Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #383 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 383 Saturday, 31 May 1997 Today's Topics: YACU PossProd on the case! Epitaph review sinfield New Projects Epitaph!!!! Epitaph Availability Silence? / Tour reaction? John Wetton :Bottom Line Appleton ETers re: Mellotrons Re: Mellotrons Questions & Answers Re: Robert Cervero's Wetton in SF Every Colour You Are Mellotron ATTN: "Winner-Loser", "Punk vs Prog People" Butchering Trey's Name WETTON AT PROGFEST '97 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator, sort of), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator, of sorts) Subject: YACU Yes, Yet Another Cock-UP, folks, for which I am entirely to blame. Sorry. The posts in this edition should have been at the beginning of the previous edition of ET. Due to my continuing confusion and general nincompoophood, the posts got sidelined into a temp file which... well I'm sure you don't really want to know. Let's just say "Unix" at this point. And "my brain hurts". Anyway, here we are. And for those to have yet to hear the "Epitaph" box -- you must hear it! NOW! Best wishes to all. And your fearless moderator will welcome any donations of spare brain components you might have... Toby ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 17:15:39 -0400 (EDT) From: JPRICE at TrentU dot ca Subject: PossProd on the case! Hello ET types, I'm pleased to report that PossProd got back to me today and that my order is indeed being looked after. Apparently they're -very- busy (good to hear) with orders for the "Epitaph" release, and their response time is down a bit as a result. It is business as usual, however, so please be patient if you're ordering and I'll slap myself on the wrist for having less than that myself. J. P. Hovercraft aka jprice at trentu dot ca "aLSO THRaK ZaRaTHUSTRa" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 May 97 17:58:29 UT From: "Ashley Collins" Subject: Epitaph review My freshman year in college, there were two Deadheads who lived a couple doors down from me in my dorm. They provided some of the more lighthearted moments in that otherwise dismal ediface in which I was forced to dwell for those eight months. I'm referring not to their witty banter, deft line, and repartee, but to their ongoing discussions of the merits of each and every one of the Grateful Dead boots they'd accumulated: "Oh, man, have you heard 'Sugar Magnolia' from 1972 at the Fillmore?" "Yeah, man, but the one from '76 at the Meadowlands just blows it away!" The absurdity of discussing umpteen different recordings of the same song was not lost on me, and I've nearly perfected my, ah, "sedated" voice in imitating them. So with this disdain for such overkill so deeply ingrained into my being, why am I so enamoured of King Crimson's newest collection of archival recordings, Epitaph? Here we have four discs worth of more or less the same set list recorded over the course of several months in 1969, three of whose tracks are already available on KC's first boxed set, Frame by Frame. Maybe I've grown more accepting of this kind of comparison shopping. Or maybe it's that Robert Fripp and David Singleton have lovingly crafted this "Beat the Boots" collection with such a great balance of care, hard work, and panache and elucidated the growth process these songs have gone through that I can see it as the valuable historical document that it is. Many of the tracks remain relatively faithful to the studio versions, "In the Court" in particular, although I miss the light-hearted coda present on the studio version. The real meat and potatoes lie in the improvised tracks, not as tight as the ones on The Great Deciever, which, as a result, actually serve as something of a forerunner to THRaKaTTaK in that respect. The four live versions of "21st Century Schizoid Man" of course feature blistering solos by Fripp, and "Get Thy Bearings" truly bear out how this lineup could rip into a piece, particularly on the 20-minute version on disc four. Someone already mentioned the interesting bit of trivia about how the low mellotron phrase that opens "Exiles" evolved from Fripp's guitar part in the "Mantra" openings to "Travel Weary Capricorn," as well as the seeds of "Happy Family" and "The Letters" in a couple versions of "Drop In." Robert throws in some between-song banter that's entertaining as always; his dedicating "Schizoid Man" to Spiro Agnew shows that Fripp was always Fripp, even when people didn't know what a Fripp was. The live in the studio BBC versions that open disc one are also particularly good, reminiscent of Hendrix's Radio One album. The three tracks that previously appeared on FbF, "Mars" from the Fillmore West, and "Bearings" and "Capricorn" from the Plumpton festival have been cleaned up considerably from their previous