Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #397 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 397 Sunday, 13 July 1997 Today's Topics: Rolling Stone review A Question for King Crimson and other musicians reading this LPs, son. Bruford recordings wanted The Great Deceiver Re: Elephant Talk Digest #395 "inuitive" rock" and Can Dark Star and Op Zop Too Wah An end to boring subjectitudeness! the Leaque... Philip Glass joke Pittsburgh Soundscapes Madonna and Fripp G-3, Women Fans, Rude Audiences, Nov.Suite, Dogs React Phillip Glass, L.O.G. Feel No Fret: King Crimson ACOUSTIC Fripp and Glass 80's video's wanted / VROOOM*4 / Glass 'off limits' From The Caves EASY MONEY on TGD Another incurable Crimhead and another newsletter Glass influences, shattered? Discipline release suggestion: Jamie Muir Prog Vinyl For Sale Possible Productions Order ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: Glass, Schmlass Hi, hope everyone is well and things are OK. OK, anyone posting further things about Philip Glass not only gets their post vapourised -- they'll get spammed with 2,000,000 "Make Money Fast" messages. Plus hopeful college graduates' resumes, and offers to buy ad space on Madame XXX's Hot Web Zone. In other words, :-), it's off-topic. So, by the way, are any posts that basically say "Yes albums suck" (or equivalent). Noone wants to read stuff like that. It's boring. Toby "Mr Heavy" Howard -- your almost invisible moderator. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:29:54 GMT From: crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Mike Dickson) Subject: Rolling Stone review MEHLMAN wrote... > Who the hell are Tortoise Jessamine and Pet Sounds? Can someone > please fill in the gaps? I don't know about the first two, but the latter is a reference to the Beach Boys (or, let's face it, Brian Wilson) album 'Pet Sounds' which is arguably the greatest record ever made. Mike Dickson, Black Cat Software Factory, Scotland : Fax 0131-653-6124 crimson at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk : ET Administrator : Columnated Ruins Domino ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 18:09:21 +0200 From: Christian Subject: A Question for King Crimson and other musicians reading this Step 1 (how I got here from there and preparing my question) Most of Zappa's solos fascinate me. Whether it's a synclavier solo, an orchestra one (if you know Zappa's way to improvise on orchestra, you know what I mean) or a guitar solo. Zappa's guitars! Mmmm! He was one of a kind! For nostalgia such as you have detected in my blood, there are very few solo CDs. I will refer now to the guitar solo albums, because they have made up my mind in compiling my own Zappa guitar solos CD. I gathered solos from various official or unofficial CDs and burned a fine (to my taste) CD. Step 2 My attention focused on Mr. Fripp's soundscapes. Some I like very much, but on every soundscape CD most of the titles are definitely not my cup of tea. I have also picked up soundscapes featured on other KC/Fripp CDs or performed with other musicians (sorry, I donno titles and names and that's not the point here). But on a CD one can record up to 74 minutes and I had less than that...(oops). So, because to my taste Japanese flute music is much the same (but on another instrument), I have burned a CD with soundscapes performed on guitar(s) and flute. Step 3 I now have a small collection of CDs the way I want them to be. True, some CDs are a whole and it's not worth breaking them apart. I have heard talk (or red somewhere) that Mr. Fripp's soundscape CDs are all forming a series of sounds, and they should be listened as such. They don't sound like that to me, this is why I felt like "saving" the soundscapes I liked from the rest that I don't. A while ago I started to think of making "my own music" using samples from tunes performed by various musicians and also natural sounds I can pick up my own. My work has nothing to do with music (well, maybe a little but I'm certainly no musician), all I have done till now is with ordinary equipment (an IBM-PC, soft that anyone could get, a tape recorder, a CD-ROM burner). But I do enjoy what I do with these sounds and I guess one should because it takes time and you must be motivated to go on (and find the time). The first CD is here, it's origin lies mostly in the King Crimson music and the musicians related to. I hope no one made a list of complaints to what I have written yet, because I must add the following : 1) I'm using these CDs only in a private context. Actually, only one person has listened a bit to the results (I'm talking about the last one, the others should not be interesting, because they list titles of my preference, featured on various official cds) 2) I'm not reproducing them or using them in any money-making context. 