Errors-To: et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk Reply-To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Sender: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Precedence: bulk From: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk Subject: Elephant Talk Digest #351 E L E P H A N T T A L K The Internet newsletter for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts Number 351 Wednesday, 19 February 1997 Today's Topics: Short And Sweet fripp&fans Saqqara Dogs Glob-Mob show in Seattle, March 6th Fripp the Hippie enuff ze nuff Fripp's diatribe in ET#345 Julius J. SAROKA response Matt and Brett Replies to Robert the two "Bobs" miscellaneous thoughts NST and the minor third "new standard tuning" KC remixes For the drooling completist.... Andy Summers in NYC keeping my mouth shut Re: Offer for Tribute Selections An Expectation in Motion Tends to Stay in Motion Now, forget all this EXCLUSIVE TONY LEVIN INTERVIEW ON INNERVIEWS! Bret Hart? Boots&Bruford&Borro Test A open letter to RF (in response to ET 342) Fripp redux Closure [RESEND, per request] Telec 4 degrees of Crimso / Marzuki / Nashville 6 Degrees Hook, Line, and Sinker syrius jellophant tawk Re: Bootlegs and Meeting Mr. Fripp Feedback and RF postings Who gets paid (tribute) Re: Elephant Talk Digest #350 ------------------ A D M I N I S T R I V I A --------------------- POSTS: Please send all posts to et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk To UNSUBSCRIBE, or to CHANGE ADDRESS: Send a message with a body of HELP to et-admin at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk, or use the DIY list machine at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/list/ to ASK FOR HELP about your ET subscription: Send a message to: et-help at blackcat dot demon dot co dot uk ETWEB: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/aig/staff/toby/et/ (partial mirror at http://members.aol.com/etmirror/) THE ET TEAM: Toby Howard (Moderator), Dan Kirkdorffer (Webmeister) Mike Dickson (List Admin), and a cast of thousands. The views expressed herein are those of the individual authors. ET is produced using John Relph's Digest 3.0 package. ------------------ A I V I R T S I N I M D A --------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:31:45 -0500 (EST) From: agower at netcom dot ca Subject: Short And Sweet To Fripp & the ET Universe Frankly, the long windedness of ET means that I only read short comments and Fripp's notes. I don't even read all of his. I don't have time to read all the posts or the paper to print them all. I am still interested though. First, to Fripp re: your post in 342 I appreciate your response to my Live Vs. Studio question. I have always found this concept interesting and I feel it can relate much about an artist's attitudes and priorities. I think your answer was well written and provided me with much insight. Another challenging question; if live and studio work reciprocate to improve the band as a whole, why do you favour the first album of each incarnation of KC? Example, Frame By Frame includes all of ITCOTCK and Discipline and the majority of LTIA. Wouldn't the last album of each incarnation bear the creative fruits of the three or so years of recording and performing? I assume it is the spontaneity, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Short questions to Fripp: 1. Sometimes God Hides features "Epitaph". A rare performance of Fripp in KC on acoustic. Why not use more acoustic in KC? Convenience or consideration? 2. Do you listen to your own recordings? (i guess you kind of have to in order to compile live box sets). Do you listen just for the enjoyment. Many other artists differ on this sort of question. Also who do you listen to currently? 3. What does David Bottrill bring to KC? Compare and contrast with Rhett Davies' contributions. Regards, Andy Gower agower at netcom dot ca Vancouver, Canada PS. Anyone out there looking for a funky ass drum loop. Check out McDonald & Giles "Tommorrow's People". Get down and boogie!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:10:33 -0700 From: Jeff Maly Subject: fripp&fans I don't have any deep thesis here. I just want to relate a personal experience. KC played in Colorado Springs (a treat in itself) and the band came out for an encore minus Fripp. They were all bangin away on drums when my wife nudged me. There standing next to us was Robert. Our eyes met, he knew I recognised him and I knew he knew it. Then we both went back to enjoying the show. I assume this is the way Robert would like to do business. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 15:59:47 -0700 From: Eb Subject: Saqqara Dogs If anyone is looking for a copy of the Saqqara Dogs' out-of-print CD Thirst, email me. I have one I don't need anymore. I figure the Dogs' Fripp influence is so obvious that most of you have already heard of this band.... Patiently scrolling past musician-audience relationship posts, Eb ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 97 02:41:34 UT From: "Steve Ball" Subject: Glob-Mob show in Seattle, March 6th Greetings ET readers! The Seattle Guitar Circle and Discipline Global Mobile Records present "Glob-Mob-a-Looza": an evening of Music and Collaboration featuring DGM artists: The California Guitar Trio Trey Gunn Los Gauchos Tony Geballe Plus very special SURPRISE guests... WHEN: Thursday March 6th, 8pm sharp. WHERE: Broadway Performance Hall 1625 Broadway (corner of Broadway and Pine) on Capitol Hill in Seattle TICKETS: Available at Cellophane Square record stores in Seattle and Bellevue, also at the box office on the day of the show. $15 in Advance. Also reservations available via credit card at (206) 688-1772. The Seattle Guitar Circle and Discipline Global Mobile Records are sponsoring a unique, once-in-a-lifetime INTERNATIONAL MUSIC PERFORMANCE EVENT in Seattle featuring spectacular and collaborative performances by four critically-acclaimed groups whose members span four continents and whose rich repertoire spans three centuries! The California Guitar Trio, best known for their stunning performances opening for King Crimson for the past two years, are headlining this showcase concert of Discipline Glob. Mob. recording artists. Also on the bill are Trey Gunn, (Warr Guitar player for King Crimson, David Sylvian, and Tony Childs), Los Gauchos (Argentinean acoustic and electric guitar ensemble) and Tony Geballe (12-string guitarist/composer from NYC). The concert will present a cross section of music from each of the artists on the bill, as well as collaborations between each group, in an ever-shifting musical dynamic offering surprises for both the audience and performers. These world-class players are known for their precise technique in a wide range of musical styles from classical to ambient loop-based sounds (and many points in-between), all played with precision and intensity. The concert will also feature some unpublicized very special guest appearances... The Seattle Guitar Circle is an independent Northwest organization, which promotes concert events and sponsors educational music seminars. The SGC is also sponsoring an intensive weekend retreat for both aspiring beginners and experienced guitarists from March 7-10 in the Seattle area. The weekend retreat activities will be led by the California Guitar Trio, Los Gauchos, and Tony Geballe. I hope to see you at the show! Unfortunately, the 300-seat theatre is bound to sell out quickly, so please buy your tickets early if you wish to attend. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 14:48:37 -0500 From: rhino at indy dot net (rhino) Subject: Fripp the Hippie In ET #343 wrote, >Fripp's main issue (and rightly so) seems to be with the >disrespect people show him and the undue burden the put on him by >essentially forcing him to be friendly and open, even if the situation >calls for him to be otherwise. One of the main reasons that this burden is >placed on Fripp is because he is a celebrity, a famous person, a "rock >star", But, Mr. Fripp, "You were never a hippie." Cheers, rhino For info on the "Really Rhinos" newsletter (a non-profit conservationist effort on behalf of the rhino) send email to: rinophyl at rtd dot com ------------------------------ From: Paul Parkinson Subject: enuff ze nuff Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 20:25:57 -0000 PLEASE can we have a line drawn under replies to the RF posting ? I'm sure I'm not alone in not actually reading them now - quite a few circular arguments creeping in etc. etc. Perhaps you could put a ZIP file of them on the ET site so interested parties could download it ? Otherwise it's just bandwidth we can ill afford...... Regards Paul Parkinson Music is the arithmetic of sounds as optics is the geometry of light Claude Debussy You just pick a chord, go TWANG and you've got music Sid Vicious ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 15:32:57 -0800 (PST) From: "David G. Dixon" Subject: Fripp's diatribe in ET#345 Why would a fan (or enthusiast) approach Robert Fripp, in a crowd, or at a concert, or on the street, or at a bus-stop, or in a cafe? The answer is simple. Unless Mr. Fripp was expecting him, or the two were friends for whom this type of behavior would be acceptable or perhaps even expected, it would most likely be an act of purest sycophancy UNLESS that person desired something specific from Mr. Fripp, and felt reasonably assured that a) this was the appropriate time, place and situation for obtaining it, and that b) Mr. Fripp would (or could) give it, assuming he had possession of it, whatever it was. An example might be information concerning the Guitar Craft course. However, even for this, I would assume that there are plenty of other less intrusive ways of obtaining this information which do not require the personal involvement of Mr. Fripp. And if the thing desired from Mr. Fripp was actually something best (or only) obtained from him personally, well, we send letters or make appointments over the telephone for that sort of thing, don't we? We don't intrude on someone's private moments. No one really wants to "thank" Mr. Fripp for "30 years of intelligent music, blah, blah, blah". He is simply seen, the opportunity for getting a little bit of validation/approval/recognition/whatever is recognized, and the approach is made. I should think that this routine would make anyone on the receiving end feel distinctly uneasy. A famous Sufi (so famous, in fact, that I can't remember exactly who just now) said, "Don't look at me; take what is in my hand." While I don't know for sure, I am guessing that this attitude is shared by Mr. Fripp. Don't look at 'him' (there is probably insufficient illumination in any case), but simply take what he is offering. And what he is not offering (i.e., to be your pal and pose with you for a snapshot), do not demand. That summarizes the rights/obligations/responsibilities of an enthusiast, I should think. And he is offering rather a lot, wouldn't you agree? Dave Dixon Vancouver, BC ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 19:30:29 -0500 From: elizabeth west Subject: Julius J. SAROKA response I don't know how to take text from ET and repost it but this will definitely take up less space. I am in no way a technophobe. I just feel that there is a *major* part of any performance that is lost by recording it especially when a member of the band feels strongly against bootlegging for a very specific reason that I can greatly relate to. Maybe the rest of the band feels the same way. I don't think that my thinking is extreme by any stretch of the word. You didn't write anything, you typed it.:) and there could be a big debate of electronic reality in here somewhere. I consider the music that I write as being part of me and if it is not me directly conveying that music in person, with my guitar in hand, unless you are in the same room with me. A recording of me playing my guitar would only be a representation of me playing guitar, not me actually playing. I do not consider Krimson music that is recorded as a bootleg as being real Krimson either. I also don't consider electronic conversations in the same way that I would consider a conversation with someone in the same room as being "real" It is a like a letter. Fripp even talks about this to some length in reference to letters from Toyah. He would never settle for just letters or the physicality that comes with intimacy. It is just a way to communicate but is not the same thing as being there. Different things are exposed and brought to light. I'm not saying that this is bad in some cases, otherwise I wouldn't own Krimson albums at all. Even if Robert didn't feel so strongly about this I would still feel the same way. This wasn't really part of the debate but this is my view on bootlegging. I'll fess up, I do own one KC bootleg and the sound quailty was very poor and it was way too expensive. After seeing Krimson live I will never do this again, except for the official bootlegs. This is KC's material and if they see fit to release it legitimately I will be more than happy to purchase it and enjoy it. Or not enjoy it. It was released buy the artists in question with their consent and approval. It is still not the real thing. I see it as reading someone elses love letter when you listen to a bootlegged tape. But I never said pornography was a bad thing!!! It has it's time and place. Maybe this is different because I am a woman but it would definitely (to me) never be considered a substitute for the real thing no matter how enjoyable it is! Especially when the consent isn't there. A porno mag doesn't care what you do with it or don't do with it. Krimson does. If there wasn't something that was missing from recordings either boots or legit, then none of us would go to concerts at all. Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1992 06:07:21 -0800 From: ch-zero at portal dot ca (channel zero vancouver) Subject: Matt and Brett Dear Bret and Matt, You're going about this all wrong, regardless of how much of how much of a pratt-creep-pedant-vampire this Fripp may be. It is not right to question Fripp's ability or inability to invalidate Matt's existence for two reasons (in themselves two sides of the same coin, really); validity for Matt's existence either resides within his own identity, or without. Which is to say: 1. Matt is either an individual being of the human variety defined by that species' evolved capacity of self-determination, in which case he exists for himself and any matters of validity are for him to judge/value himself, or 2. Matt is not fooled by such pratty philosophic noodling, and understands all too well that he does not exist for himself: that the value of his existance lies not in himself, but in some other (higher?) power. If the first is the case, then the value of Matt's existence lies in his own identity (Matt's relationship with himself), and is therefore something for him to decide, neither Fripp nor anyone else having the power to validate or invalidate it. It's simply a question of whether Matt is secure or insecure in his identity. In other words...only Matt can know if Matt is valid. Matt? On the other hand, if the second is the case, and the value of Matt's existence can be, truly, in the hands of another, as you, Matt and Bret, both seem to insist, what about that other? In what sorts of ways can another have power over a person? Well, a beloved could, for one, some would argue; but I don't sense that this was the type of overture Matt intened to make to Fripp. Although that would explain the prolifery of hububarama in the wake of the, now infamous, cruel and unhuman snubification. So, what else then? Well, a King has that kind of power over his subjects. And that's pretty scary; kings have been known to do some pretty nasty things to malcontents. I mean, one could end up with one's head on a spike! And from whence a King's dominion, for that matter? Well, from God, isn't it? Who created them all, king and subjects, in the first place? Gave this very 'existence' on which obsess you, Matt and Bret? So, then, the question would be (as Colluphid once asked), "Who is this God person, anyway?" Hmmm...Now that's a tuffy. Let's start with what's been created and work toward God from there, that seems sensible, albeit in a pretty common sort of way. So, what is this reality we inhabit? Why, that's easy! - This is a forum for Robert Fripp and King Crimson enthusiasts. *King* Crimson, indeed! And we did already extablish that Kings are only Kings in that their Gods have made them so: created them, given them their subjects, their body... ...So who created this King Crimson with its audience-body and enthusian forum? Why, Robert Fripp. Neat! How did he do that, anyway? What is the nature of this act of creation? Oh - I know this one - "The perfomance of music is a universe writ small." So...let me get this straight...this Robert Fripp's music (musicing, pre-recorded, moment-ary, live, bootlegged (officially or pirated))...created...this universe writ small...of band...and...enthusiast-ic audience...um...so: Fripp...is...God? Wow, that carries some pretty heavy implications. I mean, hey - Matt and Bret, if this is the case, hadn't you better get down and worship, recant, beg forgiveness while you still have a chance? Before Fripp does decide to revoke more than the validity of your existence, as some blasphemers who insult Fripp's mercy with words like pratt, bid Fripp be gone from the world Fripp created, even question Fripp's right to play, to be, to Fripp the very essence of the reality these doomed inhabit would have [Fripp [do]]?!? Gods can be very wrathful, even those not subject to the wildnessesses of artistic passions as is your God Fripp. (And some pretty dark passions at that (scary music aside, just look at Fripp's behaviour! And taste in film!!)) Besides, what God ever went about worrying Himself over whether He was suffering his little creatures politely enough? What kind of respect would behaviour like that inspire? Especially from a God who prides himself on being so relentlessly remorseless? I heard once that the artist creates his own moral universe, on which grounds alone any of us, would be erroneous to judge; but in this case the artist is your very God who created you, your Fripp as it were; Frippor of your entire Frippiverse; Fripper of your Frippxistence; including the morals to which we all must Fripphere when Frippproaching Fripp. So Fripp it not be Fripp to Frippgin Fripping Fripcordingly while Fripp's sky is still sheltering? Starless and Bible Black, indeed, Matt and Brett; recant ye (pl.) before Fripp is moved to Discipline.... FrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippF rippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFr ippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFri ppFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrip pFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFripp FrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippF rippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFrippFr ippFrippFrippFrippFrippFripp It's one or the other it seems; recant, grovel, and plead to Fripp to revalidate the petty, insignificant existence Fripp still, generously, forgivingly, allows you, or accept the irrelevance of Fripp's actions by validating yourself. Either way, decide: dance on Fripp's strings or be (free). Love, Beob Lorf xoxoxoxox P.S. Happy Birthday, Crimso the Great, King! Channel Zero Vancouver ch-zero at portal dot ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 FEB 1997 23:05:45 +0100 (BST) From: Harry White Subject: Response to Robert To: et at cs dot man dot ac dot uk I have been lurking for some time watching the incredible amount of traffic Robert's post has generated, waiting for someone to make the points that have occurred to me. No one has yet so I offer my thoughts for what they are worth. Thought 1. ======== There is an issue of perception here, many posts have defined how the relationships between artist and fan should be, but no matter how dispassionate we may try to be there is an underlying, unfiltered emotional perception of artist by fa n and, less so, artist of fan. When I put on the headphones and listen to a CD it's personal, just me and the artist. My perception is that the artist speaks to me. This is an illusion of course but I willingly suspend my disbelief in order to enhance my personal exper ience. The artist has no such perception of me. So from the records, articles in the press and ET I know lots about Robert, who knows nothing of me. I map my perceptions of Robert onto him, I expect him to be basically a nice bloke becaus e I think I'm a nice bloke, both perceptions probably wide of the mark. I choose to think that we would get along just fine if we ever met with a purpose. I have no justification for thinking this way but it's much more pleasant for me an d it could be true. The perceived relationship between fan and artist is one to one, the relationship between artist and fan is one to many. Thought 2. ======== In an ideal world the relationships are more complicated.The artist has a relationship with his art, the fan has a relationship with the artist's art even to the extent of creating a part of it within him or herself. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". The relationship is; Artist <-------> Art <----------> Fan not, Artist <-----------> Fan This is not altered by whatever the fan and artist may perceive it to be. Robert has chosen to change this by corresponding with us via ET. It strikes me as typically Frippian experiment, but that could just be my perception! Third Thought ============= Somewhat off topic, but in contemplating this and the debate about bootlegs and "Official Bootlegs" I was struck by what a good metaphor the "love letter vs hot date" is. The love letter is a permanent considered declaration, the Hot Date an occassion of hazard and mutual trust. This makes the bootleg a cheap exploititative, porno film made with out the participants' permission. It may be interesting to watch, to compare technique, it may be somewhat stimulating in a vica rious, voyeuristic way but it ain't anything like being there. Finally, in fairness I have to say that I met Robert in Bournemouth in 1970 at the end of a tour. I was invited backstage by a roadie and Robert was the soul of courtesy and even offered me a lift which I declined out of either courtesy or embarassment, it was a long time ago. So thanks, Robert, KC allumni past and present, Toby and all ETer's. Lurk Mode On -- Harry White -- Acorn Risc Machines Small, mobile, highly intelligent, computers. Techniquest Large, fixed, mainly intelligent, institution ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:08:02 -0500 From: elizabeth west Subject: the two "Bobs" I went to the Adrian Belew page a few weeks ago and noticed that Ade's given name was Robert Steven Belew. I made a horrible joke out of it that I had to share. Go ahead and kill me now! Did Adrian change his name so that no one would call him "Bob" Belew?(Babaloooooooooooo!!!!!) I did warn you! And since we know this now, both guitarists in KC can be called "Bob", I think it would only be fitting if both of the percussionists and both of the bass/stick players have the first same names as well to make it a complete double trio! In total silliness, Elizabeth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 15:28:16 +1000 From: j dot keens at rmit dot edu dot au (Jeremy Keens) Subject: miscellaneous thoughts Following Fripp's contributions to ET, my mind like most people's has been churning along a number of paths. Fripp's clarification (extensive) of his view on the live performance underlines the fact that it is not recordings of live performances per se which offend, but the theft or mis-apprehension. This is strengthened by the number of live recordings DGM have put out - soundscapes, official bootlegs, the quintet etc.. This could mean that a concerted push May see _earthbound_ cleaned up and officially released (unless its already in the _epitaph_ set). On _epitaph_ I would hope that people will keep their posts on the 'listen-in' and the set concise and relevant. I would think we don't want to be reading multiple posts of the 'I was there and it was great' or 'i've got it and its great' variety. Maybe there will need to be some administrative filtering. (I have ordered mine [being in australia I can't attend the event] and will probably fall into the trap of mindless comment!) On Fripps presence - it does change the tenor of this vehicle somewhat:- it will be interesting to see if the flavour of posts changes over the next few weeks. And I am surprised Fripp has the time/energy/interest to compose long and intricate in depth responses to some of the more negative writers - I have thought they are pretty ignorable, but then I am not the one being accused of arrogance. And finally, if you WANT Fripp to pay that sort of attention to you, matt tricranial (who is now a legend in his own lifetime; has he been given more attention than he deserves) is an object lesson. If you can stand the Fripp heat, you know how to make yourself a target! Have also ordered _That which passes_ and _November suite_: so a great pleasure is in store for me in a couple of weeks. cheers jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:27:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Peter Thompson Subject: NST and the minor third In the last ET Johannes Korn wrote asking a question about NST and the fact that it has an interval of a minor third between the two top strings. The reason is simply one of tension. It is nigh on impossible to get a guitar string that will tune much higher than a G. Either the string will snap, or the gauge will be so fine that the string will be very quiet or will snap. In order to keep the perfect fifths tuning throughout one would need to make the bottom string even lower than C which most guitars could not take, either because the nut and/or bridge would need recutting or because the string would be so slack that it would flap around hopelessly. Note that instruments tuned in fifths usually only have four strings for example the violin family, banjos, mandolins and tenor guitars. Peter Thompson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:14:07 -0600 (CST) From: ethan taylor sellers Subject: "new standard tuning" My inaugural post to this list: If you tune what is ordinarily the high E string on a guitar upwards to make all intervals perfect fifths, the string will snap either during the tuning process or relatively shortly after commencing play. Bear in mind that tuning: C G D A E B would put the top string of the guitar at (depending upon the size of your fret board) a open string pitched equivalent to almost half the length of the fretboard. Since "Thrak!" is the sound of several hundred guitars hitting the same chord more or less simultaneously, perhaps >>SNAP!<< ought to be the title of a Crimso album wherein Robert and Adrian experience tuning difficulties. I bet some people on the list would buy it. ;) This seems to be a problem peculiar to the guitar, since it has 6 strings (or 12, or 7 if you're Steve Vai, or 8 or something if you're Charlie Hunter), which seems (due to the variances in string sizes) to create a far greater problem with balancing string tensions. One can more easily tune a violin (four strings) in fifths, because the lowest string and the highest string are less likely to throw each other out of whack. The Grand Stick has to be a tuning nightmare for this reason. Another reason why standard guitar tuning runs in fourths, except for the interval between the 4th and 5th strings (counting from the lowest strings up) is that it facilitates both scalar playing and chording - a compromise between two primary functions of most guitar playing. Ethan (who doesn't play guitar because keyboards are way more logically laid-out, and one doesn't have to think about how to tune a keyboard - just make sure the notes sound right!) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Ethan Taylor Sellers etseller at midway dot uchicago dot edu - http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/etseller * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:12:38 -0500 From: sid smith <106050 dot 2211 at compuserve dot com> Subject: KC remixes Thomas J. Hranowsky talked about KC remixes which I have to say I find quite interesting. Once in a record store in Edinburgh I came across a trance version of Wish You were Here (the Floyd album). Essentially this was a bootleg of samples and loops of the album material over a different electronic backing track. The effect was in intriguing in that it transformed elements of the music into something quite different yet still retaining an essence of the original. For these reasons I enjoyed the Darshana remixes of a couple of years ago by TFSOL and The Orb. If pressed I would say that the version that moves me the most would have to be the original track. However the two remixes have their merit taking the basic idea or threads of the piece into different, unknown territory. In Manchester's Virgin Megastore I noticed several young people in the audience to see Fripp perform a Soundscape. As most of the audience were in their late 30's +, I wondered what they thought. Chatting to one of them I discovered that they'd come across Fripp via his playing with FWWD, FSOL and others associated with that kind of music. So who knows, there might well be a commercial market for such a project outside of the KC fan / enthusiast. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:35:29 -0600 From: gtaylor at heurikon dot com (Gregory Taylor) Subject: For the drooling completist.... I've recently come into possession of a second copy of the New Percussion Group of Amsterdam disc "Go Between" on EG, which features our mutual acquaintance Mr. Bruford (along with Kobo Abe). It's up for bid for those of you who are into the completist thing. You can email me at this address. I'll keep the bids open for a week or so. With regards, Gregory |============ COMPUTER PRODUCTS - HEURIKON CORPORATION ============| | Powerful Products for Communications | | | | Gregory Taylor Email: gtaylor at heurikon dot com | | Marketing Communications Manager Phone: 608-831-5500 | | 8310 Excelsior Drive Fax: 608-831-4249 | | Madison, WI 53717 | |=====================================================================| | Yo, digerati! the surf's up at Heurikon! http://www.heurikon.com | |=====================================================================| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:35:56 -0500 From: ssmith at knittingfactory dot com (Steve Smith) Subject: Andy Summers in NYC Hi all - Would've replied to this on private e-mail but thought there might be a few others out there who would be wondering, so, for the record: >1) "The Andy Summers Trio" is playing at the Knitting Factory in NYC on >3/5. Anyone know if Tony is playing with him? No. Jerry Watts on bass, Gregg Bissonette on drums. FYI the band is not here on 3/5 but on 3/6-3/9. -Steve- *---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Smith Public Relations Manager Knitting Factory / Knitting