dr. Progresso radio show on Washington D.C.'s WGTB-FM (a station which no longer exists, more's the pity), with another hour or so of live discussion and the playing of various album tracks, following the recorded interview. Unfortunately, I never got a copy of that interview - and I am still looking for one. (There is a bootleg tape of the actual broadcast, a copy of which I have, but it is almost unlistenably bad in sound quality.) I know the recorded interview was broadcast in Italy and in Los Angeles, and it would be Really Neat if one of you has a copy. Please contact me. My friendship and business relationship with Franco soured after a couple of months, when I discovered he did not share my (perhaps naive) idealism about how we'd run our label. I wanted a cooperative = situation in which we'd co-own our recordings with the artists involved, 50/50. Franco, having been ripped off in the past by record companies, wanted to be in a position to be doing the ripping off this time around. We went our separate ways. Later, Matthew Moore and I launched the New Decade label on the principles I favored (and lost our shirts). Franco folded Sensations Fix and started a new band, Sherriff (which he misspelled in that way), with which he hoped to finally Make Big Money. The album lacked all the virtues of Sensations Fix, and was not a commercial success either. I haven't heard much of Franco since then, although I believe one very disappointing post-Sherriff Sensations Fix album was eventually issued, and was at least briefly on CD. Most of the other albums are not, although FRAGMENTS OF LIGHT came out on Polydor/Mellow. Anyone out there know what Franco is up to now? --TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ From: White Gold Subject: RE: E-BOW Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:20:05 +0100 BHECHT Writes: >I have recently heard of a device known as an E-BOW for the guitar. Can >someone advise me if this indeed creates an enduring sustain effect. Also, >how does this work as I understand it is not to be a regular plug in >effect. And how much money (in American dollars) does it usually go for? >Full of questions:) I have an E-BOw, and have been using it for about a year now.. It produces INFINITE sustain, as it is an electromagnet that, when placed properly above a string, causes the string to vibrate and thus, produce sound. It is fairly easy to use, but tough to master, as it has many quirks about placement above the pickup, and different ways to implement it. You can produce a range of sounds from it, including a violin, flute, and other wind and stringed instruments. If you like to make noise, and I mean a LOT of noise, try it out. Mine ran about $60 USA, a year ago.. Good luck! K ------------------------------ From: mmiller at pop3 dot wt dot net Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 16:50:18 +0000 Subject: CD vs LP - Some facts Many on both sides of the LP-vs-CD debate base arguments on erroneous assumptions. Often, people cite the superior accuracy of CD compared to LP - after all, everybody knows that, right? Wrong. The fact is that, due to unchangeable limitations in the "Red Book" format we listen to, the sampling rate of CD is always 44kHz. This is just barely over twice the rate of the highest audible frequencies of 20kHz (assuming one has really acute hearing - I can't hear much past 16kHz myself). In contrast, even though a phonograph is an electro-mechanical machine saddled with the mass of the stylus and some friction and resistance to its movement, it can sample a sound at much higher frequencies than 44kHz. IF the record was made well (which is not easy or common), and IF the playback equipment is of high quality and set up well (not cheap or common), the sound coming through will be more accurate. The one exception to LP's superior accuracy is that the frequency extremes may be "rolled off" slightly, although with better playback equipment, this is ususally ameliorated. On the other hand, digital playback offers the opportunity to cut out a lot of background noise and therefore offers a better signal-to-noise ratio. This assumes the CD was well-recorded (VERY rare) and was not remastered from analogue. It is possible to have less accurate but "cleaner" sound from digital. Analogue offers (usually) more accurate sound with more noise in the background. It takes very sophisticated filters and converters and such to produce quality sound from the "Red Book" digital format we are currently stuck with. If you haven't spent at least $1000 on your CD playback equipment, you probably haven't heard digital's potential. Similarly, if