Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #384 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 384 Tuesday, 10 June 1997 Today's Topics: Trey Gunn in Philly Re: tone and digital Savoy 81 Suggestions for future releases KC sheet music? Prism and Elevens jazz analogues to Fripp F sharp Re: Central Park 7-1-74 F flat/E Re: Tracking Problem with Epitaph Re: Elephant Talk Digest #383 Tour Dates, Crimsound For Sale KC cd singles Groon & Tony Williams Lifetime Eptiaph - My First Listen Mellotrons technology and KC versions THRaKaTTak and the Reunification of the1969 Band epitaph Epitaph Listening Party Reviews and Photos at ET Web Eric Tamm book Re:More info on R.W.Palmer-James Braising Steak Epitaph Fripp's upcoming G3 appearance... Till September Chesterfield bootleg RE: Mellotron various A Couple Quick Ones Mile, Fripp, and Trane Epitaph David Torn's Cloud About Mercury Re: Why not document the music on paper? ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: "Ben and Donna Raskin" Subject: Trey Gunn in Philly Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:38:45 -0500 I was all depressed about having to spend a week in Atlantic City on business when I found that Trey Gunn and The California Guitar Trio were playing in Philadelphia that week. Now I have a reason to look forward to next week! I've only been to Philly once and am not very familiar with it and have never been to Atlantic City before. If any of you out there are locals and have any advice on the best way to get to Philly from A.City and back that evening, please let me know! I all ready reserved my tickets and the nice folks at Tin Angel were very helpful. It sounds like a great place for the show. Any help would be appreciated- See you there! Thanx, Ben Raskin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 18:04:23 -0700 (PDT) From: J Young Subject: Re: tone and digital In #381, Jonathan Screnci was talking about tone and digital: > Though I enjoy listening to Thrak, I can't help wishing the tones and the > quality of the recording sounded better. As to the overall sound of the > record, there is a digitized sheen that glosses over the whole record like > a sickly sweet frosting. Anyone that's recorded in the digital domain, and > especially directly to DAT can identify with this. Bottom line, analog > recording enhances warmth and bottom end and digital the highs and mids. I too have a beef with the sterile production on THRAK, but you can't lay all of that on digital. Peter Gabriel's security is a motherfucker for rich sound and the low end, and that's all digital. Jonathan may well be right, digital recording may inherently limit produciton quality, but THRAK's problems run much deeper than that. I have this fantasy of winning a bet with Fripp ("My god, man, to think that all this time I thought Demi Moore's breasts were real!") and making them play without all of their toys for a night. Well, Ade can keep the drill, but other than that they get 20 year old gear. And Fripp has to dress like Bootsy Collins, of course. A man's gotta dream shamus ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ ~^ Shamus Young | Come Visit! ^~ ~^ machismo at u dot washington dot edu | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~machismo ^~ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ ~^ "She was a woman, a traitor, and a killer. Males and females ^~ ~^ wanted her. But I was the only one who could have ever loved ^~ ~^ her." ^~ ~^ --Denis Johnson ^~ ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^^~^~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 23:07:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Zero the Hero Subject: Savoy 81 My vote on Savoy 81 - Hell yes! :-) Actually, a better idea may be to include the Savoy show(s) as part of a four-disc box set a la The Great Deceiver, featuring the 80s band. Didn't the Fripp say he was going to compile something like this? Jason ----- jeller at unf dot edu Computing Services, University of North Florida Listen to DREAMS WIDE AWAKE http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html Saturday nights from 8 to 12-ish Hosted by Jason Ellerbee Airing from the University of North Florida worldwide via the Internet at http://www.unf.edu/groups/wosp/stream.htm Feedback is welcomed and encouraged! ------------------------------ From: "Andy Gower" Subject: Suggestions for future releases Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 20:18:32 -0700 Not like Fripp needs help in arranging future (past) KC releases but I think we can help him make the decision by contributing commentary as to what the fans want to see first. Since two live incarnations haven't been represented by reissues yet, it would only make sense to cover them. Fripp has praised Mel Collins' performances numerous times and the release of 21CSM shows that Fripp intends to cover the Islands-era KC in the future. I like Collins' work on the tracks from FbF and would love to hear more to the extent that McDonald has been represented on releases. The 80's stands as one of the most popular and easily the most critcally acclaimed version of KC. I enjoy their studio work but I am interested to see how the material worked in concert. Compared to other lineups it doesn't sound like this KC improvised very much, but I'm sure Fripp can dig up some good examples. No commentary is really needed for the live concert that produced Starless & Bible Black because it is already apparently being planned for release, but Fripp is also strong in his praise of the Central Park concert that ended the tour in 1974. Maybe that's what USA 2 will be. Why was there no KC with Muir on the Great Deceiver? I would very interested to hear some of those performances given Muir's renowned improv talent. Cat Food For Thought Andy Gower ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:31:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Zero the Hero Subject: KC sheet music? Hey, does anyone know of the existence of any actual Crimson sheet music? I'm not talking about guitar tablature; I mean that stuff with notes and staves and clefs. The closest I've seen are the drum transcriptions in Bruford's 'When in Doubt Roll!' (which is great for me since I am, in fact, a drummist). Thanks much, Jason ----- jeller at unf dot edu Computing Services, University of North Florida Listen to DREAMS WIDE AWAKE http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html Saturday nights from 8 to 12-ish Hosted by Jason Ellerbee Airing from the University of North Florida worldwide via the Internet at http://www.unf.edu/groups/wosp/stream.htm Feedback is welcomed and encouraged! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:54:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Zero the Hero Subject: Prism and Elevens Hi again, Okay, I've seen 'em live and I've got the video, but I haven't figured it out yet: Which one's 'Prism' and which is 'Elevens'? Is 'Prism' the percussion trio with Belew? Is 'Elevens' the duel-bass-drum 'fanfare' used to open some shows (8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1, faster, FASTER!)? Thanks in advance, Jason ----- jeller at unf dot edu Computing Services, University of North Florida Listen to DREAMS WIDE AWAKE http://www.unf.edu/~jeller/dreams.html Saturday nights from 8 to 12-ish Hosted by Jason Ellerbee Airing from the University of North Florida worldwide via the Internet at http://www.unf.edu/groups/wosp/stream.htm Feedback is welcomed and encouraged! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 02:00:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: jazz analogues to Fripp If I may add my two cents to this inherently goofy topic, if I had to pick a jazzer with Frippian attributes I'd pick Ornette Coleman, not so much for what he plays (though both he and KC get crazy with the free improv thing), but because like Fripp, he's invented his own musical practice ('harmolodics' vs. 'new standard tuning') and, like Fripp speaks of music in mystico/abstract terms that fill up many paragraphs but often leave this reader wondering what the hell he's talking about ;> there's also a mundane link : Coleman-->Jamaaladeen Tacuma (bassist) --> Bruford (played on one of JD's solo albums)-->Fripp. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:04:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Cervero Subject: F sharp >From ET #383: > Just a quick comment. F flat is E. To whom is this not common? Ian > McDonald is a multi-instrumentalist whose middle name is transposition. > What was Robert Cervero talking about? Uh......nevermind. I realized this miscue after the post, but didn't think the correction warranted bandwidth. I stand corrected -- wrong chromatic, F sharp, not F flat (which as someone who's been toiling in music for many moons I well realize is an E). Wetton's keyboardist, Martin of IQ, mentioned that Wetton favors vocals in F sharp. McDonald plays In the Court in D, a key less to Wetton's liking. The thrust of this conversation was that Wetton and McDonald couldn't just hit the stage without working out their predilictions for different keys. I well realize McDonald is capable of transposing music, though working out such minutia beforehand was evidently an issue in the mind of Wetton and his keyboardist. They must have ironed things out since Ian joined Wetton in New York (though evidently nothing was played from the first Crimson album, in either F sharp or D). Picky, picky, picky..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:09:55 -0400 From: Michael Townsend Subject: Re: Central Park 7-1-74 BIGJANK at aol dot com wrote: >At the end of the show, the announcer says "all 4 exits are open". This always >seemed kinda strange for a concert in a park? I've lurked on this list for over a year without posting - just didn't seem worth it anymore. But when you guys start talking about the Central Park show, I can't restrain myself any longer. This was the ultimate KC experience for me, and nothing since has equalled it. To answer your question, the concert was in Wollman Rink, an enclosed area near the south end of the park. My most distinct memory of that show was the end - everybody shuffling out of the exits like dazed zombies, totally blown away (I was in the SECOND ROW and believe me, the volume was nearly deafening)...as "No Pussyfooting" wailed away on the PA... But enough wallowing in the past; let's get on to the Crimson-Yet-To-Come - and please Toby, can we kill this Fripp-Miles thread? [ Yep -- Toby ] mtownsend at earthlink dot net Dad's New Slacks PO Box 4722 Portland ME 04112-4722< ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 97 16:02:09 UT From: "Ashley Collins" Subject: F flat/E > Just a quick comment. F flat is E. To whom is this not common? Ian > McDonald is a multi-instrumentalist whose middle name is transposition. > > What was Robert Cervero talking about? They're the same note enharmonically, much as A# = Bb, but the name you give it depends on the key you're in. If you're playing in A, the perfect fifth is E, but if you're playing in B double-flat, it's Fb. Not the greatest example, since I'm just using enharmonic equivalents, but I'm scrambling to remember everything from that basic theory course I took in college. :v) Ah well. Ashley Collins Frasier2 at msn dot com ------------------------------ From: "Heilbronner, Michael" Subject: Re: Tracking Problem with Epitaph Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:23:00 -0400 Biffyshrew at aol dot com wrote: >Has anyone else had problems with mistracking of the first disc in the >_Epitaph_ set? Yes, but only on one of my 3 cd players (unfortunately, it's the one I use at home, which is the most expensive and by far nicest of the three). >My copy suffered from a very irritating crackly distortion, >especially in louder passages. When played on my NAD home player, my copy of disc one has this problem. When