Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #370 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 370 Thursday, 10 April 1997 Today's Topics: An open letter to the band members/voting results Record Collector and more Alternate Translation -- THG NO Covers Pt.#2 Song of Gulls Re: quote // turn on KC DE CD question for Mr. Fripp RE: leftist punks whatever you heard first Re: Leftists? Liner Notes PT / PF left, right, right? wrong! Fan-Freakin-Tastic Islands/Thrak Re: leftist punks Epitaph - The playback lottery? Thanks to DGM! ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) You can read the most recent seven editions of ET at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig-bin/newslet.pl THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Damon Mahon Subject: An open letter to the band members/voting results Dear Mr. Fripp, Mr. Belew, Mr. Levin, Mr. Gunn, Mr. Bruford, Mr. Mastelotto, Toby, and the rest of ET and its readers, Recently, all sorts of people have come up with King Crimson songs they'd like to hear again (Mr. Fripp, if you had ended up naming the 80's band Discipline, you never would have been faced with all of this) and so last week I took a poll of any ET members who wanted to participate to find out what exactly it is that people most want to hear. This was by no means meant as a mandate for you to play these songs again; it was just meant as a guide for you to take, if you should choose to take it, in picking out what pieces would most please your audience if you revived them. I had hoped for about 100 responses. I got less than half of that. If anybody has an idea how to get more responses to this, please go ahead and do it. However, I do think that I got a sufficient enough number to accurately represent those of us who have a song we'd really like to hear again. (Of course first and formost we want to hear your new work, but since you have always mixed the old with the new in your shows, these are suggestions for the former half.) The winner, with 27% of the votes cast, was Fracture. Second place, with 21% of the wotes cast, was Starless. Third place, with 9% of the votes cast, was The Great Deceiver. Fourth place, with 6% of the votes cast, was Exiles. The following is an alphebetization of all those that recieved one vote: *"Asbury Park-style improviations that GROOVE!" (I don't know whether this person is implying that THRAKKing doesn't groove, but he obviously liked the mid 70's lineup's improvs.) *Cat Food *Cirkus *Indoor Games/Happy Family *Industry *In the Court of the Crimson King *I Talk to the Wind *Mars *One More Red Nightmare *Sailor's Tale *Satori in Tangier *The Talking Drum At the risk of over-analyzing, I must say that people seem to most want to hear '70's Crimson, from Lizard to Red. I'm not sure why the original lineup didn't get many votes cast, but the reason for a poor showing on the part of the 80's lineup and a no-show from the '90's lineup is because we've heard a lot of it. Recently. I'm sure all of us would be upset if you didn't play selections from Discipline and THRAK on your next tour, but this was a survey of the ONE piece people would most like to hear, and so people weren't likely to vote for stuff they've heard recently as the thing they *most* want to hear again; they'd rather hear something they feel has been neglected recently. Certainly the '72-'74 lineup seems to be the favorite old lineup for those who responded. And Fracture was a clear winner over Starless; the few who sent in more than one vote (there were very few, and I only counted the #1 choice for people who sent me more than three votes) always voted Fracture over Starless, wherever they ended up on the list. I myself, as I've already mentioned, am partial to the idea of any of you guys doing the Great Deceiver, but I'm sure any of us would be thrilled if you played any of the songs that were voted for. And as always, all that we really ask from you is that you continue to put out innovative music; whether you fulfill our nostalgic yearnings is entirely up to you. Thank you all for your time. -Damon Mahon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 13:33:19 +0100 From: chris Subject: Record Collector and more Toby, please ignore previous message & (if OK) insert, instead, the following into ET - I'm eager to hear from readers & need to give them the correct address here at the cybercafe!! 