Factory Works 74 Leonard St., New York, NY 10013 (212) 219-3006 ext. 22 ssmith at knittingfactory dot com http://www.knittingfactory.com *---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:10:11 -0500 From: rhino at indy dot net (rhino) In ET #345, Robert Fripp wrote: > A great amount of my energies are currently being put into >redefining music industry standards and norms (an aim contained within my >larger aim), in and through my tiny part of the music industry (I'm >referring to the establishment of Discipline Global Mobile) in the hope >that ripples will move outwards. I can't change the world, but maybe I can >have an effect in my own little part of the world. My own little part of >the world interracts with the larger world and, since everything we do >carries repercussions (whether we like it or not, intend it or not) if one >little world resonates with "rightness" then maybe a sympathetic resonance >will begin to sound elsewhere. When I read this I was immediately reminded of something I once heard over and over again. "Change has always come from small minorities." Therefore I put it to the group we endeavor to make the minority the majority. Upon further reading of (impersonal) Mr. Fripp's posting he appears to not only deftly employ the devilshly clever Socratic Dialectic, but the fiendishly clever rhetoric method. For this reason, and this reason alone, I pity Mr. Alder, Mr. Fenwick and their solicitors. Have you ever tried to stuff a night crawler back into it's hole? It just can't be done. Phaedrus indeed! Cheers, rhino ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:19:18 -0500 (EST) From: murkie Subject: keeping my mouth shut "Rob Messinger" wrote: > In the few instances where I was face to face with celebrities that I > admired I really wanted to say something clever/profound and give thanks > for their music that has brought me much joy [or frustration trying to > figure out Krimson guitar parts] but realized that it has probably all been > said before and rather than causing a person I admired to "Suffer Through A > Few Moments Of Sincere Compliment" I chose to keep my mouth shut, hoping > that my being at their performance adequately showed my thanks/appreciation > to them. i couldn't agree more! i always feel akward and at a general loss for words when face to face with a celeb (which seems to be happening a lot less since i left los angeles for vermont and my wife is no longer working for mtv. but i digress...) the one exception to the "keeping-my-mouth-shut" rule would have to have been the Robert Fripp String Quintet gig at the Coachhouse in Southern California several years back. at the end of the show, as an encore, the boys came out into the audience with their ovation acoustics (trey too!) and played one last number (i forget which tune). this was no big surprise for me as they had done the same thing the previous night at a different venue. what was a surprise was the fact that they ended up standing directly in front of me (much better view than the previous night!). about halfway through the song i realized i was staring at R.F.'s hands with my mouth hanging open (literally). it's always a treat to see him play, but to see it this close was another thing altogether! i looked up, and he was staring back with the biggest grin i've ever seen on his face. i think my silent, slack-jawwed compliment was apprecitated. murkie ===================================================================== = = = M a r k C h r i s t e n s e n = = Cramped Quarters Studio / Jasperpottamus Music Publishing = = internet: murkie at middlebury dot edu = = "The world isn't flat. It's actually +6 dBa at 5.7 kHz." = = = ===================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:12:53 +0000 From: khoffman at giantfood dot com (Kurt Hoffman) Subject: Re: Offer for Tribute Selections I was surprised to notice that no one else has made this offer, so I'll throw it out here; I am formally offering my services as to the task of assimilating/catagorizing/assigning and eliminating contributions to the tribute album. I make no offers of financial assistance, and assume no financial obligations from this offer. I am merely willing to use my available time to listen to contibutions intended for this undertaking, and offer up a list of finalists toward the ends of having these works dispersed in whatever means available. Two topics come immediately to mind stemming from this offer; the first being what would the selection criteria be, and second, what qualifications do I posess toward completing this task in such a way as to present a viable product (as opposed to a well dressed and ready for the oven turkey). On the first issue I would suggest that the following criteria be used in any assesment of songs for this project- 1) The recording quality of the work should be of a "reasonable" standard, and that the overall aural quality should be kept as consistant as possible from track to track. To achieve these ends I would recommend that all submissions be done from no lower than a four track recorder. While this does not insure the kind of quality I would hope for, it would seem to be the most reasonable lowest common denominator that would exclude a minimum of potential hopefull submissions while still giving some modicum of consistant quality. While I feel that it is a shame to limit any submission, I feel that the end results will be more listenable (and as such best served) by some attempt at minimum values from the start. 2) Dolby (at least B, preferably C). Hiss is a fact of life, but clean sonics leads more often to repeated listening. 3) Intent. Generally, when an artist or artists take it upon themselves to rerender a previously created piece there is a mix of three motives at work. The first (not in any specific order) would be as hommage of performance, with the final goal being as close to a reproduction of the original as possible; the second would be adoration of content, whereby the intent is to take the text and work with it for its own sake (as opposed to working with the text because of the author, which would fall into catagory one), with an eye (or ear) toward going somewhere else with the piece than has been done previously. The third would be financial gain, related to the "coattailing" of exposure based on an existing client base for the original. Now, in applying these conditions for creation I would ask that number three be as far removed from the intent as possible. The possibility of distribution of a finished collection may inspire some to see this as a potential career move, which could injure the spirit that I feel should manifest itself in this undertaking. If success flows from this collection, wonderful, but please don't try to use it as a vehicle to get RF (or others) to "notice" yourself or band (or at least not any more so than the act of being a performer entails in the first place). As to the other two conditions, I feel that a healthy mix of both would be what I found most attractive- that is that the playing be respectful of its source yet avoid pandering, and that the manipulation of the content show an understanding of the original intent but with new insights applied from the experiences of the players. 4) I feel that, since this tribute has had something of a democratic birth, we should continue in this vein. Towards those ends I offer up for consideration the variety of ways that the music could be combined; by time period ('69, '71-73, '80's, '90's, etc); by major style (jazz, skronk, neo-classic, acoustic, heavy, etc); or, by album content (imagine an entire song for song of any one of the albums- the possibilities are almost numbing). Any or all of which should be viable options, and each may best serve certain needs at certain times. If I had my way there would be an album by album tribute to each of the works, but I feel that this should be a topic for discussion. Obviously a decision on this aspect must be complete before the submission and judgement phase. 5) Number of contributions. Unless we are doing each album song by song, I would ask that each individual or band submit no more than two contributions. There are other, more lengthy criteria, but I feel that unless I recieve some sort of green light there is no need to burdon anyone with it at this point. Now, as to what skills I bring to this task... I have been playing instruments since I was four years old (I am now 37), and have some level of compitence on guitar, bass, keyboards and percussives (I am not trying to blow my own horn, especially seeing as I have no skills toward reeds or brass, I merely feel that a knowledge base of music and performance will enhance any individual attempting this type of undertaking. I do not mean to imply superiority on any instrument or musical knowledge, and in point of fact given that I have been playing the piano 33 years I should be much better). I am not formally trained, nor do I have a degree in any aspect of music theory (or anything else, for that matter). I offer this as a counterpoint to my experience with playing, in the attempt at forming the idea here that I am probably somewhere in the middle of the musical knowledge and ability spectrum that is the ET team. I have experience on both sides of the recording process, but would not consider myself a professional. I feel that this middle ground will give me the ability to judge with a good balance of emotive and technical reasoning. I have been actively following the various versions of KC since 1971, so I feel that I will be able to look upon any of the period pieces and relate to them with a balance that may not be possible if all I "understood" or best understood was a certain time frame version of the band. I apologize for not having been there in '69, but being 10 at the time I had no one exposing me to much music like KC. I have a very open ear, in that I like and purchase virtually all "forms" of music (though I do find the current Nashville pop version of country to be mostly deplorable, and I have never been a huge fan of most opera or skronk), and feel that I have a wide enough base to be able to bring this resource to the process as well. But probably my most vital attribute is that I am willing to commit the time and energy it takes to take this task on and try my best to be fair and evenhanded in the selection process. I am also willing to recuse myself from