Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #380 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 380 Wednesday, 28 May 1997 Today's Topics: Revision to original tab for opening of 'Discipline' Re: Fripp the Miles of rock Guitar? Well ..... Omission. no respect for Mr. Gunn Re: Miles New Toyah CD / Sylvian tour progs available Recent fulsome, fascinating digests. Trey Gunn Band / CGT East Coast Tour Best of Savoy 1981 California Guitar Trio Update Trey Gunn/California Guitar Trio tour! Tone/Anglagard Six of One... Heat of the Moment RE: A question to the Epitaph Events attenders Satriani, Vai and others. Mellotrons Re: Steve Vai "dissin' " re: Rolling Stone and prog central park 7-1-74 Fripp Soundscapes in London 31st May Thanks to Crimson, Enough about the Sex Pistols Wetton in SF ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: Toby Howard (ET Moderator) Subject: Punk <-> Progressive After this issue, this thread is now off-limits. So there. Toby ----------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:22:32 +0100 (BST) From: dinosaur Subject: Revision to original tab for opening of 'Discipline' I was listening to Discipline on headphones, and realised that the tab that you have up is slightly wrong for the opening 2 guitar parts. Here is what I think it should be. Please listen to your copy on headphones to see if you agree with me. The main thing that I was hearing that was different was a D followed by a C, instead of a recurring C! Here we go: E |----------------------------------- B |--1-------------------------------- G |------------2---------------------- D |-------0--------------------------- A |-----------------3-----0----------- E |----------------------------------- I think this is what it should be. The other interlocking part is the same, but it starts on the 3rd note of the 5-note sequence, thus: E |----------------------------------- B |-----------------1----------------- G |--2-------------------------------- D |----------------------0------------ A |-------3----0---------------------- E |----------------------------------- I would welcome any comments! Keep THRaKKING, James. *--------------------------------------------------------* jAMES bEARD - http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ the university of kent @ canterbury It's only talk. *--------------------------------------------------------* Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 11:04:03 -0400 From: Gabe_Camacho at usccmail dot lehman dot com (Gabe Camacho) Subject: Re: Fripp the Miles of rock Guitar? Well ..... Gordon Anderson desperately needs to listen to Trane's corpus on Prestige, Atlantic, and Impulse, if he finds musical similarities between Fripp and Coltrane. There might be comparable levels of respect that people have today for Fripp and Coltrane, and that's certainly something to discuss. But, with regards to contributions to linear and harmonic development in music, Coltrane's only (? possible ?) parallels in rock guitar would be Holdsworth and McLaughlin (any other appropriate suggestions?). May I suggest "Blue Train", "Giant Steps", and "A Love Supreme" as reasonable starting points for comparison to "No Pussyfooting", "Exposure", and "Discipline" (or any other Fripp work). Fripp has a much more distinctive voice in what he's done with electronics and rhythm guitar work, but the parallel there truly is to Miles, not Trane. Gabe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 13:10:39 -0400 (EDT) From: JOHNSONP Subject: no respect for Mr. Gunn >From the Birchmere (Alex., VA) June calendar webpage (copied and pasted here): 2 The Tray Gun Band Also, The California Guitar Trio 8:00 p.m., Tickets are $13.50 Anyone know what material is to be played? Third Star? New stuff? Female vocal accompaniment? Decent ticket price. Looking forward to the show. pj ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 10:24:02 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Miles >From: "Gordon Emory Anderson" > >I think a better analogy is to call Fripp the >John Coltrane of Rock Guitar, except there may be two problems with >this. Perhaps he's the Anthony Braxton of rock guitar? Or perhaps there's some other "brainy," theory-fixated saxophonist I'm forgetting (or don't know)...? Eb ------------------------------ From: Ruud van de Kruisweg Subject: New Toyah CD / Sylvian tour progs available Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:09:02 GMT Organization: Dreaming While U Sleep, Inc. >From: skantere >Subject: New Toyah CD / Sylvian tour progs available >I'm still totally unfamiliar with earlier Toyah's work. There seem >to be at least two Best-ofs currently in circulation, one on Connoisseur >label and other on Nectar Masters. Half of the tracks differ. Is there >any hard-core Toyah fan on this list who could suggest which is better in >terms of track selection, sound quality? I have the Connoisseur 'Best of' and it's a good collection of most if not all of her single releases. There are a number of tracks on this CD that have never been released on CD before, so it's a good buy even if you have all the other regular Toyah CDs. (Haven't seen the other 'Best of' so I can't comment on that.) One to avoid at all costs is 'Looking Back'. This is a rerecording of twelve old Toyah songs, most of which are also on the Connoisseur 'Best of'. The band on this CD is absolutely dreadful and none of the tracks come even near the quality of the original songs. I was lucky that I only paid $5 for it, it would be outright theft if it had cost the same as a full price CD. The best old Toyah stuff IMO are: 'Anthem' (CD has been out of print for many years), 'The Changeling' and 'Warrior Rock' (which have never been released on CD unfortunately). Ruud == Holland SF - SF in the low countries: http://www.bwot.tmf.hva.nl/~ncsf/ Ruud van de Kruisweg - The Flat Earth Company - kruisweg at flatearth dot demon dot nl [Note: My email-address has been SPAM-proofed. Use the address in this sig.