1) "RECORD COLLECTOR" feature on King Crimson : Some E-Talkers may like to buy the May issue of newsagent-stocked magazine "Record Collector" (in UK shops around 24th April, overseas slightly later). King Crimson are to be featured regarding the original 1969 band's London playback for the "Epitaph" CD box set on 15th March. As editor of specialist magazine "Progress", I was booked to interview the original five members...and mentioned this arrangement to professional colleagues - "Tiz, can you report for us, too?" Record Collector responded. Delighted to help! I took a "Progress" reviewer with me because, having been into Crimson since he was 14 years old, his knowledge is far deeper than mine! Curiously, I was the only female media person in attendance. Ian McDonald, Michael Giles, Robert Fripp, Greg Lake & Peter Sinfield each were interviewed by us. There are likely to be around 5 pages devoted to Crimson in "Record Collector" - not enough for the full interviews! So these are appearing in our own "Progress" magazine. 2) 8-TRACK "HOLY GRAIL" FOR CRIMSON COLLECTORS : Does a current E-Talker have any of Crimson's 2-inch tapes recorded on the 8-track that captured Crimson (+ Joe Cocker) at their 21 November 1969 show at Fillmore East in New York? Cocker's recording recently gained release & it would be great if Crimson's could too. I gather it was ET that located a recording from radio (but alas not an original prestine recording) of Crimson's "Top Gear" session for BBC radio on 7 September 1969. How sad that the BBC have lost or destroyed their master tape & transmission copy. I know from chums who are or were presenters or producers at Radio One & Radio Two that often tapes were either recorded over or chucked into barrows for dumping - but luckily fans working for the BBC often used to take home treasures like these...so there is hope for future acquisition & release by DGM. 3) "EPITAPH" PLAYBACK : Robert Cervero, college lecturer from the U.S., certainly wrote an interesting report of the playback (ET#364), seen from the perspective of a Crimson supporter visiting England purely for the event. The warmth, friendliness & enthusiasm with which he writes makes me don my editor's hat and publicly invite Robert to become a reviewer (of gigs &/or CDs) for "Progress" magazine! Merrille Lehrer seems in a later ET to have also recognised Mr Cervero's talent - & Mr Lehrer certainly has good taste with his appetite for PORCUPINE TREE music! Recently in Italy 3,600 fans recently gave a very warm reception at 3 gigs by THE PORKIES, as we like to call the band formed by Steven Wilson - yes, he also of NO-MAN whose recordings sometime include Robert Fripp as special guest. Incidentaly, "Progress" recently published a feature regarding NO-MAN & interviewed fellow founder Tim Bowness...who attended the "Epitaph" playback. I also enjoyed "Epitaph" input from other E-Talkers, such as Newcastle based Sid Smith and Neil Talbott of the Midlands, here in England. The latter made me chuckle with his remark "Greg Lake's jacket - an apt shade of crimson - was more terrifying than 'THRaK'!" However, I'm already quaking in my shoes that Mr Talbott may be irritated by all the inter-related musicians performing on each other's albums, described in my Crimson feature in "Record Collector" - in this case regarding future, not past, projects! Does anybody have good photos for possible "Progress" publication, taken (very naughtily!) at the "Epitaph" signing session, or of Michael Giles in the pub after then event, or indeed from any era of Crimso history? Certainly I feel sad for the many Crimson supporters unable to attend, or unaware of the event until beyond the bookings deadline of 14th February. I noticed New Zealand based E-Talker David Maclennan's posting. Can anyone living thereabouts explain why it's claimed within the music industry that it's not viable to perform concerts in Australasia, whereas in the 1970s bands such as YES, CAMEL, FOCUS, etc., were very well received on stages there. Has there been a major change in taxation, law or something? 4) JOHN WETTON British tour : John Wetton enthusiasts such as E-Talker Kim Fyson may be interested in the following tour dates for the UK (that's the place, not the band - yet!) Performing with Mr Wetton will be IQ's Martin Orford, along with regulars Tom Lang & Billy Liesegang. April :- 11 SOUTH SHIELDS: The Cellar 12 WILBARSTON: Town Hall + special guest STEVE HACKETT!!! 13 BRIERLEY HILL: Robin Hood 17 LEEDS: Irish Centre 18 STOKE ON TRENT The Wheatsheaf 19 SOUTHAMPTON The Brook 20 CROYDON Ashcroft Theatre "Progress is keen to find expressive people to write for us about ProgFest at which John Wetton performs on 24 May. 5) "EPITAPH" OPINIONS INVITED FOR "PROGRESS" E-Talkers are invited to e-mail us direct (not to the over-stretched Toby!) with opinions regarding the "Epitaph" box set and indeed the playback event in London...