state. The sound isn't always perfect, but, given the sound quality of a Velvet Underground bootleg from 1968 that I picked up, I'd say David Singleton did everything in his power to make the sound as presentable as it could be. I'm also very curious about the missing tracks from disc four, "I Talk to the Wind" and "In the Court." Singleton mentions in the liner notes that he did not include them due to power shortages that threw the mellotron horrendously out of tune. I don't begrudge him for this decision; it probably was the best for all concerned, but even so, the thought of hearing just what KC had to deal with is fascinating. Maybe he could have added them as "hidden" tracks a la the snippets at the end of discs two and three of TGD. Ah well, no point in saying "What if?" at this juncture. Well, I guess it's fortunate that I never kept in touch with those neo-hippies, as I'm sure I'd get some kind of tongue-lashing for my hypocritical remarks all those years ago. To sum up, for fans of the first album, by all means, get the four-disc set. For newbies, I can still heartily recommend the two-disc set, as DGM has thoughtfully enclosed a card you can send in to buy the other two volumes if the first two make you a convert. I'd rank this probably just a notch or less below The Great Deceiver, if only because of the slight lack of variation between sets and the somewhat poorer sound quality, neither of which could really be helped by the folks putting it together. A $35 + s&h hasn't been better spent in quite a while. Ashley Collins Frasier2 at msn dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 97 11:10:40 UT From: "GREGORY FORSTER" Subject: sinfield Hi E.T'ers, I'd like to thank all those who posted information on Peter Sinfield's post-Crimson activities. Most of the info I already knew,but neglected to put in my original posting as I thought they were too obvious...as borne out by you info. If you'll indulge me once more I'd like to list all I know of Sinfield's activities,to see if you can add anything more: Contributions: Production or otherwise, Esperanto: Danse Macabre (a 1974 album which he produced) E.L.P (Brain Salad Surgery,Works One & Two,Love Beach) Roxy Music (their debut album which he produced) Keith Christmas: Brighter Day (he produced - the album also features Greg Lake,Ian Wallace,Ian McDonald & Mel Collins) P.F.M: Photos Of Ghosts (he produced and supplied lyrics) He also contributed lyrics to the following: Gary Brooker: No More Fear Of Flying McDonald & Giles: (side two's "Birdman") John Wetton: Caught In The Crossfire (one track - "Get What You Want") He's also written a number of songs with a bloke called Any Hill (who appeared to be the driving force behind Bucks Fizz). The songs he's written with Hill have been for Bucks Fizz (The Land Of Make Believe),Leo Sayer (Have You Ever Been In Love) & Celine Dion...there's bound to be more. Again thanks for your indulgence, Regards,Greg Forster (figleeve at msn dot com dot au) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:57:07 +0100 (BST) From: Jason Bell Subject: New Projects Dear All. I just wanted to let you all know about a fairly major solo project that I am undertaking. I have decided to play ambient music in places that they would not be normally heard. I shall document my progress on my web page (the address is below). The first update shall be online this Saturday, May 31st. I don't want to say too much, as everything will be on the web site. If you have any comments, I would be glad to hear them. This will be the closest I ever get to Small, Mobile or Intelligent....... Many thanks. Jason Bell Email : xdr44 at dial dot pipex dot com OR Jason dot Bell at PEmail dot net WWW : http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/xdr44/ Chapman Stick Player and a Member Of The HTML Writers Guild ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 01:28:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierron3 at aol dot com Subject: Epitaph!!!! I can't say enough how much I enjoy Epitaph! but I'll try...The packaging and art work are fantastic...first rate! Does anyone know if the artist who did the cover is the same person who did some Genesis covers? I'd be interested to know. The book is great! I liked the fact that everyone in the group gave us their thoughts about Crimson history. I ordered the 4 disc set, and boy am I glad I did! after hearing the first 2 discs ,I craved more! All the different versions of Mars are excellent! I REALLY enjoyed the BBC stuff...the sound is pretty good,considering much of the live material comes from bootlegs...I'm just glad the stuff is even available! If you haven't picked up your very own copy of Epitaph...do so now! It really is worth the money! Mike Pierron ------------------------------ From: "Robert Dickey" Subject: Epitaph