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 12:20:47 +0100 From: Neil Talbott Subject: Recent fulsome, fascinating digests. '...some ETers visiting the EPITAPH-playback in NY were quite enthusiastic about the possibility of the reunification of the first incarnation of KC. I wonder how many of you feel as uneasy as me about this idea. First of all, all reunited bands I know were disappointing. I think of ELP, Deep Purple, Yes etc.. Secondly, one of the major strength of KC was its ability to redefine Crimson around the genius of Fripp. This unease I see reflected in the dispute about resurrecting KC alltime favourites like Fracture ant Starless. I think KC should move on into the future and not reflect to heavily on its past.' et#374 In response to this, let me say that all the reports of the EPITAPH Playback in NY from Robert Cervero, Chris Van Halen and others (all wonderful reading) really gave me a positive lift. Having attended the UK playback, and being British and not able to fly to NY, it was netherless fantastic to be able to live through vicariously the experiences of the U.S. fans of KC. The prospect of the original lineup reforming to possibly do an album (either studio or from a handful of gigs) filled me with anticipation. Agreed that many reformed prog bands have been disappointing but in the case of the names mentioned, there has never been any stylistic progression from their early days. The Yes live album 'Keys to Ascension', for instance, was perhaps enjoyable for vivid performances of their old repertoire, the old farts really rocked and gave their money's worth, but the new tracks cut in the studio were stillborn from the start - I'd rather have had them issue a few more live tracks. The reformed Yes works best as a cover band of the old Yes repertoire . So why am still positive about a possible re-union. 1) Fripp alone would not allow any such re-formation to merely retread old tracks. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since '69, and a lot of stylistic progression too. 2) I think your writer underestimates the creative potential of the other musicians, particularly Macdonald and Giles, given the opportunity to interact with 'the genius of Fripp'. 3) KC has always moved into the future and never relied too heavily on the past. That's why it has always remained volatile. Its just possible then that a reunion of the original lineup would produce the right chemistry for an innovative band that should never be forgotten. Having more than one KC would be a little schizoid ... but if commitments allow it to be a possibility, then I don't think Fripp, Macdonald, Giles, Lake and Sinfield should be damned for trying. Middle aged people can be angry and energetic too, you know : and make better music than any of the young guitar bands in the Brit charts. ...What attracts me to King Crimson/why don't I like punk? KC - awesomely dark and gritty sound texture, heavy use of dissonance and exciting rhythmic patterns, original angular melodic formations (not rock or blues- influenced), unique and consistent, real music ahead of its time, exhilarating to listen to. Sex Pistols - Loud and crude, three chord wonders (musically challenged), Music biz hype 'The six Apostles' (not a lot to do with politics, or music), boring to listen to (most chart music is boring anyway). I did try to listen to 'Never Mind the Bollocks' and admired the negative raw energy but thought 'never mind...it's a load of bollocks'. This is of course just a personal opinion, I was never swayed by the musical press, the dictates of fashion, or what was 'politically correct' at the time. ... Lastly, as a non-sequiteur after my previous ramblings, a reply to Joe Basile (ET#374 -Tallow Moon). Sylvian & Fripp released 'Tallow Moon' on a Virgin Single with 'Jean the Birdman'/'Gone to Earth'/'Dark Water'. 'The Colour You Are' I remembered them playing it in concert and am pretty sure it is the song 'Every Colour You Are' which Sylvian recorded on the Rain Tree Crow album. I'm not aware of a Sylvian/Fripp recording of that song. -- Neil Talbott ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 18:55:26 -0400 (EDT) From: PaulyRich at aol dot com Subject: Trey Gunn Band / CGT East Coast Tour Hello All, The Trey Gunn Band and the California Guitar Trio will on tour together on the East Coast (USA) the first week of June 97. The tour dates and locations are as follows. Get your tickets now!!!! June 2 - Alexandria, VA - The Birchmere June 3 - Baltimore, MD - Orion Sound Studios June 4 - Philadelphia, PA - Tin Angel (2 shows) June 5 - New York, NY - Bottom Line (2 shows) June 6 - Boston, MA - Paradise the trey gunn band: trey gunn -- 8-string warr guitar chris cunningham -- 8-string warr guitar tony geballe -- electric guitar bob muller -- tabla and drums The CGT is currently working on their 3rd album and will be going into the studio immediately after this tour to record. At the end of June, the CGT will be performing 3 shows in Quebec City, Canada. June 27th and 28th at Bar Spectacle le d' Auteuil and on June 29th at "Pigeonnier Park" as opening act for John McLaughlin. For more information, please call Catalyst Management, Catharina Masters-Plen at 310-271-7690 Hope to see you there!!!! Paul Richards ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:53:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: Best of Savoy 1981 To whoever asked: I vote YEA. Those concerts were outstanding even by Crimson standards. 