3) I have bought all the source CDs. And here is my question : what do musicians feel about this? I'm not saying that everybody (or at least enough people) is/are going to "mutilate" other people's work like this. Yet, the potential is there and though not many would do their own soundscapes with samples produced by other musicians, it's possible today to copy a CD at a relative low cost. Some weeks ago a certain company has announced that a CD copy unit will hit the market this autumn. This one is not dependent on a computer, it's just like a CD player unit. How are the musicians affected by this? I'm not only talking about money. There is now the tempting possibility of making your own mixes, your favorite best of-s. This possibility has existed already, since anyone could have been recording CDs on tapes but I guess recording at a CD quality, that's rather new and more exciting. I'm thinking of a little "incident" which has something in common with this situation. A while ago I wanted to "surprise" Mr. Peter Greenaway, whom I had the pleasure and honor to meet in a working context. I made an interactive version of one of his TV films (I won't go into details) but had no approval to do so. When I have told him about and showed the result, I was afraid he would explode because, after all, it was his film that I have changed in my way. He responded very friendly that he liked the idea and he said that he makes films for us to do something with them. I felt ashamed of suspecting Mr. Greenaway react in a cheap way. But I also suspect other artists would not like to see their work modeled by others and I guess they would be entitled to get angry. I welcome reactions on my private email, maybe ET is not a forum for such debates. Thank you. Chris stalker at bart dot nl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:59:51 From: The Analog Kid <33&1/3 at analog dot moog dot mellotron> Subject: LPs, son. About 15 ETs ago, someone wrote: >Someone said "Give me Analog or give me death" a while back. >Hm. DO any of you analog people out there realize that the King Crimson CDs >you listen to are digital? What makes you think I like CDs? If Thrak, for instance, was available on LP, that's the way I would have bought it. Come to think of it, maybe that way it wouldn't sound so Frippin' shiny! (And it would look nice next to all my other KC records.) The Analog Kid ------------------------------ From: "chris mitchell" Subject: Bruford recordings wanted Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:54:43 -0400 I am looking for the _Music for Piano and Drums_ album by Moraz/Bruford on CD. Has this been issued on disc? Also I'm wondering where to find a couple of "unofficial" recordings... Moraz/Bruford - The Story of Pb (live 1985) Earthworks - Heaven's in Here Any help on where to find these discs is appreciated. Also, I just sent in my DownBeat reader's poll ballot and voted for Trey Gunn's 3rd Star as the best "beyond" album. I still think that's one of the best Crimso-related recordings available. (Meanwhile Joe Henderson gets best jazz album of the year, IMHO) chris m. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 97 20:02:20 UT From: "William Hearne" Subject: The Great Deceiver "Walking on Hot Air" b/w "Decadence and Facade" - The Great Deceiver admits that he wrote his posting in ET #384 entirely to "stir the pot." In my personal opinion regarding The Great Insulter's comments (which is probably about as informed as some of The Great Insulter's "opinions" regarding former KC musicians's talents), The Great Deceiver realized his faux pas and is covering with a lame excuse rather than apologizing for untoward criticisms. I quite accurately dubbed the posting as a "bash" of the band, and I invite Eters to review the posting a judge for themselves. In short, former KC members did not deserve the bashing the received, even if only to "stir the pot." "Toadies of the Road" b/w "The Stalking Drone" - I am very glad that The Great Deceiver picked up on the other point I was making in my rebuttal: "I'm not a musician - I am a music consumer. I really do not care what RF does with his time." My comment was a rejection of the all too pervasive pointy-headed obsequiousness which some people believe will influence their idols. "Scarless" b/w "We'll Let You Down" - The Great Deceiver and I agree on one point. I care about the quality of what my favorite musicians issue; however, I display my concern by purchasing or not purchasing the product. I believe I am far better off separating the wheat from the chaff in that way than by blindly buying everything issued because my idol "can do no wrong," or prejudging an album because of the idol's choice of musicians and risk missing something magical. I would not mind being let down once in a while if it increased the chances of a "scarless" album which might not otherwise have happened if fans were allowed to "stir the pot." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:44:35 +1000 (EST) From: nextwave at peg dot apc dot org (Next Wave Festival) Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #395 In regards to the minimalism debate: the primary (but not the only)influence on minimalist composers is Asian and African musical structure. So...yes...Balinese music was studied and the cross patterns created by numerous down beats incorporated. It is quite clear that the tape delay experiments of Terry Riley influenced Eno...who in turn influenced Frippertronics...