Availability Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 20:42:45 -0000 In response to Neil Forker's posting, I make the following suggestions for purchasing a copy of "Epitaph" outside the normal retail channels. (1) The 2 or 4-disc box set can be ordered in the U.S. through Possible Productions. They accept orders by phone, fax and e-mail. Their phone order line is (213) 937-3194; fax line is (213) 937-9102; e-mail address is PossProd at aol dot com. Interestingly, volumes 3 and 4 can be purchased separately for a mere $13.00. Volumes 1 & 2 are sold as a boxed set for $22.00, and the 4-disc box can be purchased for $35.00. Catalogue #'s for the various combinations are: DGM9607A/B (Volumes 1 & 2), DGM9607C/D (Volumes 3 & 4), and DGMBOX2 (Volumes 1-4). I've found these folks to very responsive, and while I've yet to place an order, I'd have no reservations in doing so. A postage and handling charge of 15% (minimum of $2.50) is added to each order. State sales tax apparently is charged only to CA residents. (2) Locally (in Atlanta), I've found the 2-disc version (i.e., Volumes 1 & 2) at Tower Records. In all likelihood, the set can be ordered from Tower via phone, using their toll-free number (which, unfortunately, I don't have handy). Typically, the set was quite pricey; I think the better bargain can be had from Possible Productions. Hope this helps! Good luck in your search. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 19:50:58 -0400 (EDT) From: dumela at nicom dot com (tj) Subject: Silence? / Tour reaction? We have a couple of tunes that start out, sometimes for numerous seconds, in complete silence (I include solo work also). Why do we have this? Is there a feeling that we are acquiring while listening to musicians holding their instruments? Perchance a few crafties could elighten here. - - - - - - I'm hoping that Robert completely burns the incoming G3 tour audiences. As many of us know his live soundscapes can have a wide variety of components. I hope he goes for their respective listening throats striking terror into their vulnerable yuppie (in part) minds. I also wonder what impact Robert will have on ticket sales. I would suppose he can't hurt. A few will leave when he's through. Any hint yet that he might do some behind the curtain work as the mystery #4 (as in G). On that chord I bid thee, ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:00:48 -0700 From: Chris Karamon Organization: - Subject: John Wetton :Bottom Line I wasn't sure what to expect last night at the show. The Nudes, the opening act were great. John came out and mixed great music with some wonderful humor. I do wish that the show was longer, but he also had a late show to save his voice for. He playd a great mixture of tunes from his entire catalog. I have always loved UK and those were some of my favs. The addition of Ian McDonald was great. Lets hope these types of tours continue. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierron3 at aol dot com Subject: Appleton ETers I would like to start a local chapter for Appleton ETers (Wisconsin that is!) anyone interested can e-mail me at pierron3 at aol dot com. Mike Pierron ------------------------------ From: crux at best dot com Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:38:05 -0700 Subject: re: Mellotrons Mark Jordan wrote in ET #380: > Mellotrons were the predessor of the sampler. They used a series of > tapes of the various sounds that you wanted to hear and when you > pressed a key the tape for that key would be played. They were quite > expensive at the time and a headache for road crews to maintain and > keep in tune. Imagine the number of little motors running all those > tapes. You don't need to imagine a motor for each note, because that's not how Mellotrons worked. There was a reel of tape for each note, but all the tapes passed over one long motor-driven capstan. Pressing a key would bring a pinch roller down to press the corresponding tape against the capstan. When the key was released, the tape would retract onto its supply reel. Tom Ace crux at best dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 10:02:13 -0700 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: Re: Mellotrons I've only ever seen one Mellotron in the flesh in 20 years as a musician and that was a long time ago. Progfest 97 (23-24 May) seems to have been intended for mellotron fans such as myself. Of the 7 bands that appeared, 4 used mellotrons. All were model 400. This is the one shown in the booklet that comes with the Great Deceiver box set. Sinkadus and Spock's Beard used two mellotrons each. The John Wetton band used a mellotron only on "Starless". Wetton also played an acoustic version of "Book of Saturday". Bigelf also appeared to have used one but I could not be sure. It was under a stack of equipment and seemed to be shorter