Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #385 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 385 Tuesday, 10 June 1997 Today's Topics: Tabulature lyrics in KC music Re: Epitaph cover Re: Epitaph Chapman Stick replies to Warr Defense Fund drugs and epitaph Winging It ETs 381 & 382 "Manhattan" California Guitar Trio Chat Log Epitaph : Thank You Connection? Mars & Epitaph cover Long live the King (Crimson) Union Chapel concert All sorts of stuff Bruford vinyl(and one CD) available for trade Fripp's jazz counterpart(s) Folk fest/Tones Update to Crimso mystery intrumental query ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 03 Jun 97 10:24:55 EST From: "Mark Jordan" Subject: Tabulature G'day from Aus to all ETers I've just scanned in the Three of a Perfect Pair Tabulature so if anybody would like a copy of these JPEGs let me know. If anybody has or knows where I can get tab for "Neal and Jack and Me" (I've been trying to work this out for years) or for that matter any other KC tab I'd really appreciate it. Regards Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 18:35:28 -0700 From: josh Subject: lyrics in KC music not to be disagreeable, but I much prefer the modern incarnation of Crimson to any of its predecessors. I feel (and judging from some interviews I've read with RF, it seems he agrees(at least partially)) that the early Crimson material is a bit less developed. In my own view, I find Pete Sinfields lyrics to be a little over-the-top, a little pretentious. I think that Palmer-James' lyrics were a little better (though still nothing to write home about). Looking at some of Crimsons contemporaries (Leonard Cohen, Lou Reed, John Lennon...to name a few), its hard for me to endorse Crimsons lyrics of the time. I would go so far as to say that the ONE thing which Crimson was equally as guilty of as their prog-rock peers was having cheesy lyrics (sorry if I'm offending anyone). The one thing the early Crimson did (IMHO) that seperated them from their contemporaries was the emphasis on improvisation that came with the '73-'74 band. To me, this Crimson was the most fully developed of their early period. I feel in many ways that they should have just done instrumental music as their improvisations were really interesting. The wild sonic quality of their instrumentals of 73-74 is precisely what I felt was lacking in their 80s material. There was a certain sterility to those albums, a certain restraint. I always used to think that it would be great if there was some way to combine the two groups. Thats why I like this new version of Crimson a lot. It's got the fire-and-brimstone of old KC, with the tight structure and songwriting of the 80's group. Plus, Adrian Belew is a good songwriter who actually has things to say with his lyrics. Sorry that was such a long post, but I felt I had to get that off my chest with all this discussion of "Epitaph" (which I didn't really dig). ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 17:09:04 +1900 Subject: Re: Epitaph cover Dear ETers, I guess Mr. Fripp is trying to expand our horizons by putting PJ Crook's painting on Epitaph. I'm not an art connoisseur (although for 10 long years I worked at the local fine arts museum), but I think I can add a small info for those of you who are interested in this picture. As far as I know Pamela J. Crook participates in art expositions from 1978. She took part in Art Fairs in London, Strasbourg, New York & Chicago. There are 2 monographies dedicated to her works, you can find them in your libraries. Lucky London residents might have already seen her works at Cheltenham Art Gallery in Jan-Feb '96. And Paris dwellers can see her peintures recentes at Galerie Alain Blondel from 03/06/97 to 13/09/97. This exhibition includes 18 her paintings, all from 1997 and only 1 from 1993. I have a catalog of this exibition with 6 nice pictures. Wish I had more. So thank you Mr. Fripp for introducing us to the good painter. That's it. Bye, Vasily Net-Tamer V 1.09 Beta - Test Drive ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Epitaph Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 09:15:04 EDT From: John Saylor Hi >>>rjgluck at aol dot com writes: [x] > It > also suggests the continuity of Crimsons over the years--which is in the > imaginative, interactive improvisational style championed by Robert Fripp. I think you are right on it here. This is the mythical "king crimson" that sits near Robert's shoulders during his moments of inspiration- dangerous improvisation -- John Saylor MIT E40-335 617.253.0172 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 10:10:10 +0100 From: stick at earthlink dot net (Stick Enterprises, Inc.) Subject: Chapman Stick replies to Warr Defense Fund [ ET readers may recall that in ET #373, there was a pointer to the email address of the Warr Guitar Defense Fund. In the interests of fairness and balance, and after speaking to Mr Chapman, I have decided to include his pointer, below, to the Stick Enterprises Web pages which put their side of the story. Please note that I have no desire for ET for take sides in this legal matter, and subsequent posts relating to the matter will not appear in ET. -- Toby ] Our Side of the Story ===================== I'm Emmett Chapman, designer and manufacturer of Stick fretboard tapping instruments since 1974, also the creator in 1969 and original teacher of its basic playing method (both hands tapping at right angles to the strings, approaching the board from opposite sides). Yuta and I have written a "lawsuit" section at the www.stickent.com Web site, since the Warr Guitar Defense Fund letter was sent out