(leading to Soundscapes)...the cross patterns of Reich (and to a certain extent Glass) are a clear influence on one of the threads of KC composition....never forget of course that John Cale was a member of the La Monte Young (often called the father of minimalism) ensemble, as was Jon Hassel I think....the English minimalists like Byars and Nyman were the earliest signings to the Eno "Discreet" label and pre-date the current "ambient techno" stuff that Fripp sprays guitar all over....those interested in John Cales work as a minimalist composer should check the soundtrack to the recent "I shot Andy Warhol" movie....the minimalists stole the idea of a composer/performer with an ensemble from rock music...rock music stole the multiple downbeat back....Soft Machine...A Man Jumping...King Crimson....but in my humble view the unsung Queen of Minimalism is Ms Meredith Monk..vastly underated, probably a gender thing...she of course is a huge influence on Laurie Anderson.......the world is a very small place. Cheers, Zane. Next Wave Festival 31 Victoria Street Fitzroy VIC 3065 Australia Art for dreamers in a world of nightmares Ph: 61 3 9417 7544 Fax: 61 3 9417 7481 nextwave at peg dot apc dot org http://www.peg.apc.org/~nextwave/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 13:38:09 -0700 From: erik reid simpson Subject: "inuitive" rock" and Can > It's official: KC's "Epitaph" pulled down 3.5 stars (out of 5) in > >Rolling Stone #764. A couple questions: RS says KC "anticipates the > >avant-prog [sic] romp of recent underground bands like Tortoise and > >Jessamine" and is "closer to the elegiac orchestral design of Pet Sounds > >than trademark Yes or Genesis." > > Who the hell are Tortoise, Jessamine and Pet Sounds? Can someone > >please fill in the gaps? > > I don't know Tortoise and Jessamine particularly well, but I know that > Tortoise is an instrumental band from Chicago who's often lumped with the > so-called "post-rock" movement (perhaps the niche where prog and punk > finally meet?). I believe that Tortoise has three albums out, all released > on the indie Thrill Jockey label. I don't personally own anything by the > band, but I've been meaning to buy a disc or two. Meanwhile, Jessamine is > sort of a groove-rock band based in Seattle who gets compared to Stereolab > a lot. There is a feature article in the new issue of Option about the latest genre pigeonhole (where Tortoise and Jessamine get lumped), which they are attempting to peg "intuitive rock" after a quote by Karlheinz Stockhausen regarding playing music without an ego, but rather acting like a radio reciever, becoming a medium. (Sound like anyone else we know of?) I have never heard Jessamine, but have Tortoise's "Millions Now Living will Never Die" and like it a lot. All instrumental, often trance-inducing, excurions drawing from a multitude of influences and experiences, sometimes utilising signal and tape manipulation to augment the actual performances in a very post-Eno and Can sort of way. Supposedly the 2 founding members got together "inspired by a mutual passion for _My Life In The Bush Of Ghosts_". I'm not sure I hear alot of Crimson in there, (Tortoise is not nearly as hard-edged for the most part) but I see no reason why it wouldn't appeal to KC fans, who for the most part, seem to have open ears and minds. Group improvisation seems to be a key factor in what these bands do, which is not an alien concept to KC fans. Also, I have heard both bands compared to Can at different times, and there is no higher compliment possible in my book. Could it be at this late date, what with post-Can outfits like Moonshake and Laika, the Can remix project, and the more and more frequent name dropping by would-be hipsters, they are finally in the postion of getting the recognition they deserve? Just wondering. Bye; Erik Simpson eriks at on-ramp dot ior dot com ------------------------------ Subject: Dark Star and Op Zop Too Wah Date: Tue, 8 Jul 97 17:01:01 -0700 From: Lewis Southers Hello you Et'ers Are there any Grateful Dead fans out there? The Only Dead album I have is Workingmans Dead and I don't like it. I also have the Henry Kaiser Band's album "Those Who Know History are Doomed to Repeat it". On this album Henry Kaiser Does a great version of Dark Star and now I want to buy the original version. Do any of you know what album it's on? Any Help would be appreciated. As this has no Crimson content feel free to Email me privately, eh. Now onto the Crimson Content. I've noticed that there is suprisingly little conversation about Belew's album "Op Zop Too Wah", why is this? I own or have heard all of the Belew releases except for "The Guitar as Orchestra" and I think OZTW is Adrians best and most mature work to date. It took several weeks for me to take that thing out of my changer. Ok, my kid stuck the door shut with gum, but that's neither here nor there. But seriously folks...What do you all think about this album. He really outdid himself. Peace everyone. -Lewis Rush / King Crimson / Ozric Tentacles / Echolyn / Marilion / Gentle Giant / Gong / Real Floyd / Al Dimeola / Jean Luc Ponty / Brand X / Miles Davis / Sonic Youth / Husker Du / Fugazi / Buzzcocks / Descendents / Television / Lloyd Cole / Luigi Boccherini / Igor Stravinski ********************* Go Bolts!!!! ********************* Do you believe in Macintosh? Please check out: Join the EvangeList mailing list by sending an email to: . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 14:51:55 -0500 From: Stephen Drake Subject: An end to boring subjectitudeness! the Leaque... > >Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 13:11:48 -0400 (EDT) >From: JRHARTLEY1 at aol dot com >Subject: An end to a boring subject(s). > > >OK, lets talk about something different, like, ...... I know... Who saw Bob >and the league gents back in 1980 and what was it like? Ok then. I went to the LOG show at the Bayou, in Washington, D.C. on July 3rd, 1980. It was truly fabulous, even though it was mostly a straight playing of the stuff that was available on LOG recordings at that time, of which I had all that was available. The sound was great, which wasn't too amazing for a small group like that. A lot of people danced throughout, as that was one aim of that tour, to do a dance band sort of thing. I was seated at the front of the balcony, so the dancers didn't obscure my sight lines. RF had a huge array of pedals at his feet, and did quite a bit of tapping on them, but it was all pretty subtle, and mostly what came across was his disciplined picking. Barry Andrews was playing a Farfisa(?) organ with the top removed, so it looked sort of retro-techno. Sara Lee just stood still and played her bass lines stony faced. I forget about the drummer, his parts could have been replaced with a drum machine. This was just the start of a memorable trip. That night the group of us slept on the grass on the mall, and spent the next day doing various 4th of July in Washington activities. I went to the smoke-in, and got really stoned with a lot of old friends, and my girlfriend went to the Beach Boys concert at the Washington Monument (the one that was videotaped, and broadcast 100's of times) with her old boyfriend, whom she later married. At the end of the day, we all got on a bus and went home. ___________________________________________________________ Stephen Drake dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot Sduck at Bellsouth dot net Cellist, Music Copyist..................................... Homepage.........http://members.aol.com/sddrake/s-drake.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:45:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Arthur Thomas Andrews Subject: Philip Glass joke >> >>I write this objectively, because I find his music rather tedious. >You and me both. I did like the Koyaanisqatsi and Mishima soundtracks, >though. Philip Glass joke: "Knock, Knock" "Who's There?" "Knock, Knock" "Who's There?" "Knock, Knock" "Who's There?" "Knock, Knock" "Who's There?" "Knock, Knock" "Who's There?" "Knock, Knock" "Who's There?" "Philip Glass" A classic joke among musicians. Here's another. "What's the difference between Kenny G and a vacuum cleaner?" "Vibrato" I crack me up. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Arthur Andrews ata5d at virginia dot edu "My name is John Francis Pastorius III, and I'm the greatest electric bass player in the world." - Jaco Pastorius ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:28:11 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Pittsburgh Soundscapes Hi, Thanks to Joan Bull and all the ETers' that gave me perfect soundscapes information! I was there on time, not the ticket time. Many Fripp fans didn't hear a note because of this. This is the second time ET has saved me from disapointment...last years Hordes early start. Also because no one was there ,I got front and center...for $10.00 all of Fripp and two songs of Kenny Wayne! Amazing..Steve Vai's guitarist jammed on a sound scape. A very pretty beginning.A very perfect middle. A very, very, powerful ending! The 30 or so who came in were kind of in shock, and applauded enthusiasticlly,but no on core as expected. The early local guitar guys,mainly blues players, now had a new respect and asked me about my soundscape shirt and other player type questions, that I was no help with. The rest of the "show" was just that. I enjoyed it very much,considering I only heard 2 or 3 songs from the others. All were Players! Now the High light for me was the ending soundscape."I fell like were taking off!"_Tom Diamond(brother in law) And Fripps' solo on RED HOUSE, that had many saying,"thats Fripp, Thats Fripp"."All for had great solos but Fripps was the best." OH, also some kid at the vendor sold my brother in law and I , That Which Passes ,For 5$ each!!!Super, love tracks 4 and 8. Again thanks to all at ET for a lifetime event! Erie,PA ..Don't miss JIMANDY at you local club! See you in September, Joe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:54:57 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Madonna and Fripp Chris Jepson said... >The result is kind >of hard to describe; it's like you might feel about an uncle who >you hardly ever got to see when you were growing up because he >lived far away, but who you always thought was really cool. Later on in the same ET Fripp was quoted.... >Actually, what we do is inseparable from how and why we do what we do. So, >the transformation of sound is inseparable from a transformation of self, a >refining of what we are. Actually, as I was first reading Chris Jepson's post, I was afraid he was heading in a dangerous direction, particularly hero-worship, and the packaging of personality and image in the form of music. As I like to say to Madonna fans to PROVE her music sucks: Would you love Madonna's music as much if you had never seen her? (There is always a thoughtful pause, and the answer often comes up "no"!) From this I would conclude that, like Hollywood, the record industry packages its "stars" as targets of some sort of wish fulfillment. The tabloids complete this process, so that it is evident that our stars seem to be doing our living for us. How is this different from Fripp's muisic (or anyone else of substance)? Is the difference in the content of personality? "Madonna is popular because people like the personality they percieve as being behind the music. Likewise for Fripp. This also explains why Madonna is popular and Fripp is not". Somehow, though, I don't believe it boils down to this. When I talk to those that "love" the mush and "entertainment product" extruded by the record companies, I see that their experience of music is very different from my own. They don't experience the extreme rush of listening to something that totally kicks ass (which of us ETers did not listen for the solo on Eno's St Elmo's Fire?). And although i acknowledge that there is some chunk of Fripp in this playing (our shared humanity is indeed the communication language necessary for such a rush), I must insist that I am getting off of something more abstract, an emotion that can't really be put into words. So is that it? When music can be reduced to the formulae of words (be they from a cold abstract theorist like Webern or from a cigar-chomping, table-pounding record producer), the music has lost its vitality, its humanity. In other words, the moment it can be fully understood, then it is useless. So what's the difference between Madonna and Fripp? Maybe it is as simple as the follwing Fripp-like aphorism: Madonna uses music, but Music uses Fripp. Does this make any sense? I know it doesn't, but I've been trying to get a handle on this idea, so any comments are welcome. -Emory ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:45:50 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: G-3, Women Fans, Rude Audiences, Nov.Suite, Dogs React Hello, The Colorado G-3 concert at Red Rocks in July has been cancelled. The woman at RedRocks office said "Someone's going in the studio - that's all I know". However, Catalyst Mgt .(Bless their hearts) called back on July 8th to say that it has been rescheduled for October 7 at the Mamoth Events Center in Denver YIPPIEE! We, at least, get to hear Soundscapes live. Must say I was looking forward to Mr. Fripp at RedRocks, as sacred music deserves sacred space. (maybe some day - my fingers remain crossed). I'm new to these pages, but I'm a crazed, die hard, enthusiast from way back. Well, do I remember the day when the Red King caught me under his spell & melted my impressionable young teenage ears. I'm also a woman fan! I'm also in the strange position of understanding what Mr. Fripp is getting at spiritually. This all makes me weirder that the weird! But face it, we're all very strange or we wouldn't be here, would we? I've been pondering why so few women fans & I've come up with a few answers 1.) No "obvious pretty boy sex symbols" -(Sorry Trey) - just a bunch of good guys with good energy ( & I'd defy anyone who would tell me Mr. Fripp is not sexy anyway) 2.) The music is way too agressive & ballsy. Basically, regardless of gender, most people don't like music that is so demanding physically, emotionally & intellectually, Crimso Rocks Hard. Not everyone likes to be thraked so hard on the head! or terrified, shaken to the bone & lullified by imense beauty - all within one song. Some of us like lightening storms, some don't. Also Crimso demands surrender. Most women I've asked find it "hard to get into". As to why I've adored them all these years? I can only come to the conclusion that I have an extra spiritual warrior gene. As to why us CrimHeads are such a select few anyway; I have come to the conclusion that we've been programed with a specific DNA gene. Plus their music is just too damn intelligent! The best things about being a woman fan are 1) no lines at the ladies room and 2) if you're lucky enough to meet Mr. Fripp you might just get your hand kissed. As the years have passed my love for their music grows with intensity. The '95 tour left me charged for 18 months! It was like going thru a particle excellerator & coming out with a whole new sense of inner self. That charge seems to me what it's all about, really. The sorry rude audience situation reflects the sorry rude state of manners in society, period. Manners need to made a comeback. Has anyone else noticed the sheer joy in "November Suite"? Those "gates" are wonderful. My dogs hump like wild things to "Vroom Vroom". Long winded but sincere, Gail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:48:11 -0400 (EDT) From: WRNHAWK at aol dot com Subject: Phillip Glass, L.O.G. Hello ETers, A better question! Is Phillip Glass influenced by the music of Fripp? Obviously. (and Bowie & Eno too) Fripp responded thusly to a question about his interest in Glass' music "ambient; but doesn't go for enough" (paraphrased, its been many years). Having experienced both composers music live on many occasions I would say there is no contest to whos music is more ambient & interesting. (You know who