Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #402 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 402 Wednesday, 30 July 1997 Today's Topics: RE: Elephant Talk Digest #400 Crimson gamelan influences No Subject Re: Riley, Gamelan, Mole Heyy Trivial ramblings =) Tony Levin; Joy Askew A visit from the Crimson King Fripp's Occult Interests. Epitaph 1-hour special! Vinyl Sound Quality Damage The occult Resplendent in divergence Damage, Recommendations Re: Elephant Talk Digest #400 Starless Tingles E-BOW Re - KC productivity Resplendent in divergence Damage, Recommendations Re: Elephant Talk Digest #400 FFWD IMHO Vinyl Reflections Kids' favourite KC tracks - a late nomination! RE: ET401 / John Wetton & the idea for RED ? can't we all live as one? Mike Spindloe's post to ET400 Danny Baker - not all bad! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 18:54:12 From: drj_saro Subject: RE: Elephant Talk Digest #400 > >And now a question: I recently found a copy of the self titled Matching Mole >lp from 1972. I've been told by numerous people that Fripp is all over this >album, although he is not credited (although they do thank Bob for his help - >hint.). Does anyone know for sure if this is indeed Fripp? A couple of trax >on the second side of the lp definitely give the argument some credibility. > >Any answers would be appreciated. > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- the guitar work on the first Matching Mole record is ALL by Phil Miller! (check out his work with Hatfield & the North or National Health, too!) (and there are _many_ Bobs in the world, chances are that the one being thanked is _not_ Fripp.) Fripp _produced_ the 2nd (Little Red Record), but did not play on that one either! (Robert Wyatt crossed paths with Fripp during the Centipede project.) *------------------------------------- Name: Julius J. SAROKA E-mail: drj_saro Date: 7/28/97 Time: 6:54:14 PM This message was sent by Chameleon (in the Shadow of the Night) *------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:37:15 +0800 From: David Dudgeon Subject: Crimson gamelan influences John from Hong Kong said: Not to criticize anybody in particular, but it seems to me that ideas like >this one of KC being influenced by Balinese gamelan tend to be thrown about >quite casually without people actually stopping to *listen* to the music >themselves and try to hear if there is a connection. > Not to overextend this thread, but it seems to me that John has a point. While there may have been a gamelan influence on Crimson in the 1980s, I think that it was Javan (or maybe Sumatran) gamelan and not Balinese gamelan. The two sound quite different. I supsect Javan gamelan influenced Steve Reich also (e.g. his 'Drumming' maybe?) and there is a degree of similarity between some of his work and 80s Crimson compostions. Another relevant piece is Neil Ardley's composition 'A Kalidescope of Rainbows' (!970's jazz rock - long out of print I guess). Some of the melodies and rhythms resemble Crimson, and Ardley was strongly influenced by Javan gamelan (as I recall). Anyway, a quick listen to some Balinese gamelan helps clarify the matter of the influence on Crimson. David David Dudgeon Professor, Department of Ecology & Biodiversity, The University of Hong Kong, Pokfulam Road, Hong Kong SAR, China. Tel. 852-28597019/852-29755632 Fax. 852-25176082/852-25177997 http://www.hku.hk/ecology/dd.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:09:45 -0400 (EDT) From: MikeH97 at aol dot com Subject: No Subject Regarding Tom Myer's comments in #401 regarding Soundscapes: I have also tried using Soundscapes for meditation ( chi kung ), and a few tracks are appropriate ( e.g. some from A Blessing of Tears ). Many, however, are much too...disturbing...to listen to while meditating. Anything from 1999, for instance, or more obviously 'Threnody for Souls in Torment,' from The Bridge Between. Too psychically unsettling / emotionally engaging...difficult listening in any state. Good for meditation: Thursday Afternoon by Eno. Gorgeous. Any suggestions/comments? Also, am I correct in deducing that The Gates of Paradise has been released in the UK but not here in the US? If so, anybody got a date? MikeH97 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 19:39:11 -0700 From: relph at mando dot engr dot sgi dot com (John Relph) Subject: Re: Riley, Gamelan, Mole On Jul 27, 16:58, Biffyshrew at aol dot com wrote: > > The 1969 _Rainbow In Curved Air_ album >includes the 21-minute "Poppy Nogood And The Phantom Band," which uses >essentially the same tape delay technique later borrowed by Fripp and Eno and >eventually (and impudently) dubbed "Frippertronics." Actually, Eno has often admitted that he didn't invent the technique. He