Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #371 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 371 Friday, 18 April 1997 Today's Topics: Covering prog vs. punk an unknown Fripp Birthday greetings Fretless Guitars Re: Indie, Lake The Thrill of Crimso Don Caballero Re: Elephant Talk Digest #370 Progressive Punk? Sylvian/Fripp retrospective CD Epitaph U. S. Pre-Release Listening Party Lotsa New Stuff night wounds time Islands RE: 'sound' craft. Rossmore Road Epitaph Compact KC for trade & pH nostalgic yearnings I'm firmly against the "song polling", and WHY Amateur Night at Wilbarston Tattoos Epitah...2 or 4 cd?! Critics and prog Hi Toby !!!! Ax Vidieo/Bruford and the beat/more RE:I love Crimson and you've got to hear Porcupine Tree cline cd Fripp Show John Wetton in NYC Re: Elephant Talk Digest #370 Hall & Oates,G3 EPITAPH EVENT IN NEW YORK CITY 4/26!!!!! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 10:13:48 CDT From: "WebMonkey" Subject: Covering In ET #370 Joe Basile writes: >Why covers on a band, that in 25 or so years never ,to my fairly good >knowledge, never did a cover? Sorry, Hoist's , MARS, doesn't count in >my book. Ma'HERE COMES THE FLOOD is a stretch if we include Robert's >solo work. Actually, if you check the FxF liner notes you will find that one of the first songs KC played in the '69 lineup (probably at the Speakeasy) was "Lucy in the Sky (w/ Diamonds)" and when they toured the US during the same year they played "20th Century Man" which is a cover, I know not by whom, and was originally intended to be on the _Epitaph_ box set but was omitted for some reason (maybe it is on there I don't have my copy yet) but I haven't seen any postings recently that mention that song in the track listing. Mr. Basile I do agree with you that Crimson fans should emulate the innovativeness of KC rather than KC's innovations. "As he saw his life run away from him, thousands ran along. Chanting words form a song." -from Phish's "The Curtain" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 97 16:11:39 BST From: Scott Hamrick Subject: prog vs. punk The following is my response to a private E-mail which D. Saroka sent me (which he also posted in in ET 370): >just because some of the critics who didn't like prog were leftists, >it is fallacious to assume that they didn't like prog _because_ they were >leftists. I never said they did! All I said was that many of the people who criticized prog so heavilly were leftists. You obviously didn't read my post closely enough before you flew off the handle. Something tells me you have leftist ideas of your own that you can't wait to defend at the drop of a hat. >what bothers me is the attribution of an _agenda_. >what leftist goal is to be acheived by attacking prog? You tell me. Even if there is one, why would that bother you so much? I don't know why ANYONE doesn't like prog rock! >additionally, there were significant members of what might loosely be >termed the 'Prog community' that were leftists as well, Tell me something I don't know. Keith Emerson liked to burn the American flag in concert. Many Italian bands like Area and possibly PFM were communists. Many bands in the R.I.O. movement, like Henry Cow were communist as well. I like many of these bands, so you're not telling me anything new. Your argument doesn't discount the fact that (whether you like it or not) most of the punk bands and their supporters had leftist ideas AND hated prog rock! What's the connection? I don't know and I don't care. Draw your own conclusion. >so where does >that leave your (& Macan's) theory? You mean the one you misunderstood? Right where I left it! __________________________________________________________________________ Then there's Eb: >So? That's all true -- what's wrong with that? The punks were "ignorant" >because they protested the excesses of ELP, etc. and the brutal class >structure of British society? No, ignorant because they couldn't handle/understand talented, forward-thinking musicians that played more than 3 chords and didn't use the word "bollocks" in their album titles. Punk only took rock music BACKWARDS 10 years! > Punk had to happen --at least, SOMETHING had to happen. If you ask me, rock music >never was so stale as it was in 1976. I have between 2000-2500 albums, and >yet I only own 20 or so from that year. Crappy, crappy year for music. You're right, most of the good first-generation prog bands had run out of steam and/or didn't release anything in 1976! Scott Hamrick (a millitant prog rocker who would have expected a little more sympathy for the sad plight of progressive rock from ETers.) P.S. Even though I usually prefer more "excessive" music, Don Caballero IS a good indie rock band that most Crimheads probably would like. (Watch out, though, they know more than 3 chords!) It's good to know DC is down with KC. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:43:31 -0400 (EDT) From: ADERKAZARIAN at MBLN1 dot MBLN dot LIB dot MA dot US Subject: an unknown Fripp Just thought you guys might like to hear this: a woman comes in to the library I work at and wants to sign up for the internet. I say, "Sure, what's your name?" She says, "Fripp." I say, "You must get people asking you if you're Robert Fripp's brother." She says, "All the time. In fact, I once wrote to him about our common name and he said we must be disctant cousins or something." That's it. Alan DerKazarian, Cambridge, Ma, US ------------------------------ From: "Scott Bickel" Subject: Birthday greetings Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:18:24 -0500 Happy Birthday Mr. Fripp. Thank you for the wonderful music. Scott Bickel Redfield, IA email: scottb at fcconline dot com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 09:37:59 +0100 (BST) From: Jason Bell Subject: Fretless Guitars Dear All, I wonder if you can help me. Does anybody have any tips or magazine article on fretless guitars (not basses)? I know that Adrian Belew played them on TOAPP (especially 'Model Man') and I also have video footage of him playing the said guitar on an instructional video. I have a friend who is trying to build one out of an old fretted guitar, so any help would be much appreciated. Adrian are you out there ???? Also, I picked up the Guitar as Orchestra by Mr Belew, this is a great CD. It's mood music, to be savoured over a bottle of red wine (Jacobs Creek 1991 or 1994). I can't say much about as I don't really concentrate on this CD, I just let if float. Jason Bell Email : xdr44 at dial dot pipex dot com OR Jason dot Bell at PEmail dot net WWW : http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/xdr44/ Chapman Stick Player and a Member Of The HTML Writers Guild ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 03:19:22 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Indie, Lake >From: Chris McGrath > >Some of the best punk/indie music is greatly reminiscent of KC, and >has the aggression and craziness that KC have forgone in recent years for >structure and technology. Some bands to check out: > >Don Caballero >June of 44 >Drive Like Jehu >Breadwinner >Jumbo >Rachel's >A Minor Forest Speaking as (apparently?) the only other indie-rock fan on the list, I think you should add Nomeansno to the above names. :) Oh, and while I haven't heard all of the bands above, I must admit that June of 44 and Rachel's don't impress me at all, sorry. >From: fsteama at macline dot co dot uk (Mike Goode) > >The upcoming Greg Lake anthology is supposed to contain some >unreleased KC rarities. Has anyone any info on this? I have a copy already (offers?). The King Crimson-related material: "In The Court of the Crimson King," "Cat Food" and a 1981 King Biscuit Flower Hour recording of "21st Century Schizoid Man" by Lake and his solo band. So I suppose the last track may be what you're thinking of. I played it -- it's 9 minutes long and horrible, IMO. Way too many cheesy haircut heavy-metal overtones for me, as played by this group. It is "tight" though, so you musicianship fanatics might (gulp) enjoy it. Oh, and by the way, the cover art of the CD is HIDEOUS. I guess Rhino had no choice, when trying to market a guy as overweight as Lake. You'll see what I mean. ;) Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:24:20 -0400 (EDT) From: WrongWayCM at aol dot com Subject: The Thrill of Crimso Hi, everybody This is my first time writing on ET but I've enjoyed reading everyone's comments lately. Last weekend (April 5th) me and my Philadelphia trio, Wrong Way Out, played our CD release party at a small coffee house. Our set included mostly original material as well as "You Say He's Just a Psychic Friend" by Vernon Reid and Masque, (opened for Crimson in the August show of 96 in Phila) as well as VROOOM, and Larks' Tongues in Aspic Part Two. Now, our band consists of guitar, (me) bass (George Korein) and Drums (Bill Morrison) and we're all 14 years old. I felt a little weird playing LTIA II, a song that was released 9 years before is was born but hey. Anyway, the crowd loved it. Most of them didn't even know what the heck we were playing but it was such a thrill for us (I still cant get over it a week later!) Even the "single trio" version of VROOOM with its shortened coda (our bass player's suggestion) came out rocking. It's wonderful to know that with a band like King Crimson the pieces they write can be just as enjoyable to play as they are to listen to. I love the feeling that I can transfer this great composition to other people's ears, leaving everybody in the room, including myself, amazed. Thanks for the opertunity for me to bable Colin Marston ------------------------------ From: Bradley Stewart Cook Subject: Don Caballero Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 15:57:27 -0500 (CDT) Taken from et #370: Don Caballero June of 44 Drive Like Jehu Breadwinner Jumbo Rachel's A Minor Forest I used to work with Mike Banfield of Dan Caballero and he was a huge fan of KC, and they have the craziest drummer I've ever seen (hits anything and everything and sometimes plays with small baseball bats). --end quoted material-- I have mentioned this band here on et before and indeed Don Caballero strikes me as well as being in the same vein of music making as Crimson. I do not mean that the music of DC sounds like Crimso, but the spirit of it is similar. The feeling I get from DC is more reminiscent of Red area, but without being retro. I accidentally caught this all instrumental group at a club called Goat's Head Soup in Houston (before said club mysteriously exploded amid rumors of mob involvement) I just went one night and DC was opening for this pathetic band called Laughing Hyena.