& in the U.S. if provisional plans go ahead!! Comments can be published in the letters pages of "Progress" magazine. One aspect in which we are interested is whether or not a majority of people agree with Robert Fripp's opinion that Volumes 3 & 4 of "Epitaph" are not of sufficient quality for shop release. We have already started serialising our interviews with John Wetton, Tony Levin & many other artists making forward-moving music. Coming soon are Robert Fripp, Trey Gunn & Peter Sinfield. Later on will come our interviews with the deep-thinking Ian McDonald, open-minded Michael Giles, & of course Greg Lake gave us ample ELP & Crimson anecdotes during our 45-minute interview with him. Please invite friends with or without e-mail facilities to submit to "Progress" & our PROGressive SOCiety written contributions at: e-mail: <> P.O. Box 310, Guildford, Surrey GU2 5WH, England A 3-issue subscription to "Progress" is the following postage-inclusive price :- 5.00 pounds Sterling within the UK } 6.00 pounds to the rest of Europe } payable to "The Progressive Society 7.00 pounds to Australia, NZ, Japan } US$12.00 to the United States, Canada, South America (drawn on a U.S. based bank) payable to "T. Hay") Send a self-addressed envelope (with a UK stamp, or International-Reply Paid coupon) for information. Back issues can be obtained at the same price as a forward-looking subscription. "Progress" Issue 12, having gone to press around 27 April, with our Robert Fripp & Peter Sinfield interviews. Issue 9 carried interviews we did with John Wetton, Tony Levin & N0-MAN. In Issue 11 we again interview T-Lev, & there is a detailed biography of PORCUPINE TREE. The price for all 3 issues is as mentioned above for a 3-issue subscription. Two earlier issues of "Record Collector" have carried features on Crimson: Issue 101 (January 1988) has a 5-page retrospective up to the 1984 hibernation: 3 b/w photos. Issue 148 (December 1991) has a 3-page interview with Robert Fripp regarding the "Frame By Fame" box set: 1 b/w photo of VerbsOfPrey - sorry, RF. Back issues are pricey due to high postage (the magazines are heavy with many advertisements for collectors!) The publishers offer a price reduction for a 4-issue selection, so perhaps non-UK enthusiasts would do best to purchase 4 in one go: the May '97 issue and Issues 101 & 148 + another - back issues are regularly listed in current editions, so you can pick something of interest. Possibly attractive would be Issue 207 (November 1996) with it's PORCUPINE TREE feature - surprisingly lengthy for a comparatively young band! Seriously interested people are welcome to e-mail or write to me asking if specific artists are included in the back issues list, so that you can choose suitable issues to purchase. If you write to "Record Collector" at 45 St. Mary's Road, Ealing, London W5 5RQ, England, please say "The Progressive Society & Elephant Talk put me in touch with you"! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 09:41:28 -0400 From: Lisa Wetherby Subject: Alternate Translation -- THG In ET#368, JPHovercraft shared (one of) Belew's answers to "What is the first line in the chorus of Thela Hun Ginjeet?" " 1) The line is "Qua tari mei". According to a revered African legend, if you chant this phrase over and over while several nasty- looking Rastas are preparing to skewer you, the Rastas will be moved to return your sacred Sony tape recorder to you unharmed." However, there was another given in that (great) Q&A session: "2. "Qua tari mei" which is a corruption of the ancient sanskrit term "quarterly". According to legend this phrase was so powerful it was used to ward off quarter-tone tuning discrepencies before live t.v. performances such as The Old Grey Whistle Stop. The ancient ones later abandoned this belief with their discovery of the bronze God "Kahler" (pronounced K'-la) who promised "eternal intonation." Maybe if you ask him again, we'll get another definition. But what to put in the FAQ??? Lisa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 09:42:30 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: NO Covers Pt.