explains that the technique of using two speed-tuned tape decks was the obvious outgrowth of the technology of the times. That he and others stumbled upon it because all of the parts were there. And I don't believe that the term "Frippertronics" specifically refers to the tape technique itself, rather that it refers to the sum total of using the technique in combination with the (extensive) Fripp electronics. Electronics which include various forms of distortion, pitch shifting, noise gating, and sustain, if I am not wrong. (Though I must admit I am only vaguely interested in the actual devices that Mr Fripp uses, and I am guessing; I am more interested in the final product, which is to say, The Music.) Thus I do not think it was impudent of Mr Fripp to name the entire system (not just the simple tape technique). -- John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:53:28 -0500 (CDT) From: andrew7 at ix dot netcom dot com (Andy Rizzuto) Subject: Heyy Hi, this is my first time writing on ET.I just want to comment on Fripp's performance at G3 when I saw him in Chicago. I love Fripp but I dont feel that is arrangement was right for the concert. You see, everbody is pumped up for a rockin concert with Satch and Vai,and then Fripp got out and calmed everybody down until it was almost getting boring and repetitious. He only hit about three notes and then walked off stage,and then hit another three notes and walked off stage again. He wasnt playing up to his potential,......I know,I know it was sounscapes but thats something you want to hear at home chillin out. Not at a concert like that. Thanx for listining to me ramble, RIZ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:28:19 -0500 From: Neal Brown Subject: Trivial ramblings =) A few issues back (392 I think it was) I made a quickie observation about the ambiguous "meaning" behind the "Larks' Tongues" pieces. What followed was perhaps half the population of the world telling me that aspic is some sort of jelly...I've never heard of aspic...I guess it's a British thing and since I'm a damn Yankee, I wouldn't know about such things. (Baseball beats cricket any day of the week. ;) ) Only Ted White (back in 398) actually elaborated on the language thread though. Oh well. Now that that particular subject has been beaten well past death, I just wanted to comment quickly on somebody's post from 398 (I think) whcih claimed that Yes was pretty uninteresting musically, and pointed readers towards Miles Davis' "Bitches Brew" instead. I have to say, Yes has put out some damn complicated music (see: "Awaken," "Sound Chaser"). As for the "masturbation" side of the music (and the capes), well, most of this stuff came out before I was born, so I can't really comment on that....except to say that the music matters a bit more than the appearance of the individual members. As for "wank-o-rama" solos? Listen to "The Great Deceiver"....there is quite a bit of noodling going on here, and same goes for "Moonchild." (I happen to love it actually!) Also, Miles' "BB" album is truly weird. It is essentially a double album full of approximately ten guys or so soloing for its entirety, with basically no musical development AT ALL. That's it...a whole bunch of damn good musicians soloing for a really long time. Anyway, I digress (often)....One last question (I promise): anybody heard anything (unfounded or otherwise) about the Crimson King's next album? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:31:13 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Tony Levin; Joy Askew Hello Friends: Just a reminder that we have that chat with Tony Levin this coming Wednesday at 9 pm eastern time. Details to be found at . Since I last sent a note about this, Tony has upped the ante a bit for this chat. Sometime during the chat Tony will be giving away a copy of his brand new Papa Bear Records release, "From the Caves of the Iron Mountain," which also features Jerry Marotta on percussion and Steve Gorn on Flute. This unique album was recorded in Widow Jane Mine of upstate New York. With that he will also be giving away a copy of the companion video, "Tales from the Widow Jane Mine," the story of the making of this extraordinary CD. To check out or order the CD or video, just go to Tony's website at . We have a new friend to welcome to The Artist Shop, vocalist/keyboardist Joy Askew. Joy is a friend of Tony Levin's having played with him in Peter Gabriel's band. Joy has also recorded and performed with Joe Jackson, Laurie Anderson and Rodney Crowell. Joy is now touring as part of the Lillith Fair which is making it's way around the country. Not too long ago Joy released her first album on Private Music. However, Private Music has since vanished. She had some new material she was working on and definitely wanted to put something out when she heard she was going to be part of the Lillith Fair. Who should come to the rescue, but her good friend and ours, Larry "Synergy" Fast who offered to release the CD on his own label, Third Contact. So you will find this new 6 song mini-disc called "Gorgeous Creatures" on our Third Contact page at . How are things in your town? Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:44:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Doug Arthur Subject: A visit from the Crimson King I know this is going to sound wacky, but I swear to god it is true. Last night King Crimson visited me in my dream. I wonder if this is how it happens for Fripp. In my dream I am listening to the radio with my brother. Suddenly, an unholy racket bursts forth from the speakers! What the Hell is this!? I cried out. My brother replied matter of factly,"oh, that's the new King Crimson song." I listened intently to the music and was completely blown away. It is hard to describe, but if I had to I'd say it was a cross between THRAk, Frame by Frame, and the opening to the Great Deceiver. I also remember some distinct electronic noises mixed into this polyrhythmic stew that seemed quite different for a Crimson record. The song was amazing. I can still hum it in my head, I'm hoping that I won't ever forget it. I wish I could play an instrument to re-enact the song I heard in my dream. It was really cool. Perhaps I was given a sneak peak by the King himself? Fripp often tells us that he is merely a communicator, and that he is visited by the voice of King Crimson...perhaps my dream self intercepted a message for Fripp? I hope not! The song from my dream deserves to be heard! I normally don't remember my dreams, but this one has stuck with me for some reason. Has anyone else had similar dreams? Is this how the process works for musicians? Do you hear things in dreams and then copy them down? Call me crazy, but I swear I'm not making this up... ---Doug ________________________________________________________________ *Live Fast. Love Hard. Die With Your Mask On.---BRATPACK. * *______________________________________________________________* *Visit my website for the latest in strangeness I call TALES * *From The DOUGSIDE! Comics for people who hate superheroes. * *http://www.geocities.com/Area51 /Corridor/5755 * *Alien Autopsies.Pianist Envy.De-evolution.Traffic Safety. * *______________________________________________________________* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:36:41 +0100 From: Tim Rowe Subject: Fripp's Occult Interests. >In ET #398, Mark Fenkner wrote, >::I would not consider Fripp's involvement in "personal evolution" >::relating to the occult in any way. >>Fripp did briefly involve himself (much that it really matters!) with >>Wicca---white (as opposed to black) magic between 1972-73. This is the period to which I was alluding in my original message. In fact, I have a letter from Robert in reply to one I wrote him asking for more details of his invovement in Wicca in which he warns me that it (the Wiccan Way) is a "hard path to tread". However, I did go on to explore this - and other routes Home, and to follow his music and activities. Cheers, Tim -- Every loving thought is true. Everthing else is an appeal for healing and help, regardless of the form it takes. -- ACIM ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:41:14 -0400 From: Francois Couture <93039260 at callisto dot si dot usherb dot ca> Subject: Epitaph 1-hour special! Hello ET-ers I am a DJ and I have a prog-fusion show in Sherbrooke, Quebec (if you live in the area, that's CFLX 95,5 FM, wednesday 9 to 11 pm). Last week, the last 70 minutes of the show were all dedicated to Epitaph. I thought some of you would be interested to know what I selected from the boxset. I had to select 60 minutes of music (it left 10 minutes of comments). The goal was to have something representative of every aspect of the set : sound quality, ITCOTCK songs vs new material vs improv., cds available in stores vs cds available by mail only, etc. In fact I wanted to split half/half with discs 1-2 and 3-4. So here it, in broadcasting order : 1- A Man, A City (Disc 1, track 5, Fillmore East 21/11/69) 2- Epitaph (Disc 1, track 6, same date) 3- In the Court of the Crimson King (Disc 2, track 1, Fillmore west, 15/12/69) 4- Drop In (Disc 2, track 2, same date) 5- Get Thy Bearings (Disc 3, track 2, Plumpton Festival, 9/08/69) 6- 21st Century Schizoid Man (Disc 4, track 1, Chesterfield Jazz Club, 7/09/69) 7- Improv (Disc 4, track 7, same date) 8- Mars (Disc 4, track 8, same date) I only had three days to listen to the boxset before airtime. And on the PossProd tread. I ordered from DGM USA (I