to Stick players world-wide, then "spammed" on the Internet to music news groups on 28 April. Their WGDF letter attacks the validity of our lawsuit and makes it impossible for us to restrict ourselves to just pursuing our case in court or in settlement. They have in effect demanded that we present our case to the public on the Internet, as they themselves have done. We must now oblige them. If you'd like to hear our side of the story, please visit "Stop the Internet Smear Campaign" (which is not accessible from our commercial Web site) at this URL: http://www.stickent.com/lawsuit/ All the best, Emmett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 13:38:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Larry R. Nittler" Subject: drugs and epitaph Does anyone else find it interesting that KC (well at least Fripp and Greg Lake) smugly make a point in the epitaph liner notes that they don't use drugs, yet they sing a song with the lyrics, ``Let's all get stoned, higher and higher"? Larry *------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Larry R. Nittler Carnegie Institution of Washington Department of Terrestrial Magnetism Interstellar Dust Buster 5241 Broad Branch Road NW and Mushroom Chief Washington DC 20015 phone: 202-686-4370 (x4421) lrn at dtm dot ciw dot edu fax: 202-364-8726 *------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Winging It Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:14:04 -0400 I've been listening to live KC improvisations: from EPITAPH, from EARTHBOUND, from THRAKATTACK. And I've got questions that I hope Mr. Fripp or another KC musician will care to answer: I think it boils down to vocabulary: mine and that used musically. But I wonder what the approach, the thinking, has been to these improvisations. I can think of a number of possible approaches: l. The jazz approach - which is essentially to follow the original chord changes while playing variations on the melody, albeit in an evolved variety of styles, ranging from Dixie to Bop and on. 2. The emotional approach - in which there is less attempt to follow the original changes, and more concern for setting a mood, perhaps in order to shift that mood in a dramatic fashion at some point. 3. The "rock" approach - probably a variation, originally, on the jazz approach, but, in the hands of a variety of late-60's musicians, evolved into a more freewheeling approach, typlified by Grateful Dead, Quicksilver, et al. 4. The musical-vocabulary approach - in which there is an attempt to improvise using a specific and perhaps unusual vocabulary: a specific tone row, mode, or scale. 5. All of the above. And what I really wonder is, how much of the actual approach used was conscious and how much was intuitive. Was anything discussed, prior to improvising on a piece? Are these improvisations arrived at by chance, by group illumination, by trial and error - what? It strikes me that the line between modern rock improvisation (at least on the KC level) and jazz improvisation (particularly among European jazz musicians who record for ECM) has vanished. But how do Mr. Fripp's Soundscapes fit in? To what extent are they pre-planned? Does he go into them with any specific ideas/challenges he wishes to explore, or are they completely a spontaneous response to the place/venue and audience? To what extent are they structured, and to what extent (on a good day) is Something Higher being channeled (through that "gate")? In the late 50's the classical composer/conductor Lucas Foss started a small group of classically-trained musicians to play improvised music - perhaps the only notable use of improvisation in "classical" music in this century. They recorded one album for RCA, never released on CD. It's been years since I listened to it and I'm wondering right now how it fits in with my queries above. (Why, I might have to fire up a turntable and play some vinyl!) Food for discussion, I hope. -TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: ETs 381 & 382 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 17:31:43 -0400 Nancy Mack mentions being "among the very few women in the audience" for the Thrak tour in San Diego, which leads me to wonder: is this typical? I note only a few women posting to et, as well. Yet, at the KC concerts I've attended (I've seen all the tours in the 80's & 90's and bitterly regret missing all the 70's tours) there have been a number of women in the audience, although probably not an equal split. My wife, who does not share my total involvement in music, nonetheless likes KC and enjoyed the Thrak concert as much as I did. Go figure. Many thanks to A. Leroy for the Michael Giles interview. I'd like to see more - in English. Biffyshrew, in #382, asked about the first disc of EPITAPH. Mine too has the "puckered surface" he complains about (subtle celuite-like dimpling), but I haven't noticed any tracking problems - on my equipment. CD players vary considerably in their more subtle attributes - error-correction, tracking, etc. Mine is not obviously credited with the country of manufacture, but came from US Possible Productions. Eb seems to enjoy getting into arguments. I wonder what sort of firestorm will erupt over his characterisation of "Fripp's music" as "soooo emotionally cold." If he's including KC music (by Fripp), I don't think he can win this one - and I won't even mention EXPOSURE. I've been listening to EPITAPH for half a week now. A couple of thoughts on it: Considering the disavowal of drug use by all members of KC I, what are we to make of the lyrics (by Donovan) to "Get Thy Bearings," which exhort us to "get stoned," and "get higher and