you didn't spend that amount on your phono equipment AND spend the time to set it up correctly, you haven't heard it's potential. And if you are playing either front-end through a "boom-box" or "rack system" it really won't matter - both will sound equally poor. Each system has its trade offs, but I believe the biggest factor in digital popularity is its "maintenance-free" aspect. That is a big plus. As with all opinions, there is no single answer. Everyone must make his/her own decision. It just helps to know the facts in order to make an informed decision. BTW, there ARE much more powerful digital formats out there, and DVD may hold the key to their home use. Basically, the sampling rate is upped to as high as 96kHz and the bit rate is increased as well. These are reported to dramatically increase sound quality and accuracy in audiohile-quality systems. However, their implementation will require a new inventory of the same recordings in the new format, and record companies may not be willing to go through yet another round of restocking. Okay, everyone...come out of your corners and start punching (no ear biting)!!! Matt Miller 1606 Regal Blue Court Fresno, TX 77545-9521 (281) 431-4115 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:15:50 -0400 From: Barry Ragin Subject: More vinyl reflections Hi all, in ET #402 Robert C. Parducci wrote: >From Fripp's second solo album, _Under Heavy Manners/God Save the Queen_ (1979): >God Save the Queen side: "New music is not a style, it is a quality." >Under Heavy Manners side: "All succumbs to the face of persistence." * * My copy reads "One can act from intelligence or from necessity" interesting. my copy tells me that "Art is the capacity to re-experience one's innocence." Perhaps some ET'er would be willing to gather these bon mots into a web page? Just wondering. peace, Barry -- "Once when I was four or five I asked my grandmother to tell me a secret, some secret thing only grown-ups knew. She thought a moment, then leaned down close to me and whispered. 'There are no grown-ups,' she said." --- Karen Joy Fowler -- "Once when I was four or five I asked my grandmother to tell me a secret, some secret thing only grown-ups knew. She thought a moment, then leaned down close to me and whispered. 'There are no grown-ups,' she said" --- Karen Joy Fowler ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:21:11 -0500 (EST) From: SHELF <05jwsmith at bsuvc dot bsu dot edu> Subject: New KC????????????? It's been awhile since I've received, read, or posted to Elephant Talk digest. I thought however that since I have more time to read email now, I'd see what was up in the world of KC, the world's greatest progressive supergroup. I checked my watch and suddenly realized that the last "real" release by Crimso (ie: Studio release) was over two years ago. I'd have to say it's high time for another monumental studio album by KC. "THRAK" proves that 50-year-old men or no, they can compose brilliant music that rocks the SHIT out of bands like Bush. I guess my real question is; "WHAT ARE YOU DOING GUYS?????"...Sure, ThrAkAttAck is a great release, Epitaph is a great release, but give us something new and utterly profound and original... Any ET'ers have news on this front for an out-of-touch Crimhead? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 18:04:26 -0600 From: daniel farris Organization: denial recording Subject: Oh Boy...Vinyl Well, I've only been on the list a week or two, and I hate that my first post is on this subject but here goes. I'll try to be brief. Gordon Emory Anderson writes: > Despite his claim, this comment comes from a guy who has probably never > heard how good the best analog sounds (listen to a 180gm pressing on a good > system with, say, a Basis Ovation or a Linn Sondek turntable ). Who can afford such niceties? Who presses vinyl worth listening to on such admittedly fine gear? I have certainly heard these things and they are quite nice. Is is your intention to discuss analog vs. digital in a purely academic setting, or may we discuss it from a more pragmatic point of view? > But there > are technical reasons for this too. Although the dynamic range of CD is > greater than LP, who cares? You said it! With current mastering techniques being the way they are (and RF being as guilty as, if not moreso than, the rest), the actual available dynamic range of CD's is _useless_ or perhaps 'unused' is a better term. The mastering trend now is to pull every available bit out of your recording by using multiband compression and limiting to slam the levels at zero and never allow the signal to drop below -4dB (on a digital