live in Canada). I received my Epitaph set 4 weeks later, which I consider to be acceptable (it is what I anticipated). And I had no surprises with the price, although I was surprised about the 12,20$ charge from Canadian Customs! But it is worth it. Do you know that, in the Sherbrooke area, the only record shop that has the 2CD Epitaph set in store sells it for 51$CAN?!!?!??! Thanks to PossProd and DGM for making it possible to have a better deal. My 2 cents. Francois Couture ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:22:21 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Vinyl Sound Quality Somehow, I know that Toby's hand will quickly squelch any CD vs analog debate here, so I better slip this in fast...... (Toby, here are some ready-made brackets for you: [ ]) [ Thanks Gordon, I'll hang onto those for later use -- Toby ] In 397 "The Analog Kid" raves about vinyl and claims to dislike CDs. I >am curious, "Kid": What about surface noise, clicks, scratches and >pops appeals to you? Why do you prefer dynamic compression so great as >to be ridiculous? What is it about inner-groove distortion that clicks >with you? And how about off-center pressings (built-in wow), warped >disks, and the time-limitations that have forced whole pieces to be >arbitrarily divided between sides? Why does this crap turn you on? Despite his claim, this comment comes from a guy who has probably never heard how good the best analog sounds (listen to a 180gm pressing on a good system with, say, a Basis Ovation or a Linn Sondek turntable ). But there are technical reasons for this too. Although the dynamic range of CD is greater than LP, who cares? More than this, however, is the fact that CD is limited to 22KHz and 16 bits/sample. The ear can probably hear out to a resolution of 21 or 22 bits, and recent research has shown that even for older folks, information at up to 44kHz (!) has a definite effect on sound quality (it is not directly audible, however). This is why a new audio-only standard is being proposed for DVD--96Ksamples/sec, at 22 bits. As for vinyl, the best has a greater bandwidth and better resolution than CD, which only at its best really is at 16 bits. Only recently has CD started to approach decent analog for sound quality--listen to Eno's box set with Sony Super Bit Mapping--it sounds great. But it took 15 years for CD to sound that good! And jitter is a problem only recently appreciated. Is this important? Damned straight it is. The record companies promised us "perfect sound forever", and it was to a large extent a big hype. We fell for it because in the era of Madonnas that you LOOK at, we forgot to actually LISTEN. Oh yeah, if someone is going to answer this post in flames and protest, don't do it because you "figured out" I must be wrong, go do some homework first! -Emory (Stirring the pot as always.......) ------------------------------ From: KALL44A at prodigy dot com (MR MARTIN P KENNEDY) Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:45:55, -0500 Subject: Damage > yeah, fripp does a lot of neat stuff, but you if haven't heard > sylvian's singing style, you might want to borrow a copy first. > david's an alumus of a highly stylized haircut band called > "japan" who heavily inflects his voice with a theatrical vibrato > that makes bryan ferry sound like kurt cobain. > this one went straight to the used record store. Are you nuts? I've absolutely played that CD to death in the time that I've had it (it didn't leave my car stereo during the entire year of 1995) and there isn't a minute that doesn't give me chills. The end of 20th Century Dreaming STILL blows me away. Why do I get the feeling that you took the money from your sale and bought a Spice Girls CD.....? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 11:03:04 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: The occult In ET 401, Stephen Goodman expressed dismay at finding Gurdjieff's works in the Occult section. I'm guessing that your dismay stems from the fact that the term "occult" has come to connote a variety of forms of ditzy newage spaciness. Technically, the hallmark of occult philosophy is a belief in the existence of hidden knowledge that is available only to the initiate. From my limited knowledge of Gurdjieff, I believe he spent a good deal of energy seeking such knowledge, so from that standpoint he would fit the definition. -- Chris Jepson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 11:35:23 -0700 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Resplendent in divergence And another thing. All this business of people sending posts that basically say "Your kind of music sucks." One of the reasons I love music so much is its incredible diversity. I am continually delighted by the fact