Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #400 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 400 Saturday, 26 July 1997 Today's Topics: Elephant Talk Logo Design Contest Belew at NAMM; Wetton Bio Gamelan influences The Clones In need of a Fripp fix Unplugged & Live Muir more 3 rivers soundscapes,Trower live 1972-73: yes please Good guitar albums Epitaph review on GW RE: Op Zop Too Wah My music? Shaky Camera On Live in Japan Seattle Guitar Circle Fall Project re : Bruford recordings wanted Fripp and Gurdjieff King Crimson versus ELP Tennessee listeners? a suggestion Bears, Pumpkins, and Reich -- Oh my! TLOCG - Live - Video Pat Mastellato takimg drum lessons IRC Chat with Tony Levin GREETINGS CRIMSOIDS! Sheffield boot Epitaph Box Set/Lots of PS's Fripp soundscappees Fripp's sounscapes Progressive Rock mail order ethics League of Gents 2 crimso things Interesting Anecdote It happens Dutch Progressive Rock Page ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: Welcome to the 400th edition Hi everyone, welcome to the 400th edition of ET. We've come a long way since the first edition (called in those days "Discipline") on Monday, 19 August 1991. Hope everyone's enjoying the ride as much as I am. And a public "Thank you" to Dan (ET Web) and Mike (ET distribution) for their incredible efforts. And of course, to all ETers. Even the people who don't like Yes. :-) Best wishes to all Toby ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 21:44:47 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Logo Design Contest To All ETers! Toby and I have decided that its time to tap the talent within the ET readership, and would like to invite everyone who wishes to enter an Elephant Talk Logo design contest. The design parameters are only that it can be used as a web page image (Transparent background JPEG or GIF format). Otherwise the winning design will be determined by how appropriate and well it defines ET and what ET is all about and represents to its readers. That may sound like something that's difficult to illustrate in a logo, but that, folks, is your challenge! The winning logo, to be chosen by Toby and myself, will be used on the ET Web site in a variety of places, including backgrounds, with appropriate attributions to the designer, who will be rewarded with special standing in ET circles. I think Toby and I might even throw in an ET T-shirt as a thank you (even RF himself has one of those you know!). So get those creative juices flowing! Send all entries (as many as you wish) to me at DanKirkd at aol dot com, in ZIPped attachments please. Deadline for submission will be Aug 31st. I will post occasional reminders in future ETs. Thanks, Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 23:40:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Belew at NAMM; Wetton Bio Last weekend I went to the NAMM convention in Nashville. For those of you not familiar with NAMM, it's the National Association of Music Merchandisers and a couple times each year they have these huge trade shows. I had the pleasure of seeing FOUR Artist Shop artists at the convention. Richard Johnson was performing at both the GHS Strings and Taylor Guitar booths. And he was drawing quite a crowd each time including editors of some pretty major magazines like Musician and Guitar Magazine who were shaking their heads in disbelief. I also saw John Sebastian, whom you'll find on our King Biscuit page , who was telling me about a new album of jugband music he's putting out. Down at the Klein Guitars booth was a very able demonstrator in Jon Durant . Jon wanted to take me on a tour of the microbreweries of Nashville, but, alas, I hadn't the time for such fun and frivolity :-) I also ran into Adrian Belew and as he was cruising the floor. We had a nice chat. Adrian has a studio set up in Nashville and the various King Crimson members have been stopping by for rounds of composing for the next Crimson album. We joked that the next Crimson album should be called "Nashville!" We also joked that the big music tour next summer will be the Artist Shopalooza! I promise, if I win the lottery, it's happening :-) New to The Artist Shop is "My Own Time," the authorized biography of John Wetton by Kim Dancha. You'll find this at . Fans of Wetton and the many bands he's been in will definitely want to check this out. On this page I've included photos and excerpts from various chapters of the book. If you get a chance, also check out Greg Lake on our King Biscuit Flower Hour page for a live performance that includes 21st Century Schizoid Man and Court of the Crimson King. And then our Voiceprint page includes the likes of Pete Sinfield, Keith Tippet, John Wetton and Gordon Haskell. Gary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 17:08:56 +0100 From: Russell Whitworth Subject: Gamelan influences John von Seggern wrote >Does anyone happen to know where this idea of gamelan influence on KC >originated from? I can hear certain distant similarities, and it is >certainly possible that Fripp and Co. were listening to gamelan a lot at a >certain period...but the sound of 80s KC (as well as the specific >compositional technique they were using) has a lot more in common with >Philip Glass, or minimalism in general, IMHO. When I saw KC at the Hammersmith Palais circa 1983, I recall hearing some very interesting music being played over the PA either before the show or during the interval. I know not whether it was Balinese Gamelan music... but it sounded exactly like I imagine Balinese music to be! If I'm correct, then this is clearly a direct link between the two, since such things tend to be deliberate at a KC gig. Does anyone else remember this or have more accurate information on what was being played? I had completely forgotten about it until I read John's post, but I now recall thinking at the time that I'd rather like to have it in my collection... if only I knew what it was/is. ------------------------------ From: "bhecht" Subject: The Clones Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 05:48:36 -0700 Hello ET, This is my first posting on this newsgroup so I thought I'd first give you my tenet concerning the GREAT KC. First off, I've been a follower of Fripp and friends since I first heard ITCOTCK in the early 70's. (I perceive that I'm beginning to bore so I'll come to the point shortly) Anyway, so you have a sense of where I'm coming from, this is the ranking of my KC studio