played in my car cd player (Acura brand) and my "box" at work (Sony) the disc sounds fine. The other 3 discs sound fine on all of my cd players. >I returned the defective disc to Possible Productions, but the replacement >they sent me was identical to the first one. I returned my original copy of disc one to Possible, and they replaced it with one that has the problem on _some_ of the songs -- the ones at the end of the disc. Unfortunately, before I realized it still had the problem on some of the songs, I had already written Possible saying the problem was corrected on the 2d disc. I thought that, however, only because I hadn't yet listened to the whole thing. I also thought there may have been something wrong with that particular cd player, but your post suggests otherwise, namely, that there's something wrong with the pressing of the cd. Curiously, the only other time I've had this problem was when I purchased the YesYears box -- which I promptly returned. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:46:38 -0500 (CDT) From: tcona at ix dot netcom dot com (Anthony J. Cona,Jr.) Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #383 I've got several great recordings from King Crimson's Thrak Tour 1995 that I'm willing to trade. I'd like to trade for some other Crimson recordings. If anyone has the Epitath box set and would like to trade for three complete concert recordings E-Mail me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 16:52:26 -0400 From: btomko at glasscity dot net Subject: Tour Dates, Crimsound Can anyone give me some of the URLs to watch for tour dates for Wetton and Trey Gunn? I didn't see them listed in the FAQ or at www.treygunn.com, and I've emailed a few ETers with no reply. These shows sound fantastic, but they probably won't swing by my area. Speaking of which are there any other subscribers in the Toledo, Ohio area? After having many people tell me I need to buy ItCotCK, I have finally purchased a copy. I'd been putting it off because I wasn't that impressed with "In the Wake of Poseidon". I am really impressed with the sound, especially on tracks one and five.The great thing about Crimson is that no matter what mood I'm in or what kind of music I want to hear, I can always find it on a Crimson cd. As to the comment that Tony Levin needs to go back to a jazz bass through an SVT, don't you think that a Music Man through a Trace Elliot is every bit as classic? Besides, if the jazz bass thing is so cliche. Bass sound has progressed beyond that, but the rest of the musical world doesn't seem ready to accept it. Tony Levin has one of the coolest bass tones I've ever heard, along with Mick Karn and Mike Gordon of Phish. Mark Tomko the new guy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:32:40 -0800 From: Stephen Arthur Subject: For Sale KC cd singles I have the Dinosaur Sex, Sleep, Eat, Drink, Dream cd singles up for sale, if you are willing. I believe they are out of print. steve (contact me directly) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:28:32 -0700 (PDT) From: michael damian jeter Subject: Groon & Tony Williams Lifetime >------------------------------ > >From: "Andy Gower" >Does anyone else think Fripp on Groon is comparable to >John McLaughlin on Tony Williams Lifetime "Emergency". Fripp has stated that he was quite taken by the "Emergency" album in the "Guitars and Chocolates" interview from MUSICIAN mag. OTOH, in the same interview, he stated, that he avoided the MO, as he felt it would seduce him. Michael Damian Jeter Department of English, Kingsborough Community College, Brooklyn, NY Purpleheart Chapman Stick, #1139 Whatever you do, a teacher works harder than you do -- George Clinton, Central Park, NY, July 4, 1996 ------------------------------ From: leslabb at ptd dot net Date: Fri, 30 May 97 20:58:12 -0400 Subject: Eptiaph - My First Listen I just picked up my copy of EPITAPH today, and am listening as I write. The music presented is better than I could have imagined. The combination of the package design, liner notes, and great music cries out for a Grammy Nomination for "Best Boxed Set", or something. While reading the comments from the band members I noticed that many of them have made reference to the injestion of certain controlled substances. Not on their part, but that of the listener, and how some felt that the band must have been high to compose such music. I myself have experienced this from friends who feel music like King Crimson is drug music, and that you have to be "High" in order to enjoy it. I feel that individuals who believe this must find Crimsonesque music a frightening adventure. An adventure that moves you from where you are at the begining of the "TRIP" to another place at the end, and in doing so changes you in some way. This fear of letting go, and exploring new territories contributes to this misunderstanding. Quoted From Mr. Fripp's Liner notes accompanying the Epitaph set: "Whenever music appears for the first time, or as it for the first time, a door opens from which hope may enter our sorry world. The price of going through that door is very high." Although I won't deny the consumption of "Controlled Substances", I never needed them to enjoy music. The grade school I attended was very "Progressive", and I had many field trips to the local sympony, theater groups, and art houses (I grew up in Pittsburgh, PA). Also, my Father is from Iran, and so I was exposed to Middle Eastern Music, Food, and Culture. I took possesion of his vinyl copy of an early Miles Davis album, some Ravi Shankar, and other Middle Eastern groups (He long since stopped using his records, and moved to cassettes.) Like many children I experienced a divorce of my parents. I stayed with my Mother, who married an individual from Seirra Leone (Very tragic situation going on in this country presently). Thus I was exposed to Music, Food, Culture from Western Africa. All this long before I experienced my first toke of a joint. Well one day back in 1973 I was at the local record with my Dad and was going to purchase an album with my Allowance. I looked at both ITCOTCK, and Tarkus. The clerk working the store convinced my Dad I "Would not enjoy them". Needless to say here I am some 24 years later enjoying this boxed set. What a wonderful world it is! Les B. Labbauf "The less you know, the more you believe" Bono, Last Night On Earth. "Windows multitasking barely works without destabilizing the system" John C. Dvorak, PC Magazine Columnist. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 11:36:05 EST From: "Mark Jordan" Subject: Mellotrons technology and KC versions Hi ETers Tom Ace wrote in response to my description of a mellotron - >You don't need to imagine a motor for each note, because that's not >how Mellotrons worked. There was a reel of tape for each note, but >all the tapes passed over one long motor-driven capstan. Pressing a >key would bring a pinch roller down to press the corresponding tape >against the capstan. When the key was released, the tape would >retract onto its supply reel. Thanks for the correction Tom. It had been a long time since I'd seen one and my memory of the actual workings were a bit hazy. Victor Fiorillo wrote >Yes, the "pure" mellotron tone can be reproduced, but part of >the "sound" of the mellotron comes from its defects, >temperamentalism, and idiosyncracies. It is the defects,temperamentalism, and idiosyncracies that are the reason why I suggested that a "vintage" keyboard module might be a better investment. I'm sure Jame will make up his own mind. Thanks to Ted White provided a great insight into the evolution of this intrument. On another matter. Epitah is obviously being appreciated greatly by the number of positive submissions I'm reading but for me the early KC leaves me a bit cold. Many years ago I dug it but now I much prefer the Starless, Red, Larks and the Discipline, Beat, Three era's much more. I bought the Great Deceiver set and was really impressed and thankful that it was brought out (is USA available on CD?) but I've been waiting for agaes for some live stuff from the 80's KC. Robert mentioned in an interview (guitar player)that this was the "greatest performing rock band in the world" and that some knights on stage he "saw angels fly by". C'mon Robert, release some of the tapes of this lineup. I's definately buy a four CD box set of this lineup. As for the new stuff. Most of it I like, some of it I find tedious. But you can't please all of the people all of the time. Best to all Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 22:48:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Ruination at aol dot com Subject: THRaKaTTak and the Reunification of the1969 Band Dear RF and Fellow ETers: Since this is my first ET contribution, please forgive me if this is a bit long in tooth. If anyone cares to know, I am 36 and have been a Crimhead for the last 20 years. I first became interested in KC when there was no KC to speak of, during those first, dark, interregnum years before "Discipline". My own opinion (take it or leave it) is that while I think RF and the boys in the current lineup are virtuosi in their own right, this does not mean that I am not "enamoured" of every incarnation of KC in the sense of some my fellow ETers who, I take it, seem to think that everything KC ever recorded from ITCOTCK through to THRaKaTTaK is all "nectar of the gods". I consider myself a loyalist and I like RF and KC very much, but, some of their work, such as Lizard and Islands, is to me sub-standard fare. Whereas ITCOTCK represents the explosion of KC's conception and birth, parts of ITWOP, Lizard and Islands represent KC's puberty-- developmental and awkward. However, later works such as LTIA, SABB, Red, the Discipline trilogy and especially THRaKaTTaK, are triumphs and, in my mind should be an essential part of any true audiophile's collection. There are two areas I should like to cover: (1) THRaKaTTaK, and; (2) Whether or not the first incarnation of KC (1969) should reform and record an album. 1) THRaKaTTaK Even though RF's robust ego needs no feeding, I must say as a devout listener of Shostakovich, Messiaen, Mahler and Bartok, that I was quite overwhelmed by THRaKaTTaK. It may be KC's finest hour. In all my life I have never listened to a more disquieting, unrepentant, or Mephistophelian piece of music. I say this after having given it a good listen of 75 to 100 times. (Well made music never wears out.) And the more I listen to THRakaTTaK, the more it matures and overwhelms. It is probably the scariest piece of music I have ever listened to. I defy any of you to listen to it, in its entirety, in the dark. These Crimscapes are Danteian in the extreme. THRaKaTTaK is a tour de force, an improvisational tsunami, if you will. Definitely NOT for the faint of heart. But more than that, THRaKaTTaK represents a milestone for KC and rock music because it attains something that RF seems to have been intent on ever since the days of SABB--indiscipline's raw essence. Parts of the album are almost Enoesque, others cacophonous. In my mind, RF and the boys have pushed the improvisational envelope to the extreme with THRaKaTTaK. This bothers me only to the extent that it raises the questions: Artistically speaking, where does KC go from here? With the release of Epitaph, has KC come full circle? Is a reincarnation of the first KC line-up inevitable? 