that there are so many kinds of music, doing so many different and even opposite things, that provide so many different kinds of pleasure for me. And I am continually amazed by the fact that there are people who seem so eager to proclaim their inability to experience that. -- Chris Jepson P.S. Madonna sucks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:41:45 -0400 From: btomko at glasscity dot net Subject: Damage, Recommendations David Sylvian is, without a doubt, one of the finest male vocalists ever. I own most of his solo work (The exception being Damage) and a few other odd projects he's been on. "Damage" is phenomenal, although I am still searching for my own copy. He's also excellent on (two tracks of) Mick Karn's "Dreams of Reason..." and his solo cds "Secrets of the Beehive" and "Gone To Earth". I highly recommend them. Can anyone tell me which recordings by Gentle Giant, UK, Jethro Tull, and Brian Eno are the best for a new listener? I've been in to KC since I was 14 or 15, but I didn't really catch the bug until last year when I got interested in the Stick. (Now I'm 17 and a beginning Stickist). Are there any ET subscribers in the Toledo, Ohio area? Mark Tomko polycarb #2670 half baritone ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:44:05 -0400 (EDT) From: KRosser414 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #400 Jazz History 101... >First, regarding Wes Montgomery... >> What does Wes Montgomery or Miles have to do with any of this? Wes >>was one of the jazz greats and wrote several good tunes. However, he ofetn >>crossed over to the pop world and his playing wasn't as strong for his era. >>Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow all ran >>rings around him.> Django and Christian were not 'of his era' - they were both dead before Wes' first recordings. Until Wes' crossover pop recordings in the late 60's for Creed Taylor (and there were only a couple of them) he was considered the standard bearer of mainstream jazz guitar among players, and I've talked to Tal personally about it (and suspect Barney feels the same). Ironically but not unpredictably his crossover records allowed him his first taste of financial and popular success the last few years he was alive. Most players and critics I've heard are pretty forgiving towards Wes because of this, since popular and financial success was something he so richly deserved. Although Kessel and Farlow were more commercially and critically lauded at the time (especially the late 50's), I think history has shown Wes' influence to be much more dominant among the successive generations of players. > As far as Miles is concerned, you stress GROUP improv (which means >swing or New Orleans style). Miles Davis's music was solo improv. Just >because everyone in the group solos doesn't make it group improv. Someone here has never actually listened to a Miles record. With the possible exception of the Gil Evans collaborations in the 50's and the Marcus Miller-produced records in the late 80's, they're all about group improv. Ken R ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:14:43 -0400 From: Stewart Murrell Subject: Starless Tingles So, I must have listened to Starless on the Red album about fifty times over the years, and on each occasion when that main theme comes back in towards the end (around 11:20 into the track) I get 'the tingles' and allmy hairs stand on end. Very odd. Just wondering whether anybody else here gets a similar reaction -- either to this, or to another KC track, or any other. (Also wondering whether anyone understands *why* it happens -- although that's probably not very relevant to ET.) ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: E-BOW Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:58:55 -0700 As Robert Fripp has always been one of my "blue-eyed boy" guitarists, I have always tried during the years to mime his playing, especially his "sounds and effects". I have recently heard of a device known as an E-BOW for the guitar. Can someone advise me if this indeed creates an enduring sustain effect. Also, how does this work as I understand it is not to be a regular plug in effect. And how much money (in American dollars) does it usually go for? Full of questions:) Some of my favorite Fripp solos have always been with his clean overdrive fuzz sustain sound heard on much of his earlier KC works. --- NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE LOVING HOW WE INTERTWINE OUR VERY SOUL With love, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:23:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re - KC productivity In response to your comments, please consider: Between 1994-1997, Robert Fripp has released 4 new soundscapes Adrian Belew has released 3 new