meter). Practically speaking, 95% of the CD's released in the last three years (including the latest Crimson records) would do fine with a dynamic range of 5 dB, about 95dB less than is available. > More than this, however, is the fact that CD is > limited to 22KHz and 16 bits/sample. The ear can probably hear out to a > resolution of 21 or 22 bits, and recent research has shown that even for > older folks, information at up to 44kHz (!) has a definite effect on sound > quality (it is not directly audible, however). First to clarify, CD samples at 44.1KHz, and as the Nyquist Theorum observes, this means that the top frequency response of program thus recorded is 22KHz. In order to respond up to 44.1KHz, a sampling rate of >88.2KHz is required. A sampling rate this high is both unnecesary and lower than Sony intends to give us with direct stream digital. While the audiologists tell me that my hearing puts me in the top 0.4% of the global population, I can sadly report that nothing above 25k gets through to my brain. Furthermore, the finest microphones I have ever had occasion to use (Calrec Soundfield, B&K, Telefunken, Shoepps, etc.) top out at about 22kHz. I would also ask you to find me a pair of speakers (or headphones for that matter) that can reproduce anything above 25k- for less than $100,000. And in the 'above $250k' category, even 2" pro analog multitracks with that kind of response are difficult to find. As for bit resolution, I am all for going to 24 bits and I am upset that we have the chance, with DVD, to change from 16, and 22 is its proposed replacement. Personally, I think Sony's new direct-stream digital format, which is a series of one-bit words (to be dithered on the fly by th! e playback machine) sampled at 96 x 44.1KHz, will be the way to go. This way, any format of digital audio may be played back without sample rate conversion or bit re-dithering on any machine regardless of the bit resolution. Lower the bit resolution and the sampling rate just goes up and vice versa. Plenty of resolution on both the bit axis and the sampling rate axis. As a side note, the only humans who are able to hear above 25KHz are black girls under the age of 14. They can hear up to 32KHz. > This is why a new audio-only > standard is being proposed for DVD--96Ksamples/sec, at 22 bits. As for > vinyl, the best has a greater bandwidth and better resolution than CD, > which only at its best really is at 16 bits. Only recently has CD started > to approach decent analog for sound quality--listen to Eno's box set with > Sony Super Bit Mapping--it sounds great. But it took 15 years for CD to > sound that good! And jitter is a problem only recently appreciated. I proudly own both Eno box sets and many others using Sony SBM. I don't like SBM actually. Dither noise and all. The way to approach the problem is more along the lines of Apogee Elctronics' UV22 mastering process, which allows signal to fall as much as 50dB below the supposed minimum of -102dB. It is also a superior method of converting 20, 22 and 24 bit signals to a 16 bit medium like CD. When you say clock jitter has only recently been appreciated, I wonder what you might mean by 'recently'. Since the start, Apogee has been concerned with clock jitter, which is what has made their filters and converters the most respected and expensive in the business. My problem with audiophiles stacking up $250,000 worth of gear to listen to their pop albums has always been the fact that, for 20 years, its most likely that whatever they're listening to was mixed on a pair of $100 Auratones or a $400 pair of Yamaha NS-10's. And even in cases where even the very best gear is used to record, you can't press Ambisonic (which makes quad, THX and DTS sound like Disneyland) or Middle-Sides recordings on vinyl because the phase information would drive the cutting mechanism directly upwards off of the lathe and cause the mastering process to fail exactly 100% of the time. So much for brevity, Daniel Farris denial recording Birmingham, Alabama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:37:00 -0400 (EDT) From: claire shindler Subject: Damage/Sylvian's "singing" voice My two cents on "Damage" follow what was said in the past few ETs. The band (Fripp, Michael Brook, Gunn, Mastellotto) is as close to the perfect noise-making machine as we could hope (current KC lineup excluded, of course), although it might have been cool if Brook had been given a little more latitude; listen to his "Cobalt Blue," "Live at the Aquarium, or "Night Song" (with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan), and you'll agree that he's got a lot more to offer