Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #377 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 377 Tuesday, 20 May 1997 Today's Topics: Thwack! Celine Dion/Peter Sinfield Re: Reunification Re: Islands Sleeve Re: Epitaph in New York Vrooom bass tab Gunn/CGT in NYC 6/5 Re: Elephant Talk Digest #374 PS (more bollocks) One More Bland Nightmare prog vs punk ,or punk was influenced by prog ?what ? Epitaph Re: Myopia "The Third Star" review KC reunion? Re: Brand X David Cross, Peter Hammill ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- From: David Kirkdorffer Subject: Thwack! Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:41:04 -0400 OK While playing possibly the world's most confusing board game -- Cosmic Encounter -- a game that is at once complex, random and totally unpredictable in a very THRaK-like manner, conversation drifted to music.... It turns out, back in the 80's one of the women playing CE was once in a band called THWACK! Apparently, everyone's "instrument" was a wet towel. So Adrian, (if you're reading this) come tour-time maybe you can give up on the power-tools for a while and take to snapping a wet red towel to start and stop the nightly improv? Or -- in a slightly more perverse universe -- imagine the cross-over of these two bands.... "King Crimson - THWaK. 56'39" of songs about love, dying, redemption and mature guys in towels that get erections." -Robert Fripp THWaK 1. A sudden and precisely directed impact moving from intention and commitment, in service of a wet towel 2. The sound of 117 wet towels almost striking the same chord simultaneously. David Kirkdorffer ------------------------------ From: Bradley Stewart Cook Subject: Celine Dion/Peter Sinfield Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:47:42 -0500 (CDT) wrote: >I just picked up the recent Celine Dion CD and one of the songs had a >Pete Sinfield listed as a coauthor. I wonder........ This is indeed THE Pete Sinfield...and I read somehwere that he was very proud of writing this song for the Queen of Cheese. here is a slightly humorous Sinfield quote from the booklet to the Eno/Sinfield spoken word collaboration "In a Land of Clear Colours" ' has recently taken to writing only Rock and Roll and Country and Western songs...when asked why replied "I started out on a limb and I've been trying to get back to the tree ever since." ' DigMe Brad bradcook at tamu dot edu -- End of included mail. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:21:18 -0400 From: alan s cohen Subject: Re: Reunification Personally I don't ever believe that there will be a reunion of the original Crimson members. The energy and connections that made those 5 special in 1969 have certainly changed in the 28 years since then. Crimson is about the next step, not nostalgia. It will never happen unless those 5 can get together and do something that is current and unique. Just my opinion. Alan *------------------------------------------------------------------------------- i000371 sends (alan cohen)... ------------------------------ From: "Dave Lane" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:19:11 -0400 Subject: Re: Islands Sleeve Keith Burns wrote: > P.S. Was fascinated to hear at the London Epitaph playback that > a large chunk of "The Letters" comes from the previously unreleased > "Drop In", and that the intro to "Exiles" began life as "Mantra". Not only that, but the Plumpton and Chesterfield improvs on discs 3 and 4 are both based on a theme that became "Happy Family" on "Lizard". --Dave ------------------------------ From: "Dave Lane" Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:49:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Epitaph in New York murkie wrote: [snippertronics] > overall, it was well worth the drive, even just to see giles, > anderson and lake and say "thank you" to all four of the boys. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Right instrument (one of them, anyway), wrong last name. I'm sure it was just a Freudian slip. --Dave ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:21:00 -0700 (PDT) From: George Korein Subject: Vrooom bass tab Here is Vrooom bass tab. I recommend you open it with notepad. [[ VROOOM.TXT : 2311 in VROOOM.TXT ]] Jonathan Korein To: toby at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: VROOOM bass tab Here is VROOOM transcribed for bass by George Korein, who learned the song from a guitar magazine transcription. Figure the rhythms out from the recording... I'm just writing the notes. Intro: G:------------------------------ D:---2---3---------4---5----- A:-----------2---3---------6-- E:------------------------------ Pickup: G:--------------------- D:--------------------- A:--------------------- E:---0---1---2---3-- A section: G:------------------------------ D:------------------------------ A:-------1---2------------------ E:--3-3---------3---3---1---2--- Repeat a lot with occasional variations. Variation A: G:------------------------------ D:------------------------------ A:-------1---2------------------ E:--3-3---------3---3---/12\---- Variation B: G:------------------------------ D:------------------------------ A:-------1---2------------------ E:--3-3---------3---0---1---2--- B section: G:------------------------------- D:------------------------------- A:---7-7---7-7----7-7-4-5-6--- E:-------------------------------- For power, you can play the low E in unison with the high E. Repeat 3 times, then play a C and let it ring a bit, and then resume the A section. I am really not sure what happens here, but what I just suggested usually sounds OK. After a bit... G:----------------- D:----------------- A:----------------- E:---8---8---8---(keep playing for two measures) G:----------------------------------------- D:----------------------------------------- A:---7---7---7---7----9----9-9---9---10---- E:----------------------------------------- Bass Solo Section 1 G:----13^15^13----------------------- D:------------------12-11---12------ A:--------------------------------- E:---------------------------------- G:----------------------15-------- D:---------------11^13------14--- A:---9-11-13-------------------- E:-------------------------------- G:---------12----17--17---15---12^13^12-------- D:----------------------------------------15-- A:---10--------------------------------------- E:-------------------------------------------- G:-----------------15^17----------------- D:----14^15--17------------14---15---- A:---------------------------------------------- E:---------------------------------------------- G:----------------12--------------------- D:----13---15---------------12-------- A:----------------------13-------------- E:---------------------------------------- G:-----------------18^20--------------------- D:----17^18--20-------------17--18---17---- A:------------------------------------------------ E:------------------------------------------------ The next four notes are actually stick notes an octave down. If you have a five-string, use it. G:-------------------- D:--1--2---3--4------- A:-------------------- E:-------------------- Then resume main riff, then section B. Section B this time goes straight into the "after a bit" section, which is a little bit different this time. After a Bit 2: G:-------------------------------------------- D:-------------------------------------------- A:---------------------------------------7--9-- E:--8-(play for almost two measures)-9-------- G:---------------- D:---------------- A:--10--9--7------- E:-------------8--- Bass Solo Section 2: G:---------------------------------- D:--13^15^13------------------- A:-----------------12--11--12--- E:---------------------------------- G:---------------------------------13---- D:----------------------------15---------- A:--------------------11^13----------------- E:---- 9--11--13------------------------- G:------------------------------17--19--21---- D:-----12--17--15--17--19-------------------- A:----------------------------------------------- E:----------------------------------------------- G:--20--------------------------------20--19---- D:------20--18--17--------17--18/20------------ A:-------------------18----------------------- E:------------------------------------------- G:-----------18--16------------------------- D:--18---18------------19---18--15--16------- A:------------------------------------------- E:------------------------------------------- G:-----------13-----------------11----------- D:--14--16-------------12--14-------------11- A:----------------14-----------------12------ E:------------------------------------------- G:----------------12^14---------------19^21-- D:---10--12--14-----------18^19--21---------- A:------------------------------------------- E:------------------------------------------- G:---------------- D:---18--19--18--- A:---------------- E:---------------- Outro: G:-------------------------- D:-------------------------- A:--1--2----------3--4------ E:---------1--2----------5-- G:-------------------------- D:-------------------------- A:--3--4----------5--6------ E:---------3--4----------7-- G:-------------------------- D:-------------------------- A:--5--6----------7--8------ E:---------5--6----------9-- For marine coda, just keep descending chromatically from C. When you run out of room, go up an octave. Ends on a C. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:11:41 -0400 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: Gunn/CGT in NYC 6/5 Hi all Just announced: 6/5 Tray(their spelling--not mine)Gunn California Guitar Trio The Bottom Line (West 4th Street at Mercer St.) 2 shows--7:30 and 10:30 PM $15.00 That's all CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. -- J.G. Bennett Catch "Forever Knight" on the Sci-Fi Channel every Monday-Thursday at 9PM and 1AM, EDT. -- Lucien LaCroix ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:58:00 -0700 From: Eb Subject: PS (more bollocks) I just re-looked at that Rolling Stone listing their best albums from 1967-1987. In it, they say that Never Mind The Bollocks sold a far-from-shabby 575,000 copies in the States. And remember, those figures are 10 years old, so add at least a couple of