(I give laughing Hyena vote for worst performance ever) Drummer was wild but guitarist was flat out spastic. I was thinking of Crimson for most of the amazing performance. Fantastic. Thanks for reminding me. DigMe Brad bradcook at tamu dot edu ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #370 Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 14:22:35 -0700 From: Bruce Selzler >Certainly the '72-'74 lineup seems to be the favorite old lineup for those >who responded. And Fracture was a clear winner over Starless; the few who >sent in more than one vote (there were very few, and I only counted the #1 >choice for people who sent me more than three votes) always voted Fracture >over Starless, wherever they ended up on the list. I myself, as I've >already mentioned, am partial to the idea of any of you guys doing the >Great Deceiver, but I'm sure any of us would be thrilled if you played any >of the songs that were voted for. And as always, all that we really ask >from you is that you continue to put out innovative music; whether you >fulfill our nostalgic yearnings is entirely up to you. You know....the more I think about it Crimso doing a cover of "I Am the Walrus" would be awfully cool. I think Adrian Belew was the first to mention that as a hypothetical idea. BTW, if you don't have Op Zop Too Wah, hang up and go buy it right now. Its one of the most addicting addicting CD's I've heard in a long time. Well, since Thrak anyway. B-{)} - Sez **************** Visit @Music on Talk City +===+ o +===+ THE ROAD | | /|\ | | http://www.talkcity.com/atmusic/ GOES ON |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| FOREVER.... |___| / \ |___| IRC: chat.talkcity.com **************** ------------------------------ Subject: Progressive Punk? Date: Sun, 13 Apr 97 14:22:39 -0700 From: Bruce Selzler >So? That's all true -- what's wrong with that? The punks were "ignorant" >because they protested the excesses of ELP, etc. and the brutal class >structure of British society? Those are highly defensible views. Punk had >to happen --at least, SOMETHING had to happen. If you ask me, rock music >never was so stale as it was in 1976. I have between 2000-2500 albums, and >yet I only own 20 or so from that year. Crappy, crappy year for music. >Beyond the emergence of the Ramones, Graham Parker and Patti Smith (and >maybe Songs in the Key of Life...heh), not much happening at all. The punk >explosion of 1977 was a welcome breath of fresh air. The punk movement was good for rock in the sense that it set fire to the commercial excesses of the era. Lets face it, a lot of rock was quickly becoming gutless crap, and punk shone a glaringly bright light on it. And, of course, the cockroaches all ran for cover. On the other hand, Punk failed, in that it was the beginning of "fashion driven rock". Not enough substance to sustain an art. Previously rock had directed fashion, but the punk/new wavers with the record companies following like sheep, threw out the baby with the bath water. Of course not everything happening in rock when punk hit was bad, but it was made to seem so. I think this is why the current crop of bands are so shallow. They have no "history" to draw from. The great bands of the late sixties and early seventies had a rich tradition of rock and roll and rhythm and blues from wich to draw ideas. The current bands seem to have nothing but punk to draw from, and regardless of how much you like punk, your average punk band is pretty one dimensional. - Sez **************** Visit @Music on Talk City +===+ o +===+ THE ROAD | | /|\ | | http://www.talkcity.com/atmusic/ GOES ON |~~~| Co-"=|~~~| FOREVER.... |___| / \ |___| IRC: chat.talkcity.com **************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:14:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: Sylvian/Fripp retrospective CD A relative of mine found a used CD and sent it to me a couple days ago: it's called David Sylvain and Robert Fripp: _God's Monkey: Retrospective_. It's out on Virgin, 1993, and includes stuff from The First Day, Sylvian/Sakamoto (Heartbeat), Rain Tree Crow, a bunch of Sylvian solo albums, and one Japan track. I think a lot of the tracks don't have Fripp on them (but I haven't listened to the whole thing). Anyone else seen this album? It's a great way to hear Sylvian's work without having to go out and buy all of the albums. Frustrating thing, though, is that it doesn't list musicians who play on the songs, or any sort of liner notes or anything: the booklet is entirely blank. Gideon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:22:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: Epitaph U. S. Pre-Release Listening Party I haven't seen any mention of this in ET, or maybe it somehow slipped by me. I received a fax on the matter from DGM's PR people and I asked if it was ok for The Artist Shop to post it and was told yes, so here goes! The fax I received contained the following information: Original members of King Crimson reunite for Epitaph listening party at HMV Record Stores in New York City In a rare appearance the original 1969 incarnation of King Crimson will reunite on April 26 at 3 p.m. at HMV Record Stores, 86th & Lexington, in New York City for a pre-release listening party of EPITAPH, a new King Crimson double CD boxed set due out on Discipline Global Mobile on April 29. The new collection features previously unreleased and recently found studio sessions, live highlights and a complete concert by the 1969 original King Crimson line-up. The band was recently reunited for the first time since 1969 during a similar playback party in London on March 15. Now U.S. fans will be able to interact with the four original members (Robert Fripp, Greg Lake, Ian McDonald, Michael Giles) during the HMV Record Stores event. This information is also available on The Artist Shop's bulletin board at . Also in our Discipline section we now have the DGM sampler, Sometimes God Hides, and Fripp's new album, That Which Passes. You'll find graphics and soundbites for these as well as the new Epitaph set at . Some of you might also be interested in checking out our newest members from Cuneiform Records as some of their artists, especially Boud Deun and Present, display a definite Crimsonish attitude about them. Also on our New Artist Page you'll find the debut solo disc from Sean Malone called Cortlandt which features a guest appearance by Trey Gunn. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 01:14:13 -0400 From: Gary Davis Subject: Lotsa New Stuff Hello Friends: Lots of exciting stuff to tell you about from The Artist Shop! First from Discipline - you'll now find both the DGM sampler, Sometimes God Hides, and the new Robert Fripp disc, That Which Passes, in our Discipline section . You'll also find the new King Crimson, Epitaph, culled from live performances from the original line-up from 1969 (Robert Fripp, Greg Lake, Ian McDonald, Michael Giles, Pete Sinfield). Although the Epitaph set won't be released until the end of April, you can preview it at The Artist Shop and place advance orders as well. And here's some really big news about Epitaph if you haven't already heard it. Back in March there was a pre-release listening party of the album in London that included the original members. As it turns out, there will also be a U.S. listening party, too! This event will be on April 26 at 3pm at HMV Record Stores on 86th and Lexington in New York City! Attending this event will be Fripp, McDonald, Lake and Giles! I have this information posted on The Artist Shop Bulletin Board at . The Artist Shop wants to welcome a new member, Cuneiform Records. This label is a progressive giant featuring some absolutely incredible music. Cuneiform has a large catalog (around 100 releases) so it'll be a while before I get soundbites and graphics up for everything. But I've got it started with eight of Cuneiform's latest releases from Boud Deun, Soft Machine, Gary Windo, Dr. Nerve, Present, Raoul Bjorkenhiem, The Muffins and Grits. The rest of the catalog is also listed and available for purchase. Of special interest are Bird Songs of the Mesozoic, Hugh Hopper, Happy Family, Happy the Man, Phil Miller, The Muffins, Heldon and so much more! You'll find our Cuneiform page at . We have some new friends on our New Label Page . First is Richard Sinclair. Richard is from the Canterbury scene and was a very integral part of Caravan, Hatfield & the North, and Camel. For me, Richard's voice and his songwriting were the heart and soul of Canterbury and I'm delighted to have his album, RSVP, in The Artist Shop. Also on the New Label Page is Doane Perry's band, Threads. Doane Perry is the drummer/percussionist for Jethro Tull and has also worked with Todd Rundgren, Lou Reed, Dweezil Zappa, Kitaro, Jon Anderson, Fairport Convention, Gary Brooker and many more! Joining him in Threads is vocalist Ellis Hall from Tower of Power and composer/keyboardist Vince DiCola. This new album is getting strong reviews so check it out. I happen to be a huge Vangelis fan. So I'm delighted to have the new Vangelis biography, Vangelis: The Unknown Man by Mark J. T. Griffin, at The Artist Shop. You'll find it at . This is an absolute must have for any serious Vangelis collector as it not only details his musical history, but has the most extensive discography/workography I've seen on the man anywhere. For lovers of Progressive Metal, there is a new Chastain album out called In Dementia. This new CD melds together the 4 great individual talents of vocalist Kate French, guitarist David T. Chastain, bassist Kevin Kekes and drummer Denish Lesh. The group continues its heavy bombastic sound created on 1995's Sick Society. In Dementia promises to be one of the top heavy progressive metal releases in 1997 and should prove to be a favorite for years to come. Simply put; heavily demented progressive metal!! You'll find it at . If you haven't been to the New Artist Page recently, you'll want to check it out. We've added two new up and coming artists. The first is U.K. native Andrew Booker. Andrew is a vocalist/composer/percussionist with a new self produced CD called Ahead. If you like The Blue Nile at all, then you'll definitely want to give Andrew a listen. We're also introducing Sean Malone, an incredible young bassist and Stick player with his solo debut, Cortlandt. Guesting on this album are Crimson's Trey Gunn and Bowie guitarist Reeves Gabrels. Definitely worthy of your attention. Phew! Hope you didn't get lost in all that! Stop by soon for a visit. Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 10:23:56 +0100 (BST) From: Markus Schneemann Subject: night wounds time There will be a concert this week celebrating the 60th birthday of Tom Phillips, British composer and artist, on Friday, April 18th, 8 p.m. in Oxford - Jacqueline du Pre Music Building - as part of the "Oxford Contemporary Music Festival". They will play chamber music and songs by T. Phillips, H. Birtwistle, C. Cardew, D. Bedford, M. Feldman. Many of you may wonder why I mention this to KRimson enthusiasts ? Well,as some of you might have noticed from the title of my email: Tom Phillips designed the cover of "STARLESS AND BIBLE BLACK" ! I think the "night wounds time" - bit comes from Phillips' work "HUMUMENT" a treatment of a Victorian novel with water colour. Cheers, Markus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 08:17:45 UT From: "GREGORY FORSTER" Subject: Islands Hi E.T'ers, I somewhat reluctantly buy into the "Islands" discussion,as I found it a somewhat relatively disappointing album compared to those that came before - and subsequently those that followed. I do stress though,relatively disappointing. It always struck me as an album that tended to stand alone. It bore only scant resemblance to the first three albums,and very little in common with those that followed. It,for the most part,was significantly more low-key,and prehaps less adventurous in some ways - prehaps more "ambient" in