than trading leads with Fripp. I particularly like Trey's stick playing throughout Damage - considering his tendency to approach the instrument as a guitar player, he does a great job here of holding down the low end and not being too "busy". Sylvian, as a vocalist, is really the weak link here. His three-note range, unintentionally goofy lyrics, and melodramatic histrionics definitely take things down a notch. Listening to Damage, I find myself hoping that someday, Fripp, Gunn, Brook and Mastellotto will get together again, this time with a better singer (ideally, I'd love to hear what they'd sound like with a woman singing- Lisa Gerrard or Sheila Chandra, for instance). I also thought Michael Brook, Trey Gunn, and an African drumming group could do some wild stuff together. Peter http://haven.tgot.one/sorry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 19:47:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: re: vinyl vs. CD (short!) Rather than engage in a vinyl vs. CD war, I'd advise any interested parties to lurk around rec.audio.high-end for awhile. They will observe that cogent arguments are available to *both sides* of the issue, and that each format has its virtues. I must comment on one thing though: saying that it took CD technology 15 years to get as 'good' as the *best* vinyl/turntable isn't exactly damning (but it *is* debatable) -- how long did it take the older technology to mature? Twice that, maybe? -S. who's heard 'em both, and thinks room tuning matters more ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 00:08:40 -0700 From: Ramon Montoya Subject: E-Bow Yes!!! The E-Bow creates endless sustain. It is a very cool and creative instrument. It can be used in a strumming motion to arpeggiate a chord. It runs on 1 9-volt and it works by creating a magnetic field between it and the string. It also works on acoustic guitars but w/ more difficulty. I love mine and I use it to add intense color in the band I play with. I bought mine for $65.00 American. They retail around $90.00 Get one!! Enjoy It!! But keep it a secret!! ADIOS!!! ------------------------------ From: "Jason Bell" Subject: The Tingle Factor Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:26:41 +0100 >Just wondering whether anybody else here gets a similar reaction -- either >to this, or to another KC track, or any other. Well Stewart, there's two tracks for me. "Sartori In Tangiers" and "Discipline". These were the times in 1992 when God said 'Go Forth and play Chapman Stick'. Who am I to turn my back on God's word ? When I listen to them my arm hairs go bezerk. Regards Jason Bell Web Designer Email : jason dot bell at dial dot pipex dot com or Jason dot Bell at PEmail dot net Web : Homepage - http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/jason.bell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 09:16:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: CD Indexing Greetings, Regarding the recent exchange between Dickson and Parducci on CDs... For an example of CD Indexing, check out the title track off _Lizard_. It has four index points you can skip right to: 1 0.00 2 4.36 3 11.12 4 22.17 In order to take advantage of this your CD player must have an indexing function (not all players do). Justin Weinberg - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - Department of Philosophy "This fellow isn't insane. We Georgetown University are only doing philosophy." Washington, DC - Wittgenstein, On Certainty ------------------------------ From: Ron Harding Subject: RE: Starless tingles Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:49:14 -0400 I get those. I refer to it as a "musical orgasm". This makes my friends uncomfortable. They're probably just jealous; I don't think you can get one from Enya. It's a rare and valuable experience. Cherish it. Other tracks that have done it for me: 'Asbury Park' (amazing improv!), 'The Sailor's Tale' (when the big Mellotron comes crashing in), Magma's 'Theusz Hamtaahk' (the repetitive part where the distorted piano hits the same note over and over, and then Stella Vander's voice starts bending the note slightly into a piercing discord), Univers Zero's 'Heatwave', and 'The Funeral Plain' (the whole thing, really), Roger Water's 'Gone Fishing' (the 'fuck it then' part) and 'Every Strangers' Eyes' (the last verse). - Ron ------------------------------ From: Ron Harding Subject: RE: E-BOW Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:58:49 -0400 It does indeed work, and doesn't need to be plugged into anything. It's a small hand-held, battery-powered device which you hold over the string you want to play. Two grooves