Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #387 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 387 Monday, 16 June 1997 Today's Topics: Jiffy Review of the Trey Gunn Band Fripp/Heldon? krimson unplugged Bungalow Bill? RE: KC v0.69 reunion Schizoid in Philly Mellotron on Dinosaur RE: Dallas/Fort Worth & Columbia, MO local ET chapters - any interest? Old sound and new sound - progress Bungalow Bill and Epitaph re: prism and elevens The outer darkness Central Park and Mellotron Samples Fripp&Byrne Toyah,SAOtW,Through the Keyhole,Horrid Audience... EARTHBOUND & Others CGT/TREY GUNN at Boston Availability of Tamm's Book On Fripp. Bashing the 1969 Band RE: Mellotron (On Dinosaur) All sorts of stuff Stick Players RE:Tone, Neurotica Drumming instruction Manhattan/Neurotica Pat Metheny and the Knitting Factory (ET#386) 80s Crim working out tunes live Jazzer's Answer to THRaKaTTaK? + MIDI Donovan's "Get Thy Bearings" g3 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:56:13 -0400 From: tim at cs dot georgetown dot edu (Tim Snyder) Subject: Jiffy Review of the Trey Gunn Band Hi ETers, Just saw the Trey Gunn Band, "warmed up" by the Cal Guit Trio (CGT). If anybody still wonders what Trey Gunn amounts to in KC, read on. People have mentioned before how awesome he is, and how much he "silently" contributes; however, even this this in mind, pre- and during-show, ...: Trey Gunn simply blew me away. I love the CGT, but after seeing them a few times, I fell the CGT is getting a bit old, and there's this subtle annoyingly smug quality about their performances and even, at times, tune selection. I expected Gunn to be not as good as them, then he came on and, WOW. Seeing him play, I instantly realized why he was a Crimso selection: He's _awesome_. I was astounded at the quality and range of sounds and especially playing on his Warr guitar. It was a great demo of the myriad of new things that can be done when the pick hand is free. Then there was his drummer. This guy is the best I've seen since Trilok Gurtu, and he is somewhat similar. He constantly had something interesting going on, all extremely musical, a total model of appropriateness. And the sounds and patterns evolved gorgeously. He used a different palette of instruments and was especially gifted in his use of the kick drum: he used it not in the usual meat 'n potatos way, but, rather, often as an effect, i.e., just another percussion instrument! I can't recommend this show enough, and, amazingly, they announced with some embarrassment that this was only their second show and that we should go see them again next time they get back. I'm fairly discerning (read: critical), and I cannot recommend the show enough. Just a quick rev! Wow! Enjoy, Tim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 17:46:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Lynch Subject: Fripp/Heldon? Interesting info- the Zeuhl mailing list has been reporting a reformation of Heldon, an according to Norman Spinrad, Fripp might play on it.. Of course, this would be great, and apparently some others share the same interest- a famous Crimson bootleg has its title ripped off from Heldon's "Un Reve Sans Consequence Speciale".. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 23:09:33 +0100 (BST) From: dinosaur Subject: krimson unplugged Hi there. I think that a krimson unplugged show would really rock. I've often thought that the test of a good band is whether they can perform without all the technical tweakings which help to distract from the actual music. Anyone out there agree with me? James. *--------------------------------------------------------* jAMES bEARD - http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ the university of kent @ canterbury It's only talk. *--------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 19:23:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Carl Didur Subject: Bungalow Bill? Kevin Brunkhorst mentioned hearing "the first few seconds of the Beatles Bungalow Bill" in the middle of the improv near the end of disk one of Epitaph. This is not all that unlikely. Someone posted a while back some interesting facts about mellotrons (much to my delight). Among these bits of trivia was the fact that the guitar before Bungalow Bill was actually a mellotron sound. "Crazy Spanish Guitar" or something... Perhaps this was the case in this improv, it seems to make sense to me. Is it just me, or is there a nearly-universal love for the mellotron in progressive circles? Overused? A pain to play? An absolute hell to tour with? So what, I still love the way a mellotron sounds...TRIO is probably one of my favourite examples...then ItWoP. *-*-* Carl *-*-* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 18:42:27 From: drj_saro Subject: RE: KC v0.69 reunion there has been much negativity sent on this topic, but the one below is just _so_ negative, that i felt i had to reply, just so the other side gets to have a bit of a voice. >Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:48:10 -0400 (EDT) >From: Ruination at aol dot com >Subject: THRaKaTTak and the Reunification of the1969 Band > > With the release of Epitaph, has KC >come full circle? Is a reincarnation of the first KC line-up inevitable? >>2)Should RF and the 1969 KC Reform? > >(My answer is more for my fellow ETers, than for RF, who, I can't imagine >is giving this any serious consideration. Barry Gordon's > comment in ET#376 that "Fripp did say that he would >play with these blokes if they would want to," can't be for real.) why _can't_ it? several witnesses reported the statement, and while it might have been made just to be provocative, there is no reason to doubt the veracity of the reports. i was excited by the news and IMO it would be a noble and worthwhile experiment >The answer: Absolutely, unequivocally, NO, for several reasons. (1) While >the 1969 KC band members (apart from RF) may have been bon vivants, good >old eggs and great party animals, they were not, are not, and never will be >virtuosi (e.g. ELP's "Love Beach," and any Foreigner album). On the other >hand, the current double trio line-up contains arguably the very best pool >of talent that RF has ever assembled to give KC a voice. Six (count 'em) >virtuosi. THRaKaTTaK PROVES that. virtuosity is not a be-all and end-all in and of itself. and whatever Thrack-attack _proves_ it does not invalidate further experiments. 