Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #352 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 352 Saturday, 22 February 1997 Today's Topics: Crimson Underground Re: Under The Sky Ian McDonald & Under the Sky Help a Drummer Get a New Organ 'Yes' CDs for exchange Dismissing Fripp Andy, Revees and Bobby & the Barnburners Happy 350th! & Fripp/Zappa Has the excrimite hit the air conditioner? Stick music Re: Elephant Talk Digest #350 Various replies and comments Re: 6 Degrees (Digest 351) a timid statement new material 6 Degrees/Rush & Weird Al t Re: 6 Degrees... 6 degrees to KC Supplies are limited so call now...... The proposed King Crimson tribute A Modest Proposal Bootleg decisions Re: Elephant Talk Digest #351 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- ********************************************************************** TIPS OF THE DAY: If you want to unsubscribe, send mail to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, containing the word "HELP". Use the et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk address ONLY for posts. ********************************************************************** Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 11:45:21 -0800 From: Christopher Jepson Subject: Crimson Underground You want weird connections? How about King Crimson to the Velvet Underground in *two* steps? This should be easy for anyone with a serious King Crimson problem... for those of you who want to play along at home, stand on your head in a bucket of piranha fish (Monty Python) Robert Fripp of King Crimson | | +--> Played on "Golden Hours" (Eno, _Another Green World_) | | John Cale of Velvet Underground ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 19:35:58 GMT From: alex at membrane dot univ-rouen dot fr (Stephane Alexandre) Subject: Re: Under The Sky Dear Elephant Talkers, In ET 350 Rolando Michelazzi mention the problem with the credit of the song "Under the sky". There was several post about this lately and I think, it is time to clarify things (at least an attempt). What do we know from the story of "Under the sky"? 1) Here are the quote from the "Frame by frame" (or "The Young peerson's guide to KC") booklet regarding this song : June 7 : July Dyble and Ian Mc Donald visit and join G,G & F which become a quintet. Several demos are made at home, including "I talk to the wind" and "Under the sky". July : July Dyble leaves G,G & F a quartet. Peter Sinfield introduced as lyricist by his friend, Ian Mc Donald. 2) From the Japan CD rereleased (text tranlated by Sy Park, Thanks to Ryan Sutter who post it in ET 236). ...this line up with I. Mc Donald and J. Dyble recorded 3 songs and one of them "I talk to the wind" was later included in "A young person's...". The remaining 2, "Under the sky" and "Drop in", recorded after J. D in a month left remain unreleased. However, the song "Under the sky" written by Mc Donald and Sinfield, later saw the light of day on Sinfield solo's album "Still" 3) From the UK rereleased (text by John Tracy from Decca) ...the 28th and 29th of October a final 3 track session was authorized. A P. Giles composition "She is loaded" -...- and 2 Fripperies, "Why don't you just drop in?" and "Under the sky" were the exertions. Here are the references. The japanese text seems to have a few discrepancies from the other document and I do not really trust it. From the FbF booklet we learn that a first version of the song has been recorded before Sinfield joins. But we have the last sentence in the booklet by R. Fripp "Some of the mistakes incluted are deliberate; some are incidental". Then shall we trust the booklet. The question is still who wrote the song? Now let compare both versions the one recorded at Decca and the Still version. Let start by the text : There is some minor change but nothing really serious (few words are changed, one verse is repeated twice with one word change). If Sinfied wanted to rerecord the song for his album we might assume that the text is by Sinfield. The music : The changes are major. The melody is slower on the Decca version than on the Still's one. The melody of the chorus is totally changed on the Still's version. The background music is full of Fripp guitar on the Decca version with only some flute lines added in the chorus. The Still's version is full of flute and mellotron. There is a new musical introduction and new musical bridges for flute which are undoubtedly by Mc Donald. Then I would say that the Decca version was written by Fripp, the harmony being rewritten by Mc Donald for the Sinfield's album. The melody after all came from the poetry. I finish this by a comparison between "I talk to the wind" and the Decca version of "Under the sky" which were originally recorded the same day. As I said before "Under the sky" is full of Fripp guitar with only a flute line added in the chorus. "I talk to the wind" is full of flute and mellotron with only a small guitar line added in the chorus. These two song appears to be two sides of the embryonic Crimso, the Fripp side and the Mc Donald side. Sorry for the lenght of this post, I just tried to clarify things. Stephane. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:46:07 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Cervero Subject: Ian McDonald & Under the Sky This post was prompted by the following question, from Rolando Michelazzi, in ET#350 regarding Under the Sky: >.... the song "Under the sky" firstly appeared in 1973 in Peter >Sinfield's album "Still" with songwriting credited to McDonald & Sinfield; >the same song was included, as bonus track, in the 1992 UK re-issue of "The >Cheerful Insanity of GG&F", but the booklet reports "composed by Fripp". I >think the GG&F sleeve notes are wrong because: - the song itself isn't in >the Fripp-style; - accordingly to the notes by John Tracy (in the same GG&F >CD booklet), the trio was joined Ian McDonald on 7th June 1968 and by Pete >Sinfield in July, while "Under The Sky was recorded over the 28th and 29th >of october, so they can have actually wrote the song. According to "A Weird Person's Guide to... King Crimson: Vol. 2", the studio outtake of Under the Sky is a McDonald/Sinfield concoction: "After adding Ian McDonald to their line-up and releasing their last single, the 'clarinet'-version of 'Thursday Morning', Giles, Giles, and Fripp went to the studio again to record three more tracks, only two of them were ever released a few years ago on a rare DEAM-CD which also gave out wrong information about those songs. So Under the Sky is of course no "Frippery" but a pre-version of the song of the same name on Pete Sinfield's Still-LP, written by Ian McDonald and Mr. Sinfield himself"." ...... of course, this comes from a German bootleg (Invasions Unlimited), though the CD materials seem carefully researched, at least by bootleg standards. I agree the song is not Fripp-esque -- it has more the lofty playfulness and slight surrealism of other McDonald tunes (Flight of the Ibis) and McDonald-Sinfield collaborations (I Talk to the Wind, Birdman). By the way, it would appear that McDonald got shortchanged in the credits for "Cadence and Cascade". In the Wake of Poseidon attributes Cadence and Cascade to Fripp and Sinfield. Yet the McDonald and Giles 1971 LP states that Flight of the Ibis is the original melody for Cadence and Cascade. Though these rather sound like two different songs, and Fripp definitely laid out unique guitar riffs for Cadence and Cascade, the some of McDonald's underlying melodic contributions are still there. I take the late-1969/1970 period to have been one of strained relationships between Fripp and McDonald, I'm sure in no small part because McDonald willfully left the band (something which he later publicly regretted). I find it heartening that in a number of recent public statements by both Robert Fripp and Greg Lake, McDonald's often underappreciated and understated contributions to the success of ITCOTCK and the original KC line-up were acknowledged. McDonald practically invented multi-instrumentalism in rock bands (and besides reeds and keyboards could have added guitar craftsmanship to the first line-up, which according to Lake was taboo as long as Fripp was at the helm). Was there a rocker with such musical breadth before McDonald? I hope Ian McDonald is able to attend the release of Epitaph at the March 15 shindig, as Fripp has suggested he will, for he as much as anyone deserves recognition for that incredible six-month period of musical energy and creativity. One gets a sense of just how much a watershed release ITCOTCK was by juxtaposing it against other '69 rock LPs, like the soundtrack to Woodstock or stuff by Cream. As a first-year college student at the time who had long been toiling in Stones-influenced garage bands, this album, more than anything, caused me to make a 180-degree about-face in musical tastes. As a tribute to what was some of the best music ever by one of the best line-ups ever, the Epitaph tea party is a must-attend event for any Crimson nut like me. Thank god for American airlines' strike threat triggering transatlantic airfare wars. The timing couldn't have been better. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:38:30 -0800 (PST) From: billforth at earthlink dot net (William Forth) Subject: Help a Drummer Get a New Organ ET readers may know drummer Mark Craney from his work with Jethro Tull, Jean Luc Ponty, Tower of Power, Gino Vanelli and others. Mark is very ill and in need of an immediate kidney and pancreas transplant. To help raise funds for his recovery, the Woodland Hills Drum Club is presenting a benefit concert, "A Day With Mark's Brothers" at The Guitar Center / Hollywood, California, on Sunday, May Fourth, 1997. We'll be playing in the parking lot (and giving away lots of drums and hardware donated for the event.) If you can't attend the concert, but would like to send a contribution in any amount or currency, please send checks or money order made payable to "Mark Craney" to: A New Day Magazine c/o David Rees 