#2 Howdy, I was going to keep my mouth shut,but I fell I must voice my meta- cognition on this subject one last time,promise. Isn't cover KC a lack of originality, and isn't a KC basic quality originality ? Why covers on a band, that in 25 or so years never ,to my fairly good knowledge, never did a cover? Sorry, Hoist's , MARS, doesn't count in my book. Ma'HERE COMES THE FLOOD is a stretch if we include Robert's solo work. If I am wrong , or if you have a strong differing opinion, I would like to hear it. Maybe I am missing something. The 3G tour seems to good to be true. Warmly, Joe Basile Industry,PA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 97 10:17:00 CDT From: "WebMonkey" Subject: Song of Gulls Greetings, Recent postings have addressed some of the mysteries surrounding the recording of _Islands_. Something that has always intrigued me about that album is the "Prelude: Song of Gulls" track. Who are the players in the string section? I assume that the oboeist is Mark Charig (or whoever is credited with the oboe contributions on the album, I don't have the liner notes with me right now). Furthermore, is this composition compretely Frippian in nature? Or is there some classical piece that may have influenced the writing, just as "The Devil's Triangle" attributes much to Holst's "Mars". If so I've never heard such. Personally, listening to King Crimson during the _Islands_ period is like watching a star that's about to go supernova. The star in itself has expanded to a breaking point and is wondrous, yet limited. Then it changes drastically and extends to unimaginable lengths, as King Crimson did w/ LTiA. _Islands_ is that beautiful moment prior to the end of the beginning. EA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 10:20:02 -0700 From: Chris McGrath Organization: Lockheed Martin Tactical Defense Systems - Arizona Subject: Re: quote // turn on >In the 3-4/97 issue of _Option_ the following parenthetical quote >appears >in a review of the latest from Kerosene 454 _Came by to Kill Me_ : >"...(is >King Crimson turning out to be more of an influence on young rockers >than >we initially realized?)..." And I say, "hot damn." I definitely see some Crimson in Kerosene 454 (the new incarnation of Kerosene, anyway), but I must say that there are a helluva lot of bands that cite KC as an influence/inspiration, but are not in what is usually labelled "Prog rock" bands. Some of the best punk/indie music (terms that mean different things to different people- but we'll proceed assuming that these are the people who listen to it) is greatly reminiscent of KC, and has the aggression and craziness that KC have forgone in recent years for structure and technology. Some bands to check out: Don Caballero June of 44 Drive Like Jehu Breadwinner Jumbo Rachel's A Minor Forest I used to work with Mike Banfield of Dan Caballero and he was a huge fan of KC, and they have the craziest drummer I've ever seen (hits anything and everything and sometimes plays with small baseball bats). These are just a few bands that occur to me off the top of my head, but they are all great bands that receive little mainstream attention despite being big sellers in the indie world. And, as any Crimhead will agree, we like that just fine. Cheers, Chris -- ________________________________________ | Chris McGrath | | | | H: (602) 275-3598 | | W: (602) 925-7829 | | | | email: mcgrac at master dot tds-az dot lmco dot com | |----------------------------------------| | "Your inspiration is a memory that you | | know you never had." | | -Rocket From The Crypt | |________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:01:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Sullivan Subject: KC DE CD question for Mr. Fripp Since we're hashing out various favorite 'extramusical' bits of the Crimso catalog (e.g. the 'oboe again' part at the end of Islands, now apparently restored to the DE CD after being mistakenly left off), I might as well ask our fearless leader: Why'd you lop Bruf's plaintive 'Can we do one more immediately?' off the end of DE Lark's Tongues in Aspic CD? -S. ------------------------------ From: Charles Jowett Subject: RE: leftist punks Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:30:45 -0400 >It is said that one famous punk (one of the guys from the Sex Pistols, I think) >even was known to wear an "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt. That was Johnny Rotten. Charles (a Sex Pistols and Robert Fripp Fan) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 15:44:43 -0600 From: vexchang at eagle dot wbm dot ca (Mike Spindloe) Subject: whatever you heard first I find this is often the case with live recordings too. If you are familiar with the studio recording first, subsequent exposure to a live recording leaves you with the impression that the live version is 'missing' finishing