'Love Beach' and Foreigner may be viewed as bad judgement by the armchair critics, but who can say what the business/financial realities behind them were. (and, yes, i don't find anything positive about these projects either, and yes again, _art_ should be more important then _commerce_, but then it's their _job_ as well and _that_ does put things into a slightly different reality, even if we would wish it otherwise.) >2)Why would anyone want to diminish the tremendous artistic achievements of >KC from Discipline through THRaKaTTak by giving into, dare I say, >sentimentalism? And let's face it, who was really blown away by those two >new Beatles' songs last year? No one. The Beatles broke up in the late 60's >and they should have stayed that way. The same is true for ELP. So take my >advice and "Let it be," Fripp. To your credit you are universes beyond what >Greg Lake, the Giles brothers and Ian MacDonald are doing today, or could >hope to do. why would a new experiment diminish anything else KC has done? why does it have to be mere 'sentimentalism'? what do those "Beatles" songs have to do with KC (in this case, not in the Big Picture)? How do you know what Lake, the Giles Brothers, and MacDonald are capable of? Have you been performing psychic voyerism on them? >Nothing, from my view, could be more dismal or pathetic than to have Pete >Sinfield try to recapture the magic by trying to grind out some sad >retro-lyrics when Adrian Belew is the best wordsmith to ever fall in KC's >lap. (Sorry Pete, it's true, stick to Celine) well, you are not necessarily alone in this opinion, but you are far from being universally accepted as _right_. (AB has written some catchy little dittys, some of which i quite like, but the only song to leave a lasting impression that i have heard from his pen is "one time".) who knows what PS might be able to produce if he is given the chance to write for art's sake, rather than just a paycheck? > Why have Giles feebly > "boom-chick" when Bill Bruford and Pat Mastelotto are better drummers with >one arm tied behind their backs than any previous KC drummers? this is just simply unwarrentedly unkind. why assume that Giles would "boom-chick"? (some people say thats what PM's entire career prior to KC consisted of. he certainly isn't "boom-chick"-ing now, is he?) Why have Ian >MacDonald wheeze into a sax in 1997 when KC moved decidedly (and correctly) >rockwards by abandoning woodwinds in the 70's? why is moving "rockwards" necessarily "the correct" thing? there is still a lot of validity in jazz sensibilities, and the tonal colors of a sax could open up some exciting new possibilities, even "rockwards". Yes, ITCOTCK was great, >wonderful, earth-shattering and all those other superlatives. But, no, a >reunification of the 1969 band would be King Crimson becoming King Lear, >senile and confused. the musicians couldn't bring back 1969, they could only play together in the present, and since none of the individuals are "senile and confused" why should a band with them in it be "senile and confused" (i _do_ like the King lear metaphor, even if i don't agree with it. a very nice turn of phrase.) >As I said before, I cannot believe, in all honesty, that RF would give any >more thought to resurrecting the 1969 band than a mild chuckle. Release >concert recordings from 1969 and the early 70's? Sure! Great Idea! But the >KC of 1969 is gone, because (and this is my point finally) KC and RF >matured artistically and moved on, and things should STAY that way. why, just because you and some other vociferous nay-sayers say so? >RF's and KC's current plane have no tangent with what the rest of the >1969 band members are doing today. It would be very bad fit. why do the two projects have to have any congruence with each other? i would imagine them to be perfectly parrallel (never touching/meeting) >Besides, I saw the >double trio KC do TFCSM in Philly last year and they probably did a better >job of it than any previous KC line-up. End of argument. i'm sorry that i only saw the first leg of the tour, before they were doing 21cSM. i would have loved the opportunity to hear it (but i wasn't about to spend my hard-earned wage on HORDE) but even if you are right, why does that invalidate the experiment of the '69 band of musicians playing together and trying to see if it works? >3)Finally, the act of music's primary function is not, to my knowledge, to >make money. But if making money is removed altogether from the argument for >reunification, recording and touring, then there is no reason left for the >1969 KC to reform. No reason at all. I will now get off my soap box. what about the fact that they might _want_ to get together to see if it works? they might actually have left some things unsaid that are still valid today. > >Thank you for allowing me to ramble, > >JG >Ruination at aol dot com > *------------------------------------- Name: Julius J. SAROKA E-mail: drj_saro Date: 6/11/97 Time: 6:42:28 PM This message was sent by Chameleon (in the Shadow of the Night) *------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:25:23 -0400 (EDT) From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com Subject: Schizoid in Philly >Besides, I saw the >double trio KC do TFCSM in Philly last year and they probably did a better >job of it than any previous KC line-up. End of argument. That was a tremendous show! (my first!) Highlights included: The Sheltering Sky (an amazing composition, I loved how Bill wandered around the stage with his mallet drum thing), Neurotica (WOW!), Dinosaur (I wish I had the money for a Roland GR-1 synth like Belew has!), One Time (cool