texture. I feel it lacks a musical dexterity from the front-line musicians. Not Mel Collins or the guest musicians so much,but I think you'd be hard pressed to compare the musicianship of Boz Burrell & Ian Wallace to the bassists & drummers in other Crimson line-ups (and yes I know Boz was only new to his instrument). It always struck me as an album (or prehaps line-up) in transision - unconciously marking time - certainly in the studio. I will say before incurring the ire of fellow Crimson fans,that I still like the album,although it probably is my least favourite. I prehaps stand alone in my love of "Lizard". Fripp appears not to hold the album in high regard - as it seems to fail to appear on any "best of" albums,save the instrumental section on "Frame By Frame" (with Levin's bass replacing Haskell's). In regard to "Islands". Could anyone out there tell me where the alternative cover for the album came from - and ultimately what happened to it. My original copy was an Australian pressing featuring the usual "Trifid Nebula in Sagittarius" cover. When the copy showed the inevidable signs of wear I replaced it (along with all my Crimson albums) with new vinyl copies. The new copy was a U.S. gate-fold sleeve,buff in colour with a small out-of-focus "blob" of colours in the bottom right-hand corner. Kindest regards - Greg Forster Figleeve at msn dot com dot au ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 05:14:52 -0700 From: 12.4::brianmc at cs dot man dot ac dot uk (Brian McNeil) Subject: RE: 'sound' craft. Sorry to have to waste a bit of bandwidth here but, I note from my last post (ET #370), that my email address has, as all too frequently happens, been lost. At the end of my last post I asked for some information:- >> Finally, a plea for information, I'm trying to work as the sound engineer >> with a friend's band, there is guitar craft - but I'm looking for a course >> to improve my 'sound' craft (preferably in the UK). Email any info >>directly please. The address anyone who can help me on this one should use is:- brian_mcneil at rossinc dot com. Thanks in advance for any help here. Brian McNeil. * Burying your head in the sand will not prevent * * you from seeing you are in the desert. * ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:23:35 +0100 From: Ed Mayall Subject: Rossmore Road Hullo evryboddy. The Fripp discography includes the Barry Andrews single Rossmore Road/Win a night out with a well-known paranoiac. Having heard both sides of this on the radio when it was released (1980ish) I reckoned it was a superbly original piece of vinyl, so I went out to give a bit more of my pocket money to Mr Branson. Although something of a novelty item, it has hardly waned in my estimation and is one of the few vinyl singles I still play. However. Fripp is indeed on the list of contributors, but I'm damned if I can hear anything like a guitar on either side. Or even a Frippian guitar. So - does anyone have any idea what "Chuckles" was up to on this recording? Just curious. On an existing thread: the state of "Progressive" music around 1976 was anything but progressive. Punk allowed music to progress. (One of) The main point about punk was that it set out to shock. Sid Vicious wearing a swastika T-shirt in the Jewish sector of Paris was not an especially political statement so much as a rather cynical attempt to offend and create publicity. The same can probably be said of Mr Rotten's "I hate Pink Floyd" shirt (laudable though that sentiment may be...). Much as I love the Pistols, it's important to remember that their image and "Politics" were manufactured almost as much as the Spice Girls'. Aside: John Lydon dropped his stance on "Stadium Rock" - Public Image Limited included Zep's Kashmir in their later live sets (anyone got a recording of that?). Porcupine Tree: I quite like them, but who was it who decided to lumber them with the "Prog" label? Is it just 'cos Steve Wilson's got long hair? He's a great guitarist and clearly knows a thing or two about structuring songs: must we put up with this obsessive labelling? By the by it was a wonderful surprise to see him laying his licks (pardon?) for Jansen, Barbieri and Kahn on Saturday night at the London Astoria - an excellent set, but my ignorance in the music of messrs J, B & K inhibits me from writing much about it - I'll leave that to a more experienced ETer (over to you John Dunn). We all need some kind of label. I suppose that's why they call me Ed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 09:24:13 -0400 From: Dave Anastasi Subject: Epitaph Friends, Can someone tell me how to get my hands on the 4cd box set. The vendors in my area are all expecting to receive the 2cd set and don't know anything about the other 2 cds. Can someone fill me in? It would be greatly appreciated. -DAve ------------------------------ From: Alex Moseley Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:55:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Compact KC for trade & pH I have a copy of The Compact King Crimson (1986) on CD which I'd like to trade for any Soundscapes CDs or a variety of other bits - mail me direct if you're interested. As a follow-up to my post a few issues back re: the Union Chapel Concert double CD by Peter Hammill & Guy Evans / Van der Graaf Generator, my copy arrived the other day and I heartily recommend it to Thrakkers amongst you - much wonderful improvisation (Evans is a match for Bruford in terms of unusual beats), and even some distinctly soundscape-esque pieces courtesy of David Jackson (ex of VdGG). Try it! 12.50 sterling in the UK from Sofa Sound, PO Box 66, Freshford, Bath. Did anyone catch the John Wetton show in Leicestershire over the weekend? I'd be interested to hear what I missed! Alex. *----------------------------- Alex Moseley, Computer Officer (Arts & Law), University of Leicester. ------------------------------ From: mumphres at cabq dot gov Subject: nostalgic yearnings Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:27:03 -0600 To Damon re: I wanna hear... Somehow, I keep coming back to the thought that if Crimso wanted to keep performing their older stuff, Mr. Fripp would not always be changing the composition of members. By changing who is in Crimso, the band always has a fresh face. I think that this constant changing keeps new innovation coming from this great band. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 19:23:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Brancaleone Subject: I'm firmly against the "song polling", and WHY After a little thought I conclude that it's wrong to have the "polling" of ET subscribers for suggesting songs in KC's future live set. The main reason is because its heaping suggestions upon a musical entity that, to me, has proved itself to not need such suggestions. Granted I have not yet been to a KC live show (which I'm determined to change come next tour of course), but just from my copy of "B'Boom", "Frame by Frame" live, and "Thrakattack", I've realized that we shouldn't come to KC with such expectations. To me it's a trust issue. To put it in Fripp's terms: from the love letters I trust that the hot date will indeed be hot, though I can't predict the working out of it. I wouldn't want to call my beloved ahead of time and suggest, "in such and such letter you wrote such and such, I want you to say that to me when we meet for the hot date." Obviously I think the hot date won't be as hot without my suggestions, which indicates lack of trusting that my beloved's presence would be pleasing no matter what. What would make it all the less pleasing is my expectations. So bringing expectations could only dampen the excitement as far as I'm concerned. Suppose that KC decides to ignore all the song suggestions. That may then lead to unecessary disappointment of the people who attend the concert and had already suggested certain songs on ET to be revived. Maybe its not a big deal, but it's still unecessary. Fripp himself notes that the live experience should be without expectation and without history (in his "bootlegging" diatribe). We should just trust where KC plans to go. Talking about what people WANT to hear shows a lack of trust, be it ever so minute. Even in the smallest degree it would take away from the enjoyment of what IS being played and what WILL be played. If these suggested songs are not being performed live, then it must be for one simple reason: the band decided its just not their time. The audience need only appreciate what does come about when they're there to experience it. After reading Fripp's introduction to Guitar Craft, it's obvious that HOW something is played is just as important, or probably more important, as WHAT is played. With that in mind, it would be ridiculous for us to start giving suggestions on HOW Fripp and KC should play their music live for us. And it is therefore almost equally ridiculous for us to suggest to them WHAT to play. With most any other rock concert I attend, I do have hopes and expectations that the band plays MY favorite songs by them. But KC is doing something no other rock band is doing, and I feel like I have a completely different and special relationship with this band. I don't care if my favorite songs are played or not when I see them live. I know that however it comes about, I'll be invited into exciting musical territory that only exists live in the moment (more Fripp terminology). So there's all my argumentation. jOE "Gravity impedes my progress." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Apr 97 21:17:22 GMT From: KIM_FYSON Subject: Amateur Night at Wilbarston Many thanks to those ET readers who let me know about the John Wetton/Steve Hackett gig at Wilbarston but what a shame (sham?) it was. I am worried that it was just me who thought this concert was total rubbish. Please let's hear it from some others who were there with a a good thing to say about it. To start with the sound mix was dreadful. Someone forgot to tell someone that this was a village hall and not Wembley Stadium. My ears are still ringing at time of writing 48 hours after the event. This has only happened to me once before in the early '70s when I sat in front of the PA stack at Deeep Purple in The Queen Elizabeth Hall London. Wetton's music is not Deep Purple. Even when Easy Money reaches it's climax it needs some subtlety. This is not only dangerous but inexcusable with today's technology. I've heard much better sound from village hall band's. The excellent Gwyn Ashton, who opened the bill with some strong and at times very heavy blues, had no problem with this venue at all. He was loud but clear as a bell. The Wetton Band was much, much louder and distorted and muddied beyond comfortable listening levels. To go on.... It takes more than just playing some of the notes almost in the right order to do justice to The Night Watch, Easy Money and Starless. John's singing was OK (I think), although not his best night I suspect but, with the exception of a very fine drummer, as good as Bruford or Palmer (at least at that age) where did he get the others from and why insult us by playing that carelessly. The guitar player, despite being capable in his own right, was simply not able to come near being able to play the Crimson songs. Most of the instrumental work was