2)Should RF and the 1969 KC Reform? (My answer is more for my fellow ETers, than for RF, who, I can't imagine is giving this any serious consideration. Barry Gordon's comment in ET#376 that "Fripp did say that he would play with these blokes if they would want to," can't be for real.) The answer: Absolutely, unequivocally, NO, for several reasons. (1) While the 1969 KC band members (apart from RF) may have been bon vivants, good old eggs and great party animals, they were not, are not, and never will be virtuosi (e.g. ELP's "Love Beach," and any Foreigner album). On the other hand, the current double trio line-up contains arguably the very best pool of talent that RF has ever assembled to give KC a voice. Six (count 'em) virtuosi. THRaKaTTaK PROVES that. 2)Why would anyone want to diminish the tremendous artistic achievements of KC from Discipline through THRaKaTTak by giving into, dare I say, sentimentalism? And let's face it, who was really blown away by those two new Beatles' songs last year? No one. The Beatles broke up in the late 60's and they should have stayed that way. The same is true for ELP. So take my advice and "Let it be," Fripp. To your credit you are universes beyond what Greg Lake, the Giles brothers and Ian MacDonald are doing today, or could hope to do. Nothing, from my view, could be more dismal or pathetic than to have Pete Sinfield try to recapture the magic by trying to grind out some sad retro-lyrics when Adrian Belew is the best wordsmith to ever fall in KC's lap. (Sorry Pete, it's true, stick to Celine) Why have Giles feebly "boom-chick" when Bill Bruford and Pat Mastelotto are better drummers with one arm tied behind their backs than any previous KC drummers? Why have Ian MacDonald wheeze into a sax in 1997 when KC moved decidedly (and correctly) rockwards by abandoning woodwinds in the 70's? Yes, ITCOTCK was great, wonderful, earth-shattering and all those other superlatives. But, no, a reunification of the 1969 band would be King Crimson becoming King Lear, senile and confused. As I said before, I cannot believe, in all honesty, that RF would give any more thought to resurrecting the 1969 band than a mild chuckle. Release concert recordings from 1969 and the early 70's? Sure! Great Idea! But the KC of 1969 is gone, because (and this is my point finally) KC and RF matured artistically and moved on, and things should STAY that way. RF's and KC's current plane have no tangent with what the rest of the 1969 band members are doing today. It would be very bad fit. Besides, I saw the double trio KC do TFCSM in Philly last year and they probably did a better job of it than any previous KC line-up. End of argument. 3)Finally, the act of music's primary function is not, to my knowledge, to make money. But if making money is removed altogether from the argument for reunification, recording and touring, then there is no reason left for the 1969 KC to reform. No reason at all. I will now get off my soap box. Thank you for allowing me to ramble, JG Ruination at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:34:02 -0400 (EDT) From: KB305 at aol dot com Subject: epitaph PossProd never did respond to my e-mail order... so I bought a 2-disk version at Cheapo Disc in Minneapolis. It's a thing of beauty. I am struck in particular by: 1. The JAZZ chops of this bunch. Not simply Ian's free approach to alto playing, nor Michael's impeccable time and swing feel, but also Robert's use of minor 9th voicings and stacked fourths. These young men had a clear knowledge of a harmonic vocabulary that included the jazz idiom of the time, alongside the Bartok and Debussy they readily acknowledged. Fripp's dance band gigs show. 2. The openness of the playing. At any time we could go anywhere, and it's very apparent to me. I shudder re comparisons to Miles or Trane. Fripp is Fripp. I have little doubt that these men had heard a lot of jazz when these recordings were made. I am not hallucinating: in the middle of the improv near the end of Disc One there is a snippet of the first few seconds of the Beatles' 'Bungalow Bill'. That's a nylon-string guitar appearing there in the middle of that live electric improvisation... The book is fabulous too. It seems pointless to ask questions of Fripp any more; he reveals himself time and again. And now, to Disc Two... Kevin Brunkhorst ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:56:10 -0400 (EDT) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Epitaph Listening Party Reviews and Photos at ET Web ETers, Thanks to Karen Stober and Robert Cervero, we have 3 new pages in the Reviews area covering the Epitaph Listening Parties in London and New York. These pages include photographs courtesy of Karen and Robert. You are invited to stop by for a look. Cheers! Dan ET Web ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 22:37:32 -1000 From: jack Subject: Eric Tamm book Aloha all. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of "Robert Fripp: From King Crimson to Guitar Craft; by Eric Tamm. It is out of stock/out of print at all the places I checked. His book on Brian Eno is excellent., Thanks, Jack ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 15:44:27 +1900 Subject: Re:More info on R.W.Palmer-James Mr. Palmer-James lurks somewhere in obscurity. Here's what I found in "J.Wetton Tapes, part II - July 24,1995": "Dave: Tell me about the Jacknife project. JW: The exact truth of it is, is that it was a band that I had at school. It wasn't called Jacknife then, it was called the Palmer-James group. Our drummer was Alec James, our guitar player was Richard Palmer. Richard Palmer then adopted the moniker Palmer-James, and then went on to be a lyricist for King Crimson when I was there. I had the luxury of being signed to a production deal with EG records. Which meant that people like myself, Robert Fripp, Brian Eno & Phil Manzanera could do what we wanted to - make any kind of record that we wanted to. Jacknife was something I always wanted to do. The drummer wasn't available, but the remaining three of us were there. Richard Palmer-James, John Hutchinson and myself. John now puts satellites into space in San Diego. Richard does lyrics for German bands. The Jacknife album was done in ten days in Musicland in Munich. It was 1978. Why did he do it? Because he could! (laughs)" And he did this before, in 1974 he wrote lyrics for a German jazz/rock/ prog band Emergency's LP _No Compromise_. Palmer-James later played with Frank Diez (gt), Peter