wins)! Saw the League of Gents on their American tour at the Parkwest in Chgo. They were so much fun. Sara Lee stands out in memory. Fripp was almost animate & grinning one of his invisible smiles. The music was a feeling of helium; fast, fizzy, bopping indeed. The local music critic (who was pond scum) spilled his drink down my crotch. (a tactic he also used at a Crimso show.) Remember dancing all the way home. I would love it if any of you have a copy of the 1st LP to tape for me. (E-mail me to make arrangements) My stinky X-husband sold mine one day without my knowledge! The comp CD is great but not the same. I'm a female fan who turned herself onto Crimso BTW. Love & Light, Gail e mail: Gail c/o WRNHAWK aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:09:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Ruination at aol dot com Subject: Feel No Fret: King Crimson ACOUSTIC Dear RF, Toby and Fellow ETers: Before I go on holiday I would like to add my thoughts to the current debate suggesting that KC record an "unplugged" or acoustic album. For the most part, I am in favour of this idea inasmuch as I would certainly enjoy hearing acoustic versions of some of my favourite KC compositions. However, I am not sure that all the postings are "on the same page" as to what defines an "unplugged" or acoustic performance. For example, the Jimmy Page/Robert Plant "Unledded" reunion on MTV's Unplugged was not, in my opinion, "unplugged", nor was it "acoustic". (I'm not quite sure Jimmy Page knows what "acoustic" means, but that is, admittedly, a moot point). It was, 'orchestral in excess' shall we say. My point in this unfortunate digression is simply that I am not in favour of a KC album done in that manner. I believe RF and the current line-up have the ability--despite postings to the contrary--to accomplish mighty, mighty things (and here I proffer my definition of "unplugged") without the aid of electric guitar, stick, mellotron and synthesizer, etc. It need not be recorded "live". Additionally, an unplugged performance does not, in my mind, necessitate the addition of a 50-piece string section and swaying gospel singers. Given the virtuosity of the current KC line-up, I have no doubt that they can do something marvelous in truly non-electrified, double-trio fashion. In fact, I am so sure of this that the mere thought of hearing "THRAKaTTak", "Lark's Tongues in Aspic Parts I - III" or "Fracture" done in this manner makes my pulse quicken and adds something quintessent to my sad little existence. The question of course, is, will the double trio DO an "unplugged" album? The answer to this question lies partly in RF's liner notes in THRAKaTTak that "the suggestion (for an album of Crimson improvisations) [had] also been aired in Elephant Talk." This suggests that suggestions of this nature find a way, sometimes, of suggesting themselves into reality. If we make enough noise, perhaps--only perhaps--the Frippster may deign to bless us with an acoustic set from the current line-up. So, Fellow ETers let us feel no fret and give it a "good shot." In closing I would like to note that, RF has written "life is richer than listening to a record." But this, I would have to say, is one of the very few instances where His Frippness has greatly underestimated himself. For me, enjoying, uninterruptedly and at appreciable volume, a good KC record is like enjoying a good, high calorie, cholesterol-laden meal, or, sipping a fine wine--I mean to say that it is deeply satisfying. Fripp, for some of us, an acoustic effort by KC is as rich as life gets. JG Ruination at aol dot com FrippHed at aol dot com ------------------------------ From: "Art Keuling" Subject: Fripp and Glass Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:25:46 -0600 I believe any similarity between Fripp and Glass (and I feel there is some) is purely coincidental. What I have not seen in any posts since I joined in is any reference to Gurdjieff. Fripp trys hard to live in the moment. I have taken a guitar craft course and have found the exertion almost impossible. It is damn hard to shut off the distracting chatter of the mind. It is very hard. It requires DISCIPLINE. Something that is far too easy to avoid. Even now as I write this the television blares distracting me from reality. Living now and not tommorow or worried about all the wrongs in the past is really hard. Though I was a feeble student, some lessons will be with me for life. I have a Les Paul standard guitar similar to my guitar hero. However if you asked me to play a song I could not. The only song I learned was a Tom Waits song. If you asked me to play what I wanted, that I could do. I especially love to play with a 1/2 second digital delay throwing my notes back at me and allowing a tremendous tapestry of sound. At those times I live in the moment without expectation or shame of being alive. If only I like it, that is enough. We can all play music. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 05:54:57 -0400 From: Frits Jurriens Subject: 80's video's wanted / VROOOM*4 / Glass 'off limits' Hello Elephant talkers, The first part of this post is to dutch ET readers in particular: Is there anyone who has got the 2 KC video's from the 80's?, and willing to sell them to me, or provide me with a copy? Please? Dankoewel! 