'THe Sheltering Sky' and 'Manhattan' (instrumental precursor to 'Neurotica') were literally hair-raising. And Fripp-raising: the guitar 'conversation' in Sheltering Sky at one of the Savoy shows was the only time I've ever seen Fripp rise off his playing stool in musical transport. If Mr. Fripp's reading this, he knows I write truth. How about giving all the other Crimheads a chance to hear these performances? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 23:36:38 -0700 From: Jon Lybrook Organization: Chronosynthesis Productions Subject: California Guitar Trio Update Dear EToids, New June 1997 concert schedule direct from the keyboard of Paul Richards of The California Guitar Trio: 2 Alexandria, VA - Birchmere Theatre 3 Baltimore, MD - Orion Sound Studios 4 Philadelphia, PA - Tin Angel 5 NYC - Bottom Line 6 Boston, MA - Paradise 27 Quebec City, Canada - Spectacle le d'Auteuil 28 Quebec City, Canada - Spectacle le d'Auteuil SPECIAL CONCERT: *June 29* Quebec City, Canada - Pigeonnier Park *** CGT as opening act for John McLaughlin *** I'm also pleased to announce that the official California Guitar Trio Website is now on-line. Visit it at http://www.cgtrio.com/ It contains a growing archive of articles on the history of the band, as well as their musical and literary influences (besides you know who). Thanks for tuning in! - Jon Lybrook ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 00:40:59 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Trey Gunn/California Guitar Trio tour! Hello Friends: I have some really exciting concert information for you lucky folks on the east coast. The Trey Gunn Band and the California Guitar Trio will be touring together on the East Coast (USA) the first week of June 97. The tour dates and locations are as follows. Get your tickets now!!!! June 2 - Alexandria, VA - The Birchmere June 3 - Baltimore, MD - Orion Sound Studios June 4 - Philadelphia, PA - Tin Angel (2 shows) June 5 - New York, NY - Bottom Line (2 shows) June 6 - Boston, MA - Paradise the trey gunn band: trey gunn -- 8-string warr guitar chris cunningham -- 8-string warr guitar tony geballe -- electric guitar bob muller -- tabla and drums The CGT is currently working on their 3rd album and will be going into the studio immediately after this tour to record. At the end of June, the CGT will be performing 3 shows in Quebec City, Canada. June 27th and 28th at Bar Spectacle le d' Auteuil and on June 29th at "Pigeonnier Park" as opening act for John McLaughlin. For more information, please call Catalyst Management, Catharina Masters-Plen at 310-271-7690. This promises to be truly great evenings of music and I can't urge you strongly enough to go. If these events go well, who knows, it could mean more touring later in the year! So support these guys now! Don't forget you can hear soundbites for Trey Gunn and CGT (not to mention League of Crafty Guitarists and the Robert Fripp String Quintet) on our Discipline page at . And if you lose this message, details are on our bulletin board. Also on our bulletin board are the upcoming date for the G3 tour for which Robert Fripp will be opening! To help promote these concerts, The California Guitar Trio will be doing an IRC Chat with The Artist Shop on Wednesday, May 28 at 9pm eastern time. The server will be on channel <#ArtistShop>. I'll see a lot of you there, I'm sure. Full details are on our IRC page . If you need IRC software to participate, you'll find links to three different ones you can download. But please don't wait till the last minute to download and try it out. See you there, Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 97 21:25:42 BST From: Scott Hamrick Subject: Tone/Anglagard Ctao at aol dot com wrote: >As a longtime Crimso enthusiast, I often wonder if I'm the only ETer who >bemoans the shortcomings of TONE in the guitar department of the current >lineup. You're not alone. Fripp's new MIDI-fied "laser beam" sound found on THRaK aTTaK is cool, but nowhere near as good as the spine-tingling Les Paul through-the-HiWatts-turned-up-to-eleven sound featured so brilliantly on tracks like "Asbury Park" and "Prince Rupert's Lament." >. . . Fripp's current looping setup, while >infinitely more flexible, completely lacks the timbral charm of the >original Enoid frippertronics setup. Indeed, analog tape saturation would >seem to have its merits). Yep, blame it on the MIDI. I am just now getting into Fripp's old "Frippertronics" stuff (No Pussyfooting, God Save the Queen), and I find it much more interesting than the sterile, cold "Soundscapes" he's currently producing. >I only wish Fripp and Belew would return to the stomboxes, early Roland guitar >synths, and those horrid JC 120s. Agreed. Belew even said in a recent interview (I think it was in ET) that he misses the guitar