lighting - SSEDD too), 21st Century Schizoid Man (It was pretty funny when Belew forgot the lyrics to one of the verses). I was able to get up in like the 10th row for the encores- VROOOM and 21stCSM and all I can say is they had better make another album - FAST! All in all I like the 74 21stCSM the best, but I have to hear a recording of the current version. Thanks! VROOOM pop bang snap whollop THRAK THRaKaTTaK! Colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:50:08 -0400 (EDT) From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com Subject: Mellotron on Dinosaur >I have just been informed that "Dinosaur" (on "Thrak") uses a mellotron, >but that does not seem to be the case. I think it sounds more like a >keyboard instrument of the kind that is sold in department stores. If >that is an example of a "vintage sound module", then I would have to agree >that it is no substitute for an actual mellotron. That's Belew's guitar synth, my man. Colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Jun 97 21:57:17 UT From: "Courtney Key" Subject: RE: Dallas/Fort Worth & Columbia, MO local ET chapters - any interest? Hi all! This is my first posting to ET (hold the applause). I was wondering if there were any ETers thrakking either in the Dallas/Fort Worth area (where I am a permanent resident and spend the summer) or in the Columbia, MO area (where I spend the rest of the year being a journalism student). If interested, contact me via CourntneyKey at msn dot com. Also, I'd like to say I've really enjoyed all the reviews of the Epitaph box so far - I'm supposed to be getting a copy for my birthday on the 26th, so I guess I can chime in with my 2 cents then. Courtney Key ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 13:50:26 EST From: "Mark Jordan" Subject: Old sound and new sound - progress Hi All It was interesting the sort of responses my and otheres previous posts have generated concerning technology and what is supposed to be progressive music. It was also interesting to read that Robert now uses a SansAmp as his preamp. This box is has been designed to emulate any Amp/Speaker combination and does so extremely well. It is not a digital box but made up of analogue components with digital control. It allows you to change sounds at the flick of a button. Most of you have probably heard these units a million times on the radio/CD but thought it was a wailing Marshall etc. These are used by nearly everyone. A progressing musician will utilize any technology to express himself regardless of antiquity/fads. I don't see anyone complaining about Bill Brufords use of MIDI drum triggers and sampled drum sounds. Remember the acoustic guitar itself is a technological item. How many trees do you see with naturally occuring frets, strings and tuning machines. As far as tone goes, beauty is in the eye/ear of the beholder. Drop your prejudices and open your minds. Take a listen to Bowie's new album, Reeves uses the whole studio/computer as an instrument. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 01:14:48 -0600 (CST) From: TIMOTHY GUEGUEN Subject: Bungalow Bill and Epitaph In his comments on disc one of Epitaph in #384 Kevin Brunkhorst mentions hearing the lick from the Beatles' "Bungalow Bill" on the improv track. The simple explaination for this is that this lick was actually one of the original tapes on whichever model of Mellotron the Beatles were using at the time. They liked it and built a song around it. Fripp's Mellotron must have had the same tape set. STANDARD DISCLAIMER tim gueguen ad058 at sfn dot saskatoon dot sk dot ca ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:01:59 +0200 From: Alex Brugger Organization: Physics Department, University of Erlangen, Germany Subject: re: prism and elevens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ hi Jason, in answer to your query: prism _is_ the percussion trio with Adrian (usually one of the encores) and elevens _is_ the percussion (or rather tom) piece Bill and Pat opened Thela Hun Ginjeet with, usually at the very beginning of the show. unfortunately I have no idea what the hell the drum/bass piece the video starts with is called - probably an improvisation? hope this helps, cheers, Alex ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ____________________ Alex Brugger ____________________ alex dot brugger at physik dot uni-erlangen dot de http://www.physik.uni-erlangen.de/hi/ab/ab1.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:16:14 +0100 From: Ed Mayall Subject: The outer darkness Hi, I received volume one of The Gates of Paradise, The Outer Darkness yesterday, and after listening on my discman on the way to work, feel in need of a very stiff drink. It is often absolutely bloody terrifying. The only music I know that comes close might by some of Diamanda Galas' more insane wailings or George Crumb's string quartet Black Angels. This is music to hide behind the sofa too - very definitely not for those of a nervous disposition. A large portion of TOD was heard at the playback last Saturday, where I felt sure Robert said it was from the1999 second edition. I now find this hard to believe as there is no mention of 1999 or Argentina on the miminal packaging (a simple card sleeve with track titles) and as I can't believe this represents the earliest soundscape performances. Equally, however, I find it very hard to believe that this was played in the "ambient" setting of the QEH foyer. not music to drink coffee to. I guess I'll have to wait for the rest of the set, presumably with Robert's scrupulous annotations included, to resolve this. In the meantime, order The Outer Darkness. I think it's Robert's most powerful stuff I've heard since... I can't think of anything - even Great Deciever and THRaKaTTaK didn't hit me this hard. Still shaking Ed ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:35:33 -0400 From: Don Cooper Subject: Central Park and Mellotron Samples Hi, Another ETer beat me to it, but the July '74 show was at the Wollman Rink. I worked