higher"? Just part of the times? And, it would seem that Holst's "Mars" was heavily influential on the KC Mk I sound: the "bolero" approach, the drumbeats, the building music, the heavy, almost bombastic mellotron - characteristics of music found on the first three albums, all in embryonic form exist in the versions of "Mars" KC performed. (There seem to be very few other outside influences so obvious in the original KC.) --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:51:49 -0400 (EDT) From: BIGJANK at aol dot com Subject: "Manhattan" Hello, About the song "Manhattan", that Ted White mentioned in ET # 383, wasn't that performed on the 1981 tour, and later recorded as "Neurotica" from the 1982 album BEAT? I have a tape of an '81 show where Belew says "Oh Manhattan" before going into this song. Its from The SAVOY in NYC, so I was never sure if that was the songs title, or if he was refering to there location? Gene Jankowski ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:44:42 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: California Guitar Trio Chat Log Below is the transcript of the CGT IRC Chat. I've sent a copy to Dan for the ET website. I hope this isn't too long to run in the ET newsletter. Gary Session Start: Wednesday May 28 1997 Well, folks, seems we have quite an intimate crowd tonight. Probably won't need to moderate. I've got the trio on line through AOL. Welcome to another Artist Shop IRC Chat. Tonight's guests are the California Guitar Trio who are about to embark on a short east coast tour with Trey Gunn. The three members are Bert Lams, Paul Richards and Hideyo Moriya. Hello to all Konichi wa Allright? Hello, Hidi, Bert, Paul how are you? Hi guys okay. Tell us about the new album guys. How does it differ from your three previous discs? No, we won't tell you anything about it. We are still in the process of working on it, so we don't really know what it is going to be like yet. We have been working with Trey Gunn and Bill Janssen on a few tunes. what kind of reverb do you use live? we are using a Eventide H3000. It works great! Describe the benefits, as well as the problems of working solely within Fripp's "new standard tuning." The tuning expands the range of the guitar, so we can play things that normally aren't played on the guitar. The guitar becomes more orchestral. It gives us a different color of sound. We don't know of any disadvantages. There *must* be disadvantages guys. No system is perfect. The low C string is a bit too floppy and buzzy. It is harder on the left hand (stretchy). Do the constant references to being "Fripp's proteges" ever get in the way of establishing the CGT as a distinct entity in the public's eye? Up to this point it has mainly helped us. We often play for people who don't know who Robert Fripp is. Do you guys alternate pick everything, or do use any sweep picking? I never use sweep picking, but I dont always use alternate picking. Mainly I use alternate picking, sometimes accent picking, and a little sweep here and there. How are you folks enjoying the new guitars? Was it difficult adapting to the fanned fretboards? It felt a little bit as if I had a drink too much play these new guitars the first time, by now I am used to it. The fanned fret system is very good for me. the Sound is superb!! I would assume it helps with the low C problem, eh? Have you try alternative tuning variations of New Standard Tuning? on Melrose Ave, I tune my C to a C sharp for the first half of the tune. On the Toccatta I tune C down to A. E goes down to D. You guys were hyperactive participants on Elephant Talk, yet we haven't seen you there in many, many months. Why? I was giving some road reports during the first few crimson tours, but then things got pretty crazy towards the end... I have some good stories that I should sent to ET about the last crimson tour. Good story about our show in Poland and about our train trip from Budapest to Italy. Hideyo did not have a visa to get into Poland so he had to go the the Berlin Embassy the morning of the gig and drive all the way to Warsaw in time for the show, 10 hours drive. He showed up 15 min. before show time. Robert gave him a coffee and we went on stage How did you get to open for John Mclaughlin? We got the gig with John M. through a promoter in Quebec city Canada. I once read a description of your music that went this way "technically brilliant, yet seemingly soulless with an emphasis on robotic rhythms." How do you respond to charges like that which contend the CGT emphasizes virtuoso leanings over passion and heart? I didn't see that one. We always try to focus on the music and play the things that excite us the most and hope that it also has some emotion for the audience. Paul, that wasn't in a review, but something someone wrote on the Internet. At the GlobMob show in Seattle, you mentioned collaboration with a composer. Could you tell us a bit about that? Yes, Stan Funicelli has written a tune for us and arranged several of the classical tunes as well Stan is a friend of ours in Salt Lake City. How does A&R direction work with DGM? Are you guys able to do whatever you want? Or does Fripp direct the process? Do what we feel is the right thing for us. Robert often gives us suggestions, but in the end it is completely up to us. any new audio toys you are excited about? I tend to use less and less, because these guitars sound so good. Hidi has a new Roland VS 880. How has playing to audiences worldwide over the last 2-3 years affected the way you write and approach music? It has put a bit more pressure on us to come up with good stuff. having an attentive audience can