than usual (a chopped model 400?). Their keyboardist uses an analog synthesizer and will remind you of Keith Emerson. Mike Tanigawa ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Questions & Answers Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:04:04 -0400 I haven't seen anything official, but I would guess from the arrival of 380 that it's safe to resume new postings; the backlog has been caught up. In 376, Sergei Kantere mentions a Toyah CD on the Receiver label, and that leads me to ask about a CD I recently picked up on that label. It's called "America," and is by The Nice. It purports to be BBC broadcasts, circa 1967-71 or so, and the sound, variable from track to track, is definitely subpar throughout - bootleg quality at best. Nothing like the Windsong BBC releases. Does anyone know anything about this album? And, just how "legitimate" is the Receiver label? (The name implies a somewhat dubious source for its releases.) In the same et, Bill Cormier asks about KC "written" songs performed live but never recorded or released. At one concert I attended (in Washington D.C.) the 80's Crimson performed an instrumental piece identified as "Manhattan" which had a rich, Gershwinesque melody and sounded like a throwback to the 70's band. I've never heard anything like it on record/CD - although I'd LIKE to. Pace Gordon Emory Anderson, I "feel uncomfortable" with the deification of John Coltrane - whose live sets in the late 50's/early 60's were stultifyingly boring: "sheets of sound" scale-running for twenty minutes at a time. Check out Sonny Rollins for a contemporary (to Coltrane) tenor saxophonist whose CONTENT cuts Coltrane cold. And check out Sun Ra's tenor sax player (John Gilmore) to find Coltrane's influences. In 379 Buel Chandler mentions "a connection between Robin Trower and our man Fripp." This occurred after the 1974 KC breakup, I believe, when Robert was moving in fresh directions. I recall talk of Fripp & Trower studying together, and there was a rumor of a joint album - which as far as I know never occurred. Brian McNeil, in 378, discusses the use and need for lyrics. I think in the best pieces the lyrics and the music mutually support each other and each is essential. Sinfield's lyrics for KC struck me at the time as delightfully obscure: like the music, they made me work a little to understand them. The Lark's Tongues era band used Robert Palmer-James' lyrics - does anyone know anything about him? - which worked almost as well for me. But Adrian's lyrics for the 80's and 90's KC don't work nearly as well for me - something essential is absent. Maybe it's the British accent; I dunno. In 380 Mark Jordan brings up the subject of the Mellotron. Let me add a few details to his description: The machine was invented by a guy named Chamberlin (I'm not sure I've spelled his name correctly), and a prototype was taken by someone else and sold, as his own invention, to Dallas Instruments in Britain. (Chamberlin was American.) They marketed it as the Mellotron. Meanwhile, Chamberlin - for whom that early prototype was an unsatisfactory middle-step toward the machine he wanted - perfected his own version (which, unlike the Mellotron has "real"-sounding attack and decay, aping that of the original instruments) and marketed it as "The Chamberlin" (however it's spelled). The American progressive band Ethos (two lps on Capitol) used it - one of the few bands to openly acknowledge their use of it, since the American Federation of Musicians hates it and tried to ban its use in all recording (because, theoretically, it can displace many live musicians). Meanwhile, Dallas Instruments now pays royalties on the Mellotron to Chamberlin. So, the Mellotron is an imperfect version of the Chamberlin which has found a niche of its own. (I notice a revival in its use by modern progressive bands.) Neat to hear about John Wetton's recent performance of old KC material. I met him during the first UK tour, at which time he didn't seem to want to talk about KC, and his solo albums since then betrayed few KC influences. I'm glad to hear this has changed. I've enjoyed his work since his Family days. -- Ted White (Dr. P) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 13:11:38 -0400 From: Gabe_Camacho at usccmail dot lehman dot com (Gabe Camacho) Subject: Re: Robert Cervero's Wetton in SF Just a quick comment. F flat is E. To whom is this not common? Ian McDonald is a multi-instrumentalist whose middle name is transposition. What was Robert Cervero talking about? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 18:27:49 +0100 (BST) From: Jason Bell Subject: Every Colour You Are >Sylvian & Fripp released 'Tallow Moon' on a Virgin Single with 'Jean the >Birdman'/'Gone to Earth'/'Dark Water'. 