unfortunately left to the keyboard player and that was a serious mistake - my gran who only plays the upright piano, would have been a better bet. Finally, John Wetton is not, at least from this performance apparently, a particularly accomplished acoustic guitarist. Stick to the bass, John, please. I was profoundly disappointed (and angry) with this very poor excuse for a professional rock band. I've been attending rock concerts in venues vast and tiny for the last 30 years and have seen many of the great bands and many completely unkown bands and I do feel that this is probably the worst gig I have ever attended. Finally, I have to mention poor old Steve Hackett. He came on and played (rather reluctantly I thought) the acoustic Horizons from Foxtrot to an enthusiastic reception from the audience then he played, with the dubious help of the band, the famous solo from Firth of Fifth which should have been soaring majestically at the top of the music but would only have been recognised under the general mishmash of synthesised keyboard by die-hard Genesis fans. To add a final insult to the injury John Wetton attempted the last few verses of Peter Gabriel's vocals and forgot the words! Enough said. There is much more but you don't want to hear it. I'm seeing the band again at Croydon next weekend so will reserve final judgement until after that event, meanwhile I'd love to hear a positive review of this concert to reassure me that all is not lost. Kim Fyson CAMBRIDGE England ------------------------------ From: Trent Turner Subject: Tattoos Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 16:44:48 -0600 Sorry to be rather flippant with my first post, but has anyone else thought about getting a tattoo based on a King Crimson album cover. My daughter will be 18 in 2 years, whereupon I expect she will modify her body with ink, and I have given serious consideration to adorning myself with the Sun/Moon picture from Lark's Tongue in Aspic. The mandala from Discipline seems too complex to be a good candidate for a tattoo. Just curious Thanks, Trent Turner Is this a great time, or what? ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:46:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierron2 at aol dot com Subject: Epitah...2 or 4 cd?! I keep hearing that Epitah is supposed to be a 4 disc set...but I've only seen it available as a double disc set..(in Goldmine)..and for the full price that's expected for the 4 disc set! Which is it?! I REALLY want to pick it up...but don't want to pay full price for half the set. I would appreciate any information...e-mail me at pierron2 at aol dot com. Thanks! Mike Pierron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 16:30:59 -0400 (EDT) From: James Hannigan Subject: Critics and prog > just because some of the critics who didn't like prog were leftists, > it is fallacious to assume that they didn't like prog _because_ they were > leftists. what bothers me is the attribution of an _agenda_. > what leftist goal is to be acheived by attacking prog? The goal of advancing, through the mighty power of the critical pen, mainly rock and roll which was politically or socially conscious. Not that a critic like Dave Marsh or Bangs only like(d) "political" music, but it sure got extra points for it. It was related to the view that rock was "working class" music, whereas prog, with its classical side, was antithetical to this. > additionally, there were significant members of what might loosely be > termed the 'Prog community' that were leftists as well, so where does > that leave your (& Macan's) theory? The same place it was before, since the issue is with the journalists, not the fans. - Jim ------------------------------ From: "Israel Coello" Subject: Hi Toby !!!! Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:20:48 +0200 Hi Toby !!! Sorry for my English, ( IS VERY BAD!!!!!) Please Anuncing for all ET'rs, for the new album (firts album) a " DIFICIL EQUILIBRIO" Group. In Spain !!! it's a CD ( Liquid Records) (Reference n:1), very good (in my opinion... hi!) include a new version of "FRACTURE" (King Crimson/R.Fripp) Please for many information to: Reference n: 1: Liquid Records c/ Gomis, n: 42 08023-BARCELONA, Spain Alberto Dmaz (ET'er) & Guitar: berto at redestb dot es Israel Coello (Produced): radix at redestb dot es This CD is a different conception of Progressive music a minimalist music in spain!! Thank for All Toby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 12:30:08 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Ax Vidieo/Bruford and the beat/more Howdy, ON the last ET there was mention of Careful with that Ax. I bought the video in the mid to late 80's.If your a crafty fan ,or a Robert fan this is a must. The last ET also had a poll for voting for crimson songs fans wanted to see live. The reason I mentioned for the boys to play STARLESS in my Christmas posting,was RF passion to play this song."I just ache to play this again!" "My heart aches to play this again!" I totally agree with the author of the last posting,the word passionate describes this best. Since this is a favorite of mine, hence the request Christmas time. Also,since I'm an opponent of cover songs on the KC Tribute CD,am I being a hypocrite for requesting different KC songs not of the current KC family? If you would like a email trade of this Video,I only have mono dubbing capibilities. There has been much discussion on what you hear first is what you like best.In general this is true for me, but not with Crimson music! Many songs I only liked of KC until I heard or saw it live.Talking Drum, LTIA.PT1, or People from the new Video. But the best example