submitting material, although I would love to do so. I will certainly not be heartbroken if someone else would also like to take on this task, but I do not wish to suggest that a panel should be created to evaluate submissions. Let's face it, there is probably no best way to do this, but I think that expediency would be best served by a single person taking on this daunting task. Since Robert has not offered to do so (and I feel that as princpal composer for a majority of the material and certainly as principal driving force throughout all versions of KC he is best suited to this task) and since I have seen no other offers I feel that we should get started on this project. Feel free to respond publically and or privately, but I do think that we need to establish some time frame here. It is currently February 17th. Let's argue about this until April 9th (my 38th birthday), and then, if I am honored with your bestowing upon me the go ahead to proceed, we will set up timetables for submissions and establish additional criteria as needed. Kurt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:50:50 -0600 From: gtaylor at heurikon dot com (Gregory Taylor) Subject: An Expectation in Motion Tends to Stay in Motion While it's been all very interesting to read all the "From here to Fripp and back" postings, I've gotta wonder precisely what personal purpose Robert's appearance might serve for *him* - I'd personally find exposing myself in such a direct way to the combined expectational inertia of one's own fandom a useless enterprise; either that, or I'd have to wrestle with the contrarian urge to find the thing that everyone else seem to loathe and then adopt *that* as my Lenten discipline to pursue. I don't mean to imply that anything we'd have to say is useless (since I, myself, am "one of those people" after all) - it's merely that I think we often look to those we respect to mediate another sort of world to us - one whose borders we don't, won't, or can't define ourselves. Beyond something like quotidian curiousity of the "How does this frock look *really?*" variety, I'd much rather be asking Music the questions rather than the folks who know me via the delayed and fractured loop which delivers consumer product. Perhaps fandom is the irritant which is used in the production of pearls. With regards, Gregory |============ COMPUTER PRODUCTS - HEURIKON CORPORATION ============| | Powerful Products for Communications | | | | Gregory Taylor Email: gtaylor at heurikon dot com | | Marketing Communications Manager Phone: 608-831-5500 | | 8310 Excelsior Drive Fax: 608-831-4249 | | Madison, WI 53717 | |=====================================================================| | Yo, digerati! the surf's up at Heurikon! http://www.heurikon.com | |=====================================================================| ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:29:01 -0500 (EST) From: skantere Subject: Now, forget all this Dear friends, In ET #349, kholmhud at nwu dot edu (Kevin Holm-Hudson) wrote about "Let The Power Fall": > Anyway, Fripp's liner notes refer to the aforementioned "Drive > to 1981" and then instruct us to "Now, forget all this." (i.e. time for a > new direction in his career--KC reborn). It's interesting how we get different messages from the same text. The message I get is this: "Don't allow the information you have just read to interfere in any way with your perception of the music that will follow" (the most bullet-proof and universal way to achieve it, is, of course, to forget this information). I only realized it *conciously* though while reading Kevin's post and weeks after I clarified for myself my own notions about relationships between Music and Man (to answer Robert's questions). In any case, what's really amazing about it, is how it works (with me, at least). Every time I put "Let The Power Fall" on the CD player -- not often, but anyway -- I read the liner notes with interest. Afterwards, the only thing I can remember is: "Now, forget all this". I don't have any problem remembering what I have read in other liner notes (for those about to recommend me to see a mental health professional). Hey, and BTW, let's stop giving each other (including Crimson members) advice intruding in deeply personal matters. There was one rash post recently that particularly pissed me off. I mean, cow pats are legalised now, but why go further, especially if the sole point anyway is *ostentation* (had to look up a dictionary for this one). And lastly, I still haven't found the "Lady or the Tiger" on CD. I'm starting to wonder if they have pressed any. However, "LCG Live" liner notes and ET Discography list the catalog number... Anyone??? All the very best, Sergei Kantere, Moscow, Russia ------------------------------ Subject: EXCLUSIVE TONY LEVIN INTERVIEW ON INNERVIEWS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:20:26 -0500 (EST) From: innerviews@@pobox.com (Innerviews) Innerviews is proud to present an exclusive, in-depth interview with Uberbassist Tony Levin. Levin's the guy King Crimson, Peter Gabriel, Pink Floyd, Paul Simon, Yes, Lou Reed and thousands more have called on when they want high-end bottom line expertise. You can find the interview at: http://pobox.com/~innerviews In it you'll encounter discussion about: - King Crimson's current activities including Thrak Attak - The making of his solo album World Diary - Future projects, including the potential World Diary sequel - How to start an independent record label - His views on the history of the bass - His three-stringed bass - Life in a double trio format and working with Trey Gunn - Why he shaved his head all those years ago... - Working with Yes, Bill Bruford, Peter Gabriel and others - Why King Crimson's recent album artwork is "appalling" And tons more. This interview is a must for Crimson fans and bassheads alike. Please check it out! ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ Anil Prasad innerviews at pobox dot com ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ INNERVIEWS: Your link to exclusive interviews and CD reviews featuring the world's most interesting and innovative musicians! http://pobox.com/~innerviews New interviews: Tony Levin, Victor Wooten, Michel Cusson, Fish ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Feb 1997 10:31:49 -0500 From: Andrew Krein Subject: Bret Hart? A response to jeff b from Digest #349 Bret Michaels is the lead singer for Poison. Bret Hart is a pro wrestler, I think. While Poison had a halfway descent moment or two (adolescent memories), I'm a little ashamed about the wrestling trivia knowledge. On another note, I copied the audio from the Live In Japan 1995 laser disc to cassette. It makes great rush hour listening in the car. The audio quality and the performance are far superior to the B'boom CD. The only problem is that my wife kicked up a fuss when I tried to listen to it on the return from a weekend trip to the beach (February is the best time to go to Ocean City, MD if you're in the area). Andy Confusion will be my epitaph.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:18:37 -0500 (EST) From: Joe Basile Subject: Boots&Bruford&Borro Test Hello Eter's, Another open letter to DGM.Would it be ever possible to release "THE NOISE" video music on CD ?(Love the Sheltering Sky)Also a must Fripp release is David Sylvian's "ALCEMEY AN INDEX OF POSSIBILITIES ".Fripp is a a surgeon on this!!(For you who have a hard time getting your mate to like this type of music, making it to this convienced mine .) Also, I personally would like to see originals rather than a cover of KC material for obvious reasons,obvious to me anyhow. Lets let John Wetton contiue doing the covers ....If you want to do covers as a tribute to KC, may I suggest an airguitar video next ?! If no one else, and only if no one else does not want to collect original material, I might be interested. Also concerning my last post, The Yes Union Tour, this is why I was a little skeptical of the double trio at first. This comparison ,in my mind proves; I was wrong,that this is the best Crimson team,and probably one of the best teams ever! It really is. Lastly, my favorite KC song now seems to be "VROOOM"! I don't know if I like The CDs', Video, or Official Bootleg, better.Right now it seems like the video. Does any one know of any others ? Warmly, Joe B Ps. Mike you should subscribe, it's free ! ------------------------------ From: crowder at hal dot muhlberg dot edu (James A. Crowder Jr. - Biology) Subject: A open letter to RF (in response to ET 342) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:11:19 -0500 (EST) Mr. Fripp, This letter is a response to your post in ET Digest #342. I realize that the questions you asked in ET were likely rhetorical, but considering that you seem to be receptive to outside input, I thought I'd send you a letter. Not knowing you, I realize that I am assuming that you are willing to at least entertain the counsel of total strangers. If I have assumed incorrectly, please kill or scroll past this message now. I don't want to add myself to the list of droning closet orator/philosophers that seem to pervade "enthusiast" groups like Elephant Talk. [No offense, guys.] I would like to preface my response to your questions. I am not a fan of the "open letter" in general. In my opinion, *most* "open letters" submitted to luminaries via their respective enthusiast groups are sycophantic, sanctimonious garbage. It seems to me that most of the writers of open letters simply like to hear themselves talk, and, if they have no live audience to entertain, they clutter newsgroups like this with their views on life and the universe when given (what they consider) due cause. (As you have succinctly put it, "Lighten Up!") Unfortunately, most of the "open letters" posted in response to your past questions have been almost verbatim refabrications of your published personal philosophies about music and things musical. Let me turn the scalpel on myself now. I'm sure all the ET readers are not interested in my opinions. What I have to say is not groundbreaking stuff, but I think it could give you some small amount of relief. Nor, indeed, do I relish having several thousand pairs of eyes reading over a personal correspondence from me to you. I'm a private person. (Incidentally, I invite all those people who are not Robert Fripp to delete or scroll past this letter.) In an attempt to