touches and maybe even a bit sloppy. Conversely, if you are familiar with a live recording of a song / piece first then you often find the studio version somewhat dry and lifeless, lacking energy. It's another manifestation of that old human resistance to change / clinging on to familiarity thing. Anyone else find this? Absolutely. The one example which comes to mind is that of "Yessongs," which I owned for a couple of years before picking up "Fragile" etc. I don't know why I even bothered, because i STILL listen to "Yessongs" but couldn't even tell you any more which of those songs come from which original albums ("Close To The Edge" being the obvious exception). My first posting to ET just happens to be about...Yes. How ironic. Cheers, Mike Spindloe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 14:58:12 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Re: Leftists? >From: Scott Hamrick > >The crusade against prog rock in the '70s was indeed led partly by people >with a leftist agenda. Among the ignorant leaders of this witch hunt were >the punk bands of the late '70s. These bands were reacting against what >they percieved as a dead-end future due to England's economic troubles, and >at the same time, the popularity of progressive rock bands such as Pink >Floyd, Genesis and ELP. It is said that one famous punk (one of the guys >from the Sex Pistols, I think) even was known to wear an "I hate Pink >Floyd" T-shirt. So? That's all true -- what's wrong with that? The punks were "ignorant" because they protested the excesses of ELP, etc. and the brutal class structure of British society? Those are highly defensible views. Punk had to happen --at least, SOMETHING had to happen. If you ask me, rock music never was so stale as it was in 1976. I have between 2000-2500 albums, and yet I only own 20 or so from that year. Crappy, crappy year for music. Beyond the emergence of the Ramones, Graham Parker and Patti Smith (and maybe Songs in the Key of Life...heh), not much happening at all. The punk explosion of 1977 was a welcome breath of fresh air. And Johnny Rotten/Lydon of the Pistols wore an anti-Floyd shirt, yes. Imagine that. Eb ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:09:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: Liner Notes In the latest ET (#369) Sid Smith suggested that DGM put out collector's edition liner notes for the entire KC catalogue, with comments by Fripp, old photos, etc. If such things could appear at the snap of Fripp's fingers, then it might be a good idea. But Fripp must be involved with these things, and since these things take time, that means time away from the guitar. I know I speak for many an ETer when I say that _that_ is a bad idea. The more time Fripp spends with the guitar, the more likely he is to make music--and the more likely he is to make music, the sooner we'll get to hear it on a new release. In short, when we fetishize the artist, we forgo the music. Justin -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ "I'm sitting with a philosopher in the garden; he says again and again, 'I know that that's a tree,' pointing to a tree that is near us. Someone else arrives and hears this, and I tell him: 'This fellow isn't insane. We are only doing philosophy.'" --- Wittgenstein, _On Certainty_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:34:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Justin Weinberg Subject: PT / PF Some have said that Porcupine Tree sounds like Pink Floyd. I have PT's two latest albums (_Sky Moves Sideways_ and _Signify_). Of the two, parts of _Sky_ do sound more like Pink Floyd than they do any other band. But it would be a mistake to pigeonhole PT as a PF retread. Most of their albums are sonically diverse, mixing atmospheric rock with ambient scapes, occasional prog riffs, and some pulsing electronic dance-like music. Also, unlike PF, there's very little, if any, bluesiness in PT's music. Finally, PT's drumming (and beat-phrasing in general) is many-times better than the god-awful plodding of most of the Pink Floyd catalogue. Porcupine Tree's music may not be for all King Crimson fans. But ruling Porcupine Tree out because you dislike Pink Floyd would be like ruling out King Crimson because you dislike the Beatles. Justin -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 97 19:44:33 From: drj_saro Subject: left, right, right? wrong! *------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 97 14:53:58 BST From: Scott Hamrick <> Subject: leftist punks While I haven't read (or even seen) the book on progressive