Bischof (voc) both from Emergency and John Wetton in Jacknife. And as I mentioned before, he also collaborated with La Bionda in 1978 & 1979. Bye, Vasily Net-Tamer V 1.09 Beta - Test Drive ------------------------------ From: mnolan at pdd dot pioneer dot co dot uk (Matthew Nolan) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:30:13 +0100 Subject: Braising Steak Re Jonathan Screnci's 'Tone: Where's the beef?' in ET#381 > The more digital processing gear you add into the mix, either to create the > tone or > to mix the thing, is going to add what I like to refer to as "digital > desensitization" of the sound. It's hard to keep it from sounding one > dimensional,hollow, brittle and slick. Though the music may have plenty, the > sound can end up having no "balls"(= warmth and low end). Just A/B Thrak > with something far less imaginative like a Stone Temple Pilots Record and > you'll hear a dramatic difference. I'd agree with this up to a point, but I'd say the production and 'tones' on Thrak are pretty good. But not 'commercial' and power-chordy - which will always sound 'better' sonically. Also, commercial and power-chordy stuff will still sound good over radio, or on a low-fi system, whereas more complex adventurous music will tend to sound worse and worse as you reduce the -fi. Try listening to Thrak on a really good system in a decent listening room and you'll understand. In my own experience with recording, I have found that the more complex the music, the more difficult it becomes to make it sound 'ballsy' without just ending up with a muddy cluttered mess. With the Double Trio, I can imagine it is very challenging to mix a well defined *and* bombastic result. I think in the case of Thrak, a fine job has been done. Fripp's guitar tone on Dinosaur is just great for me. In general though, digital recording and production can give things a very cold clinical edge. Many studios get around this using valve EQs or valve compressors at some stage. As for guitars in general, I read somewhere that Fripp uses a 'SansAmp' - reputedly the best cabinet simulator around, but probably not as good as the ideal stack with ideal settings in an ideal room with microphones placed in ideal positions - spot the portability / repeatability of results problem? Also, an amp simulator allows you a much broader palette of sounds - effectively changing amplifiers at the flick of a switch. I don't really have strong feelings for or against 'simulators' vs the real thing, I'm just presenting various pros and cons for your consumption. Personally, I'm not too keen on the 'sound' of the 80's albums, but I'm sure there are loads of you who feel strongly opposed to that. Enough musings, Matt Nolan. ------------------------------ From: bullj1 at westatpo dot westat dot com Date: Mon, 02 Jun 97 10:26:13 EDT Subject: Epitaph Two things: 1. I received the Epitaph set and other merchandise in a timely manner from PossProd - they deliver! 2. Robert Fripp & KC came to my attention in a different way from many of you. When I attended my first Guitar Craft course in 1985, I had little idea who the guy was, wasn't terribly fond of 21stCSM, and wondered why my seminar-mates seemed so awestruck. Luckily, I soon figured it out. But I still didn't like pre-Discipline-era KC. So getting the Epitaph set was more an experiment and act of support. Listening to it, I was stunned. And it really brought home the difference between studio & live band. Joan Bull bullj1 at westat dot com ------------------------------ From: ToddM at LaserMaster dot Com Organization: LaserMaster Corporation Date: 2 Jun 1997 10:06:42CST6CDT Subject: Fripp's upcoming G3 appearance... Well, I have my ticket for the June 30th show in Minneapolis and was perusing the local radio stations, vainly searching for something listenable. All of a sudden, in the best "MONSTER TRUCKS" announcer style, the G3 concert was advertised. They mention Vai, Satriani, Kenny Wayne (would have preferred the sublime Eric Johnson, but such is life - he just came through at the Guthrie with his own band and it was a fabulous show) and ROBERT FRIPP! The announcer, his voice liberally pumped up by reverb, delay and some kind of unusual time compression effect made it sound like they were advertising a local monster truck pull. Fripp was prominently mentioned several times throughout the advertisement. Todd Madson PressMate Product Specialist LaserMaster Big Color Technical Support Corporate Web Site: http://www.lasermaster.com/ LaserMaster BBS: (612) TEK-LINE OTIS Faxback Service: (612) 943-3737 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:16:12 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Till September YO! Whats up? Not having a computer until a late August move..I will truly miss et.If anyone is interested in printing ET and sending it to me this summer please email me asap.I could offer a trade&/or$. The last, et it was mentioned about Thrak attack being somewhat out there.I always wanted to make a similiar post...but then ten years from now,finally ,getting,it.This was the case for me with many of Fripps and KC work.Then again I think both Tony and Adrian said they only listen to it once. Lets face it many of KC&RF works are self indulgent in mmho.That, I fell,is an important part of KC,figuring out were there coming from days, months,years, decades later.Hence,I was totally bored with LTIA PT.1,until about a year ago, and now its a fav.I'm sure you all could think of similar songs and experences. There out there.Total out there.An aquired taste.Like none other.I know of no other music that this rings true.Pink Floyd? They may have a much larger following, but are they as rabid ? As intense,I think not. Me? As long as KC&RF is together,I'll buy with out hearing a song{as we all have} because of trust. And if we don't get it maybe a decade later I will. TOBY and ET,I enjoy this. PS. All hard core fans get a copy of any Sylvain/Fripp Boots...POWERFUL!!! WARMLY, Joe