albums (please keep in mind that this assessment frequently alters. :) So with that in mind: Lizard ITWOP Islands ITCOTCK SABB LTIA Red Vroom / Thrak (tied) Thrakattak Earthbound Discipline Beat TOAPP .......now before I totally fill you with tedium concerning my Crimson amorousness, I shall get to my point..............:) I've been a lurker now for a few months and not much has been mentioned about some wonderful clone bands of the great KC. I say wonderful as they "KEEP THE FLAME ALIVE"! If this subject matter has been touched upon prior to my lurking, than I apologize. Specifically, who comes to my mind (who I'd like to discuss first :) ) are two bands (although I'm aware of MANY others also): Bi Kyo Ran and Anekdoten. How do others feel about their Crimson influences. For me, it's like acquiring new Crimson songs! Something I'd like comments and discussion on. Thanks for your reading time, NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE THE LOVING HOW WE INTERTWINE OUR VERY SOUL With love, Barry Sincerely, Barry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:22:52 +0100 From: Orn Orrason Organization: Systems Engineering Laboratory Subject: In need of a Fripp fix Hi Those of you in need of a good Fripp fixes and vitamins and do not posess the record "Damage" (Virgin 1994 )should buy the record immediately. Listen to it with headphones in order to hear all the Frippy details. The bass is mixed loud so you will not be able to play it loud at home if you have a wife. I rediscovered the record through headphones (and am enjoying work immensly) Simply a great record. (It is a live recording of Fripp and Sylvian with Trey Gunn among others) -- ORN ORRASON University of Iceland Systems Engineering Lab VR III, Hjardarhagi 2-6,107 Reykjavik Tel 525 4699 (UI), (2nd) 589 9111 (PTI) Fax 525 4937 (UI) (Prefix for Iceland = +354) E-mail: ossi at kerfi dot hi dot is: Web: http://smyrill.kerfi.hi.is/~ossi ------------------------------ From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Unplugged & Live Muir Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:51:57 -0700 I would say that the performance of Unplugged is more of a spirit than technicality. One of the Nirvana best unplugged songs was Bowie's The Man Who Sold The World with that great electric guitar riff performed on acoustic with the help of some kind of amplifier. Bob Dylan's Unplugged was incredible, but you'll never hear me complain about the great Hammond Organ playing by Brendan O'Brien. Christian. You are the king!!! Jamie Muir definitely deserves to be represented by live performances, but alas I fear there may be none. With the complements that Fripp has paid Muir, and the lack of releases, I believe that there are either no live recordings or the quality of these recordings is weak. I sure hope not! Andy Gower Vancouver, Canada NP. Talking Heads - Remain In Light (Take a look at these hands...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:10:11 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: more 3 rivers soundscapes,Trower Hi fellow ETERS', Love most of the posts, thank you moderator. On the Pittsburgh 3G show I forgot to tell all that Satrioni hugged Robert after the on core...he seemed really to respect RF presents...he didn't hug anyone else...o well. For the post that asked which is better CD soundscapes or live...for me its live! For those of you who missed it ,I truly feel sorry for. Saw Robin Trower in the burgh Tuesday.Mainly a blues show featuring his new CD..SOMEDAY BLUES . If you like blues you will love the CD. If not buy his next to last CD 20th CENTURY BLUES.More of a rock flavor. The show was only an hour and a half,but boy can he play! The trio did a few of his rock favorites ,Bridge Of Sighs...WOW!!! Super seats and I got to shake his hand,all for $16.50. If he comes to your town ,see him. I went home and listen to MATTE KUDISA to boot. Erie, PA...Check out JIMANDY at a club near you! You'll thank me Till August, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:36:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Carl Didur Subject: live 1972-73: yes please In et 397 Christian wanted to know if anyone wanted a release of live 1972 Crimson material (with Jamie Muir). I for one, have to say yes. LTiA is my favourite album from that period, largely due to Muir. All live recordings I have heard have suffered because of his absence. It would be great to have some live versions of Easy Money and LTiA I, II with the percussionist once from "an obscure English freak-out band named Borris" (quote: compliments of A Young Persons Guide to King Crimson). Certainly, this can be added to the list of "I want DGM to release this" that is growing daily, thanks to greedy/hopeful/naive ET'ers. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:51:40 -0400 (EDT) From: JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com Subject: Good guitar albums In a message dated 19/07/97 19:40:49, JRHARTLEY1 writes: << 19/07/97 19:40:49 From: JRHARTLEY1 To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk From Simon of the South email JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com 19th July Firstly, thanks to the two ETers who made interesting reading about the league of Gents. I wish I was old enough to have seen them (I am 19). Secondly. I would like to point out how dark and scary the gates of paradise can be at times. If you have the advantage of have large speakers and you can crank up your HI-fi without disturbing anyoune else then I can assure you that there are a couple a moments that are truely frightening. Thirdly. Another person was asking about OK computer by Radio Head. As I have said before, this is a truely beutifull album.(in my opinion.You may well hate it.) It doesn't sound a grat deal like crimson, this is because they are RadioHead. And lastly. Two completly different bands who ,I think, have (or had) similar guitarists. (Is that how you spell 'similar'?) 