rock by Macan, I must disagree with one of Julius Saroka's "points of contention" (ET 367) with the book. Saroka says: "(other key points of contention are. . . his tying in the anti-prog attitude of some critics with an alleged "leftist agenda".)" The crusade against prog rock in the '70s was indeed led partly by people with a leftist agenda. Among the ignorant leaders of this witch hunt were the punk bands of the late '70s. These bands were reacting against what they percieved as a dead-end future due to England's economic troubles, and at the same time, the popularity of progressive rock bands such as Pink Floyd, Genesis and ELP. It is said that one famous punk (one of the guys from the Sex Pistols, I think) even was known to wear an "I hate Pink Floyd" T-shirt. In an article on the band UK in the September 21, 1978 issue of Rolling Stone, Bill Bruford himself says: "The way rock is being defined in England right now, I'm certainly not a rock drummer and never have been. Rock there is about protest, unemployment, the welfare state. I'm a nice middle-class boy, and I'm not a rock drummer if you define it like that." Scott Hamrick *------------------------------ just because some of the critics who didn't like prog were leftists, it is fallacious to assume that they didn't like prog _because_ they were leftists. what bothers me is the attribution of an _agenda_. what leftist goal is to be acheived by attacking prog? (while there may be a leftist goal to be acheived by attacking the 'business' of rock, that is not the issue here.) additionally, there were significant members of what might loosely be termed the 'Prog community' that were leftists as well, so where does that leave your (& Macan's) theory? *------------------------------------- Name: Julius J. SAROKA E-mail: drj_saro Date: 4/9/97 Time: 7:44:33 PM This message was sent by Chameleon (in the Shadow of the Night) *------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Bradley Stewart Cook Subject: Fan-Freakin-Tastic Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 00:51:45 -0500 (CDT) I was in the libarary here at Texas A&M University today and I punched up "Fripp" on the electronic card catalog system. It was just a moment of whimsy and I didn't expect to find anything major. Was I ever wrong. They had some Fripp/Eno stuff but the real find was the laserdisc. It was a Japanese release called "Careful With That Axe Vol. 2 - Robert Fripp." Apparently these were some kind of "guitar heroes" series of movies. It was released in 91 and was produced by Bob Carruthers and Prod/Directed by Patrick Kelly. Writing on cover was all in Japanese and all the parts with Fripp talking (a substantial amount) had subtitles in Japanese (Fripp was talking in his own dialect of English of course) I have not seen this on the discography. IT is fan-freakin-tastic. Tons of footage of Fripp w/ the Crafties. (which included a 1990 version of all the present members of the CGT) And several complete Crimson songs. ALso lots of footage of Robert talking about various aspects of Crimson and his other music stuff. Lots of stuff about craft. Here's the list of footage: Bicycling to Afganistan (entire song) 21st Century Schizoid Man (not entire song, but great footage none the less...Robert soloing...Cross pickin his fiddle...Billy B...etc) Neal and Jack and Me The Sheltering SKy (both of these are fantastic footage of early eighties Crimso...amazing sound and picture quality...don't know what this is taken from. During Sheltering Sky Bruford is walking around the stage with slit drum in one hand and playing it with the other...he is also bobbing his head in his version of the orphan salute...excellent footage of Fripp playing up close...They don't show entire Sheltering Sky, but a very sizable chunk) Easy Money (73 archive footage ..once again good quality) Asturias (playing with league of Crafties...sitting around in this room..looks like either practice or an extremely advanced guitar craft clinic. I think it is the former) Fragments of Skylab (fantastic...ethereal) Then they show Fripp demoing the NST and then the Crafties going through "1st primary exercise" up and down the neck pretty rapidly. Askesis Blue Balls Ricer Car This Yes (w/ Toyah singing I think) Rhythm of the Universe Easy Money (short clip) All of the footage on this (especially the Crafty stuff) is fantastic. The Crafties are all playing in this amazingly zombie like stance. The eighties Crimso footage was an especially nice treat. Levin looks so much more graceful now. Some interesting comments from