'The Colour You Are' I remembered >them playing it in concert and am pretty sure it is the song 'Every Colour >You Are' which Sylvian recorded on the Rain Tree Crow album. I'm not aware >of a Sylvian/Fripp recording of that song. I'm sure that 'Every Colour You Are' was on 'Damage', and most lovely it sounded too. Regards Jason Bell Email : xdr44 at dial dot pipex dot com OR Jason dot Bell at PEmail dot net WWW : http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/xdr44/ Chapman Stick Player and a Member Of The HTML Writers Guild ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 97 11:11:00 EDT From: c62op27 at ibx dot com (Victor Fiorillo) Subject: Mellotron In #380, Mark Jordan suggests that a digital "vintage sound" module is a better investment than an original Mellotron. Coming from someone who has played both, I could not disagree more. While it is true that Mellotrons are touring monstrosities, the sound is impossible to emulate successfully. Yes, the "pure" mellotron tone can be reproduced, but part of the "sound" of the mellotron comes from its defects, temperamentalism, and idiosyncracies. The new Virtual synthesis units (for example: Yamaha VL1) could THEORETICALLY hack it, but I'd rather not be the one to design the program! Does anyone know all of the songs that Mellotrons have been used on for King Crimson and Fripp solo projects? Or albums, at least? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:04:10 -0400 From: jprice at intcpi dot com (John Price) Organization: INTELLISOFT, CPI Subject: ATTN: "Winner-Loser", "Punk vs Prog People" Why are people wasting their time and energies along with endless realms of potentially contructive cyberspace babbling about whose the "best" at this or that or even worse; which musician was "better" or "greater" than all who ever came before & after ??? Grow up or at the very least, please act like you're somewhat of an adult online! Be conscious of the things you write and what their impact can be on folks who are open to any and all possibilities that this forum can, may & does often present. I ask all of you who are of the "winner-loser" mentality type to please take a moment & examine then understand the true purpose and childish nature of the words you spew and honestly look to see if your prattle has anything to say that would be substantially or remotely related to the experience of KC/FRIPP/Related Music... and moreover just about any other music/ artform/cultural experience you could bring to mind at that matter. Over and over it appears these persons thoughts and motivations are of their own desperate need for affirmation and acknowledgement. This will be my first, last and only acknowledgement of The BEavis and Butthead crowd on ET ( . At the risk of sounding as negative as some of the posts Ive read, please "Winner-Loser", "Punk vs Prog People", spare us all your stories, rants, raves, arguments and details !!! jprice at intcpi dot com ------------------------------ From: "Ott, John" Subject: Butchering Trey's Name Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:27:05 -0400 > The Tray Gun Band Also, The California Guitar Trio 8:00 p.m., Tickets are $13.50 < They really like to butcher his name. At Tower Records in Rockville the divider has Trey listed as "Troy Gunn" I'll be at this one later John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 12:51:53 -0700 From: "David A. Lichtenfeld" Subject: WETTON AT PROGFEST '97 Hello all Crimson fans, I saw John Wetton's band at Progfest '97, Sat. 5-24-'97, held at the Variety Arts Theater in Los Angeles. It was quite a pleasure to see Wetton with a full band but his set was uneven and short. Although he appeared with a fine band (drummer Thomas Lang, from Vienna, was fantastic!), his choice of material seemed strange for such a progressive event. These were the songs that he DID play: 1) In the Dead of Night 2) Sole Survivor 3) Battle Lines 4) Book of Saturday (Acoustic) 5) The Smile Has Left Your Eyes 6) Hold Me Now 7) Rendezvous 6:02 8) Starless (full electric version) 9) Heat of the Moment Does something look wrong here? Everytime he would play a great song, he would follow it up with a sappy song. Progfest fans didn't want to hear a lot of Asia tunes. I don't know if he was mad because no one wanted to sing along with him on "Heat of the Moment" or if he was mad at the show's promoters, but he cut his set short. I hope that he wasn't mad at L.A., because a friend of mine working on the crew saw the set list. The songs he DIDN'T do: 1) Easy Money 2) Thirty Years 3) In the Court of the Crimson King !!! I believe that John Wetton owes his L.A. fans an apology. He only played for an hour and he left out some of the best tunes that he had prepared. For all of his short-comings, "Starless" was the best song of the night. Thank you very much, -Dave Lick ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #383 ********************************