albums Tony Levin has released 1 (2nd due out September) Trey Gunn has release 1 Bill Bruford and Tony Levin have been involved in the John Wetton Project, and these are only the main productions by these artists. The final output that appear under the banner of King Crimson results from the personal creativity of the group members, which develops - one way of looking at it - to a zenith in the form of the next KC release. As you intimate, when the product arrives, it is worth the wait. Camzone P.S. - If you are interested in Bill Frisell or other Fripp-like guitarists, check out the works of David Torn (some works with Bill Bruford and Tony Levin) ------------------------------ Subject: FFWD IMHO Date: Tue, 29 Jul 97 20:02:44 -0700 From: Lewis Southers >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:16:28 -0700 >From: Bert Rubini >Subject: FFWD > >I have a question to ask about the FFWD CD; I saw a copy of this in the >store for about 25$ (an import). I'm thinking about picking it up, can >anyone tell me about it? I don't recall much discussion about it here, >and the CD is sealed, so I can't listen before I buy it. > >Does anyone have opinions? Is it reminiscient of KC, Fripp solo work or >anything else I might have heard? I'm only considering the import >because, as far as I know, it's not available anymore (I've checked DGM >and a couple other places). Anyone know of a domestic (US) source? > >You may e-mail me privately if you think it's more appropriate. > >thanks, > >bert r. I purchased the FFWD album for about $21 including tax, here in Vegas and I was not at all disappointed. The problem is, I'm a very big Orb fan (big fan, not large in stature) and this album sounds like an Orb album to me. In fact it reminds me of Orbus Terrarum. If you are not an Orb fan, you will not like FFWD. There are spots where Fripp shines through, but it's mostly what I imagine soundscapes sound like. I haven't heard those yet. It has a very full and VERY electronic sound.For the uninitiated, the Orb for the most part are an ambient dance band, though their latest releases have kind of dropped the dance part and have ranged from the Brian Eno type ambient stuff to dissonant noise with a beat. They (the Orb and FFWD) also like to place many echoed voices and sound effects in their "songs". I like the album a lot and if it were vinyl it would be well worn by now (no offense Analog Kid), but if you are expecting toenail curling Fripp solo's you will be very dissapointed. Back when I used to smoke a bit of the bud I would put this album on, sit back and....oh, never mind. I forgot what I was going to say. Peace. -Lewis Rush / King Crimson / Ozric Tentacles / Echolyn / Marillion / Gentle Giant / Gong / Real Floyd / Al Dimeola / Jean Luc Ponty / Brand X / Miles Davis / Sonic Youth / Husker Du / Fugazi / Buzzcocks / Descendents / Television / Lloyd Cole / Luigi Boccherini / Igor Stravinsky ********************* Go Bolts!!!! ********************* Do you believe in Macintosh? Please check out: Join the EvangeList mailing list by sending an email to: . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 00:34:23 -0400 From: "Robert C. Parducci" Subject: Vinyl Reflections In ET #401 Mike Dickson (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) writes: >Bands are now more or less expected to turn out seventy minutes worth of= >music for every album, which inevitably means that they're going to have= >to include music that would normally have been rejected for the forty >minute LP. Even forty minute recordings contain a percentage of weak material. I use a "Three of a Perfect Pair Rule" when making new purchases. If a recording contains three or more selections I enjoy, about fifteen minutes of music, I will consider it for purchase. This eliminates quite a number of recordings! In ET #401 Eb writes: >Jeez, grumpy, grumpy. I notice you ducked the obvious LP vs. CD artwork >issue, in which LPs inarguably come out on top. Without question. I believe the value of LP album artwork has been underestimated by many people. >Incidentally, if you DO favor longer pieces, CDs can be annoying because= to >reach a certain spot of a song, you have to sit there fast-forwarding, >fast-forwarding through the track instead of just dropping the needle >somewhere. Also, you might easily know WHERE to drop the needle, because= >you can visually SEE the section changes of a piece on a vinyl record. CD's can be formatted with Track and Index information. I haven't seen this done with popular recordings, but a CD formatted in this fashion would allow you to go directly to an Indexed point within a Track. Otherwise, you could note the Track time (Ritual, 14'17"). >Eb, who still hasn't bothered to buy any of the 69-74 KC albums on CD