change the whole picture. What can we expect on this upcoming tour. Will your set and Trey Gunn's be entirely separate? Or will you and his band play together at any point. In general we will be performing as two separate act, but we may play something together... We'll find out next week!... If Mr. Bigwig Record Label A&R Shark said "I wanna sign the CGT to Monolithic Records and give you a huge advance, just make sure you record a christmas album, at least one vocal tune on each album and the odd pop cover" would you consider it? Well, we just had an offer kinda like that (without the xmas tune). We declined, because we would lose our copyrights forever. this is a much longer story, one that is worth telling. Some details are in the last DGM news letter. Can we read it anywhere else? I have no idea how to get the DGM newsletter. And as far as I know, it's only available to people in Europe. You can get the newsletter from DGM america. The DGM order line is 213-937-3194 any advice for an independent artist presenting new music, going on tour, releasing a cd? as independent artists, selling our CDs at the shows has been the way to survive. Follow your own heart, don't go to much on what other people say. We try to only play the things that we feel good about, what ever it may be... Don't fall in love too much with your own music. If other people like it then it has something a good piece of music has a life of it's own On a totally selfish note, I'm about to move to the Bay Area. Will I be able to catch the CGT on a regular basis? The CGT plays on the West coast regularly. We plan on touring there as soon as our new album comes out. It is one of our favorite places to play, second to Texas. How did the upcoming mini-tour come about? And is there a chance for an expanded tour later on? yeah, like a Discipline-a-palooza? Or Disciplooza? Craftypalooza starring Bobby and His Fripptones Globmobalooza happened already in March ah, now we need one in the South! There will be another Glob mob show in Seattle in Sept. or Oct. and also one in England. What does the CGT like to listen to at the moment? We have only been listening to our own stuff lately. It is nice to take a break sometimes. Just go out and listen to accidental sounds. We have been rehearsing from morning to night. On our website is a list of things that we like to listen to besides CGT stuff. Will you folks be doing any NST weekends? Yes, there will be another in Seattle later this fall and possibly one in England. any suprises planned for the tour? Yes, plenty, many that will suprise us, too!!! Any interest in doing anything with electric guitars, or are you content with working strictly acoustic guitars? We each play electric guitar, but I haven't touched mine for a long time. Since my electric guitar got stolen, I only play my acoustic and classical. What non-CGT activities have the three of you been up to lately? I have been gardening alot lately I have been teaching guitar in Japan and plan to have a concert with the students next dec. I got married Well, we've been at this for over an hour. Time to wrap things up. I want to thank the CGT for making themselves available for this chat. Thanks guys. Thanks guys. See you in a few days! we're not worthy! Thanks to you too Gary We hope to see you all in the near future, if not on this tour, perhaps on the next. bye. Tony Levin has just joined us on AOL and says Hello to all. Thank you for your support It allows us to keep going. Sayonara Thank you all for coming. remember to check out http://www.artist-shop.com folks. And while you're at it, stop by Innerviews at http://www.innerviews.org (did I get that right?) for some cool interviews and record reviews. and http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Lofts/8082/ my site! http://prog.ari.net/prog/ and if they're not going to mention it, I will: http://www.cgtrio.com/ for the California Guitar Trio. Yes, definitely check out the CGT website that adam just listed. ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 01:20:24 -0700 From: Neil Forker Organization: YL Productions Subject: Epitaph : Thank You I would like to thank everyone who responded to my despirate plea for help in finding 'Epitaph.' I have since found the 2 disc version at a local Sam Goody store and ordered the 4 disc version from DGMUSA. The only unfortunate thing is now I have an extra 2 disc version... :) Oh well... Neil ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:36:39 +1900 Subject: Connection? Mars & Epitaph cover Krimson played Mars composed by Holst -> Gustav Holst was born at Cheltenham in 1874 -> PJ Crook pictures were exhibited at Cheltenham -> Her picture appeared on Epitaph set which includes Mars by Holst. Funny? Bye, Vasily Net-Tamer V 1.09 Beta - Test Drive ------------------------------ From: Ianglasnostrd at webtv dot net (Ian Scheff) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 02:56:37 -0400 Subject: Long live the King (Crimson) Just wanted to offer an opinion or two on one of the truly original, compelling progress- ive bands of all time. I was deeply honored (and nervous) to interview Bill Bruford before KC's 11/17/95 Springfield Mass. show, which was the fifth time I had seen Crim. The interview was about 15 min. but Bruford is such a huge influence in my musical tastes, I may have tried to scrunch too much into it talking about anything other than Crimson. I felt obligated to let him know that at least our idea of a "Hall of Fame" honor at WCUW FM in Worcester is not a matter of sellouts or platinum albums, but strictly music that you want to hear over and over, because it's good