Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #401 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 401 Monday, 28 July 1997 Today's Topics: CD vs. LP "The Day Before" CD... ?! "Tomorrow on Oprah -- musician Jamie Muir" Tull,Jobson and Records.(The black plastic kind.) MY OWN TIME CORRECTION-I MIS-READ THE TITLE! Flames on Yes :( The Clones Larks' Tongues from the Horse's Mouth Tony Levin release round-up records for sale FFWD Fripp, Gurdjieff, and the 'Occult' Fripp's bizarro activities Tony Levin IRC Chat Re: Op Zop Too Wah RF and Matching Mole Reich, Riley, and the origin of Frippertronics Archival Recordings Riley, Gamelan, Mole Re: Peppercords1wayjapanlolladroplengthanalog... Re: UK WWW site The Prog debate, & PossProds Gamelan influences 'Sunset Collage' - forgotten Soundscape? Sound bites and teasers Bill Frisell, Yes UK, David Cross, Eddie Jobson, Prog & Jazz Fusion Re: Muir live recordings D.Cross/DGM pricing/Rimitti Phillip Glass, L.O.G, Grant Morrison Questions KC productivity Gamelan damage Shaky cameras Crim live tape/Contact flames aplenty ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: Yes/Prog rock A reminder to all that ET is about Fripp/Crimson and related artists. It isn't the place for extended rants about Yes, ELP or the state of the art of "prog rock", whatever that is. So if your post hasn't made it into ET, that's why. I wish I could reply to everyone individually, but it's just not practical. And may I make the perennial plea: if you're replying to a poster, please consider whether your reply is better directed personally to the poster, or to ET at large. If you don't that decision, I'll make it on your behalf, and I doubt we'll always agree! In particular, if you're complaining about your dealings with Possible Productions, or DGM, please contact them direct, not ET. And yes, I know, some of the contents of this and other issues don't precisely reflect the above comments. My excuse is that I like a degree of fuzziness. Love and peace from Mr Heavy, your fearless Moderator. I'm on your side, really. Toby ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 15:59:03 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: CD vs. LP Organization: Elephant Talk Ted White wrote... > In 397 "The Analog Kid" raves about vinyl and claims to dislike CDs. > I am curious, "Kid": What about surface noise, clicks, scratches and > pops appeals to you? If one doesn't take care with one's vinyl then one gets what one deserves in terms of sound quality. [Thinks -- I know I should know better than to start another discussion like this...] Actually, my primary reservations about CDs have (onbviously) nothing to do with the quality of the sound and much more to do with the quality of what's in the grooves, to use an analogue anachronism. Bands are now more or less expected to turn out seventy minutes worth of music for every album, which inevitably means that they're going to have to include music that would normally have been rejected for the forty minute LP. There is also the question of album structure; on a record you start off both sides with a strong song, usually finishing side one with something that fades off in a suggestive or inconclusive manner (thereby getting the listener to turn the record over) and finishing up side two with something cataclysmic. On a CD there is no demarcation like this, so everything tends to sound far less structured and far more like it's all just jumbled together. Further to all of this, most bands simply cannot sustain themselves for the length of a standard CD anyway. (Naturally, I find that King Crimson do not fall into this broad description) I've read complaints from people - probably overpaid and under-worked reviewers - about the length of some CDs, where a band who produce a forty or fifty minute CD are berated for the lack of material on the product. In view of the relatively high cost of CDs, this is supposedly not giving 'value for money'. Frankly, if the shorter CD is a better product and has less filler then the longer counterpart then I'd rather buy it any day of the week. I'm not intrinsically opposed to CDs through some Luddite wish to return to that which I grew up with, or through some form of inverted snobbery. I can see the audio possibilities that they offer and I am grateful for it; unfortunately, with the possibilities come a great many things which are anything but beneficial to the music itself. In closing, and for the benefit of 'The Analog Kid', it is mooted that vinyl sounds 'warmer' than CD because barely audible subsonic rumble from the turntable belt or drive gives a sonic 'backdrop' to the music, offering it more depth that it really has. Maybe not a perfectly true reproduction, perhaps, but sometimes a more pleasing one. Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ From: "Carlos Henrique Moller" Subject: "The Day Before" CD... ?! Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:59:12 -0300 hi all of you ETs all over the world :-) does anyone know about the existence of a CD named "The Day Before" ? a Fripp/Sylvian bootleg... well, i found it here, at a CD store at the beach, if you believe me ! it was recorded in europe 1992. the are some tracks of "The First Day" and some with CGT too. And, the best thing, unreleased tracks, 3 vocal ones and one instrumental. that one has a chord sequence that reminded me of VROOM. the lineup is: Fripp, Sylvian, Gunn and the CGT. no drums at all ! label: All Of US am i the only one with this unique CD ? see ya ! carlos moller brazil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 13:44:59 -0700 From: Eb Subject: "Tomorrow on Oprah -- musician Jamie Muir" >From: Herb Boardman > >Oprah Winfrey had a segment recently on celebrities who overcame >failure to succeed. She mentioned Elton John being turned down by "the >legendary British rock group 'King Crimson'". Wow! Who EVER would have thought that the words "King Crimson" would escape Oprah's Luther Vandross-loving, Patti LaBelle butt-kissing lips? Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:03:58 -0400 (EDT) From: JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com Subject: Tull,Jobson and Records.(The black plastic kind.) >From JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot uk 27th July. Hello ET'ers. A few points. 1.I have never bothered to listen to Yes for the silly reason that I know Rick Wakeman is a big friend of Danny Baker. Enough said. 2. I would like to agree with the ET'er who recomended 'Thick as a brick' by Jethro Tull. It has recently been re-released and remastered on CD and is a great album although I prefer a Passion Play and Heavy Horses. 3. Another ET'er asked about Eddie Jobson and what he has done in the past. I know that he played on Tulls 'A' album in 1980 and toured with them that year. 4. As EMI are cellebrating 100 years of making money, some of you may be aware that they have re-released a mix of albums on record (Round, with grooves) from a host of their successful bands. I have bought Tulls 'Stand Up', Maidens 'Number of the beast' and Queens 'A night at the opera' which is, in my opinion, the best of the three. I was thinking that it would be nice to get a Crimson album on re-released vynal, packaged as it was when it was released and re-mastered. Maybe 'in the court' or Red. 5. I found the 'Cheerful insanity' on CD at Beanos in Croydon for eight quid and it is really, really good. I thought it might not be that great, but it is . Very catchy in places and Bob's jazz guitar is wonderfull. A must. That's it. '''Rodney is a sad young man because he's fat and ugly.'' Simon of the south. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:10:34 -0400 From: Karen Elizabeth Stober Subject: My Own Time My Own Time The Authorized Biography Of John Wetton by Kim Dancha "I live very much hand to hand, but I love it." So says John Wetton in the introduction to his biography, "My Own Time", by Kim Dancha, $19.95 + $4 S&H, First Edition, 1997 Northern Line Publishers, ISBN: 0-9654847-1-8. Of John's childhood, friend and soon-to-be fellow bandmate Robert Palmer-James remembers that "John was precocious, a little sullen, smoked copious numbers of cheap cigarettes called Park Drive, and was already possessed of the black and occasionally wounding humor which soon was to become the compensating flip-side of Britain's indulgence in flower power and psychedelia." At the same time, while tucked into bed with a transistor radio under his pillow, John heard the one song that made a huge impact on his life, "God Only Knows" by the Beach Boys. At the age of eighteen, John left his home town of Bournemouth, England. By the way, this is the same area of England that Bob Fripp of King Crimson, and Greg Lake of Emerson, Lake & Palmer, also came from. "My Own Time" briefly describes John's early bands, such as Tetrad, Mogul Thrash, Joni Mitchell (!), Family and Uriah Heep. At the time he met the soon-to-be reformed King Crimson he met his future wife, Jill. "He certainly wasn't chasing me", says Jill, "but he was drawn to talk to me." Why? Unfortunately, the book doesn't go into any detail. We never find out when they married, if they had any children, or how John's life and songwriting is influenced by Jill. Maybe this can be in a future edition. John's accomplishments and music in King Crimson were warmly received by his parents. They attended a King Crimson concert the night before. John says "I had lunch with my mom and dad the next day, and my dad said that it was very evocative. It reminded him of places he'd been, and when he used to work in the railway yards in the early morning." July 1st, 1974. King Crimson in Central Park, New York City, New York, USA. "Blistering, dizzying" are some of the words describing the landmark King Crimson concert, "culminating in a riveting performance of "Starless" in its qentirety. "As the evil riff kicks in, we had these four 747 landing lights gelled red, and they rose up from the back of the stage over a period of eight minutes until the whole of Central Park was lit up red. We had the cataclysmic riff going. It was brilliant, absolutely brilliant."" Roxy Music led to UK and the famous Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA concert at Penns Landing in 1978. It's still being talked about! I know. I attended a concert by Mastermind last year in "Philly" and the DJ raved about it, then cranked out "In The Dead Of Night". We all cheered most energetically. You know you've made it when comedienne Joan Rivers mentions you in the liner notes of her album, "What Becomes A Semi-Legend Most?" "Joan wrote, "Thanks to Asia for making it so big so Geffen Records [then Asia's label - KES] could afford to blow some bucks on this album. I really owe it to you guys...so call me...one by one." John was in and out of Asia. The book briefly mentions his leaving. There had to be more behind them than a disagreement. It makes it sound too easy. One can only hope a future edition goes more deeply into what really was behind this. John enjoyed his time with Asia. "People would recognize me walking down the street. It was quite good fun because it happened in America. It didn't happen in England. In England, we were regarded as another prog rock band, plus there was no such thing as MTV in Britain at the time." There's an entire chapter about the "Asia In Asia" concert, too. Here's a little "trivia" for you Keith Emerson buffs. The Asia album, ""Astra" also vaulted Asia into movie theaters around the world, although many people may not realize it. The introduction to "Countdown To Zero" is also the same sound that identifies a film with THX Sound. John explains how it happened. "It came from a guy called Will Alexander. He came up to the studio while we were working and it was just one of those soundbites. He had a million of them. And we said, "What the hell is that? It's wonderful!" He said it was something that just wasn't copyrighted yet. So we said, "Any chance we could use it?" and he said, "Sure." And then the next thing we knew is that someone else had gotten it. There was no copyright existing on that as far as I know."" John continued his solo career. He wrote a song performed by Cher, "I'll Never Stop Loving You". John and former pop-star David Cassidy co-wrote the Asia song, "Prayin' For A Miracle". Asia concerts were living history events, too. Pat Thrall, Steve Howe's replacement, got off to a very interesting start. "Pat's "baptism of fire" came on June 17, 1990, when the new Asia lineup took the stage of the Weissensee Cycle Stadium in East Berlin. And John bore witness to a monumental time in that country, "We drove over Checkpoint Charlie on Saturday, played the show in the evening, then went to our hotel in East Berlin. The next morning, we got up and drove back to the airport, and Checkpoint Charlie was gone. They'd airlifted it out during the night. And the show, as you can imagine, was absolutely delirious. It was about 15,000 East Germans suddenly realizing that the next day they could walk over into a place that had previously been closed to them. There were people crying openly in the stadium. It was extremely emotional."" Several months later Asia would return to Berlin for a club date and witness the fall of the Berlin Wall. "There were people running naked in the streets throwing flowers at each other and grinning. And in this club, it was like everyone's birthday at the same time. I've never seen anything like it. It was extraordinary." On page 148, John mentions he is a recovering alcoholic. When was he an alcoholic? How did this affect him, his life, his love, his music? More detail is needed here in a future edition. There are many black and white photographs. A few color photos would help a lot. The "floating head" shot of John on the cover should be replaced with something warmer, even color. "My Own Time" concludes with a discussion of John's latest release, "Arkangel", and some possible future releases of archival work. There are demos existing of John with Geoff Downes, Bill Bruford and Robert Palmer-James. The book is a wonderful, brief, very easy reading peek into the life, heart and inspiration that is John Wetton. Beg, borrow or steel a copy, just read it. "And I think you do need this obsessional belief in yourself to enable you to do it," says John in conclusion, "otherwise you wouldn't get off the blocks. But what I had trouble with was sorting out self-belief from ego, and now I know better. I couldn't tell the difference, but that's another story, and maybe another book!" And please, John, don't make us wait another thirty years. Read the book's Foreword and you will understand the "thirty years". Karen Elizabeth Stober, July 26, 1997 home:karen1 at mail dot idt dot net work:kstober at attmail dot com home page: http://idt.net/~karen1/ ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: The Clones Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 19:31:44 -0700 Hello ET, This is my first posting on this newsgroup so I thought I'd first give you my tenet concerning the GREAT KC. First off, I've been a follower of Fripp and friends since I first heard ITCOTCK in the early 70's. (I perceive that I'm beginning to bore so I'll come to the point shortly) Anyway, so you have a sense of where I'm coming from, this is the ranking of my KC studio albums (please keep in mind that this assessment frequently alters. :) So with that in mind: Lizard ITWOP Islands ITCOTCK SABB LTIA Red Vroom / Thrak (tied) Thrakattak Earthbound Discipline Beat TOAPP ........now before I totally fill you with tedium concerning my Crimson amorousness, I shall get to my point..............:) I've been a lurker now for a few months and not much has been mentioned about some wonderful clone bands of the great KC. I say wonderful as they "KEEP THE FLAME ALIVE"! If this subject matter has been touched upon prior to my lurking, than I apologize. Specifically, who comes to my mind (who I'd like to discuss first :) ) are two bands (although I'm aware of MANY others also): Bi Kyo Ran and Anekdoten. How do others feel about their Crimson influences. For me, it's like acquiring new Crimson songs! Something I'd like comments and discussion on. Thanks for your reading time, NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE LOVING HOW WE INTERTWINE OUR VERY SOUL With love, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 20:24:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Larks' Tongues from the Horse's Mouth Ted White wrote: >Back in 392 Neal Brown started a thread about the title, "Larks' Tongues >in Aspic," and I've been waiting for someone to point out that this is a >"dish," larks' tongues in a clear gellatin, which probably has never >really existed... I interviewed Robert Fripp in 1991, and this is how he explained it then: "The title came from Jamie Muir. It may or may not be an actual dish available at your neighborhood delicatessen, but what it means to me is something precious which is visible but stuck. Something precious which is encased in form." >But I've never heard of "Pt. 1" being performed live by any of the >band's incarnations, while "Pt. 2" and the 80s' "Pt. 3" has been >performed live many times. I guess you don't have _The Great Deceiver_, which includes two versions! "LTIA Pt. 1" was the usual set-opener during most of the '72-'74 lineup's lifetime, with Part 2 closing the set, making the show sort of a Crimson Gig In Aspic (encased in form). For a while "LTIA Pt. 1" was displaced from its opening slot by "Doctor Diamond," but was still played as the second number. I believe it was only in the last two or three months of that band's existence that they stopped playing it altogether. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html One organism--one vote! Papoon for president! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:26:47 -0700 From: Anil Prasad Organization: Innerviews Magazine http://www.innerviews.org Subject: Tony Levin release round-up Hi everyone, Just a quick note to let you know that a lengthy review of the following releases is now available on Innerviews at: http://www.innerviews.org Gorn Levin Marotta - Tales From The Widow Jane Mine (video) Gorn Levin Marotta - From The Caves Of Iron Mountain Bozzio Levin Stevens - Black Light Syndrome Cheers, -- Anil Prasad Innerviews Magazine: Music Without Borders aprasad at innerviews dot org http://www.innerviews.org ------------------------------ From: "Fred Rogers" Subject: records for sale Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 22:13:18 -0500 subject: crimson lps for sale from: fred rogers rogerscf at execpc dot com date:july 27th 1997 hello e.t.s a good friend of mind got jeasus and has decided that he no longer needs music in his life.oh well heres a chance to pick up some nice all vg+/m- records.myself I like my cds warts and all but if your interested heres what he has half speed e.g.lps usa,islands,itcotck, 15.00 ea japanese pressing w/inserts no obi! cheerful insanity of,wake of,lizard,larks 20.00ea giles giles and fripp us promo lp w/stickers vg/vg usa us pressing vg/vg schizoid man bootleg lp of plumpton 69 vg+/vg+ 30.00 earthbound lp 15.00 red uk lp 10.00 if you interested drop me a line so I can work out the postage costs, PRICES DO NOT ENCLUDE POSTAGE any questions rogerscf at execpc dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 00:16:28 -0700 From: Bert Rubini Subject: FFWD I have a question to ask about the FFWD CD; I saw a copy of this in the store for about 25$ (an import). I'm thinking about picking it up, can anyone tell me about it? I don't recall much discussion about it here, and the CD is sealed, so I can't listen before I buy it. Does anyone have opinions? Is it reminiscient of KC, Fripp solo work or anything else I might have heard? I'm only considering the import because, as far as I know, it's not available anymore (I've checked DGM and a couple other places). Anyone know of a domestic (US) source? You may e-mail me privately if you think it's more appropriate. thanks, bert r. ------------------------------ From: "Stephen P. Goodman" Subject: Fripp, Gurdjieff, and the 'Occult' Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 22:12:48 -0700 Mark Fenkner submitted: > I would not consider Fripp's involvement in "personal evolution" relating > to the occult in any way. But in regards to his background, all I can > state is that during the time he left the music scene (in the 70s), he > studied at a residency program at the Society for Continuous Education, > founded by J.G. Bennett (a student of Gurdjieff). I had to comment on top of this myself... I had initially found the address for Claymont Communications on Let The Power Fall when it first came out, though I had been somewhat primed by the number of interviews and articles in Guitar, Musician, and so forth with RF. A trip to the library revealed to me just one reason why Gurdjieff's writings aren't more in the public's path. The Dewey decimal system lists him under the Occult section...! I suspect it was a comment along the lines of the following that got him relegated to such an obscure section of the stacks: "Psychologists have ruined psychology the way priests have ruined religion." That's a sentence that ticked off two rather prominent players in the Belief Business. My initial reading was 'Making a New World', by Bennett, which I found a good intro to the study of The Work; after this, 'Beelzebub'. The third in this list turned out to be "Autobiography of a Yogi". But then I can feel myself waxing philosophic (something not for Saturday nights!). Until next time folks! Stephen Goodman * Download The Loop Of The Week and more! EarthLight Studios * http://www.primenet.com/~sgoodman/Studios *--------------------------------------------------------------------------- *------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: "Matt George" Subject: Fripp's bizarro activities Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 04:22:54 -0700 In ET #398, Mark Fenkner wrote, ::I would not consider Fripp's involvement in "personal evolution" ::relating to the occult in any way. Fripp did briefly involve himself (much that it really matters!) with Wicca---white (as opposed to black) magic between 1972-73. After dissolving the Collins-Burrell-Wallace line-up in America April 1972, he joined up with a practicing witch who gave him, among other things, an Ouija board. The handling of this board proceeded to rile up a number of evil spirits, much to Fripp's dismay, causing all sorts of problems for the 73-74 tour. (Maybe the Rome incident and the disillusionment with touring in general is connected!). Finally, he threw it away forever, in a river or the sea or some such large body of water. Read the diary in TGD for more details! Matt George "The intellect strikes up the tune, and the will must dance to it...." --|| Schopenhauer bmgeorge at pacbell dot net ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 11:16:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Tony Levin IRC Chat I'd recently announced that The Artist Shop will be having an IRC Chat with Tony Levin on Wednesday, July 30. All details can be found at . Here's an extra bit of information regarding that chat. Sometime during the chat Tony will be giving away a copy of his new Papa Bear recording, "From the Caves of the Iron Mountain," performed with drummer Jerry Marotta and flutist Steve Gorn. He will also give away a copy of the accompanying video "Tales from the Widow Jane Mine." Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:13:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Camzone at aol dot com Subject: Re: Op Zop Too Wah As Courtney said, Op Zop Too Wah is the greatest of Adrian Belew's albums, and if I had to name my favorite tracks, it would be "I Remember How To Forget" and "Something To Do". Cameron Devlin A 12 year old boy who like KC, Yes, Adrian Belew, Robert Fripp, The Moody Blues... the list goes on.... just because they are all geniuses, if that's how you'd say it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:43:17 -0400 From: Michael Peters Subject: RF and Matching Mole MOneill598 at aol dot com wrote, >I recently found a copy of the self titled Matching Mole lp from 1972. = >I've been told by numerous people that Fripp is all over this >album, although he is not credited (although they do thank Bob for his help - >hint.). Does anyone know for sure if this is indeed Fripp? A couple of trax >on the second side of the lp definitely give the argument some credibility. RF produced Matching Mole's 2nd album ('Little Red Record', 1972), and he was apparently also involved in the production of the first album, but he didn't play guitar. Eno played synthesizer though, and both albums (they have been rereleased on CD) are highly recommendable for people who love early seventies experimental rock a la Robert Wyatt and Soft Machine. (btw the name 'Matching Mole' is something like an anglicized version of the French translation of 'Soft Machine'.) ___________ Michael Peters = http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 15:43:14 -0400 From: Michael Peters Subject: Reich, Riley, and the origin of Frippertronics Ted White wrote, >Zane refers to "the tape delay experiments of Terry Riley." I think you= >mean Steve Reich; I don't recall Riley using tape in his seminal recordings = no, Zane is right. Although Steve Reich did some influential tape compositions, it was Terry Riley (together with the wonderful Pauline Oliveros) who started the San Francisco Tape Music Center back in 1960 which was to become the birthplace of American Minimalism. In 1963, TerryRiley wrote the first piece ever based on a tape delay/feedback system with 2 Revox tape recorders - a setup Riley had invented and called "Time Lag Accumulator". It was in principle identical to what would later be called "Frippertronics"! Riley used it for years in his "all-night-flight" concerts for keyboards and saxophone, and on some of his recordings. For those interested in the history of looping music, I recommend this article: http://www.annihilist.com/loop/history/Loophist.html ___________ Michael Peters = http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters HOP - Fractals in Motion ..."the only screen saver you'll ever want" http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mpeters/hop.htm Support the Warr Guitar Defense Fund http://home.earthlink.net/~greendog/warrfund.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:50:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Lynch Subject: Archival Recordings With all the calls here for release of live Muir recordings and, before that, the clamor for the release of more '69 material, I wonder if anyone has taken into consideration the possibility that such things might not EXIST. Half of "Epitaph" is taken from BOOTLEGS, for Vigoda's sake! That Fripp was not an obsessive recorder at this time is further evidenced by the relatively limited selection of shows on TGD; nothing from before the fall '73 tour is represented. I don't know the real story; Fripp COULD have dozens of Muir-era tapes ready for release; but somehow I doubt it. The only surviving live Muir-era material seems to be several audience tapes of truly WRETCHED quality, and I am _not_ exaggerating here. This is a shame because the music is excellent and highly improvisational. There's also an incomplete live version of Larks' Tongues I for a German TV show in excellent quality (it was bootlegged on laserdisc), but that's not a lot of material to speak of.. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 16:58:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Riley, Gamelan, Mole Ted White wrote: >in the 80's this >was particularly true, when very few 70's pieces were played (Larks >Tongues & Fracture, mostly). "Fracture"? I wish!!! You mean "Red." >Zane refers to "the tape delay experiments of Terry Riley." I think you >mean Steve Reich; I don't recall Riley using tape in his seminal >recordings ("In C," "A Rainbow in Curved Air") How very, very wrong you are. The 1969 _Rainbow In Curved Air_ album includes the 21-minute "Poppy Nogood And The Phantom Band," which uses essentially the same tape delay technique later borrowed by Fripp and Eno and eventually (and impudently) dubbed "Frippertronics." *** Russell Whitworth wrote: >When I saw KC at the Hammersmith Palais circa 1983, I recall hearing >some very interesting music being played over the PA either before the >show or during the interval. >I know not whether it was Balinese Gamelan music... but it sounded >exactly like I imagine Balinese music to be! Your instincts were right; it was genuine Indonesian gamelan music. This was probably actually in 1981, which is when I heard this music being used as a pre-concert tape. (Crimson didn't tour in 1983.) It's interesting to compare this sound with the (electronic) percussion jam that opened the 1982 shows. *** Mark O'Neill wrote: >And now a question: I recently found a copy of the self titled Matching >Mole lp from 1972. I've been told by numerous people that Fripp is all >over this album, although he is not credited Fripp is not on this album. He did produce their *second* album, _Matching Mole's Little Red Record_. This reportedly was not a happy experience, with MM guitarist Phil Miller (a brilliant player) in particular feeling intimidated by Fripp. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html Elephant shrew talk! Elephant shrew talk! Rzzzz-zz-zzz! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 14:56:36 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Peppercords1wayjapanlolladroplengthanalog... Consolidation: >Subject: Epitaph review on GW > >"KING CRIMSON >Epitaph Vol. 1 & 2 >* * * * > >...In The Court Of The Crimson King rivaled The >Beatles' 1967 masterpiece Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band..." Yeesh. Not from where I'm sitting. >From: Gary Davis > >OK, folks! Here's the big news so many of you have been waiting for! The >release date for the next Synergy re-release has been set! Are there REALLY "so many" people out there whom this announcement excites, or is this just salesmanship/hucksterism? ;P >One Way Records is a label that has had a very important mission throughout >its existence. That mission has been to find those albums that have never >been released on CD. One Way's catalog includes Brian Auger, Peter Banks & >Flash, Bonzo Dog Band, Gentle Giant, Bo Hansson, Annie Haslam & Renaissance, >Leo Kottke, Little River Band, Country Joe McDonald, Soft Machine and much, >much more! You'll find the new One Way page at >. Hey, give Emitt Rhodes and Roy Wood/The Move some props! >From: Matekudesy at aol dot com > >I just purchased a copy of the Live In Japan video. In one word: phenomenal. >The crowd >seemed bizarrely catatonic. No drug crazed yelling, screaming or ranting...I >found this somewhat disturbing yet pleasantly stimulating. Isn't this a cultural difference? Aren't crowds in Japan generally more "polite?" (Though they certainly do some yelling on Cheap Trick at Budokan....) >From: "Rich Mlinar" > >Apparently Crimson >was invited to perform on the '97 Lollapalooza tour. Robert would like to see >Crimson on the '98 Lollapalooza tour, or another package tour, to cut the >expense of Crimson touring as a solo act. Wow, interesting! I can't see KC fitting in very well, though -- even the HORDE crowds would be a picnic compared to the Lollapalooza gang. Huge demographic problem there. >On another topic, the July 13 issue of the Boston Globe included an article on >Brian Eno in the ArtsEtc. section. He's just released a new CD called "The >Drop," which the writer describes as "a brooding instrumental album tilted >more toward the ambient than the rock side of the spectrum." I heard two tracks off the album, and was TREMENDOUSLY disappointed. What I heard was so banal, I wouldn't have even guessed it was Eno. Just bland little keyboard solos over steady rhythm tracks. Light jazz, almost. Hopefully, I'll be more impressed by the album in full. But I'm not optimistic. >From: s craig stamm > >That brings me to the topic of the length of pieces that were produced by >1970's Prog bands. I generally liked the long compositions, but it seemed >that the press rebelled at some point and said, "We're not going to take it >anymore". Thus, great concept albums such as "Thick as a Brick" and "The >Passion Play" by Jethro Tull and "Tales from Topographic Oceans" by Yes and >songs of over five minutes in length became targets for the critics (short >attention