there in the summer of '78, and just a couple of years later they moved the concert series to the Pier, and KC played there in '82. One of TL's photos of the band from the Pier appears in the booklet that comes with the "Frame By Frame" box set. When the concerts were in the park, the admission was only $2.50 for some seats and by the time they left, the most expensive seat was still only about $5.00! Moving to the Pier resulted in $15.00 ticket prices, still low by today's standards but quite a jump at the time. Needless to say, those who attended the Central Park shows have fond memories of them. On the Mellotron thread, E-MU makes a great module calles Vintage Keys, with some excellent string and flute samples that closely emulate a Mellotron. Much easier to keep in tune and working than the original. Don ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:46:50 +0200 From: Stephen dot Fruitman at idehist dot umu dot se (Stephen Fruitman) Subject: Fripp&Byrne Hello - ...coming on over for a visit from the Nerve Net list... Got a question: The cut that Fripp did with David Byrne on wonderful, hilarious vocals (Under Heavy Manners, I believe?), was released on vinyl 1980 (I believe). In what form does this appear on CD? Is it possibly available as a CD single? Any and all help appreciated. I miss that song! Thanks, and please respond off-list directly to me: stephen dot fruitman at idehist dot umu dot se Stephen Fruitman Dept of the History of Ideas Umea University S-901 87 Umea, Sweden stephen dot fruitman at idehist dot umu dot se ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:17:32 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: Toyah,SAOtW,Through the Keyhole,Horrid Audience... Dear Crims, (the offical street gang of KC denoted by thier Disipline Tattos!) I ran across this at the IEYA Toyah site and though it of interest: Toyah, Ophelia, The Cellar and their Shadows Interview by Craig Astley 26/2/97 (except from the complete interview). We haven't heard any new material from you in a while, recent albums have contained re-recorded tracks. When can we expect to hear something new from you, have you completed recording the follow up to Ophelia's Shadow? The last 'new' album was Dreamchild but I am still writing , still writing the same as I used to but I'm finding it hard to accept the new material as I find, now I am so critical. I've written 5 songs for the follow-up but I've been working for 24 months with Robert (Fripp) on getting back the rights to Prostitute and Ophelia's Shadow from Virgin, I now own them and I can re-release them. Once I've re-released them I can go ahead with the follow-up. Is the Sunday All Over the World live album still going to be released? Yes, it will be released shortly, we found the two remaining tracks from a guy who made a tape in Tennessee and Robert called me into a room and said you just have to listen to these and I have to say they made me cry. I was moved to tears by them as they were songs we performed live which weren't released and I thought they'd been lost forever. The tracks are breathtaking also as they are so difficult to perform live and that album was very special to me. The unreleased won't be studio recorded as I don't think SAOTW will continue and ever record again, but the live material justifies the album. (end snippet - entire interview @ http://www.nephthys.demon.co.uk/views.htm) Also Robert/Toyah's house was apparently featured on "Through the Keyhole" on SKY-1 and they spoke with Robert following the celebrity guessing of the house's owner. Curious did anybody catch this? On a final note I was reminded last night of the many ideas put forth when answering Robert's questions on the role of the audience. We attended a Bela Fleck/Dave Matthews show and the audience was horrid. The row of (and I know I must be getting old but..) young women behind us yelled continuously and screamed the lyrics to the songs, very badly out of tune throughout the show, while two people infront of us, obviously enebriated talked loudly and continuously throughout the performance. We left before the encore. As we go so so few shows anymore I really get angry when people ruin the experience. I try to be fairly tolerant and considerative but this was just beyond reason. I final walked to the sidelines so as to not confront the perpetrators. Sorry to vent here but I know we have discussed this in detail, with Robert giving his annecdotes of past confrountations, but I wondered how others in this situation have handled themselves, especially say at Crimson or related shows where this is probably far from the norm but happens never the less. Thanks to all for the Soundscapes reviews, I was so envious. You know, Mr Fripp we have some lovely churches in America too! - Martin PS: I'm still interested in starting a New England chapter of ETalk, respond to me at the above address if your interested. <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> Martin G. Bradburn Heartlab Inc <> <> Senior Database Engineer 101 Airport Rd <> <> mgb at heartlab dot com Westerly, RI 02891<> <> mgb at brainiac dot com(home) (401) 596-0592 <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> 'Turn a seeming disadvantage to your advantage' <> <> - Guitar Craft Aphorism <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: EARTHBOUND & Others Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:12:12 -0400 Andy Gower in #384 wonders about live releases from "the Islands-era KC," but I wonder if there will be any, considering the current fate of EARTHBOUND, the existing live album from that era. The sound isn't great - it was apparently originally recorded on audio cassettes from the board - but considering the miracles worked on the live recordings in EPITAPH, I have to think this isn't an insuperable obstacle. I heard at the time that Fripp had EARTHBOUND put out to show why the band broke up the way it did. (Rumor has it that the entire band quit en masse during the US tour, and became Snape, the backing