75 Wren Way Farnborough Hants. GU14 8TA ENGLAND Thanks and best wishes, Bill Forth [ I'd just like to point out that this is genuine. It's sad to have to say it, but given the current goings-on on the Internet I feel I need to. Anything associated with Bill Forth is guaranteed to be 100% solid. So, I say to the more than 6000 of you ETers out there: imagine what $1 each could do. -- Toby ] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:29:03 +0000 From: Neil Talbott Subject: 'Yes' CDs for exchange Hello, team... I've got a new Yes 'Keys to Ascension' (2CD set - live '96) I'd like to swap. Also Yes 'Union' which features Bill Bruford and Tony Levin on some tracks, and 'Fragile' which features Bill again -all v.g.c. I'm looking to exchange for any of following on CD: Robert's Soundscapes (any volume will do), Trey Gunn -either DGM release, Kronos Quartet (Black Angels or Night Prayer), Tooth Mother, Europa String Choir, Zappa 'Ahead of their Time', or send me list for consideration. A big cheer to Toby Howard and his friends for moderating such a monstrous newsletter! and long may it reign... [ "Monstrous" is a good word. Thanks. -- Toby ] -- Neil Talbott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:19:05 -0500 From: sid smith <106050 dot 2211 at compuserve dot com> Subject: Dismissing Fripp Neil Talbot's comment about Frank Zappa never having heard of Robert Fripp reminded me of an experience I had when I was a young long haired lad in my teens up in canny Newcastle. This is a true story with no exaggeration. I guess it must have been sometime around 1973 and West, Bruce & Laing were playing in town at Newcastle's City Hall. A group of us went along to see them and to shake our heads with wild enthusiasm in what we called The dandruff Exchange. Once the gig had finished, we piled around to the stage door and waited to me the power trio. As I've mentioned in previous posting, we always went behind stage as a matter of course. Once the main crowd had died down and the autographs had long been signed we overheard the roadies mention the hotel the band were staying at. Fortunately, it was only a ten minute walk and so we set off. We enquired at reception to see if the band would let us in for a chat. Amazingly they did and we were ushered into a deserted restaurant where West Bruce and Laing were sitting. We gathered round and they offered us seats, food and drink and other substances, which we consumed with much gusto. Eventually I found myself sitting opposite Leslie West. West it must be said at that time in his life was one large person and his ability to consume anything was legendary. I mentioned to him that my favourite band was King Crimson and I ventured an opinion that Robert Fripp was a truly wonderful guitarist (or "geet gud" as we Geordies are prone to say). At this the corpulent West nearly choked on his food, beer and cigarette which all happened to be in his mouth at the same time. "ROBBERTT FRRIIPPP!!!!!!!" he shrieked, spraying me full in the face with the aforementioned comestibles. "ROBBERTT FRRIIPPP . . .I've forgotten what Robert Fripp knows, pal HA!" Clearly angry with my choice he then proceeded to shout to Messers Bruce and Laing "ROBBERTT FRRIIPPP" This was then followed by funny grunts and constipated noises, which I took to be West imitating Fripps playing. After this, my fledging relationship with West came to a rapid conclusion and not too long after, we were politely asked to leave presumably before the cocaine and nubile women arrived. The general tone of the conversation up to that point had been about life and the road in a rock band and I was limbering up to ask for a job as trainee roadie. Sadly following my mention of Fripp, my hopes were dashed and the very next day found myself back in the employment of the North East Co-op. So, when I say the music of Robert Fripp has had a profound effect on my life you can see what I mean. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 17:54:35 +0000 From: Martin Bradburn Subject: Andy, Revees and Bobby & the Barnburners Dear Team/RF > From: vanvalnc at is2 dot nyu dot edu (Chris Van Valen) 1) "The Andy Summers Trio" is playing at the Knitting Factory in NYC on 3/5. Anyone know if Tony is playing with him? Tony is not playing with him. The two other trio members are Mike Greg Bisonette & a bassist Jerry Watts (on SYNAESTHESIA). The dates acording to Pollstar are 03/06/97 -03/09 New Yory NY Knitting Factory 03/11 -03/11 Washington DC Blues Alley 03/12/97 Cambridge MA House Of Blues 03/27/97 West Hollywood CA House Of Blues Tony's web page says he just finished doing tracks on Andy's new album, but a proposed summer tour with Andy and Stewart Copeland has fallen through. He also mentions sessions with Steve Stevens (Billy Idol) and Terry Bozzio!. It'll be a rocker! Someone mentioned Bowie w/ Reeves G. on SNL. I didn't expect him to play Scary Monsters like RF. He played it like Reeves Gabrels. And a pretty tasty little cake it was to. I've often thought that as Adrian