RObert on the disc.. At one point he was talking about Starless with a lot of passion as Starless was playing in the background...the last thing he said about it was "I would LOVE to play that piece of music again." with heavy emphasis on "love." He said this very passionately. Talked about how the NST hit him in Sept. of 1983 as he was lying in a sauna at the Apple Health spa in NY. Said that from 1969-1974 Crimso members were NOT paid wages on tour....at all..wasn't figured into the budget. Says a lot more interesting stuff. If you can find this disc I totally recommend snatching it up. Awesome stuff. I wish I owned it. Maybe the library will have a used laserdisc sale and I could get it for 50cents or something...yeah right. ANyway...just thought I would attempt to share this wonderful surprise that I happened upon today...all because of whimsy. DigMe Brad bradcook at tamu dot edu ------------------------------ From: Bradley Stewart Cook Subject: Islands/Thrak Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 01:09:52 -0500 (CDT) I too have always loved the part of Islands with the strings warming up...especially the beep-beep-beep that interrupts. I don't know why I find it so appealing...maybe the contrast of those rich notes they just begin to hit all together with the sudden electronic sound. Anyway...it always makes me want to get to the auditorium a bit early when the local symphony plays just to hear them warm up...KC has made me a fan of the symphony warm up. Wackiness abounds... Also..about Thrak v. Vrooom..I've always enjoyed the songs on the Vrooom ep more than the versions on Thrak. The song I find the biggest difference in is Vrooom. The version from the ep is fantastic. More rich and full than the Thrak version. Especially in the breaks...the guitar sounds really rich and full as does the bass on the Vrooom version...kind of takes you away whereas on the Thrak version of Vrooom (and the B'Boom version) the guitar sounds "tinny" and more thin. I remember being a bit dissappointed hearing Thrak's version of Vrooom. That's ok thought because when I listen to Vrooom ep I get to listen to Cage and When I Say Stop, Continue. DigMe Brad bradcook at tamu dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 08:53:57 BST From: nickl at lsi-logic dot co dot uk (nick loebner) Subject: Re: leftist punks It is important to recognise that the prog vs punk situation should not be reduced to a right vs left analogy. Undeniably the punk movement was based on working class youth (although quickly adopted by middle class musicians and mnanagers and the record industry as a whole). The movement was is the strictest sense "reactionary". i.e. it grew as a reaction to depressed economic conditions and dissillusionment. Punk bands would rebel against most icons of the establishment. Whilst dinosaurs such as Yes, Genesis and Pink Floyd were extremely unfashionable at this time, there were by no means singled out. I seem to remember for example that The Clash vowed never to appear on Top of the Pops (hardly a shrine for the prog world!). And whilst The Clash were one of the left-of-centre bands there was also a very strong fascist trend in the punk movement. Both the Pistols and Siouxsie and the Banshees flirted with Nazism (not just the swastikas, but some verbal outbursts) andd even "those nutty boys" Madness had a large BNP (British National Party) following - although, to give them credit, they did their best to distance themselves from this element. Conversely there were some staunchly left-of-centre progressive bands, Henry Cow and the whole RIO scene, of course. Although most were and still are fairly apolitical, centrist or vaguely conservative. Ironically, whilst elements of the Punk movement sought to destroy the rock establishment and rock dinosaurs the real casualties were the struggling progressive bands (National Health et al) whose record companies rapidly severed relations, whilst the big guns (who could most obviously be associated with the establishment) were able to survive. Aw bugger! (UK TV joke). - Nick. +-----------------------------------------------------+ | Nick Loebner | | email: nickl at lsi-logic dot co dot uk | | phone (days): 01344-413297 | | (eves): 0181-278-2910 | | | +-----------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 97 02:29:53 -0700 From: 12.4::brianmc at cs dot man dot ac dot uk (Brian McNeil) Subject: Epitaph - The playback lottery? Just like Robert Cervero, I too never managed to see the '69 KC. However, in my case even if I had I doubt if I would have appreciated