Basile Industry,PA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:22:32 -0700 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: Chesterfield bootleg I thought it was interesting if this was a rare example of lyrics penned by Fripp. To me it is interesting mainly because the lyrics are very Sinfield-like. why don't you just drop in and live the life of sin the rules you pick and you choose the odds are stacked for you to lose Another thing. Before I heard "A Man, A City" on the "Epitaph" set, I thought the improv on "Get Thy Bearings" was an embryonic form of "Pictures of a City". e) Does anyone out there have a CD boot of the Chesterfield show? "The Weird Person's Guide to King Crimson Vol.2" has "Drop In", "Travel Weary Capricorn", and "Mars". I would not recommend that you get this because the sound is awful. Also I don't think it contains anything that isn't available elsewhere. Finally like most bootlegs, it is terribly overpriced. For a small additional amount, you have already purchased the 4-cd "Epitaph" set. I just had the "Epitaph" poster put into a frame that was considerably more expensive than the poster itself! Mike Tanigawa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:50:31 -0700 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: RE: Mellotron >In #380, Mark Jordan suggests that a digital "vintage sound" module is a >better investment than an original Mellotron. Coming from someone who has >played both, I could not disagree more. While it is true that Mellotrons >are touring monstrosities, the sound is impossible to emulate >successfully. Yes, the "pure" mellotron tone can be reproduced, but part of >the "sound" of the mellotron comes from its defects, temperamentalism, and >idiosyncracies. The new Virtual synthesis units (for example: Yamaha VL1) >could THEORETICALLY hack it, but I'd rather not be the one to design the >program! I have just been informed that "Dinosaur" (on "Thrak") uses a mellotron, but that does not seem to be the case. I think it sounds more like a keyboard instrument of the kind that is sold in department stores. If that is an example of a "vintage sound module", then I would have to agree that it is no substitute for an actual mellotron. Perhaps the mellotron should not be thought of as a replacement for traditional instruments. It is an instrument all by itself. As you say its imperfections contribute to its unique sound. Mike Tanigawa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 15:33:34 -0400 From: Chris Mills Subject: various Isn't the sight of the latest ET in your email box an instant morale booster? A couple of things: *Thanks Dr. Progresso for details re: Mellotron & Chamberlain. Anyone interested in hearing the difference should check out Bowie's "Low" where Eno plays a Chamberlain on both "Warszawa" and "Art Decade." It's a richer, darker sound. *I agree whole-heartedly with KC fans who prefer the Les Paul through a Hiwatt-turned-to-11 guitar sound, though I'm surprised that the Thrak-era guitar sound is being used as the negative standard. For me, the 80's-era guitar synth sound (check out the live solos on "LTiAIII on FxF) is physically painful: no ambiance, no body, just the sound of electronic components. Thrak is a step back in the right direction, IMHO. *I also agree that the sound on the VROOOM EP is terrific. It has a "6 guys sitting around the basement and playing" quality that the more refined LP lacks, not that it's inferior, just lacking in this respect that I really like. *A while back someone wondered by KC didn't record all their material live, overdubbing as necessary, the way I believe Zappa did on a number of occasions. That's a great idea. *Regards, ETers, you're the best! ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: A Couple Quick Ones Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 16:30:08 -0400 Someone was asking if the art on EPITAPH is by the same guy who did the early Genesis album covers. The short answer: No. The Genesis (and VDGG and even one Le Orme) covers were by Paul Whitehead and/or his studio. I believe he's still around, but the EPITAPH art is credited to P. J. Crook - whose style is roughly similar, but lacks the quirky awkwardnesses often found in Whitehead's work. I take exception to one of the "parallels" between Miles Davis and Robert Fripp by R. Cudney (even as I disagree with the overall concept of this comparison): "Miles Davis and his nonet [nontet] invented cool jazz." Hardly. "Cool jazz" has its origins in Lester Young (the Prez) years before 1949 (and the Davis Nontet), and was being developed as a separate style of jazz by Lennie Tristano and his students (Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh, Peter Ind and others) in 1947 and 1948. The Davis Nontet had Miles as a front man, but was a cooperative group that grew out of informal meetings at Gill Evans' place. Davis wrote none of the music. It might be slightly more legitimate to say that "Robert Fripp with King Crimson invented prog in '69," but you could get arguments there as well (as I recently did in private e-mail with Eb) - and not just over Fripp's role in this process (I've heard McDonald given greater credit). Both the Beatles and Brian Wilson did proto-prog music, and Van Dyke Parks' SONG CYCLE remains brilliantly ahead of its time. (Eb also cites the Moody Blues, with some justification.) And, if you're a mellotron freak, remember that the Beatles and the Moodies pioneered this instrument in rock. --TW (Dr P) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 10:59:23 -0400 From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" Subject: Miles, Fripp, and Trane Although it was I who posted that i thought Fripp much more similar to Trane that Miles, after reading some of the posts to the contrary I must weaken my stand a bit. I suppose if you look at the careers of Miles and Fripp, Fripp looks more like Miles than Trane. But what i was referring to was