is such a good compliment /foil for RF, Reeves would provide an interesting partner in crime. To RF 1. To further explore the possibilities of performance how about a KC,Soundscape, LoCG or DGM showcase, done primarily via invite, like the Epitaph playback. This might provide an audience that is somewhat more aware of their/your aims and decrease the risk of a puncture? ("This is only a test, had this been a real experience you would have been instructed to shutup,listen & hear, maybe") 2. What do you feel are the differences in your playing in KC as opposed to Soundscaping and Guitar Craft (Acoustic). You seem to have incorporated more Soundscaping into Crimson than acoustic playing. The feeling of seeing Bill/Pat do the Drum intro at the Horde Show (Great Woods) was the explosive start of (IMHO) one of the best Crimson sets I have ever attended. It made me think (along with Adrian's Acoustic Album) what a acoustic (Please no MTV unplugged Flames) Crimson set might be like. Hummm.... 3. Vernon Reid is playing the Knitting Factory every Monday in March. 4. If Van Damme & Segal don't blow your hair back have you seen Jacques Reno in (sp?) "The Professional". Not as lighthearted but a great performance. 5. If your in Nashville with Adrian and Tony how's about a C&W tune or two, Walbash Cannonball was such a tease (with a drawl "Shoot this Bobby boy talks funny, but his pickin' sure could burn the barn down!") (BR-549!) Deep down in South Neurotica - Martin Bradburn <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> Martin G. Bradburn Heartlab Inc <> <> Senior Database Engineer 101 Airport Rd <> <> mgb at heartlab dot com Westerly, RI 02891<> <> mgb at brainiac dot com(home) (401) 596-0592 <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> <> 'Freedom and constraint are two aspects of the same necessity, <> <> which is to be one and no other' - Antoine de Saint-Exupery <> <>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:00:47 -0500 From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Happy 350th! & Fripp/Zappa Happy 350th issue, Toby! Glad this has been around for so long... THe statement about Frank Zappa not hearing Robert Fripp's work, although at first sounds implausible, is probable. In the _Lost Episodes_ album, it has been said that he listened to things like sea shanties. I think Zappa prbably didn't feel interested in listening to a lot of rock music, and so I can see how he might have not heard Fripp's work. Mr. Fripp, have you heard any of Frank Zappa's work? (Just curious) --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:46:06 -0500 (EST) From: "Alexander L. Kaufman" Subject: Has the excrimite hit the air conditioner? Dear Mr. Fripp, Over the past two months I have been studying abroad and was unaible to access my email account at school. It was my second trip to Israel; it is possibly the most beautiful yet tragic place in the world, climbing Massada in the early morning hours so as to witness the sunrise while on the summit was the most indescribable experiences in my life. Lo and behold, upon my return I found my new messages had increased dramaticaally. It has taken me several days to read each ET post, and I must say I enjoyed every minute. The relationship between the fan/enthusiest/artist is one of the more comlex issuesin the music industry, with publishing/copyright legalities, censorship, and the relationship between the artist/record company being of equal/greater/lessor importance depending on the fan/enthusiest/arist. What makes this all the more complicated is the overlapping of the above variables while trying to be a complete artist - to be a complete artist, therefore, one needs not only discipline, but patience, reason, intelligence, and balls of steel. Would you take it as a compliment, Robert, if I say you have all of these qualities? If yes: thank you, thank you. If no: so it goes. After reading the heap of issues my mind, as you can guess, was reeling. I felt that I had just: 1) Finished reading Thomas Pynchon's _V._ Both the novel and this digest offer an unlimited number of problems, solutions, and hypothese all loosely fitting aroud a very general plot/scheme. 2) Given birth to a three headed monster. 3) Relived every experience of King Crimson and music in general that had even the slightest impact on me. From first listening to KC six years ago (_Lizard_ was my initiation) to seeing the band twice in Philly and once in Hershey in Hershy, to playing 1st Clarinet in my High School production of "Fiddler on the Roof" five years ago. Music does shape an inividual into being a more complete person, without music I firmly believe that I would have no discipline in my life in terms of education and social behavior. Many thanks, Mr. Fripp, for your very personal beliefs which you share with us. Sincerely, Alex Kaufman ------------------------------ From: argus at gptmail dot globalpac dot com (argus) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 20:57:37 +0000 Subject: Stick music Hey gang. . . There