1. Stone Temple Pilots. Their last ulbum'Tiny Music' has been very underated and there guitarist Dan Deleo is far more subtle that on the previouse album but more complex (if that makes sence). Lots of layers of interesting chords and all that. 2. Suede. Sadly thay have now gone very commercial and crap since the departure of the amazing Bernard Butler, however the album 'Dog Man Star' has bernards best work on it and also plays many layers of cool and atmospheris stuff. As Q mag said 'A must for any record collection'. This album is as emotionly moving as OK computer. Next time I promise to write more about Crimson. Simon. >> --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Good guitar albums Date: 97-07-15 15:40:49 EDT From: JRHARTLEY1 To: et at cs dot man dot uk >From Simon of the South email JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com 15th July Firstly, thanks to the two ETers who made interesting reading about the league of Gents. I wish I was old enough to have seen them (I am 19). Secondly. I would like to point out how dark and scary the gates of paradise can be at times. If you have the advantage of have large speakers and you can crank up your HI-fi without disturbing anyoune else then I can assure you that there are a couple a moments that are truely frightening. Thirdly. Another person was asking about OK computer by Radio Head. As I have said before, this is a truely beutifull album.(in my opinion.You may well hate it.) It doesn't sound a grat deal like crimson, this is because they are RadioHead. And lastly. Two completly different bands who ,I think, have (or had) similar guitarists. (Is that how you spell 'similar'?) 1. Stone Temple Pilots. Their last ulbum'Tiny Music' has been very underated and there guitarist Dan Deleo is far more subtle that on the previouse album but more complex (if that makes sence). Lots of layers of interesting chords and all that. 2. Suede. Sadly thay have now gone very commercial and crap since the departure of the amazing Bernard Butler, however the album 'Dog Man Star' has bernards best work on it and also plays many layers of cool and atmospheris stuff. As Q mag said 'A must for any record collection'. This album is as emotionly moving as OK computer. Next time I promise to write more about Crimson. Simon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:58:27 -0300 From: Julio =?iso-8859-1?Q?C=E9sar?= Errecart Subject: Epitaph review on GW I tought it would be interesting to share the following review of "Epitaph" (which got four out of five stars), as it appeared on the July 1997 printed edition of Guitar World magazine, since it isn't available on-line AFAIK. It was written by the mag's Editor-In-Chief Mr. Brad Tolinski and it goes like follows: "KING CRIMSON Epitaph Vol. 1 & 2 * * * * (DISCIPLINE GLOBAL MOBILE) In 1969, King Crimson released one of the most remarkable and original debuts in rock history. In The Court Of The Crimson King rivaled The Beatles' 1967 masterpiece Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. But where The Beatles used their vision to create a whimsical song cycle of irresistible, uplifting pop, Crimson had their eye on the dark side of the moon. Songs like "21st Century Schizoid Man" and "Epitaph" were brilliantly sophisticated - and seriously unhinged. Perhaps the most amazing thing about the '69 edition of Crimson is that, unlike The Beatles, they could actually reproduce their complex progressive rock in a live setting. Featuring multi-instrumentalist/Mellotron wizard Ian McDonald (who later founded Foreigner) and guitar virtuoso Robert Fripp, the band caused one critic of the era to gasp that their concerts had "the majesty and tragedy of Hell". Now, over 25 years later, it is our turn to gasp. Epitaph Vol. 1 & 2 is a double album consisting of four live performances from a band in its prime. While the audio quality is dodgy at times (the set was compiled from various bootlegs and recordings that belonged to the original band), the awesome power and grandeur of the King is fully intact. Fans will swoon ovr the inclusion of three tracks from the band's legendary November 21, 1969 show a the Fillmore East, which is widely held to be their best performance in America ever. For the progressive rock novice, I would recommend first buying the original studio version of In The Court Of The Crimson King (Caroline). For the rest of the Crimson's loyal subjects, Epitaph is essential listening and a fitting monument to a monumental band. - BRAD TOLINSKI [From Guitar World July 1997]" By the way, regarding Epitaph I have to say (poor sound and all) that the Fillmore East take of 21stCSM has to be the most murderous ever. Michael Giles is particularly a revelation, and the bands nails the unison break *perfectly*. Finally a question to you ETrs, can anyone comment on the quality of the two further volumes of Epitaph (Plumton and Chesterfield) on terms of performance and sound. I'm considering trying to order 'em from DGM but I'd like to hear first opinions of people who have listened to them (private mail welcomed). Thanks a lot. Regards, Julio C=E9sar.- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 97 23:57:38 UT From: "Courtney Key" Subject: RE: Op Zop Too Wah I agree wholeheartedly that this is one of Adrian's best efforts to date. I think its real strength is how well it all holds together as an album - unlike other Belew CDs I have, I would be hard-pressed to name just one _song_ that stands out, but as a whole I think it is wonderful! Courtney Key A 19-year-old female who enjoys Crimso just....because!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:30:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuff4Nick at aol dot com Subject: My music? Art wrote: <> Whats more important? Being someone else or being yourself. I for one would much rather hear you play with your 1/2 second delay saying the things you will say rather than trying to quote someone else. Mimicry goes does not make one great or competent. You don't listen to KC because they play a well executed Def Leppard tune or vice versa. nICK m 7/19/97 http://members.aol.com/stuff4nick ------------------------------ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: Shaky Camera On Live in Japan Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:34:00 -0400 My .02 on the shaky camera work in the Live in Japan. The "shaky" camera work on the Live in Japan video is intentional (which, of course, doesn't mean one has to like it). It occurs several times during the vid at strategic times when the music is most raucous. Apparently, someone thought that was a good way to convey the energy/craziness of those moments. The shaky camera work doesn't bother me, but it also doesn't do anything for me. It occurs in very short bursts, so it's no big deal. On the whole Live in Japan is a MASTERPIECE in almost all visual, musical and artistic senses. In particular, the sound quality is the best of all the 90s releases. I recommend listening to it with headphones on. It's also fab because it demonstrates the magnificence of some of the compositional work. I saw the Thrak tour twice, but never really grasped the intricacy and delicacy of some of the new tunes. If you consider yourself a fan, and you haven't at least seen the video on a high-quality VCR and stereo, you're depriving yourself of some wonderful entertainment. Since I obtained the vid, I have hardly listened to ThrakAttack and B'Boom. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 23:05:29 -0500 From: Murray Kopelberg Subject: Seattle Guitar Circle Fall Project SEATTLE GUITAR CIRCLE FALL PROJECT *---------------------------------- THE SGC EXTENDED COURSE: Dates: 19. September - 25. October 1997 Where: Seattle, Washington. USA This course is open to those who have attended a Guitar Craft course or an introductory event, and/or a Guitar Circling weekend. Participation is not limited to guitar, and you are invited to participate even if you do not play an instrument. If you are unsure about your preparation for this course, email for more information. Note: this course is also open as a special edition as an At-A-Distance course. One skill, if done well, is plenty. One skill, if taken on with the intention to learn well, is enough... A strong bow sets the arrow free... ________________________ For more information about this course, general questions about Guitar Craft or other upcoming events, contact: mkopelbe at students dot wisc dot edu _____________________________ Murray Kopelberg Guitar Craft Registrar -- North America mkopelbe at students dot wisc dot edu _____________________________ ------------------------------ From: Hans Scharkowitz Subject: re : Bruford recordings wanted Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:23:34 +0100 Hi ET talkers, hi Chris You wrote on Elephant Talk Digest #397 >> >> I am looking for the _Music for Piano and Drums_ album by >>Moraz/Bruford on CD. Has this been issued on disc? Also I'm wondering where >> find a couple of "unofficial" recordings... >>Moraz/Bruford - The Story of Pb (live 1985) >> Earthworks - Heaven's in Here >> Any help on where to find these discs is appreciated. As far as I know, Earthworks released the following records : ( I own them all ) Earthworks (1987) / EG Records EEGCD 48 DIG ? (1989) / EG Records EEGCD 60 all heaven broke loose (1991) / EG Records EEG 2103-2 stamping ground (live 1994) / Virgin / BBC 7243 8 39476 2 1 I have seen all of them with the exception of "DIG ?" in German record stores recently. The "DIG ?" record was a small issue. It was not available in Germany and had to be ordered from UK. I remember having seen a "Moraz / Bruford" record a few years ago in the record stores, but I am not sure, if it the one mentioned above. Look in the WWW for this record. "Heaven?s in Here" is a song from David Bowie?s first Tin Machine album, which I also appreciate a lot. And now we can spin back to Fripp. Let?s remember Fripp?s genious contribution to the Bowie records "Heroes" and "Scary Monsters" ... I hope this helps. Hans ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 17:49:26 +0100 From: Neil Talbott Subject: Fripp and Gurdjieff In message , Art Keuling writes >I believe any similarity between Fripp and Glass (and I feel there is some) >is purely coincidental. What I have not seen in any posts since I joined >in is any reference to Gurdjieff. Fripp trys hard to live in the moment. > I have to say that I think that comparing Fripp to Gurdjieff is a dangerous occupation. Gurdjieff was a remarkable man...he was also a remarkable confidence trickster. Fripp is a remarkable musician, but I don't think he'd take kindly to being called (by inference) a con-man. If there is any similarity or link between the two, then cite J G Bennet who fell out with Gurdjieff, or the pithy obscurity of some of Robert's writings could be deemed as defiant to logical analysis as the writings of Gurdjieff; but beyond that...? Fripp is unique, Glass is unique, Coltrane is unique, Gurdjieff is unique. To compare any of these major figures to each other is to either lay down poorly labelled sign posts or red herrings, but no more useful than that. Toby, can we please put an end to the King Crimson goes acoustic issue before it becomes overwhelming, Why are so many people intent on wanting to hear KC play acoustic when it's not natural to the music... are they trying to straitjacket the performers? It is generally considered that (acoustic) classical music performed on synthesizers a la Tomita is an abomination, and Hendrix songs performed by a string quartet are pretty feeble divorced from their natural ambience. But if people want it, then we'll be having Tangerine Dream and Jarre performing on harmoniums and pianos devoid of all the synthesizer washes and colours that make their music listenable. Do we really want to hear RED or THRAK on acoustic instruments? Do we want to give Robert and David headaches trying to set up an acoustic sounscape performance in some subterranean location? I think the MTV unplugged series is just a fashionable means test on who can and who can't , and the only artiste I found remotely imaginative in their approach to the format was BJORK. 'Now, forget all of this.' Robert Fripp, 1981. -- Neil Talbott ------------------------------ From: "Piotr Zlotkowski" Organization: Warsaw School of Economics Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 12:00:10 EST Subject: King Crimson versus ELP Alex Brugger writes on #396: >KC are as fresh and powerful as they've always been Well, I must disagree. I've seen KC's concert about a year ago in Warsaw and even recorded the whole show (hey, Mr. Fripp, don't shoot at me, the quality is really very poor - even worse than on the 3rd volume of "Epitaph", so I'm not going to diffuse it) and every time I listen to that tape, or recall the performance, I find the music, particularly in the 2nd hour, incredibly boring and incoherent. All these improvs, long and leading to nowhere, and passive RF's behaviour (if he had only spat on the audience like Roger Waters I would have been pleased) made me disappointed. Sometimes I wonder if it was RF himself sitting between the two drum kits, or a dummy. The older pieces like "Red", "Schizoid Man", "The Talking Drum" sounded well, but not sensationally. To sum up: no deeper feelings. Listening to "The