spans I guess and not AM radio fodder). Same old prog-rock party line...the press calculatedly deciding to attack prog, just for spite...anti-prog sentiments can't possibly reflect a defensible, informed viewpoint...critics only like music that can be played on AM radio...yeah, yeah.... >From: Ted White > >In 396 someone thinks Crimson survived "beyond the 70's" due to "growth >beyond the prog-rock world." I think that's a narrow, prejudiced point >of view, which apparently thinks little of "the prog-rock world." Too >bad. Luckily, prog-rock fans aren't so narrow and prejudiced, eh? >In 397 "The Analog Kid" raves about vinyl and claims to dislike CDs. I >am curious, "Kid": What about surface noise, clicks, scratches and >pops appeals to you? Why do you prefer dynamic compression so great as >to be ridiculous? What is it about inner-groove distortion that clicks >with you? And how about off-center pressings (built-in wow), warped >disks, and the time-limitations that have forced whole pieces to be >arbitrarily divided between sides? Why does this crap turn you on? Jeez, grumpy, grumpy. I notice you ducked the obvious LP vs. CD artwork issue, in which LPs inarguably come out on top. Or all the shoddy CD pressings -- both necessary and unnecessary -- which sound much worse than the LPs (even WITH pops). And of course, there are many, many people in the world who don't care a lick about pieces which would last longer than one side of a LP. Perhaps Mr. Analog is one of them -- I don't have a problem with that. Incidentally, if you DO favor longer pieces, CDs can be annoying because to reach a certain spot of a song, you have to sit there fast-forwarding, fast-forwarding through the track instead of just dropping the needle somewhere. Also, you might easily know WHERE to drop the needle, because you can visually SEE the section changes of a piece on a vinyl record. Recently, I wanted to hear that really dissonant part of Yes' "Ritual" with all the screeching guitar/keyboards. It sure was a lot easier just to drop the needle on the vinyl. Eb, who still hasn't bothered to buy any of the 69-74 KC albums on CD ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:28:43 -0700 From: Jim Price Subject: Re: UK WWW site Organization: Hovercraft Studio Hello ETers, Just to let you know, the UK WWW page is located at: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/8071/uk.html -not- at the URL posted last issue by Ramesh. Sorry guy, I know it's tough keeping all this stuff straight when working on multiple pages for closely related projects. Ask the person who drives more than one... 8^) J. P. -- jprice at trentu dot ca http://ivory.trentu.ca/~jprice "aLSO THRaK ZaRaTHUSTRa" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 06:11:44 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: The Prog debate, & PossProds Before Toby sends it to the sin bin I thought I'd ad my 2c's worth to the Prog-rock debate that seems to have started here lately. KC were/are Prog, whatever Fripp may say to the contrary. Indeed, they were/are the very quintessence of the genre. The problem with the Prog debate is that most of the negative attitudes today derive from what Prog became, not what it was at its peak, ca.1972-74. Even the most anti-Prog writers in the media usually acknowledge, even if grudglingly, that KC were a cut above the Yes/ELP/Genesis school, but this may in part be due to the fact that Fripp, seeing the writing on the wall, knocked KC on it's head at their very peak (after "Red") rather than go the stadium route. If Yes had disbanded after "Close to the Edge", or ELP after "Brain Salad Surgery", I suspect they might be still held in higher critical esteem. Instead these (and other) bands soldiered on, becoming ever more flabby and uninteresting, and eventually (in the case of Yes and Genesis) selling out completely to AOR commercialism. Then there's the question of long pieces. The backlash against this seemed to start with Tull's "A Passion Play", and hit full steam with the almost universal condemnation of Yes's "Tales from Topographic Oceans" -- not that it stopped either album from selling by the truckload! Let's face it, we all know that writers for the pop comics have the attention span of gnats, so such a backlash, coming after several years of critical acclaim, was hardly surprising. It still goes on: for the past year it's been all but impossible to pick up a music mag without seeing bloody Oasis all over it. Yet I see their latest single has come in for some stick, so it looks like the Oasis backlash has begun (not before time, IMHO, but let's not get into that!) I was seriously into Prog from about 1973 to 1978, but then largely deserted it for punk/new wave and then dance. But in the 90s I've found myself returning to it in a big way, tired as I am of the nihilism of much of todays' generation of music makers. I'd much rather listen to the poisitivity of Yes than the negativity of Nine Inch Nails, for example (not that NIN haven't made some good music) This resurgence of interest in Prog on my part seems to have happily coincided with a limited critical rehabilitation of the genre, allied with a slew of previously-unreleased material becoming available, which is akin to having new albums by my old favourites at their peak. There seems to be a feeling that KC were out in a class of their own from 1969 to 1974 at least. Maybe so, but there were others probably just as good. Recently I repurchased "Soft Machine Six" (an album recorded in October/November 1972, so it's roughly contemporaneous with "Lark's Tongues"), and listening to it again after 20 years or so was a revelation. I'd forgotten what an amazing record it was! So KC weren't alone out there at the frontier (and I haven't even mentioned Can or Henry Cow). As someone else said, forget what others say, just listen with open ears. If I were to compile a "top ten" of classic Prog albums that everyone should own, it might include the following: YES - Tales From Topographic Oceans (or Close to the Edge - it's a tough call!) GENTLE GIANT - Octopus GENESIS - Selling England By The Pound ELP - Trilogy PFM - Photos of Ghosts VDGG - Pawn Hearts SOFT MACHINE - Six (or Third - another tough call!) CAN - Ege Bamyasi ENO - Another Green World That's only nine. A tenth would be something by KC -- another VERY tough call, but I'd probably plump for Red or Starless, or perhaps Court or Lizard. And now for something competely different... Possible Productions: just what IS going on there? Mark Perry provided a prompt and excellent service, but if posts to ET are any indication the new management seems to be behind the curve somewhat. I do hope they get things sorted out, but in the meantime I think I'll direct my orders to DGM-UK. Cheers, David Maclennan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:41:26 -0400 From: Martin Neuliep Subject: Gamelan influences Russell Whitworth wrote about gamelan music being played over the PA during 80s KC gigs. At the very least, this was played over the PA before the show at Nitro (a club in Detroit) during the tour accompanying the release of Discipline. At the time, I had heard a bit of gamelan music but what was played at the show was much more interesting than what I had heard up to then. I wrote a letter to Trouser Press (RIP) -- which at the time had a column that accepted questions to be forwarded to artists -- asking if RF could say what the recording was. Eventually TP published the reply that RF couldn't remember the exact recording -- oh well! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:26:34 -0500 (CDT) From: kbreiner at ix dot netcom dot com Subject: 'Sunset Collage' - forgotten Soundscape? Hello ETers First of all please forgive me if this has already been covered. Though I read ET on a regular basis, I may have missed a post here or there.. I'm looking for a soundscape called 'Sunset Collage'. I ran across it on a web site (forgot the URL) a while ago. It's supposedly on an album entitled 'Guitars That Rule the World,' or something to that effect. I emailed Mark Perry at Possible Productions and he said he'd try to find this track, but I haven't heard from him since the whole DGM company was re-organized. So, to anyone else out there who has knowledge or a suggestion as to how I may find this gem of a Soundscape, PLEASE post to ET or let me know. thanx, Karl kbreiner at ix dot netcom dot com ------------------------------ From: "Jeffrey Weinberger" Subject: Sound bites and teasers Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:57:30 PDT >>From: "Alias" >>Subject: Sound bites >>I would like to know if there are any web sites where I could >>listen to sound clips from some of the CDs mentioned in ET - Gunn, >>CGT, older Crimson and Fripp, etc. Gary has some clips at the Artist Shop: http://www.artist-shop.com/ There are hundreds of thirty-second clips of Crimson and Fripp at: http://www.musicblvd.com Also, "Elephant Tape", the internet jukebox for ETers, will be opening in a few days. This site might contain some excerpts of DGM releases, provided they grant us permission to post them. --Jeffrey Weinberger "Music for Thanksgiving" http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/9984/ "Elephant Tape" http://www...(next week) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "David G. Dixon" Subject: Bill Frisell, Yes Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:26:46 -0700 In ET398, someone mentioned Bill Frisell, but failed to mention the albums of his which are guaranteed to satisfy any KC fan. These are, in descending order: The Bill Frisell Band, "Lookout for Hope" Bill Frisell, "Before We Were Born" Power Tools, "Strange Meeting" Bill Frisell, "Rambler" BTW, I like KC, but LOVE Yes, so there. [ So there, indeed. -- Toby ] Cheers Dave Dixon Vancouver BC ------------------------------ From: Mark_Jordan%roadshow dot com dot au at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Mon, 28 Jul 97 15:01:38 PST Subject: UK, David Cross, Eddie Jobson, Prog & Jazz Fusion Michael Flaherty asked >I noticed that Possible Productions has a selection of David Cross >recordings available. Can anyone give me an idea of the musical >style and quality of these recordings? Are they instrumental, and, >if so, are they conceptual or merely musicians showing off their >technique? Michael, I bought David Cross - Testing to destruction and it sort of has a really dark progressive feel to it. It's a vocal effort and is quite good. I'd recomend it for interest value alone but it does also have a few really good tracks. Elaine asked >One question though. With all these references to Eddie Jobson all I >can recall is how Edwin Jobson played for Roxy Music (another band I >can't listen to anymore). Could someone help me fill in the gaps in >his career? Eddie played in a band with John Wetton and Bill Bruford after Fripp stopped Crimson in the 70's. The band also featured the incredible Allan Holdsworth on guitar. The first (selftitled) was IMHO the best. Bill and Allan then left to form Bruford Check out the first two albums, breathtaking) and Terry Bozio joined for two more albums (still great but different). Eddie also played with Zappa as did Bozzio. Albums in order of release - UK, Danger Money, Night after Night. Alan Maguire asked >does anyone know which musicians played on which tracks on Exposure? >Specifically Breathless, I think its Narada Michael Walden and Tony >Levin by the sound of it, anybody know for sure?. Absolutely correct (if my memory servers me well) >Also on Breathless - is that a keyboard or guitar synth solo in the >middle part? I'm pretty sure that was a synth played by Eno. I used to have the vynyl of this which had a comprehensive list of which musicians on which tracks. A truly great album. As for the Yes bashing and Prog-Rock bashing. Yes were and still are at time's great. Yes they did get a bit cosmic at times but were also quite brutal (check out Relayer). I agree that you could say Floyd have lost it but I would prefer to say they have changed. I don't particularly like the change but some will so that's cool for them. From what I have gleaned over the years Progressive Rock was coined as a term for artists who were experimenting with rock, trying to push for the outer limits. This seems to have a similar tie in with what was Jazz Fusion. Both started out as inspired ideas but lost momentum and direction with some artists. Fusion as far as radio is concerned turned into Fuzak and became (someone give me a machine gun) Kenny G. Some artists (King Crimson) seemed to be able to keep changing and therefor kept the vitality alive. A lot of others stopped. There are still a lot of valid musicians in both camps and also a lot of people living out the past. Check out Tribal Tech - Reality Check, Brand X - Manifest Destiny, Allan Holdsworth - Hard Hat Area and Dixie Dregs - What If?. There are a lot of other albums (eg.Bill Brufords Earthworks) but I would like some one else to suggest some other progressive groups. Stephanie Piotrowski, female musician and King Crimson fan, MORE POWER TO YOU, do we have your parents to thank for this? Sorry to ramble Regards to all Mark Jordan Mark_Jordan at roadshow dot com dot au wisdom is not knowledge, knowledge is not truth, truth is not beauty, beauty is not music, music is the best. - FZ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:48:06 -0400 (EDT) From: ebubier at MindSpring dot COM (Bruce Bubier) Subject: Re: Muir live recordings About 10-15 years ago MTV showed a live version of the song Larks' Tongues Pt. 1 with Jamie Muir. This was filmed (video actually) in Bremen Germany at the Beat Club on October 17, 1972, I think. Since film exists of at least part of this show then maybe the whole show was taped. So don't lose hope on an eventual release of live Crimso with Muir. Maybe even the entire video!!!!!! Cheers, Bruce Bubier ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 11:13:38 -0400 (EDT) From: skantere Subject: D.Cross/DGM pricing/Rimitti Friends, Michael Flaherty wrote: > I noticed that Possible Productions has a selection of David Cross > recordings available. Can anyone give me an idea of the musical style > and quality of these recordings? Are they instrumental, and, if so, are > they conceptual or merely musicians showing off their technique? I think "Testing To Destruction" (the last one) is great, the other two are nothing special. First "Memos From Purgatory" is all instrumental, not bad, but not the kind of stuff you would expect from David. The second, "Big Picture", has lyrics and vocals (I'd rather it had not). Both singing and songwriting felt disturbingly amateurish to me. Has some nice work by David, but no coherency. "Testing to Destruction" fulfils all the promises for me. It has an unmistakable '73-'75 Crimso feel, but is not by any means an imitation. Songs are great, the vocals are good to very good. "Calamity" should've been a Crimson song. As I said before, David is one ex-Crim I miss most of all. I think the current lineup would've benefited from his inclusion. Although in this case they will have to get a second violinist not to violate a "double" concept :) How about Mark Wood, or Ric Sanders? Also, someone mentioned ages ago of upcoming Cross CD with Fripp and Wetton guesting. Any news?? Red Hot, are you reading this? And, to finish off with this matter, and provide a transition to the other one: Michael, you can get all Cross CDs cheaper from CDCONNECTION.COM (and, I'm sure, other places). If you need "Memos" and "Picture" I can sell you mine for $5 each, plus 100% shipping and handling . Too bad your name is not Paul or Ron, cause these are who the "Memos" is authographed for. I have noticed a long time ago that you can get DGM stuff cheaper elsewhere. Also, no order processing delays. I only order exclusive items from PossProd nowadays. Regarding 15% s/h, I recall that Mark Perry explained it long time ago as some trick to actually keep the overall cost lower. Sort of it includes the portion of an actual item price. I won't call DGM/PossProd pricing policy "greed", as someone did lately. I realize that it's a small company with small volume of sales and the "handling" that each order must receive in this circumstances definitely costs Robert well more than 