is a CD of music by various Chapman Stick players called "Tappistry", and a couple of the tunes sound *very* KC influenced. The rest of the CD is very good, especially since it's interesting to hear how other Stick players approach the instrument after years of enjoying TL's playing and now TG's playing. If anyone has this disc, am I wrong or does "Orchestra on a 2x4" sound very inspired by recent Crimson??? In light of recent discussion about the KC tribute recording, "Tappistry" has a few cuts which (at least to my ears) sound inspired by some elements of Crimson compositions, and at the very least some of TL's playing in the band. Anyone interested in this can email kcstick at qnet dot com for details. --- --- --- --- --- --- argus/Jason Rubenstein http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~argus argus at globalpac dot com argus at rci dot ripco dot com ------------------------------ From: argus at gptmail dot globalpac dot com (argus) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 21:35:15 +0000 Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #350 The official bootlegs (!!) are great.. go DGM, keep 'em coming. Although they don't capture the drama of the entire performance, the artist/audience energy and all of that, they do capture the musical energy and at-that-moment interpretation of and inspirations underlying the pieces in the performance. I for one don't *necessarily* need to know what inspired whom at what moment to enjoy the recording of the performance. There is an innate energy to music, performed live and in front of people, which is communicated very fairly on the recorded medium. Yeah yeah, nothing beats *being there*, but in and of itself, and listened to with the intention and understanding that "this is what this is: a recording of a live event", a listener can still be moved (sometimes greatly) by the music, by the sudden unexpected and pleasant surprise of a inspired melody in the guitar, or the other guitar, or the stick, or the other stick, (!), or the combined "movement" of the group as a whole, etc..as presented through the official bootleg..(where the artist has some control over the sound quality of the thing!). So hey, KC & DGM, keep 'em coming!! --- --- --- --- --- --- argus/Jason Rubenstein http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~argus argus at globalpac dot com argus at rci dot ripco dot com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 00:48:10 -0500 (EST) From: DanKirkd at aol dot com Subject: Various replies and comments Team, A number of recent postings deserve a few replies and comments. Rob Messinger wrote: >>All this talk about trying to approach Fripp reminds me of the Farside >>comic strip in which two apes are sitting under a tree eating bananas and >>one says to the other "You know, Sid, I really like bananas . . . I mean, I >>know that's not profound or nothin' . . . Heck! We ALL do . . . But for >>me, I think it goes much more beyond that." That's such a funny strip (panel) it's even funny without the drawing of the apes! >>I've found that most of the tabs are close interpretations at best and >>completely misguided at worst. But I'd have to say they are at the very least well intentioned. The ET Web tabs are not intended to be exact transcriptions, but interpretations by enthusiasts. If anyone can provide alternative or "better" tabs please feel free to submit them. Eric Henry Wynter Best suggests: >>So, on the top of my Christmas wish >>list is that those rascally regal red ones explore the musical potential of >>their acoustic prowess in their next recorded celebration! I second this emotion. One of the distinguishing differences between 70's KC and later KC was the occasional foray into acoustic guitar or other non-electrically based instruments (woodwinds, strings). Without rehashing, the double trio could unplug for a tune or two I'm sure. GP mused: >>Does that mean that I have six degrees of separation >>between myself and KC? If one considers that most associations being presented are that person A did something with person B, who did something with person C, etc... I'd have to consider that everyone who has ever attended a KC concert has 1 degree of separation from each of the players inasmuch as they would have shared in a music making/listening relationship we've all been studiously investigating in these very pages. Kevin Holm-Hudson investigated exit groove messages in vinyl: >>I don't know if this aspect of KC lore has been previously >>discussed, but you can look at some of the aphorisms he left directly on >>his vinyl recordings and find out how meticulously planned his career has >>been, at least in the early 1980s. Fascinating! Its these inane pieces of information that really makes ET great reading. Really! Robert Fripp writes: >>A suggestion: volunteers to collate a data bank of information on >>various topics. JP has already replied about this. I'd simply like to encourage any ETers who may be withholding faqtoidal information to