on the bottom line up with the two adjacent strings to make it easier to hold in place. The explanation of how it works follows. Unfortunately, the electronics are potted in epoxy. I destroyed one to learn this. Inside there are two coils, one with a permanent magnet and fine wire, the other with a ferrite core and heavy wire. The permanent magnet coil is just a simple pickup. The signal from this pickup is amplified (a simple LM386 audio amp chip), and drives the other coil, which in turn drives the string, in phase with the original signal. This results in positive feedback with the mechanical motion of the string in the loop. The vibrations will get surprisingly strong, although it does build up rather slowly. - Ron ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 12:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Alan dot Maguire at mercer dot ie Subject: Starless riff. Stewart Murrell wrote: >So, I must have listened to Starless on the Red album about fifty >times over the years, and on each occasion when that main theme comes >back in towards the end (around 11:20 into the track) I get 'the >tingles' and allmy hairs stand on end. Very odd. Dont worry, it happens to all of us, I imagine. >(Also wondering whether anyone understands *why* it happens -- >although that's probably not very relevant to ET.) Yes its relevant - but if we understood why it happens it might not be as evocative. Mystery is such an important part of the music we like. Maybe thats why I never learned to play many KC songs.....or maybe Its because I'm not that good. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Gentle Giant Date: Fri, 1 Aug 97 09:12:58 -0800 From: Bruce Selzler Elephant Talk from et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk said on 7/31/97 5:35 AM: > Can anyone tell me which recordings by Gentle Giant, UK, Jethro >Tull, and Brian Eno are the best for a new listener? Gentle Giant was an incredible band that really deserved more attention. And they were a live group whose musicianship was incredible. The First Giant album I got into was "In A Glass House". It was supposed to be their first Capitol release but the record company got nervous because it starts out with a loop of breaking glass. It became the best selling import album of its time. Anyway, other good Gentile Giant albums to start with would be "Octopus" and "Power and the Glory". If you like these get them all as they are all unique and really great listening. The weakest Giant albums are "Missing Piece", "Giant for a Day" and "Civilian". This was their attempt to "pull a Genesis" and increase thier audience. Didn't work obviously. They each have some good cuts but don't measure up to the other albums. Enjoy your listening, you're about to get into a really great catalog of music. - Sez **************** Visit @Music on Talk City +===+ o +===+ THE ROAD | | /|\ | | http://www.talkcity.com/atmusic/ GOES ON |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| FOREVER.... |___| / \ |___| IRC: chat.talkcity.com **************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 14:22:23 -0400 (EDT) From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com Subject: Starless/E-Bow Hello everybody! >So, I must have listened to Starless on the Red album about fifty times >over the years, and on each occasion when that main theme comes back in >towards the end (around 11:20 into the track) I get 'the tingles' and allmy >hairs stand on end. Very odd. > >Just wondering whether anybody else here gets a similar reaction -- either >to this, or to another KC track, or any other. I get that too! Every time I listen to Starless! I told my friend about it and he just looked at me funny. A similar thing happens to me at the end of Fracture. >I have recently heard of a device known as an E-BOW for the guitar. Can >someone advise me if this indeed creates an enduring sustain effect. Also, >how does this work as I understand it is not to be a regular plug in >effect. And how much money (in American dollars) does it usually go for? >Full of questions:) An E-Bow is handheld, curved plastic thing that vibrates the strings of a guitar without any attack. Musicians Friend catalogue describes it: "Small electrical charge sets up and energy field, vibrating the string until you pull it away. Tiny 9V battery-powered unit replaces the pick, letting you mimic horns, synths, and outlandish sounds beyond any instrument." They sell it for $69 new. -Colin visit http://members.tripod.com/~c1jdk/wrong.htm for Wrong Way Out info ------------------------------ From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: Bears