technology he and Fripp were using in the '80s. Whatever happened to Audio Verite (or whatever it's called) Mr. Fripp? Give me analog or give me death. ------------------- John Stimson wrote: >First, I would like to respond to a comment that Anglagard was influenced >by King Crimson and is "like Anekdoten". The only Crimson similarity I >hear with Anglagard is the fuzzy guitar tone that Fripp used to use. That's odd I thought the remarkably CLEAN (when do they ever get fuzzy?) guitar tone used by Anglagard was highly similar to that of Genesis' Steve Hackett. Anyway, I think Anglagard's similarities to KC are broader and more subtle than guitar tones, etc. Listen to the violent volume contrasts between the quiet, delicate Mellotron and flute passages and the jarring loud sections on Epilog (how anyone could find this album "disappointing" is mind boggling to me). King Crimson was famous for doing that sort of thing on several albums, especially the early ones. On the surface Anglagard sounds more like a souped-up Genesis, but their approach to the music and the atmosphere they created seems to owe a lot to King Crimson to me. Finally, where on earth is my Epitaph set? I ordered it ages ago. Scott Hamrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 16:06:32 -0600 From: kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) Christopher Jepson wrote: >I also happen to have a taste for music that is >outright weird and bizarre (but still emotionally intelligible). >This is why I like Lizard so much. (I may be one of the few >people who really likes Gordon Haskell's vocals -- I think they >fit the music perfectly.) I'm so glad to see some reappraisal of Lizard--I listened to it again today, after not doing so for several years--and I was struck by some of the delicacy of Fripp's acoustic playing as well as the bizarre carnival arrangements that run through the entire album. "Cirkus" has got to be a definitive Big-Top-As-Nightmare-Trip song, their version of "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite" IMO. Over the (big) top, to be sure. Bill Cormier wrote regarding the "mystery" Crimso instumental from 1982--Nice to hear from someone else who was at that Syracuse show! I have a copy of _Indisciple Mining Rocks_ (the Stonybrook show) and that recording lists the tune in question as "Turkish Tea." There is also an "untitled" instrumental which is really an early version of "The Howler" without words. Maybe this might jog Tony's memory? (Geez, how many of us remember anything we were doing 15 years ago?) Gordon Emory Anderson wrote (regarding Fripp as the Miles of Rock Guitar?): >The problem with this is that Fripp plays "too many damn notes" (as Miles >accused Coltrane of doing). I think a better analogy is to call Fripp the >John Coltrane of Rock Guitar, except there may be two problems with >this. 1.Any one familiar with the level or artistry and impact of John >Coltrane will feel uncomfortable comparing any live human being to >'Trane. I think the analogy with Coltrane is entirely appropriate--the phrasing of Fripp's solos often comes in short sax-like bursts ("Distributed Being" on Eno's _Nerve Net_ is a good example. But Waiitttttt a minute--let's not _deify_ any musicians, jazz or not. Why is Coltrane incomparable? Sure, he was great--but anyone can be compared (successfully or otherwise) to anyone else. >2. Is mere "Rock" a developed enough artform to contain a >comparison like this? (Isn't this like saying "__________ is the >Michelangelo of silly putty") Aw come on, I thought we got over that whole turds-in-the-toilet-bowl thread. Do we have to scroll through all this again? >Let's face it--I love rock and you love rock >and it covers some emotions/human experience that other genres are not well >prepared for. But the blistering cord changes being improvised over in >"Giant Steps" have no equivalent in rock. Sorry. Coltrane wasn't all blistering chord changes, as I'm sure you know. (A Love Supreme is certainly every bit as influential). But if you want Fripp doing blistering chord changes, check out "Groon", some of the boot versions of which I've heard are _very_ jazz-oriented. We don't often get to hear the jazz side of Fripp's playing, but it's there in some of the boots. >But in the e nd, a close >look at Trane and Fripp do yield some interesting comparisons. No dispute there--I'm glad it was raised. Now on to other things-- I recently found a cutout CD at our local Borders, "The Stranglers and Friends Live in Concert," apparently a charity gig to raise defense funds for Hugh Cornwall's 1981 bust--Fripp is on two (or three?) songs, as are Toyah Wilcox, Steve Hillage (Gong, Orb), Nik Turner (Hawkwind), and Peter Hammill. The music is basically early angry new wave, making this prog-studded line-up of special interest. For those interested, it's a release on Hallmark (an English budget label), #302902, and I paid $6.99 for it. Anyone else know about this recording? Finally, Toby, can we ***please please please*** put the whole Sex Pistols is better than/worse than Yes debate to rest in the realm of off-limits topics? (Especially since the tritone topic was relegated there rather quickly, despite the interest of several musicians on this list.) It's getting quite weary...Otherwise, it's always a pleasure to hear from the Worldwide Crimso Contingent! [ And lo, it was done. -- Toby ] Kevin Holm-Hudson It is fun to have fun but you have