circumvent the need to place this letter into a public forum, I rashly and imprudently sent my responses to your questions via e-mail to DGM, thinking that if you posted from there, it might not be unreasonable to assume that you could receive mail there. A DGM representative graciously and gently informed me that you could not be reached there. Knowing no other route to take, and with some trepidation, I post this to ET. Thank you for suffering through my spiel. ******************************** (RF) Question: knowing this, do you think a performer might modify their behaviour in close encounters of the enthusiast kind? If so, how? ___________________________________ In the mind of an enthusiast, actually coming face to face with the source of his or her enthusiasm and inspiration is such a singular, dynamic, important event that, occasionally (all right, *often*), said enthusiast's prefrontal cortex temporarily turns to pudding, while his or her motor and or speech areas engage in an effort to establish some relationship with the object (yes, object) of his or her inspiration. Yes, I realize I may be doing this by writing this message to you. Hard for me to say. I apologize if, to you, this seems to be the case. The result is one I'm sure you, lamentably, are all too familiar with. The now-enraptured enthusiast, regardless of what transpires, instantly disseminates his or her "brush with greatness" to anyone, whether or nor they are interested, and wholly without regard for the feelings of the object of their passion. Internet discussion groups, as you point out, are wonderful little tools to abuse for this dissemination. The bottom line: Some people don't think. =============================================== (RF) This is my concern as a musician: how to be in the presence of music when the power turns on? In many people, the same impetus occurs, but with an opposite reaction than is stated in the previous example. To continue putting this in scientific terms: In an attempt to really "feel" the music, the hapless mind of the enthusiast puts his or her prefrontal cortex in total overdrive, trying to analyze every note, every meaning, rather than just letting their analytical selves go limp. The bottom line: Some people think too much. ===================================== Unfortunately, in both of these examples, it would seem that, in the confines of each situation, you are powerless to make any personal adjustment to second-guess the enthusiast, whether he/she is in contact with you personally, or with your music. The responsibility resides with the other person. The best thing to do is to continue what you have already begun: use your position as the focus of the enthusiasts' passion, and get them to answer questions about the artist/enthusiast relationship, so that they can draw their own conclusions, and hopefully realize on a subconscious level what they should or should not do in a given situation. Zen and the Art of Enthusiasm. As I said, I realize these were likely rhetorical questions. Take care. Thank you for your time. James Crowder Lecturer in Biology Muhlenberg College 2400 Chew St. Allentown, PA, 18104 (USA) crowder at hal dot muhlberg dot edu P.S. Are you planning on coming back to Muhlenberg to perform in the near future? If I recall, you performed at our Center of the Arts last year, and, unfortunately, I was unable to attend. Would hate to think I missed my only chance to hear your music live. -- James Crowder Biology Department Muhlenberg College crowder at muhlberg dot edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Fripp redux Anton wrote: > raving that was courtesy of fellow bandmate Adrian Belew. However, you've > taken your "diatribes" and "dialogue" to an equally puzzling level. > > You've started ruminating on the most minute and insignificant of fan-Fripp > interactions as if they're of mammoth importance. In fact, you're obviously > spending an unbelievable and astonishing amount of time reading ET and > formulating responses. As somebody else pointed out, this can be taken as an indication that The Fripp is, in fact, very concerned with how he is perceived by his fans, and (of course) what the relationship is between artist and audience. Perhaps the incidents to which Fripp is responding were "minute and insignificant," but the fans in question certainly didn't think so (or they wouldn't have bothered posting), and the fact that Fripp has responded shows that, in spite of his action at the time, Fripp doesn't find them insignificant either. He doesn't find them *pleasant*, obviously, but he cares enough about the way he is perceived by his fans to address the issues, and to attempt to get us to challenge our assumptions. As somebody else said, this gives me much more satisfaction (as a fan) than any handshake or autograph. > You once discussed and/or believed in the "vampiric relationship between > artist and fan." But you're now demonstrating some fairly toothy behaviour > yourself. And that behaviour seems to depict a fundamental unwillingness to > acknowledge basic human tendencies and interaction models. I suspect that Boppin Bobby couldn't deny these "basic human tendencies" if he wanted to -- at least not the tendency of certain fans to approach their idols under any and all circumstances. What he's trying to do (it seems to me) is challenge us to *think* about our "basic human tendencies" and whether they are appropriate in all circumstances. (Fripp's wife is rather attractive. As a heterosexual male, if I saw her on the beach in a bikini, my "basic tendency" might well be some sort of sexual desire. However, that doesn't mean it's appropriate to act on that impulse.) > You've chosen to embed and obfuscate that unwillingness in > pseudo-philosophy and quixotic prose, but it's still quite obvious. Anyone who is smart enough to appreciate King Crimson's music (and who speaks English) should have no problem reading Fripp's posts. I have seen very little "philosophy" in Fripp's posts (pseudo or other) but rather (to repeat myself) a desire to get all ET readers to think consciously about their relationship with the band... in other words, to get us to reveal *our* philosophies. > You > don't seem particularly interested in generating goodwill amongst your > fans, unless it's something which directly benefits you (e.g. the upcoming > listening/ purchasing session in Britain). What do you call posting to ET? Again, I take this as a strong indication that he is *very* concerned with how he is perceived by his audience: he simply is unwilling to suck up to us. > And apparently, if an encounter or action takes place that violates your > personal realm, it's unacceptable, vile and demands a cold, calculating > response. I guess never once in your life have you bothered someone in a > moment that was inappropriate. That's pretty damn impressive Mr. Fripp if > it's true. High standards indeed. I don't recall Fripp ever claiming that he's never bothered somebody at an inappropriate time. I do recall him stating that he recognizes that this is an unpleasant thing to do, and I imagine that he makes a conscious effort not to do so. > So, relax. Consider offering a smile instead of a grimace. He is smiling, just in his own twisted way. I usually get an average of one good laugh per Fripp post, and again, his very presence in this forum undermines any claim that he holds his public in contempt. > Consider > choosing to calmly explain your frame of mind to the offending person > rather than act offended and disgusted. I'm sure he's considered this option. Just my two cents' --Art National Ska/Reggae Calendar: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html Boston Ska Home Page: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:41:59 -0500 From: Ears Hart Subject: Closure "I'm fortunate because I think if it hadn't been for the older musicians taking-up so much time with me, I don't think I'd probably be here today." - Junior Wells "I got to meet B.B. King when I was 15 years old. He was just so nice. He actually sat and talked with me. He was so genuine, so very encouraging to me at such a young age. He didn't know me. And he gave me a pick! I've still got that pick...I keep it to remind me of respect and being good to your fans." - Anton Funderburgh *---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *----------------------------------------------------------------- While reading a photo-journal about "3rd generation" (appx. 1955-1980) Blues musicians yesterday, I believe I may have identified an as-yet-unmentioned factor in the artist/listener relationship discussed here: the, perhaps uniquely American, "tradition" of musical mentorship which informs, on an almost archetypal level, how Americans feel they may relate toward musicians/artists. Here, in this confusingly inconsistent country, the "playing ground" (as I said in my last posting) is considerably flatter than in most other countries. After all, with such a collision of population, culture, and tradition (in only a couple of hundred years), the only progressive and future-building path through it all has been through courage (willingness to accept Difference) and active inquiry (to measure and validate that acceptance). Certainly, no demographic breakdown of "Where Enthusiastic Things Happened At Inappropriate Times" has been compiled (and...may it never). However, it is likely that the most frequent assaults on Mr. Fripp's privacy have occured in The United States of America. We're good at it. "Team"-members have learned, here, that Mr. Belew took it upon himself to approach those musicians he respected (Bowie, etc.) and actively sought to develop a relationship with them. The fruit of those efforts are clear. The long-term harvest of Mr. Belew's confidence in himself and his skills is our gain: we now enjoy his painterly guitar stylings/songwriting talents, without having to travel further than the nearest music outlet. No longer, is Mr. Belew a midwestern 'legend' no one's ever seen or heard play live. Through talent, resourcefulness, force-of-will and persistence, Mr. Belew broke through the Not-Known side of the hedge to a place where The Bears, his pre-Known music group (talented, but Not-Known prior to Mr. Belew's validation by the marketplace) were able to tour widely and well on the wind in those sails. Perhaps Mr. Robert Fripp's observed inability to consistently interact, in-person, with