of this was when I saw the Sheltering SKY on the NOISE video! Last but certainly not least is Roberts work as a Producer seems very underrated to me.With others and with the definetive Crimson.Singleton and Fripps' work on the Great Decieiver is monumental. I can't understand why he is not used more in the recording world. Robert is probably to busy, but I'm glad Dave is stricklly RF/KC.Probably not for long. Warmly, Joe Basile ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 09:54:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Dennis Montgomery Subject: RE:I love Crimson and you've got to hear Porcupine Tree >Now, I love KC and don't care much at all for Porcupine Tree. Please, this >is not a knock on PT, as Robert would say, this is a reflection of me not It also depends on which Porcupine Tree CD you're listening to. I've heard 3 and they all seem to have a unique character. The only one that reminds me of Crimson is _The Sky Moves Sideways_. There's a long building instrumental song in the middle (don't remember the title) that strikes me as being a Fracture for the 90's. It starts out really light and finishes with a Frippish guitar flourish a la 'A Sailors Tale'...I think Porcupine Tree is great but agree they're much closer to Floyd than Crimson. Dennis ------------------------------ From: DR S WILKIE Organization: University of Wales, Swansea Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 10:05:13 GMT0BST Subject: cline cd there's a cd by alex cline/gauthier/stinson - "right of violet" [nine winds 0184] which sounds like a cross between the soundscapes stuff and side two of three of a perfect pair; well worth a purchase! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 17:54:34 -0400 From: Kurt Kleinschmidt Subject: Fripp Show Hey! I was just checking www.pollstar.com and saw that Robert Fripp is listed as playing Concord Pavilion on August 1st. Anybody heard any more details on this "tour"? I can't make that show but I would love to see another... Concord is a fairly big place. It's kind of weird that he would be listed for this venue when good old King Crimson has a hard time filling smaller places. Hmmm... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 16:01:47 -0400 From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) Subject: John Wetton in NYC Hi all Wetton is playing at The Bottom Line in NYC(West 4th Street & Mercer) on 5/18/97. Two shows at 7:30 and 10:30. $15.00. Don't know if it's with his band or a solo acoustic like last time. Cheers, CV If you have an unpleasant nature and dislike people this is no obstacle to work. --J.G. Bennett Catch "Forever Knight" on the Sci-Fi Channel every Monday-Thursday at 9PM and 1AM, EST. --Lucien LaCroix ------------------------------ Date: 18 Apr 97 13:20:07 +0100 From: "Steve Moore" Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #370 >Incidentally, the one thing that the box set really rams home is the DGM >mail order department. Speaking of which, does anybody know if the Crimso 'album cover' T-shirts advertised on the PossProd web site are available in the UK? I especially liked the SABB shirt with the 'This Night Wounds Time' design on the back. __Steve__ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 09:55:35 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: Hall & Oates,G3 Dear Crimsonoids - I was watching a rerun of The Midnight Special on VH1 last night with Hall & Oates (Along the Red Ledge Tour). Lo and Behold if in introducing the track "Don't blame it on love" from the studio. Hall starts a large multi-track in the control room, and says " Well we have Robert Fripp doing his patented Frippertronics so.. (I paraphrase) and intros the song before cutting to the band live doing the track. I wish I'd had a tape rolling but the moment was cool. I didn't know Fripp played on AtRL so I thought I'd just pass this on. The G3 info is great there should be some very interesting music from these three different players and their sum. Does anyone know Kenny Wayne Shepard, I'm told he plays in a Texas, Stevie Ray Vaughn Style, any recommended recordings?. That's all for now, trying hard to stay awake... - Martin B. <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> Martin G. Bradburn Heartlab Inc <> <> Senior Database Engineer 101 Airport Rd <> <> mgb at heartlab dot com Westerly, RI 02891<> <> mgb at brainiac dot com(home) (401) 596-0592 <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> 'Act in accordance with where you are, when you are, <> <> with whomsoever you are.' - Guitar Craft Aphorism <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997 10:26:14 -0400 From: ssmith at knittingfactory dot com (Steve Smith) Subject: EPITAPH EVENT IN NEW YORK CITY 4/26!!!!! Hey ET - My wife was just at the HMV record store on 86th St. and Lexington Ave. in New York, and brought home a flyer announcing an "Epitaph" pre-release listening party and autograph signing session on Saturday, April 26 at 3 pm. Robert Fripp, Ian MacDonald, Greg Lake and Michael Giles are all to be in attendance (pity Sinfield couldn't make it, but still...). The flyer notes that no unauthorized photography will be permitted during the band's appearance. Just had to announce this right away so that those not in New York City could make plans to hit the road. It's not a civilized private hotel suite situation but hopefully won't be "an experience of total plasticity" either... Perhaps there are other such events scheduled at other HMVs elsewhere: want to step in here, DGM? Steve Smith ssmith at knittingfactory dot com ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #371 ********************************