cough it up! If you think something should be added to the faq let us know. JP writes: >>Perhaps an introduction to Guitar Craft in your own >>current words...? Actually, we just updated the "Introduction to Guitar Craft" article at ET Web, in what I believe are RF's current words. Its on the articles page. Robert further muses: >>Second suggestion: the ongoing debate on the audience / performer >>relationship is building up a goodly amount of considered >>contributions. Who might be able to collate, and summarise, these >>two (with or without standard questionaire)? Having collated gig reviews and such, without the extra burden of summarization, I'd be happy to offer moral support in this endeavor and space on ET Web for the results. I do not feel qualified enough to do otherwise. Anyone wishing to volunteer please contact me. JP writes: >>I don't have the text available to me (the Atari can't read HD floppies) Atari? Maybe that's why updates to the faq have been far and few between! :^) Chris Van Valen wrote: >>4) Good Bowie performance on Saturday Night Live last week (2/8). Did >>"Scary Monsters". But...sorry, Reeves. You're not Bobby. That was this year? Any idea why that specific song was performed? Charity H. Upchurch states: >>I am convinced that Mr. Fripp is a repressed instructor of Rhetoric and >>Composition. I have to agree. RF has written more about his musical theories, observations, and anecdotes, without actually writing a book, than any other musician I can think of. He expresses himself as much through his writings as he does through his music. Those of you concerned that his participation in ET could jeapardize musical output should know that the amount of time he has spent writing is not necessarily excessive. To everything there is a time and place. Obviously, this has been a time for writing. Tom Evans suggests the following book title: >>"Speaking in Flags: My Life in the Semaphore Corps". Fripp >>obviously has quite a catalog hand signals and gestures to communicate a >>wide range of messages. I'm sure even RF has got to crack a smile reading some of these terrifically hilarious suggestions. Mathews, Thomas J. wrote: >>1. the ET homepage: >>http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ >>[...] What is that "Sightings" section about? Well its just a new page at ET Web dedicated to photographs received that have a KC reference to them in some kind of way. Admit it, we all spend a lot of time thinking about this band, sometimes even dreaming about them, so its not unusual for us to associate things we see around us with the band as well. If you've got any contributions, send them in! Heilbronner, Michael says: >>I would like to compile a list of bands that have covered King Crimson >>songs. This is an old thread we haven't seen for a while. You can save yourself some time by checking out the ET Topic Index at ET Web. Although this is no longer being updated, it still has an extensive section referencing KC covers. You can access the digests referenced for details. The index was discontinued when we started the search engines, but because it still presents another way to get at information it still can be useful. BTW, if anyone has any input or suggestions they'd like to make for/about ET Web, please feel free to email me. We're open to anything. Heck we've even added some interviews in Italian! Remember, what makes the site good is the content, and I don't create very much of that, its all submitted by ETers, so keep it coming! Cheers, Dan -- Daniel A. Kirkdorffer Email: DanKirkd at aol dot com The Gallimaufry: http://members.aol.com/dankirkd/ Elephant Talk: http://members.aol.com/etmirror/ Elephant Talk: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ little a: http://members.aol.com/sayaaahh/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:52:54 -0500 (EST) From: Mike Stok Subject: Re: 6 Degrees (Digest 351) Damon Mahon asked: 1) How about Rush? That band has retained its original members pretty much from the beginning, and doesn't bring in outside members or have its members in other bands very much. Any connections anyone? Well Neil Peart plays on a track on Jeff Berlin's Champion album and Jeff plays on some Bruford albums... Also does Leifson play with Levin on some of Gowan's albums? 