Great Deceiver" and "Epitaph" sets I must state that formerly the group was playing definitely far better. Those improvs from the seventies were acceptable, as KC were using strictly rock instruments sounding naturally. Nowadays, RF's and AB's guitars produce modern electronically processed sounds I truly dislike. Let's compare KC with the group that is playing only the old tunes and is not experimenting. About a month ago I had an unquestionable pleasure to watch ELP's concert in Katowice, Poland (on 22nd June). Unlike KC's show, this one was really powerful, rousing, moving... and so on. They were playing their greatest pieces like "Take A Pebble", "Bitches Crystal", "Lucky Man", "From The Beginning", "Hoedown", "Tiger In A Spotlight", excerpts from "Karn Evil 9" and "Tarkus", and many more. The only song I was waiting for and didn't hear was "C'est la vie". Nevertheless, I couldn't refrain from shedding my tears of emotion, and when the boys struck up "The Great Gates Of Kiev" - I simply burst into tears. It was the most wonderful concert I ever participated in. Carl Palmer was slashing his drums with a speed of a machine gun; Emerson played jumping on and lying under his organ, and plunging knives into the keyboard; and Greg Lake was great, though he had lost his velvety voice. Well, I would exchange ten KC's concerts for the ELP's one, because the latter was more powerful, dynamic, exciting and... better! Peter P.S.: All the connoiseurs are praising the album "Larks' Tongues In Aspic". Why??? In my opinion it's the worst one from the 1969-74 period (the best is, of course, "Islands"). P.S.2: Gill of Discipline Records informed me that "USA II is not scheduled for release at this time". ------------------------------ From: "Chris Mitchell" Subject: Tennessee listeners? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:21:16 -0400 Although I am a Chicagoan at heart, I am currently living in Knoxville and wondering if there is enough interest to start an ET Local Chapter around here. Heaven knows what we would *do* - listening parties, maybe - but it might be handy to know a few people in the region when concert time comes again, or at the very least we could exchange news and interests. Anyone, er, *interested* in this please drop me a line. Chris squonk at utkux dot utcc dot utk dot edu ------------------------------ From: "Johannes, Gary" Subject: a suggestion Date: Tue, 22 Jul 97 06:06:00 edt First posting. Hey. For KC's next tour, I would enjoy it if, at some point, Fripp & Bruford left the stage, so that the remaining 4-piece could kick out a slamming cover of We're an American Band. Maybe somewhere in the middle of a Thrak improv. I would also like to know if other ETers would enjoy this as much (or more) than I would, and why. If someone has already suggested this, that's okay, I'll let you know if I have any other ideas. Thanks. Gary ------------------------------ From: "Anthony Stanfa" Subject: Bears, Pumpkins, and Reich -- Oh my! Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:16:39 PDT Howdy, all. I'm looking for the Bears album "Rise and Shine" on CD. I know it's out of print. I'd be willing to pay $15-20 US for a used copy, or, if there are any ET-reading retailers out there, buy it new. I'd just hate to give in to the urge I have to buy a replacement album on vinyl, but my current LP has seen lots of use. Oh, and bonus points if you can find the few bars of "Free as a Bird" that Uncle Adrian happily strums through somewhere in THRaKaTTaK. Neat trick. Okay. One more thing. (My first post... ) Has this happened to anyone else, that after years of listening to King Crimson, and then finally seeing them live (for me, Nov 29 in Chicago), that their recorded (live or otherwise) output is unlistenable for about half a year? Incomparable is more like it. Hot dates, indeed! And can anyone explain the art on the promo CD for "People"? Is this an effort to subvert (albeit, it would be a good thing outcome-wise) confused DJs who think that this is their chance to play a new Smashing Pumpkins single? Or a tip of the hat (crown?) to the instances in which the latter mashed-up-vegetable-ensemble has been deigned as receiving musical tendencies from Crimson? (eek!) And speaking/writing/continuing run-on paragraphs about musical tendencies, didn't Fripp and Belew (pre-discipline) bump into each other at a late 70's Steve Reich concert? God save us all if it was in 1979. Thanks for the bandwidth. -tony PS- Just go and look up (better yet, listen to) Steve Reich on the net, in a book. I think that this connection is much more solid than that to Phi-- rggh! [gasp] (Toby's quick with that taser!) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Antonio Cebola Subject: TLOCG - Live - Video Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:23:51 +0000 Hello, On the backcover of TLOCG - Live, there's a reference to a video available from ....(?). As anyone got it? What's it all about? Is it still available? Thanks. Antonio Cebola ------------------------------ From: ernie at pananet dot com (Ernesto Schnack) Subject: Pat Mastellato takimg drum lessons Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:42:28 -0400 I saw this on the Dream Theater mailing list... thought you guys would be interested. Ernie ******* Well I just got back from two weeks of playing jazz at the University of North Texas State (recently named the #1 jazz school in the country by Forbes or something like that, and I believe it). One of my fellow students who was in the intermediate group with me was Pat Mastellato, the drummer for King Crimson!! He is a really cool guy and a great drummer also, he did all sorts of weird polyrythym stuff that was really cool.. but he came to learn how to play with more finesse and better technique and learn a little about jazz, which he has really never played at all before. So here is some insider info for all the KC fans.. Pat said they might do something small next year (not a full album or a tour), but its not for sure yet. The last time they rehearsed together was around November I think, and Pat said they wont see each other again until December. Pat said there will be a new album and a tour in 1999 (seems like a long time, huh??). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:01:08 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: IRC Chat with Tony Levin Hello Friends: The Artist Shop is ecstatic to bring you an IRC Chat with Tony Levin!!! This Chat will be at 9 pm eastern time on Wednesday, July 30. You'll find the details on our IRC Page at . Tony will be promoting his new album with Terry Bozzio and Steve Stevens called Black Light Syndrome and hopefully we can get him to talk about the latest Papa Bear release, too! Tony has a truly incredible music history that includes King Crimson, Peter Gabriel, Pink Floyd, ABWH, John Lennon & Yoko Ono, Paul Simon and so many more. I've often thought that if you put together a list of the artists Tony has played with and another of those he hasn't, the list of artists he hasn't played with would probably be shorter :-) This should be a really good event!!! I hope to see you all there. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:13:29 -0400 (EDT) From: MOneill598 at aol dot com Subject: GREETINGS CRIMSOIDS! Hello everyone. This is my first submission to your page. I've been a fan of KC since the mid 70's. My first KC lp's were Red and USA which I picked up for about 2 bucks a piece as cutouts way back when and my oldest sister's hand-me-down copy of In The Court which still resides in my collection. Although my heart belongs to the rock'n'roll of the 60's & early 70's, I still try to keep up on new and interesting stuff and I was really thrilled to see names like Tortoise and Jessamine being tossed around on the postings. Currently, Tortoise has released 3 albums: their self-titled debut, "Rhythms, Resolutions and Clusters", an album of remixes from the first album that is unfortunately out-of-print, and "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"- in my humble opinion, the best album of 1996. There were 4 remix singles of trax from this album released as 12" singles but all are OOP. Fortunately, these have been collected on a recent Japanese cd entitled "Tortoise Remixed". All releases are on the Thrill Jockey label - a fine label out of Chicago. It's truly a shame that not many people know about this stuff so I try to pass the info along to others who may enjoy it. Other bands you should be checking out include Labradford, Magnog (who says that 12 minute improvs drenched in wah-wah and echo are dead?), and a recent release by ex-Tortoise member Bundy K. Brown entitled "Directions In Music". One other release I'd like to point out is by Stars Of The Lid - a recent double lp ( sorry folks, I hate digital although I tolerate it) entitled "The Ballasted Orchestra". Anyone who likes the Fripp/Eno releases of the 70's NEEDS THIS ALBUM! This is on the Kranky records label- also out of Chicago. I would like to inform your readers that I have both "The Noise" and "Three of a Perfect Pair-Live in Japan" on video. I would be more than happy to make copies of these for those who need them. Email me for details. And now a question: I recently found a copy of the self titled Matching Mole lp from 1972. I've been told by numerous people that Fripp is all over this album, although he is not credited (although they do thank Bob for his help - hint.). Does anyone know for sure if this is indeed Fripp? A couple of trax on the second side of the lp definitely give the argument some credibility. Any answers would be appreciated. MARK O'NEILL MOneill598 at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:14:25 -0400 From: Chris Mills Subject: Sheffield boot anyone know anything about a bootleg called "Sheffield City Hall, 1971", supposedly a 2Cd set? feel free to email me thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:53:43 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: Epitaph Box Set/Lots of PS's Hello ETers, My copy of Epitaph came. Instead of listening to it, I sat down and read the booklet, catalog, order form,DGM Mission statement #1 & looked at the pretty painting. By the time I finished w/ the Financial mess I had a major massive headache! (Thank you for sharing Robt!) I wouldn't want to be one of the suits R.F. is "grudged" at. Whew! There's such a huge amount of info in such a little box. WoW! Well worth the price. There's alot of paradoxical thought & some very welcomed answers on R.F.'s sensory perception. The package is stunning. But due to this headache I have no inclination to listen to it! Don't know if I have a copy with the infamous skipping - Hey, just as long as it flies. However my historical booklet is rather crumpled (I decided to keep it anyway.) Regarding Newsletter DGM #1. Is R.F. interviewing himself? This is very amusing. What a perfect global world. Believe in Good Fairys! Gail P.S. In my post about P.Glass it should have said "Far Enough" not "For enough". Betcha all figured it out anyway. P.P.S G3 Tix aren't on sale for CO yet. P.P.S.S. Thanks for all the E-Mail guys. I post thru the kind indulgence & mercy of my friend WRNHAWK (who does not share our obsession but seems very entertained.) So for those of you who need a response don't worry if its not timely. ------------------------------ From: tom dot myers at bbsnets dot com (Tom Myers) Subject: Fripp soundscappees Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:43:58 GMT Organization: BBS Networks a Hafa Adai Exchange Production @ www.bbsnets.com I've been reading alot here about what people experience while listening to Mr. Fripp's soundscapes. I can relate to it. I use it to help me with meditation, it's a great tool as well as deeply moving feelings expressed by Mr.Fripp through his Frippertronics. Alot of you have made some suggestions on the music, from the past, that you would like to see released. My suggestions are for the past and for future works. I would really like to see more Fripp & Eno record again. As for the past, I would like to see the first live perform ------------------------------ From: tom dot myers at bbsnets dot com (Tom Myers) Subject: Fripp's sounscapes Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:55:22 GMT Organization: BBS Networks a Hafa Adai Exchange Production @ www.bbsnets.com I love Mr. Fripps soundscapes for meditation. It's very relaxing, to say the least. I'd like to see Fripp & Eno record something in the future. also, I'd like to see the first performance in 24 years of "21st century schizoid man" performed at Merriweather post Pavillion in Columbia, Md. on Aug 26, 1996 released on cd or video if possible. Thanks for all the good musical feelings, Mr. Fripp! Tom Myers ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:17:17 +0300 From: Adam Klin Subject: Progressive Rock Ho. With the risk of repeating many replies that will probably follow jcsvy at cts dot com's "USA, et al" post in ET #396 (what's your name, fellow?), I would like to protest this wild attack on progressive rock. I myself discovered the whole field of progressive rock at the same time I discovered KC. For a long time, the two were almost one and the same to me, because of matters of luck: I happened to stumble upon all the best ProgRock albums at the same time, and was sure the whole field was amazing. It turned out that only KC has maintained a high level throughout almost all of their albums, true. But for quite a while, I didn't find KC to soar much higher above the rest. This might sound as blasphemy here, but I derieved almost as much pleasure in hearing Yes' 'Close To The Edge' as I did in listening to KC's 'The Court..'