hundred-thousand more. Anyway, I think that's enough to discount the earlier "the Sex Pistols never sold very well" statement. I think Yes would be quite happy to sell 775,000 albums today. Eb ------------------------------ Subject: One More Bland Nightmare Date: Tue, 13 May 97 19:12:34 -0700 From: Bruce Selzler >Enough. So anyway, any/all of you are perfectly welcome to prefer Yes over >the Sex Pistols. Just don't give me this pompous "har-dee-har-har/you must >be a comedian" garbage for thinking otherwise. My view is far from unusual. >And in case you're wondering, yes, I DO like King Crimson more than the Sex >Pistols. And Genesis, for that matter. The difference is: I realize that >liking KC and Genesis more than the Pistols is my own opinion -- and not >really a popular viewpoint, overall. This has gotten a bit out of hand, however I couldn't resist a couple of points. You're message spends a great deal of bandwidth chastising everyones "subjective and pompous" arguments with your own subjective and pompous arguments. And you even try to support them with worthless references to record sales, and critical comments from a magazine that hasn't been relevant in years. Nothing personal but lighten up. My point, and I think that of others, is that trends, record sales, and critical reviews are generally for sheep. Who gives a rip? The important thing about music is that it works. The Sex Pistols music worked. No problem. The punk "fad"? So what? Yes music works. Musically, philosophically, artistically. Same with Crimso. Thank God we still have them, because they would certainly never be signed today. The fact that they aren't a fad driven phenomenon doesn't devalue the art. And for someone who really cares and listens to the music, the art is the bottom line. If you need a review or a top ten list to tell you what works, then you're missing the point. Again, I liked the Pistols, I also like the Dead Kennedy's, The Germs, The Circle Jerks and the Residents. And of course, the Ramones pretty much did it better than everybody. We are talking Apples and Oranges here. Especially with the Residents. But if we must compare creativity and impact I think I'll still give it to the Prog rockers. They influence those who make the music. At least the good ones. Leave the music rags and the faddists for the sheep. They're fun, but the musicians are the real change makers. - Sez **************** Visit @Music on Talk City +===+ o +===+ THE ROAD | | /|\ | | http://www.talkcity.com/atmusic/ GOES ON |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| FOREVER.... |___| / \ |___| IRC: chat.talkcity.com **************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:54:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Roberto Galvez Subject: prog vs punk ,or punk was influenced by prog ?what ? >Also, its interesting that you seem to think that the Sex Pistol all too >brief carreer has more value than the entire Yes catalog. On the other >side of that coin, there is more emotion, and balls-to-the wall rock on >Gates of Delirium than the whole Pistols catalog. And frankly the majority >of the Yes catalog holds up a lot better than the Pistols. I still like >Never Mind the Bollocks though. The discussions around punk vs prog rock won't end ,but what it's true, about the specific example of the Pistols,is that Van Der Graaf's Peter Hammill was a direct influence to John Lydon (aka Johhny Rotten).Lydon has mentioned Hammill,Cpt Beefheart,Can and Syd Barrett among his influences. I recommend to hear Peter Hammill's 'Nadir Big Chance' .The title song (published in 1974) is very similar to 'Anarchy in the uk'.Furthermore, in the sleeve notes ,Hammill says they're 'punk songs' (before british punk came !). Hammill and VDGG would be the missing link between prog and punk rock. Cheers, Roberto. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:34:15 -0400 (EDT) From: ASchulberg at aol dot com Subject: Epitaph Just bought "Epitaph" this afternoon. Spent quite a bit of time looking at the booklet and the entire packaging which is outstanding. THRaKaTTaK was just the start of showing us what DGM can do; this mini-box is wonderfully done and I recommend it to everyone. One gripe: Mr. Fripp, I'm getting older, sir, and some of the type is rather on the wee side. Will need a magnifying glass to read the 1969 bio sketches. Hope your eyes are in better shape than mine. That's all I can comment on at this time since I just got home and have only now popped the first cd on the player. Sound quality appears to be pretty good considering the vintage and the recording equipment. More later. Arnie Schulberg ASchulberg at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:31:11 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Myopia >From: "Brown, Ken" > >I listen to today's >music on the radio and I hear nothing lasting or interesting. While prog >was interesting in 70 and New Wave was interesting in the 80s, there as >been no new interesting style in the 90s. there are no popular bands >taking chances that the bands took back in the 60/70/80. Its all >disposable, its hard to tell one band from another, nor does it really >matter. Notice how much more "absolutely" Ken states his viewpoints than me. He accuses ME of being "always right," and then he makes careless blanket dismissals like this, based only on what he gleans from MTV and commercial radio? Blah. Yeah, yeah, the '90s suck except for prog-rock. OK fine, you bet. The bottom line: Ken is willing to dig into the prog underground to seek out interesting bands, but not willing to dig anywhere else. I mean, I don't hear an awful lot of music on radio that I like either, yet I own about 125 albums which were released in 1996 (none of them strictly prog except THRaKaTTaK). Hmm...maybe many of these were never played on radio? >'Never Mind the Bollocks' never sold well. Anyone have any stats on this? I'd be surprised if the album hasn't reached Gold status in the US by now. And just how many albums has Ptree sold? >It was the >idea of the Pistols that changed things and not the LP itself. There's some truth to that, but then again, there's those five-star reviews. And the Pistols' music is highly influential today, regardless of what Sid Vicious carved into his chest with a razor. >And lets be >truthful here without the Ramones there would be no Pistols. And of course, the Ramones are a very important band also. >I would think >the worst selling Yes LP sold more copies then Never Mind ever did. If you're talking about Nirvana's Nevermind, you MUST be kidding. >1) Prog is still vital music entity that survives and flourish despite the >major record companies ignoring. Interesting grammar. And if it "flourishes," then why are the major record companies ignoring it? Oh yeah, I forgot -- it's a conspiracy.... >2) Its hard to put significance on how certain recording affect the industry >as a whole and where their place in history will be. Only time will tell and >I don't think 20 years is enough time. Although we have had Symphonic Yes, >do you think we will ever have Symphonic Pistols? In my book, Symphonic Yes and Symphonic Pistols are equally stupid, exploitative ideas. Do you really take that Symphonic Yes album to be a sign of Yes' importance to history? Or is it just some opportunistic record label and orchestra looking for a way to reap some mainstream CD sales, using a rock band whose music happens to be complex enough to be adaptable? >4) Ptree is the group of the 90s, without a doubt in my mind this is the >BEST band to emerge from any music form in the 90s. Go and buy 'Signify' and >discover the truth. "Discover the truth," eh? Sorry, I'm just not willing to grant you oracle status. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:51:00 -0700 (PDT) From: George Korein Subject: "The Third Star" review I got the "The Third Star" for $5. There is a definite sound on this album. It is hard to describe, but it has a lot of Tablas and melodies that sound somewhat Indian but with an American influence. In parts of Dziban, it even sounds funky. Another facet of the sound is that NOTHING is in 4/4. Sometimes that is good, sometimes that is really annoying. Song-by-Song: Dziban: This is a really cool song. From his Warr Guitar, Gunn gets Stick-like sounds, Belew/Fripp ambient-swell sounds, guitar sounds, and some really strange heavy distortion. The main theme of the song is tapped and Stick-like, but there is a part with chords and a quiet, somber interlude. Short and sweet. Symbiotic: This the only real rock song on this album. I really like the music to this song. It begins with a heavy prog beat in 7, and has a heavy, distorted chorus, as well as eerie tracks of whispering. Toyah Wilcox's vocal, however, leaves something to be desired... though she has her moments, most of the song she is squealing and screeching. Arrakis: I don't like this song. Major noodling. It is hard to explain why, but this song is just not cool in my book. Sirrah: This is good. It is the only one on a Chapman stick. Has a very Indian sound (major Tablas). Lots of infinite-sustain lead. The Third Star: Good, but not very exciting. Peaceful and lullaby like. In Italian. Good singing. Acquiring Canopus: This one and the next one have Mastelleto. These, besides Symbiotic, are the most rocking songs on the album. I have heard that Mastelleto is famous for being solid and never deviating from the groove, but here he takes a wacky Brufordish approach and goes nuts, playing in different tempos and stuff. Kaffalhidjama: I know I spelled that wrong. (I don't have the album in front of me) This one starts slow, and I wish it stayed that way, but instead, it suddenly goes into some fast, kinky time signature (I think Gunn can't write in 4/4). More wackyness from Mastelleto. Yad Al-Gawza: This one has the drummer (Bob Muller) playing cluster flutes. I don't know what they are, but they sound eerie. I e-mailed trey (his e-mail address is included in the album: trey at aol dot com) asking what they were and he hasn't responded. This song has lots of Frippertronicish ambience. No drums, no riffs, just eerie sounds. Someone said in a post that 1999 sounds like a moment