Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #378 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 378 Tuesday, 20 May 1997 Today's Topics: Take out the vocals? '69 reunion Comparisons & Contrasts, Etc. Re: Possible new 21CSM Cover by Voivod! CGT/Trey Gunn tour information Re: Satriani Epitaph Playback ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Wed, 14 May 97 01:09:08 -0700 From: 12.4::brianmc at cs dot man dot ac dot uk (Brian McNeil) Subject: Take out the vocals? In ET#375 Mike Holst has taken a tin opener to another potential can of worms, i.e. whether or not vocals are required. Hmmmm, can't say that I'd prefer any KC music without them and I feel that the music has been written with them as an integral part of each piece. Admittedly, there probably is a large number of people who'll just ignore a band that doesn't have vocals (MH's "Joe Audient-Fan" perhaps). However, where I take issue with his post and strongly disagree with his opinion (which he is entitled to - as I to mine) is- >>music is art, and my own definition of art is communicating without >>words (I;E. painting, photography etc.). Simply put, good music >>doesn't need explaining. Sorry, but I disagree in two ways with this and would suspect that other ETers may well do so too:- Firstly, this definition of art excludes poetry along with lyrics, the two of which are inextricably linked. IMHO, art can be any media form which can evoke an emotional response which the audience would seek to recapture. MH's definition seems way too narrow. Secondly, do lyrics actually explain the music? Perhaps he actually meant 'justify' rather than 'explain'. If that's so Mike then I can agree on a lot of grounds, there is a hell of a lot of pop music which is a drum machine and synths crafted round some innane words. Vocals are, as I understand it, just one person's interpretation of the music in a poetic form which fits the musical pattern. Isn't it rather rare for the vocals to actually explain anything, let alone the music? I'm sure many musicians would agree with the opinion that vocals aren't needed, that in many cases they are there to make music more accessible. If, as I hope most ETers (and RF?) would agree, it brings KC's music to a wider audience without compromising the artistic integrity, then it is a valid artistic statement. Another of my favourite artists felt lyrics were not needed but were required to reach a wider audience and have his music support him. Faced with this problem he turned his vocals into biting social commentary and satire thus producing more accessible music as an enticement to getting people to listen to his instrumental works (yes, FZ - now to play at the Proms). In the same way, how many of us would have listened to Soundscapes without RF having built his reputation with music with lyrics? Thanks for reading, Brian McNeil brian_mcneil at rossinc dot com P.S. Mike, why read ET if you don't like words? (-; ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:49:05 +0100 From: Tim Pickard Subject: '69 reunion This is actually my first post, although I've been reading ET for some months now. The May '97 edition of 'WIRE' magazine (UK) has a 6 page article/interview with Robert Fripp from which I quote: 'There are rumours that the original group might play together again. Fripp gives it his blessing. "The music is there to be played," he says ... he doesn't personally want to get involved in a reunion. He even suggested another guitarist who could fill in for him, which seems to have effectively nixed the idea.' So it seems to be Fripp not Lake who is agin the idea. Personally the whole idea seems rather pointless to me, if these guys want to work together again, fine, they should go and do something new not try to recreate 1969. ------------------------------ From: Ted White Subject: Comparisons & Contrasts, Etc. Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:07:09 -0400 Brian Thomson (374) reports on a new cover of "21st Century Schizoid Man" by Voivod, a Canadian trio. That reminds me that nearly twenty years ago (1979) the Canadian heavy metal group, April Wine, also produced a listenable cover of that piece. And, while we're discussing covers, does anyone remember two early-70s LPs by Mike Quatro? He was/is Suzi and Patti's brother, and played keyboards. His albums were somewhat progressive and included Crimson covers - unusual at the time. Pete Sinfield: Those who want to know who he's been writing lyrics for should check out the CD reissue of his Manticore album, STILL. It's on Voiceprint now, as STILLUSION, with two added tracks (apparently recorded for a never-finished second album). Check out his updated notes. (I'd quote 'em, but I'm at work and the CD is at home.) By the bye, I'd highly recommend the album to eters: several ex-Crimson musicians - mainly Mel Collins - play on it, Greg Lake shares the vocals on one track, Ian MacDonald co-wrote one track, and "Song of the Sea Goat" is a genuine gem! Ken Brown (375) bemoans the lack of a "new interesting style in the 90s." I thought Grunge was the style of the 90s, and some groups out of Seattle have demonstrated some interesting influences. Faith No More, for instance, has obviously listened to both Genesis and Crimson, and touches of each have popped up in their music. Ken also talks about "the BEST band to emerge from any music form in the 90s," referring to Porcupine Tree. Frankly, I don't agree; Ptree strikes me as a grafting of Ozrik Tentacles to old Pink Floyd, and its music is pretty flabby and insubstancial. My nominee for the best band of the 90s is the Hungarian band, After Crying. Hailing from the land of Bartok, this group has released five albums in this decade, each and every one superb, and each with its own tone and character. I haven't been this excited with any "new" band in many years, and I urge you all to give them a listen. This is category-defying music, sprawling across rock, jazz and classical (using cellos as solo instruments!). The first album ("Overground Music") is in English. The rest are in Hungarian. It doesn't matter. Eb certainly has a thing for the Sex Pistols, doesn't he? I have only a few comments: 1. Punk didn't start with the Sex Pistols; it was here six years earlier, as a name and a style (back to garage basics). 2. Rolling Stone has NEVER liked progressive rock, and never liked Crimson, slagging every 70s album as it was released. I think as an editorial policy the magazine has been tone-deaf to ambitious music. Who cares what they think of Yes, OR the Sex Pistols? Who died and made RS God? 3. The Sex Pistols' influences were mostly non-musical; they had very little influence on music itself, either then or now, since they were barely ept at playing their instruments. 4. What kind of a straw man is this comparison/contrast between Yes & the Sex Pistols? The fact that I like Stackridge, say, doesn't mean I like Crimson less. There is room for many styles of music, and the more one can appreciate, the better off one is. I'd like to offer my thanks to the many of you who made it to London or NYC (or both) and gave us postings on the Epitaph Playback Experience. Although I've met many from the original band individually, I would have been thrilled to see them all in one place. Reading about it was almost as good. Finally, I'd like to pass on news about the death of Lou Stathis. Lou was an excellent writer/critic who wrote about music for a variety of venues. His first professional appearance was as a music/media critic for FANTASTIC magazine in 1978. In 1980 he began a rock column in HEAVY METAL (the adult comic), which mutated into a Dossier Section that he edited in the early 80s. Later he edited HIGH TIMES and REFLEX (a music magazine from the same publisher). When he died he was an editor at DC Comics/Vertigo. He died at 44 of complications from a brain tumor, on Sunday, May 4th, 1997. He was a good friend, and a good friend to music. Many of us will miss him. Ted White (Dr. Progresso) ------------------------------ From: Matt Walsh Subject: Re: Possible new 21CSM Cover by Voivod! Date: Wed, 14 May 97 12:52:00 PDT >>I've only seen one report on this, in a music magazine (possibly MOJO). I >>haven't been able to otherwise confirm it. I'm pretty sure it isn't on >>their new album "Negatron", so it might be a b-side or something from a >>compilation. I posted to ET about this a long time ago. I read it in the College Music Journal many years ago, and also asked Snake (Voivod's former lead singer) when I interviewed him years ago. Voivod was going to cover 21CSM for their album "The Outer Limits", but Their label said no as they thought it was too obscure. They were then going to do a Van Der Graaf Generator cover which the record company didn't even know who they were, so they settled for Pink Floyd's "The Nile Song". If people are interested I can dig up the article in CMJ and type the part about 21CSM. Then again, maybe with a new label Voivod is considering covering it again. I think Voivod would be the PERFECT band to cover that song. For those of you who have not heard them before, and can stand "metal", I highly reccomend picking up their album "Nothingface", it's a gem and as hard as it is to believe, their cover of "Astronomy Domine" is better than Pink Floyd's. They also do a song that reminds me a lot of a track off ELP's "Brain Salad Surgery" (Tacatto?) The last 3 Voivod albums with Snake (Nothingface, Angel Rat, Outer Limits) are very progressive rock influenced (Pink Floyd, ELP, KC, Rush...) and I highly reccomend them. Matt Walsh mattw at smginc dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:16:55 -0500 From: Murray Kopelberg Subject: CGT/Trey Gunn tour information The California Guitar Trio and the Trey Gunn Band will be on tour together on the East Coast (USA) the first week of June 97. The tour dates and locations are as follows. Get your tickets now!!!! June 2 - Alexandria, VA - The Birchmere June 3 - Baltimore, MD - Orion Sound Studios June 4 - Philadelphia, PA - Tin Angel June 5 - New York, NY - Bottom Line June 6 - Boston, MA - Paradise For more information, please call Catalyst Management, Catharina Masters-Plen at 310-271-7690 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:50:05 -0700 From: Chris McGrath Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Defense Systems Subject: Re: Satriani >to say, I haven't ben able to get the smile off since. My main reason for >writing this is because I know nothing about Satriani and am curious as to >whether my fellow ETers consider him worthy of checking out, and if so, >what albums would be a good starting point? I have two discs because at one time I kinda liked what he did. Now, I just think he's at the top of a tired genre, so I never listen to them anymore. Save your money and buy up the Crimson catalog. I recommend starting with "Starless and Bible Black" and "Discipline". If you want something other than KC, try Don Caballero or email me for a list of indie favs that are doing something important. Whatever you do, don't buy a Steve Vai album. This has been a public announcement to save the youth of the world. Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 May 97 02:26:34 UT From: "donald chin" Subject: Epitaph Playback A Young Person's Guide to the Epitaph Playback in New York City: First Impression: I have seen Fripp with The League of Crafties, and I have seen Ian McDonald perform at the Bosnian Orphans' Benefit in NYC in 1995 (he did ITCOTCK w/ a young vocalist and also played flute with Justin Hayward for "Nights in White Satin") and Michael Giles looks very much like he does on the "McDonald and Giles" cover, but I was stunned at how large Greg Lake is. Perhaps he and Chris Squire had a contest for the English bassist whose body-shape changed the most? The Band and Q&A: Greg Lake remarking that "Schizoid Man" was done in one take, and that the entire album was done in 10 days, to which Fripp responded that it took only 7 days, and Lake laughingly asked "What was I doing for the other 3 days?"...... Fripp saying that "In the Wake of Poseidon" was half of a King Crimson album, and that the other half was "McDonald & Giles".....the use of the Mellotron on Ian's part was an attempt to get a bigger sound than the typical guitar, bass, and drums, to which Fripp jokingly noted that the use of a Mellotron did nothing to further the cause of Giles Giles and Fripp. My personal exchanges with the group: Fripp: I said that I hoped there would be more forthcoming boxed sets, to which he replied that "all we need is time". I asked if possibly the June 1, 1974 Central Park show might someday be released, to which he smiled and said "yes we have that one". I replied that the improv from that show was one of the most beautiful pieces of music I have ever heard. He smiled, perhaps in agreement. (For those who have, I'm sure you agree?) Giles: I asked if perhaps there might be a "McDonald & Giles II" to which he replied "we've been talking, so you never know." I realize I was probably the umpteenth person to ask him that. McDonald: I asked him if he might be joining John Wetton at his upcoming Bottom Line show, to which Ian replied that he hadn't been invited, but that if he was he would certainly be happy to, and that the show had been moved back to May 27, as if he had been paying attention to it. I would have liked to ask Ian more questions, such as what is he currently up to, did "McDonald & Giles" ever play live, what was it like playing sax on T. Rex's "Bang a Gong", and why Justin Hayward didn't come out for the grand finale at the Bosnian Orphan's show? Lake: Oddly enough, I really couldn't think of anything to say to him, perhaps because he seem a bit tired and was constantly talking to a man standing at his side, perhaps his manager. I think I mumbled that "I really enjoy your music". I suppose now I would have liked to ask him regarding some of his sarcastic comments regarding Fripp in the FbyF booklet. "What Robert says is a lot of shit a lot of times." In the back of my mind I half expected Fripp, a la William Shatner in the famous SNL Star Trek parody, to ask us Crimheads why on earth did we stand in line to meet a band who released only one album 28 years ago? It was only one album! Get a life! Donald Chin dc30 at msn dot com ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #378 ********************************