it - being born February that year. I still thoroughly enjoyed the playback. As I have seen some gripes in recent issues of ET, I will briefly relate how I got invited... I was properly introduced to KC about four years ago, and was stunned with the sheer power and energy of the music. Since the start of '96 I've been working in Brussels. I couldn't believe my luck when flying back from visiting family & friends in Scotland, I noticed a tiny advert in the in-flight magazine for KC playing in Bxl - I *had* to go. The gig was impressive, having never hear the CGT I was very impressed by them, then KC came on and simply blew me away (I'd never heard Thrak Attack so had NO idea what to expect). Anyway, after that I sent a short email to DGM asking for my thanks/appreciation to be passed on to the two bands. Several months later my invitation to the playback arrived, obviously I'd been added to the right mailing list. Deciding that I should be a little better informed, and as my first foray onto the internet in about 10 years, I went looking for KC stuff - as a result I found ET. (BTW Despite pushing items like 60 of separation and band anagrams beyond the bounds of reason, I feel it is an interesting and informative forum - Thanks for it Toby). So, I got there in a back-to-front way compared to most, I think if you got to the playback through ET there was some degree of lottery to it, after all, it did cost DGM a substantial amount to lay on the event - even though we supplied the little beasts (in my case GuyLian Belgian pralines as my baking isn't up to much). Judging by the number of beasties there, I suspect that the DGM office probably ended up eating leftover cake for the following week! I felt privileged to be asked to such an event, my thanks to DGM for organising it in real style, to the band for producing those stunning performances (albeit about 28 years ago), and to Dave Singleton for devoting 6 months of his life to resurrecting it. As an answer to a point raised in ET#353 by James MacKenzie Crawford, there are a lot of us with a liking for Fripp & Zappa, seemed quite obvious at the playback - you could have held a lookalike competition for either of them! Finally, a plea for information, I'm trying to work as the sound engineer with a friend's band, there is guitar craft - but I'm looking for a course to improve my 'sound' craft (preferably in the UK). Email any info directly please. Brian McNeil. * Burying your head in the sand will not prevent * * you from seeing you are in the desert. * ------------------------------ From: fsteama at macline dot co dot uk (Mike Goode) Subject: Thanks to DGM! My email a short while back in reply to moans about not being able to attend the recent Epitaph playback, brought an unexpected surprise in the post this week - the complete four-CD Epitaph box set courtesy DGM! The accompanying letter reads: 'We are all concerned that you never received a ticket to the playback. After checking our email box carefully, there is no record of your reply with your mailing address having been received by us. When we hadn't back from you, we should have contacted you again asking whther or not you were going to attend the playback. Unfortunately, we have a very small staff and we simply ran out of time. As an apology, we are sending you Epitaph. We hope that you will accept it on behalf of the entire DGM staff. We also hope that this lack of communication in no way reflects on King Crimson or on Robert Fripp..." I have already mailed a private note of thanks to DGM but thought that the list should see what nice people the DGM actually are! Incidentally, the one thing that the box set really rams home is the DGM mail order department. For some reason, I'd always overlooked this service... now what I really want (really really want) is a nice baggy Crimso T-shirt for the summer... Mike! PS. I have been aware of Porcupine Tree for quite a while now and have always found their albums to be a little disappointing. The groove they follow is very similar to that of Ozric Tentacles (but not half as good). I can see the very slight Floyd references but for the life of me cannot see the KC similarity. IMO anyone who bought one of their albums expecting Crimson would be disappointed... on the other hand, buy one of their albums anyway - music like this being made today deserves our support! PS.2 The upcoming Greg Lake anthology is supposed to contain some unreleased KC rarities. Has anyone any info on this? ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #370 ********************************