. Camel's 'The Snow Goose' almost brought tears of joy to my eyes. Some of the early Genesis material is breath-taking. The field of ProgRock sparkled (and, alas, sparkles no more) with talent, magic and GOOD music. This was not, and I repeat - NOT - the sole domain of KC. By the by, my favorite KC album (no - my favorite album period) is 'Lizard', which is not only ProgRock, but uses Jon Anderson's considerable vocal talents (a field KC always lacked in, I believe.) I don't like KC's ProgRock period more or less than their later, 'harder' period. I just like it very much. And I can't see how the quality of their work in that period can be doubted, or the faboules work some other artists did in this field at the time ignored. As a final note, there's a tendency common to too many posters in this newsletter to treat anything that isn't KC with contempt. This is a Very Bad Thing. Things should be judged by their own merit, not their title or the name of the band which made them. I still believe KC to be the best rock (?) group ever to bless the world with its music, but this doesn't change the fact that there are loads and loads of other talented people out there. Show some respect. Be Seeing You, Adam Klin adam at forum2 dot org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 16:51:11 -0600 From: vinylex at the dot link dot ca (Mike Spindloe) Subject: mail order ethics I hate to have to waste my time and newsletter bandwidth with the following negative comments about Possible Productions' mail-order service, but I think you'll see why: First, a bit of persepctive: I own a small independent used/new record/CD store in Saskatoon, which for the geographically challenged is in the middle of nowhere, Canada. I have also run Pawn Hearts, the newsletter/ archive/mail order service specialising in the works of Peter Hammill and Van der Graaf Generator, for about 10 years, so I've had a chance to form some reasoned opinions about both buying and selling recordings through the mail. Back around March, I emailed PossProd (PP henceforth) asking if it would be possible to purchase six copies of the 4CD version of "Epitaph" for resale at some sort of a wholesale discount. I was aware that it was not their intention to sell the complete set to retailers and made note of that in my initial email and at least two subsequent ones, but decided to make the request anyway since I had a few customers who preferred to deal with me rather than Canada Post/Customs, which seem to specialize in making it as difficult and expensive as possible to buy anything from the U.S., a holdover from the days when our $ was worth more, and things could actually be got cheaply from the U.S.. Anyway, two months passed and I received a series of non-answers to my query from PP, among which was a form letter describing their new releases and better yet, a suggestion that I should order the box from Cargo, whom they weren't even selling the 4CD version to anyway! (BTW, Cargo was WHOLESALING the 2CD version to Canadian retailers for $37CDN/$27US approx, ie more than the retail cost by mail from PP before shipping (which is the next issue). And I ordered the KC Japan video from Cargo in January and I'm still waiting, which gives you an idea what THEIR service is like. Eventually I relinquished the idea of a discount and ordered the 6 copies anyway, since I was as anxious to hear it as my customers. Two MONTHS later (long after I started reading "Epitaph" reviews in ET), they finally arrived, with the predictable customs hassles and posted to the wrong address. Adding the final insult to injury, however, was the postage charge:$37.85US, based on 15% of the cost of the order plus registration (which I didn't ask for). Actual amount of postage on the box: $12.22, less than 1/3 of the amount charged. Now, I can understand a reasonable charge for handling and packing, but as someone noted in a recent ET, that's a lot of handling! My own standard procedure over the years has been to round up the postage to the nearest dollar to cover the cost of a record mailer or padded envelope, and I'm well aware that some places charge a little more than this (or less...). But a difference of $25 amounts to GOUGING (yes, I'm shouting), and I will not support these kinds of business practices any further because they are simply unethical (notice how I resisted shouting that last word). Interestingly enough, a recent catalogue from Wayside Music, informed me that they would no longer be stocking DGM releases "due to a number of factors, some of them showing the worst side of the record business." Of course I sent PP an email politely (I hope) expressing my feelings about this issue. Three weeks later, I have not received any response. In the DGM newsletter one, dated January 1997, which I received with my copies of "Epitaph," Mr. Fripp basically states that record stores are ineffective ways to distribute product, because "high street" stores don't cater to our specialised tastes and you'll have to (gasp) travel to get to specialised shops. Well, Mr. Fripp, as you say a few paragraphs later, collectors do like to collect, and I think it will be a sad day indeed when we all just sit at home, glued to our all-powerful computer screens and just download music. Certainly the music retail business is dominated by faceless megastores these days, just like most everything else, but there are still many like myself who are in it because we love music first, and to denigrate our efforts is an insult and to refuse to sell us product an injury. The irony of using my computer to voice these complaints is not lost on me, by