music. Really good. However, to all would-be and potential future Crimson concertgoers, be forewarned. I learned the hard way,at my 1st Crimson show, not all people are meant for their shows. I went with a girl who no doubt was in agony trying to endure live Lark's #1, which could wake dead babies. She dragged me out before the show was over- wouldn't even let me see the Schitzoid encore. I never spoke to that girl again. That was Boston 73. She hated every second of it- and made me miss the 1st half hour. I got to see the Cape Cod 74 show- saw that whole show but never once saw Fripp! He was hiding behind a curtain. Many bands have tried to make depresso-rock a style, only a few succeeded, and nobody but King Crimson could make beauty out of horror stories. I often wondered what horrifying experiences could make some- one play like Fripp, especially the 69-74 era. Adrian Belew seems to be an answered prayer to all those Crimson fans who wonder if they can be great without being depressing. Thrak, much like the 73 Larks/SABB tour, is one of the more abrasive albums out there. I hear alot of criticism about Belew's vocals, but I think he's the best lead vocalist KC has had since Greg Lake, who I never saw with Crimson. The Fripp Bruford connection is magic. I think the triple trio idea is overkill, but Trey and Pat are good players. I had a chance to chat some with Pat after the Springfield show. He sounded very into it and seems like a good guy. In the 70's when I wanted to hear real "up" music, it would be Mahavishnu Orchestra. If I wanted space, Pink Floyd. But if I felt like killing myself, I'd play Crimson. Especially Red or SABB. Played to the wrong person, King Crimson music of this era can cause insane behaviour, sleep deprivation, nightmares and siezures so no wonder I guess that I never heard them on the Grammy awards, but this band has ALWAYS related to intense feelings of some kind and expressed them in a way that reaches out of the CD player and speakers and grabs you by the throat. How hard is it to appeal to people this way? Since Red, the premiere depresso-rock album in terms of numbers who relate to it is probably "Nevermind" by Nirvana. After alot of depressing, but exquisite albums the Belew era has shown Crimson has other avenues of talents. The Boston 84 show was inspired. They must have a warm spot for Boston. I just wish they would release one of the 69 Tea Party shows- like the first show they ever did in the USA. I know for a fact, from seeing 3 Boston shows, Boston has a very warm spot for King Crimson. I was stunned to find the Springfield show half empty, and at the nice Paramount Theatre! King Crimson is not just a depresso-rock band any more. Someone said an original band reunion would be a terrible idea. Got any better ones? I don't think it should continue permanently as the old lineup, and Greg Lake won't sound as good as before, but although he hasn't done much of it in Crimson, Bruford has had alot of jazz experience and I would be delighted to see him play some of the 69-72 material (besides Schitzoid) either with the current band and maybe Mel Collins, or an old reunion version. I wonder if Crimson has considered returning Sheltering Sky to the live set, maybe even doing One Time> Sky. I wish they would do Lark's 3, or 1, instead of 2 every time. 2 is the least interesting, maybe even Crimson's Aqualung or Stairway to Heaven. Does Crimson need a hit to get more airplay? No. King Crimson needs more airplay. If they try to make hits they may not get it. Such is the infuriating reality of being progressive die-hards who never get anywhere near the credit they deserve.I'll play "One Time" and "People" on the radio, but when I get asked to play Crimson, it's usually to hear the jams and extended songs. I think the pop element is the strength in Thrak- Belew is very good on One Time, People (and Sleepless,) which all have hit potential. Too bad I seem to be the only one who thinks so. One Time could even fit into a softrock station playlist, if one can be found without a soft headed idiot program director. I am not particularly fond of the cheesy Crimson versions of Heartbeat. I liked it alot better when Belew did it on his Big Daddy tour- much more jammed out. Just my personal tastes perhaps, but in most cases where Crimson is concerned, the longer and more jammy a song is, the better it is.To quote Patriots coach (in 94)Bill Parcells regarding why he made Drew Bledsoe throw 40+ passes in several games when nobody could run the football: "If you have a gun, shoot it." King Crimson has Trey, yes, but the gun that shot King Crimson into the WCUW Hall of Fame Diehard honors is musicianship and it is very hard, maybe impossible to justify KC ever giving that up in favor of anything else. Crimheads are welcome to correspond, but if alot of you do it may take awhile to respond to all. May the sky be starless AND bible black again- Soon. Ian ------------------------------ From: "Christian & Pilla Isendahl" Subject: Union Chapel concert Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:10:15 +0200 Dear ETers, I went to the 8 hours Soundscape performance at the Union Chapel, London, this last Saturday and would like too share a few impressions from it. Firstly, I might as well state right from the beginning, it was an extraordinary event to participate in as a listener. Anyone familiar with Soundscapes will probably agree that it is not the most easily accessible form of music. However, seriously subjecting oneself to the sounds, does indeed prove to be an experience of a wonderful consumption of a massive dynamic structure of sonic codes. Thinking