Cd Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 14:55:00 EST I just got the new catalog from Zounds music. They have both Bears cds list! To reach them you can either send e-mail to Zoundsltd at aol dot com or call them at (606)342-5540. Good Luck ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 15:23:23 -0400 From: Steve Earley Organization: Sojourn Systems Ltd. Subject: Art First off, aspic is a gelatin made from bone marrow. You boil bones and the gel that settles at the top when it cools is "aspic". Larks tongue in aspic would be an epicurian dish, and possibly the title to the song is a mosh on British high society. If not a statement about British upper class, then perhaps the idea of collecting larks tongues in the amount it would take to prepare a dish, even just an appetizer for one, is meant to imply the amount of painstaking "collecting of the minute pieces of reality needed to create this song". Then again, add in the idea of boiling bones to extract their essence.....gosh guys, we could go on and on with possibilities here. Second, regarding the discussion about King Crimson, prog. rock, Yes, and all that.....Crimson is NOT prog rock. Crimson's beauty is that the music defies definition. I am here to tell you that the reason Fripp stays in the shadows has nothing to do with showmanship, stage presence or anything else except that he wants to remain an artist. Fripp does not go for showmanship, obviously. So what is an artist? An artist is a human being that brings to life a part of his or her perception of reality. An artist is a person who has the ability to give to his audience a glimpse of that part of reality which the artist and the audience have in common. That's why we identify so strongly with the art that we like. We experience a connection to something that is fundamental for us. Perhaps this is why people regard the artists that they enjoy as if they knew them, even when they are so totally unknown, as individuals, to the artist. Fripp and Crimson are the essence of that ability. Fripp in particular. His presence in each incarnation of the band is the reason that all of the music is so damned true to life. It is Robert's allowing music to be real that makes it so. Think about his statements about how music comes to him and you will know what I'm talking about. Meditation is one thing, but living in the flow is quite another, and I think it's pretty obvious that Robert Fripp is in the flow for at least the amount of time that he is creating music. Originality is extremely hard to come by, and that is the hallmark of the music created by King Crimson. Nothing is ever as you would expect (unless you have listened to a piece over and over again). If you look back over the history of music you will have to agree that the musicians that have endured the test of time have all been innovative. Crimson is not only innovative in general style and composition but innovative at each instant within a piece. Admit it guys...Crimson is not "prog. rock,or jazz, or any other pre-defined musical genre, Crimson is Crimson. Wonderfully, the aspect of reality that Fripp communicates through his music is somehow more available to, or easily percieved by, the male of the species. Women who enjoy Crimson as fully as the men that do are fortunate, as they have a glimps into the richness of emotion that is common to males. Oh yes my freind, we males are even more emotional than females, the reason we have always been cast as unemotional is that "our" emotional reality is NOT THE SAME as defined by and for and in women. Ours is not as easily defined. Why is Fripp so good? Because he is capable of bringing that very male emotionality out in his music. He makes us FEEL it. He communicates reality. Ever feel like Fripp was playing your life? I mean, have you ever noticed that King Crimson's music just somehow seems to be so expressive of the artistic quality that you feel about the unique and personal way in which you percieve life and the world? Robert communicates very well his love of being. Enough of my soap box attitude for now. Steve ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Catching Up Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:46:41 -0400 In 398 Mike Holst says his band, Ice Nine (a good name) was almost called Relayer (his choice). Be glad you lost that toss of the coin, Mike - there is already at least one band which calls itself Relayer, with a CD out. (I wouldn't swear there aren't more!) Elaine wants someone to "fill in the gaps in [Eddie Jobson's] career." Well, he started as Daryl Way's replacement in Curved Air. He's also on an obscure Dutch