the way! I could go on and bore you all even further, but I think the salient points have been made. Anyone have similar experiences? Or just want to flame me? [ Flames by private email to Mike please. Not to ET. --Toby ] Oh, by the way Robert: I do like "Epitaph" very much. And it was a dream come true to see those KC shows in Vancouver and Seattle in '96. So, uh, thanks! Mike Spindloe (vinylex at the dot link dot ca) Mike Spindloe The Vinyl Exchange 128 2nd Ave. N. Saskatoon, SK S7K 2B2 Canada (306)244-7090 fax (306)244-7086 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 00:29:07 +0100 From: robin smith Subject: League of Gents Simon of the South wrote (ET 395) "OK, lets talk about something different, like, ...... I know... Who saw Bob and the league gents back in 1980 and what was it like?" I saw them at Manchester Polytechnic, the night (according to the album notes) that Johnny Toobad got sacked (presumably for being, well, too bad). It was my first RF gig having been following KC since I was 14 (in '73), and the anticipation probably led to inevitable anticlimax. They stuck to stuff from the yet-to-be recorded album, all unfamiliar except for the irritatingly catchy Heptaparaparshinokh, which had been released as a single and was getting some airplay. The female bassist was excellent, despite modelling herself rather too obviously on Tina Weymouth. Rf was himself in fine form, but didn't have much to say. The other two(?) band members were uninspiring. The venue was half full, mainly appreciative. RF came to see me and signed a postcard following my request to a roadie. I felt a prat because I hadn't actually expected hime to come and had nothing to say - sorry Robert! I suppose I wanted to hear good old KC, and RF was meanwhile rehearsing with a totally new band. I left thinking that the chance to hear KC live had gone forever; wrong, but I've still not seen them! Still, it was a good night out and remains a fond memory. Ona another subject - as a student in Sunderland in the late 70s, I remember seeing a band called Cirkus (sic) who played some good stuff and did a cover of Schizoid Man. Anyone know who they were, did they record, and what happened to them? - Robin. -- robin smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:46:51 -0400 From: Chris Mills Subject: 2 crimso things hello toby, you do a great job with et. thanks for devoting so much time to something that so many enjoy so much. [ Thank you. -- Toby ] two things crimso. *which fripp soundscape CD has "the gates of paradise" on it? the dgm releases page doesn't list tracks, and based upon what i've read in et, this sounds like a great piece of music. *have you heard a boot called "live at sheffield '71"? if not, can you direct me to a person or infosource that might have some clues? (hot wacks doesn't have a listing for this recording.) ordinarily i stay away from ROIOs but the chat in et about islands-era live material has gotten me revved up about that under-appreciated era of crimson and i'd love to discover that this sheffield thang is worth checking out...but at $45, it's a little steep to take a flyer. thanks guy and keep up the great work. regards cm ------------------------------ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: Interesting Anecdote Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:02:00 -0400 I posted something to the Phish newsgroup about a recent show in Atlanta. In the post, I mentioned KC. I got the following response: "Its funny you mention King Crimson. I just returned from Europe and caught 10 shows. After the show in Lyon, Trey was outside talking to about 10 of us ( fans) before he boarded the bus and was lauding King Crimson as one of his biggest influences. He told everyone to buy their albums. I think he mentioned one that came out in 1972 but I don't know the name of the album. He basically said that the roots of progressive rock (he mentioned in particular Genesis) and Grunge can be traced to King Crimson's influences. By the way, I don't know much about King Crimson, if you could suggest some albums to purchase I would appreciate it." "Trey" is Trey Anastassio, Phish's leader and guitarist. On a related note, in the late 80s Phish played something called "Crimson Jam" I've never heard a tape of it, but it apparently consisted of a medley or a "jam" reminiscent of KC. ------------------------------ From: "Alias" Subject: It happens Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 20:14:22 -0500 I've looked for the 2 Bears CD's for years. Bargain bins, used CD stores, internet postings - no luck. Finally, someone offered to sell them here on ET just a couple weeks ago but wanted $80. I was willing to start bargaining but never even got a response back. I'd have paid $80. Today, I was waiting in line to buy another CD and someone walked in and sold his entire collection of CDs including both Bears CDs. I paid $8 each. Woooooo! I'd be happy to email wav files to any ETer who might want to hear samples of Belew's pre/post-Crimson/solo band. They're not for sale, though. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 10:24:42 -0700 From: Ed Sander Organization: The Lush Attic Subject: Dutch Progressive Rock Page Dear Progressive Rock fans, As some of you may have noticed, the Dutch Progressive Rock Page has been unavailable for some weeks now. Because of the summer holidays the server has been shut down :( Because the DPRP-team (Ed, Jerry, Rene, Henri, Francois, Jeroen, Neil and Martijn) feel that we can no longer gamble on the availability of the server (we may get kicked of any day after the restart) we have decided to search for a new provider. At the moment we are still looking for a good (and not too expensive) provider (as we have a load of 1.2 Gb / month we cannot go for a normal account) and the cheapest one we have found thus far is around 60 pounds a month. Since this is a hobby for all of us, and maintaining the pages and keeping you updated on all of the relevant information is done out of love for the music, we don't want to be forced to spent buckets of cash on a provider. Therefore, the best solution would be to find a provider who would be willing to sponsor us by offering us free space/data traffic. If any of you have advise for us or are able to help us, please get in contact. Hope you will bear with us, the DPRP team. ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #400 ********************************