to know how. --The Cat in the Hat ------------------------------ Date: 21 May 1997 15:08:42 -0700 From: TiM SaLMoN Subject: Six of One... Hello from the LeftCoast. I haven't contributed anything to ET for quite a while, but after reading : "What were those punks thinking anyway?" by Christopher Jepson (ET Digest #373), I decided to comment. Mr. Jepsen writes: >I think all this talk about punks being "leftists" is slightly off the mark. True, there have been many leftist punks (e.g., the Clash and MDC), but there have also been many Nazi punks. Six of One... Remember Christopher, the term "Nazi" means "NATIONAL SOCIALISM," and the last time I checked Socialism was decidedly LEFT. Jepsen goes on: >"Progressive rock, by contrast, was essentially elitist: You had to have virtuoso musicians and thousands of dollars worth of state-of-the-art musical equipment. Punk's great, if temporary, achievement was to reclaim the populist strain in rock." THE BOTTOM LINE While it sounds good on the surface that progressive rock "was essentially elitqist" for its sheer bombast, perceived or otherwise, it is undeniably true that Punk also acquired a certain elitist tinge...or perhaps stain. Furthermore, as was pointed out earlier, much of it was an Brian Epsteinesque contrivance. Such marketing, as with the Sex Pistols, flies in the face of their populist rhetoric. It is also easily observed that Punk was a "gateway" musical form for many would-be musicians. Look at PIL or later Clash/B.A.D. stuff. I think the sort of pseudo-virtue promulgated by the punks that they were rebelling for the greater good of music and for that of the whole world in general is disingenuous. Jepsen: >I think that the intervening years have demonstrated that the musical landscape is spacious enough for both. Indeed. No zero sum here! Jepsen: >"Of course, there is a separate but related issue: The fact that the music industry has, since the 1970s, been more or less dominated by large corporations that are interested in money, not music, and in order to maximize money, tend to pour their resources into established acts making familiar, formulaic music. Unlike progressive rock, these non-musical forces are inherently inimical to populism, and when they become too dominant, active rebellion does make sense. In the mid-70's, many of the "dinosaur" bands being supported by the industry did carry the "progressive" label (Yes, ELP, Pink Floyd), making it easy for the two issues to be blurred." Release, RELEASE! Without going into the workings of the marketplace at great length, I would point out that although these "established acts" may have seemed a good bet at the time to some record company execs based on recent "hits," this logic was often questioned. YES is perhaps the best example of this. I mean, who would have thought that CLOSE TO THE EDGE (featuring a certain Crimson man, btw) or TALES FROM TOPOGRAPHIC OCEANS would be commercial successes? My point here is that so-called Progressive groups were rebelling in their own way. They were not merely churning out what the "suits" wanted, to the exclusion of their "artistic integrity." As you know, this didn't last. ELP's LOVE BEACH (!!! Featuring ANOTHER [former] CrimGuy!) and YES's TORMATO spring to mind...not to mention the entire ASIA catalogue & GTR! But hey, a guy's gotta eat... Tim Salmon, San Francisco. "I'm a Dinosaur...!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:56:57 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Heat of the Moment >From: Bruce Selzler > >You're message spends a great deal of bandwidth chastising >everyones "subjective and pompous" arguments with your own subjective and >pompous arguments. And you even try to support them with worthless >references to record sales, and critical comments from a magazine that >hasn't been relevant in years. Nothing personal but lighten up. Me lighten up? I'm not the one holding Yes aloft as some sort of sacred divinity which only a depraved blasphemer would dare question. If you saw some of the email I received, you might take back your comment. And sorry, but I gotta chuckle when prog-rock devotees complain about something "not being relevant in years." Heh heh. (Though judging from your comments, you don't seem to be as exclusive in your tastes as many others here.) As far as I'm concerned, prog-rock stopped being "relevant" upon the vapid arrival of Asia. Asia was the tombstone (will confusion will be their epitaph?). That's when a waning, watered-down musical movement collapsed altogether into an inward-turning cult. And again, that's not a unique viewpoint. As for wasting bandwidth, I don't see anyone complaining about all those folks who post only to promote their own bands/labels/distribution companies, to offer huge unrequested guitar tablatures or to list extensive tour schedules for artists with only the loosest KC connections. Spread the blame evenly, not just to those who diverge from the accepted ET groupthink. >If you need a review or a top ten >list to tell you what works, then you're missing the point. Well, my point was that the Sex Pistols have a huge critical following, much moreso than Yes. Given all the "Sex Pistols are just NOISE"-type comments, those references seemed very relevant. There didn't seem to be any point to stressing my OWN view on the Sex Pistols and Yes, since all the Yessayers have already ruled me stupid, shallow, "faddist," etc. Thus, I