1. The Noise 2. Three of a perfect pair live in Japan Done with the begging... VROOOM VROOOM VROOOM VROOOM requests. (I'm shouting, sorry) actually the begging continues... I'v got this KC LP called "Unpronounceable" which has great '84? live stuff. Perfect for release on VROOOM*4. If this VROOOM*4 box does not include a 1996 version of "The sheltering sky" i will refuse to buy it!! This song is a 'MUST BE INCLUDED" (more shouting, oops) (that is to say, I'll have to wait a couple of weeks before buying it, to overcome the non-inclusion) also: Let's stop talking about P. Glass, we know by now who he is, his music, etc. an 'OFF-LIMITS TOPIC', what do you say, Toby? [ Is the Pope Catholic? -- Toby ] also2: I've got a very funny Philip Glass imitation by Frank Zappa, a short cut called something like 'spontanious minimalist composition', after hearingthat the way you'll experience any of Glass's music will never be the same... Thanks for reading all this SHOUTING, bye ! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:36:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Kurt Kleinschmidt Subject: From The Caves I just received the new disc and video from Tony Levin. I have never heard anything like what they have done on this album. Moving microphones, moving musicians, and dripping water all packaged together with an excellent production effort. I especially like the instrument choices for this album. As mentioned in a previous post, the video has some sketchy sound but makes up for it with an excellent discussion on the making of the album. Papa Bear got my order to me exceptionally quick. The packaging is excellent! You can hear, see, and feel the love and care that went into all aspects of this work. Thank you Tony! I couldn't ask for anything more... except maybe a special ETers only live performance "from the cave".... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:55:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Carl Didur Subject: EASY MONEY on TGD Now, as I sit here listening to what is possibly my favourite Crimson or otherwise song existing on the planet, Easy Money, I have to ponder anew the purchase of TGD. I like the studio version much better than the version on USA, probably because of Muir, and because of the return to the vocals at the end (the song fades out on USA). Does this fade out happen on TGD versions? Or is it simply a one-time edit? And, as a matter of opinion, what does the song sound like on these disks? Good? Better than on LTiA? This song, strangely enough is my main reason for wanting to buy TGD (oh, and the improvs). Any comments are welcomed. regarding VdGG: yes, RF plays on all of Pawn Hearts and guest on 1 track of the album preceding PH(name?) AND now (because no one else will listen to me):Why I like King Crimson... THE WONDERFUL VARIETY. from lizard to red to discipline... so much incredible, varied, amazing music! also, while I'm here, I really like Gordon Haskell's voice. Thanks to all the people reading the best newsletter on the web, ET! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 20:57:00 -0700 From: 113133 dot 410 at compuserve dot com Subject: Another incurable Crimhead and another newsletter Dear ET, Hi, I'm new to the list. Just thought I'd mention, although I believe several people, including my friends Michael Madden and Richard Scott have already so, that I run a newsletter called We'll Let You Know. The latest issue is now available for interested readers. Please email me if you wish at darrenwlyk at compuserve dot com or use "snail mail" (3 Kings Drive, Wrose, Bradford, BD2 1PX West Yorkshire) More to the point, Toby you do a great job with ET! The presentation is superb and there seems to be a lots of interesting commentary to read, all the time, so keep up the good work. [ That's kind of you Darren. Kudos for ETWeb rests squarely with Dan. -- Toby ] Best wishes Darren W ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:52:28 +0800 (HKT) Subject: Glass influences, shattered? From: John von Seggern >Concerning the debate over the Philip Glass influence on KC's 80's >guitar-weave style: I'd have thought that this style had more to do with >Balinese gamelan music than with minimalism! But, then again, what the hell >do I know? >Dave Dixon >Vancouver, BC Does anyone happen to know where this idea of gamelan influence on KC originated from? I can hear certain distant similarities, and it is certainly possible that Fripp and Co. were listening to gamelan a lot at a certain period...but the sound of 80s KC (as well as the specific compositional technique they were using) has a lot more in common with Philip Glass, or minimalism in general, IMHO. Not to criticize anybody in particular, but it seems to me that ideas like this one of KC being influenced by Balinese gamelan tend to be thrown about quite casually without people actually stopping to *listen* to the music themselves and try to hear if there is a connection. John John von Seggern bass guitar and Chapman Stick in Hong Kong johnvon at netvigator dot com home page: http://www.teleport.com/~bensonj/Authors/jvs/jvsmain.htm ------------------------------ From: "Christian & Pilla Isendahl" Subject: Discipline release suggestion: Jamie