about it, that is really all I would like to comment on the music as such. I do not believe in writing on any serious listeners nose about the quality of the performer, the performance and the performed any further. However, let me say this: I knew about the concert from the back of the DGM order form and really wished from the beginning that I would be able to attend. My wife then suggested that I should go (as a long overdue birthday present) and on the same time visit an English friend (I live in Sweden). I am very happy that I did. The venue is a beautiful early 19th century church in Islington that apparently functions as a concert hall every now and then. The recently issued Guy Evans & Peter Hammill collaboration, which I highly recommend, was recorded there as well. Shortly before the opening of the gate at 12 AM, I counted the waiting masses to a bit less than 50. During any time of the performance, I would say there were never more than 150 in the audience. Admission was free, although a donation to the National Autistic Society was anticipated. 5 =A3 was suggested as reasonable. Inside, the performer was seated on a small stage with his guitar and equipment. At about 12.10 the initial tones were hit. The performer would strike the strings and manipulate the sounds actively for about 20-30 minutes, whereafter he would stroll in the hall or in the building, or sitting down, having a cup of tea, sometimes offering the audience cakes and fruits, but never, I would think, take a pause from the performance of the music. This would go on for about 5-10 minutes. At three occasions, the performance was interrupted by people in the audience photographing, using a flash. This would cause the performer to make a gesture, spreading out his arms, as to say to the photographer "What did you do that for? Can't you see I am performing? Now you have added an undesirale event to the process!" he would then go off stage, apparantly indignant. When the performance was over, a funny thing happened to me: I could not bring my self to applaud, it felt like that would violate the silence of the non-music as an integral part of the performance. The performer left shortly after. All the best to all, Christian Isendahl email: pilla dot christian dot isendahl at swipnet dot se ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:00:00 -0700 (PDT) From: George Korein Subject: All sorts of stuff 1. I don't agree with all of this tonal nostalgia. It is true that Fripp no longer plays with the "Prince Rupert's Lament" tone or the "Sartori in Tangiers" tone, which are both really cool tones, but I think his current tone is equally nifty. 2. On a similar sentiment, I think the recent Frippertronics are just as good as the old Frippertronics. The old ones sound like a looped guitar with some effects. That sound has its virtue. But the recent Frippertronics, which sound nothing like a guitar, are good too. I would not say they are "sterile". I think some of them, particularly "Bringing Down the Light" on "The First Day", are very beautiful. I must give Kudos to Fripp for being able to create beautiful music by improvisation. 3. I noticed a voice on the song "20th Century Dreaming" saying, with an English accent, "...trying to live with dignity in a strange land...". Cool lyric. 4. Sylvian is American, right? 5. I think it would be cool for the double trio to do "Larks 3". It is a pretty cool song, even though parts of it have a disco beat. 6. "Discotronics", if it came out, probably would have sucked. 7. Take note, prog-punk people: the key factor in how good music is is simply how good it sounds. This is completely subjective. The key factor is not originality. Either Belew or Levin, I think it was Belew, pointed out that if Crimson played completely original music, it would sound nasty. There are hundreds of songs that use the twelve bar blues, but I would say some of them are very good. The little differences set each one apart. Being derivative and not admitting it is a whole different issue: that is plagiarism and very wrong. The key factor is not technical complexity. A song can be incredibly complex and sound like crap. There are also very simple songs that sound quite good. I like the song "Biko" by Peter Gabriel, and on that, the guitar just keeps repeating a handful of whole notes. The key factor is not how popular a song is. A million Elvis fans can all be wrong (actually, they are all right: everyone is right when it comes to taste. What I mean is that by selling a million copies, an album does not become objectively good.) The key factor is not whether the band is "selling out" or not. This is something punk fans get overconcerned about. Everyone is right when it comes to musical taste. If, in this posting, I have called someone wrong, I am just speaking from my vantage point. I am NOT saying "YOU ARE WRONG! I AM RIGHT!" I am simply saying that I disagree. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:10:53 -0400 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Bruford vinyl(and one CD) available for trade Hi to all ETers 1. I have unused vinyl copies of the four Bruford albums(Feels Good to Me, One of a Kind, The Bruford Tapes, Gradually Going Tornado)and an extra CD copy of the first Earthworks album avaialble for trade(for something in a primarily Crimsonesque vein). E-mail me privately with offers. 