3) Can anyone make a connection between King Crimson and the New Age-ish group Mannheim Steamroller? Has anybody out there ever HEARD of Mannheim Steamroller? Were their albums engineered by Joe Gastwirt (sp?) who did the re-engineering for Atlantic's Yes remasters which included Bruford (tenuous...) Mike -- mike at stok dot co dot uk | The "`Stok' disclaimers" apply. http://www.stok.co.uk/~mike/ | PGP fingerprint FE 56 4D 7D 42 1A 4A 9C http://www.tiac.net/users/stok/ | 65 F3 3F 1D 27 22 B7 41 stok at psa dot pencom dot com | Pencom Systems Administration (work) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:43:03 -0800 From: Pat von zur Muehlen Subject: a timid statement in all the history of the relationship between performers and enthusiasts was there ever a more formal and appropriate way of communicating with, and giving thanks to a performer, other than applauding at the show, then this very ET thang? i may be out of touch, for new issues of ET seem to come faster than i can read them, and there are some points on which i am fuzzy. but heres this. i beleive that the performer has full rights to set the rules for a performance. ie. print it on the cd or have some one speak to the crowd before hand to outline these rules like: please no applause till after the set, or after each song, or mill about getting drunk and make as much noise as you want( like a Dead show). personally i find your music most akin to the symphony as far as decorum of the audience goes, except maybe with loud screaming during the applause. now i haven't seen much on KC's/Fripp's feelings about crowd behavior during a show so perhaps this is but a windmill. come sancho. as far as fans bugging Fripp elsewhere, he has spoken. let us please respect his wishes and let him have a life or the goose that laid the golden egg etc. plus which we have ET to use to thank him, which he can read in his leasure. lastly i beleive that an armed take over of all the worlds major radio stations with hostages and all that, coordinated together by crim heads for the purpose of a world wide KC/Fripp/Belew rock block, like play nothing but crimson day and night till the swat teams gun us down is exactly what commercial radio needs, ok thats just a joke, and remember that the cadallac is the Robert Fripp of cars. ever your obsiquious enthusiast pete. bu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:37:31 -0500 From: Inkey Pudge Subject: new material Organization: Frog Hollow Day Camp I In one of his recent epics, The Great Roberto wrote: RF: Tomorrow I fly to Nashville to write new material for KC with Adrian and Trey." Me: Good news... I was afraid there'd be another stretch of KC inactivity coming up. II While I thoroughly enjoyed Thrak, I liked Vrooom and the subsequent live releases more. This follows a pattern established by the 72-74 band: I found Starless and Bible Black, The Great Deceiver and USA more to my liking than Lark's Tongues and Red. I guess I prefer things on the raw side as exhibited by live or rehearsal recordings. I would like to encourage Crimso to release the new material from live recordings, either in concert or in the studio with no overdubs. What do other ETers think? --Dave ------------------------------ Date: 20 Feb 1997 12:25:43 -0700 From: "Jim Bricker" Subject: 6 Degrees/Rush & Weird Al t This one's easy... Neil Peart (drummer for Rush) produced and CD called Burning For Buddy (tribute to Buddy Rich), which includes a track by... Bill Bruford - who is in Crimso. How about... Weird Al - Amish Paradise, parody of... (Coolio?) - Gangsta's Paradise, which steals a riff from... Stevie Wonder - Songs in the Key of Life, which includes... Herbie Hancock - whose new CD New Standards includes Mercy Street by... Peter Gabriel - which originally featured bass by... Tony Levin - who is in... Crimso. but that's seven. Can anyone beat it? Regards, Jim Bricker, San Jose CA U.S.A. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 18:07:14 -0500 From: "Weissenburger - Jeremy S." Subject: Re: 6 Degrees... >Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:13:28 -0500 (EST) >From: Damon Mahon >Subject: 6 Degrees > >Sorry, folks, no enlightenment from this ET reader on the rights of >audience/enthusiasts/performers. This is a purely frivolous post dealing >with challenges for the 6 degrees game: Having made links to many bands to Yes, this should be easy... >1) How about Rush? I know three: Rush -> Neil Peart -> "Burning For Buddy" (Buddy Rich tribute) -> Bruford -> Crimso Rush -> Michael Kamen (arrangements for "Nobody's Hero") -> Andrew Jackman [did arrangements on _Power Windows_ and _Hold Your Fire_] -> The Syn -> Chris Squire -> Bill Bruford (drummed on solo album) -> Crimso Rush -> Rupert Hine -> Robert Palmer -> Adrian Belew (I don't know which album he played on of Palmer's, but I know he did...) -> Crimso 2) "Weird Al" Yankovic? "Weird Al" -> Mark Knopfler (played guitar solo on "Money For Nothing/Beverly Hillbillies") -> Dire Straits -> Tony Levin (played on "One World" from _Brothers In Arms_ -> King Crimson >3) Can anyone make a connection between King Crimson and the New Age-ish >group Mannheim Steamroller? Has anybody out there ever HEARD of Mannheim >Steamroller? Don't know the members, so I don't know about this one... --Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 16:02:57 -0800 From: Russ Fischer Subject: 6 degrees to KC from king crimson to rush in a few easy steps: alex lifeson played lead guitar on an album by canadian pop singer gowan (the name of the record eludes me, unfortunately) the bassist on that album was tony levin or... bill bruford plays drums on one track of the "burning for buddy" cd, produced by neal peart c'est ca! Russ ------------------------------ From: "Alias" Subject: Supplies are limited so call now...... Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:37:01 -0600 I was too late to get a copy of Sometimes God Hides. Does anybody want to sell theirs? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 12:59:33 -0500 (EST) From: Otherroad at aol dot com Subject: The proposed King Crimson tribute Regarding this proposed King Crimson tribute by the musicians who read ET, I feel compelled to point out that a similar venture was recently done among the readers of On-Reflection, the mailing list for Gentle Giant fans. The finished product is a double disc set called Giant Tracks that's due for release in just a couple weeks. You can find out all about it at the Gentle Giant home page at: http://www.cs.umass.edu/~barrett/gentlegiant.html They did a really great job utilizing the various talents of the list members, including legal work, cover art, etc. They're initially pressing 1,000 copies, but I understand that advance orders have already eaten up half that number! I bring this up to demonstrate what is really possible with this idea. Good ol' Boppin' Bobby has always managed to challenge us in some way, mostly as listeners challenging our musical concepts. More recently he's begun to challenge us as reading and writing participants in this forum. Now he's challenging us as doers. That he is actually offering to put this album out on DGM if the end result MOVES him is a challenge. And I think the list should rise to that challenge. What have you got to loose? If we only aspire to put together a cassette to share amongst ourselves, then we may miss out on a great opportunity. If, however, we aspire to an actual marketable product, then even if we fail, we still have a neat little cassette to pass amongst ourselves and probably a better cassette than if that had been our only goal to begin with. I would like to get some clarification from Robert, though, on the subject of 'rearrangements.' I really don't think he expects people to perform faithful renditions of the originals. I would hope that what he's looking for are renditions that would approach the originals more in the spirit of adventurousness and risk taking. Could you expound a little further on this, Robert? What leeway can we expect in approaching this material? Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com OtherRoad at aol dot com SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: charity%creighton dot edu at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:55:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: A Modest Proposal With all of this talk about Poison-- how about the ultimate *gag* KC album: King Crimson Plays the Horrible 80s and they could include Asia's "Heat of the Moment" to tease John Wetton:) *is sucked into the black hole of random idiocy* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 21:21:31 -0500 (EST) From: Gideon B Banner Subject: Bootleg decisions All this talk about bootlegs brings another question to mind: Who in KC decides to [try to] prohibit bootlegging? In other words, is it by your choice that bootlegging is not permitted at KC concerts, a choice that the other band members have accepted? Or is it a joint decision made by the group as a whole? And when you are a member of another musical ensemble, who then makes the decision to prohibit/permit bootlegging? When you played with Peter Gabriel, for example, did the knowledge that people might be recording the concert as you performed in any way affect your performance? (I'm going on the assumption here that Peter Gabriel concerts never actively discouraged bootlegging.) These questions are directed both to Robert and to ET as a whole. I simply think that they are questions that naturally arise in the course of this discussion on bootlegging. Because they raise questions of power and influence: who has power within the musical ensemble to make such a decision? who in the audience will disobey such a power structure? And when I speak of "power" here, I do not do so negatively. Such power structures may be necessary and even very fruitful. ------------------------------ From: argus at gptmail dot globalpac dot com (argus) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:35:52 +0000 Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #351 From: ethan taylor sellers wrote: > The Grand Stick has to be a tuning nightmare for this reason. Actually, the Grand Stick (12 strings) and the regular, 10-string Stick are easy to tune and stay in tune once they're there. . . the bass side is (usually) tuned in 5ths and the melody side (usually) in fourths. An NST tuning has the melody side in fifths, with either a third or a fourth at the top. You could run all fifths at the melody side with appropriate care. l8r. . . --- --- --- --- --- --- argus/Jason Rubenstein http://pages.ripco.com:8080/~argus argus at globalpac dot com --- --- --- --- --- --- ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #352 ********************************