quoted some (er...) higher sources instead. And of course, as I said before, I AM a Yes fan -- just not a Yes fanatic. >We are talking Apples and Oranges here. Especially with the Residents. Hey, EVERYONE is "oranges" when compared to the Residents. ;) >But if we must compare creativity and impact I think I'll still give it >to the Prog rockers. They influence those who make the music. At least >the good ones. Well, true -- prog-rockers do influence younger prog-rockers, if that's what you mean. The cult carries on. Regards, Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:48:53 -0700 From: Michael Tanigawa Subject: RE: A question to the Epitaph Events attenders did anybody ask the reason why "I talk to the wind" , "Moonchild" "Groon" and "Cat food" weren't included in the live box set ? I think the booklet in the Frame By Frame set mentions "I Talk to the Wind" as having been recorded at one of the BBC sessions. However this may be a typo, of which the booklet has no shortage. Mike Tanigawa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 97 11:57:15 EST From: "Mark Jordan" Subject: Satriani, Vai and others. Chris McGrath posted in answer to someone else's query about Joe Satriani. If you listen to Chris's advice you may miss out on something you find that you like. Joe did two fairly good albums "Surfing with the Alien" (world wide number one) and "Flying in a blue dream". He has done others but did not take his style much further than these two. Instrumental guitar rock. The albums are about 60% great, the rest rambling. Maybe you should have a listen in the shop before you buy. DO buy Steve Vai's album Passion and Warfare. It was the guitar album of the decade. It is truly awesome. Other guitarists to check out include Steve Morse/Dixie Dregs and Eric Johnson. These are both incredible musicians and songwriters. If you at all like Jazz then definitely have a listen to Allan Holdsworth. He is so different from anything/anybody else it is amazing. "Metal Fatigue"(more rock), "Secrets" and "Hard Hat Area". If you like forward reaching music you wont be disappointed. Brand X are also awesome. Chris, telling people what not to listen to is really not on. Exposure to all forms/styles of music is what discovery is all about. "Public announcement to save the youth of the world."????? Get real. I mustn't have seen the notice that made you dictator of taste. If you don't like something then fine, but don't tell someone else not to listen to it. Regards to all ETers Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 97 13:09:09 EST From: "Mark Jordan" Subject: Mellotrons Jame wrote in ET no.379 >Anyone out there know how easy or difficult it is to get your hands >on a mellotron, and whether they are hideously expensive or not? Mellotrons were the predessor of the sampler. They used a series of tapes of the various sounds that you wanted to hear and when you pressed a key the tape for that key would be played. They were quite expensive at the time and a headache for road crews to maintain and keep in tune. Imagine the number of little motors running all those tapes. You would be much better off with a modern sampler and you can purchase CD's with samples of old keyboard sounds. Korg (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong) also does a keyboard module that is specifically designed to emulate a lot of old 60's and 70's keyboard sounds. I read a review and it was rated very highly. This would be a much better investment. I've only ever seen one Mellotron in the flesh in 20 years as a musician and that was a long time ago. Regards to all Mark Jordan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 23:45:55 -0400 (EDT) From: SkipandDeb at aol dot com Subject: Re: Steve Vai "dissin' " In a message dated 97-05-21 22:33:40 EDT, you write: << Whatever you do, don't buy a Steve Vai album. This has been a public announcement to save the youth of the world. >> I must take exception to this... Steve Vai is a talented artist. He is an innovator. His music, like KC's, is not for everyone. His technical ability is beyond question, and his music is, to me, enjoyable and stimulating. I understand your dislike of his music. It's _different_! My wife HATES KC. As a matter of fact, she calls the music "talentless and repetitive". Does that make it less enjoyable to me? Should it?? I think no artist should be slammed just because the music is different... after all, I first listened to KC BECAUSE it was so _different_ Take it for what it's worth.... SkipandDeb at AOL dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 01:02:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: re: Rolling Stone and prog Someone claimed in the last issue that Rolling Stone has quote *never* liked prog unquote. This is a dearly held belief among American prog fans, but's it's not quite true. While RS can't be said to have ever gotten behind a prog bandwagon, even in the genre's first early 70's heyday, it *did* run positive, in some cases glowing, reviews of prog albums even into the latter part of the decade (e.g., Yes' Fragile, Close to the Edge, Going for the One; ELP's Works Vol.I) and did do feature stories on the same acts from time to time. This is not to excuse RS' many lamenesses, or its utter lack of interest in prog since then, but if anyone wants to experience the *major* sources of anti-prog screed in the 70's, they'll have to seek out the British