Lemme check . . . make mine 69-84, although I'm thisclose to buying Discipline on CD. In ET #349 kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) wrote: >Several posts ago Robert Fripp noted that hardly anything in his life wa= s >arbitrary. I don't know if this aspect of KC lore has been previously >discussed, but you can look at some of the aphorisms he left directly on= >his vinyl recordings and find out how meticulously planned his career ha= s >been, at least in the early 1980s. (To do this, you need *vinyl* copies = of >Fripp's albums--the messages are in the exit grooves. CDs, alas, do not >possess them.) > >From Fripp's first solo album, _Exposure_ (1979): >Side 1--"1981 - is the year of the Fripp." >Side 2--"The aim is freedom of conscience and truth." * * My copy reads "The aim is freedom conscience and truth" >From Fripp's second solo album, _Under Heavy Manners/God Save the Queen_= (1979): >God Save the Queen side: "New music is not a style, it is a quality." >Under Heavy Manners side: "All succumbs to the face of persistence." * * My copy reads "One can act from intelligence or from necessity" >My copy of Fripp's _Let the Power Fall_ (Editions EG, 1981) has no messages >inscribed in the exit grooves > >Most enticingly, the exit grooves to side 2 of _The League of Gentlemen_= >(1981) tell us that "the next step is discipline." Ditto As Fripp-obsessed as this group sometimes gets, I am surprised this particular item ("Groove Messages") hasn't been clarified and included inthe FAQ. Maybe I missed it. Inquiring minds want to know! Robert C. Parducci Email: legend at popstar dot com rcp at compuserve dot com "The end of bigotry will not come when all minorities are judged by the same standard, but when all bigots are." - A. Whitney Brown LEGEND: In Our Own Time http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rcp/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:52:55 +0100 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: Kids' favourite KC tracks - a late nomination! A couple of years back there was some discussion on ET of which KC tracks were enjoyed by kids. "Dinosaur" came out favourite, I think. This summer, I took my family on a camping/driving holiday along with all four volumes of "Epitaph" loaded in the CD player. A cruel and unusual form of torture, some would say. Anyway, it turns out that my 2 year-old son seems to really appreciate Schizoid Man. *Every* time he hears it, he bursts out laughing during the gaps in the "schizoid" section. (He also drones "Okay... Okay...", doing a passable impersonation of a doped-up hippy, during every chorus of ItCotCK. I have no idea why!) Just thought you'd like to know... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 14:19:19 +0100 (BST) From: Markus Schneemann Subject: RE: ET401 / John Wetton & the idea for RED ? In ET 401 Karen Elizabeth Stober quoted from 'My Own Time' - The Authorized Biography Of John Wetton by Kim Dancha: " July 1st, 1974. King Crimson in Central Park, New York City, New York, USA. 'Blistering, dizzying' are some of the words describing the landmark King Crimson concert, "culminating in a riveting performance of 'Starless' in its entirety. "As the evil riff kicks in, we had these four 747 landing lights gelled red, and they rose up from the back of the stage over a period of eight minutes until the whole of Central Park was lit up red. We had the cataclysmic riff going. It was brilliant, absolutely brilliant." Is this a clue to the concept of RED, the tune, and RED, the album ? And about 'one more red nightmare' ? What I'd like to know about KC's music is what you get for the Beatles' with 'Revolution in the Head' by Ian MacDonald (another one), a detailed account on how the songs were written and recorded. I wonder how other ETers feel about that - and who could do so / Fripp seems to be more interested in writing about his legal and business battles. Eric Tamm ? With his book out of print ? Cheers, Markus schneema at icrf dot icnet dot uk ------------------------------ From: "Brown, Ken" Subject: can't we all live as one? Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 09:35:00 EST I am amazed! Here we all prescribe to the fact that KC is one of the best bands (if not the best) on the planet. Yeah, we disagree on which version is best, but we seem to like all the versions. Yet so many of us have different opinions on why KC is the best. So instead of trying to listen to each other and understand positions and learn and grow from it, we blast each other. Improv is better then structured, instrumental is better then vocal, prog is dead, etc., etc. I think it is much more constructive if you state why you like a certain type of music and not blast they other type. And give examples of what people might try to hear you type of music. I am certain most of like improvised music and structured, we like instrumental and vocals, we like prog bands and non-prog bands. To say that music that is not improvise is not as good as music that is to dismiss at least 80% of the music that has ever been written. I think it has to be as hard if not harder to write a good song, then it is to improvise. Lets face lots of improvised music sucks, just like a lot of the songs written suck. Some might say it takes more discipline to sit down and right a good song, then it does just to get up on stage and blow. Again I am not dismissing improv music, it just that I don't think song based music can be dismissed. By that reasoning it is better to listen to Kenny G improvised then it is to listen to Sgt. Pepper. Or its better to hear Michael Bolton improvise then it is listen to Beethoven 9th. I am not buying that. What makes improvise music improvised? Is the whole song? Is it the solo in the song? I think this brings up this whole live vs recorded debate too. Sure Yes plays the songs the same way now its what the audience expects, but who is to say that when they recorded a certain piece that Howe or Wakeman didn't improvise on the theme when the soloed. Where to we draw the line between prog noodling and improv music? Is it, if we don't like it it is noodling, if we do it's improv? One of the reasons prog came into being was that there were bands that wanted to push the limit of Rock, they wanted to incorporate other types of music into it. I am not talking about what prog became, but what it started as. (lets us not forget that mainstream rock suck at the end of the 70s too, and still has not improved much) Those early records by Yes, KC, Genesis were unbelievable when they came out. Far ahead of what other bands were doing. I am a professed prog head, but I wasn't always. And I do appreciate other types of music, like many on this list I am sure. In fact, the person who only listens to one type of music (say just improvised or instrumental), is narrowing his focus too music. And people who chastise others for listening to what the listen to are no better! Life is too short, listen to what you like, and like what you listen to. There is nothing wrong with listening to music that is fun, all music need not be serious. So lets learn to live with each, take the suggestions for bands and type of music as what they are suggestions. You can either try them or not. I have the new Radiohead cd, I got because of a suggestion on another list. I would say there is nothing Crimsonish about, but it was good that some one recommend it here. I have recommend Ptree to any that would listen. Some of you have and have like it, others did not. But if you hadn't tried you would not have know. I think being Crimson fans means we are willing to try different types of music. Thank you for reading I will get off my soapbox, Keep the Faith (in the Music) read and live by it! Ken PS talking about Frissell, I always liked the stuff he guests on more then his own stuff. Try either the two Ginger Baker cds or two Mark Shrieve cds that he appears on. Or if you can find the two Bass Desire cds on ECM the feature Frissell and John Scofield. (lots of improvising going on) PSS Another great ECM guitarist Crimheads might like is Terje Rypdal! ------------------------------ From: bullj1 at westatpo dot westat dot com Date: Wed, 30 Jul 97 10:15:21 EDT Subject: Mike Spindloe's post to ET400 Regarding Mike Spindloe's complaint about DGM's postage and handling charges: I find DGM's prices to be on the low side. For example, $13 CDs which would probably cost $15.99 or more at my local record store. With handling charges added, the comparison of DGM's prices to that of the local store (plus 5% MD sales tax) compares favorably in my mind. JoanBull bullj1 at westat dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:16:38 +0100 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: Danny Baker - not all bad! In message , JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com was unkind about one great band and two great individuals, thus: >1.I have never bothered to listen to Yes for the silly reason that I know >Rick Wakeman is a big friend of Danny Baker. Enough said. Bringing this back to a King Crimson connection, I believe Baker was at one time a fan, even though he now pours scorn on the whole thing. I've certainly heard him -- a long time ago, on Greater London Radio -- quote the complete lyrics of 21stCSM from memory! How many of us loyal ETers could do that? He then went on to talk about Pete Sinfield, and the stuff he went on to do. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #402 ********************************