his public may have purely cultural origins. If so, then Mr. Fripp may have been judged unfairly by myself and others. Having lived and worked as a linguist in S. Korea, Japan, and The Phillipines, I've had the repeated opportunity to be fascinated, and embarrassed, by the international conduct of some Americans. I am an American. Many of the aphorisms ring true, for some. "Go-getters", "assholes", "brash", "inconsiderate", "rude", "insensitive"...things like that. You sometimes see these things in foreign newspapers, and I have wondered how someone to whom they do not apply (such as one of my parents) feels when reading such a blanket-definition of what Americans are. Does any 'fan' feel any true-affinity with Fandom-Major ---to the exclusion of their Being---outside an appreciation for the music itself? None I've met at a Crimson show. Unfortunately, we live in a world where more often than not, and owing to a seemingly global inability/unwillingness to praise/compliment one another, we feel as though we are 'between criticisms'. People experience this degrading reality everywhere: from their employers, from the clergy, from family, from people they try very hard to respect. As such, many of us are left to our own devices, adrift in a whirlpool of hope, possibility, and disappointment. It is no surprise that a great many more Americans are actively participating in alternative spiritualities and Zen today than ever before (What religion does not include sound and rhythm?). Detachedness works. The "ET" forum, to its credit, has encouraged fair and open discussion of a tender topic. I have learned plenty of tools for my art here. I have extracted and compiled numerous "Interesting Philosophies" derived from this discussion (interested "ETer's" are invited to request a copy). At times, differing viewpoints cannot converge. Their logics may seem "erudite", "ballsy", or "well-stated" to some; and then, sloppy and manipulative to others. In these situations, it is best to use one's Utility Gauge to decide whether to continue participating. Still dig the music, though. Peaceably, Bret Hart/HipWorks 157 Highland Street Worcester, MA, USA 01609 (508) 753-9384 E-mail: HIPWORKS at MA dot ULTRANET dot COM *---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:06:00 +1000 (EST) From: nextwave at peg dot apc dot org (Next Wave Festival) Subject: Telec People who like interesting music might like to try and get a copy of the new George Telec CD. Telec is from Papua New Guinea, and the new CD, simply called Telec, features a range of the musicians currently working in and around the Pacific Rim. KC ears would hear it................the CD is on the Orgin label and you could order it from Mr Philip Morlock at origin at magna dot com dot au regards all...Zane. Next Wave Festival 31 Victoria Street Fitzroy VIC 3065 Australia Art for dreamers in a world of nightmares Ph: 61 3 9417 7544 Fax: 61 3 9417 7481 nextwave at peg dot apc dot org http://www.peg.apc.org/~nextwave/ ------------------------------ Subject: 4 degrees of Crimso / Marzuki / Nashville From: chipnkel at juno dot com (Chip & Kelly Hughes) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:04:50 EST How about four degrees of seperation for a band whose lead singer is Kelly's best friend? Scott Savage (Jars of Clay) played drums on Marzuki's first CD. Adrian Belew produced the latest JoC disk. Adrian hangs with Crimso (unless disgruntled ET'ers get their way!) Way too easy! Marzuki <==> Scott Savage (JoC drummer) <==> Adrian Belew <==> King Crimson Kelly and I are on our way to Nashville Friday for Marzuki's show at Cafe Milano. Since Robert, Ade and Trey will be in town I'm trying to think up something interesting to say should the moment present itself, maybe or maybe not. Maybe, or maybe not... Chip Hughes Jackson, MO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:13:28 -0500 (EST) From: Damon Mahon Subject: 6 Degrees Sorry, folks, no enlightenment from this ET reader on the rights of audience/enthusiasts/performers. This is a purely frivolous post dealing with challenges for the 6 degrees game: 1) How about Rush? That band has retained its original members pretty much from the beginning, and doesn't bring in outside members or have its members in other bands very much. Any connections anyone? The next two are more obscure, and bands with which ET readers are probably not very familiar: 2) "Weird Al" Yankovic? I'll be really impressed if somebody comes up with one for this. The only one I could think of was that Yankovic once toured opening for the Monkees, who had Zappa on their TV show once, whose "Sheik Yerbouti" band contained Belew. Can anybody come up with a more solid connection? 3) Can anyone make a connection between King Crimson and the New Age-ish group Mannheim Steamroller? Has anybody out there ever HEARD of Mannheim Steamroller? Get those synapses working! I'll be interested to see if anything comes of this. -Damon Mahon (DGM) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 02:53:46 -0500 From: Ears Hart Subject: Hook, Line, and Sinker Dear ET'ers and Mr. Fripp- Good heavens! This is splendid. Full-Gainer w/ a Twist!.... *-------------------------------------------------------------------- ...and we quote...then denote, "XIII Expectation closes our ears to what is happening in the moment. [THIS FAN IS GOING TO MAKE ME SUFFER. (2 months later..."Y'mean that loser who looked like, mebbe, he had 'head lice' was BRIAN WILSON??!?"] Listening is how we eat music. [MMM, YUMMY!...WAIT A MINUTE! YUCK!...THIS TASTES LIKE SOMETHING I MIGHT, PHILOSOPHICALLY, NEED TO ACTUALLY HEAR IN ORDER TO COMPREHEND ENOUGH NOT TO APPEAR EFFETE AND CONDESCENDING ON THE WEB...] Hearing is how we digest it. [I'M SORRY, AFTER I LISTENED TO MY EXPECTATION, I COULD HEAR NOTHING.] Hearing transforms sound into music. [GROUND CONTROL TO PILOT....CIRCLE BACK!...CIRCLE BACK!!!] Listening is a craft. [HEY..Y'GOT A NICE PLACE HERE...ANYTHING IN THE 'FRIDGE?] Hearing is an art. [ummm... PPPPPPHHHHHFFFFFTTTTTT!!!!!! WHAT'S THAT SMELL?!?] Listening changes the performance to which we are listening. [AFTER I LISTENED TO MY EXPECTATION, I COULD HEAR NOTHING.] Music changes when people hear it. [How? If the "MUSICK'ERS" can't hear The Hearers?] What we hear is the quality of our listening. [ibid.] Our understanding changes what is is that we understand. "is is" [?] Silence is the field of creative musical intelligence which dwells in the space between the notes, and holds them in place. [(essentially) paraphrasing J. Cage, or C. Nancorrow, or Fred Frith, or Harry Partch, or...] Silence is a bridge between worlds. [ibid.; include Buddha and Lao Tzu, and Carlos Casteneda, and Sen. Joe McCarthy, and Terrance McKenna, and...] The science is in knowing, the art is in perceiving. [AFTER I LISTENED TO MY EXPECTATION, I WOULD HEAR NOTHING.] The future is what the present can bear. [NO SHITTIN'!] The way we describe our world shows how we think of our world. [YES.] How we think of our world governs how we interpret our world. [YES.] How we interpret our world directs how we participate in it. [NO SHITTIN'!] How we participate in the world shapes the world. [AT THE VERY LEAST, THE WORLD TO WHICH WE ARE, SOCIALLY, CONNECTED.] The presence of absence is an entry into loss. [BUT...SOME ABSENCES ARE BENEATH NOTICE! I'M TELLIN' YA, DOG-GONE'IT!] Things are not as bad as they seem. [THINGS ARE EXACTLY AS BAD AS THEY SEEM.] They are worse than that. [RIGHT.] They are also better than that." [COULD BE, AND HOPE SO. THE DOOR'S OPEN.] (My Mr. Fripp-ian, "OUCH! MAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!! THAT SUUUCCCKKKED!!!", -style response/aim parody is 100% m'thang. Writ it on purpuss..no sheeit. (I mean, if Mr. Fripp can dish it out, certainly, he's got his "catcher's mitt" on.) Only the proper quantity of 'twang'--as defined by Mr. Fripp's ("When I Fart, Only Dogs Can Hear It") spirited, though very insultingly out-of-contextualized (people who aren't dopey notice these things.......some "ET" members, judging from things I've received, are not dopey), A-didactification of my, and A. Swansorb.'s (today's "ET") postings--has been channelled into this 'un.) Buh'bye. (Sheesh! Now I've got me back into this.) - Bret Hart HipWorks Productions 157 Highland Street Worcester, MA, USA 01609 (508) 753 - 9384 E-MAIL ADDRESS: HIPWORKS at MA dot ULTRANET dot COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:52:41 -0700 From: (Phil Webster) Subject: syrius jellophant tawk All, One way to look at our musician and listener relationship is as a friendship. We share the aim to *be* in some of the deepest and the most beautiful experiences possible for us. As Oxford has it: one joined to another in intimacy and mutual benevolence. Personal discipline helps us be there when the magical moments arrive. And they do. RF, BB and others have helped me on my journey. I am grateful to them for their work. It has been a salve in painful and difficult times, a blessing in happier ones. I suspect other ETers have similar experiences. I've included an excerpt below from the Stoic philosopher Epictetus. I think it's relevant to the ongoing thread on the nature of our relationships and responsibilities. If it piques your interest, drop me an email at pw at accugraph dot com and I'll send you the whole thing (200+ lines). RF->Epictetus (? degrees). Phil ==== from Arrian's Discourses of Epictetus, II xxii, Of friendship . . . It is a general rule--be not deceived--that every living thing is to nothing so devoted as to its own interest. Whatever, then, appears to it to stand in the way of this interest, be it a brother, or father, or child, or loved one, or lover, the being hates, accuses, and curses it. For its nature is to love nothing so much as its own interest; this to it is father and brother and kinsmen and country and God. When, for instance, we think that the gods stand in the way of our attainment of this, we revile even them, cast their statues to the ground, and burn their temples, as Alexander ordered the temples of Asclepius to be burned when his loved one died. For this reason, if a man puts together in one scale his interest and righteousness and what is honorable and country and parents and friends, they are all safe; but if he puts his interest in one scale, and in the other friends and country and kinsmen and justice itself, all these latter are lost because