2. Let's all agree that Robert Fripp is the Robert Fripp of rock. 3. I'm going to begin circulating a rumour that I'm dead. That's all for now. CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. -- J.G. Bennett Catch "Forever Knight" on the Sci-Fi Channel every Mon-Thurs at 9PM and 1AM EDT. -- Lucien LaCroix ------------------------------ From: "Chris Mitchell" Subject: Fripp's jazz counterpart(s) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:59:26 -0400 Greetings all. As a jazz fan, I have been interested in this Fripp/Miles thread, especially in R. Cudley's comments. Sure, Miles and Fripp both have a history of putting good bands together and pioneering new directions. But a big difference between the two is that Fripp is much more disciplined in the area of technique. I mean, Miles was no Clifford Brown or Freddie Hubbard when it came to the trumpet; in this sense I would liken Fripp to Coltrane, who was famous for his endless practicing. (Of course, what Miles lacked in technique, he more than made up for in individuality, which makes albums like Kind of Blue or Porgy & Bess so memorable.) Ultimately, it's a testament to Fripp's uniqueness that we can't quite pin him down to being the Trane or Dolphy or whomever of progressive guitar. But in a broader sense, I've always noticed some striking similarities between RF and pianist Keith Jarrett. I declined sending this as a post about a year ago, but now it seems appropriate: - Fripp and Jarrett are both extremely proficient on their instruments, and both have stressed in liner notes and interviews how the musician's role is to let the music come through them. The discipline is not an end in itself, but a means toward being a better receiver of music. - Both have studied Gurdjieff and related writings. (Jarrett even recorded an album of Gurdjieff's music; also, another album of his entitled "Fort Yawuh" is an anagram of "fourth way".) - Both founded schools in the mid-80s to teach the craft of music. However, Jarrett's seminars soon ended due to outside circumstances. - Both disdain the use of drugs. (bravo) - Both are known for their solo performances. Fripp has Soundscapes; Jarrett is well known for his improvised piano concerts. These performances are unique to time, place, and audience. - Both, and perhaps this is related to the last one, view live performance as where the music really takes off. (This is not as trite as it sounds.) - Both have minor reputations for being, er, idiosyncratic? ET has discussed Fripp's "tude" enough, and any Jarrett fan knows of his occasional outbursts at the audience (although those are in the past) and his erratic un-approachability. I don't wish to endorse these views of the artists - I haven't met either man personally, and I wouldn't want to tell them how to behave - but these perceptions of RF and KJ being "difficult" or "eccentric" are definitely out there. - Both disdain the commercialization of music, Jarrett especially so. - Finally, and this one is subjective, both have made some of the most challenging, intriguing, soothing, disturbing, and ultimately rewarding music to come out of this century. This is not to say that their respective ventures sound anything alike, but in a sense, it sounds very much alike - the language of pure, unadulterated music, even if one is cranking out "THRAK" while the other extends a Gershwin standard. Anyway, these are just some thing I've noticed from hearing their music and reading their words. a good summer to all, chris m. PS; love those mellotron bits in "Travel Bleary Capricorn" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:53:07 -0400 (EDT) From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com Subject: Folk fest/Tones Hey everybody, Just some stuff: I was at a folk festival two weeks ago and saw a band called "Broadside Electric" who played keltic folk music. Now I'm not a huge fan but I became interested when I saw what instruments they used: Chapman Stick Electric 5-string violin (range of violin+viola) Acoustic guitar They all sang and weren't bad at it either. The stick added such an amazing low and high end to their sound. I talked to the stick player afterwards and he was a great guy. He showed me the stick and everything (a neat experience seeing as I've only seen one in real life at a Crimson show sitting 500 feet away from Mr. Levin). We talked about KC and about other music. Even if the music is the same style as Crimson, they're the best folk band I've ever seen. I recommend picking up one of their albums. I think they have three. Later the next day, what woke me from my 3 hours of sleep but "THRAK" playing on the boom box of the family camped next to us. An interesting folk festival indeed. I can agree with this guitar tone issue - to a certain extent - I am a little disappointed with the sound quality on THRAK, especially the drums. The drumming sounds kind of like a bunch of wood blocks. As for the bass and stick- it took me about 300,000 times to find where Mr. Gunn was. Levin sounds good in general. And the guitars... The tones on THRAK are cool but they do lack warmth and low end BUT if anyone has heard B'Boom or THRaKaTTaK or Live in Japan II video, the sound is FANTASTIC. I can't get enough of it. The drums sound tremendous, with clarity and feeling on the video. Fripp's guitar tone on THRaKaTTaK is so frightening, I'm scared to put the album on at night (playing Marathon/Doom II/Quake with THRaKaTTaK on is THE BEST!) Adrian's tone on Walking on air and the intro to Dinosaur on Live in Japan are the best I've ever heard them. The digital/analogue issue is very subjective. Analogue can sound really cool, but it degrades over time. The good thing about digital is that when there's silence- there's silence and when there's not- there's not. I think a lot of the change is Fripp's sound lately is not the change to digital, but the fact he doesn't even use