band for Alexis Korner (whose name I just misspelled - working from memory here). One senses strife amid the fascinating improvisations recorded for EARTHBOUND.) Speaking for myself, I'd love to hear a remastered version of EARTHBOUND on CD. ("21st Century Schizoid Man" did crop up recently on the single of that name - with easily the worst sound of the crop.) Michael Heilbronner remarks on tracking problems with Vol. 1 of EPITAPH, and mentions his car player (on which it tracks well) is "Acura brand." I have a "Honda brand" player in my Accord, and I'm told it's a rebadged Alpine. I imagine Acura's is also an Alpine. (Mine is excellent as a player, but lacks display data I'd like - such as time elapsed/remaining, etc.) Mark Jordan wonders "is USA available on CD?" Not officially. But it might be worth checking out Japanese releases; Japan released the only CD version of THE YOUNG PERSON'S GUIDE - notable for the early demo of "I Talk to the Wind," "Groon," and the single-version of "Cat Food" (the A-side of "Groon"), all unavailable elsewhere on CD. And, since Mark thanked me for the mellotron background, I might mention here that according to the credits on that Ethos album, the inventor's name is correctly spelled "Chamberlin" - as I originally had it. JG's long post contains one thread of thought with which I must emphatically disagree: "While the 1969 KC band members (apart from RF) may have been bon vivants, gold old eggs and great party animals, they were not, are not, and never will be virtuosi." He cites "any Foreigner album" as proof of this absurd statement, which seems to be aimed mainly at Greg Lake and Ian MacDonald. (Later, he slags the Giles brothers, Michael in particular.) To begin with, I am a lot less concerned with whether a musician is a virtuoso on his instrument than I am with what he has to say through his music. MacDonald's contribution to the original KC is enormous - greater than Fripp's, I think. MACDONALD & GILES is an excellent album in its own right, and credited by Fripp as half of the 2nd KC album (taken with WOP as the other half). (In the notes for EPITAPH, Fripp also bestows a lot of praise on Giles for his drumming....) Further, MacDonald was all set to rejoin KC for the RED tour (having contributed to the album), when Fripp disbanded the group. (I talked with Ian shortly after Foreigner made its debut, and he told me how disappointed he'd been in not being able to rejoin KC after all. JG may be right that "a reunification of the 1969 band" would be a mistake, but not because it would be "senile and confused," which is a slander on the present lives of the original band. I notice that Eters favorite KC appears to depend on just which time period one discovered KC in. As one who made that discovery near the beginning, I'm a bit surprised at the attitudes expressed toward the 70's band(s) by those who only got into KC later. I see a steady evolution, 1969-74. The first album set everything in motion, introducing the kind of music and the varieties of music that would define KC. The 2nd and 3rd albums were Fripp synthesizing what had been a group-creation on his own, and I think on LIZARD he peaked at that. The 4th album, ISLANDS, has its own character (more subtle) and perhaps "used up" the original Crimson concept for Fripp. (He also used up the last of the early material, "Drop In" having evolved (with Sinfield's lyrics) into "The Letter.") ISLANDS is also the last appearance of any "pop songs" in the 70's KC output - the superb "Ladies of the Road." LARKS' TONGUES, STARLESS, and RED represent an evolution beyond the "Mars"-infuenced music of the original KC into abstract music. RED also shows how much better at "heavy metal" music KC could be than any heavy metal bands were. But all 70's KC music strikes me as multi-dimensional in a way the 80's KC music was not. Richer, more faceted, more emotional even at its most abstract. But maybe that's my bias. The 90's KC seems to have recaptured some of what made the 70's KC great, but I'm not sure they even understand what it is. I think a great deal of these changes reflect changes in Mr. Fripp's interests and desires. I know in 1979 he seemed to feel KC was behind him - he was moving on, in other directions. After total immersion in KC music for more than five years, I imagine he needed change. --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:44:46 -0400 (EDT) From: ADERKAZARIAN at MBLN1 dot MBLN dot LIB dot MA dot US Subject: CGT/TREY GUNN at Boston Someone asked if there were ETers present at the Boston/Paradise show June 6. Well, I was there and I, too, was very surprised at how small the attendance was. Enthusiastic, yes, but it couldn't have made Trey and the CGT think, "Can't wait to come back here." Quick review: the CGT were awesome! I am enjoying their thing more and more. Not only do they put out the goods but they appear to be having a great time while doing it. An A-minus. As for Trey, I must first point out that I have never heard either of his albums. With that in mind, let me say that I was a bit disappointed in his set. I know, I know. Infidel! I've already heard it from the Warr guitar contingent. What can I say; his tunes just didn't do it for me, nor did his playing. He just didn't rip it up enough. The other two guitarists sure did, though. As the other poster on this show commented, the guy (sorry, don't know his name) playing the Strat was really enjoyable. It was Frippy and bluesy at the same time. Oh, he also SHREDDED the guitar on the few solos he did. Very nice! BTW, 3 weeks and counting for my Epitaph 4-CD set. :-( Alan DerKazarian, Cambridge, MA ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 18:18:13 -0400 Subject: Availability of Tamm's Book On Fripp. jack>> Aloha all. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of "Robert jack>> Fripp: From King Crimson to Guitar Craft; by Eric Tamm. It is out of jack>> stock/out of print at all the places I checked. His book on Brian Eno is jack>> excellent., Thanks, Jack Jack; Have you checked your local library? You may be able to borrow it from there. The library where I work did not have it, but was able to get it for me using the Interlibrary Loan Program. Check it out!! Les "The less you know, the more you believe" Bono, Last Night On Earth. "Windows multitasking barely works without destabilizing the system" John C. Dvorak, PC Magazine Columnist. Les B. Labbauf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 13:41:47 UT From: "William Hearne" Subject: Bashing the 1969 Band Realizing that my opinion is no more valid than that of JG's posted in ET #384, and further realizing (as JG observed) that such opinions likely will be not be given any serious consideration by RF, I "vote" an energetic YES to a "reformation" of the '69 KC, or at least a "reunification" of those members in a new project. The term "reformation" usually means an amendment, change or improvement upon the original. Thus, the aim of a "reformation" of the 1969 KC would be an improvement upon the original product. How could anyone who is fan of the original KC not want to hear that? I suppose that because JG's only concern is virtuosity, and because he considers the original members incapable of virtuosity, a "reformation" would be useless. Perhaps a successful "reformation" would not occur, but a "reunion" of those particular musicians might nevertheless result in something entertaining or useful. Isn't it is up to RF and the others to decide if it would be worth the attempt? I say there is a good chance that the results would be positive from the consumer's standpoint. Whether any of the original members of KC are interested is their concern and no doubt beyond he influence of the consumer. But from this consumer's standpoint, a "reformation" would be in all probability a treat. I'm not a musician, but I can often recognize the level of a musician's "chops." Virtuosity is often rewarding for the listener, but not essential. My evidence: The Beatles, one of many examples. Enough on that silly point. Another silly thread running through JG's "THRaKaTTaK" of McDonald, Giles et al. is that a reunion effort would somehow diminish the "artistic achievements" of post-1969 KC albums. Huh? Did "Free as a Bird" diminish Sgt. Pepper's. I don't think so. JG argues that because RF has "matured artistically," getting back together with McDonald, Giles et al. would be a "bad fit." Again, huh? I can recall thinking that RF's teaming up with the other members of League of Gentlemen was a "bad fit," but does League of Gentlemen in any way affect or diminish Discipline, Beat etc.? While I personally do not care for a lot of RF's para-Crimso projects, I could care less if he indulges in them, and who knows what positive contributions they add to subsequent King Crimson music? Of course, I do not recall reading anything even remotely suggesting that RF would call such a reunion "King Crimson" (and my understanding is that something other than RF alone dictates when that name is appropriate). In any event, everyone has a favorite lineup. Some of us have several lineups we prefer over others. On the other hand, some of us do not like certain KC albums. Knowing MY least favorite KC albums is unimportant to YOU and to RF, and knowing the reasons why they are MY least favorite are even less important. By the same token, there are present and past members of KC I do not like as much as others. Do I need to attack and denigrate them? For what purpose? To try to convince RF not to work with them again? Good luck! I'm not a musician - I am a music consumer. I really do not care what RF does with his time or who he does it with, except that I consider myself fortunate when RF chooses to issue an album I like. THRaKaTTaKing former KC members is pointless, in bad taste, and not in the best interests of the KC consumer. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:44:19 -0400 From: Sam Gustas Subject: RE: Mellotron (On Dinosaur) >Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:50:31 -0700 >From: Michael Tanigawa >Subject: RE: Mellotron > > I have just been informed that "Dinosaur" (on "Thrak") uses a mellotron, > but that does not seem to be the case. From my recollection of seeing the band live and hearing them on from B'Boom and the Live in Japan 1995 recording, it should be noted what is DEFINATELY not mellotron and what could be on the original studio recording. The beginning, the middle part with Tony Levin playing bowed bass alongside the strings, and the ending are all definately Adrian Belew on guitar synth. However, there is a snippet of string attack in the middle of the song on the studio version, before the middle instrumental section of Belew & Levin. Is that mellotron? It sure sounds like it. It's very high pitched, and in concert Fripp would normally play some kind of warbling high pitched attack. So I assume this is a mellotron on Thrak, because A) Why would Fripp play sound a random sound that has no bearing to the original recording and B) Since Fripp is the Mellotron player, it would make sense for him to do that snippet. Sam Gustas sgustas at gate dot net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:18:10 GMT From: et at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk (Elephant Talk) Subject: All sorts of stuff Organization: Elephant Talk George Korein wrote... > 1. I don't agree with all of this tonal nostalgia. It is true that > Fripp no longer plays with the "Prince Rupert's Lament" tone or the > "Sartori in Tangiers" tone Oooh, I disagree with your first comparison here...the first audio 'hook' that really latched me onto Thrak at all was the brief guitar remark at the end of 'Dinosaur' which (to me) sounds precisely like the 'Prince Rupert's Lament' tone! Mike Dickson - Elephant Talk Administration (et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk) For subscription information post HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:21:36 +0000 From: moff at netmatters dot co dot uk (Ian Moffatt) Subject: Stick Players Hi to all, (Currently playing IQ, The Wake) On Sunday June 1, I had the pleasure of being at The Leadmill, (Sheffield, England) basically to see Fish. Part of the Classic Rock Society's UK Progfest, if you're not a member already, then get on to it, but the support act Guillermo Cides made me wonder. Never having seen a stick player before, and now even more so not sure of what Mr Fripp and/or Mr Gunn play, was he any good? The sound was impressive but I feel that a lot of it was down to the machine. Guillermo would stop playing and the thing went on for 3 or 4 minutes. Confused? I am! I'm not happy with that, I don't mind weird sounds that come from a guitar etc, but when the sound carries on and starts changing tune etc that makes me think your man didn't have anything to do with it. (Now playing 'In The Wake Of Poseiden' not played for ages and still great) Can we stop this abbreveating game? Save bandwidth, cut your sig! And please, can we at least spell persons and band names correctly. Getting back to the point, even if Gullermo was a reaaly crap player, and I doubt it, it was an impressive peformance. (Now playing 'Starless and Bible Black' - cracking) Anyone help out on this? Cheers Ian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 20:59:47 -0500 From: John Michael Beard Subject: RE:Tone, Neurotica At the '82 band's show in Houston Adrian also announced Neurotica as "Manhattan". This was probably the working title on tour. There were no other mystery tunes played at the show, unfortunately. As for the tone debate, I also sometimes lament the loss of the "vintage" sounds but still I love the new tones as well. The Fripp sound on LTIA2 from B'Boom certainly isn't lacking balls to my ears... alto it also wouln't surprise me to learn that this was analog[it's just chorused distortion for the most part, I think]. Many of the fluid Fripp lines now being played live by Trey sound near to the original tones, I think. "Music is the best." Frank Zappa John Michael Beard http://www.flash.net/~jbstudio ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:53:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Dave Lynch Subject: Drumming instruction > From: "d.j.mcallister" > Hi everyone, > Just a quick call for help this time. My brother came into the > room while I was watching the Live in Japan video, the other day, > and his jaw dropped. "Dave", he gasped, "who are these phenomenal > drummers?". > I told him. > "Dave", he intoned, evidently under their spell, "being a drummer > myself I would be most interested to learn if there are any > drumming publications, videos etc which I may use as a teaching aid > by either of these two gentlemen. Please, could you ask on the > 'net?". So, to keep a young man happy, does anyone know if either > Bill Bruford of Pat Mastellotto have produced any such items? I > thank you in advance. I believe Bill Bruford has a video entitled "When in doubt, roll". I'm not sure where it's available, though. I don't think Mastellotto has done anything like that. ------------------------------ Date: 15 Jun 97 14:05:23 +0100 From: "Steve Moore" Subject: Manhattan/Neurotica I can distinctly remember Criso at the Hammersmith Palais in London in '81 (Still got the blue T-Shirt). Belew definitely introduced a song (later to become Neurotica) as 'Manhattan'. Hold on, the '81 tour was the 'Beat' tour (hence the blue T-shirt), so the Beat album would have been released by this point. I think, on reflection, that the above incident could well have taken place in '80, when I saw them at Dunstable Civic Hall (Decribed by RF as a 'giant Nuttalls Minto'). Hmmmmm... confused now. Well, it *was* over 15 years ago! __Steve__ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:28:27 -0400 From: ssmith at knittingfactory dot com (Steve Smith) Subject: Pat Metheny and the Knitting Factory (ET#386) Apologies in advance for the non-KC intrusion but thought that more than a few might be interested in more information regarding the post from Neil Jones in ET #386: >From: Neil_Jones at tvo dot org >1) A Pat Metheny improv, recorded live at The Knitting Factory. It's called >"A Study In Scarlet" and reminded me very much of ThRaK aTTaK. An awesome >barrage of noise. Apparently, it's 62 (!) minutes long, the station only >played the first 8 minutes. It's from a 3-CD set called THE SIGN OF FOUR. >IMHO, Metheny's an incredible and versatileQas his new CD with bassist >Charlie Haden of ballads provesQplayer. THE SIGN OF FOUR is a triple CD set retailing for about $19.99 in the U.S. and shouldn't be priced more than the equivalent elsewhere. If you don't find it under "Metheny" look under "Bailey" (as in Derek, England's patriarch of free guitar improvisation and the chaotic balance to Fripp's rigorous order). The two guitarists were joined by percussionists Gregg Bendian and Paul Wertico (the latter the regular drummer for the Pat Metheny Group). "A Study in Scarlet" is the complete first set from the first of two nights of extreme improvisation last December. The second disc is made up of more delicate studio improvisation and the third disc is material from the first night's second set and both sets from the second night. I would stress that totally free non-idiomatic improvisation is a pretty tough kettle of fish, and not for everyone. During the performance that came to be titled "A Study in Scarlet" roughly three-quarters of the audience walked out. Drawn by Metheny's name, they were repelled by the sheer overwhelming volume, not to mention the chaos. >* Anyone know anything about The Knitting Factory? I know Steve Nieve (of >Elvis Costello fame) has played there. Anyone know of a catalogue of >recordings made there? A website, perhaps? Yeah, I know a little... :-) The Knitting Factory is a New York club that presents cutting edge jazz and rock and other forms of music. It's also a record label that has released about 100 discs in the jazz, rock and improv idioms. You can find out more about both at http://www.knittingfactory.com