Muir Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 17:08:38 +0200 Dear ETers, Let me firstly state that TGD is the item I treasure the most in my record collection (accumulated during the last 19 years), with Starless from Providence arguably the finest moment in the history of recorded music. It is thus with great pleasure I note the rumours of the releases of USA II (whatever that may turn out to be, considering that all of the original USA LP, minus Jobson, according to Fripp, is available on FBF and TGD) and the Amsterdam Concertgebouw concert. However, the vintage live recording I would really love to come out of the Discipline catalogue is a concert with the October to December of 1972 live line-up, i.e. the line-up including Jamie Muir on percussion. Repeatedly, Fripp has praised Jamie Muir as an extraordinary musician and Bruford has said something along the lines of that Muir made him transform from an aspiring drummer to a complete musician. Additionally, the scrap-book of TYPGTKC includes press-clippings raving about the loony percussionist running around the stage, biting bloodcapsules and hitting everything in his way. Clearly, these concerts were something special. But... How did it sound? Are there tapes surviving that can reveal some of the madness of this particular live edition of King Crimson? Thus, live recordings of the 5-piece 1972 edition of King Crimson would definitely be my vote for a DGM vintage release. Are there any fellow ETers that feel the same way? Are there any that actually went to one of these concerts? Could this be something to discuss in this fora? All the best to all! Christian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 09:51:19 -0700 From: studio seventeen productions Subject: Prog Vinyl For Sale I have the following prog vinyl for sale (I've gone completely CD now, haven't listened to vinyl for five years): Except as noted, these are all JAPANESE, and generally were only played ONCE (put on tape, and I listened to the tapes). Condition is excellent/near mint except if noted. I'll accept bids until Saturday 7/19/97 at midnight. Postage/insurance to be negotiated and added to the sale price. Breathless/Camel LONDON STENEO (!) L20P1047 with: banner, and foldout Camel family tree/discography poster. Selling England By The Pound/Genesis CHARISMA RJ-7304 (CAS 1074 A) with: banner, and foldout Japanese and English lyrics The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway/Genesis CHARISMA SFX-10022 (CGS 101 A) with: banner, gatefold cover, foldout Japanese lyrics In The Court Of The Crimson King/King Crimson ATLANTIC P-10115A with: banner, gatefold cover, Japanese lyric sheet In The Wake Of Poseidon/King Crimson ATLANTIC P-10124A with: banner, gatefold cover, English lyric sheet NOTE: Spline split by careless unpacker's knife, otherwise, cover is mint Larks' Tongues In Aspic/King Crimson ATLANTIC P10136A with: banner w/Larks' Sun Logo, Japanese data sheet with photos on back NOTE: back cover very slightly worn, front cover mint And finally, not Japanese, in OK condition: The Cheerful Insanity Of Giles, Giles And Fripp DERAM SPA423 (UK) autographed by Robert Fripp cheers, dave at studio seventeen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:19:00 -0600 From: Mary Rogers Subject: Possible Productions Order Last month I placed a large order with Possible Productions, to celebrate my fortieth birthday. It finally arrived a few days ago. Apparently they were swamped with orders, which is not a bad problem to have. Right now I'm listening to Robert Fripp's _November Suite_, which is a nice anthology of ambient pieces. _Sometimes God Hides: The Young Persons Guide To Discipline_ is an excellent collection from DGM releases. The track on it that really grabbed my attention was "Mingled Roots" by Tony Levin -- techno-Asian music at its finest. The League of Gentlemen's _thrang thrang gozinbulx_, a live recording of Mr. Fripp's new wave dance band, is more energetic than the studio album. Johnny TooBad is heard on drums, before he choked up on the studio. The real treat, for me at least, was _King Crimson Live in Japan_, a VHS tape of the double-trio. The day after my order arrived I went out and bought a Hi-Fi VCR to enjoy the tape with. Despite a little shaky camera work near the beginning of the tape, the sound is very good, and priced at twenty dollars is a must for any Crimhead. Although Mr. F is sitting at the same level as the two percussionists flanking him, he appears to be higher than the rest of the group, in the center, sitting up on his stool. For a brief moment it reminded me of a puppeteer, "The yellow jester does not play But gently pulls the strings And smiles as the puppets dance In the Court of the Crimson King." Perish the thought. They are all talented musicians and make incredible music. One of the nice things about this talented sextet is that they can perform the _Thrak_ album live, including every squeak, squawk and backwards guitar part. I stand there amazed, then kneel at the shrine, Bill Jacobson "Actually the sounds one Mellotron can make are limitless, including all and any musical instruments, and natural and unnatural sounds." -- 1977 Mellotron brochure ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #397 ********************************