an amp. He goes through his monsrosity of effects and then straight to the sound board, as do Mr. Gunn and Mr. Levin. Adrian still uses amps but his rig has been MIDIized. Who knows what that will do to tone. Over all, though, I enjoy the new Crimson because of the cross between Discipline sounding stuff and Red sounding stuff. THRAK has the double time signatures but with a Red sound. So there -Colin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:08:50 -0400 From: bcormier at global2000 dot net (Bill Cormier/Carol Henry) Subject: Update to Crimso mystery intrumental query Hello fellow E.T.ers, I just wanted to give you all an update on my inquery for imformation on the circa late `81 early `82 untitled,rarely played Krimson Instrumental and some of the responses I have recieved.Original posting from E.T. 376 follows; >>Dear Robert and fellow E.T.ers, Perhaps one or many of you can help me. In The E.T. 363, Questions for Tony Levin issue, I posed the following Question to him: Question 2). During the 1982 Crimson tour the band played an unamed instrumental to open some shows , two I know of were The LANDMARK Theatre in Syracuse, N.Y., and at Stoneybrook College ,N.Y.. It began with wonderful mid-tempo swirling guitars from Robert and Adrian and you playing a beautiful melody line over them. This continued for a time until the band came to a full stop, suddenly Robert tore into a rapid ,staccato assault with the band quickly joining him. This part of the piece reminded me of a wild ride on an out of control rollercoaster, until it came to a manic ending among jubulant cheers from the audience. I assumed this tune would end up on the follow-up to BEAT, but was surprised to find it missing from THREE OF A PERFECT PAIR. My question is what was this great tune? did it have a name? what became of it? . Are there any other Crimson songs written during your tenure in the band that were performed live but never recorded/released ? ( good candidates for a Crimson rarities collection maybe!) His Reply being; "This question stumps me. Maybe we made the peice up as we went? There have been many ideas and pieces dropped along the Crimson path to finished recordings. Some of them very good." I was surprised to hear this from Tony since I have heard two recordings of this piece from seperate shows,in both cases the arrangement is identical, so it is doubtful it was free improv. Judging from what I have gleened from the dates this piece was played on:2-25-82, landmark Theater,Syracuse,NY & 2-28-82,Stoneybrook L.I., it appears that this tune may have only been performed on this very brief eleven day tour,and was forgotten by the time the band hit the road again the following July,since it never pops up again( as far as I know.) Does anyone in the E.T. Family know what this great tune was and what became of it? Thanks for putting up with my incredible geekiness on this, but hey,thats part of what E.T. is all about!<< Al Katkowsky was kind enough to reply with this: >Bill, > This tune that you wrote in about (ET 376) seems to be a big mystery, >even to those that you and I would think could come across with some answers. > > I ran into Tony Levin at a jazz club in Manhatten where his brother Pete >was playing piano in 1984, shortly after ".....Perfect Pair" was released. I >asked him about it, and he said something along the lines of," I guess we >just dropped one." > > On my first Guitat Craft course with Robert Fripp, I asked him about it >as well (this was in 1985). He used similar words. It seemed to be a very >casual thing to them: they just "dropped one" from the set, and that was it. > > On one hand, my experience in Guitar Craft and elsewhere helps me to >understand the position. If you're fortunate enough to have a healthy >stockpile of great ideas available to you, you may not have time to put all >of them to practical use. There are also personality/political issues when >dealing with others and their preferences. > > On the other hand, and I think you're there with me, I'm saying to >myself as I'm listening to both of these guys, "DROPPED?!!! COME ON!!!! THAT >PIECE IS GREAT!!!!" > > If your source for the 2/82 Stony Brook show is the Mining Rocks >bootleg, you are also familiar with the instrumental of "The Howler", later >lyrcized and presented on "Beat". > > . They played it as early as >the previous November, if not even earlier than that. > > What a great piece!!!! And Matt Lehmen was generous in providing this imformation; >>Bill, >Saw your post in ET 376. Can't say what it was you're referring to as >performed on >2-25 & 2-28-82, but I have a tape somehwere that I haven't listened to for >years (so-so sound quality) that has an unreleased track on it. I'll dig >around for it. At least we'll know if there were other unrealesed tunes >performed around that same time frame.Sounds like it probably is the same >tune. >Very cool, very '80's Crimsonesque >stuff. It sounds at first like it might be the intro to "Three of a Perfect >Pair" but then goes off somewhere else and is very "Beat" sounding. Cool >stuff. My tape also has the vocal-less "Howler." Thanks for jogging my >memory on this one. >Rgds, Matt > So it seems others have been wondering about this great lost Krimson piece as well.Even though I recieved no definite answers yet, this will at least give those "curious cats" like myself a mystery to solve in the Crimso puzzle.Thanks again to Al and Matt.Any more info on this would be very much appreciated! Cheers, Bill Cormier P.S Any votes for a" Best of The Savoy `81"disc? ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #385 ********************************