of terrifying reallization from a horror movie. This sounds like totally like that. This song is so spooky... Kuma: By the time I got to this song, I felt like I had already heard it. I don't like this one. Indiera: I don't like this song much. It has a singer named Serpentine howling like some strange beast. At first you don't even know it is vocals. It is definetly worth ;istening to once, however, just to say, "Wow. Someone has the guts to do that in a mic." The ending has some cool Warr Guitar strumming. Overall: 3 1/2 out of 5 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:45:18 -0400 From: dogbones at worldnet dot att dot net Subject: KC reunion? Hello Hippies! :) I have mixed feelings in the debate over whether a KC Mark I reunion is desireable. I fully understand the qualms of those who point to the less-than-inspiring attempts of other bands. I believe, however, that if any group of musicians could make it work, Mr. Fripp et al certainly can. From the reaction to the comments at the HMV event, I'd guess many of you agree. I hope they would: - Create and produce, rather than recreate and... produce the same stuff over again. - Take the time to rebuild a group dynamic - Whatever they do, enjoy themselves in their creation! As for time constraints, um... maybe they can do it in 8 days again? :P What single event initially hooked me on KC? Watching a TV performance in the Discipline era. Four incredible musicians looking like they *loved* what they were doing. Has anybody noticed that every time somebody mentions RF's answer to the reunion question, it's different? Could it simply be a case of mass delusion? RF coughed and asked for water, and all the Krimheads thought he said "We start recording in June." ?? :) Peace Andrew Lang New York ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 02:45:04 -0400 (EDT) From: MrBERWELL at aol dot com Subject: Re: Brand X >Doug Liles >dug at multipro dot com >I can't directly link King Crimson with Brand X but Robert and Percy Jones >were on the same Eno CD once. And Bill Bruford was also one of the first drummers for Brand X! Other possible links- Percy Jones and Tony Levin both appear on Michael Zentner's "Playtime". They even play on two tracks together. Robin Lumley produced Bill Bruford's "Feel's Good to Me" which featured a cameo by John Goodsall. There is a new Crimson tribute cd coming out on Cleopatra records, and Percy Jones and Frank Katz offer their rendition of "Neal and Jack and Me". Here are Brand X tour dates!!! Its their first time playing Europe in over 17 years, and they will be playing Italy for the first time ever. Dont miss it!! Pierre Moerlen is now the drummer. Wed. 5/14 London Jazz Cafe Thur. 5/18 Reading Alley Cat Fri. 5/20 Leeds Irish Center Sat. 5/21 Manchester The Music Box Wed. 5/25 Shefield Leadmill Thur. 5/26 Oxford Zodiac Fri. 5/27 Bristol Fleece & Firkin Sat. 5/28 Colchester Arts Center ITALY Tues 6/3 Vignola Town Hall Wed. 6/4 Rome RAI Radio Live Broadcast Tues.6/5 Rome Frontiera Thur. 6/6 Schio Teatro Pasubio Fri. 6/7 Genova Teatro albatros GERMANY/Swiss Sun. 6/8 Bassel. Swis. Atlantis Mon. 6/9 Stuttgart Altes Schutzenhaus Tues. 6/10 Munich Schlachthof Wed. 6/11 Erlangen E-werk Thur. 6/12 Cologne (Koln) Tunnels Sat. 6/14 Hameln Sumpfblume Sun. 6/15 Frankfurt Sinkhasten MrBerwell at aol dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:01:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: David Cross, Peter Hammill Hello Friends: Every once in a great while I see inquiries on ET as to what David Cross is up to. Cross has not been dormant. He's recorded a number of things on the label Red Hot Records. Red Hot is now a member of The Artist Shop and you can find their catalog (including Cross's two most recent albums, Testing for Destruction and The Big Picture) with graphics and soundbites at . These are excellent albums and you will definitely hear a hint of that 70's Crimson sound that Cross was a part of. Also on Red Hot is the group Jade Warrior. Their album, Distant Echoes, features Cross in a supporting role. Also of interest in the Red Hot catalog is the Peter Hammill/Guy Evans album, Spur of the Moment. This is a wonderful album of instrumental improvisation and was the first collaboration between the two since their Van der Graaf Generator days. Speaking of Peter Hammill and Van der Graaf Generator, towards the end of this month Fie! Records will be putting out a re-release of Van der Graaf Generator's first album, Aerosol Grey Machine. The Artist Shop is taking advance orders on this now. The Artist Shop has recently struck up an arrangement with Expos=E8, a quarterly progressive rock magazine. Anyone even remotely interested in the music found in The Artist Shop will love Expos=E8. And now you can subscaribe to it directly through The Artist Shop. Just check it out at . You'll find information there plus a link to Expos=E8's own website where you can check this periodical out further. It's an excellent way to find out about new music. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #377 ********************************