the similarity in the sound of Fripp's playing as compared to Tranes. If you take some of Tranes "sheets of sounds" (as an early example, take My Favorite Things by Trane). Both players, when they solo, have this continual , unstoppable outflow of ideas and notes. Miles' phrasings are extremely minimal. In addition, there is a sort of sensibility to the playing of Fripp and Trane that is similar, somehow. A hint of transcendence, a hint of a future age, of a peaceful psychedelic apocalypse, an awareness of God, and that there is something important about the playing of music itself, a hint of melancholy in even the most ecstatic of lines..........this is what I meant. Both also are religious men in there own unique way, both practice like crazy even between sets in one evening (so I've heard of Fripp). And although Miles' playing is also beautiful, it does not have the same sensibility as either Fripp or Trane. -Emory PS: Hooray to the mere "drummer" complaining about digital sound! It's quickly getting better, though. ------------------------------ From: "Ott, John" Subject: Epitaph Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 18:56:11 -0400 ---quote--- Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 17:07:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Biffyshrew at aol dot com Subject: Tracking problem with _Epitaph_ Has anyone else had problems with mistracking of the first disc in the _Epitaph_ set? My copy suffered from a very irritating crackly distortion, especially in louder passages. On holding the disc to the light, I could see that the playing surface had a faintly puckered or wavy appearance, noticeable only at a certain angle. The other three discs were smooth, and did not have the tracking problem. I returned the defective disc to Possible Productions, but the replacement they sent me was identical to the first one. Do any copies *not* have this puckered surface? Is the British pressing different from the U.S. one? ------end quote------ I had the same problem, twice! They are going to send me a import UK version as the third attempt. The funny thing is it played on my portable CD-ROM for my laptop, but would not play on my more expensive Kenwood CD player. I suspect the money went to the D/A not the tracking. Sometimes it would read the track directory but would not play. Sometimes it would not even read the directory. I also noticed the volume 1 CD was slightly warped (not flat) I would recommend getting volumes 3 and 4. The version of Mars on volume 3 is frighteningly heavy. I had to get up and turn down the stereo the first time I played it. It was frightening my dogs. I was a little unsettled myself. I LIKE IT!! I also picked up November Suite and the Soundscapes box. Very lovely artwork. I really like the music on NS as well. It reminds me of "A blessing of Tears" in some ways. Off to see Trey (aka Tray (on the Web), Troy (at Tower Records) ) Gunn and the CGT at the Birchmere tonight, later John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 06:14:23 +1200 From: David Maclennan Organization: Ministry of Commerce Subject: David Torn's Cloud About Mercury After reading a number of positive comments over the years about David Torn's 1987 ECM release "Cloud About Mercury" I finally succumbed and bought the thing. What took me so long???!!! It's a superb album, featuring some killer work from Tony 'n' Bill. I think if KC had been more jazz-oriented they might have sounded something like this -- there's much in common in the musical approach here. This will be on high rotation at my place for the next little while, I think! I'd heartily recommend this disc to any other ETers who have not yet heard it. David Maclennan ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Why not document the music on paper? Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 17:32:41 EDT From: John Saylor Hi >>>jrpalmer at gte dot net writes: [x] > It is hard to judge the longevity of rock and roll (other than to > say it has lasted this long), but 30-40 years is rather short compared > to the centuries such classic composers as J.S.Bach have lived on > through their own music. Bach's music was actually eclipsed by his son, J.C.Bach for a while after his death. It was Mendelsson who started the Bach "revival" with his performances of the St. Matthew Passion in the 19th Century. The position a person's music takes in "music history" says more about us than it does about their music. There is fabulous music that was written in other places than Germany, yet it doesn't have the stamp of "classical", does this make it less valuable? > It is clear that the music from those previous eras has survived solely > because it was written down, but it is not clear that because > contemporary music is recorded so easily that it will last as long. We have much better recording equipment than paper and pen, we have CD-ROM. All the same information that is on the paper [pitches, rhythms, articulation] is captured on a CD, but in addition we get more [tone color, more expression]. Someone has to figure out how to play it by listening, but musicians are very clever this way. > Sheet music allows a whole class of music students to grasp the > complexities of music that merely listening to it does not so easily > enable. Sorry, I have to disagree. I have seen many people miss the boat while looking straight at the score. There is no media that ensures understanding. > Will _Fracture_ last so long as the Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor, and if > it does will it be because future musicians will be able to pick up the > sheet music and learn the piece, with aspirants breaking themselves or > conquering that edifice? No. If it does it will because a lot of people liked the music, and thought it was important to have others listen to it. -- John Saylor MIT E40-335 617.253.0172 ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #384 ********************************