they are outweighed by his interest. For where one can say "I" and "mine," to that side must the creature perforce incline; if they are in the flesh, there must the ruling power be; if they are in the moral purpose, there must it be; if they are in externals, there must it be. If, therefore, I am where my moral purpose is, then, and then only, will I be the friend and son and the father that I should be. For then this will be my interest--to keep my good faith, my self-respect, my forbearance, my abstinence, and my co-operation, and to maintain my relations with other men. But if I put what is mine on one scale, and what is honorable in the other, then the statement of Epicurus assumes strength, in which he declares that "the honorable is either nothing at all, or at best only what people hold in esteem." ==== The power to love belongs to the wise man and to him alone. Ibid. ==== O, Lord, shelter me from certain men, from demons and passions, and from any other unbecoming thing. .. Arvo Part, "Litany" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:26:42 -0500 From: jbosco at dasw dot com (John Bosco) Subject: Re: Bootlegs and Meeting Mr. Fripp From: Charles Jowett > >CJ: Some thoughts on boot legging... > >Many years ago a friend and I smuggled a tape recorder into a King Crimson >concert. The act of recording the concert severely disrupted my >appreciation of the event. I became more involved with worrying about the >tape than listening to the music (How are the levels? I wish that guy >would shut up, he's ruining my tape. Has my tape recorder been spotted by >that nasty looking roadie? I better not cheer, it'll come out on the >tape.) In short, I never became caught up in the moment. I remained >detached from the music and even the most brilliant performance would have >been lost on me. > >RF: Well done, again. > Charles, I have no idea what you did, but, I've been taping shows for over 15 years, and I can honestly say that only at one show was it a distraction (the deck died), at all other shows I enjoy myself to the fullest, and leave the show with the tape, I can re-live the moment over and over again if I choose, or if its really special, I can save the moment, and years later go back to it. But it may be easier for me to tape, I went to Dead shows for years, and they had a section for tapers, and I'm a Live Sound Audio Engineer, so taping is kind of like second nature to me, to the point that if I'm NOT taping I find it hard to enjoy the show, I get fidgety, I start thinking what kind of tape this would make, stuff like that, my wife thinks its kind of funny actually. I don't think I've done anything to the preformer, how could I, I'm sitting in the audience. I never bother the people around me, if they choose to scream and act like idiots and miss the show, who am I to stop them, I'm usally too caught up in the music to even bother with them. I've never sold a tape of anyones show, it's not right for me to make money from somebody elses work. So what harm have I done? John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:35:12 -0500 Organization: Visidyne Inc. From: Sanjay Krishnaswamy Subject: Feedback and RF postings I opine that there exists an interesting sympathy between the Soundscape a.k.a. Frippertronic loop and the current ET dialogue. Mr. Fripp and sometime collaborators Eno, Bowie etc. have a great interest (or so it seems) in the process known as _feedback_ -- no big surprise since "feedback" is both a central motif in most of the electronics with which modern musicians are at least passingly familiar and an elusive, difficult concept to grasp (in fact, Black's original attempt to patent negative feedback in amplifiers -- the brilliant insight which made the op-amp possible -- was rejected by the stodgy Brit patent office, which thought it ridiculous to intentionally reduce gain). Feedback comes in two flavors -- negative, which generally disciplines, controls, and reduces errors in fidelity -- allowing an op-amp to compensate for "crossover distortion" on a push-pull, for example, for you studio types out there -- and positive, which exaggerates, drives to hyperbole, allows a comparator to slam from rail to rail on its output swing. Mr. Fripp _et al._ appear most interested in feedback of the positive sense. This is what enables a single guitar (or a piano or something like that, if you're Tod Machover) to make a hell of a lot of noise. It also enabled David Bowie for example to incorporate other kinds of artistry -- to play with celebrity, image, public sexuality, and somehow blend these with music into one massive performance capable of rapid dextrous shift from rail to rail to rail, like a digital comparator. I personally am fascinated by this process and while I don't have the same appreciation for Soundscapes as I do for other RF music, it amazes me that a musician can play, keep his head and sensibility, when faced by a mountain of his own looped feedback. Anyway: it occurs to me that this newsletter is at the moment presenting such a mountain of feedback. Mr. Fripp appears able somehow to swim through it (or perhaps he just has more leisure time than I?) and to extract themes he finds useful or productive or anyway interesting, while at the same time maintaining the feedback loop. It's hard for me to imagine that process being useful or enlightening in any way but, I'm not Robert Fripp and lack his experience in dancing around confidently on top of (positive) feedback. This process it appears to me is central at some level to all audient/performer relationships. I mean, I don't claim to have much to add to the great tradition of thought on the relationship between artist, art, and aesthete -- I think Schoenberg's made some interesting comments on the subject in _Theory of Harmony_ and, for that matter, so have people on this list. But there is a feedback-like nature (I claim) to the performer/audient relationship which alters the form of the material (music) transmitted both through reinforcement and repression, exaggerating some aspects and diminishing others (if that isn't babbling). This process like all feedback loops is powerful and difficult to conceptualize and therefore probably occurs without our conscious involvement. However through understanding of the process I submit that it is possible for the artist to use it as part of his art, or to mitigate its effects. That is, to understand the appropriate signal to feed _in_ to the audient, to get the desired understanding _out_ -- to correct for errors in communication. And that process, as it occurs in the concert hall, may to some extent be modelled by the interaction taking place now in the newsletter, which is in this sense a scientific experiment. That is, RF can post his opinion on (say) broccoli, the readers respond, RF incorporates those responses so as to produce more, and the entire conversation becomes a model which in some sense directly reflects the musical process that occurs next time he's shredding chords at the Orpheum. Or maybe not. ____________________________________________________________________________ Sanjay Krishnaswamy sanjay at visidyne dot com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:39:16 -0500 (EST) From: Art Cohen Subject: Who gets paid (tribute) : > You also have to figure out who gets paid, and paid what. : : No one gets paid, at least not in my mind, unless that is what's needed : to re-arrange Crimson's music. I'd be volunteering my time. I don't want : to make a profit off of this. If you release a cover version of somebody else's composition, you have to pay the songwriter, whether it's a "commercial" release or not. --Art National Ska/Reggae Calendar: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/calendar.html Boston Ska Home Page: www.ziplink.net/~upsetter/ska/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:14:34 -0500 (EST) From: KRosser414 at aol dot com Subject: Re: Elephant Talk Digest #350 >Ken had stated: >>2) What is it about English guitar players from the sixties? It seems as >> though McLaughlin, Holdsworth, Summers, Fripp, Howe, undoubtedly a few more >>obvious ones I'm forgetting, and the shadow they've cast on music in the >>60's, 70's, 80's and 90's is huge. I'm interested in what RF's perspective >>on this phenomenon might be - was it something in the culture, the media, >>the marketplace, what have you? Is there a common factor other than >>national that you all share? >Doug responded (and yes, I know I'm no Robert Fripp): >First of all, your statement seems to say that no modern guitarists have >had the same impact. I suggest we wait a few decades before making that >assumption. I don't think I was seeming to say that at all. I'm well aware great music comes from all over the planet and continues to do so now. I just wanted to inquire about the nature of one specific. As a professional guitar player and amateur guitar historian, when I see the huge number of influential players that began their careers in one geographic location in a roughly five to six year period of time, my curiosity is aroused as to what forces may underlie such fecundity. I've met a few players on that list but have never felt the opportunity was right to ask about it. Since RF reads this, this seemed like an innocuous enough way of asking someone who was there and making no other demand on RF's space than that which he brings on himself by reading ET in the first place. I've heard a similar questioon asked of John McLaughlin and his joking response was "It must have been something in the water". Perhaps it's not a serious question. But it is something I'm curious about. For instance, I've always had a hunch the sudden unexpected global success of the Beatles in the early 60's focused a laser beam of commercial attention on England in that period, enabling many to be heard that may have otherwise gone unjustly ignored. But I suspect there's more than that - for instance, I've heard many on that list (+Richie Blackmore and Steve Hackett, who I left off) talk about the influence of Hank Marvin, who I think was not really very influential in America. And what of the fascination with American blues by many English guitarists of that period? And so on. But, there's the question and intention, free to be ignored or commented upon by RF or anyone else. Ken R ------------------------------ End of Elephant-Talk Digest #351 ********************************