tabloid-type music rags of the era (Melody Maker and NME) which set the standards for merciless prog-bashing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 22:46:54 -0800 From: brady at darwin dot com (Bill Brady) Subject: central park 7-1-74 Greetings Crimheads, I had a question about the central park 7-1-74 show. Donald Chin mentioned this show in ET#378 and I was wondering if this is the only KC show from the '73-'74 era that opened with 21st CSM or if ET'ers are aware of other shows where this happened ? Every show I saw during this time period left 21st CSM as the encore number, so what did they play as an encore at the central park show ? On another topic, I've always felt that KC's strength came from change and watching them progress through their many different offerings has truly been a joy for me. I must agree with other ET'ers that Islands and Lizard represent some of KC's best work, yet I find it hard to label any one of their works as better than another. Each stands alone. Anyone who has had the pleasure of hearing Sailor's Tale live will tell you that some of the best Fripp solo's have yet to be commercially released. FbF gave us all an excellent sampling of LTiA/SaBB. KC seemed to thrive by shuffling players, changing styles and pushing into new areas. I don't know whether I like the present KC more or less than the other bands, but I'm reasonably sure that 10 years from now, the KC I'll be listening to will not sound like Vrooom-although we might be talking about resurrecting Thrak in ET#10,000... Frippingly Yours, Bill ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:13:03 +0100 (BST) From: dinosaur Subject: Fripp Soundscapes in London 31st May Hi there. Just to let anyone who didn't know, Robert Fripp is performing live Soundscapes at the Union Chapel, Islington, London from 12.00pm - 6.00pm on Saturday 31st May (got the information from the ET website). I emailed DGM, and they said that it was free, and in aid of the National Austistic Society. I'd be interested to know if any UK-based ETers are planning on going, because I was going to go with a friend, but he can't come, and I'll be on my own otherwise :( Catch you later, James. *--------------------------------------------------------* jAMES bEARD - http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2511/ the university of kent @ canterbury It's only talk. *--------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ From: "M Lehrer" Subject: Thanks to Crimson, Enough about the Sex Pistols Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:14:28 -0400 Hi all: First off, we should all be very thankful that Crimson is as responsive to their listeners as they are. What other band has issued (through commercial channels) as many live recordings as Crimson? None that I can think of. Epitaph is the latest icing on the cake. But remember all the others: B Boom, Thrak Attak, Great Deceiver, and portions from the 1st box set. Don't forget the LPs: USA and the beyond bootleg recording of Earthbound. I listen to lots of other music, but I must give Robert and all of KC lots of credit for issuing all the live stuff. Keep it up, Robert. Second, I know that ET is a forum for Crim-lovers. Therefore, mentioning other bands here is probably sacrilegious. But it's one thing to mention Porcupine Tree (as Ken Brown proudly did), Yes or any other "progressive" band on an ET posting, and quite another to wax eloquent about the Sex Pistols. Come on, folks, you don't have to like Porcupine Tree or any other band for that matter. But hopefully, many of you will acknowledge that at least P-Tree and other progressive groups have a high level of musicianship. In short, they are accomplished musicians. Crimson is comprised of musicians who exist on perhaps the highest plane of musicianship. They are master musicians. Mentioning the Sex Pistols on this site really demeans the works of Crimson and all the other significant progressive groups out there. The Pistols were a goof, they couldn't really play well (in fact, they were awful musicians), and they were basically just trying to be an affront to the world and the music industry. So they made their 15 minute statement and can now shut up. It's cool that ET is a forum for Crimson. Obviously, other relevant music should creep in here. Crimson lovers should get into all significant sound out there; I'm sure the guys in Crimson wouldn't want us to be one dimensional in our tastes. But let's not talk about insignificance. Other wise, next posting will see someone analyzing rap or country music here. This is a Crimson site. Keep it relevant. It is a holy place. M Lehrer 89 degrees in the shade ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:16:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Cervero Subject: Wetton in SF I caught John Wetton's acoustic performance, accompanied by a keyboardist, at the Great America Music Hall in San Francisco last night. It was an stellar performance, and a real treat for any Crimson enthusiasts of the '72-74 era. Wetton played four pieces from the Larks-Bible-Red period -- Book of Saturday, Night Watch, Easy Money, and Starless. It was sort of like hearing the Lark's era Crimson "unplugged". The Music Hall is an intimate venue, with a stunningly ornate, Baroque-like interior and absolutely fantastic acoustics. John seemed to be a bit taken aback with the setting, commenting at the very beginning when he hit