album put out by a guy in the Beach Boys' organization, done in the same period (1972) that the Beach Boys recorded HOLLAND. (Wish I could remember his name; he shared some songwriting credits on HOLLAND, but wasn't in the band...) (Afterthought: Jack Reilly? Something like that....) Ken, in 399, is vastly amused by the notion of people saying "Tongue in ass" while saying "Larks' Tongues in Aspic," but it doesn't really work that way, Ken, since most of us pronounce the actual title, which is plural: "tongues in ass" just doesn't have the same ring to it, now does it? In 400 Barry Hecht mentions the Japanese band, Bi Kyo Ran. I have all their albums, Barry - including the live album of KC covers - and I find them all subtly disappointing. There is something missing. This is a common complaint I have with Japanese "prog" groups. I don't consider myself racist, but I've yet to hear a "symphonic rock" or progressive Japanese band that I felt was really good. (I'll exempt Il Berlione, which is more fusion/jazz oriented. The Japanese are better at jazz.) They have the technical chops, but bring nothing new, nothing inspired from their own culture, to the music, and the music is a competent synthesis of European music, but a copy at best. Italians bring their own culture to their progressive rock ("pop Italiano"), as do those in Germany, France, eastern Europe, etc. I hear nothing "Japanese" in the music of Japanese groups that would correspond to this - just well-played mediocrities...and I have several hundred CDs of Japanese groups, sigh.... Julio wonders if he should get Volumes 3 & 4 of EPITAPH. Sound is no worse than some of Vol. 1, and quality of performance is at least as good as that on the first two volumes. If you liked 1 & 2, you'll like 3 & 4. -- TW (Dr.P) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:36:50 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Subject: We'll let you know... (eventually) Wow. Leave the office for a week and all the ETers are cranking out posts! I read through issues 398-401 looking for responses to the following, so hopefully my reply won't be made redundant by a pile of other responses (insert wry Philip Glass aside here--on second thought, don't!): Scott Hamrick wrote (ET#398): >To everybody else on ET, especially the younger members, let me say one >thing: Forget what it's cool to like or not like, forget what Rolling Stone >Magazine or crotchety prog haters on ET tell you is good music. Form your >own opinions by actively listening and discovering new kinds of music (Old >music is new if you've never heard it.) I didn't grow up listening to prog >rock in the '70s when it was relatively popular. I discovered it on my own >amidst a Generation X world of musical nonsense. When everybody else my age >was listening to Nirvana and whatever else MTV stuffed down their throats, >I was going against the grain (being "alternative," if you will) and >discovering Yes, Genesis, the Mahavishnu Orchestra and eventually more >avant-garde groups like Magma, Tangerine Dream and Univers Zero. You're >perfectly free to like or not like prog rock, jazz fusion or any of the >artists that operate within their realms, but decide for yourself. >As a misguided, self-righteous Smashing Pumpkins/Lenny Kravitz fan once >told me, "Free your mind." >Bring on the flames. To which I would respond, publicly: thanks. Music is best listened to with a wide-open mind. KC, Miles, Balinese gamelan...all are wonderful in their own way. If you don't like it, fine--check out something else. But the important thing is to investigate! Ted White wrote in #398: >I've never heard of "Pt. 1" being performed live by any of the band's >incarnations, while "Pt. 2" and the 80s' "Pt. 3" has been performed live >many times. "Pt. 1" strikes me as much richer and more subtle. I believe it was Biffy who mentioned the TGD versions. There's also *at least* one boot version (sorry Robert), on a release called _Doctor D_ (live at Richard's in Atlanta, 1973)--pretty good quality and notably different from the studio version, especially the opening (maybe Jamie provided the studio version's mbira?). And in #399 Ted also wrote: >Julius Saroka amplifies on my comments about Fripp's appearance on VdGG >albums and Peter Hammill's first solo album, and adds Peter's vocals on >EXPOSURE (Fripp's first solo album). As I understand it, Daryl Hall >(whose solo album Fripp produced) was supposed to do those vocals (and >in fact recorded them first), but RCA wouldn't give permission for his >appearance on the album, so Peter rerecorded them. (I wonder if those >versions have ever gained any circulation?) I'm