Steve Smith ssmith at knittingfactory dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 15:02:05 -0400 From: ai644 at detroit dot freenet dot org (Barry A. Lonik) Subject: 80s Crim working out tunes live The 80s version of Crimso most definitely played a couple songs at shows in Ann Arbor that had not yet been released, but were later on Beat. Manhattan was a WILD instrumental with Adrian blowing on a whistle and wailing on gittar that became Neurotica (and I much as I like the finished song, Manhattan was a killer). They also did Absent Lovers in a form that was pretty close to Neal & Jack & Me. I stood through two shows on the same night at the now-defunct Second Chance and despite the pain of having the tops of my femurs pressing against my ribs it was quite an incredible night. I have also seen a boot called Indisciple: Mining Rocks that has an instrumental called Turkish Tea and another that is na nameless, neither of which ended up on record. Apparently just jams! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 21:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Jazzer's Answer to THRaKaTTaK? + 1. For those of you that dig THRaKaTTaK and other unstructured avant-garde improvisations, _The Sign of 4_ may be for you. The "4" are Derek Bailey and Pat Metheny on a variety of guitar instruments, and Gregg Bendian and Paul Wertico on assorted drums and percussion. It certainly rivals KC for scary-noise content. Plus, it was a great deal: I just picked it up at Tower for $15.99--and it is a three CD set (about 180 minutes). It is good and chaotic. Caveats: it is a hard listen, made harder by the lack of bass, and the occasional over-use of cymbals. (Now I know why Fripp dislikes cymbals.) 2. To those who wrote in with Trey Gunn reviews, thanks. Does anybody know if Tony Geballe's _Native of the Rain_ is any good? How about some listener feedback? 3. To those Soundscaphiles out there: if I were to buy one Fripp Soundscapes album, which one should it be, and why? (At the moment _November Suite_ seems the most interesting to me, but I haven't heard much of anything of any of the 'scapes.) Thanks for the info. Justin Weinberg - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - Department of Philosophy "This fellow isn't insane. We Georgetown University are only doing philosophy." Washington, DC - Wittgenstein, On Certainty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 11:27:29 EST From: "Mark Jordan" Subject: MIDI G'day ETers. In the last ET digest Colin wrote >>Adrian still uses amps but his rig has >>been MIDIized. Who knows what that will do to tone. The answer is absolutely nothing. Well that's not exactly true. It should enable him to shift from one sound to another with no pops/noise etc. in his signal. For the uneducated MIDI stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface. For the guitarist (not counting guitar synths) it allows the changing of presets on effects, preamps and etc or the control of a function of those units (eg amount of ditortion, level etc.). There are a large number of MIDI control devices (usually a pedalboard arrangement) around and all have different features. If Adrian is using different amps his MIDI control board would probably enable him to switch his signal path between diffent amps etc. As far as Adrians Guitar synth goes MIDI is also used to send the note information (which note, velocity of attack, pitch bend etc) from the guitar( via some sort of pitch to midi pickup/module) to the synth modules. There are two excellent web site at www.harmony-central.com and www.midifarm.com. Both these site have excellent information on the MIDI spec for anybody that requires more info. David McAllister asked >So, to keep a young man happy, does anyone know if either Bill >Bruford of Pat Mastellotto have produced any such items? I thank you >in advance. David, there was a couple of video's I've heard about that Bill produced on drumming. You might find them on the Bill Bruford Discography site at www.tohu-bohu.com. Your brother should check out his four solo albums and the first UK album as these are all outstanding. Regards to all Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:32:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Donovan's "Get Thy Bearings" Michael Tanigawa wrote: >Another thing. Before I heard "A Man, A City" on the "Epitaph" set, I >thought the improv on "Get Thy Bearings" was an embryonic form of >"Pictures of a City". That very Crimsonesque ascending saxophone riff in "Get Thy Bearings" is present on Donovan's original version of the song (from the American _Hurdy Gurdy Man_ album). Although it may sound like something Crimso themselves devised for their arrangement, it ain't. The instrumental lineup on Donovan's recording, BTW, is double bass, sax, heavily echoed drums, and strummed acoustic guitar (mostly buried in the mix, but double-tracked at one point for a brief "solo"). The song has a "beatnik jazz" flavor that must have caught the Crims' collective ear. Meanwhile, two separate contributors in ET #385 commented on the irony of the avowedly drug-free Fripp and Lake performing a song with a chorus of "Let's all get stoned..higher and higher..." This line does NOT appear in the original song. The actual line Donovan sings there is something I've never quite been able to make out in some 28 years of listening to this album! (It sounds something like "The world knows far 'n' well," but that can't be right.) Evidently Greg Lake couldn't decipher the lyric either, and just made up his own line there. Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}---- Visit me at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html ------------------------------ From: oracular at webtv dot net (David Denis) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 17:01:20 -0400 Subject: g3 Does anyone know what time Fripp plays at The Meadows Hartford CT 6/19/97? ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #387 ********************************