the stage -- "wow, we don't usually get to play in posh places like this!". The show and music were par excellent. While there were only some 200 in attendence, the audience more than made up for the small numbers with enthusiasm. There was a lot of dialogue and audience exchange throughout, some of it quite homorous (e.g., after playing the Asia tune "The Heat of the Moment", Wetton commented, "another crappy song from the 80s" to quite an audience chuckle). Book of Saturday and Starless are always moving ballads, though for me the evening's highlights were Night Watch and Easy Money (or EZ $, as written on the set list). Both were stunning versions I hadn't heard before (and yes, I've amassed lots of "unauthorized" live Crimson shows from this era, with all due respect to Mr. Fripp's admonishments to refrain from doing so). Wetton's vocals on Night Watch were powerful, and the guitar riffs, sometimes accompanied note for note by the keyboard, were fluid and quite polished. While no Fripp, Wetton's guitar skills are impressive, blending both rythm sections and lead riffs, quite often with a few thumping bass lines thrown in. Fripp has mentioned early Crimson had to slow down Night Watch when performing live because Wetton often stumbled trying to sing so fast. Thus I was surprised the song was performed at a pretty fast clip, and Wetton breezed through it with an absolutely stunning vocal performance. My favorite piece of the night, however, was EZ$, featuring funky acoustical, bluesy riffs, with some of the lead choruses sung acappella. He introduced it as "the dirty version", complete with fudge licking. John spent about a half hour after the show chatting with around 10 of us, mostly Crim-heads. He really opened himself up and seemed quite pleased with what had just taken place. I'll just mention a few Crimson-relevant things that were said. Regarding his contributiqon to David Cross's forthcoming album, Wetton mentioned he sings on Exiles and that Bobby Fripp also performs on the album. However, the three did not play together. He said he and Robert discussed this and decided it wouldn't be such a great idea. Someone then ask him who his favorite band of all time is and his greatest musical influences -- he seemed to try to skirt the question, waffling a bit, but then ended by saying "there's only one band I ever wanted to be in -- and that's King Crimson"....YES!!!. I asked him why Ian McDonald wouldn't be joining him at ProgFest in LA (which was rumored to be the case, based on postings at the Wetton web page, Chasing the Dragons), and he said Ian couldn't get away from New York. I then asked him about McDonald joining him at the Bottom Line in New York on Tuesday, and he responded, "oh yes, there's a good possibility". Neither he nor Martin, his keyboardist, were absolutely certain Ian would be joining the show, but it sounded like the odds were pretty good -- according to Martin, part of the problem is that Wetton performs mostly in F flat, a difficult key for a flutist; if Ian joins them, they'd play ItCotCK in D, which isn't Wetton's favorite. I asked John whether they would do "I Talk to the Wind", "In the Court", etc., and he said he frankly didn't know, it all depends on what unfolds during rehearsals the afternoon before the show. Based on his performance in San Francisco, I'd say the odds are pretty good that some older Crimson favorites will be added if Ian accompanies the band. Wetton's show impressed me enough that I'm off to San Diego's Brick-by-Brick to catch Friday's full (electric) band performance, followed by ProgFest.... and who knows, maybe on to the Bottom Line. One last item. Our teammate Max from Italy asked in ET#379 about why Moonchild, I Talk to the Wind, and Cat Food were left out of the Epitaph box set. In New York, I asked Robert whether Crimson ever played Moonchild live (one of my all-time favorite Crimson tunes, a minority position I'm sure) -- and he responded "no" but couldn't remember why..... (I always thought the transition from the somewhat playfully surreal Moonchild to the grandioloquent, Mellotron-laden 'In the Court' was the first album's high point). I Talk to the Wind was performed at the Chesterfield show, as was ItCotCK, both of which were nixed on the fourth CD of the Epitaph box set. Chesterfield has long been available on bootlegs that contain the full show -- I Talk to the Wind (Oil Well, an Italian boot), Dead Fucking Bollocks (Japanese boot), and the Get Thy Bearing boot. I discussed this with David Singleton in London. He said he and Robert cut out both I Talk to the Wind and In the Court from the Chesterfield show of the boxset because the Mellotron was out of the tune, and the tape recordings appeared a half key too slow. I think this was a mistake -- the performances of both songs on boots are very strong, in fact I would say the highlights of the show; my admittedly untrained ears can't really detect much difference in the mellotron sound at Chesterfield between any of the songs. And of course, the reason Cat Food doesn't appear in the Epitaph box set is that it hadn't been written yet -- this had to await the arrival of the jazz-rocker himself, Keith Tippet. (By the way, one of the shouted request for John Wetton's encore last night was Cat Food, to which Mr. Wetton responded, "perhaps another time".) ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #380 ********************************