surprised no one responded to this. Hall's vocals on what became "I May Not Have Enough of Me But I've Had Enough of You" can be found on Hall's _Sacred Songs_ album (which RCA finally released around 1980; now out of print, I believe) under the title "NYCNY." It blisters! By far Hall's wildest vocal (nothing like "Sara Smile" :-] ) Elsewhere there's lots of cool Frippertronics touches to some generally mediocre Hall songs... Chuck Biel wrote in #401: >This next question intends to imply no insult. >Given the potential intellectual capacity of most King Crimson >enthusiasts, why do we not see more postings on the content of KC's >music? >Harmonic analysis, access to transcriptions of solos/passages or >complete scores along with references to world music influences and >other related factors would dignify these editions and put credit where >credit is due. >I have challenged myself to meet the responsibility (as a musician >/listener) to delve into the workings of the music offered and I extend >this challenge to all kind Crimson watchers. To which I add, amen to that! How about it, Toby? If those who aren't interested don't want to read them, they can just scroll past (as I do with the proProg/antiProg threads, among others...). I personally think KC's music is *very* different, in a music-theory sense, from other prog-rock groups of the period. It would be interesting to explore this in a discussion. Sorry for the long post--now back to the G3 and Rick Wakeman wank-o-rama discussions... Kevin Holm-Hudson Department of Academic Studies and Composition Northwestern University School of Music 711 Elgin Rd. Evanston, IL 60208 I am starting a society called "Capitalists, Inc" (so that we will not be accused of being Communists); everyone who joins has to show that he has destroyed not less than 100 disks of music or one sound recording device; also everyone who joins automatically becomes President. We will have connections with 2 other organizations, that for the implementation of nonsense (anyone wanting to do something absurd will be financed to do it) and that Against Progress. -- John Cage It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. -- The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 01 Aug 1997 20:20:36 -0400 From: Jamie Rothwell Subject: Info on Macdonald and Giles Hello, First allow me to apologize if there is already information about this album on ET because the amount of information contained is impressively overwhelming. Now to my topic of question. I have a taped copy of an album entitled "Macdonald and Giles" in which the only information I have found out about it is that it contains music composed and performed by Ian Macdonald and Michael Giles. It is very consistent in the strain of early King Crimson although it does sound much more Beatles influenced. The playlist is as follows: Birdman- involving The Inventors Dream (O.U.A.T) Wishbone Ascension Birdman Flies! Wings in the Sunset Birdman- The Reflection Suite in C- including Turnham Green Here I am & Others Flight of the Ibis (which sounds remarkably like Cadence and Cascade) Is She Waiting Tomorrow's People The Children of Today My problem is this; this is an excellent album as it gives another look as to the untapped potential of the original King Crimson. I enjoy this tape greatly but I cannot find any information about the album or whether I could obtain a CD or record of it. If you know anything about this album you would help me greatly. If you know the whereabouts of it in England that would be wonderful as I will be moving there in less than two weeks (I am currently residing in Canada). Any help you can give me will be greatly appreciated as music like this should not be ignored. Thank you once again. Jamie Rothwell Rothwell at golden dot net ------------------------------ From: "Art Keuling" Subject: to yes NO Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 01:49:50 -0600 The guitar intro to Neil, Jack, and Me is pulsing through my brain. Toby is right, enough yes men. I'm starting to feel like the captain of the Prinz Eugen at Bikini Atoll 1954. Last man aboard the ship. As in the movie Bladerunner the electronic voice cries "move on, move on, move on". K.C. to me is not the past but electrifying evolution going past what I expect. Suprise, change, joy. Sturzen zum freude ! Fall into happiness. ------------------------------ From: "Art Keuling" Subject: !one more thing Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 02:14:37 -0600 Analog vs. digital. IRRELEVANT ! Enjoy it all !!! ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #403 ********************************