15%. I think mail-order department of DGM should specialize in exclusive items, such as recently dropped (why?) Signature Series, posters, tees etc. Maybe they can start a subscription service of some sort. This way it will make sense. Orn Orrason recommends "Damage" for those in need of Fripp fix. Hey, everybody know this! I've got to recommend something more obscure: - Rimitti "Cheikha". It was mentioned few times before (and hearty thanks to the guy who recommended it to me after I sang praise to Rimitti's "Sidi Mansour" in this forum!), but I feel that too few people got the message. It's subtitled "unreleased tracks from Sidi Mansour album", and online stores often list it as EP. Don't be deceived! It's 50+ minutes long, and "unreleased tracks" are arguably the best ones. Fripp plays on 2 tracks out of 4 (10 and 20 minutes!), and his playing is unbelievable. There's probably more Fripp than on "Thrak". On the 20min long track, he soloes over soundscapes almost throughout. How often (and for how long) do you hear that? Two frippless tracks feature another guitarist, who is obviously influenced. More straight-forward, but excellent, IMHO. And if you like Flea of RHCP, he's there, too. Oh yes, for those who don't know yet: Rimitti is 70 year old Algerian female Rai singer. She's great. Resume: if you don't have "Sidi Mansour" yet, buy "Cheikha" first! It's more ... dangerous. Best deal I have found is from good old CDCONNECTION (no, I'm not in any way affiliated). Best, Sergei Kantere Moscow, Russia ------------------------------ From: Neil_Jones at tvo dot org Subject: Phillip Glass, L.O.G, Grant Morrison Date: 28 Jul 1997 17:43:06 GMT Organization: TVOntario's Online System Gail c/o WRNHAWK aol.com reveals the truth: > Saw the League of Gents on their American tour at > the Parkwest in Chgo. They were so much fun. Sara > Lee stands out in memory. Fripp was > almost animate & grinning one of his INVISIBLE > [empahsis added] smiles. I knew it! I knew Fripp & the lads form an Invisibles cell! That explains my strange complusion to play THRAK ATTAK or LET THE POWER FALL when reading Grant Morrison's monthly installments of his masterwork. To those who are wondering "What the hell is he *on* about?!" I can only suggest you check out DC/Vertigo's monthly comic book series THE INVISIBLES, IMHO the comics equivalent of KC: A wild, disturbing, yet strangely lyrical ride into realms you may not have considered. Like KC's music, Morrison's writing seems to tap into many concepts which are in seeming opposition to each other, but which are all inevitably connected. One INVISIBLES reader (possibly under the influence of some heavy-duty drugs) suggested the Spice Girls formed an Invisibles cell. So Why not KC? There is a strange resemblance between King Mob and Trey. Cheers, Neil_Jones at tvo dot org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:13:36 +0000 From: Charles Biel Subject: Questions Dear Team & ETalkers At this time I find a need to offer my first posting after months of observation. Recently my classical guitar trio, the Picatto Trio, performed "Vroom" (the transcription from the March 96 issue of Guitar). We used the required NST for Robert's part as indicated and old standard tuning for A.B.'s. The bass parts were combined to form the third guitar part. After months of rehearsal the piece was performed live much to our satisfaction. As a result some questions were put forth by the trio. Is information on string gauging available for Robert's New Standard Tuning? This next question intends to imply no insult. Given the potential intellectual capacity of most King Crimson enthusiasts, why do we not see more postings on the content of KC's music? Harmonic analysis, access to transcriptions of solos/passages or complete scores along with references to world music influences and other related factors would dignify these editions and put credit where credit is due. I have challenged myself to meet the responsibility (as a musician /listener) to delve into the workings of the music offered and I extend this challenge to all kind Crimson watchers. Chuck Biel http://access.mountain.net/~cbiel ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:01:44 +0100 From: Orn Orrason Organization: Systems Engineering lab Subject: KC productivity Here are some figures The number of new songs coming from KC in the time spawn 1994-1997 1 Vrooom 2 Dinosaur 3 Walking on air 4 B' Boom 5 Thrak 6 One Time 7 Sex sleep eat drink 8 Cage 9 When I say stop continue I have left out bits like Radio I & II , Innger Garden which are just fillers. This makes 9 songs in 3 years or 3.0 songs/year. Now if KC releases the next album in 1999 it will make 1.8 songs/year. This is hardly called productivity. But how many of these may be considered Milestones or Materpieces. Something that will live beyond 2000.? regards -- ORN ORRASON University of Iceland Systems Engineering Lab VR III, Hjardarhagi 2-6,107 Reykjavik Tel 525 4699 (UI), (2nd) 589 9111 (PTI) Fax 525 4937 (UI) (Prefix for Iceland = +354) E-mail: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is: Web: http://smyrill.kerfi.hi.is/~ossi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:22:30 +0800 (HKT) Subject: Gamelan From: John von Seggern >>Does anyone happen to know where this idea of gamelan influence on KC >>originated from? >If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, I distinctly remember either Fripp >or Belew saying that they were influenced by Balinese Gamelan music at >the time of the 80's band. >-Lewis Thanks everyone who wrote to straighten me out about this. Does anyone else out there enjoy listening to gamelan? Although I must admit never having seen KC play live, I saw a brilliant experimental gamelan concert last year -- an ensemble of five Indonesian gamelan players improvising with two French jazz musicians on guitar and woodwinds. The whole thing was held in a cultural center building which seated about 400 people, and was accompanied by the sound of a fierce tropical rainstorm beating down on the corrugated metal roof... John John von Seggern bass guitar and Chapman Stick in Hong Kong johnvon at netvigator dot com home page: http://www.teleport.com/~bensonj/Authors/jvs/jvsmain.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:32:16 -0400 From: Chris Mills Subject: damage orn in iceland invites you to run out and buy "damage", the fripp/sylvian live lp. taste is subjective, and maybe you'll love this effort. but a word of caution: yeah, fripp does a lot of neat stuff, but you if haven't heard sylvian's singing style, you might want to borrow a copy first. david's an alumus of a highly stylized haircut band called "japan" who heavily inflects his voice with a theatrical vibrato that makes bryan ferry sound like kurt cobain. IMHO, he's not content to simply sing the melody, he's got to tart up his performance with a lot of baroque attention-seeking fillips. yuck. orn's right, the musicians are terrific; but why they'd want to labor behind a stylist like david is beyond me. this one went straight to the used record store. regards cm ------------------------------ From: jmooney at bigyellow dot com Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:34:36 -0400 Subject: Shaky cameras >The "shaky" camera work on the Live in Japan video is intentional >(which, of course, doesn't mean one has to like it). >Apparently, someone thought that was a good way to convey the >energy/craziness of those moments. Doubtless, this someone thought the "comic book" sequence in ELP's "Pictures at an Exhibition" was the height of cinematic expression. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:41:11 -0400 (EDT) From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com Subject: Crim live tape/Contact Hey, all I just picked up Careful With That Axe and a Crim concert tape from San Diego in 95. Although the quality is pretty lousy, and the set very similar to Live in Japan, there were a couple of cool differences. First off, Trey Gunn plays the enormous 12-string Warr guitar and the stick improv before Elephant Talk is cool. Tony Levin plays with one funk finger on his stick while Trey takes a wicked solo. Also at one point Levin plays the melody from Close Encounters of the Third kind (the melody that the aliens use to communicate with the humans). I don't know if this is by accident or on purpose, never the less it was cool. After the final song in the set, Fripp comes down on the stage, shakes Belews hand and looks out into the audience. All of a sudden the screen freezes and letters appear one the bottom of the screen saying "HA HA, FRIPP!" the same thing happens after the first encore, but it says "NOT THIS TIME, FRIPP!" whatever. The first encore starts off with something like Prism but the drummers are at their sets and Adrian plays drums on his guitar by taping and using drum samples. It was very cool. One a different note, I recently saw the movie Contact, which actually wasn't to bad. At one point when the protagonist in listening for aliens, she stars tuning knobs and pushing buttons on her expensive, high-tech gear. At one point I recognized one of the pieces of equipment as being from my Live in Japan video. In fact it was none other than the Eventide UltraHarmonizer - the guitar effects processor Fripp uses. I guess the editors just wanted "weird electronic stuff that looked cool." It was pretty funny. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:08:23 -0700 From: jcsvy at cts dot com Subject: flames aplenty I didn't think my comments would incite such a reaction! I was pleased to see some posts from people who agreed with what I said, but I have some brief responses to the other ones. [Toby, maybe you can forward any flames to my e-mail, instead of on the discussion group] [ Sorry but no! Absolutely not! All flames received here at ET Towers go into the big bit-bucket in the sky. If I had the time to forward mail to people I'd be a happy man. -- Toby ] First, regarding Wes Montgomery... > What does Wes Montgomery or Miles have to do with any of this? Wes >was one of the jazz greats and wrote several good tunes. However, he ofetn >crossed over to the pop world and his playing wasn't as strong for his era. >Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, Barney Kessel and Tal Farlow all ran >rings around him.> Barney, Tal, Django, and Charlie Christian were all great. Wes Montgomery is at least a good starting place. I could also have mentioned John Abercrombie, Nguyen Le, Pat Metheny, Grant Green, etc. However, I disagree with the idea that these other players played "rings around" Wes Montgomery. The fact is, Wes had a command of melodic playing (and octaves) that has never been duplicated, especially considering he used only his thumb! Too often, discussions of instumental greatness are based on speed of playing, rather than content of what is being played. As stated in Guitar Craft Monograph III, "Any fool can play something difficult"...Wes' gift was his eloquence. >From another post: >So what your saying is that the best forms of music incorporate jazz? No. They incorporate imporovisation, in some form. Even in classical music, the cadenzas at the ends of pieces used to be improvised. > As far as Miles is concerned, you stress GROUP improv (which means >swing or New Orleans style). Miles Davis's music was solo improv. Just >because everyone in the group solos doesn't make it group improv. Miles music was SOLO improv? I suggest you read up some more on this subject, no offense. "Kind of Blue", while featuring individual soloists, also features an interactive rhythm section, wherein the piano, bass, and drums all play off one another, as well as the solist. This leads to a dynamic quality. In other words, you'll never hear "So What" played the same way twice. In the 60's, with the Tony Williams, Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, Wayne Shorter band (and later, David Holland and Chick Corea), EVERYONE in the group is playing with freedom. The drummer, the bassist and keyboardist and horns all reacting to one anothers playing. Granted, they'll have certain agreed upon chord changes....but if these albums aren't group improv, then what is? A Grateful Dead "space jam"? > I think you should listen to >Jethro Tull (especially "Thick as a Brick") and tell me they don't improv. >Arguably, they do it better than KC.>Marc Mehlman> I have listened to Jethro Tull. Sure, they improv. I don't think as well as KC...but that's just me. Just to point out, this next person in their post manages to convey what I'm talking about. When I saw Yes in concert, every song they played sounded EXACTLY as it did on the original release some twenty-years prior. Read this about the Great Deceiver set and Easy Money... >afternoon I put the box set in my CD carousel just to listen to all 4 >(and a half?) versions of "Easy Money." Each is different, especially >Fripp's solos and his contributions during the opening verses, and I >think they are terriffic. EXACTLY! When you go to see Crimso, the only guarantee you have is a great show....its exciting to see stuff performed in new ways. Frank Zappa used to perform old songs from his catalog all the time, but not without significant variations. Speaking of Zappa.... >You are under estimating Mr. Keneally's ability! He can play just about >any style, Blues,Jazz, Rock, Progressive. He has appeared on numerous >CD's. Also has 4 or 5 of his own CD's. >Maybe Fripp rose to the occasion, but this was just standard fare for >Mike. I don't have the address, but check out his web page, which has >been up for years now. Frank Zappa used Mike Keneally in his band and said that MK could hear something played, and duplicate it immediately. If you see the Zappas Universe video, he even reproduces some FZ solos note for note! (He also improvised some of his own :) ) Unrelated to the flames, I just have to comment on this Pink Floyd issue >you are correct in that the enthusiasm of the "old days" might have >slipped. but in it's place has come something new...the 3 Floyds are in >their early to mid 50s now...and they have evolved. I invite all of you >ETers to a good headphoned listen of their latest release, 1994's " The >Division Bell". Hardly "boring"...#397 For me, when Roger Waters left, that was the end. Without his incisive, intelligent and eloquent lyrics on the human condition, Floyd would have been like Tangerine Dream or something. Waters' lyrics gave Floyd teeth. Now that he's gone, they are. Finally, one last comment- >In 396 someone thinks Crimson survived "beyond the 70's" due to "growth >beyond the prog-rock world." I think that's a narrow, prejudiced point >of view, which apparently thinks little of "the prog-rock world." Hm. That's funny. RF himself dismissed prog-rock as a "hodge-podge of ill-understood, badly digested musical forms." As someone who PLAYED the stuff, he should certainly be qualified to comment. Or is he wrong too? >bad. "Sturgeon's Law" applies here (as it does to most things): 90% >of Everything is Crap. We listen to/read/watch the other 10%, by which >we value a field. That is to say, sure there's crappy prog-rock (I >think immediately of Pendragon, myself), but so what? We don't judge >progressive rock by its worst, but rather by its best. Crimson is >definitely in that 'best' 10% -- but so are other bands and musicians. >Let's not be absurd and elevate Crimson beyond all else; I'm sure the KC >musicians would agree. >That someone (no name appended) cites as proof that Crimson no longer >plays "stuff like Cat Food, or Exiles in their current lineup." True, >but they play Very Little from the 70's. (I wouldn't mind hearing them >do either song, myself.)#399 >Show some respect. > >Be Seeing You, > Adam Klin > adam at forum2 dot org Show some respect? I believe the best respect someone can show is honesty. If an artist can't take honest, informed criticism, the artist has a problem. I RESPECT the musicians of a band like Yes for being able to play as fast as they do. That's a certain skill which I do not possess. But I don't have to LIKE the crap they play. Anyone who has a problem with what I say...e-mail ME personally. Thanks. Sorry for the long post. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #401 ********************************